Transcripts of meetings, 1977-1981, v. 18. Select Committee

STATE OF GEORGIA SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION
Transcripts of Meetings 1977-1981

COMMITTEE MEMBERS
GEORGE BUSBEE GOVERNOR CHAIRMAN
ZELL MILLER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR
THOMAS B MURPHY SPEAKER. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ROBERT H. JORDAN CHIEF JUSTICE. SUPREME COURT
J. KELLEY QUILLIAN CHIEF JUDGE. COURT OF APPEALS
MICHAEL J. BOWERS ATTORNEY GENERAL
MARCUS B. CALHOUN SENIOR JUDGE. SUPERIOR COURTS

SELECT COMMITTEE ON
CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION
ROOM 23H 47 TRINITY AVENUE ATLANTA. GEORGIA 30334
4()46f:>67158

COMMITTEES MEMBERS
AL HOLLOWAY SENATE PRESIDENT PRO TEMPORE
JACK CONNELL SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE
ROY E BARNES CHAIRMAN. SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
WAYNE SNOW. JR CHAIRMAN. HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
FRANK H. EDWARDS SPECIAL COUNSEL
J. ROBIN HARRIS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
MELVIN B HILL JR. ASSISTANT EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

MEETINGS HELD ON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION

SELECT COMMITTEE

COMMITTEE
Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee

DATE

# OF PAGES

, May 2 ;~:-) 1977

6

July 6, 1977

4

November 29, 1977

41

January 4, 1978

56

February 15, 1978

33

July 11, 1979

25

December 17, 1979

223

January 9, 1980

82

June 30, 1980

26

SELECT COMMI TTEE ON CONST! TUT! ONAL REV I SI ON Meeting Held May 25, 1977
The meeting was called to order by the Chairman, Governor George Busbee. Members present were' Governor George Busbee; Lieutenant Governor Zell Miller; Speaker Thomas B. Murphy; Chief Justice H. E. Nichols; Chief Judge John Sammons Bell; Attorney General Arthur Bolton; Judge Marcus Calhoun; Senator Al Holloway; and Representative Wayne Snow. Also present were LegisLative Counsel Frank H. Edwards and Bill Harper, Executive Counsel to the Governor.
The Chairman noted that a committee of three had been previously appointed to present recommendations for an Executive Director. He stated that the committee recommended Martin (;-"arty) Hodgkins, Jr., who is 30 years of age and married. Marty worked for more than four years with the Council of State Governments and served a 20-month tour in the U. S. Army. He is extremely familiar with the rewriting of constitutions in Louisiana and Texas and provided assistance to the constitutional revision staffs in those states. He returned to school to get a Master's Degree at Florida State University and finishes June 10 and would be able to begin to work shortly thereafter. The Chairman stated that a salary of $20,000 had been discussed, with the idea that the committee is going to be of long duration. This figure would be a beginning s.alary wi th no other commitment at this time. A motion was made that the Select Committee elect Marty Hodgkins as its Executive Director at the salary recommended. The motion was unanimously adopted.
A discussion was then held concerning office space for the central staff. A motion had been made at the last meeting

that the Chai rman would a ttempt to find space on Capi tol Hi!l. Bill Harper stated that he had talked with Lee Marshall of the Georgia Building Authority to determine what space might be available. Mr. Marshall related that the only vacant space anywhere near the Capitol is the three rooms on the fifth floor of 7 M. L. King, Jr. Drive. The rooms are assigned to the State Properties Commission, but because the commission is h.aving problems with getting additional positions authorized, they are not able to use them now and will not be able to use them until this problem is solved. They are willing to let the Select Committee use these three rooms if they can be assured that some additional space will be made available to them as their perso.nnel problem is worked out. They have 468 square feet, which is two private offices and one large outer office that could be used by two secretaries. Mr. Harper stated that in talking with frank Edwards, it was thought this would more than likely be .adequate space for this purpose for at least the next year.
The Chairman stated he would have to work this out with the Properties Commission, and a motion was adopted to the effect that the Chairman find the space for the Executive Director on a temporary basis. Speaker Murphy stated that the committee's staff could use legislative commi ttee sp.ace for a temporary location until the Chairman finds more permanent space.
The next item on the agenda was the membership of the articles committees. It was noted that the expenses would be paid out of legi slati ve funds. Representati ve Wayne Snow p.assed out a list of 20 names for possible membership on the Judiciary Article Committee. The list 1ncludedl the three deans of the three major state law schools or their designeel Judge Marcus
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Calhoun representing the Superior Court Judges; Chief Justice Nichols; Chief Judge Bell; the President of the Younger Lawyers Section of the State Bar of Georgia; the President of the State Bar of Georgia or his designee; a representative from a grand jury association (the most active in the State is Fulton County); the President of the Georgia Chamber of Commerce or his designee; the President of the Georgia Press Association or his designee; the President of the Georgia League of Women Voters or her designee; a representative of l~bor (Representative Snow suggested Harry Bexley, Business Manager, Local 613, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers); Hepresentative Albert Thompson, Chairman of the House Special Judiciary Commi ttee; Senator Howard Overby, Chai rman of the Senate Judiciary Committee; Robin Harris, who has worked a great deal on constitutional revision in the past; Robert Stubbs from the Attorney General's office; the President of the Prosecuting Attorneys Association or his designee; Judge Sidney Smith, who is Chairman of the State Bar committee working with constitutional revision; and Representative W.ayne Snow. Representative Snow stated that this list of names was just a recommendation.
Chief Justice Nichols asked if Judge Sidney Smith would be a representative of the Judicial Councilor a representative of the State Bar.
Flepresentative Snow stated that Judge Smith is presently chairman of a committee of the State Bar, of which Hepresentative Snow isa member, and that this committee will be working separately on judicial article. Representative Snow stated he felt this represented a cross section of the population in this State.
Senator Holloway stated he was leaning toward having two
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committees, since Article X (Retirement and Scholarships) is essentially two different subject matters. He will have an Article Committee composed of two committees. He felt that 14 was about the number he would need for his Retirement Committee' one representative each from the business community; labor community; League of Women Voters; Teachers J Retirement System; nonacademic teachers and state employees; firemen, judges, sheriffs, clerks (one representative from this group); five members from the legislature, primarily the Education Committee and the committees involved in this area of law; governmental agencies; Meri t System; and one retired person. Senator Holloway stated it was not his intention to confirm any memberJs appointment until every name had been submitted to the Select Commi ttee. The Scholarship Commi ttee would be composed of about the same number of members. Senator Holloway would serve as chairman of both committees.
Arthur Bol ton, Chai rman of the Arti cle II (Electi ve Franchise), stated he had thought tentatively about two members from the House; two members from the Senate; saneone from the Secretary of State1s office who is familiar with elections; League of Women Voters; Georgia Municipal Association; County Commissioners Association; a judge of the probate court; ,a representative from labor; and a representative from the State Chamber of Commerce. In addition to himself, this would be about 12 members serving on the committee.
The question was raised that if it is inconvenient for a member of an Article Committee who is representing an organization to attend a particular meeting, is it in order for a designee of the committee member to attend in his absence. Mr. Edwards suggested that the Select Committee should decide whether
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the designee would be allowed to vote for the committee member. A motion was passed that a representative for a committee member who is representing an organization would be allowed to vote.
A motion was made and adopted that the chairmen of the articles committees would designate the person of a parti cular organization to serve as a member of each committee.
A motion was adopted that the membership of the article committees would be approved by the Select Committee. The Chairman of each article committee is to mail a list of the names that he recommends for membership on his committee to the Select Committee. If there are any objections by the members of the Select Committee, those objections should be transmitted to the Chairman or to Bill Harper. If there are no objections received within five days, those persons will serve as members on the article committee.
Senator Holloway stated that he would like some guidance as to who to use from a legal standpoint. There was some discussion concerning this, and Mr. Edwards stated that he had planned to have someone from the Office of Legislative Counsel attend the meetings of the articles committees. He stated that he had not thought about devoting somebody from his staff to work full time wi th the articles commi ttees. Marty Hodgkins suggested that experience dictate the size and composition of the permanent staff. A motion was adopted that Mr. Hodgkins report back to the Select Committee as to recommendations for the staffing of the Select Committee. He is to confer with the chairmen of the articles committees to see what their needs are.
The last item on the agenda related to a timetable for the completion of the work on the articles. Of course, the articles are to be submitted to the legislature in January of
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1978. Looking at the middle of June when Mr. Hodgkins will come to work and projecting from that point on, the Select Committee should have the articles well in advance of the next legislative session. It was suggested that the various Articles Committees present their proposals to the Select Committee by November I, 1977. This would provide adequate time for the Select Committee to review the proposed articles. The Chairman stated that he has 24 days in November already scheduled, and it would be of major assistance if the articles were submitted to the Select Committee by October I, 1977. A motion was made and adopted to that effect.
There being no further business to bring before the Select Committee, the Chairman declared the meeting adjourned.
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INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision
Select Committee Meeting Held on May 25, 1977
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SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 5-25-77 (Procedural)

SELECT COMM1 HEEON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION Meeting Held July 6, 1977
The meeting WaS called to order by the Chairman, Governor Georg8 Busbee. Members prescnt were: Governor George Busbee; Speaker Thomas B. Murphy; Ben G. Estes, Law Assistant,
representing Chief Justice H. E. Nichols; Jud'..J e JulIan Webb
representing Chief Judge John Sammons Bell; Attorney General Arthur Bolton; JUdge ,\iarcus Calhoun; ~;enator Al HolJo"li1y; Senator Howard Overby; Jleprcsentative Jack Connell and herre,;entati VB Vwyne Snail. Also present were Chief IJeputy Le9isliJtive Counsel Charlie Tid,'lell and Cary Bond, Legislative Fi'ical OUicer, and Executive Director of the Select Committee, Martin Hodgkins.
Minutc~; of the meeting held on ;'!.dy 25, 1977, wen) paS;icd
out to members ot the Select Committee, Bnd a motion was epproved
that the Corm"i tte') dispense with the reading of thG Ir.inlltes. The Comrni ttee then heard reports from the ChAin:18n or
the Articles Committees. Attorney General Arthur Galton, Chai rlTle;n of the E1e c ti V8 frunchi se Ar ti cl e Commi t tee ro par to d that hi~; Commi tt8C had met and would have Bnpther rn'~eting on July 7. He stated he hoped to get into ho'.'! the Commi ttee \'!anted to approach redrafting this Article. Thc Elective Franchise Article CO!'I;nittee plans to meet each Thursday, and Mr. Bolton stated he felt five meetings would be sufficient for this Committee.
Representative Wayne Snow, ChairmDn of tha Judiciary Article Committee stated that his Cownittee will meet Monday, July II. He is interested in the three law school::;--ot takinq advantDge of their expertise, and will study the 1964 revision as well as the 1968 reVision. lie stated that hopefully his Committee would be in real good shape by the end of this summer.

Senator Al Holloway, Chairman of the Retirement and Scholarships Article Committee, reported that his Committee had met on July 6. He stated at first he thought of having two committees--one for Retirement and one for Scholarships, but he thought one committee would be able to work in both of thesc areas. His Committee ~li.l1 work ~Iith the retirement portion of Article X and then work with the Scholarships section. l~e Committee has set up rules regarding a quorum, etc. No person substituting for a member at the Committee will be allowed to vote on the final adoption. He stated that tho Co~mittec discussed the expenses und he thought the legislature did not intend to cover the S36.00 per day tor the state employees on tho
Commi tte e. Attorney General Arthur f301 ton stated rw could gi. VB
him an opini.on on that, I'lhich Vias no. The lletirement Bnd Scholarships I\rticle Coromi ttee plans to meet each ~iednesdi1Y.
The Chairman statt)d that the ~)elect Comflli Use, at its last loeeting, hed asked Murty Hodgkins, Executive Oil-ector, to make some staff recommendations. A memorandum including this was given to each member of the Select Corr~ittee. The Select Commi ttee agreed wi til 1,lr. Hod9kin~'" recommendations except it \'las fel t that the range at salary ot the secretary/admini strati ve assistant was too low. !'.tter' discussion, a motion was made that the salary should range tram S8,OOO to S)) ,000. The motion was adopted.
The next item on the agenda was supplemental legislation. Senator Holloway stated he thought it would be a better process to let the indiVidual committees be ever mindful at that area. Anything that is going to be changed to statutory will be in the recommendations to the Select Committee.
The Select Committee then discussed transcripts at the
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proceedings of the Commi ttees. The transcripts of the 1945 Consti tution -Bre in two volumes. The Chairman sLated that the cost would be about $2.00 per page with a guarantee at $50.00. Speaker Thomas Murphy stated that for public hearings the Committees could use the House Appropriations Committee room and everything could be recorded in that room. It was noted that the record of the 1945 Constitution had been used in -8 case in the Supreme Court. A motion was npproved that a transcript be made at all public hearings, -8S well as the deliberations by the Select Commi tt.ee of the recommendations of the three Articles Camilli ttees. Charlie Tidvlell mentioned that he was concerned about thi s due to the fact that sometimes the anI y source of intc'rpretinc) trw ConstItution is the transcripts of the proc~eding5 of the CODmittee~. He felt that ench meeting could be recorded; it doesn1t necessarily have to be transcribed. A IllOti on \iJS made to recon~;ider the previousi::ction dnd have all 1!leetin(js recor(i0~d. The motion was adopted.
The Select Committee discussed the Suggested Rules of Procedure prepared by Marty Hodgkins. I t was dec ided that ,a m:ljority vote of anything about the Constitution would require six affirmative votes.
l~e approval of vouchers was discussed. It was stated that since th<; expenses corne out of legislati ve funds, someone in the House and Senate has to approve them. In the final analysis Ci1ry Bond must haVe some instruction as to haw he pays the expenses. Perhaps the easiest way would be to handle it through the Executive Director's statf with either the Speaker or the Lieutenant Governor countersigning the vouchers. A motion was adopted to this effect.
Marty Hodgkins brought up the question of who would
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approve his travel expenses since he could not approve them. It was decided that the Speaker or the Lieutenant Governor or their designee could approve those expenses.
There being no further business I the loeeting ~!iJS adjourned.
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INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision
Select Committee Meeting Held on July 6, 1977

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 7-6-77 (Procedural)

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STATE OF GEORGIA

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Proceedings of th~ Meeting of the Select Committee on Constitutional Revision, held on November 29, 1977, at 3:00 o'clock, p.rn" in the Officer of the Governor at the State Capitol, Atlanta, Georgia, and presided over by Governor Busbee.

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BRANDENBURG & I-IASTY

SCIENTIFIC REPORTING

37D COLONIAL TRAIL, DOUGLASVILLE, GEORGIA 30135

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942-0482

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DEPOSITIONS - ARBITRAnONS - CONVENTIONS - CONFERENCES

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PRO C E E DIN G S

2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

The meeting will come to order. You have had passed
to you the minutes of the meeting ot July 6th. I'll en-

terta!n a motion.

SEll. OVS RBY :
Move it be adoptert.

8 GOVFPNOR BUSBEE:

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All right. It's been moved. Is there a second/

10 JUSTICF NICHOLS:

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Secon';.

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Any objectiol'?

If not, the Minutes st~nd approved.

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T'I" first r~.nort from one of the ArticJe's study C'ommittpe w i l l h eon i\ r tic 1(' I I ... - I~ r. Be), t 0 tI
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Governor, I had previously m~iled each one of you--

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That's under Tab C, I thin~:J i s your "f~ po r t., i s n ' t

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Risht.

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GOVfR,-)nn PUSBEE:

The letter's d~tpd 0r~obpr 6th.

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Right. It follows your propoge~ Article 11- your

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i0tter of October ') th .

MR. BOLTO}~:

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hnd I also included in that explanatio~ of why the

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Co~wittee, so far as we could recall--why th0 Committee

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had made these changes. And other than that--I m~an, this

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is a first for me. I don't know how the Comnitee want me

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do discuss it or what they want us to do.

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how to prepare for the meeting today.

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GOVE'PNOl:1 BUSBEE:

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can we do this,? I don't--most of you--I don't know

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whether you have your Constitutions with you. But on the differences in the Article--while you'rA reading, we can just take this an Article at the time if you want. Rut I --the only things you've done as far as the first ~dragrap is concerned. is yc)u've inserterl the wordS "secret ballots,
which is the law now where it s~ys in the present Constitu 1
tion, "E~.ect.ion by the people shall he by hallot and only those persons shall be allowed to vote who have been first registered in accordance with the requir~ments of

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law. " And you've put "shall he conducted in accordance

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with procedures established by law." That's mainly a word

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jog change, r think.

I 22 MR. BOLTON:

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\\1 e l l , t hat. 's rig h t .

The wording was to follow the

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" '? S t d h 1 she d b Y 1 a w .. a s a p pea l' S J I t h ink, e 1 sew h t' r e i n t h a t

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same Art i c If.~--" procedure s established by law. " Do you

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_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _._. .._....J

want to go over on an Article by Article--

PAGE <1
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2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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I just wondered--I think all of us have read this.

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Are there any questions concernin0s any of the changeB

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that have been made?

6 MR. BOI.T('I'N;

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The last page is change that we think might be necessary because of this proposed Article. That's the last page under C.

10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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Before you--could I

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12 ~ MR .. BOLTON;

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Certainly.

interrupt you

just a

minute?

14 ~ GOVE R~O R BUSBEE:

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I think all of you will know this, but as far as the Article is concer.ned, Arthur has about six--about .f."~ ve pages there explaining the changes in the proposed

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Article and it's an outline there of it. And you mi']ht

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want to scan that. But go ahead with your statute changes

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Now, you're on the ~Recommended Changes to State and Muni-

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cipal Election Codes as a Result of Revision of Article II "

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as you have proposed it now?

M:<. nOL'l'O;'1:

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Yes. "In the case of an election, the superintendent

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shall make the return of the election as follows;

PAGE 5

to he filed with the governing authority of the municipal-

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ity" .. -this -",auld he a tuatutory shange--"one copy to be

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filerl with the secretary of State, together with a copy of

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the numbered list of voters of each election district, at

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the same time such returns are filed with the governing

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authority of t.he municipality." And I'll ask y'all to

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correct me if I'm wrong. Now, municipalities are not re-

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~uired to make returns to the Secretary of state or to any

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office. And this would--the new constitutional provision

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would require that; is that correct? PRATT:
Yes. BOLTON:
So this would make the statute conform to the proposed change in the Constitution. In other words, municipal elections would now be returned to the Secretary of state as well as your State and county elections. They

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are not returned now.

19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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And then you have the addition to the municipal elec-

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tion code.

22 MR. BOLTON:

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"In the case of r~ferenduln elections provided for by

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act of the General Assembly, the superintendent shall

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transmit immediately to the Secretary of State a copy of ,

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the cert.ified returns of such elections, th.~ official

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and A copy of the numbered list of voters of each election

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district."

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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This is uniform r~porting for municipal elections

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and i t all comes into the Secretary of State. Eve ry th in Cj ,

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out of the Constitution and it's in statute and it's uni-

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fa rtn.

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BOLTON: Well, now, too, the Constitution provides that the
legislature should provide for who the returns should be made to. By a close vote, this Committee removed--if that's the proper word--or designated th~ Secretary of
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State as the person to whom all election returns should be! made . So that's--the statute woul~ then conform with the new provision of the Constitution. As a matter of fact,

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the statute now says secretary of State. nut under the

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present Constitution, the legislature could change that.

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If this proposal is adopted, it would be in the Consitu-

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tion. If the Article is adopted, it would be vested in

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the Secretary of State and it couldn't be moved out.

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GOVE RNOR iWSBF.E:

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You have two other provisions there dbout the State

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Election Code. One is 34h-910 and one is Section 34-1010.

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PAGE 7

MP. BOVrON:

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Right. ~\lmber 2(g). "~ny candidate" seeking nomina-

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tinn for public office by ncminR~ion petition shall be a

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registered voter eligible to vote in the election in which

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he is a candidate."

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Jim, isn't that--there was no requirement that it be-

7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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That's a new provision.

9 HR. PRATT:

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There was different language and it pretty much added

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up to that. There was various requirements about being an

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elector and being this and that. But the language that's

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been recommended accomplishes substantially the same purposes but ~t's more economical .

15 .) GOVER~WP PUSBEE:

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All right .

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17 ~MR. BOLTON:

You have Section 34-1010.

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(h) was "Any candidate seeking nomination for public

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office by nomination petition shall be a registered voter

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eligible to vote in the election in which he is a candid-

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ate. "

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Now, the section (h) there--this is a writein--thp.

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D0mination petition. We revmoed--the Committee voted to

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remove the write-in provision from the old--from thA pre-

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sent Constitution and to provide for it in the ~onstitutio~,

PAGE 8

but to leave tIle details of it to the--to statutory ,'lnd

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that's exactly ~h~t this.

3 GOVRRNOR FlUSBEF.;

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That'~ number four.

5 MR. BOLTON;

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That's r:irJht.

7 GOVERL~OR BUSBEE;

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Any questions on any of that? Then, there's two

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paragraph--rather, two sections in that provision.

10 MR. BOLTON:

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That was a11--a11 the recommendations we had. Now, I want to say to this Committe, WI'! 're still studyinl] this thing and it might he possible that we could conceivably

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come up with some other recommendations between now and

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the time the General Assembly meets.

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16 ~ID GOVF. RNOR BUSBEE:

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r think we'll hold that op~n. If we can--we'll call

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the Select Committee if any member makes a requ~st. We

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can give a special call. If we can--we're going to have

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some other items. When we get through with the Articles

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themselves and with the statutory changes, we're going to

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have some procedural matters that we need to go on anct tak

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up now because there's only five weeks before the legl51a-

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ture meet!'!.

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All right. Is there any questions concerning any of _~

PAGE 9

the proposed changes in the Constitution on the Articlo or

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on the statutory changes that's being proposed?

3 JUDGE CALHOUN:

I notice one difference in the Article and in the

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explanation. Paragraph II says a person convicted of a

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crime--

7 GOVE F.NOR BUS BEE:

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You're back now on--

9 JUDGE CALHOUN:

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Back to the Article, right. A person convicted of a crime shall be eligible to vote after he completes his sentence. Then in the other person, a person convicted of a crime is not eligible to hold office until he's pardoned ~ftrthe explanation, Arthur, you say if he completes his sentence, all of his civil rights ought to be restored automatically. BOLTON:

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That was the feeling of the Committee.

19 JUDGE CALHOUN:

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But you're not restoring nlS right to hold office.

21 ~1R. BOLTON:

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Well, there's a rlifference--no--Jim, correct me if

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I'm wrong--there's a difference between the right to hold

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office--they felt that the right to vote was a more sub--

Off~C_~_~ ~\~~_~ 25 ______st.antial right than the right to hold

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ex=-_._j

PAGE 10

pressing it correctly--what they said]

2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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Well. I think--did you--

4 MR. BOLTON:

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Everyone has the right to vote.

6 GOVERNOR BUSBE;:;:

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What they have outlined on their explanation of this

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change is on page three of the explanation where it says

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"Substantive Changes" down at the bottom of the page and

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they go on and state "The present Article"--who it (liB-

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enfranchises. Then. on the page four. go~s on "The proposed Article disenfranchises criminals as follows"--and then they go on and say that "The substitution is designed

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to accomplish five things: "--and they list (a). (b). (c).

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(d) and (e). And then they--I think that's the explanation of what you're talking about if you've read it.

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17 : JUDGE CALHOUN:

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Right. It is. I don't question this may be the way

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it ought to be. but I--there is a difference there.

20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

21

It's a substantial change.

22 JUDGE CALHOUN:

23

I'm not sure there oughtn't to be a pardon in both

24

cases.

25 MR. BOLTON:

-

PAGE 11

well, their feeling was--the way it was discussed by

2

this COMmittee--their feeling was that, as a practical

3

matter, when a person presents himself to vote that a per-I

4

son in Spaulrlinry--my county--if h~ moved there from Hall \

S

County, they had no way in the world to know whether that

6

m~n uas--had been incarcerated O~ not. And as a practical

7

mattnr, it was honored more in the lack of enforcement

8

than it was enforcement. That pertains to being in pri-

9

son. And the idea was discussed the the man can go in the

10
..CzI
11 i=
o......
12 ~
@r~ 14 ..>...-. -( :z: .. 1S .:. CI ::> 16 ~ Q z -( 17 ~
18

theater and sit down l"ith you and eat at the table wit.h you in the restaurant and do anything else, so why should you deprive hiM of the right to vote.
I agree. T agree I recently had a case--was trying a ca3~--presiding in a case in Brooks County and ~ualifyin'] the jury. And one questions you ask, you ask if a',~ybody has any reason tn know why he shouldn't serve on ttisl
I term < One man stood up and I said, "Yes, sir, ..,that's your

19

name? Give me your name and your reason." He told mEO his

20

name and sait'l, "I just was released from Reidsville." So

21

He wanted to be excuse~. T 11 iJ t ',,; a r. 0 the r

22

civil right--to ::;erve on a jury.

23 r,m. ROLTON;

24

I'd really like for the~ to lonk this over. I'n not

2S

trying to--I'd like for them to look this over and have a___-JI:

PAGE 1:' ------ ---------.--
subsequent meeting before W~ pass this on and let them try

2

to ask any questions that--that they felt like. I don't

3

feel like that they've hnd a chance to look at this thing.

4

I'm not trying to suggest procedure o~ how ~e should

S

handl~ i t . T just say, this is C' iirs,:.. T don't kno',IT.

6 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

7

We're going to probably have to lli'l.V8 i'lJ1otiJPr mn~t.in(j

8

anyway. But if we could go on an~ hear from AI's Commit-

!

9

tee and WR,ne's, then we could get these procedural things!

10
"z
11 t-
..oo..<..
12 0<
@r! HR.

in motion. You'll have an opportunity to review it and
1. fan y bod Y ,1 e sir e s t0 h e h ear don it, \'r e '11 h a v i" an 0 t 11 e l'
Meeting. BOLTON:

14 >-
!;;

r want the Committee to know that this is the Commit-

:~r

15 0)

tee I S \-lork. I presided at the meetings.

"0<
::>

16 .~.. GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Q

Z

~

17 :

I think it does an excellent job of explaining your

18

re asoni ng. It's a question of wh~ther you concur with

19

their reasoning or not. They state their reasons--five

20

reasons.

21 REP. SNOW:

I

I

22

r Coul~n't we go ahead and t~ntatively adopt i t , thoufjh

23

and then if there are ~uestions that come up, then '.:e

I

24

could come back on that? I mov;:! tha t we i'ldopt the recom- j

2S

mendations.

i

!

I

.---

1

JUDGt~ SHITH:

PAGE 13
--____-__---1

2

I second it.

3 GOVPRNOR BUSBEE:

4

There's been a motion made ann seconded. Is there

5

(liscussion?

6 HR. BOLTON:

7

Tentatively adopt it.

8

MR. SNO\I~:

9

Tentatively adopt it.

10

GOVE RNOR BUSBEE:

z"
11 ;:
@;;..'o"....

All right. When you say tentatively, let me define tentatively and discussion on the motion that's been made and seconded. If any memeber of the Select Committee asks

! 14 .~.. %
15 0)
"'"::>
16 ~
o
Z
17 :

to be heard on this, I will call a meeting of the COMmittee; otherwise, I will not. Now--any one Committee membe r.
All right. Is there any furtn\er discussion? If not,

18

all those in favor say aye. (A chor~s of ayes.] All

19

opposed? [No re sponse ] It's unani~ously adopted.

I

20

All right. The next is the report on the JUdicial,

21

Wayne Snow, Chairman.

22 REP. S~OW:

:

I

I

23

Governor, members of the Committee, we have met for II

I

24

the past several months and we've had one public hearing. I

I

25

And at the time of the public hearing as well as the amount,

._----~--------------------_._----

PAGE--1-4-------l
of mail and confusion that existed among many members of

2

the B~r and many of the courts of our State, that we cer-

3

tainly felt that we should hear more--additional informa-

4
S
6
7
8
9
10 CzI
II i=
@;;'..o".... ! 14 ...... <l :I: IS 0:1 CI '":;) 16 ~... Qz 17 ~

tion fto8--that people should have an opportunity to have
, \ I-

more

input -into

itl:hi'll

'::hAjI've .had,

re-alizin<]

t\,; .Judicia
.~'

ArticlE! ane'! the proposed r;lan'gel=: that ii;'e c:,',; llg to be mac).'

,
in it, [probably are more controverisal than dny
i
Articl~ that we can deal with, we felt that we $hou~J nave II

I ! t
i at lea~t a continuance of one year to con~inue th~ work of

I

i

I

the Co~mittee. We're asking this select Committee to alloJ

~ontinu. us to

for an additLonal year before we have to

I

make a Ireport and we feel, in that time, that we will have I

been able to have additional public hearings throughout

the state and will be able to better explain the changes

that are contemplated in the Article and you have copies

of our report. That's primarily what we're doing--asking

for--is asking for additional time. We feel strongly that

18

it's necessary, that there is considerable interest among

19

many of the courts of the State as to the recommendations

20

that have been tentative thus far. And we--we're asking

21

this Committee to give us an extension.

22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
!

23

I Let me make a statement and see if Frank and Charlip

24

and others agree with me. My understanding is that the

I

2S

Select Committee is a permanent standing committee.

I
\'le ----~I

I

PAGE 15

will meet every year and organize into subcommittees on

2

various Articles. So what the request of your Committee

3

is that you're not--you think this Article should be

4

studied further and the Select Committee should have fur-

5

ther study made on it before it's being taken for vote?

6 REP. SNOW:

7

If the Article's going to pass; Governor; it's got

8

be stuled further.

9 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

-

10

All right. But then it will be up to the Select Com-

.Czl
11 i=

mittee to name another committee--Articles Committee to

.2..

@;~ make the-REP. SNOW:

! 14 ..:..r..

We're asking that we be rename. We feel like we're

15 ~

deep enough into it that it would be foolish to proceed

~

;;)

16 .~..

with any--

Qz

-

17 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

18

well, the only thing that stands from year to year is

19

the Select Committee, which is a statutory committee;

20

which you're on. Judge?

21 JUSTIC~; NICHOLS:

22

I want to make this statement bearing out--in support

23

of what Wayne has said. Elmo Holt, who is the President

24

or Chairman of the Superior Court Judges' Council called I

25

me and said--h~ told me that--to quote him on this. He ~

PAGE 16

l
said, "I--we're not against the JUdicial Article as pre- i

i

2

santed. But we do feel like that we ought to have more

3

time to study it and have more input into it before we

4

actually agree to it." He said, "We're not opposed to it

5

and we don't want to be quoted as saying we're opposed to

6

it." He said, "We may wind up agreeing with it in toto,

7

but we do want to have a little time to study it for the

8

purpose of having a little more in put in it." I told him

9

that I'd make that statement to this Committee.

10 REP.
zCl
11 j:
..'o"....
12 '"
@rl

SNOW: Governor, I think
Some additional public STate.

It'Q essential, too, that we hav0 hearinqs in other areas of the

14 >- GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

t;

~ :z:

15 .:.

Well, from what I've heard about the State, this has

"'";:)

16 ~...

been promulgated and people will be able to read it and

D

-Zc

17 :;

as another committee starts on this--Articles committee

18

starts on it next year, you can start from it at this

19

point. Any other questions concerning--

20 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

21

I move that we agree to grant the Committee the ex-

22

tension they--

23 MR. BOLTON:

24

I second it.

25 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

_J

PAGE 17

All right. Is there any objec--all those in (avor

2

say aye. [A chorus of ayes.] All opposed.? [No response.

3

It's adopted.

4

Okay. Then the next will be Senator's Holloway's

S

Committee with regard to revising the Scholarship Article.

6 SEN. HOLLOWAY~

7

Well, Governor, the packet contained in file folders

8

passed out to members of the Committee has got our report

9

on the Article revision, which is rather lengthy. We

10
I.' Z
11 i=
@;;'..o".... .! 14 .~.. :I: 15 ~ I.' '":;) .. 16 ~.oz.. 17 :
18

have prooeeded with the ~ewriting of this Article on the basis of, number one, we had to awful careful to only consider those things that were germane to the language within the Constitution. We could have gotten into all kinds of area~ in retirement and pension systems that were actually statutory in nature. So we had to very careful in our Committee's consideration not to just gather out anybody that got over in the area that was a statutory con sideration. What we have done is put together a document

-.

19

that, number one, eliminates the further necessity for

20

local constitutional amendments. We--you will see that

21

included, not only is an explanation of the approach the

22

Committee made in the revision, but also the actual resolu

23

tions which have been drawn and which we hope will meet

24

with the approval of the Committee and, hopefully, intro-

2S

once i.n January. Included in that resolution is--there

PAGE 18 r r - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------_.-- --- .---
were above seven areas, I think, in other Articles of the

2

Constitution that still touched on the Article we were

3

attacking. Now, the only time we went to another ~rticle

4

was when it did conflict with what we were Going in Arti-

5

cle X. We have amended some of those ArticluF as the bill

6

will show and we have eliminated some. Ke also have a re-

7

peal clause eliminating, I think it's about nin~ constit~-

8

tional--local constitutional amendments. And I might say i

9

that we have, one a one-on-one basis, talked with each

10 zCI
11 ..jo..:..
@;i ! 14 ~ '~" :r 15 ~ ":;) 16 .~.. Dz 17 ~
18
19

county involved and, as far as we ~now, we have been able to explain what we were doing and why we were doing it, to the satisfaction of whatever political entity was Involved here.
We've also prepared two bills which we propose to introduce simultaneously--one creating by statute the medical scholarship which, as ou know, we are removing from the Constitution itself. The other bill creates the Regents' University System to grant certain scholarships. As far as we can tell, they're the only two entities that

20

are involved in the granting of scholarships that we have

21

affected hy our actions.

22

I think Harvey Findley did a masterful job!n liaison

23

ing this thing for Frank's office. And, Harvey, I'd like

24

for you to make some observations that you think might he

25

of interest to the Committee.

PAGE 19

MR. FINDLEY:

I
i

2

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You've covered most of the I

3

major points. The eff~ct of it is to eliminate a great

4

deal of language, particuarly on the educational assis-

-

5

tance programs from the Constitution. It was the Commit-

6

tee's feeling that those programs were really statutory in

7

nature. The medical scholarship provision is a good exam-

8

pIe because it goes on through several pages in the Con-

9

stitution and is strictly statutory. And that's removed

10
..,
..z
11 ~
.o.....
~ 12 ~
~r~ l 14 .~ .. :z: ..15 ..:., :;)
16 ~ 1M Q Z
17 :SEN.

from the constitution and language is substituted with very broad authority so that the Constitution will not inhibit educational assistance programs. Essentially the same approach was taken on retirement so that the Constitution will not inhibit public-supported retirement systems. but the retirement systems themselve~ will be controlled by statute as opposed to the Constitution. HOLLOWAY:

18

Touch on the Fulton County situation.

19 MR. FINDLEY:

20

For Fulton County. as the Chairman pointed outj there I

21

was an effort made to try to remove the necessity for

I

22

local constitutional amendment and there was thirteen

I

23

amendments altogether that were specifically repealed by I

I

24

it--twelve of them were strictly local and one was by pop-I

I

25

I ulation. And we did check with every governing body in-

.

----i

PAGE 20

"1

volved and we have letters in the file from mo~t of them
I

2

and SOme of them were telephone conversations as follow- I

3

up. And as far as we can determine. there's no problem i

I

4

with the repeal of these local amendments because the Con-

5

stitution will grant directly the authority provided by

6
7
8
9
10 \z:1
11 i=
e-:;'2.".. ! 14 ~ '" :I: 15 011 "'";:) 16 .~.. zIII 17 ~

those local constitutional amendments in the form of home I rule and kind of a broadened and expanded homE'_ rule has I

made those local constitutional amendments necessary.

I

count~ The problem in Fulton County--there's a Fulton

Teachers Retirement System or School Board Employees'

II

I

I Retirement System that's funded from county funds that is

I" unique in the State. There's no other situation like it.

While we have a few local retirement systems coverning

school people, none of thorn are funded from thA general

funds of the county. That was done pursuant to a local--

1939 local constitutional amendment. So t.o gran thorne

rule under that particular set of circumstances presented

18

a problem that we'd have to get a fairly lengthy provision

19

in Article VIII to deal with that. That's the reason for

20

it in there . But the net result is a much--a great deal

21

of constitutional langu~ge has been eliminaterl for what

22

will amount to a couple of pages that will deal with the

23

whole subject of both retirement and educational scholar-

24

ships. Everything will be controlled by statute.

25 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

2
3
4 5
6
7
8 9
10
"z
11 i=
@;;..'o".... 14 .l~.-. ~ :J: 15 .:. "'::"> 16 ~... 1:1 Z ~ 17 : 18
19
20
21 22 23 24
25

PAGE 21
i
Governor, I think we had just as well mention right I

here with the Committee. Our Committee had made their de-I

cision and I think it was a hundrod percen~. But we

II

,

looked at constitutional--se1f-enacting constitutional

I

am~ndment that was passed last year having to do with

62-years and older on a space-availabe basis bein~ accommo~

dated by the University System. We thought that was

I\

garbage insofar as the Constitution was concerned. It's I
I
a statutory matter or matter of--by law that should be
I left"to the Board of Regents. And that's the feeling of I

this Committee. whether we can politically stand that. I
I
don't know. But that was the hundred percent feeling of

my Committee that that sort of language for a specific.

special interest shouldn't be written in the Constitution

of Georgia. Because it just doesn't belong there. We

feel that the language in it should be protective for all

people and specific considerations for specific groups

should be done by statute. And that was the reasoning for

our consideration.

Now. I've already started getting lett~rs and whatnot

objecting to removing that from the Constitution. 13nt

whether we'll have to or not. I don't know. r,iy Commi ttee

I
considered it in-depth and felt that it was certainly--andl
!
what ~e have done. we have Ie ft that to the discretion--

I the

only

reason--the

reason

we

thoug~t

that was

because
I _ _ _ _- - J

PAGE 2/.

--------- --I

I

we've got special--we got folks in my office the other

!

2

day. All the college professors want their children to

3

go to school for nothing. Well, I want them to go to

4

school for nothing too but I think State ~mployees chil-

S

dren sh0uld go to school for Nothing, too, if theirs

6

should go. And you've got special interests coming at you!

7

one at a time. And if we're going to get into that ball-

8

park, it's never ending and I just--we just felt like tha

9

it was a consideration for the Board of RegentH. 'de felt

10

that they were subject to less political pressure than

members of the legislature. And that's the reason we put

it the re But it's something we'll be hearing more ahout.

GOVE RNOR BUSBEE:

Is there any further discussion on the Article or

either the proposed statutory changes?

REP. SHmV-:

I move its tentative adoption.

18 SEN. OVERBY:

19

I second it.

20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

21

It's been moved and it's been seconded. Is there any

22

discussion? This will be with the same understanding that

23

24 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

2S

al~ Let me--let me say this, Governor. I have--you

PAGE 23
--_.,

have this Article here that we enclosed with you. Now,

I

2

I'll be sending to you--this is a section by section docu-I

3

ment that will explain why every change was made in each !

4

section that it was made. And you'll be receiving this in

5

the immediate future and it's section by section as this

6

Article is, setting forth in detail what changes we made

7

and why we felt they were necessary.

8 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

9

All right. So the motion's been made and it's been

10
Czl 11 ~
'..o"....
12 ~
9r! 14 >~ '<"C % 15 ~ Cl '~" 16 .~.. o Z <C 17 g!i

seconded. And it's with the undp.rstanding that any member of the Committee can request me as Chairman to call a meeting and I'll do so--for reconsideration. All right. All those in favor say aye. [A chorns of ayes.1 ;a. 11 right. All those opposed? [No response. J It's adopted unanimously.
I might say that we really shortened the Constitution with that.

18 JUSTICE NICHOLS:

19

I read that things, I told AI, just before I came

i
I

20 21

1~Ottb~._c1i over here so I could sort of be familiar with it. I
cluttered up reading'it when I first got it. ! nead

22

fore I came ovp.r here and I think they did a fine job.

I

I

23 GOVEn.NOR ntJSPEB:

I

24

~fl c 11, I think one of the best things, too, is that

I

I

25

when you have all the special interests that arc written i

---l

PAGE 24

into the Constitution, for them to meet with all these

2

groups and to deal with the retirement system, your scho-

3

l~rships--all these local constitutional amendments--and

4

to be able to explain what they were doing and to have no

5

more opposition than what we've had is a commendable job

6

that the Committees have done.

7 JUSTICE NICHOLS:

8

Just getting rid of all these local constitutional

9

amendments.

10 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

"z
11 j:
'o.."....
@;~

Yes. Well, we tackedl those on a one-on-one basis. got in touch with each political entity that was affect d and--

14 ~ ,JUSTICIE NICHOLS:

':"r

15 .:I

You got the approval from all the counties, I assume?

"'";:)

16 ~... SEN. HOLLOWAY: oz

17 :

tie II, I think there's one that we wrote--what--sever-

18

al weeks ago and haven't heard from. And other than that,

19

I think we've got the affirmative approval. But Richmond

20

County, I believe we haven't heard--

21 MR. FINDLEY:

22

No, sir. Not on the removal of the local constitu-

23

tional amennments. The Richmond County--the county at tor-

24

ney ria sed the question from the standpoint of substantiv8

25

J policy as it relates to home rule. But he did not object

PAGE 25

to the removal of the local constitutional amendments. I

2

think that he sees that the local constitutionaJ amend-

3

ments, if I understand situation, will not be necessary.

4

Indeed, some general amendments to the Constitution as

5

far as Richmond County's concerned have already made the,

6

largely, the local constitutional amendment for Richmond

7

County unnecessary. I don't think we have any problems

8

insofar as the repeal of the local constitutionnl amend-

9

ments are concerned after havin~ talked finally with him

10 Czl
11 ...
oa....r..:
@r~12 ~ SEN.

that the Committee's proposal is rule standpoint.
HOLLOi'il\ Y :
It's been some time ago and

acceptable we haven't

from a home heard from

14 ..~.... <0(
%
15 0)
":'>" 16 .~..
o
Z
<0(
17 :

him. But generally speaking, we--subject to criteria set by the legislature, control of pension systems are in the political entity, whether it he school board, county, ci ty that pays into the pension fund. So if in the Fulton

18

county situation, it switches over to the school board,

19

they can do it without the requirement for a constitution-

20

al amendment--local constitutional amendment.

21 GOV:r.RNOR BUSBEE:

22

If you'll turn, nO'N, to--tJentlHffi,-:n, on your tab A,

23

there are several tbinga on.the agenda. Starting off with

24

four about the discussion of the effective date of pro-

25

J posed Articles, Frank, do y'all have any comment on that?

PAGE 26

1
MR. EDWARDS:

2

I
We had discussed that, not in any particular, speCif-j

3

ie way. Just generally, we thought the Committee ought tOI

I

4

maybe discuss whether they wanted to make the Articles

5

effective, m~ybe, July 1, 1977, and give the legislaturo

I

6

a chance to operate or--I mean 1979--and give the legisla-i

7

ture a chance to pass acts after this becomes effective or

8

whether they wanted to bring it back $ooner and make the

9

acts effective at the same time or what? Just as general

10

discussion, we dn't have any specific--

"z

11

j:
o.."..'..

GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:

J2 ~
!:!

Ive 11 , we need to kind of outline procedurn and--

@ r i HR. HOLTON:

14 ..>....-

It would be imperative in our Articl~ II if they

%

15 .:.

make it July 1, 1979 and give them the session--

"~
:::>

III

16 ! COVE RNOR BUSBEE:

oz



17 :

If it's November of 1978 that these are adopted,

18

you'd have one more legislature. And then by making it

19

effective on July 1st, that would coincide with all legi5-

20

lation that does not have an earlier effective date. I

21

think July 1, 1979, would be the most propitious time to

22

have it.

23 r1P. r: DNARDS :

24

I think that if it suits you, we'll take another look

25

J at it and maybe Arthur's office can and I think as you __

PAGE 27

----~------,

Raid we're prohably going to have to have one more meet-

i
i

2

ing .t le t before the i.n. 'nd cDuld com. back

I

3

maybe and a~opt something specific.

4 GnV'R'H)R BUSBEE:

5

Well, what I would like to do and we could defer

6

that~-I mean, I think we've expressed ourselves. Rut

7

we've got to come up now with a Drafting Committee on the

8
!I
9 II
10
.. 11 .Cz..I ..0....
.12 .u.. t.z=.. u
@r '" 14 .>..'~:"z: .15 ,:) CI ...;:) 16 .z.. .0z ~ 17

two Articles that we have adopted and also the Drafting Committee will be in charge of the suhstantive le9i91ation--proposed legislation.
So, I think the next order of business would he the crpation of a Drafting Committee to make a draft and get hack to the full committee. We will have to m~et for approval of that .
And we also are going to have to hav0 this hefore g0tting to that--and the Drafting Committee will have to know this--will be on the number five--about amendments to

18

existing Articles proposed during the 1978 Session of the

19

General Assembly. Do you want to do what we did on--in

20

1975 on that;?

21

MR.. T~D\N7\Rns:

22

Well, if I might comment on that. That creates a

23

possihl ity for real problems. We had a raft of proposed

24

amen~msnts which were passed in the 1977 session. 'ivo haveJ

i

25

a raft of proposed amendments which are pending. And T'm i

______._.--l

PAGE 28

__._ _- .. ._~--_

. . ~_...

"'

sure we'll have another bigger raft that will be intro- II

2

ahOUr dueed this next session. So if we don't dn something

3

those individual amendments--those single amendments that'i

4

for example, would ammend the 1\rticle Arthur had or the

5

one that Al has, and let them pass, we're going to be righ

6

back in the same position we're trying to eli~inate. So

7

my--that would be my ~econd choice--to havo this commissio

8

incorporate those amendments. What we're trying to rio her,

9

I think, in this Select Committe is have thu Constitution

10

just like these two subcommittees have it--I maan, with

possible minor changes. But that's the way the Constitu-

tion's supposed to be. So if we let ten single amendments

be incorporated into these~ we'd be right back where w~

were be fore.

15 ~ r-m. BOLTON:

":':">

16

lD
Z...

Wouldn't help a thing.

0z

0(

17 :: MR. Em'1ARDS:

18

So I would make maybe two alternative suggestions.

19

One is that we--and this would take a lot of time--go in

20

and look at each one of these amendments--and thiG would

21

require the cooperation of certain of the presiding offi-

22

cers and all the committee chairman, for that matter, and

23

everybody else in the legislature--and say that, in the

24

event--letls say this was amendment to the ~lective Fran-

25

chise Article--puts some age limit or something on th~t.

PAGE 29 __~------l
Put in that particular amendment--say that "In the eVflnt II

2

the people ratify Revised Article TI, then this amendment I

3

shall not become effective," or "shall become void," some-I

4

thing along that line. Then that would--then you'd wind I

5

up with Article II exactly as it was hopefully made and I

I

6

passed by this Select Committee or certainly as changed

I

7

migh~ by the legislature. But, then the second alternative

8

be--and I'm not sure about this from a legal viewpoint.

9

This could create some problems. Put something in each

10

one of these Articles her~ to that effect. Th~t if these

"z
11 ~
.l'o".L.

two Articles are ratified, then any other amendments re-

~ 12 ~

lating to them will not become effective. Rut that, to

~F~

me, creates some legal problems that I don't know whether

14 ~ ~

it would be wise.

'-:"r

15 ~ GOVER,\fOR BUSBEF:

"'";:)

16 ~...

I think it's going to have to be coordinated with

o

Z

<l

17 :::

the House and the Senate as far as--

18 t-1R. EDWARDS:

19

And then, my third would be what Marty was talking

20

ahout--about the possibility of creating a commission. As

21

1 say, I would personally not favor that, to te-l you the

I

22

truth.

23 GOVSRN0R BUSBEE:

I

I

24

You would pc rsonally not favor doing wh a t we di d in

25

J 19767 Rut to take care of it in the legislature in the
._--

individual bills themselves. 1'; l? 2 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

PAGE )0

- ~ ~ - - ~ - - ~ - - - - - -

~---

-~ ~~l

i
!

3

Governor, one thing we consider~d--r've bp8n con-

1

!

4

inli
sidering is what committee to send t.hi.s thing to? JOI.'I}

1

i

S

II
the--you've got several"-Iligher Et1llcation for scholarhi;-,s;

6

you've got Retirement for the retirement and pension ~lans!

7

and you've got Judy for the law. And r think it might be

8

a good recommendation of this Committee to recommend to

9

the leadership of both houses that all of these bills be

10
"z
11 t-
oo..<.
WI
(~)":i
~/~ 14 ! t'" :I: 1S .) III 0< ::l 16 ~ WI III Z 17 :::
18

assigned to Judy Committees. And then you've got a cnntinuity of judgment of the same groups in cverlappins area Where if we get one in Pension; another one in Judy--it seems to me we could wind up with some problem areas there
I
And I say--I feAI that it's a germane suhj~ct--the Constitution of Georgia is germane to the Judiciary Committee
I
I
of any--and I think it's germane to the extent that it's i
I
i
reasonable that it go there and T would hope that all of I
I our Articles would go to the Judy Committee And be T!vi (~\vcdl

19

by that Committee.

I

I

20

Now, the Voter Franchise Article--r don't know. Do

21

you see the problem I'm talking about?

I

22 1'll<. BOLTOt\:

I
I

23

Yeah, I hadn't thought ahout that.

24 SEN. HOLLOt-TAY:

I

2S

I think the Judy Committee hasn't been consl.. d erl'.ng

II

___J

PAGE 31

most of our voter franchise legislation.

2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

3

I think we just have to talk with the Speaker and

4

the Lieutenant Governor and we'll--they're going to make

5

the assignment. I concur with what you say, though.

6 MR. EDWARDS:

7
8
9
10
"z
11 ... II< ...o 0..
@;j ! 14 ... '" l: 15 ~ "II< ::;) 16 o~z 17 ::'i
18

Governor, if I might say one more thing and then I'll

he quiet on that point. Al says we might have a--maybe a

political problem taking out that Aixty-two year old deal

in the Board of Regents. You're going to have a lot of

I single amendments that people are--possibly that legisla-

tors are possibly gung-ho to have.

II
They might say J "\~ell,

I don't want my amendment cut out," and that sort of

thing. So I think that's going to have to be considered .

But I think if we're going to do this--what we're trying

to do will provide for each Article and we'll just have to

bite the bullet and do it. Because otherwise, what we're

doing won't mean a thing.

19 GOVERNOR BUSl1FE:

20

So what you're saying 1s you personally will appear

21

before both the House and the Senate Committees that con-

22

sider this and express yourself.

23 MR. EDvlARDS:

24

I'm going to writA ~ letter and Prntice is going to

25
.__p_._r_i_"_t_l__t _f_o__r _m_e_.

J

PAGE J2 r r - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~--~~--~.-------'~'----
MR. TIDI'lELL:

2

Frank, what do you feel about a two-pronged approach?

3

As a policy matter, trying to do your first choiGe, real-

4

izing that the General Assembly will cave in occasion-

5

ally ann specially have tha.t commission to back l1JJ and

6

incorporate those that you're not able to successfully

7

kill?

8 MR. EDW-lARDS:

9

Well--

10 MR. TIDWELL:

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11 j:

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f.~~r ~ ." , ~ 0:;::;1

12
ca. . _

~~ M"

! 14 ... '" :J:
15 ~ MR. ~
:l
16 .~..
oz 17 :

Or does that destroy the effectiveness of trying to kill it)'
EDWARDS:
I would sort of think--think that I don't know.
TIDWELl, :
I do~'t think we're goihg,to haqe as man~ problems with these two Articles as we are the future Articles that

18

come that attract so many ~mendments. There are not that

19

many amendments probably that would go to these two Arti-

20

cles.

21 MR. E>DI'lARDS:

22

Well, I agree. This might not be any problem at all.

23

But I thought we might as well face it now.

24 MR. TIm.TELL:

25

When you get into the revenue one, you' .re reall:__ ~__~

PAGE 33
going to have a--you' re going to have --a-::-d-g-ep-O-d-9-:-~~:-r-~~-l

2 MR. EDWARDS:

I

3

And then, in addition, in AI's Article, Harvey has !

4

gone through ahd amended several other Articles. So we

5

not only have to watch out for amendments to these two

6

Articles but for those that Harvey has had to amend in

7

other Articles too. We've got to watch out for all of

8

them. It's quite a job.

9 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:'

10
"z
11 ...
..'o"....
~ 12 ~
~Fi ! 14 ...... :I: 15 01) "'":::l 16 .~.. zI:) 17 ::i

We'll monitor this and I'll say this. I would ask any Chairman--I'm sure they'll do this in the House and the Sante--that the Chairman, if they are considering making changes, I think it should behoove them to contact the Select Committee and ask us--at least be heard from on that.
You had some other things on the agenda here about possibly amending the law that creates the Select Commit-

18

tee--the resolution. Who wants to discuss those points?

19

I don't even know who put them on the agenda.

20 MR. EDWARDS:

21

Well, I can if you like.

22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

23

All right. YOu go right ahead.

problJ 24 !'1R. EDI--TARDS:

25

We had a--as you know, a-few little technical

i

PAGE 34

with--well, that's on the second point. The first point

2

is that when this Select Committee was originally created

3

and providing for a study committee was in the same reso-

4

1 uti 0 n . At' th e time, let me say be tw e e n 0 u r 0 f f ice and

5

Bill Harper, when he was here, and Charlie was in on this

6

when he was up there, we didn't contemplate at that time

7

that members of the Select Committee would serve on the

8

Study Committee, particularly in view of the fact that we

9

had anticipated that the Select Committee would spend more

10

time reviewing and studying what these study committees

put out. And so we've had--we've been thinking about that

and on--I've had some second thoughts about it, that it

might not be a bad idea if at least one member of the

Select Committee serve on the study committees to have

some real good liasion between this Committee and the

Study Committee. And in fact, the more I've thought about

it--and what I'm saying here is just my personal view-

18

point. This is something for the Committee to handle.

19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

20

Well, it would be like looking at the Constitution

21

and some things that should be statutory. Actually the

22

Articles Committees can be anyone that the Select Commit-

23

tee designates and so maybe that should be just left up

24

to the Select Committee as to who they want to serve on

I

25

the Articles Committees without putting it in the statute.J\

PAGE 35
.,.-----------------------------------l
Using the same principle that you use on the constitution I

2

and the statutes.

3 MR. EDWARDS:

4

Yes. It could be that way. But in any event, we

5

have--what I had prepared here was a little--just a rough

6

draft amendment for y'all to do some thinking about. And

7

here again, this is something we can decide at the next

8

9

10

11

.Cz..I
or:

~@r12

."0o.r".: .~..

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U

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14 .>..-
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15 .:.

CI
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16 :zID;
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~
17 tit ID

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
lL-

meeting as to how you want to handle that particular

situation. In this, I present the committees which were

appointed prior to July 1, 1977, which would take care of

the Judiciary Committee already because they had four mem-

bers of this committee on that. The reason at first we

didn't anticipate that any members of this Committee was

because in effect they would sort of be reviewing their

own work You have a whole flock of members of this 8el-
I
ect Committee on a study committee. Then we bring it up tl this Committee to review and they'd in effect sort of be
reviewing their own work. But as I say, I've come around I

to the .view that there certainly ought to be one member of

this Committee on each study committee just as liaison and

might ought to be the chairman of the study committee.

I
That could be either way.
I

The only other point I had on the thing was we had

I

!

some confusion about the pay of members of this Select

I

Committee and those of the Select Committee who were on thei ---.-J

PAGE 36

study committees. So one part of this thing tried to take

2

care of that and--I believe, Marty, did you put a copy of

3

this rough draft in the back of this thing?

4 MR. HODGKINS:

5

Yes, sir.

6 MR. EDWARDS:

7

If y'all want to look at that later on. That again

8

is something that needs studying. And my recollection is

9

the only member of this Select Committee that would be

10

changed would be Marcus. But you'd still be reimbursed

.."z
11 ~
.o.....
@;I

for your expenses even on the study committee just as you are on the Select Committee so I don't think it'd be any-particularly big deal. But it sort of straightens out

! 14 ...

that confusion .

'~"

%

.15 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
":::>

16 .~..

Well, we're going to have to have another meeting

oz

~

17 :

anyway.

18 JUDGE CA~HOUN:

19

I agree with the Governor. I think the membership of

20

the study committees ought to be left up to the Select

21

Committee and ought not to be locked into the statute. No

22

use in tying hands when we might want to change our minds I

r

23

again.

~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

25

This next meeting is going to be quite difficult

___.J

PA""GE 37

I s th~-;:-----l
to schedule between now and the legislature.

I

2

anything--

I

3 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

I

4

contact~ Do you need another meeting unless you have a

I

5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

i

6

I We will--the only thing we'll need is in the event--

!

7

now, if we need to change this resolution that created

I

8

us, we'll have to have another meeting unless I can mail

9

something out to you. You have yet to name a Drafting

10

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a:
.u..

t.z=..

u
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.14 >-

':"s:

15 .:I

..Ca:J
::>
16 z

0z 17 a:
ell

Committee and you're going to have to review the draft. Do you want--it's going to be extremely difficult to schedule. Now, would there be any objection as far as the drafting of these proposed resolutions and the statutes to let's go on and appoint at this time a Drafting commit-!
i
tee and mail each member of the Select Committee the draftt and if you don't have any ques--if no member asks for a meeting, then it's adopted.

18 REP. SNOW:

19

So move.

20 JUDGE SMITH:

21

Second.

22 GOVE RNOR BUSBEE:

23

Okay. So the motion is and the second, that we ap-

24

point at this time a Drafting Committee and the drafts

25

will be mailed out to each member of the Select Committee.

-~

PAGE 38 -----1
If no member of the Select Committee asks for a meeting i

2

or disapproves--or asks for a meeting, then the draft, as

I

3

drafted by the Drafting Committee, will be submitted to I

I

4

the General Assembly. All right. Is there any diSCUSSiO~

5

on that? If not, all those in favor say aye. (A chorus I

6

of ayes.] All opposed? (No response.] It's adopted.

I

7

Now, on the Drafting Committee, to appoint--why don" I

8

--I'll just suggest this; it might be out of order. Let'sl

9

just have, say, Legislative Counsel, my Counsel and the

10

Attorney General--someone--he or his designee, the three,

"z
11 ...

to be the Drafting Committee.

@;;I..ol..l..: Mr. Tidwell and Mr. Bolton.] JUSTICE NICHOLS:

(Indicating Mr.

Edwards,

! 14 ...

Do you make that as a motion or you--

'~"
:It

15 01) GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

"'~"
16 ~...

No, I can't make a motion

Q

Z

~
17 : JUSTICE NICHOLS:

18

I'll make it a motion.

19 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

20

I second it.

21 GOVE RNOR BUSBEE:

22

All right. The motion is made and it's seconded.

23

Any discussion on that? If not, all those in favor say

24

aye. (A chorus of ayes.] All opposed? (No response.]

25

It's approved.

PAGE 39

SEN. HOLLOWAY:

2

How is the--do you propose to introduce the legisla-

3

tion? As Administration legislation or just let it--

4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

5

well, now, the next question is, should it be intro-

6

duced in the House or in the Senate? I think it would be

7

well to discuss that right now. The budget's going to be

8

9

10 .

~

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11 o~r: SEN.
o "-
1M
12 ~

~r~

14

~ .~ x..

15 .)

CorJ:
::;)
16 ~ z~
17 : REP.

coming off first thing--on the supplemental budget. Why
I

couldn't you go and take this up immediately in the Sen-
l'

ate?

I

HOLLOWAY:

I

I
I'd like to with the concurrence of the House. Y'alll

I are going to be tied up on the Budget to start off with.

I'd like to go on and introduce it in the Senate and sort

of kick it on out. as far as my bill--my Article's con-

cerned.

SNOW:

18

If you're going to have it in the Judiciary, we could

19

take the other Article and--

20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

21

Let's do this. Let's take with the Speaker and the

22

Lieutenant Governor and then get back together on proce-

23

dure. Now, I know that you're going to start with yours I

i

24

over there. It might be that we could start with this onel

25

in the House.

I I
I
----_-!

PAGE 40

REP. SNOW:

2

I would like to see both of them brought up immedi-

3

ately and get them passed.

4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

5

I think they ought to be brought up at the same

6

time.

7 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

8

Well, we could start one in bne house and one in the

9

other.

10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

l-'

.. 11

Z j:

All right Is there any other business?

o......

@;I MR. TIDWELL: What about number five?

Was that resolved?

It

14 !......

wasn't in my mind but--

~

:I:

15 olI GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

"a:
:;)

16 .~..

Frank was saying--what he was speaking about is like

D

Z

0(

17 :

we had in the 1976 to resolve the conflict. But what

18

we're saying is we're going to monitor all the amendments

19

that are offered during the session and work with the

20

leadership in trying to have language put into those bills

21

that would be self-destruct upon the passage of these Arti

22

cles. And that's the reason I think it's essential that

23

we go on and pass these Articles early in the Session.

24

Okay. Any other business? If not, we stand adjourned.

I

25

I [Whereupon, the above-entitled proceedings were adjourned

---.-J

PAGE 41

at 3:50 o'clock, p.m.]

2

C E R T I F I CAT E

3

I hereby certify, as the court reporter, that the

4 statements that appear in the proceedings were taken steno-

5 graphically by me, and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me, 6 and that this transcript is a true and accurate record to the 7 best of my ability.
8

9
10
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11 i=
Io..I..<..
~ 12 ~
~F~ ! 14 ...... :I: 15 .:> "II< ~ 16 .~.. III Z 17 :

DARLENE F. AKINS, CCR
Notary Public, GllOrgia, State lit L~lI8 My Commi.,ion Expires Aug. 3, 1980

18

19

20

21

22

23
24
25
LL

i
I I
I ...........J

INDEX
Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on Nov. 29, 1977

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 11-29-77
Proceedings. p. 2 Article Committee Reports
ARTICLE II: VOTING AND ELECTIONS. pp. 2-11
ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH. pp. 17-25 (Retirement Systems)
ARTICLE VI: JUDICIARY. pp. 13-17
ARTICLE VIII: EDUCATION. pp. 17-25 (Educational Assistance Program)
Appointment of drafting committee. pp. 37-38

STATE OF GEORGIA
..-
Proceedings of the meeting of the Select Committee on Constitutional Revision, held on January 4, 1918, at 4:00 o'clock, p.m., in the Office of the Governor at the State Capitol, Atlanta, Georgia, and presided over by Governor Busbee.
BRANDENBURG & HASTY
SCIENTIFIC REPORTING 3715 COLONIAL TRAIL, DOUGLASVILLE, GEORGIA 30135
942-0482 DEPOSITIONS - ARBITRATIONS - COf\;VENllONS - CONFERENCE:'

II
Ii
Ii
2 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

PRO C E E DIN G S

l'ACE 2

3 II

The meeting will come to order. First will be the

4 1,1

adoption of the minutes of the meeting of November 29th.

1;

i'

5 ii
I,I'

You had the minutes mailed to you. I'll entertain a mo-

. !I

6 I;i'

tion on the minutes.

7 MR. BOLTON:

8

Move they be adopted.

SEN. HOLLOWAY:

10

Second.

11 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE I
",.,
Motion made and seconded.

Any discussion?

If not,

14 ~
;:
1,,''
J ~ ~ ~'1
Li

all those in favor say aye. (A chorus of ayes.' All opposed? (NO response.] It's unanimously approved.
Next, I'd like to calIon Frank Edwards for a brief discussion on the effective date of the proposed Articles. Frank?

MR. EDWARDS:

19

One thing we decided, that the Elective Franchise

20

Artiole could be made effective July 1979. And the time

21

on the Eduoation and Scholarships Article would become

12

effective January 1st. And the reasoning on that is,

23
otherwise we would have to put an effective date Article

24

on each one of the provisions contained in that particular:

I

2:'>

proP~s~~_~_,_~_n_,=-~~~~~_~,':'.st be--what, H_~rv.~-,_about~i9ht_J

2r. o -1 PAGE 3 ::a::~~-:; th~m~~~~~;h~-:-r ten ~ .~:: ~~:o:. ~h ~n;-;:::

'II MR. FINDLEY,

I

4i

Yes, sir.

I

'I

5

It
II

MR.

EDWARDS:

o !i

I:

7 Ii I!

iva

:1,
r: :i GOVERNOR !I
II
Y II

And I felt there was no need to postpone date of that particular Article. BUSBEE I
Now, wait a minute. You said January 1:,

the effect-
19791

10 MR. EDWARDS:

I j ,. 0<

On the Retirement and Scholarships Article.

o

Q.

0:'.1oA

-l GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

".

Yes, Al?

14 i: SEN. HOLLOWAY:

VI

::L

I', c,

I don't see any other heading to bring it up under,

("
,,:

i ;) :,:">., 'v

but what has concerned me is, what happens to a constitu-

L

I

'!

!

J".L

tional amendment that's introduced affecting one of these'

18

Articles? And looking at redoing the Constitution Article l

19

by Article, I think we kind of overlooked that on the

20

basis, haven't we?

"~i GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

22

I thought we discussed this at the last meeting.

21 MR. TIDWELL:

We've got a discussion on the agenda.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
.---._--._._------_. ----_._-------_._- ._-----------

_.

J

- - - -------~ - - - - - - - _ .__._---

PAGE 4

We have a discussion on the agenda today for i t also.

SEN. HOLLOWAY:

Oh, we do. I didn't see it. Thank you.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Now, Frank, what you're saying on the Retirement and

scholarships that we'd start that on the effective date

7

of January I, 1979. And then on the other Article. it

would be July of 1979--July 1st. All right, now. Is

10
I! C
0:
o
o.
'0":

there any--I think it would be necessary to have a motion on the Select Committee on that. Was that ever--that's never been finally adopted, was it; I don't think so, Marty?

HODGKINS:

(Indicating negative response.'

.~ SEN. HOLLOWAY:

'"':::J ]1' ~
a
Z

So moved.

<l

17

'"
OJ

JUSTICE

HILL:

iH .
Ii

Second.

II

II .19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

20 I'

It's been moved, then, and seconded. Is there any

II

21 :1

discussion on those effective dates? All right. That

22 II
II

would be the--January 1st for the Retirement and Educa-

tional Scholarships. Yours will be July 1, 1979 (indi-

24 ;
II
25 IL_

eating Mr. Bolton].

pf ayes.)

PAGE 5

-----,- -- --------------------. ----- -- ------------------- - ---------------1

All opposed? [No response.) All right.

Ii

I

2

Marty, do you want to, at this time, give us your recom-

I

3

mendations as to Articles to revise in 1978 and beyond?

4 MR. HODGKINSI

5

Yes, sir. We had--Frank Edwards and Charlie Tidwell

6

and I had talked and it seemed that, possibly, the best

7

schedule to do would be tb--actually to crank up all com-

8

mittees under the remaining Articles to start their rev1-

sion next year. Under that what we had hoped would be

10

~~
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Articles III, the Legislative Branch,. Artio~e IV, cons~itut
I
tional Boards and Commissions and Article V, the Executive
Branch, possibly would come up with recommendations for the 1979 General Assembly. And then on the other Articles they deal with the Taxation, Education, Counties and Municlpa1 Corporations and the other three miscellaneous Artieles, that work could at least begin on them sometime next Summer and a lot of them would have to have a lot of prep-

aratory work that's pretty difficult to to in one summer.

At least get them started next year and perhaps they could

report at the 1980 or 1981 General Assembly. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

You're saying Article III was Education?

i

,,~ Ii

L.) Ii MR. HODGKINS:

I

:!

I

24 :1
I

Yes, sir. Oh, no, that was Legislative Branch.

i

Ii
25 IL~OVERNOR BUSBEE:

I

__________.

.

J

-----------------------..---.-,--- ..-----~

PAGE 6

-------.--.,.--------.~-~--

. ----.-~----------

. --.---.-~--------_.--

.----'1

Oh, I'm sorry. That's Article VIII. Article III is I

Legislative?

i

I

MR. HODGKINS:

I

I
Yes, sir.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

And what other ones? 7 MR. HODGKINS:

Article IV, the Constitutional Boards and Commissions!
!
and Article V, the Executive Branch. And of course a con-i

10

tinuation of Article VI.

1 l ;~; GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

'.'L,
12 "~~'
\/~~~)/yr~~

And then we continue working on Article VI, Judiciary?

'--_Y

14

>~;

MR.

HODGKINS:

,~

1:

;,
16 11~
"z
<1;
17 ~

Yes, sir. Hopefully, we have proposals ready for the
1979 session of the General Assembly. And all the remain-:
I
ing Articles we could--at least get started on and have a

liS
reporting date of 1980 or 1981.

19
SEN. HOLLOWAY:

20
In 1979, you can't vote on a constitutional Article,

21
can you?

MR. HODGKINS:

No, sir.

I SEN.

PAGE 7

Actually that would have some effect on your spacing?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

No, what he's talking about is taking the Legisla-

tive and Constitutional Boards, the Executive Branch and

the Judicial--all in this two-year period--is what it

9

amounts to and trying to complete the work in one year on

this and add some more. Is that what you're talking about

Marty?

(. (t~Vr~ 'r~l\ ~ 12 ~ MR. HODGKINS: Yes, sir.

So that hopefully in 1980 we'd have at

14 .>..-. l~

least four to vote on, if not more

:t:

j,

,j
co

GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:

:":"J

1() .~

w

Let me ask you, Is--1 don't anticipate that we're

Q

1: 0:
] /' ~

going to be doing too much during the legislative session

Hs !;
Ii

that we're in now. 00 you want to adopt--does the Select

19 Ii II

Committee want to go on and choose what we will be working

20 II:i

on; let the staff be doing some work while we're here or--

I1:1
21 !I MR. HODGKINS:

n Ii

Yes, sir, that's--

23 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

24
I
il:1
2')
lL _

--at least we could start on some of them and maybe

I

I

add son:e mor0 to them. But what's the feeling of the

- - - _ .. .. ... _ - - , - ~ - - _~-_.,

J

Committee?

PAGE 8
--~ -- - ------------------------ --- ---------_._-------- ------------------------,

I don't think you can start too early, at least to

authorize it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE,

Well, I'm thinking about staff-wise and so forth, we I

7

need to know what we're going to do.

MR. TIDWELL:
:;
The original schedule was proposed that this project

10

would be completed in 1982. So you have to get on about

J ] 1-
"-

the work of working on these other Articles immediately.

And when we say 1979, really, it's probably going to take

two years. Actually it will be submitted in 1980--those

four Articles. And then that only leaves another two

-,
lh ~
oI~
;-;,
1', .x ~ / .:1
18 19 20 21
)}
23 .'4

years to complete the whole project. So the staff felt

like that you should authorize the creation of these com-

mittees and get them cranked up. Because some of them

are going to take a full four years. And these others

are probably going to take a full two years. You saw

what we got into in the Judicial Article, that it was

right complex. And these--the schedule proposed there is

,
really basically state government. That would be the Leg-i

islativ., Judicial and Executive Branch and the Boards.

I
i

And that's your basic strueture of government there and

I
!

i

that would be a handful to get that done in two years.

j'

.. ... ~----~~~--_

,._--~---------------

PAGE 9

rr------ --- ----

---- ----------- ------------------------ --

"---,

II

I
But if we don't start, we're not going to make it. You'rel

) II

not going to meet your time schedule.

I

3 IIii GOVERNOR BUSBEE t



Ii

4 !i

Any member desire to comment on the--the staff has

1:

5

II
Ii

proposed that we start on Ill, IV, V and VI. We could addl

Ii

6 ii

to that at the end of the session. What's the feeling? i

Ii

I

'I
7 II REP. SNOW:

i

II



8 il

I concur in that.

it

I

lj

!i
Ii

MR.

BOLTON:

I

!

10

Suits me.

!

JUDGE CALHOUN:

I move we authorize them to do so.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

All right. The motion is that--is there a second?

1., ~.), MR. BOLTON:

:~

lb "z",,
;)

I second it.

z:

'~"" GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

J (;

Motion made and seconded that the Select Committee

19

has chosen Articles III, IV, V and to continue on Article

20

VI. Is there any discussion? If not, all those in favor

21

say aye. [A chorus of ayes.] All opposed? [No reponse.]

J)

Adopted.

All right. Charlie, do you want to bring up the--

24

what we were talking about a while

limit the amendments to Articles?

PAGE 10
MR. T:::~~.'~ir'-~~.-la~~~.~~in~..~.r~waa-~th.-- ---I
2

3

Select Committee tried to adopt policy on how to deal withl

i

4

the problem of handling concurrent amendments that were

5

being adopted by the General Assembly to the various

Articles as they 90 through the revision process. And

7

the rather loose policy that was adopted that the best

thing is that we just would have no amendments. That

kind of was the sum and substance of that recommendation

10

--that we would discourage the General Assembly from pro-

~
12 '"
.... (~~~~~ ~ "~ I1: '" ~ , - -.. 14 >. <>r. 15 '.:~ co rL :;) 16 zI':CI 0"' z < L ''""
18 II
III"
19
II
,I
II
20 I
21
22
, ,,
21
25

posing and passinq independent amendments to the Articles

that were then going to be reviewed during that two-year

period.

We--the Drafting Committee got back together and,

in conjunction with your staff--and we felt like that that

--while that was an effective way to do it, it did not

take into consideration that the Select Committee really

doesn't control that process. That is, while there are

legislative leaders on the Select Committee, the Select

Committee cannot really enforce that policy. So we have

--have come up with a recommendation for a--including that

as part of the policy, hut an attempt to try and handle i

'I
all conceivable situations that we might run into in the I,

future. Now, what that policy consists of is a very strong

I
J

r-~------------------------------_-

PAGE 11 _ - - - - - - - , ._~_-----------_..

i

policy position by the Select Committee that there be no

2I

amendments adopted to the Articles, realizing that if we

II,I

3 II

don't control that, that if an amendment--that there are

4 Ii
5 IIIiI

amendments proposed and under consideration that a selfdestrlct provision be added to each of those amendments

6 IIIII'I

that would say in the event that Article V were to be

7 II

ratified at the same election as this proposed amendment

I,

8 I,

Ii

to Article V was ratified, that then that independent

II

ii

9 !i
II

amendment would be null and void.

10
There, again, that will not completely handle the

situation. Because at this very General Election, we're

going to have an amendment to Article II that does not fit

into the Elective Franchise structure. So the third

policy position would be--is that those--where there are

15 '~

C,

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1() ,;I:: L ~,
"L

17

a' I en

independent amendments that have been paBsed, that there

be an attempt to repeal. The one we're talking about here!

I

would be the recall provision. But if that were not a

I

I

ib Ii

i
viable alternative, politically--the General Assembly

Ii

19

I!
'I

II

I
could not be convinced that that was the thing to do, thenl

20 II



II

a--a fourth policy position would be--is where possible

21 II
II

I
that existing amendment would be moved to another Article.i

22 'I

I

I'I
23 I,!'
Ii

As an illustration of what we're talking about there I
emend~ on the reoell provision. rether then heving it .s en

24 'I
L25

i ment to Artiole II, it is jnet es germene to Artiole ,~' the Bill of Rights, and we would simply amend it--the

.. --~._.-

_~---

[1-----
!I
II
2 !I I
i
3I
II 4 I,

PAGE 12
existing amendment--move it over into Article I. The last p08sibility--policy recommendation would be
that we do recreate that special commission that we had-that was created in the 1976 Constitution to incorporate

sI I

into the new document any amendments con--that were rati-

I

6 Ii I,

fied concurrently. And this of course is a recognition of

II

7 III,

the failure of all the other positions that go in front of

I!

,I

8

II
I'I

I
that. But we probably will have 80me even if all of these'

9
--if the policy is adopted by the Select Committee to have

10

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20 II
II
21 II

II 22 I,I'
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!I 24 II
Ii
II
2S lLI! ______

a very forceful and rigid campaign to not have amendments, that sOlie are going to be 'introduced; some are going to be passed; eome are not going to be repealed; 80me are not going to have a self-destruct feature added to it. And to deal effectively with that situation, the only thing that we know that we could come up with is a special commission that could then incorporate that amendment into the Article. And the final thing is that we solicit the help of the Speaker and the Lieutenant Governor and the legislative leadership to enforce this policy very rigidly --to seek their assistance through whatever means are available to them to acquaint the members of the General Assembly with this policy and to seek their cooperation in enforcing it. And there is the package that the staff recommends to deal with this subject.
If anybody has any questions about it, we'd be glad t

1 I attempt t o answer them. 1-~----'~~~---~~--------

- - ~ - - - - _ . _ ~---~

PAGE 13

Ii2 GOVERNOR BUS BEE r

:1

II

3 II

Let me ask you this. The first thing you said would

I,

II

4 III'

be to ask that we not have any amendments to be intro-

5 il

duced. The last you ended up by saying we'd have to seek

6 II

cooperation of the Lieutenant Governor, Speaker, Chairmen

II

7 jj
II

of the Committees, wherever these things would be referred

!i

8 :1

And if we have a self-destruct p'jivison placed, that we

I.

') III

would have to do this ourselves--but we would have a self-

!O
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j I [~
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(1~~'0~')f}r~\'~~. ~~:

destruct section placed in any proposed smendment. And the one thing that I have a question on is about the special commission.
Now, that's what we had before when we had the con-

14 ."
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stitutional revision. We would have to do that in the

)S ..,,>

constitutional amendment itself?

,1

iL

16

:.''1" 3

MR.

oz

'rIDWELL:

<'

17 ;,

That'. right. We recommend a separate arnendrnent--

Ii 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

I: Ii

19 Ii

So really aren't what we I re talking about on this,

,I

Ii

20 Ii

Charlie, is for you and Frank and loiarty and all of us--

2J

11,'1'

I,
II 22 1'I

we'll flag these things; we'll talk to the Speaker; we've got the Lieutenant Governor here now. And then, when

23 IIi'I

somebody introduces it, then I think we can take it up at

I'
24 IIII

that point?

I'I
::5 I MR. TIDWELL:

L

__ ~.-~._.

~

~_~~

._.

.

II ------------- ---------------- - - - - ------ -------- ---------------

PAGE 14

Right.

2 SEN. HOLLOWAY'

3

Whole g01ng to have the responsibility for bird-dog-

4

ging theee things?

5 MR. TIDWELL:

()

I think your staff would have to do that, Senator.

7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

8

Right. The staff will do that. We oan call a meet-

<)
ing if we have some more--when this comes up, but is

there anything we need to adopt at this time?

TIDWELL:

I think that the staff felt strongly that this should

be the policy--the very strong policy of the Select Com-

15 'J

"a:

:>

a 16 '-;".

z

-

17

0:
co

11-\

19

20

21

23

mittee on this subject. And that that would then lend
I
weight to try and--the most effective way of course is not!
to have any amendments. Then you don't have any problems.
We checked with some other states that have gone through
this process and that's-the only one that we could really
find that was that close was South Carolina. And they i
did--the Chairman of the Judiciary Committe. in the House, II
all constitutional amendment were referred to his commit- I
I I
tee and he simply wouldn't let them out. And that was
very effective but I don't think--we cannot oontrol it

that way.
25
GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

[r----------- ------------------------------------------------------PAGE 15 --.-._-~,

I

II

We can di8courage that--amendment of these sections

i

.2 Ii!

But I don't think that even the presiding officers could

ii

II

.< II

go that far on the rules.

4

II
I'! MR.

TIDWELL:

5 II !I

No, sir, I think that--we recognize that this is not

!i

6! I:

the p08utre that we're in here--that the Select Committee

Iii

7 ii
Ii

can't control it.

I'

g

I GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Just for purposes of discussion and going on, I think

JO

,i-

we all recognize the problem if these were to be amended

~,:) I I 1__

and s separate amendment placed separate on the ballot, if

we did not have a special comssion--so what we're saying

1s we're going to try and keep any amendment from being

, j 'i ;>--

made to these two Articles. If one is made, we'll have a

1c
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i"

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1:

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self-dstruct section added to it--a recall amendment. The~ we also will--in the event that we fail in all of this and they do pass a separate and independent amendment to any of these Articles, we will at that time try and put a

I9
special co.mission similar to what we had before in. So

20
that's about the status of it?

21 MR. TIDWELL:
.
That's right.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
I
All right. Is that the policy of the committee_? Any:
25
objection to us pursu--the staff pursuing this? All right

PAGE 16

~. ---... -~~. -no:~ tha ;- is -:~~-;o-;~'~;:'~~-~-~-~--:-~-:~~::~~-;;~~:~~d~.

ilI,II
!I
2 MR. EDWARDS:

Ii

3 Ii

Mr. Chairman I would I add something?

I
;
4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE;

5

All right.

6 MR. EDWARDS:

7

Nhat's the feeling of the Select Committee on the

8

recall amendment which has already passed this last

session? Has anybody got any--

lU GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Ii, 0: o...

What is that?

'~'"" MR. EDWARDS:

~

I don't--I vetoed one.

This is a constitutional amendment authorizing the

.>..-. ':l
1:.
IS.,
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16
o
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17 ~SEN.

General Assembly to pass a law and recall. what the foe ling of the Committee is about this list of things?
HOLLOWAY:

I just wonder i just going down

18 II

Let's recall that recall thing.

Ii 1C) GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

II

20 II
Ii

I vetoed the statute on the thing.

21 IIIi Ma. EDWARDS:

ii
22 ',i,
II

I'm just c~Irioue because that--we're faced with that I'

23 II !,

one right now.

i

I

~+ iI MR. TIDWELL:

I

i.1
25 I"i
il. _

I
If the Select Committee were to--and they have--adoptt d
... _ - - - _. . ---~-----------_._------~.-.--~_._---~-_

PAGE 17

---~h~S ---

----------------~
policy, then you would sponsor a resolution to repeall

2 ,I

that recall provision. And--

II 3 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

4 !i

Hamilton just made a good suggestioft to amend the--

could we amend that bill to put the destruct clause in it.

Surely that ought to sail through the legislature, all

right.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE;

That would be a good way to bring this thing up and

10

l?

Z

1J

l-
CoY

MR.

o.

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(~~'j9Y)li)dr'!'!'~

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I think it's an excellent suggestion.
BOLTON:
Can you reach out and get a con--proposed tional amendment and bring it baok?

constitu-

"" - . '/"

14 >-
.>"- MR. TIDWELL:
'l

1S .~
Cl

Yes, sir.

I:"::

::>

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a

GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:

l

Well, what Ham i8 talking about is just for us to

,

I

I
cause an amendment to be made to put a self-destruct

=i
19 I.I,Ii

I
clause in there in the event that we pass our Article that.1

20 1'1'

the Select Committ.ee proposes.

I

II'I
21 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

Ii

22 IIII

I
Do you deal with this in your Article, Arthur?

23 II'.,i MR. BOLTON:

I

I'

24 Ii

.

II

No.

II 25 lL GOVERNOR BUSBEE: _

-~

0---------------------- --

.... ,. --.--------.- ..-.,_..-PA-G_E .1-8------l

Ii

No.

I

2 I SEN. HOLLOWAY:

I

3

Well, the thought came to me a while ago--what has I

4

worked sometimes is to--well, of course, this bill has

5

already passed. You could amend it and put it in Article

6

XIII which is Miscellaneous and deal with it last. Let

7

that be your last Article. A lot of this stuff can just

be thrown in Miscellaneous that's not necessarily germane

:i

or intermingled, you see.

10 MR.
"z
11 I-
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12 ~
(~S~~r"~~ 14_.. ':! ,r. 15 ,~
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16 ''~"" ow 7 'l ]7 ~

TIDWELLl Anyone of theae six--five things to be recommended
would be a tool to deal with that problem. And it would just--you'd have to see which one is the most effective. Maybe you couldn't repeal it or maybe you could put a self-destruct. If you couldn't put a self-destruct, maybe you could move it to Article I. It gives you_the option to attack the problem from different--

18 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

!\

i 1<)

i
I'

We're going to have a problem.

I really don't have

20 ili,1 II

a solution to this because if that is--if that remains as

2l 'I

is, we don't have any way of dealing with it.

221 I"

SEN.

HOLLOWAY:

I

23 I,II
24 Ii
,I

J Well, suppose both of them pass. What problem have I

we got?

g

I t ' . no t ove r l_a_p_Pi n _ i n a nf wa_y_,_i_S__i_t_?

Ii 25 MR. EDWARDS:

IL___ '.,

.

----1 PAGE 19
Are you talking about the self-destruct thi:.,-

2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

3

Yes, it amends that order. Without a self-destruct, I

4

i~ i t were to go on and pass and we were to pass our

I
Articles, what would happen?

I

6 MR. EDWARDS:

i
I

7

well, it wouldn't fit in becau this sspa.ate a.end-!

Si

ment is an amendment to the existing 1976 Article that's I

9

now been changed.

MR. TIDWELL:

It would be amending something that doesn't exist,

AI.

SEN. HOLLOWAY:

I see.

i; ~ MR. EDWARDS:

,;;,:,:

::>

It:; ~ "I

well, that would be a good one to try this.

z.~,

.,;

17 ~ JUDGE CALHOUN:

1H II

Mr. Bolton, do you remember, did you call for abol-

]'l

ishing the old Article.

20 II MR. BOIoTON:

21 I,Ii I, il
22 [I
,I

You just go directly to the source, though, and ask him can that be done because I'm not going to rule on it.

23

11
1'.1'

JUSTICE

NICHOLS:

24 I

i

I

Do you want a declaratory judgment?

I
I

25 IiI JUDGE CALHOUN:

IL

_.

.-.-------.---.--.------. J

PAGE 20

r------------:-:--s~:~-~ to me tha t--~~--the new Electi v:-~~~~:~:~-

!I

I'

which Arthur has, we're going to abolish the old Article

: II

and this is going to substitute. Wouldn't that care of

4I

any am.'1'\c!hn.ents to the old Article?

II 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

6 III'

That'. the feeling that I had, but I don't know.

II 7 JUDGE CALHOUN,

8 !i

I'll tell you if you bring it in the Superior Court

II

() II Ii

of the Southern Circuit, I'll handle it.

10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Judge, what are you going to do when it gets to the

Supreme Court? We can just dispense with this Article.

JUSTICE NICHOLS:

Well, I'll uphold Marcus.

10 .~ u'"
1

17 ~
18 II
1" ! J9 "
i
20 Ii
21
22 I
23 II
24 Ii
Ii
Il'I
25
i

We discus.ed that possibility with Charlie and Jim Pratt and Cindy and Marty--all of us discussed that and of course it is somewhat analogous to the way they treated individual amendments to the old 1877 Constitution when the 1945 one was adopted. But we were a little leery of banking on that to solve the situation because it's not exactly the same thing. Here you're dealing on with an Article. Even 90, it's a new Article and it could--you could--you could argue both ways on that. We
J realized that but we didn't want to--you couldn't depend

r----- :~- it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - .... ------------_. --~--_..

PAGE 21

2 I GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

3 Ii

Let's see and--what about the policy of let's try

II

to put a self-destruct clause on it where this won't come

4 II

5 II

up and it will be debated at that time. Is there any ob-

Ii

6 II

jection to doing that? Then at least we could put it on

II

'7 II

the table and let the legislature dispose of it one way

ii

'I

s i:

or the other.

<:) JUDGE CALHOUN:

10

That's a good idea.

"z
11 ::< GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

."o.-.

@!"~I12 ~

All right.

JUSTICE NICHOLS,

Do you want to-

----,'

14 ~

I move that.

I-
'<"l
J:

IS ...!.), SEN. HOLLOWAY:

':"l 16 ~

Second.

oz

<l
17 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

18

It's bean moved and seconded. Any discussion? If

19

not, all those in favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.) All

20

opposed? [No response.] Will y'all see that that's--that

21

we have someone to offer that?

22 23 24 I
i I
l. ..

All right. The next thing that we have is to--on the
I
Articles that we had that were tentatively adopted at the I
last meeting of the Select Committee and we had a Style ant
.J Draft C~~:it~_~~_~~_~=_:_~_~_ap~_ointedto _~_~~~.~_:_._bac~_~~:

2

be necessary. And we had no changes that were recommended

3

for Article x. If--I think if there's no discussion on

4

Article X, we'd be in order now to just adopt it. We've

5

adopted it tentatively.

6 MR. BOLTON!

7

I move that we adopt it as the--

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

9
All right. The motion's made that it be finally

1(J
adopted. Any discussion or--a second?

'z"

1I

le-.:
oa.

REP.

SNOW:

(~SV~

12 ~~"'

I second i t.

,~-,.~ ~ 'lOVER""~ "US8EE,

14 ).
l-
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z 17 :ii

Second. Any di8cussion? All in favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.J All opposed? [NO response.] It's unani mously adopted.
All. right. On Article II, I want to calIon Jim

18
Pratt, Assistant Attorney General, for discussion on pro-

19 ;

posed changes to Article II that he assisted the Attorney

20 ,I

General and the Style and Draft~ng Committee. Mr. Pratt?

21 I MR. PRATT:

221
II
23 II

I believe each member of the Select Committee has in their folder a. page and a half memorandum prepared by the

24 II
I,
25 IIII
IL .._.

staff which puts the matters more concisely and better

than I could.

....

.

PAGE 23 q--------------- ---------- -----------------------------------

I

But basically there were a large number of decis-

sions made by the subcommittee. These are just some
1 II

3 [I

things that were raised and some have been raised by

4 ,I

committees of the General Assembly and since they were

II

apt to be brought up perhaps as proposed amendments to

: II
I'

the proposed Artieles when they get to the General Assem-

II

bly, the staff felt that the members of the Select Com-

: II
!I

mittee ought to at least. have an opportunity to look at

9 II

these particular things sinee they were apt to eome up

10
..,
z

and make an individual decision on them

MR. BOLTON:

Governor, do you want Jim to go ahead and explain

the proposals?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

J50
,,'
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16 ~
a r.
17 ~

I'll tell you, if you don't mind, let's all just read this first and then let him explain it. I have not read it. I'm sorry. [Brief pause.] If you've completed

18 II
I'

reading this, we'll start then--Arthur, do you want to

19 i

IIiI

just go through all of them or--

20

II
I,

MR.

BOLTON:

21 !I
II

Yes. Jim, just go ahead and discuss each one of

22 II!

those.

II
23 I! MR. P RA TT :

'-4 '!II
IIi'
25 )! I,I L_ _

Well, just very briefly, this was meant to be pretty
__~_~!e~_and I could elaborate on some of the .=easons for thel,

,._-- ... ----_....---_.-
I

-------P-A-G--E-2-4---1

i

you know, staff's recommendations and discussion.

I

2

But the first one on duration of residency, the

3

I

present Constitution provides that the General Assembly

I
I

has the power to establish a residency requirement but

that it has to be at least thirty days. Now, there is a

serious Federal constitutional problem as to residency

requirements. A decision of the U. S. Supreme Court

knooked out Tennessee'. requirement of a year in the

10

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I 20
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21

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23 I
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24 1'1

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11

state and six months in the county and thirty days in the city. That was declared unconstitutional in an opinion that pretty nearly went the whole distance and said you could have no residency requirements at all.
Now, there--because the facts ot that case were narrower than a very short residency requirement, I'm not able to say with absolute certainty what the court's attitude would be were a court challenge to be--come on if Georgia decided to enact a thirty-day requirement but the chances are very strong that the court would adhere to the dicta in this earlier decision and say that no resi dency requirements at all could be imposed.
Now, the present Constitution doesn't mandate any such requirement but it does authorize the General Assembly to establish one. So, really, the issue for the Com-
mittee and for the General Assembly, as a whole, would be I
whether Georgia is interested enouqh to establish this
.__

PAGE 25

2

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:::~~o:.::q:::.::::::::y9: :::::.:::tP:::::::~:"f::.--1 U

3 I'

an almost certain Federal court challenge over its consti-I

II

i 4 I, I'II

tutionality. One point that should be made in that con-

5 If

nection is that we have a thirty-day reiistration cutoff I

6

II
I,I

which has been clearly held to be constitutional. This I

7 I,Ii

is--this gives us the administrative protection and,

8

really, most of the practical effect of a residency re-

')
quirement.

10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Well, could I interrupt you and ask you a question?

I thought in the one that you have that you had provided

for that the legislature could pass a residency require~

ment?

1S

MR. "J
C1

PRATT:

'"~.)
1{) ttl

"o"

That's right.

:<'

MR. BOLTON:

We do.
19
MR. PRATT:

The question is whether that should be retained.
21
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 22
"Every person who is a citizen of the United States

IL24

:1
:1

Ii

2.\

~

and a resident of Georgia as defined by law, at least eighteen years of age, not disenfranchised by this Article ~~,~_~wh~ meets minimum residency. requirements as .. establisher

ir- ------------ ------.-----

PAGE 26
---..-- - - - - .----.---.-----.-- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1

I

II

by law shall be entitled to register .. " Why not leave

I
i

21

it to the legislature? I mean I think this is what the I

I

3 II

constitution is for is to give some broad powers to them.

4

If the Supreme Court of the United States rules that

1

5 II

fifteen days, forty-five days or some set time is the

6 Ii

figure, then the legislature could simply by statute

II

7

I
I

adopt that if they wanted to.

II

8

Ii
II MR.

PRATT;

9 Ii II "
10
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12 ~"'
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Right. The reason that the staff raised it is because of the 1972 decision which went fairly clearly to say that no requirement could be held constitutional, although it drew a distinction between new residents and older r.sidents which would violate equal protection and

14 .;._. ~
15 c,
t9
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17 "'"

if the court'. attitude is such, as it probably is, that we cannot have--there can be no durationa! residency requirement. And to keep an authorization for it would be surplusage in the Georgia Constitution.

IS
JUDGE CALHOON:

19
When the pre.ent mood of the court changes, as we've

20
all seen, I see nothing wrong with leaving it in there.

21
The legislature doesn't have to do anything about it.

22
MR. BOLTON:

23 That's the sole purpose.

24 i

L___~~_~~. I~_ feel~_ng i GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
25

that-=-he__

of the Committee, to leave

PAGE 27
'_.-'
legislature would have author- II

All right. Okay. Any objec-

tio~, then, as to leaving that as previously adopted? All

right?

MR. PRATT:

The second area has to do with mental incompetency.

The present Constitution has--from the 1877 language, dis-

enfranchises "idiots and insane persons." And there was

9 II'I,

pretty general agreement on the Article subcommittee that

10

there should be no disenfranchisement, at least without

some kind of judicial proceeding. Because it shouldn't

be up to a poll officer to just eyeball somebody walking

in and say, "You don't look like you ought to be able to

vote." and then have the review machinery from that.

There was pretty general agreement on that.

There was quite a bit of doubt in the Article subcom-

mittae as to whether, in practice, a judicial determina-

tion in this area would be of any practical use. It

wouldn't have the effect of determining property rights

like a probate court guardianship. It would simply be--
21
it would only work if somebody's willing to go out ahead

---,------- PAGE 28

- - - - - - - - - _ . _ . - -_ ~-_._----------_.-

----- . - - - . - . _ - - - - . - - - _ . _ - - .._--.--

II

was worth the trouble and possible problems it might cause

i!

2

in view of the fact that it would seldom, if ever, be

3
!

used. It really would not result in a question if--some-

I

4 II

body had raised the question about large st;a~e mental

5 Ii

health facilities like Central State and there was some

II
worry that there might be a lot of undue influence in a
6 1,1

7 II
il

certain part of the state that might have an effect on an

g Ii

I

eleotion. That problem is taken care of in other ways in

<)
the present statute by determining residency of persons

JO

who live in those institutions or provisions regarding

un4ue influence. So the issue is whether the Constitu-

tion ought to try to disenfranchise peopl~ who have been

determined to be mentally incompetent.

E~ MR. BOLTON:

<l
r

15 ,:,
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:;,

The question for this Committee, as I underatant it--

16 ~
Q

Jim your correct me, and Frank~-in Paragraph III in Sect!

Z

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17 :;;

I, would be whether or not we wanted to take out the words

18
or leave the words in the third and fourth line, "or who

19
has been judicially determined to be mentally incompetent,

20

-.aleS8 the diIJability hal been removed." And what this

21
would have the effect of, it would remove mental incompe-

tence as a bar--

GOVERNOR BUSBEEz

L 25 [I

That means everybody at Milledgeville and allover,
~ould just vote?

1--.--------------.--------------.-._----MR. BOLTON:

-!-)A-G-E--2-9---l

2

That's right. Am I right?

3 MR. PRATT:

4I

well, they really can now. Unless a poll officer

5 Ii
II

takes the initiative to refuse them the rigWt to vote and

6 II

that--we had some poll officers talk to that in the sub-

II

7 II

committee and that--nobody could ever remember that hap-

8 IIi;li

pening. And if it did happen, it would be kind of an in-

I

9

il
L'I

dividual decision based on--

10 MR. BOLTON,

I want to qet the issue, though, before this Com-

mittee. You see, we put these words "or who has been

judicially determined to be mentally incompetent, unless

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24

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the disability has been removed," in in this subcommittee.

well, what--by putting this into the Constitution, I

think most of the--even the way it's in here right now~-

that the people at Milledgeville co~ld vote because under

our Mental Health Code, they~re not mentally incompetent.
I
And what I'm trying to say is we have in effect, in writinr

this Article the way it was and this was written by the
I
subcommittee--we have in effect set up a whole new pro- I

cedure for determining whether a person is mentally com- I

petent to vote. And that's the only purpose that that

I

I

I mental incompetence would be for; is that right?

I
I think

tha t'. right.

PAGE 30

PRATT:

2

The procedure would have to be established by sta-

3

tute but it would have no purpose other than to take away

I

-+

II il

80mebody's right to vote. It woudln't be lik. a probate

:i

5

I'
II

court guardianship which is obviously necessary to take

II

6 I"I II

i!

care of property affairs by people who can't take care of

I'I

7

II II

II

themselves.

'i

8 I'II MR. BOLTON:

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9 Ii II

Governor, what the Ordinaries all say now 1s--and

10
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I'm not trying to belabor the point--is that they don't know--and the reason it was such an 1ssue--they don't know when somebody can't vote because there's no longer any such thing as mental incompetence under our Code.

14 >-

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They commit them to Milledgeville now and don't declare

<l

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15 ..:>

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them--

16 a~ GOVERNOR BUSBE.:

7.

17 ~

I didn't know those people voted down there, to tell

18
you the truth, so I don't know that I'm qualified to even

19
discuss this.

20 I MR. BOLTON:

21 I thiak they can.

22 MR. TIDWELL:

23 They probably don't but they can.

_J

,..-------------------_._-I
I REP. SNOW:

PAGE 31

211

Well, let's don't remind them of it.

II 3 MR. HODGKIN

4 IIII

Jim, wouldn't they vote by absentee ball,Qt because

5I

that's not their residence?

6 Iiii

county--

Ii

7 II HR. PRATT:

They would not vote in the

8 II

Yes. Each one's residence would be the residency of

9 :l ii

their home county so it's not as though you get a big con-

11 l-0: '::> 0_ '""' I,..!
~

centration voting in one area. The difficulty is that'if this procedure--the difficulty is that if we carried this through and set up a procedure, not that it wouldn't be good in intent, you know, to make sure that elections were

15 J.l

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16 7u'",

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as intelligent as possible, but it would only be practically used in like as individual case where somebody had a grudge against somebody else, possibly somebody seeking office and try to embarass them by filing a petition to declare them incompetent--

GOVERNOR BUSBE!:
20
Let me ask you, could you take care of it this way--
21
and again, I'm JUBt saying the Constitution is supposed to
22
give some authority to the legislature. You could put

this in like this--to read: "NO person may register to
24
vote who has been convicted of a felony designated by law
25
as involving moral turpitude, except upon completion of

PAGE 32

the .entence, or who has been jUdicially determined to be

2

mentally incompetent, where"--

3 MR. BOLTON:

4I
[I

Governor, you could say, "or who is mentally incompe-

II

5 II

tent." And that would leave it up to the General Assembly

II
6 I' GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

II

7 II

" or who has been determined to ~e mentally incom-

8 Ii

IiiI

petent as determined by law . " That's what I'm trying to

9I I'iI

.ay. And then you could--it just looks to me if a person

10
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'"

is mentally incompetent, they ought not to vote. Or at lea.t the legislature should be able to pass legislation. PRATTa

Yes. What the staff was trying to do is--1 think the

pre.ent language would in effect leave it up to the Gen-

L ,"
Cl

eral Assembly.

0'

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16

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GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:

z

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What's the pre.ent language?

How does it read?

18 I: MR. PRATT:

19 I[,i

It talks about a procedure.

20 MR. BOLTON:

21

" who has been jUdicially determined to be mentally

22

incompetent, unle the disability has been removed."

23

I
I

II MR. PRATT:

I

I
24 I

It would be up to the General Assembly, as in all

:5 1[1
L

PAGE 33
11--------------------- -- -------.---------------.------- .--.-------- ---,

I

the Civil Practice Act.

I

2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I
" . or who has been jUdicially determined to be men~

tally incompetent . " That would mean the legislature

could pass any law and then a oourt would review it. Is

6

that it--under this language?

7 MR. PRATT:

8
I

That's right.

I

9 II GOVERNOR BUSBEEI

10

what's wrong with that?

TIDWELL:

I think we wanted the Committee to realize that this

would be an extremely complex piece of legislation that

would have to be drafted to implement this that probably

15 ':,
<:l

never would be used.

'::">

J6

~ "oz'

GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:



J7 ~

Well, then what wo~d it hurt?

If you gave the legisti

I

18 II

Iature the right twenty years from now if they want to

I

II

19 I:
,II'

try and accept the problem.

20 I MR. TIDWELL:

21 II

Nothing except why maadate it if it's not going to

22

I

accomplish--

23 I:1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

'i

24 'I

We're not mandating it.

Ii

25 Ii JUDGE CALHOUN l

L

... _ ... _ .. .. ~

_

r--------------------------------------------- PAGE 34 ------------_._----------------------------,

II

Suppose you have a situation where a man's found not

2

guilty by reason ot insanity of a crime? He's been jUdi-

3

aia11y determined to be mentally incompetent, hasn't he?

MR. BOLTON:

He's only been determined to be insane at the time

of the commission of that crime.

MR. TIDWELLr

We really don't know what mental incompetence is.

9 I": JUDGE CALHOUN r

10
"z

Well, if you want to leave that up to the legislaturei
,
and--I don't believe--

GOVERNOR BUSBEBr

If they don't have to act, in most cases they don't

uatil they have to.

1) -3

"'::"> JUDGE CALHOUN:

16 .~...
o

I don't see that this language would require the

z



17 ~

legislature to set up a separate procedure to cover

18 I'

whether or not a person i8--

19
MR. BOLTON:

20 II
21
II

well, the reason they're saying incompetent to vote, Judge, is because there ain't no way to declare anybody

22 I:
23 Ii
II

mentally incompetent, if I under.tand our mental health laws. I just wanted y' all to be aware of the problem.

M II JUDGE CALHOUN:

25 !I
IIIL_

Okay.

Here'. a gu_y who ha. declared as a part of a

r---------------_.

PAGE 35
--------------~

.

special plea of insanity--the jury says he's insane at thel

2

time of the trial. The election's the next day. Are you

3

going to let him vote? I don't believe he could vote,

4 III,

I
under this. He's been jUdicially dete~mined to be insane.;

5 III ,

pro<~dure What I'm aaying i8 you oan havo 80mo

to dotormint

6

him mentally incompetent which has nothing to do with

i

7

voting but which would bar him from voting.

I

I

8 MR. PRATT:

() ii

I

I:1,

I think, Your Honor, that would be an accidental

I

.-

10

happening. And I'm not saying a thing like that may not

1['

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happen, but this kind of procedure is apt to get away from

Q.

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you if that kind of challenge is brought up. that could be raised--

I
Another thin~
!

14 >-
:;; JUSTICE NICHOLS I

1:

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16 ~
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Let me ask you a preliminar question. In any event, under the law as it is or as it would be changed. it would still have to be initiated by a poll worker or some-I

IS II
\i
19 ,I
II
20 II 'I'
21
2_; iI
I
23 I,I

body when they went in to vote to say. "Well, now, wait a I

minute. You can't be voting because you've been declared I
I
mentally incompetent and we' rEt not going to permi t you to
i
vote." well, they'd have to prove that he's mentally inI I
competent. Well. they'd go get this verdict that you werel

talking about where he's declared innocent on account of

I
I

24 II

it- - b ut somobody has got to rof so tho quo 0 tion at tho

iL 25

!,o~~~-:-=..!.~~_~l worker. Milledg~- And if somebody gets out of

PAGE 36
.. -'~---'-'---"----------'---
home and votes--not by absentee

his home county and votes, who's

3

going to question it unless somebody at the polls when he

4

goe8 in to vote says--and knows him. That's the whole

thing.

MR. BOLTON:

And that's the problem we talked about. The same

way with felons--I mean, prisoners.

JUDGE' 'CALHOUN:

10
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1I ,
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ou.. 12 ~
(~~r)~MR~ . 14 i i:-~ v. "); 15 .:,

Of course the question could come up on registration too. Becaus. his name's got to be on the list before they let him vote. PRATT:
It--as long as 80meone took the trouble to initiate a judicial proceeding to develop and define mental incom-

L <l
17 :::;

petents, whoever they are, and to get them stricken from the registration rolls and to have a regular procedure

for picking them up, and--you're dealing with--of course,

you know, you get some pretty strong feelings. I mean if

20 someone should come into my house and say, well--you know,

21

~') II

father, mother or some relative--you know, don't follow

procedures to insure that this person can't vote.

II ~:3 I,Ii JUDGE CALHOUN:

: L._ ._. a proBcUe'dt~Y~_Oe_u._c_a_n_'_t_d_o_t_h_at until the legislature sets up

I think we're just like we were on residency

PAGE 37

anything to leave it in there.

l

Let me ask this. I think we covered it a moment ago

but we're not in the same posture as we would be, say, if

students at the University of Georgia who establish resi-

dency there and vote in the city elections. Would the

folks in Milledgeville be able to be organized in some

degree as residents of Milledgeville and go and vote and

control the City of Milledgeville? 10 MR. PRATT:

Not under the present statutory law because they 8ay

the residency of people in a state institution applies to

Reidsville as well--is their home county. And they're not

,~ .. '<"l

present in Baldwin or whatever county for that purpose.

]:

is ~

" GOVERNOR BUS~EE:

:':">

1(~ ~

w
'z"

Well, we have the problem on that like at Grady

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Hospital. You know, they all show up over there and say, i

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19 I
i

20 :1
,"I

21 II

22

!'II
I,

I:

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24- II

we're residents of Fulton County now. And the courts havel

said, regardless of what the Georgia legislature says

tl

about institutions that, fellow, you're a resident anywher

you want to be a resident the minute you want to be a
I
resident. And I say to you, if one person in MilledgeVill+
I
were to go through that hospital with a petition and sign

those folks up down there, they could all register to vote

25 IIIL__ --everyone of them register to vote in Baldwin County. An

PAGE 38

I I
I don't see where it hurts to let the legislature, if the I

2

II
legislature wants to try and tackle a very difficult prob-

3I

lem, say that you can't go down to Milledgeville and sign

4I I

up all those people to vote in a local election down there

5I

--if the legislature wants to address the problem. And I

I

6I
i

believe the legislature can addre it the way you have it

7

in your tentative draft.

8 MR. PRATT:

')
The way it was tent.atively I approved, the legislature

10

could address it but--

SNOW:

Well, I move that we keep it the way it's tentative-

ly adopted.

CALHOUNI

)~: .~)

'.J

I second the motion.

:'"J

16 ~

) JUSTIce NICHOLS:

z

..:

17 :ii

(Indicating affirmative response.)

18 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

19 IiI Ii
20 II

Motion made, .econded and third.d. A.ny objection? All tho in favor, say aye? [A chorus of ayes.] All

21 I

opposed? [No response.] Y'all did a good job the first

23
I
24 i
25 II 1

go-around, Arthur. We'll leave it alone. All right. The Chair's trying to remain impartial on these. I'm notall right, do you want to go into Differential Restoration of Riqhts?

r---------------------

PAGE 39

II MR. PRATT:

2 !III

The third one is something that has already been

II

3 !\
4 IIii
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5 !I II
6 I!,I ,[
7 H'I I[ il
8 ii
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raised by a General Assembly committee. And it's just that there's a different standard required in two areas. If someone is convicted of a felony, the right to vote is restored upon the completion of the sent_nee. Now, when you get to the ease of an ~fficeholder of some sort Or somebody who wants to be a candidate for office or some

appointment, it would have to be an affirmative restora-

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tion of rights under the present system by the Board of Pardons and Paroles. And a question was raised by a member of the General Assembly as to whether this was consistent or, you know, whether the distinction should be maintained. All that is said about it is that there is a reason for it in that the potential harm done by an office holder is much greater than by an individual casting a vote. So the Committee just might want to decide whether

18

II

19

II
II

or not that is a sufficient basis for distinquishing the two standards.

il 20 I, MR. BOLTON:

II

21

II

In other words, the subcommittee said that if you gotl

il

22 I'I

out of prison and your sentence is complete--this would

I,I'

23

Ii

include the probated sentence--that you at that time, as

24 II

I"i

soon as you were out of prison; completed serving your

~-_._-- -, .:-
.. J
sentence and your probation, that you were then eligible

l PAGE 40
--t:- vot~-~-:e4 ~he logic behied ~ha~ va., from a practical

2

.~ae4poin~, ~h. v.y people move aroue4 nov, you cae't tell:

3

whether they've ever had their disabilities restored or I

I 4 II

5

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I
not. But insofar as an officeholder is concerned, if a
man wanted to run--an illustrationw,~s used, 8ay, for

:i

6 II

county Treasurer, or some office like that--for such an

Ii

7

II
'I

office, that he had been convicted of embezzlement five

8I !

times, that he should have his disabilities removed before

9 iil'

ha would be ~ligible to hold that office. In other words,

10
..,

it's not automatic for an office seeker but it is auto-

z

11 ...
c.:
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matic tor a voter, is that right?

~@ -".,~ 12 '~.' MR. PRATT: That's the issued which was raised and I thought the

14 .~..

members of the Committee ought to decide whether or not

'<

1:

15 .0
':':"">

they'd maintain it or not.

16 ~o REP. SNOW:

z

17 :;;

I move it be maintained.

JUDGE CALHOUN:

19

X second the motion.

20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

21

There's been a motion made and seconded. Any dis-

22

cuss ion?

23

I
I,I' REP.

CONNELL:

24 II II II
25 ~

Why would it be put under the Board of Pardons and Paroles to determine this restoration?

r---------.-.-------- _.
j MR. BOLTON:

PAGE 41

- - - - - --_ - "--'-~'---"----

...

2

II'

That's their duty now.

I3 JUSTICE NICHOLS:

4 II

What you're in effect saying, that a convicted felon,

Ii

upon the completion of hie sentence, has a right to vote

but not to hold office?

BOLTON:

That'. right.

'i GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

]0

unless he has his rights restored.

11 "tz MR. PRJI.TT: o <>. "' The last one is--

BUSBEE:

Well, what about disposing of that? There,s a mo-

tion.

"'"";~)
16 ~

Okay.

<)

z

17 ~" MR. PRATT:

Is there any objection? Designation of Crimes.

If not, it remains as is.

1I~ !I
II
] 9 [I
!!
II
20

The feeling, by some members of the subcommittee, was that presently it's pretty unclear what a crime involving moral turpitude is. And there are individual instances

211

where there are disagreements and they thought they'd been

22 II

giving inadequate guidance to poll officers in deciding

23 III' I
II

who to register and who's allowed to vote. And, in hopes

24 I!I, II
25 II

I of resolving that ambiguity, they wanted to charge the
General Assembly with the responsibility of coming up with

iL__ _.

IT------------

PAGE 42
--~------------1

!I

a laundry list of crimes so that they would be some place I

2

I definitely in the Code or in the lawa at to e.actly which

3
4I
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5 11
II
6I
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8 1'1
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ones were in and which were out. Now, essentially that's! a transfer of responsibility from the Judicial Branch to I the General Assembly. And that's one thing. A reason why --as to not to have a designation made by the General A.sembly in relation to the Voting Rights Act and that is, if we do it this way and the General Assembly passes the statute. And the Civil Right Commission of the Department of Justice decides that the effect of a particular disenfranchisement is to dilute voting power, is the way it's

prohibited by Federal law, then they could object to it

and the Georgia disenfranchisement would become unenforoe-

14 >-
I-

able as a matter of law. So it would involved the Federal

~

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government in a much larger way than if this designation

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16 ~....
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stays out

<>:

17 ;;; JUDGE CALHOUN:

.18

sut what if say in this Article now, you say a felon

19

and that's a person convicted of a felony. There's no

20

question about what are felonies. If you leave it that

21

way, I don't think you have any problem. If you're con-

22
23 I

viced Cf a misdemeanor, you can vote; if you're convicted of a felony, you can't vote.

II 24 ,MR. PRATT:

25 L______

Well, there's an additional qualification.

It has to

w----- ------.--.-.----- . ..._. ----------. -----~---------.-----.---.-.------.-.-.-------

PAGE 43

II

be one of the flonies which involve moral turpitude.

2 \ JUDGE CALHOUN:

3I I'II

Is that what it says in your other Article? A felony

4 II

involving moral turpitude?

11

5 '1,'1 MR. BOLTON:

il

6 "il I

." of a felony designated by law as involving moral

"

turpitude " The question, I think, that the Committee

will decide, does this Committee want to take out the

words "designated by law" or not?
10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
I think the question is this, that presently it

does say a crime involving moral turpitude. All right.

Now, that is a judieial determination. All right. Now,

they're saying, why not take it out and just let the legis

".l:">: j () ~

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1 'J

~

lature go through every crime and all crimes that we have on the books anywhere--anybody's crime and designate: "This is moral turpitude, this ain'~ aoral tu~pitude."

IX
I wrote a case note back in 1949 in the Georgia Bar Journa

19 i

and I don't believe that's possible. I think a court is

II

20 il

II

much better equipped on an individual basis to consider

21 IIII
II

this an~ with all jUdicial precedents and--

II

Ii 11 Ii JUSTICE NICHOLS:

23 [i

II

And probably has already been judically determined.

24 I[
II GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

25 11 .

.There's case law allover there

_

PAGE 44

BOLTON:

I move that on Paragraph II, Section II, that the

words--Jim, see if I'm technically right on this--~desig-

nated by law" after the word "felony,""'-and it would then

read "or who has been convicted of a felony involving

moral turpitude ... " To cause the words "designated by law

Ii
7 II

as" be deleted.

I'

,1\,1
i!

GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:

Ii

So then the--from the Committee version.

Is "designated by law" in the Committee version?

10 MR. BOLTON:

Yes. That would take it off the General Assembly and

put it back where it is now, with the courts--what is a

felony involving moral turpitude?

;: REP. SNOW:

'<
1:
15 .~.,

I second your motion

:'>"

16 '~" GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

oz

<:(

17 :;;

Let's get this clear.

18 II MR. BOLTON:

Proposed Article II, Paragraph II, starting off, "No

:: I

person who is not a registered voter, or who has bean con-

21

victed of a felony de~igna~ed by law as"--I'm moving that

22 23 III

we delete "d4!!liigna ted by law as" so it would read "is con- II

,I

victed of a felony involving moral turpi tude," which would I

24 I"
il leav. the law--except we did t .ake out some of this arChai]

L 25

____ ~~~gu~ge_ Of--

_

PAGE 45

---------- --- - - --- ~ - --~~----

~~~ -~--~-~-~--~~---~

-~-~----- -~--~----~----~---~---~--~------ --------~-----~----

II MR. PRATT:

I

2I

It talked about bribery, larceny--

3 MR. BOLTON:

4 !"1

--briberY1 larceny. But we delineated any involving

5

il
II

moral turpitude and this just makes it clearer.

6

I I GOVERNOR

BUSBEEJ

I

7 I,

All right. The motion's made and seconded. I think

I'

8 II II

it's clear that the motion is that the words, "designated

I'

9

Ii
II

by law" be deleted, the effect ot which, moral turpitude

10

;-

would still be a jUdicial determination rather than going

Cl Z

11 ...
ix
o
a.
w

through by statute and trying to point it out.

"

For the purpose of discussion, I'll offer a substi-

tute that reads--takes out everything except felonies and

15 ,~
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16 ~
az
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say, "one Who is convicted of any felony." And you would leave in there somebody who'. been convicted of assault and would not be able to vote until they completed their

18
sentence.

19
MR. BOL'CON:

20
Well, there's a practical reason now that that

21
doesn't--we're dealing with the Civil Right Division of

22
the Justice Department. If we take--just put telonies in

23
24 I
25 IL_ _

there, we're going to--we know--I guarantee you we're going to run head on into trouble. If we take out--Ieave moral turpitUde out, we're going to run into bad trouble

~----_.

I

on the whole thing.

2 JUDGE CALHOUN:

Do you see what

PAGE 46

3

Yeah, I'll withdraw the motion to substitute.

4

!i
il

GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:

II

5 III'

All right.

The motion is made and seconded that the

6

words "designated by law" be de~eted and it be a'jd~i~i'l

7

determination. Is there any further discussion? If not,

all those in favor say aye. (A chorus of ayes.} All

opposed? [NO response.} The motion's unanimously

10
adopted.

"z
11 le-; MR. PRATTs

.0...

12 ~
~~ ~~ .....". ~

Now, the last thing was on some technical matters. I know it's dangerous to say that things are merely tech-

14 ;
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15 .:>
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16 ~
ow
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nical when you deal with something as important as this part of the Constitution, but we felt that it was pretty much a matter of just lining out the words--for example, where there is action by the General Assembly, make it

18
uniform to be "provided by law," rather than use a variety

19
words like "established by law," "provided by law."
20
MR. BOLTON:

21
To make it uniform throughout

22 I MR. PRATT:

23 ,I II
I

Just so that a court reading this wouldn't think that

2245 II,I

there .....n ht.ntlon.l reo. for different term.

lLJUS~~CE NICHOLS:

jr-----.--- . --------.-----------------.------------.---------------- P-AG--E-- 4-7------l

il

Because a court might construe that there was a

2 Ii
II
3 II
II
41IIIIIi MR.
,I
5 :1
Ii II
6 Ii MR.
II
'7 :1 :1
'I
8 II
il MR.

reason in one place to say "established" instead of "provided."
PRATT:
That's right. And there's no difference intended.
BOLTON:
I move that that--
CONNELL:

() I;

Ii

Second.

)0

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

"z

11 I'o"

It's moved and seconded. Any objection?

"-

(t:;W/~, i12 "~'

it's adopted. All right. now.

MR. PRATT:

If not,

14
I have a draft that is--the staff went over to make

15 ~,

it letter perfect that makes only thatone change--I mean,

the technical change and the "designation" thing we just

voted on. So everyone oan have a copy to see what the

18 19

I'
IilI

Committee has

il GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

done.

20 II

Would it be in order, now because we have in effect--

21 ,I

il

well, we did make one amendment. Aren't we in a position I

II 22 Iii

i

il
ii

now to entertain a motion to adopt Article II.

23 II

i! MR. BOLTON:

I

24 III
Ii 25 ii!L

We'll just pass it out and let you see it. Then I I
thin~, move that _we adopt it. We have greatly simplified, I

2 PAGE 48 rGO~E~::B::::::~:~~ of the COnBt~~ti~n-.-----. _.....-----_.-.-.. -----

3I
II
4 'I
5I i
6I
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7 II
II
8 IIIi I'
9 Ii :,
10

You have before you the--a draft that supposedly refleets the action that we've just taken in going over proposed Article II tentative recommendation. This would be as amended. I think it would be in order now to entertain a motion to make a final adoption of Article II, as being the one that's just been presented to us. The motion's made~ it's been seconded. Is there any discussion on the final adoption of Article II? If not, all those in

favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.) All opposed? [No re-

sponse.} It's unanimously adopted.

The next item we have--Marty, you--before that, I

.~ ..

think I have Frank Edwards, though, concerning the changes!

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15 .0
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to the resolution creating the Select Committee. Frank,

lX

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16 ~ w Q

do you have a proposal?

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17 ~ MR. EDWARDS s

18 II
19 II'
I
20
21

Yes. we discussed this very briefly at the last

i

meeting and the only point in contention was whether you.rrI

going to have just one member, for example, of this Com- I
I
I
mittse on the stUdy committees. And it seemed--I gathered:

that the consensus of the members was that it be left up
I
to the Select Committee itself to decide what to do about I I
it. So that part is changed from the version that's in I
_i
your little packaqe here : __ .:. j~~: ad_~~~_ this sentence to.J

PAGE 49
'I member or
I

members of the Committee to each of the study committees I

i

created."

So it means it you want to have two members on

I
I

it--of the Select Committee on each study committee, you ,
j can, or whatever. It leaves it up to the Select Co...dtte.
And then one other point which we discussed on this I

change was to clarify those pay provisions where were a

little ambigous when we first started. And these are the
!I

') !i

only two changes in it.

10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE I

Are you talking about introducing this again this

year to make those two changes?

EDWARDS:

Right.

)) ~GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

"0):

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! () r.o
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:::1

Is there any discussion of those two changes? On the

Z

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resolution? I think again the motion is that we cause thi

PI II

to be introduced at the next session, all right.

19 il MR. I' 'I
20 :i
il 2J I, IilI
221

BOLTON:
This would permit someone to of these subcommittees other than mittee?

serve as a member

chairman of one of this Com-

I 23 MR. EDWARDS:

I'II
24 II

Right.

II,

II 25 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
I L -__

---------_._------------------_._----

__J I

PAGE 50

Or we could have any number? It's just up to us as

2

to what we want to have.

3 MR. EDWARDS:

It's up to the Select Committee.

MR. BOLTON:

I move that we adopt--propose this.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

The motion is made that the Select Committee sponsor

10
"z
II

these two changes t~ the resolution creating the Select Committee. Any discussion? If not, all those in favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.) All opposed? {No response.,

It's adopted.

The next thing we have--is that all you have on that?

MR. EDWARDS:

15 .,

":':">

16 'z"

aw

z

17

c"-:
OJ

That's all I had. Well, I have--we have one on the effective date of the constitutional amendments I just might mention right now and get that over with. And that'

18 II ii II 19
II

20 II

21 III

I'

22 II

II

23

II
Ii

~4 II ,I
l_ :5 II

--that was talked about in conn.c~ion with the Article that Al Holloway chaired. Under the present constitution, if you're going to have a different effective date for an amendment, it's got ~o be in the language that's included in the Constitution itself. So all we did here is say-unless the amendment itself--and we added this--or the resolution proposing the amendment shall provide otherwise
an amendment to this Constitution shall be come effectiv~_J

\1'--'"
II
II 2
\1
Ii
3
4 III,
s I' I 1
6 "II
II
7 II 8 II

PAGE 51

l on the first day of January folloWing its ratification.

In other words, for example, right now under this July

I

1st date on the Elective Franchise Article, we're going to

have to put that in the language of the Article in the

Constitution itself. This will change that so that in the

future when we get all these Articles to be revised,

we'll just put that in the resolution proposing it without

out having ~o put it in the Constitution itself.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

10

All right. So what do you need on that?

'z"

11 6; MR. EDWARDS:

o

"w'-

12 ~

A motion

(~.J) ..,.. '.V~ /\~~-_.- (1-...

~
GOVERNOR BUSBU,

that

somebody

introduce

this.

-'

14 ~

l-

All right. You heard the proposal. Would anybody

V>
<l :x;

15 ~
:"'>"

make that in the form of a motion?

16

~
a

REP.

SNOW:

Z

) 7 g<;l

I move.

'1'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

19 '

It's been moved, second?

Ii 20 !I REP. CONNELL:
I
Second.

22
GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

23 Second. Any discussion? All those in favor y aye.

24
[A chorus of ayes.) All oppsed? [No response.) It's

I unanimously adopted. You 're .~~_ing_r~al well; do~o~want

r,-- - - - - - -.- - - - - PAGE S2 - - - - ---------_..._. - - - ----_._ .. _ - - - - - - - - - - - _.. _--_.

I

to stop on that?

II2 MR. EDWARDS,

3 II

Yes, I'm through.

I:

ii

4 :iii GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

5 If

Ii

Well, the next one, Marty, you had a matter, I think,

(-) Ii

'I I,

to bring up at this time.

Ii

II 7 MR. HODGKINS:

X Ij

The only thing I had to bring up was--wayne, at the

9

last meeting of the Judiciary Committee, they mentioned

]0
l? Z
11 I-
oe<
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"

perhaps bringing in some out-of-state experts to talk about some of the experiences their states have had in revising Judiciary Articles; scheduling the Article to--

drafting up the legislation and ~ome of the problems that

they had run in to. And the only thing, I'd like is, if

"a:
~
16 .Z.. Cl z
17 ~

it would be all right at some point to pay if we have to. Hopefully we wouldn't have to but if we paid their expenses to come and talk with the Committtee.

II 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

19 II I,

Are' you planning for this Committee to operate until

20 II

after the General Assembly?

21 22

II II MR.

HODGKINS:

Ii

YeaA. It won't meet until--

23 II

[I GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

24 II !j il Ii
25 Iii1..__ .

I think what we ought to do on that is defer this until. w_e_ get through the legislature; see how we've fared

- " - - " - " _ . _ - - , . - .. - - - ~ - ~ - - - -~-.---------------.---_._.---

PAGE 53

---.

with the constitutional amendment and then crank up from I

there, unless you want somebody to come down here and

talk to somebody during the legislature.

MR. HODGKINS:

No, not during the ses.ion.

JUSTICE NICHOLS:

Let me throw this out, Wayne, for your benefit and

anybody else's information.

II

I

9

II
!

REP.

SNOW:

10

Yes, sir.

Do you know Bo Cole?

JUSTICE NICHOLS:

Bo Cole has offered to assist--but anyway, he worked

on tftis thing in Alabama and he's an expert in it and he

had told me that he would be glad to asslet in any way at

15 ,~

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10

'11
Z

0

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anytime and all they'd have to do is call on him. And he is an expert, as you know on this and he'd be glad to give his services. 1 know he's with the State Court Cen-

18 II!'

ter and he'. stationed here now. He was out in Denver.

lq
il
20 I'III

And he's be glad to do anything if you want to talk to him about it. He'. an expoert on it.

21 IIII REP. SNOW:

22 :1

Fine.

II

23 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

24 III

I left out one thing. On this--I didn't dispose of

2S I

this. As far as experts, we're going to wait until the

L. .

_

.-----~----------

J

- - - - . - - - ._-------------_._..... _._---._..__._.._ - end of the session before we start out?
2 MR. HODGKINS:

PAGE 54

Yes, sir.

: II GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

I

We discussed at the last meeting about who was going

i ()

to enter these Articles, whether they were going to be

II

7 II
II

introduced in the House or the Senate. And there was--

Ii'

8 'I

according to staff, we didn't reach any conclusions of

9

what we were going to do on that.

10 MR. HODGKINS:

c, z

1i lx

Senator Holloway indicated that he wanted to intro-

()

"'..-.

/~7sv~':/' 12 ;~::

due. Article x.

~) ~ ~_;J; .m....'!. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I

14 ,:.
>-
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I

That's the one he wrote.

J' ~:;MR. HODGKINS:

~;
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. Ib ~ a~

Riqht. In the Senate

Z
\7 .X

!Xl GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

18
Arthur, what about--

19 REP. SNOW:

20
I'll introduce the other one in the House if Arthur--
21 II II 22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

I,I'
Ii
23 II

All right. Is there any objection to Article X beingl
,
introduced in the Senate and Article II being introduced

II'

24 1\

in the House and that staff cause these__t_o_b_e_l._._n_t_r_odUCed? .1

25 1~1~_.~~~OW_:

.

....._.

PAGE 55

Speaker ot to the Lieutenant Governor relative to the committees that they would be sent to? I think you were going to do that.

What I thought we would do was this, I'd like to

meet--well, we've got the Lieutenant Governor in here and

when we can get the Speaker, that plus these other things.

9

You were walking in as we were dis~ussing what you would

10

do if somebody offered an amendment to Article II--the old

Article II or the old Article X. We had about five things

and the presiding officer is going to pretty well deter-

mine what's going to happen on that. And that and what

committee should they be sent to. Would it be to the

J 5 ,~
':'-:">"

same committees--

i6 ~~: REP. SNOW:

z

<l

17 &'i

And what committees that these Articles be sent to.

II 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

I I

J') IIi i.1l
20 il
Ii
II
21 :1
22 iIli I,
2:3:i~IlI i

That's what I'm talking about. But I think if you I

just let me talk wi th them about that when we get through. 1

We're just trying to be consistent wi th what we have. un-I
1
less there's any objections, that's what I'd do. You'd I'

asked me to do this at the last meeting and the staff willi

do this other that you broU9h.t . up at this meeting.

Ji

Any other business? If not, we stand adjourned.

- - - - - - - --~--

-----~-

--~-

- - - _ . _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . _ - - _. .

Ir----------------------------------

PAGE 56 -_.._._-----_ .. ~

I

(Whereupon, the above-entitled proceedings were adjourned

2 at 5:20 p.m. o'clock.J

3

C E R T I F I CAT E

4

I hereby certify, as the court reporter, that the

II

5

II
I;

statements

that

appear

in

the

proceedings

were

taken

steno-

Ii

f

Ii
II

graphically

by

me,

and thereafter reduced to typewriting by

I

7

II,
Ii

me,

and

that

this

tran8cript

is

a

true

and

accurate

record

to

Ii

8 II the best of my ability.

9 III
I

10
Cl Z
1] le< o u.
12 'e"<
~.~~r~~ 14 >I'< :t 15 ~ Cl IX :> 16 ~ 'o" Z <l 17 ;;;

DARLENE F. AKINS Certified Court Reporter
Notary Puc,lic, ::,,),g'd, Slalo at large My Com"""""" lxpiras Aug 3, 1980

18

19

20

21
I 22

" II

24 II

25 LIIII

.

I
J

INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision
Select Committee Meeting Held on Jan. 4, 1978

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 1-4-78
Proceedings. pp. 2-22
ARTICLE II: VOTING AND ELECTIONS SECTION I: METHOD OF VOTING: RIGHT TO REGISTER AND VOTE Paragraph II: Right to register and vote. pp. 24-27 Paragraph III: Exceptions to right to register and vote. pp. 27-38 SECTION II: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraph III: Persons not eligible to hold office. pp. 39-47

STATE OF GEORGIA
Proceedings of the Meeting of the Select Committee on Constitutional Revision, held in the Office of the Governor, State Capitol, Atlanta, Georgia, commencing at 3:00 o'clock, p.m. on February 15, 1978, and presided over by Governor George Busbee.
BRANDENBURG & HASTY
SC1Ef\:TIHC REPORTING 3715 COLONIAL II\AIL, DOUCLASVILLE. GFORCIA 3()J3~
942-0482 DEPOSITIONS - ARRII RATIONS - CONVENTIONS - CONFERENCES

r-----.--------.~-~-.0

II,i

C E E DIN G S

PAGE 2

2 ti GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

3 II

I'll call the meeting to order and first we'll--

II

4 Iil'

I'll call on Marty Hodgkins for a review on what the staf

III

5 I:

of the Select Committee proposes.

I"i

6 III MR. HODGKINS:

,I

I

7 II

'l'here are, just real briefly, two major thingS--Hous,

Ii

t: !i I:

445, which is the revision of Article II and that's passe

() I'I:
II

the House and is in the Senate now. And there's a hear-

10

ing on it tomorrow in the Government Operations Committee

tomorrow afternoon after the Senate adjourns. I've al-

ready spoken to Senator Kidd about it and, hopefully,

there's not too much problem with it.

Senate Resolution 217 of course has passed the--

15 ,~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

'c"r.

16 ~'"

We don't know these bills by number.

o

z

~

17 :;; MR. HODGKINS:

18

I'm sorry. That's the Article X revision--Senate

19

Resolution 217 passed but Senator Holloway might want to

Ii

20 II

make a comment on that.

'I

21 III SENATOR HOLLOWAY:

'---.-., I,I
II
ii
21 ,I

We-l, basically we passed the same bill that was approved by this group with the exception that--of the

24 !I

Fulton CountY-City Schools 'l'eachers' Retirement. That

25 II IL-

was, as you will recall--our original bill that was

.

.

. __.

. .'

...__

PAGE 3

approved by this committee left it purely at the control

2

3

4 5

6

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of the local level. Wherever the money flowed, that entity would be in control of the pension system. As you know, for years and years, the entire county has been pay ing the Teachers' Retirement portion of the Fulton County School System. And of course the entire county pays the City. Now, those folks living in the city are paying bot and from an equitable standpoint, in of and by itself, that's just something that isn't a fair proposition.
However, there are many other facets to this argumen between those two bodies in addition to this insofar as services and costs. But the Fulton County delegation was successful in amending it--leaving it like it is wher the General Assembly is a third party involved in it and a local constitutional amendment could be used to correct that situation or change it. They think that without a third party involved, they'll never get it changed and

18

they were reluctant to let it go through like we had it.

19
Ii
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20 II IIIi
21 I!

And that was the main--the major change. Another minor change was two year scholarship provision to accommodate Morehouse two-year Medical School. That was the basic

22 II

changes.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

24 !

Any questions concerning that Article1

25 i SEN. HOLLOWAY:
lI L-_

_,.



J

PAGE 4

Oh, no. There was one other--very important. You'l

2

recall that our bill placed the handling of tuition for

3

the elderly--free tuition for the elderly on a space-

4I

available in the univereity, ve put control of tbat in th1

5

Board of Regents. I met with the elderly and they didn'tl

6 ,II'

like that too much. So we compromised the situation by I

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7 II

leaving it in the control of the legislature and authoriz-

Ii

8 IIII

ing the legislature to, by statute, maintain control. We

II

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did take it out of the Constitution itself and we have

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statutorily mandated the Regents to continue that program

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GOVE RNOR BUSBEE:

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AS far as I know, we have no problem at all on that Article or that amendment. Now, if you want to speak to

14 >-
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the amendments while they're in the other House, we need

1'i "

to hear that now. Otherwise--

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16 ~... SEN. HOLLOWAY:

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17 :ii

They're arguing that same thing on the Senate floor

18

right now. We increased the retirement in the local bill

19
I: 20 I

and it went over to the House and amended it for a date-effective date; came back. Now, Todd Evans has thrown

21

that amendment on-~the House amendment, saying, prov~ ~ ,

"'-'~'- :'er I those people outside of the city limits will pay

this portion of the retirement. Of course, we're in a

peculiar parliamentary procedure there because we can't

committee. It only can be amended

__ .

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PAGF~ 5
----------------- ---- ------------------------,

one more time and a few other things like that.

\

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')1 GOVf,RNOR BUSBEE:

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I
Any other questions concerning that Article? I

Ii

4 II

don't know of any action that we need to take. That's

IIII

5

more or less a report on the status. That's all we have

II

6 II

on that one.

II

7

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The next thing we have concerns the recall provision

1\
8 I'

that we were discussing when Senator Holloway came in.

1\

II

9 II

And Loyce Turner came down last week and had Charlie Tid-

10

well and Frank Edwards with him and he discussed the fact

tha~ they had prepared the four-year term constitutional

amendment, together with Senate Resolution 14 that pro-

vided for recall of all State and local officials as a

package. And under the terms of our Select Committee's

recommendation on the Article, that this would automatic-

ally be repealed; is that righti

MR. 'rIDWELL:

1 ..

Tl:at's right.

19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

20

In order to change that to another Article.

21 MR. TIDWELL:

22

To bring the Select Committee up to date, at our

2?

last meeting there were a series of policy decisions made

24 I'i!

on how to deal with amendments that were going to be on

11
II

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the ballot at the same time as an Article revision is

~takinq place.

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PAGE 6

too~=-l And there were five separate policy

2 II

adopted to deal with that si tuetion. One was an outriqht I

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repeal of an amendment that dealt with an Article under I

I

revisionJ the second was a self-destruct amendment to

I I

I

that amendment to that amendment. And that is what has

been done in the case of the recall provision--the pre-

sently pending recall pmendment, that is, the amendment

now on the House calendar, that says to this effect, that

if Article II is adopted in the 1978 General Election,

then the recall amendment will be automatically repealed

and that's what gave Loyce concern. He felt like that hel

would be betraying people that he presented this package
I
to and he has asked the Select Committee, if they will, tq
I e.ploy snother device of the policy that was adopted and

that is to move his amendment into another Article, in
I this case, Article I. And this is a part of the Select

committee's policy decision that that would be a tool.

I

And so that's--that's really the purpose--and ths Govern01

explained to him that he could not do that; he could not

20 11 I
21

agree to that. That it would be up to the Select Committee to change that to employ a different tool.

22
I
23 il

Is that essentially, Frank, the situation that we have right now?

r MR. EDWARDS:
24

25

(Indicating affirmative response.)

---------------------------

PAGE 7

MR. TIDWELL:

So that's why the Governor called this meeting. In

the meantime--and we'll address this later--we have anoth r

4

amendment going through that's going to amend Article x.

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5

II IIIi

We now need to make a policy decision on what we will do

6 il

with that. But I guess the first order of business would

7

be to dispose of this.

II

8 'I SEN. HOLLOWAY:

II

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I move that the recall provision be--that we recom-

1\

10

mend that it be transferred to Article I.

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REP.

problem with that at SNOW:
I second that.

all.

I see no gre at

14 ,>-- JUDGE SMITH:

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Charlie, let me ask a question.

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provision for recall now?

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]7 :<iil MR. EDWARDS:

What is the present

IS II I 'I

We don't hav. one.

]9 II1'1 MR. TIDWELL:

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20 Ii

The~e's no constitutional provision.

'I
2] II GOVERNOR BTJSBEE:

22 II

We have some local--a few local ones for county com-

I,.
23 I I
24 i
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25

missioners. Loyce was saying he passed it as a package. Of course they passed a recall bill at the last se~sion an I vetoed it. And the reason I vetoed it is it was just a

r

._---

__ PAGE 8
.... ._._------_.._ - - - _ . _ - - - -

lot of the same thing you have in Donglas county.

2 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

3

That only applied to local government too; it didn't

4

apply to State government.

5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

6

I vetoed it for those two reasons. It only applied

7

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to local government and it didn't apply to State offi- cials and it didn't apply to the legislature. Now, this applies to everybody. It doesn't say it's "for cause." You can just do it. And I have some hang-up about doing that. A constitutional amendment--the other thing was whether you could constitutionally do that by statute. Anyway, I vetoed i t . live've got gov~rnment"', in roy 0,.-.i1liun, theil. ;r ~uu elect a per!'lon. whether it's for two years for the legislature or four years, forgetting that, I think you're going to have absolute chaos if you have local governments whereby you can recall these people without cause just because people are dissatisfied.

19

Well, anyway, Alhas made a motion there that--

20 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

21

Well, I made this motion based on the fact--the pro-

22

visions of the recall as I thought--what is it? Fifteell

23

percent of registered voters and ten percent from each

24

congressional district has to be garnered before reqall.

25

And then the matter has to be turned down by the General

._--------

PAGE 9

Assembly first as a condition precedent, as I recall,

and next, if it's turned down by the General Assembly,

then the recall provision is triggered. You have to have

fifteen percent of the registered voters and ten percent

of them must be from--a hundred percent of them must be

composed of ten percent from each congressional district.'

So i t didn't bother me that much.

MR. EDWARDS:

9

Now, that was in the bill. Of course we don't have

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anything right now and what this constitutional amendment would do would be to authorize the General Assembly to provide by general law ~or recall and--well, in fact that s what's in it.

14 .>..- SEN. HOLLOWAY: <

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15 .0

Well, this is not self-enacting, though?

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16 o~ MR. EDWARDS:

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No, no.

18

GOVERNOR BUSBEE;

19

The way it reads is: "All State, county and munici-

20

pal officials who hold an elective office are subject to

21

recall by the voters of the State, county, or municipal

22 23

t- corporation from which elected. Procedures and grounds
for recall shall be prescribed by law by the General A

24 I

bly. "

~'-:R. 25

E O.A.ROS ,

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PAGE 10 ----------_._---------,
Now, that's what passed last session. Now, we have

2

revised that language. In fact I think we discussed it--

3

I don't know whether we discussed it at a meeting with

4

you or not. But Loyce has agreed that we revise that

5

language and make it just say the General Assembly is

6

authorized to provide by general law for recall of public

71

officials who hold elected office. And Charlie--well, I

8

drew two or three versions. Charlie and I have talked

9

about it. First, I had all public officials, which is

10
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what he wanted originally. Now, he's agreed to strike that all out. So, theoretically, if this amendment in its latest form were to pass, then the General Assembly could come in and provide recall for anybody they wanted to. They could single out this group or that group or this group. In fact they wouldn't have to pass one ever at all. It's not mandatory that the General Assembly pas one. As I say, the whole thing is that Loyce, as he

Ii 18 I"'
19 II
II
20 II
21 I

states, in his district has said certain things and that' what his problem is right now.
This would be a non-self-executing amendment which would authorize the General Assembly--

22 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

23

Well, there's no doubt in my mind what the recall--

24

but what the recall provision, the philosophy of it,

25 lL

would aid and abet the passage of the four-year term. I

r--:~an you can ~~retc:-th~-tru~h a little bit.

I

:; I

know a lot of that will be said.

PAGE 11 But you

II 3 MR. EDWARDS:

4 I,

I personally feel like the Governor as far as the

III'

5 Ii

philosophy on it. I just don't like recall period. But

6 II

at least this amendment that Loyce is talking about would

II

leave it up to the General Assembly to pass.
7 II

R II JUDGE SMITH:

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9 II

AI, suppose they don't pass the four-year?

fl

Then

10

you've got a recall facing you within a two-year running.

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You could be recalled every year and you're going to be

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in a mess.

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Well, I think you're in better shape with every two years than with every four years. Because they might bedice well, we can get rid of him without going through a'l that trouble in two years, where it might be worth

]8

the effort on a four-year term.

19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

20

Douglas County of course has a recall provision for

21

county commissioners and it's not the most stable county

22

government we have in Georgia. But it's passed--the ques

23

tion is, it's passed the House and the Senate in their

24

infinite wisdom and I have nothing to do with it

PAGE 12

EDWARDS:
we don'tl Governor, if I might say one more thing. If

3

do something this session, then the one that's already

4
II

passed is going on the ballot.

I
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5 I GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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6

Right. Now, what Al just made a motion un, as I

II

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understand it, is we take Senate Resolution 14, which is

8

the one that was passed that I just read and we chanye

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that amendment to Article Ii isn't that right?

10 MR. TIDWELL:

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But I think, to back up just a little. we--that is what could be aone. But in the process of doing that, the mechanism that Frank is using here, he is going to repeal Senate Resolution 14; re-enact it in a different form and put it in Article I. That will be the vehicle that will be used, right, Frank? EDWARDS:

18

Right.

19 MR. TIDWELL:

20
I
21 II

The Select Committee doesn't have to do this. Because Arthur's committee addressed the question of Electivt

22 'I

Franchise and public office holding and they didn't deal

23 III

with recall.

24 :1

BOLTON:

25 I L MRl.
We didn't have nothinq to do with this. i ,-------------------

TIDWELL:

PAGE 13
---------------------------------,

Presumably, that's the--not presumably, but con-

cr0tely, what you proposed in Article II to the Select

committee and what they approved is what you thought

Article II ought to look like and it doesn't have a re-

call in it. But I think we're now down to the practical

politics of it and we're going to have to deal with this

issue one way or the other, either the way it's going

through the House now or--

10 REP. SNOW:

Let me ask you this, Charlie. When we pass Article

II in November, is there any prohibition in the constitu-\

tion relative to legislation which would provide for

14 >>-'4

recall?

l:

15 .:> MR. TIDWELL:

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Yes.

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17 ~ MR. EDWARDS:

You've got some problems.

18 II

19 II
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20 I,I

21 !II,

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You've got some possible constitutional problems. Right now the only people that have them are county commissioners in municipal charters. And there's some questions about whether you could do it for State officials and for those so-called county officials who have a four-

23
I

year term. That was one of the bases used to veto this

24 II

bill las t session.

25lI<E~~_SNOW'

- ----_.._ - - - - - - -

PAGE 14

II

Again, do we have specific prohibitions about it?

II

2I

If we don't have--

3 I MR. TIDWELL:

II

4

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i

Not specific.

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You I ve got very, very strong implied. I

5 JUSTICE HILL:

6 I'

You've got some cases that, say, where the Constitu-

1\

7 II

tion prescribes qualifications for an office and cannot

8

be added to or taken from. It says four-year term.

q SEN. HOLLOWAY:

10

One good thing about putting it in Article I and if

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we defer the rewriting of Article I for two or three years, you could have experience of living under the law and subject to change whether we write Article I again.

14 >- GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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When you change the Constitution, it's rather perma-

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nent. I don't know how to address the pr.oblem. I think

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when it passed last time, very frankly, I didn't even know

18
II
19 Ii
20 I

that it had passed. I knew about the statute having passed and I vetoed it but--if we don't do anything and we went on and passed the--what the Select Committee had

21

on this Article, then that would eliminate Loyce's amend-

II

22

ment, wouldn't it?

) ' _.~

REP. SNO~7:

Only if Article II passed. Now, the problem that

could raise--I don't--I wouldn't anticipate it but it
---------------------

PAGE 15

I!

could--is that this would create an issue or a cause in

II

I,

2 Ii
II

certain areas of the State whereby they said, well, don't

3

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votp for Article II because then you're going to also

I

4I

vote against the recall. By voting in favor of Article

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5

i I

II.

I

6 II JUDGE SMITH:

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7
III,

You can turn that right around, too, and say all

8

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II

those public officials will say, don't vote for it until

,1

9

I
"

you do have a recall. That would be a much stronger war

10

c~y, I've got a hunch, than the other one. Because

these things are passed in the courthouse, you know.

MR. TIDWgLT:

If there's a recall provision on the ballot, I'd bet

a lot of money I don't have that it would pass.

JUDGE SMITH:

Yes, but it does give you something to talk about

if they want to raise a ruckus about it.

18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

19

But what Charlie's referring to is that it would be

20

meaningless if this Article was passed. And what wayne

21

is saving is our Article would probably pass because a 10

22

of people would be opposed to the rec~ll.

REP. SNOW:

But of course if we pass this in the House~OdaY,

25

what's Loyce going to do with it in the Senat?

---_._--

PAGE 16

II GOVERNOR BUSBEE'

2I

I don't follow this--your 478-1349.

It's the same

3

thing as was passed last year but it has Parayrrt!='j, n

-there: "In the event an amendment to the Constitution

completely revising Article II is ratified at the 1978

general election. the provisions of this Section shall

ii

7 ii
II

not become effective."

ii

8 Ii REP. SNOW:

Ii,

9 IIii

Which is a self-destruct clausl~.

10 MR. BOLTON:

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This has gotten out of the'Select Committee-field

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and gotten into the pOlitical field.

~?J/ GOVERNOR BUSBEE,

14 ~

We've got the Supreme Court and Court of Appeals and

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the Attorney General here. We've got the Legislative

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16 ~

Counsel here and the Governor's Counsel.

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17 ~ MR. BOLTON:

18 II

TheLegislative Counselor somebody ought to tell us

19 II

what to do.

20 Ii JUDGE SMITH: I I

21

It's strictly political, Governor.

22 jSEN. HOLLOWAY:

I

_)_''

Ii11

I think I withdraw my motion.

!\

~ 24 MR. TIDWELL:

25

I think what you're going to be faced with if we don'

------

PAGE 17

[1

accommodate Loyce, is he"s going to work the Senate very,1

2 !1

very hard against this resolution that's going to come

3

over from the House.

4 REP. SNOW:

5

I think so too.

II

6

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Which means that the one which is already passed

II

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will be on the ballot.

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Will be there and it will be messing up the Article II revision. JUDGE SMITH:
Now, let's be practical about it. Wayne and AI~ what exactly should we do? SEN. HOLLOWAY:
Well, 1 1 m satisfied that Loyce has made a great effort by amending what we already have. You passed it

18

and we have it presently in Government Operations Com-

19

mittee to effect what his wishes are, wouldn't you think?

20

He couldn't amend it, though, putting it in Article I,

21

could he? I guess he could.

"~L) ".

MR. EDWARDS:

23

He could do it as a sub to this whenever it passed

24

the House. He could do it as a sub to this.

II 25 L,SEN. HOLLOWAY: _

PAGE 18

And I'm sure that he will do it.

2 REP. SNOW:

3

Well, let's just go with what we've got. We've got

4 I

this on the calendar. I think we'll get to it this after

5 II
'I

noon and take it up. And if there's an amendment, we'll

6 Ii II

just have to go with it as it arises over there and see

I,I'

7

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what the score is then.

8

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MR.

EDWARDS:

9 Ii

If I could say one more thing. All, you remember

10
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when I talked to you on the floor, Loyce asked me what was the status and I told him we were going to have this Committee meeting. And he said, well, if they will go ahead and do the sub in the House before it comes to the Senate, but if not, let me know and I'm going to put it in as a sub over here. And so he's going to certainly try to do exactly what we're talking about doing here any way.

18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

19

He's going to move it to Article I is what he's

20

going to do, isn't hel

21 MR. EDWARDS:

22

Oh, yes, sir.

23 it GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

l24
25

In other words, he would just simply offer an amendment to move his resolution to Article I--to amend Article

PAGE 19

I of the Constitution.

REP. SNOW:

And if they pass that in the Senate and it comes bac

over in the House, we'll agree to it. I don't know of

anything else we can do.

6 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

7

Well, it seems to me our basic question then is--or

8

decision is, whether we're going to support Loyce's posi-

II

9 II

tion because he's going to do it regardless of what we do,

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10

isn't he.?

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He's going to try.

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HOLLOWAY:

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He's going to try, yes.

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15 MR. TIDWELL:

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I mean there's no question about that. He's talked

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to the Lieutenant Governor; he's talked to the Governor.

18

I think has had Frank talk to the Speaker about it and

19

he wants the acquiescence of the Select Committee in his

W

attempts to do that.

21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

22

I thought this was the Speaker's bill right here.

23 !MR. TIDWELL:

24

It was. He was carrying out the policy of the Select

25 III L_ Committee.

PAGE 20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

2

I don't know--

3 MR. BOLTON:

4

It would be probably better if we moved it to Articl

5

I because then you'd handle it later--

6 REP. SNOW:

7

Have you already got an amendment to move it to

8

Article I1 I'm going to have to present this afternoon

9

if we get to it.

10 MR. EDWARDS:

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11 I-
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Well, Charlie and I need to talk some more about a couple of these last two things. I don't have the final thing right now.

14 ~ REP. SNOW:

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15 ~

I'll just ask the Speaker to hold off on this until

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tomorrow.

<

17 ~ MR. TIDWELL:

18

I think it would be better to let Loyce do that and

19

y'all go on with what you've got if it's going to come up.

20 REP. SNOW:

21

Okay.

22 MR. TIDWELL:

23

Let him handle it. What about that?

M MR. EDWARDS:

25

That's fine.

PAGE 21

MR. TIDWELL:

2

If that be the wishes of the Committee.

3 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

4

I so move.

5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

6

All right. Your move is to let--just let the resolu

7

tion go as it is to the House and then Loyce can offer

8

an amendment if he so desires to move it to Article I?

9 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

,-

10
..,

Yes, sir.

z

II

Iet:

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

o

0.-

j) ~

~ ~~

All right. The motion's made that--that--that--

~ri SEN. HOLLOWAY:

14 ;
I-

well. the Committee would have no objection to--

'<"l:

:J:

15 .:> GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
"et:
::>

16 ~ waz

The Committee would have no objection to the Senator

<

17 :::;

offering his amendment to move it to Article I when it

18

gets to the Senate. All right. Second?

19 REP. SNOW:

20

Second.

21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

22

Second. Any further discussion? If not, all in

23

favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.] All opposed [No

24

response.] Good. Now, we've got down to--on some other

25 IlL_ _. business, you asked me about th.e retirement amendment, _

PAGE 22

House Resolution 39, John Greer's Retirement Age Amendmen

2

where it says there will be no mandatory retirement age

3

in Georgia except for--you would have a mandatory retire-

4

ment allowed for State Patrol, for state Game & Fish--

5 MR. BOLTON:

6

Has that passed both houses?

7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

8

No, sir. It's passed as House Resolution 39. John

Greer passed it in the House. How is that going to affec

10

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11

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MR.

Q.

~~r12 .u''".". iz= w U V>

14 .>..V..>: :r:
15 .:>
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16 zco w 0z ..:
17 'c"o

this--

TIDWELL:

All right. John's amendment is an amendment to

II

Article X. So we--here we're faced again with concurrent

ly an amendment going through the General Assembly deal-

ing with an Article that's being revised and we have thos

five policy tools that we can employ. Of course one of

them would be--the first one is that they be killed. In

18

other words, you would try and kill John Greer's H.R. 39.

19 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

20

We didn't succeed to well in the House on that be-

21

cause it's already passed.

22 MR. TIDWELL:

23

Right. Then the second alternative would be the same

24

thing that we're talking about here and that's the self-

25

destruct provision to add on toe John's--we can deal with

PAGE 23
~hn's amendment now because it's in the breast of the

2:

General Assembly and place a self-destruct clause.

3 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

4

well, the only way you're going to have a self-de-

5

struct would be to include his amendment in mine--in

6

article X.

7 MR. TIDWELL:

8

Right.

9 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

10

Otherwise you don't need a self-destruct.

l!J

Z

11

...
'o"

MR.

TIDWELL:

"w"

(0\ i12 ~

, ~~)~~ coo",...

SEN.

14 ...

You could do that. HOLLOWAY:
You see the only thing

that

precludes

if

from

fittin

~

I

15 .0

into our Article as it now exists is the numbering of the

l!J

3'::">
16

paragraphs. The only way we could do a self-destruct is

cz.

17 ~

for us to agree to include it in our Article X and that

18

would have to be done a member of the House.

19 REP. SNOW:

20

Allright. Why don't you amend the House Bill'or :

21

House Resolution, then, in the Senate when it comes throu h

22

Senate Committee to be an amendment to Article X if it's

23

adopted?

24 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

25
[

Right. And then, John, I'm sure would agree to our

---------------------------------'

PAGE 24

putting a self-destruct to his in the House. But now

2

let's get to the politics of it again. Do we think such

3

a law would pass? Do we think the two Houses are in favo

4

of such a law? You know, being the people's representa-

5

tive, I only want to do what I think the majority of the

6

people want to do and I'm not so sure about what they

7

think of this bill.

8 JUSTICE HILL:

9

To refresh your recollection, there's not any way

10

you can force an elected officer, I don't believe, a man-

Czl 11 l-
oDe
0.. w
e)~i

datory retirement age. But you can give them a retiremen system by which they elect to come under that retirement system and if the constitutional amendment were to invali

14 ~ <I-

date the consideration there, it might then invalidate

1:

15 ~

the whole retirement system.

Cl

De

::>

16

~
wo

GOVERNOR

BUSBEE:

z

..;:

17 ~

I don't know what to do on this thing.

18 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

19

What was the vote on that in the House?

20 MR. HODGKINS:

21

It received a bare majority--12l.

22 MR. BOLTON:

23

Anybody move to reconsider it?

24 MR. EDWARDS:

25

No.

PAGE 25

SEN. HOLLOt'1AY:

2

Well, it needs a lot of cleaning up. I need to read

it and the language--I'm not a lawyer but I passed the

third grade and it needs a lot of work on it and we might

5

end up by not passing it. We might clean it up and not

6

pass it. I've had that happen couple or three times.

7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

8

Wouldn't we be in this position? Can't we just go

9

on and pass on both of these as a Select Committee recom-

10

mendation, which is in the form of a Resolution. Then if

Czl

11 .... o0<

either of these pass, we'll just have to amend the resolu-

Q.

(~-~JI~ 12 ~

tion that's already passed to incorporate them.

SEN. HOLLOWAY:

14 ....

I didn't quite follow you there, Governor?

What?

V'>

J:

15 ,~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

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3:':">
16

In other words, if--take, on this recall, that if

Cl

z

17 :::i

they go with the speaker's amendment--

18 II SEN. HOLLOWAY:

Ii

19 II
1

Well, we've already moved on that and put it--we

20 I1I1

approved it going into Article I.

21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

22

Well, you said, approved it. You just said that we

23

were going to proveed as is. We're not injecting ourselve

24

at all and Loyce Turner can make the amendment himself on

25

the floor of the Senate. That's all we agreed to. We've

PAGE 26

not really taken any position except to tell Loyce that

2

we're not going to object to him making that ,attempt.

3

We're not endorsing; we're not condining; we're not dis-

4

avowing it.

5 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

6

I think, then, in this second agenda, all we need to

7

do is to give--is for this Committee to give us authority

8

to incorporate in the Article X bill a self-destruct in

9

the event this passes the Senate and we'll just hold it

10

on a time-basis. If it fails the Senate, we've got no

problem. If it passes the Sena~e, then we've got to get

a destruct clause in our Article X; isn't that correct?

MR. EDWARDS:

No. Put it in this amendment. Put it in the manda-

15 .0

tory retirement amendment .

Cl

o!

::>

16 'z" w

MR.

TIDWELL:

Q

Z

..:

17 ''""

Put it in John's amendment.

18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

19

You put it in John!s amendment, that in the event

20

it passes--

21 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

22

Well, what we could do, of course, we've got to

23

clean this up a little bit. That automatically sends it

24

back to the House. If it passes the Senate, then all we

25
U-

have to do is put a destruct clause on it in the House.
- - - ---------

PAGE 27

MR. TIDWELL:

2

AI, what would be wrong with, while you\re cleaning

3

it up, put the self-destruct clause in there?

4

SEN. HOLLOWAY:

5

See, it's after the fact if it passed the Senate. I

6

don't want to influence the judgment of the Senators re-

7

viewing that legislation any way as having the blessings

8

of this Committee.

9 MR. TIDWELL:

10
Czl 11 l-
et:
e. o "12 ~"' _~

SEN.

Well, I just raise this caveat. That if you do what you say. it's liable to get back over to the House and somebody's liable to forget that self-destruct on there. HOLLOWAY:

14 >-
<l-
1:
15 ~
"et:
::>
16 ~ "oz'
17 ~

Well, then, we all ought to be fired and fire a heap of folks we've got working for us around here. If we forget it. Well, that would seem to me that way to handle it and I think we can move this thing in the Sen-

18

ate right quick to get the feel of the Senate on it. And

19

if it passes the Senate--and of course we are going to

20

amend it in the Senate--if it passes the Senate, than all

21

we have to ask the House to do is incorporate the self-

22

destruct clause and we can do it and we're home free. If

23

it doesn't pass the Senate, our problem's over with. And

24

we have not unduly influenced the bill from this--

25 MR. EDWARDS:

n------------------------- ----------

PAGE 28

Well, let me raise one more point, Al, on that. Wha

2

you're talking about--this mandatory retirement things is

3

cleaned up and passes the Senate; gets back over to the

4

House with the self-destruct provision in it that says in

5

the event that Article X is ratified, then this mandatory

6

thing would be--

7 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

8

That's right. And then we move the whole Article X

9

somewhere until a point where we can incorporate this in

10

article x.

'z"

.. 11

....
'o"

MR.

EDWARDS:

a.

12 :
@r~

Well, we can move this into Article I, matter.

14 .>..-. MR. HODGKINS:

'<

1:

15 .~

That's what I was going to say. Couldn't we just

<..:>

:':":>

16 ~... o

amend it while you're amending it in the Senate?

Z

4
17 ~ SEN. HOLLOWAY:

18

Well, I don't know. Is it germane to the Article?

19 MR. EDWARDS:

20

Well, we've got the same problem as far as politics

21

is concerned that we've got with Loyce Turner's recall, 1

22

think.

23 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

24

Well, no, I don't. Because, you see, we recidified

25

the Constitution placing as best we could germane items in

PAGE 29
._------------------,
the proper Articles, all right, as best we could. So in

2

redoing Article X, we had to dip into nine other Articles

3

even after we recodified. So if it's any germaneness at

4

all to Article I, we could justify it. If it's not, we

5

can't justify it because we spent a year or two just re-

6

codifying. And now we're uncodifying our recodifying.

7 MR. BOLTON:

8

That's exactly what I was thinking. We're amending

9

it as we're trying to perfect it.

10 MR. EDWARDS:

Yeah. But at least we're getting these two Articles

that we're revising in the shape that we're trying to get

them into.

REP. SNOW:

Instead of just having a self-destruct clause in it-

in this--I mean if it passes the Senate--mandatory re-

tirement, why not also say, in the event that this is

18 II

approved and it shall be placed in such and such--or in

19 II

the event that Article X is approved and it shall be

20 II

placed as Section such and such in the revised Article.

21

Otherwise--and then also have a self-destruct clause in

22

there.

23 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

24
25 1L

Couldn't that be done, Frank? That would stop one process of amending Article X.

PAGE 30

MR. TIDWELL:

2

There, you're talking about puttting it in something

3

that might be and it might not.

4 REP. SNOW:

5

Well, but if it's not--if it's not, then it will go

6

on and pass. It just goes on and becomes an amendment to

7

the present Constitution.

8 I, GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

II

9 II

You want to say something, Marty?

10 MR. HODGXINS:

lz:l 11 ....
0:
o Q.....
@;i

I just was going along with, Frank, that while we're cleaning it up, wh~ don't we just put it in Article X right now?

14

;
~

REP.

SNOW:

<0:
:x:

15 .:>
l:l

It has nothing to do with Article I.

0:

~

16

~
'Cz"l

MR.

HODGKINS:

17 ~

There are a bunch of things on Article I.

You don't

18

have to be forced to retire--

19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

20

Yeah. That could come under the Jill of Rights.

21

Why don't we just provide in here that it be in Article I

22

if it passeS1 put the amendment on it. If it passes, let

23

it go. That would be the simplest thing and not--any

24

objection to doing that? Or is there a motion that we do

25

that?

/
/

PAGE 31

MR. EDWARDS:

And then you're forgetting about the self-destruct

thing altogether?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Just provide that in the event, you know, AI, when

y'all put it in the Senate, that it be put in Article I.

I
7 II SEN. HOLLOWAY:

II

8 II

Right.

!,

ii

9 :1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
"

10

Let's make that in the form of a motion.

"z
11 I-
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12 ~
~~~~)~\)~ 14 ~ lv..>: J:
15 ~
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17 ~

JUDGE SMITH: I move.
REP. SNOW: Second.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All in favor--any
say aye. (A chorus of

discussion? ayes.] All

If not, opposed?

all in favor [No response.]

lR

It's unanimously adopted. Anything else?

19 MR. HODGKINS:

20

Th~re's only one other thing and that was--we had

21

talked about recreating a commission--a special commissio

22

to incorporate amendments just like this. Frank and

23

Charlie and I kind of got together and drafted some stuff.

24

Do you want us to go ahead and introduce that?

25 SEN. HOLLOWAY:

PAGE 32

What we should have done when we were recodifying

2

is added another Article--a catchall Article. That's

3

what we should have done.

4

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

5I

Well, what Marty is saying, should we have one of

II

6

the committees that we did when we passed the Constitu-

7 III,

tion recodification that would allow them to recodifv any

8 i" i
II

changes. I think we ought to go on and get some vehicle.! i

9 [I Ii

it thf I think it was myself and--who was'it on that? Was

10

Attorney General and Secretary of State?

z"

11

l-
oet:

REP.

SNOW:

0-

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I move that we do so.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

14 ~
<l-
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15 .:>
"'::":>
16 ~ ozw <
17 ~

Okay. It's moved that we have the same type codification special commission there to recodify any constitutional amendments that are passed, to make them consistent with the action we're doing on these two Articles.

18

Second?

19

JUDGE SMITH:

20

I second.

21

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

22

It's seconded. All in favor say aye. ~A chorus of

ayes.) Opposed?

II 24 I'

then?

l25 M._R_._E_D_W_A_R_D_S_:

[No response.] _

Can you ge~ it drafted

PAGE 33

Right. Do you want to decide where it's going to be

introduced right now--in the House or the Senate?

SEN. HOLLOWAY;

well, we'd better get it in the Senate because of

the seven-day provision.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Right. Go ahead with the Senate and just give it to

Al. Any other business? Is that all, Marty?

MR. HODGKINS:

10

Yes.

Czl 11 ...
et:
.oQ...
12 ~
(~~ ~;~!J~ CI/""". ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, we're adjourned.
[Whereupon, the above-entitled

proceedings

were

adjourned

14 .>.-. at 4:05 o'clock, p.m.]

~

:t

15 .:J

-000-

Cl

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16 .Z..

C E R T I F I CAT E

oz

17 ~

I hereby certify, as the court reporter, that the

18 II

'i

19

II il

Ii

20 I

statements that appear in the proceedings were taken stenographically by me, and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me, and that this transcript is a true and

21

accurate record to the best of my ability.

22

23 I
II
24 I
25 I
IL_

DARLENE F. AKINS, CCR
Notary Puhlic, Georoia, Slate at large My (."".,'.,.,,,," Expires ""J:). 3. \980

INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision
Select Committee Meeting Held on Feb. 15, 1978

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 2-15-78
Proceedings. p. 2
ARTICLE II: VOTING AND ELECTIONS SECTION II: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraph IV: Recall of public officials holding elective office.
pp. 5-21
ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH SECTION X: RETIREMENT SYSTEMS, and
ARTICLE VIII: EDUCATION SECTION VII: EDUCATIONAL ASSISTANCE. pp. 2-5, 21-31

H! TING or'
SELI:CT emu,1 r TTl~J': ON CONS'!' J TUTl O~J1'.!, REVIS 1 ul~
1'J(~<1JIE'sday, J1.11 y 11, 1979 Governor's Office
MEMBLHS PRESENT Governor BusLee Charles Tidwell, Executive ~uunsel Speaker Murphy .rudy!..> Deen
1 Attorney General Bolton Senior Judge Calhoun Senator Hollo't;ay Representative Connell Senator Overby Representative Snow !1EHBLRG ABSLNT Lieutenant Governor Miller Chief Justice Nichols

11 l" h/I I'

... 1"''',lli'l( KII'ul: I i',(;
, 1.'-lI.IS2 " !' :, i' I I, \ I I( ,"J'> - I I ) :', \ ! '. I II \

',I I,ll' I,

" \1; I, 2

r

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 1 ' m going to call the meeting to order

! and I'll ask Charles Tidwell, if he would, to call the roll.

I

I

MR. TIDWELL: Governor Busbee?

I

I

1 'I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Here.

II

< [I

MR. TIDWELL: Lieutenant Governor Miller--he's not here;

III
(0 Ii: he sent word that he could not be here.

I:

..,

I.

,i.i

Speaker Murphy?

I

t\ i'

SPEAKER fWRPHY: Here.

'I

MR. TIDWELL: Chief Justice Nichols--I believe they're

III holding court today.

I I ,.
"(l
c

Judge Deen? JUDGE DEEN: Here.

MR. TIDWELL: Attorney General Bolton?

ATTORNEY GENERAL BOLTON: Here.

I ~ -' '." .,

Ih "

'~
()

l.

- " I

::1

I,

MR. TIDWELL: Senior Judge Calhoun? SENIOR JUDGE CALHOUN: Here. MR. TIDWELL: Senator Holloway? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Here.

I"

MR. TIDWELL: Representative Connell?

,.

2(1 " I'

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Here.

21

MR. TIDWELL: Senator Overby?

,,
SENATOR OVERBY: Here.

MR. TIDWELL: Representative Snow?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Here .

'oj

1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1
I

HR. TIDI.-JELL: TIHC' are two absent.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You were mailed a copy of the minutes
"I
of the last meeting of the Select Committee which was held on

: January the 4th, und I'd entertain a motion regarding the minute

1\
I:

[Hotion made from commi ttee member.]

ii

I f)

A motion was made; is there a second?

!---
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[Motion seconded from a committee member.!

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Motion m~de and seconded; is there any objection?

I,

IQ

ii,

[Negative response.]

I

10

If not, the minutes of the meeting of January the

"z

.. J I ~ 4 th, 1978, are approved. o

."

12 :

Let me kind of give you an overview of things that

/~,-'!iYf{1\

~

~~~J(!'!"~' ~ have happened since our last meeting on ,January the 4th, 1978.

_..

14 >-As you recall, Article II and -- which was on the election

!;;

<:
T
15 .~ franchise; and Article X, the retirement and scholarships, which

l'
,~
OJ

Ih [were approved by the General Assembly at the 1978 session, sub-

o
T
17 ~stantially as they were submitted by the Select Committee, were

r~
I ..,
I~
rI ~
,--.

,"< i defeated in the November, General Election.

I, III

I think there are two things I'd like to say about

:n that. One is the need as we come out with these Articles,

~I I! better public promotion of the Articles by the Select Committee

II
!.: and we discussed this, I think, some of us individually, and,

I.

I

.

Ii !3 of course we don't have all the problems on the next genera 1

Ii 24 election we had than the last one as far as the number of con-
I,
,<; IiI 'stitutional amendments. The House, and the Senate are holding
I

"\1 T 4

down the amount of constl tutional amendments, and I think we

If

.,

i~
I!

will

be

able

to

focus

in on

these

and

all

of

us

promote

them a

i'

.~ II lot better than we did in the past .

I
4I

But, the promulgation and the promotion of them, I

5 think are very important.

I'

The efforts though, that we make, and that the

i Articles Committee make are really not going to/beneficial, and

IF the legislature makes when they adopt them are not going to be
(I j beneficial unless we come up with an overall program to promote

\ll the passage, and I think we're 90in9 to have to do thi s next

"

11 2 November.

o'"

."."..

1; ~~

We had the resignation of Marty Jodgkins which was

~:~~~~ ~ ~VJt . on May the 1st at the creation of the nominating committee which

--

14 ~ consisted of myself, the Lieutenant Governor, the Speaker, the

",(

15 o Attorney General and the Chief Justice, and that's about the
":'.">
16 ~ status of everything that I know that has happened since we last
az
,(
,., ;; me t.

IX II

Now, we had previously set an agenda when we origin-

I II) ally organized, and subsequent meetings, as to which Articles
,n I tha t we were going try and pass in 1980 in the general elections

~I ! and which ones would be in 1982. Now, we have met with some of , , our staffs, and some of the Select Committe and their staffs,
:.1 concerning the priorities we had, and I would like to make one

suggestion after talking with some of you individually, and that

is, that we change what we had initially done with the judiciary

J
J
]
-l
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11 .

" rather than trying to po :,s that at thi 5 se ssion, when I don't

I:

1

,

IiI,
think

we

can

--

there

i~;

anyway

that we

can

address

the

judicial

Ii
; and pass it at this session of the General Assembly in the way

-l II of a constitutional amendment with what we've had in the past
1
:i
5 ! and to realign that and give about an equal amount for 1980 and

6 1,1982, and put that -- and for us to work on next year.

ii

'I

7 II

Now, if you did that, that means -- in this session

~ !Iwe would be resubmitting Articles II and X, which failed, but, ,I II

o Idon't know of any change that anyone has even proposed any of

),} those

has there been?

) I ...
..~
o
c..

Has anyone proposed a change? [Negative response.}

Anyway, if we could just resubmit those and the wor

;:is already accomplished as far as this Committee is concerned;

~
<x

15 'the Legislature will have to readopt it, and then submit them t

()

16

""0I'
:::,

the

people.

o.,

Then we would stay right on schedule on Article I,

11 f,the Bill of Rights; Article II, the Legislature; Article IVane

Article V, the Constitutional Boards and Executive. Then the 19 judiciary would be deferred along with the taxation, education,

20 ;and local government for 1982; that will give us two years in

;which to work on that, plus, from now until the General Assernb 1

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Tom, I'll go on and get my Articles

started in the Senate and you can --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You are referring, Senator Holloway, '~:your Article--you're talking about you will get Article X star'
iI ....

I' \' I 6

If in the Senate; is that r.iJht or --

I

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think we go on and get them --

i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And, you'd get Article II started

I

I! the House the same as be fore. ,I

!'

S I:

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think that's the way we did it last

i ~, i time.

I III'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that's what you did also.

!I

II

~ :1

Is there any objection to doing that; there's no use

n

Ii
II in us going back

to an Article Committee

is it,

just -- we're

ready to go with it?

..<)

II ... e<

SPEAKER HURPIIY:

t')

We're ready to go with it.

~

I.' u

'1;.'V..

.h
l1\

...

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Speaker Murphy says we're ready to go

(\.f~;.;;.~)r~:!'.!'
" :/1

~with

Article

II,

and

you

will

have

Article

X in

the

Senate,

---

14 :: Sena tor Holloway.

., l~' c,

What's the observation of the Select Committee as

:J
IG 5" far as -- I've discussed this, I think, with four or five of a

\ -,

,(
~you

and

I

think

that's

about

it,

about

the

schedule,

would

you

\:-; have -- Wayne, this addresses you and others that have worked

19 on this in the judiciary, but, what is your feeling, Mr. Speaker?

.'()

SPEAKER MURPHY: I personally think it's a proper approacl

.' I the way we ought to go at it. That's the only way we're going

to get it done. I'm in total agreement with you. It would be

absolutely foolish to take up the judiciary article. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think also, the tax one, Mr. Speaker,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 'I'll ~ tax was already scheduled for 182.

SENATOR 1I0LLCMAY: 111 , it is?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Good.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I have a sub-committee that is pre-

h sently working--three members of our Commission that hopefully

Ii7 will be able to make a report back on the Judicial Article some-

8

I
I

time

this

year,

but

that

will

have

to

be

submitted

back

to

the

I

I9 Commission, but there is so much diversity of opinion on the

10 various subjects of the Article that we could possibly buy it by,
"z
II ~introducing it. We would destroy the likelihood of passage of
"I-'
'w
~" tany other Articles, and there is, of course now, 1 must say thati

I-
~t the Speaker, 1 have advised him, hopefully thac he would not make

I

~as many off the cuff remarks about it next time

,<"

[

15 .~

SPEAKER HURPIIY: 1 still the swee t old boy I I ve always

"
!':"'
If> been.
o
l
<t
17 ~

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW:

So, he's assured us of his better

l~ I cooperation.

I IlJ

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Well, you know, if we are able though

20 ito focus in on these and do the jobs you did on II and X, -- well,

21 1 think those are well written, we had an educational process
\,
2-:' II linvolvement and we had some support, even though they were defeate

23 Iwe had the support for them.
I
I
people being against them.

It had nothing to do with the

But, these others, we can address anc do a good job

:siU.". 2S4'1_ .

jI; j j UP iii; p! .Ii

:r
:Ion and sell -- if we can : ~ll hal.f of this consli tution we'll

I'

ii

~")

II
i:

be

able

to

complete

this

thing

in

the

next

two

years.

Otherwise

if we were to leave the Judiciary in and have a lot of, you know,

discussion on that and it would go down the drain, the whole

constitution goes down with it.

And, I just feel if we can take half the constitution
.,
I and pass it this year, the people in November -- this next year,

that we will be able to go with it.

,) 1:1

SPEAKER MURPHY: In fact, it's mandatory that we pass

at least close to half of it this time and get the people to
..,
7.
,JI ~ adopt it because we're going to have a hard time in the House
."o.-.
~ and Senate both, holding off these constitutional amendments .~ ..
L
~ four years in a row unless we make some substantial progress;

isn't that right, Senator Holloway?

o

't r

- 1< '~

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Governor, I seriously believe we coulo

"IX

~

Ih ~probably go with most every Article with the exception of the

o

l

17 ''"" home rule or the local governmen t and the judiciary. The onl y

I lq thing you're doing to the other Articles is taking out the ver-

I, ll}

':; IC".", ; ~ ,
bage or the statutury -- there are no s-ubstitive changes, but,

'i
?o I, you recall in '76, the only problem we ran into then in the pas-
I

; I II, sage of that new constitution that didn't make any substitute

II

changes was the area relative to home rule, where we did have

to make substi tute changes, and the Mayor of Atlanta and -- wer

opposed to the whole constitution; and, I think that's going to

1

..) ., be our trouble ayain--the home rule section and the judicial

1
-----,.j" .---- .~.... _~. - .. - - . - . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -..._.:..'"E....~_'!"'."".'!".1" - '1 ~.......

Ii article . The rest of the", I think, will go.

, II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If we come up with half of this con-

I;
I stitution we'll have six articles, and I'm asking Charlie Tidwell

.~ I to Zerox tha t--the schedule that we adop ted be fore wi th the

shifting of the Judiciary, you'll see the balance. If we put I b Lall that on at this session and it goes on the balance, and you'r(
7 I able to hold down the other consti tutional amendments, we can

8 pass it.

q

SPEAKER NURPHY: How many did we pass--both houses pass

last year, very few.

"7.

II ~-

'I:

"..,I

12 ~:

(~(~6-Y~.:1~jt'.D/9f!/!!'!!"!!

~... the

--

.- I~).,

.:

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Very fe\.y. SPEAKER nURPHY: I move that we adopt ~he schedule Governor has proposed. [Motion seconded from a committee member.l

that

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded that we
":'">
16 !'"go with the schedule, and I'll hand out a copy to each of you,
.o7.
17 ~and we'll adopt this schedule.

I IX I

That means we'll have

in 1980 we'll resubmit

,

I

IQ I Articles II and X, Article I, Article III, Article IV, and

i
20 I Article V will be considered by the Article Commi ttee and taken
!'
21 p" up by the Legislature at the next session. We'll defer until

22 "next year -- the next year for submission to the people in '82,
23 Article VI, VII, VIII and IX.
I
Now, the 11l)Xt thing I want to bring up is the nominat-
.'" ill'! COllllllilll'I', <1llcl ['m going to calIon my Executive Counsl.d,

I' \' ,I 10

II'I Charlie Ti dwe 11, to repol. t on wha t they I vo been doing on our-

!/ ,I

behalf.

MR. TImoJELL: If the Committee recalls the methodology

on the other three Articles you were working on, was that the

Select Committee appointed the chairman of those three committee::

and then that individual chairman picked his own committee, and

there was nothing wrong with that in the results that came,

:~ because I think we had an excellent committee; but, as the think-
I
} I ing developed, when all the remaining article committees would

10 be constituted and would begin their work, we felt--and the
"z
" .~ Governor discussed it wi th some of the members of the Se lect :J >..
~Committee that a change in methodology might prove beneficial, .~-
r.
,~in tha t there wou ld be a coordinated effort to try and ge t as
I
~broad a representation of members on the Article Revision Com-
f t
I~)..,,mittees as would represent geographic distribution, ethnic dis,>
J~ ~tribution, representing various interests that ought to be on ()
1
1~ ~the various articles, not having duplication of legislative
I~ members on there, and that would have been difficult to do if

)'1 we had had six or eight different committee chairmen not doing

it.
21

And, that seemed to -- that idea seemed to meet with

,,.,the approval of the members that the Governor ran this idea by,
~.1 i so it would crea te a nominating commi t tee consi sting of the
I
21 II Governor, the Speaker, the Lieutenant Governor, the Attorney

-' I: , . i Genera I, and the Chie f Justice, and they, in-turn, de signa ted

I,.

,.

\ I, I'; 11
p-
II agents to really do a lot "f the nitty-gritty work for them
i, subject to the approval of their principal.

3

The Governor named Norman Underwood, his executive

~ secretary; after Norman left, Tom Perdue, Tom Daniel, and myself

5 kind of shared those responsibilities. Jim Pratt, Assistant

h Attorney General was the Attorney General designee; Lee Perry

7 'the legal aide to the Chief Justice was his designee; the Speaker

H had named Frank Edwards as his designee; and Lieutenant Governor

9 Miller never named a designee.

10
..,

And, these -- in addition these all of Frank's staff

II 2 continued--Frank Edward's staff continue to work with us and we
,"(,, .~.~. me t, 1 i te r a 11 y , hundreds of hours trying to come up with the
,.
;~proposition and composition of these Article Committees that
u.,

1
.;,:would represent who we thought should represent these areas of
.\ ::t
I:) .c), interests, and yet still have the kind of calibre of people that
";, Ih ~would be knowledgable and able to write an article of the con-
e>

.(
17 ~~ sti tution.

I~

You have before you the end product of that result,

JI
I
1'I we -- the designees wound up their work just last week, and then

reported back to their principals, then their principals adopted

the recommendations with a few changes, and I think we're going

to have maybe one here, in addition to that.

23

So, that was the methodology that we used and you

~

,"I
Ilhave

them here

and we

can -- all of

us,

I

don't know everybody

.~~.

!I III on

here,

but

I

think all of us that worked here collectively can

1'-

",\LI'; 12

perhaps answer any question that you might have of why somebody

, II is on here or why somebody was left off or why

, II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE, Do you have a l i st -- does everybody

,t ;1 have a copy of these?

5i

MR. TIDWELL: They all have it.

,I

SPEAKER r1URPHY: I don't have a question, but I have a

7 statement on the Bill of Rights--on number 17, Carroll Dadismon

,from the Columbus Newspaper. You know I appointed him to the
IQ finance and disclosure commission and his employers would not

10 let him accept that, so he very well may not be able to accept it.

"..

I I le<

MR. TIDWELL: You might say that none of these people have

()
.c...

.;...;been contacted, of course, because it would be premature for us
.:
~
~to ask them if they will serve, in the event the Select Commit-

I
.~, tee should see fit not to have one of those on there; so, gen-

r
15 ;~erally, we thought their availabili ty was there, Mr. Speaker,

":>
16 ~,0 but, we

we'll have had

r
~
17 ~you know --

some people that may have moved since,

18 :1

SPEAKER MURPHY: I offered him that and he wanted to take

II
)9 I'it and his employers would not let him accert it.

~(I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask, you've got a good point,

~I !;YOU know, since there's no way these people could be contacted

" 'IIahead of time to see, if they would; now, wha t if we approye, like

23

I rn the Bill of Rights,

the people that are on here,

and you have'

Ir14 ne like say, Carroll Dadismon, might turn it down, now, we need

2'; lito have the authority, I think, in the nominating committee to

13

III" fill any vacancy without coming back to the Select Committe~.

'I

I,I

JUDGE DEEN: I so move.

:1

.i

[Hotion seconded from a committee member.]

iI

~ I:!'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. The motion is made and

Ii

II seconded that on any Articles Committee that is appointed, so
'!
t> I you have a member that declines, then the nominating commission
I

can fill that vacancy or that spot without coming back to the

Select Committee, okay.

All in favor say aye.

1(1

[Majority responded with, aye.]

All opposed?

[Negative response.]

It's unanimously approved, all right.

How do you want to consider these, Article by Arti-

I~ ~cle or do you all just want to take time to read them. Let's
":>
11
1(, !; look at the Bill of Rights and see if you have any comments on
Q
"To
.
17 : i t . We can just consider them Article by Article if you want,

I~ '! the Bill of Right.s.
,"

III

While you are looking over the list, I do want to

Ii

. .,

ilI'
':ll commend all the people that worked on these recommendations, they

",

~ I !did literally spend hundreds of hours and he put it very kindly
:1

,, 'when he said that they were our agents.

...

-, .'

:1 ,i

JUDGE DEEN: I move that we adopt the Bill of Righ ts.

II'I
:~
,

JUDGE CALHOUN: Well, I second it.

"
:) :1,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Judge Deen, seconded by Judge Calhoun

14 ,. \ I :: recommended the nominatiun of the Bill of Rights has recommendec.

All those in favor say, aye.

[Majority responded with, aye.)

All opposed?

[Negative response.]

7

It's unanimous. Article--

Well, next it will be Article III, the Legislative

'I

. I:

Branch.

(0

[Motion to move from a committee member.]

"z.

11 ,e<

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You move. Second? -- a nomination, I

I)

0-

(~:)~)r""- ~I~ ~'" don't think requires a second. That is a nomination to move.

~,.~

Is there any discussion?

'-

IJ ~

If not, all those in favor say, aye.

n

1:

15 .)

[Majority responded with, aye.)

,."".:~
111 I~

All opposed?

I)

Z

t
17 :~

[Negative response.)

r III

It's approved.

I III

Executive Boards and Commissions, Articles IV and V.

:n I
I

MR. TIDWELL: I'd like to make the comment here, we

~ 1 :qithought that those two Articles ought to be treated by one com-

~I
,, , 'mittee since they dealt with the same SUbject matter, although

, 1 they are two different Articles, and everyone seemed to kind of

~-1 I.' aq. ree. That wa s why they are toge ther, ra ther than havi ng two
~~ ;icommi ttecs working on two articles. Ii

J
15

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The only thing I notice about this. one,

..,


!: I don't notice anybody from the Administrative Branch on here,

,. .J
i

~ Ii Governor. Certainly, I think you ought to have a close liaison

'J

Ii

1 IjWith the workings of this committee.

.J

~i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'll tell you, I've looked at the list,

1

IiIi
6 I mean, and I've had in-put with it. I think you've got some

7 Ii good private citizens, legislators, but -- I'm not worried aboul

1

~ I: any balance, there's no department addressed in here. It would

i

~ i, be very difficult to just put a department head on it, I don't

..l..

)I) know

l
1
.-.~
_.-.

I J ..
o"

SENATOR HOLLmvAY: Well, I'm talking about from your stat

0-

w

~~~'t('#

12 ~ ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE~ That's all right. I don't want anybody

.('. . )'')\
~~=-2/\r--' .E;: I

".,.....

~ ou t

f
0

my 0 f f l.ce

on

.t
1

. 'l ,..

MR. TIDWELL: Some of our thinking Why department heads

0{

r

I~ ~and constitutional officers weren't put on here, if you put one

"i.<

::>

IG ~.J) everybody would say, why can't, you know, I

o

7-

0{

I' ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I f I'd ask anybody out of my of fice,

Charlie's observation is well put. I'm satisfied with it.

II

Is there a motion and a nomination?

r]

SENA'l'OR HOLLOWAY: I so move.

"'-.

[Motion seconded from a committee member.]

,,. '1
.... !

.~ :1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, it has been moved and second

~.' II:1 f or the nom. lna. tlon 0 f Artl.C 1e IV and V be approve d . All those

I :.1 in favor say, aye .

.' 'i I!
il

[Majority responded with, aye.]

r All opposed?
I [Negative response.]

3

It's unanimously adopted.

Okay. Taxation.

:;,
I

SPEAK ER MURPHY: I want to move to ~dd Don Casselberry

h the Taxation.

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me kind of bring up something and

I
8 i!be informal on this; after the so-called agency gotten back to

'I~ the people on the nominating committee, the Speaker said he had

lU some understanding he would move to put Don Casselberry on it

':
!
'I ~now, this only brings up one point, unless there is an objection,

""

(t~~j1)\r'~.~'.!' ) ~ .~,

I 2 ;:c:1 wouldn't think of this, but, what about the Senate, you've
~'; got three Representatives and three Senators, does that make any

"=> " I ~ ~difference to the Senate, do you think you all are going to add ~t

J~ ~the one you've got?

",

16 .J
""

SENATOR HOLLOWAY:

Not with the numbers we've got.

SPEAKER HLJRPIIY: The membership of the Taxation mernber-

Ii-: i ship worries me right considerably, because a great, great
II III I majori ty of the membe rship of that Artic le mcrnbe rship is from

'large areas of the State. 1 don't think a constitutional majority
!
would pass this thing, that one worries me to some extent, I

admi t that.

I :~3 ! i
'I
II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Looking at the balance that you have

"'..1 IIi and a lot vf these people are representing associations like
I
~:; I,-- I think you have some balance to it, you've got, I mean
i

I

r-

1'\ ,I 1 7

,""I

11 like Ed Killorin, I kno~ he's from Fulton County, but he

i II

I, represents the Georgia Forestry Association; you haVe a lot of

II

,, --

" other people; but, let's act on your motion first.

i ...

You move that we add Don Casselberry--Representative

Don Casselberry to it. Is there a second?

I)

[Motion seconded from a committee member.]

All right. Motion made and seconded that this list

H I be amended to include the name, Representative Don Casselberry.

I

q :1

All those in favor say, aye.

10

[Majority responded with, aye.]

"

II ,.,.

All opposed?

..".,,)

~~0r~", .. '- _/ ,./,

J2 u
,.
7-

"V'

Jf

,..
,~......

'r

,- ~

.~

[Negative response.] It's unanimous. He's added, Don Casselberry. Any other additions or deletions?
[Negative response.]

f.(

:0
I (, 'z" a~ 7.

If not, all those in favor of the selection of the

<l

17 =Taxation Committee with Don Casselberry being added to it say,

Pi I,., aye.
,'9
:0

[Majority resJ)onded with, aye. ] All opposed?

:I
:1
I' ,~

[Negative response. ] It's unanimous.

23

All right. Education, Article VIII.

24 i

You know, let me just point out here, David Gambrel,

I don't know whether you know it, but he's the One that's done a

I'.\('J.; 18
il lOt of work; he qot no I tblici ty, no glory, anything, but as far
,I,
, I! as the coordi no lion between the pri va te colleges, the publ ic

:colleges, vocational education, and the proprietary schools, he

1 ',has done a lot of work than just turn in a report, and he f s nevE'
i!
~ !Igotten any glory out of it, but, I just thought I'd bring that
': ') :i'Ili to your attention.

JUDGE DEEN: I move it's adoption.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 110ve for adoption. Any discussion?

[Negative response.]

III

If not, all those in favor say, aye.

[Majority responded with, aye.]

All opposed?

[Negative response.]

Unamiousiy adopted.

That takes us to Counties and Municipal Corporations,

"":>

!" ~ ~

REPRESEN'l'A'I'IVE CONNELL: We were just discussing this

:>

Z

17 i<l __ Article IX make-up. You may want to consider to have some

lil ,Ito fall by the wayside, adding some small County, most of them
iIII'
I'J lare from urban counties and about three 0 r four smaller Counties,

II 2n , you may want to consider.

II

.' I II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well what you're saying is in the event

!i

" II in which you wi 11 have some that turn us clown that they should

II'
:3 1:1 come from rural areas to give some balance.

:-! !I
:1 ~c 'I
~,'

Any other suggestions on that? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think it's real important that that

I'\I,! 19

Iil' be done, because it sure is

for that ~rticle, it's not so

!I bad on this other Article, but Counties and Municipal Corpora-
I
tions -- I think, Governor, you out to consider adding two or
l
! ' three more -- you haven't got but 14 on it--oh, I beg your pardu

24.

...,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well, I mean people like, take Ray

Jackson, he's from Bibb County, but, I mean he from the Georgia

....

Tax Officials Association, and Merle Grathouse of the Sheriff's

'i I Association. Do you want to look, and there's no co~nitment

Jt) there as far as the Senators and the Representatives, do you all

,z"'

11 ~ want to make any changes there, you've got Senate and House

.o>...

(0:~))r~~!'!! ~ ~?-Y1J'd,

I : .~.. members there, but what do you all think about it? SPEAKER MURPHY: Our Representatives, we've got two from

",-~,/ 'j

I

-.-

H!~ Fulton and one from Richmond, we really need to add somebody

.,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: \vell, can you aJ 1 get together, can

:'"0
n
If! :; you all just give us one more Senator from a rural area?

II

Do you want the book just to refresh your memory?

I"

JUDGE CALHOUN: Governor, I notice you have two people

J<} from Valdosta on here.

:0

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: One is from city government and --

.~...

'!

I

21

JUDGE CALHOUN: And, one is from the Area Planning and

1
,I

, , ,I Development Commiss ion, but speaking of a representa ti ve from a

,:
small area, Valdosta is not really too small, but James Beck,

who was a long time mayor, very active in the municipal associa-

"J.II

tion, and now I think he'd be a good representative.

"

Iii,

~J

I
I

(Several names of potential representatives were men'"

!i tioned amony the commi t teemen.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've had recommendations on Article

4 IX, that we add Senator Hodge Timmons and Represen ta ti ve Warren Evans.

All right. Is there a motion that Article IX, with

-; those two addi tions be ado:?ted?

I

"' I

SPEl\KER MURPHY: So moved.

I

II(J

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second?

1C'

[Motion seconded from a committee member.]

II ....
a:
()
.".-. 1: :
~J~r'" j

I~ ..>.~ .-. <t r.
15 ,~

"
'~"

l(

10
2

.~

,~

.r,
17

Motion made and seconded. All 1n favor say, aye. [Majority responded with, aye.] All opposed? [Negative response.] Adopted. Now, with the selection of the Articles Committees

II I~ having been made subject to their approval and being filled by

i; 19 " the Select Committee where they decline, this brings us to the

~(1 il"'iP01. nt that I just stated about our Executive Director resigning.

I

~ I I'

Talking with the Nominating Committee, and I've had

,'

II"I
!: an

opportunity

to

talk

with

everybody on

it except

the

Chief

,, \

:i
.;1 !!Justice, I talked with the Lieutenant Governor, the Speaker and

II

.1\
,

.~ ~ I others on i t--the l\ttorney General, abou t a departure from some-
I

.~

,,; I
!thing. Rather than paying a young man like Marty who did a com-

t.

L ..

1\.

~;

i/. '

21

:r-mendable job on this; but ill the passage of this thing, we need

I somebody--some older mature person that can

that's had some

J experience there that could kind of bring ~iome glue to the

-t Article Co~nittees and some, I think, statute to them.

5I

We discussed the name of Robin Harris, serving not

I (, I as a paid director as we had before, but just with the expense I I I allowances as a co~ittee member would have, and then having
,!

fi

i:

II II

adequate

staffing--professional staffing

under

that;

and,

that

<) I was the recommendation that they made. I just want to bring

10 this--this is not something that's been discussed, and, I think
11 7.
I) ~ this is about the most important thing that WP will consider if (. 0. ~"'"' somebody will have the stature to get out and push the passage .~ ~of this, will give the time to do so, and has the ability to.

~Robin served when he was ~n the General Assembly and the Jud~

1

T.

Ij ~ciary that when we rewrote this, and he served on one of the

"

11,

"!:J
~ commissions.

He's had a lot of experience 1.n the area.

c
17 (~: ::1

Bu t, I just want to bring that to you; and, as I

said, I ran it by everybody other than the Chief Justice and I If} couldn't get him the day we considered it.

20

I just want to say this, Robin, if you are available

I

21 .1 now to serve on this thing, and I've had to be candid wi th him,

.,I

,... i

/', t.

: I said I have not run it before the full committee, but, I don't

I

want to do this and go through all of this formality if you werei

I to turn it down; he said, well, if they really wanted him, he
25 ,I would serve.
L ..._.

f',\ I; I 22

[Discussion among the committeemen. I

Well, let me ask you this, I don't know exactly how to

J proceed on this.

4

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move that we follow the direction that

~ you outlined by offering this position

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Executive Director of the Select

Committee.

SPEAKER MURPHY: -- on the basis that you said for the

9 Select Committee, and staff it properly with people in our own

10 employ or whatever we need.

JI 12
. ~~;~f(~'1re~

I,
oI:~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Then ~0uld it be in order

,n..,

::
:~

tha t'

as

far

as

--

we're

not

going

to

pay

a

salary

as

we

did

;.;
~~

before

,

to

include

in

your

motion,

Tom,

that we

have

to

fit,

you

I~ ; know, per diem -- the expense and per diem in lieu of a salary.

I:) '" .c.x,'

Could we let -- it's paid out of the legislature,

16 ~'" you, the lieutenant governor and myself, set per diem and salary
o
;

-'(
l7 ~ for the Executi ve Director in lieu of a salary.

IX I
Ii

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: So move.

II) I!::
I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Would you accept that?

/:

~o Ii

SPEAKER NURPIIY: I accept that.

~J

I'
,I

:j

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. It's moved by Sena tor

II Holloway and seconded by the Speaker.

i ., ~
I

SPEAKER MURPHY:

.\1 !!let me do something --

No, I don't want to second something and

JUDGE CALHOUN: I'll second it.
I:

GOVERNOR BUS BEE: S"conded by Judge Calhoun.

2

Any discussioll on this?

[Negative response.]

4

If not, all those in favor say, aye.

5

[Majority responded with, aye.]

6

All opposed?

7

[Negative response.]

8

It's adopted.

9

All right. The staffing now, is -- do we have the

10 quarters, what do we need to do with the staffing on this, we

'z"'

11 :; need some good people.
o.".".

12 :
@r='~

{Discussion among the committeemen.} As far as the space is concernco, we perceive that

14 I
; they have the necessary space.

x<l
15 ,~
'"x
::>

This presents the problem after we get Robin of

16 ~'" assembling this personnel, and I'm going to recognize Senator

z

<l

"

17 '"" 'Holloway, since I will be involved and the Speaker will be

1,
...
I ~"~ .
I ..~i .,~., , ii' ~.,
I ,: .;~ ,~ : -,

I~ II invol ved in this, and the Lieutenant Governor.

lY IIII

SENATOR IIOLLOHAY: Well, I think I would move that you

three be authorized to staff the office, but, I think we should 21 add Robin Harris to that group, because --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's what that says, I think, it says

the Executive Director --

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Yeah, yeah.

I

25 j 1. _

GOVERNOR BUSBlm: Read that, if you would.

"'.i ., sfc a us ass::: $ :Uii tiS::: "" !P4 a:e.: II! Ii 1455 I: 44'" II",,';;; JUlin:: I" j# alSi :IUiA: :I4IUJtijili;:::41 a

tiC

I AI; I, 24

11--- - SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Recommend that the Executive Director
"' II be authorized to assemble necessary staff personnel and fix
,/
.~ their compensation subject to the approval of the Chairman of

4 the Select Conittee, the Speaker, and the Lieutenant Governor.

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The same as the other there for --

b

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: And, certainly with those of you can

7 keep the salaries in line with the legislative branch and what-

8 not, you know.

I

I

9

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

It's

paid

out

of

legislative

funds

i
too.!

10
..,

The motion is made then

z

... II I

la-:
o

'"

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Recommend that the Executive Director

~'" be authorized to assemble the necessary sta:; personnel and fix

I-
z
their compensation subject to the approval of the Chairman of

I

~ the Select Committee, the Speaker, and the Lieutenant Governor.

:<rt
15 ,~
'-'
'":~
16 ~
a'oJ z
17 g-1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's the motion. [Motion seconded from a committee member.]
And, there's a second to that.

18

Is there any discussion on that?

19

[Negative response.]

20

If not, all those in favor say, aye.

21

[Majority responded with, aye.]

22

All opposed?

23 !
24 i I
25L

[Negative response.] It's adopted. Is there any other business that you know of that

___._c.u..........

~--------

---.------.---.-.~-

.. - . ~-..._------ ..

. '
.'
..
'


PAGE 25

needs to come before the meeting?

....... '

[Negative response.]

3

Can we talk just a ,little bit about getting the --

4 I mean 'the -- I know we need to get with Robin Harris and -- but

5 we can't afford to lose any time if we're going to have this sub,-

6 mitted.~t! the first part.o~~~e se~~ion.

7

Any suggestions on'a time schedule or any other sug-:

:8 gestion?

. . '-1 , ..
. , ~ .'
~

I
I

9

, SENATOR HOL~O~AY:

!'
~ell( I think one the main things you(!

,

are going to have to watch, there's a lot of duplication in this

We've got cur schedules pretty'

>-
~.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well, this throws this over -- the

VI

~

J:

15 ~taxation goes over until -- you know, until after the next

l'

,

:'">

16 <~:l session as far as this constitution is concerned.

, ,1,

o

z

<t

17 ~

Any other observations?

18

"

[Negative response.]

19

If not, we will stand adjourned.

20 I

(Whereupon, at 3:10 p.m. o'clock, the meeting of the

21 Select Committee on Constitutional Revision adjourned.)

22
!
23

24

25

INDEX
Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on July 11, 1979

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 7-11-79 Proceedings. pp. 2-12 ARTICLE I: BILL OF RIGHTS.pp. 12-14 ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH. p. 14 ARTICLES IV: CONSTITUTIONAL BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS
and V: EXECUTIVE BRANCH. pp. 14-16 ARTICLE VII: TAXATION AND FINANCE. pp. 16-17 ARTICLE VIII: EDUCATION. pp. 17-18 ARTICLE IX: COUNTIES AND MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. pp. 18-20

n-------IIi!
I

---------------~--------------

PAGE
-- -----------------------------------:
!
I
I I,

.' ,
\i
7
i)
1'~._I

STATE OF GEORGIA
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION

'1,,'
,
Room 133 State Capitol Atlanta, Georgia
-,
Monday, December 17, 1979 2:00 p.m.

iT--~-___-

1 II PRESENT WERE: ,[

ii

"'I Ii .:.. II

COMMITTEE MEMBERS:

:11,

II

.' i

GOVERNOR GEORGE BUSBEE, CHAIRMAN

LT. GOVERNOR ZELL MILLER

1

SPEAKER THOMAS MURPHY

CHIEF JUSTICE H. E. NICHOLS

5

CHIEF JUDGE BRASWELL D. DEEN, JR.

ATTORNEY GENERAL ARTHUR BOLTON JUDGE MARCUS B. CALHOUN SENATOR AL HOLLOWAY

REPRESENTATIVE JACK CONNELL SENATOR HOWARD T. OVERBY REPRESENTATIVE WAYNE SNOW, JR.

SELECT COMMITTEE STAFF:

1 I ....
x. ::>
:l.
~
1.~ ~
) (\/~~~~St.V.ljJ/':)/1 /i~"\m,= ;~.:, ',_._~~-_/ / j 1 ,.

.'
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., 16 ~ w

., <~

[

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f'

ik

19
I
,~D

HR. ROBIN HARRIS MR. MELVIN HILL MS. VICKIE GREENBERG HR. MICHAEL HENRY
OFFICE OF' LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL:
HR. FRANK EDWARDS MS. CYNTHIA NONIDEZ
OTHERS:
MR. CHARLES TIDWELL MR. HAMILTON MCW}IORTER JUDGE DOROTHY BEASLEY JUDGE SYDNEY SMITH
!'1m. HAROLD CLARKE
REPRESENTATIVE ALBERT THOMPSON MR. THOMAS THOIillE-THOMSEN

21 I

n

PAGE 2
---------- "
I
I
\
i i

23

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) '.

LL.-._~.

.

..._._.

.

__ - ..---~-- - - -

,

__ I .

...... --- --_._-----------------'

PAGE 3

---------------------------------- - - I ~---------
PRO C E E DIN G S

l

I

l

~I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We're going to have a few that

I

i,l

I
I

;

i
'I

are

going

to be

slightly tardy because of the hearings upstairs i

Ii

,I ! but we'll go on and start and I'll call the meeting to order. I

The first thing, I'll calIon Mel Hill to call the

I
I

h roll at this time.

,.~

, ,I

MR. HILL: Mr. Busbee. Mr. Miller.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Here.

MR. HILL: Mr. Murphy.

<:)
.: I I ~:
r.,:
'::1
~
. 12 a:: '~l

SPEAKER MURPHY: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Nichols. JUSTICE NICHOLS: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Deen.

'-
1
,.~J
'"':;:1
1., ~ a
z
'I 'I'
:g

JUDGE DEEN: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Bolton. MR. BOLTON: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Calhoun. JUDGE CALHOUN: Here.

MR. HILL: Mr. Holloway.

(No response.)

2'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: He just walked out.

MR. HILL: Mr. Connell.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Here.

MR. HILL: Mr. Overby. SENATOR OVERBY: Here.

i I
____JI

ir-----

II

2 II

Ii

I'
3 I!

I"lR H}\.RRIS : Mr. Chairman, before we get into the

4 prepared agenda, I'd like to give an opportunity for just a

5 couple of minutes to Judge Beasley, who would like to extend

6 to the members of the Select Committee a special invitation.

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Dorothy?

8

JUDGE BEASLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9

I'm coming to you this afternoon as the Program

Chairman for the Judicial Convocation. The Institute of

z':'>

11

....
'Q"

Continuing

Judicial

Education plans

to

set

the

second Judicial

Q.

w

~~r~~ ~,.S.. VU~\

12 ~ Convocation with the Georgia judiciary in Athens at the Georgia
:-:
Center on January 28 and 29. Some of you know about it already,
i

-

14

>I-
t;,

because

you

are

going

to

be

speakers

and

are

going

to

introduce



1:

15 ~ others.

:'">
16 ~

It's going to be for two days, January 28 is a

Monday and Tuesday. The legislature, I am advised by

Ix Representative Snow, will be in recess. It will start with

19 a Monday luncheon and he will be the speaker at that time.

20

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Since I saw that, we may not be

21 recessing.

-,-,
JUDGE BEASLEY: You promised. At any rate, it ,,,ill

.,...

,
)

conclude on Tuesday afternoon in the middle of the afternoon,

so it will just take one night, but we would like very much I
c~, -" . for those that are on the Select Committee to attend if they

,L_~__.__ ~.

.. __.

~_....

. ._. __~ --_._-._-~-_. __.- - - - .--_._.....- - - - - - - - - - -. -.-- ----- .. --~-._.----~-------~

PAGE 5

11~~hether you're a judge or not, because it will give you an

,

:1
II

opportunity to see where the judiciary is going with regard

I,

3

II
il

to

the

Judicial

Article.

I

!

If you can attend the whole thing, we'll be delightedl

I

to have you, and you'll just have to let me know and we'll

make the proper arrangements.

-,
!

One of the unique things that they're going to have

actually two parts of the program -- the first thing will

<) a profile of the existing judicial structure insofar as we

10 .., are able to know what it is. We have been working on that for

z

11 ~ months and have not found anyone place where there is a

o

"w'"

(~~0r=!.'- ~ ~~

J2 ~ profile except through the National Center for State Courts, ;: so they will be presenting that part of the program. Also, we

\.:~~//)

I

~-- J4 ~ will have a cost analysis of the present structure, including


r
15 ~ what the state pays as well as the local governments.

:'">

j 6 .~..

Another unique feature will be that each administra-

::l

Z

17 ~" tive district will be

we'll have cross jurisdiction of all

18 the judges, which has not been done before. Perhaps this is

: ,)
the first time there has been a convocation of all the judges

20 . including the JP's and mayors and so forth, and we hope that

:?J . you will be there. ,)
I want to tell you how important I think it is for

23 you to see where the judiciary is coming from. I am now on

jury duty. Today is the first time in my entire life I have
25

PAGE 6
rr-------------- ------------------ ---- - ------------------- - __.- ---_._,---_._-~_._--~.~. Ii see things from the other man's point of view. If you will

2 II corne, you will understand a little bit better perhaps where

II II
3 IIIi the judges are corning from in regard to the judicial article.

Ii

4 .i

Thank you so much.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Thank you, Judge.

6

The next thing we had on the agenda was a synopsis

of the meeting of July 11th. On the back of your agenda is

a synopsis. You can glance at it now. If there are any q corrections to make, we'll hear them. This was sent to you.

10 Any corrections?

;J L
1! ,~ o <u>.-
12 :
~@ "~'"'~

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, this is approved. Now I'm going to calIon our Executive Director,

14 ~ Robin Harris, now to give us a general report concerning the

<
l:
15 ~ activities of the various Revision Committees.

':">

16 ~ w

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman and members of the Select

o-z

~
17 ~ Cornrni ttee, at your meeting last July you determined that you

18 wanted to go forward with modernizing Georgia's Constitution

1Y ion an article-by-article basis and you set certain time
I
20 .tables.
\
To accomplish this end, you elected certain committees!
22 , to be responsible for different articles, chose an Executive

Director, and authorized a staff. Your directive to us, your

2\ . staff, and to the committees was that you wanted Articles I, 11,1

I ~~

:11,

IV

and

X

ready for submission to the
--------- --- - ----- -

1980 Session -o-f -th--e- -----~ ~ -~----

PAGE 7

~-Gen~ral

~sse~~;:-"Y-O-U-

------furthe

r

-d

--------. etermined

that

-VI---i Articles

2 II through IX would have a target date to be on the ballot i.n

3 II November, 1982.

\

4

Let me say that you could not have chosen a finer

:1
I

5 II group of Georgia citizens than the ones you selected on the

:i

'I

6

II
II

various

cOlnmittees.

They responded to the charge given to

"

7 11 them, have met as often as needed oftentimes at personal

x sacrifice, have debated the issues, and present to you

!i

I

')

11
!I

formally

today

the

results

of

their

efforts.

'-

10
CJ Z

Between August 29 and November 30 the committees

11 ~ and subcommittees met for a total of 1,183-1/2 man hours --

o

"-

v

12 "~' person hours, if you will -- and staff time of your staff,

~J.'~' ~ ~ ~ the Legislative Counsel's Office and Mr. Tidwell contributed

-_._'

;

14 ~ another 3,200 hours to this effort.

'<",

J:

15 CJ

Objectives sought by you were brevity, clarity and

('";.

:'"J
10 :'" flexibility. As to brevity, the six Articles in question a

?

<'

17 ''""' currently utilize 2,794 computer units in the Legislative

Counsel's computer. If adopted in the proposed form, these

19 ,I Articles would OCCU?y 1,279 computer units, or a reduction of

20 54%.

21

It is our belief that the work products alBo add to

clarity and flexibility.

The chairmen of the committees on Articles I, III,

,
, , I,

I
!

-t IV and V are here today and what I would like, if it is

agreeable with the committee, is to call on those chairmen to

I
i

---,---_._----~-----'

_ . _ - - - - - - ~----_._---

.- -----------------------P-A--G-E--8----l

I' outline to you briefly the contents of the Articles they

2 I supervised, respond to specific questions that members of the

I,
j

,

3 Select Committee might have as to particular recommendations,

4 and the rationale behind those recommendations.

5

Representative Thompson was Chairman of Article I,

6 !i Article III was Harold Clarke and Articles IV and V were under

a committee chaired by Judge Smith.

Now whatever procedure you would like to have us

follow, we'll be happy to follow.

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to just

"z

11 ~ hearing from the Articles Committee Chairmen, in order of the

o

Q.

w

@ . . . . !12 ~ Article?

(No response.)

i
I

14 ,.. :;;

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, we'll call on Representativ~

<

I:

15 ~ Thompson who was Chairman of the Article I Committee.

:':">

16 ~
ow

You want to come up here where you'll have a table?

z



17 ~

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Members of the Committee v

18 our idea in revising Article I was to retain all the basic

19 ! rights and benefits that the Bill of Rights has traditionally

20 had for the citizens of this state. I think we have done just

21 about that, because I believe we have retained almost every

basic right that citizens have.

I want to certainly express my appreciation to the 24 staff because without the type of backup that we had from the

_- staff it would have been impossible to do this particular job.

_...-.-------_._-- .- -_._- --~---_...

_ _._----_ -- -_.- -- ..~-------.--

_. ..... - - - - - - '

PAGE 9

We were not particularly assigned the Preamble, but

famil~ 10 thing in the Bill of Rights which would indicate that it is

z"

11

~
.'0Q"...

still

public policy of

the

State of

Georgia

to

retain

the

I

~~ ~ ~ ~.

1 ')
l~

u'.~".. as

a

unit.

So we added into the Preamble some words, quote,

ClOT''''O "the importance of the family If , and if I can find that I'll

I
I

14 ~I read it to you so you can see exactly what that does.

!

V"O

T.

15 ~l

"To perpetuate the principles of free

j5

,~

;;,

16 z'Xl w

government, insure justice to all, preserve

Q

Z

<>:

'" 17 'Xl

peace, promote the interest and happiness of

18

the citizen and of the family, and transmit

19

to posterity "

20

We added those four words Ifand of the family" to

21 indicate what the public policy of the State of Georgia is,

22 and that's the only change we made there.

23

Coming on down to

24

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me interrupt just a second.

I
~

PAGE 10
11--Chang~-:~ i :~:~la~ned-:d i~--:~:e-~~~:y-question we' 11 _.~
:1
2 !i just stop at that point and then continue, so we won't have I
I
3 to go back.

4

I think you have heard the change that was made

5 there, to include the word "family". Is there any question on
II

SENATOR OVERBY: I'd like to ask, Mr. Chairman, what

8 I!ii was the reasoning back of that.

II 9

Ii
II

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: A gentleman from Augusta

10 was very concerned about the deterioration -- that's the

11

~-
<>:

impression I

got -- of

the

family,

and he

felt

that by putting

o

8@-- ".". . "w"

5V

') 1_

~<>: those words

in there,

it would

be

indicated that

it is the

CJE;;;:J

r - - -r-

/

~

public

policy

of

the

state

to

retain

the

family

as

a

unit.

/

I

I

14

>-
~

think

it

went

even

a

little

further

than

that.

We're getting

~

<l

r

15 ~ a lot of single parents now, we're getting some families with

='">

16

~...
o

just

one

parent .

I think he really meant for it to go far

"-
<t
17 ~ enough so that that would be considered a family unit as well

18 I,:i as the traditional married couple with children. That was the
jl
19 Ii!I reasoning that he gave at the time that he requested that this
~n, 20 'il,I,' be placed and the committee bought his argument and his

21 I! discussion.
II 22 ~!
Mel, is that basically correct?

23 I

MR. HILL: He originally proposed that we put

24 1I1i something into the body of the text itseJf, to speak to the

~~ I: issue of family, and try to preserve and protect the family.
~---------_._--_._._--------- - - - - -

PAGE 11
l ~:- comm~ttee--r~al~;,~ith-~~th:-:hangein definition, they
II I 2 were a little hesitant to try to define what it is and put it
3 Ii in the Constitution proper, and this proposal to state it as a I

4 \1 general policy of the state that people recognize the

I,

i

I

5 1 importance of 'the family, whatever, in the Preamble. It seemedl

1

6 illike that would be a good place to state it as a general

7

1',1' 1

policy

without

going

to

the

necessity

of

defining

exactly

what

Ii 'I
8 !i it means. We did some research and we found that the Preamble

i!

9

r"I
it

has

never

been

cited as

controlling

in

case

law,

so we

don't

II

IO feel that this is something that's going to jeopardize any ..,
z
decisions of the court.

SENATOR OVERBY: That was my concern.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any other questions?

(No response.)

15 .:>

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, go ahead.

"."

:::>

16 .~..

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Due Process and Equal

az



17 :i Protection. Basically the only change we made here was putting

IS the equal protection phrase into Paragraph I of Section I.

19 There is, as I understand it, at the present time no reference

'20 to due process in the Constitution.

21

There's one other thing that we did with that

~ 'I,
"-~ 'I particular section and that was to indicate that there could
'i 23 Ibe no violation of a person's civil rights based on race --

24 :'1iand the change really is sex, etc. and religion and so on.

!,

25 I'I ,This tracks basically the language of the 1970 Constitution,

. LL_~_~~._~

~_~

~_______________

--i

-----l PAGE 12
r ---------------------------------------- -----------------------------------_.-

11 which the Judiciary Committee got through the House of

2 II Representatives in 1970; i t was drafted in 1969, it passed

.

3 II,I the House of Representatives at that time in that particular I

4

III
I

form.

It didn't get through the Senate.

5 I

Those are basically the changes in Paragraph I.

!

6I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any questions on that paragraph?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I have one on that. As you say,

8 we have no due process clause in the Constitution, but under 9 the protection of the property of citizens the books are full

10 of cases and when we have, it's true, the equal protection

~

"z
11 ~ clause giving it the same treatment. What I am concerned about o "w-
12 ~ now is if we put this in the Constitution, people are protected

~"-'" ~ now certainly by their constitutional rights in the federal

14 ~ court but with the work and the caseload that we're having now, <;; :x:
15 ~ we're trying to divide it up, can anybody be accused of being a: :>
16 '~" a Pollock, he's got a case now coming directly to the Supreme 7 <
17 ~ Court, he was fired because he was a Pollock. I just use that

]8 as Ii an illustration. Sex, or anything else, we've got all these

19 III cases now coming to the Supreme Court and it'll just be an

20 I!I influx, overwhelming as I anticipate.

I

2] !

MR. BOLTON: Mr. Chief Justice, we're adding sex in

22 here, is this an ERA amendment?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: It sounds like it to me, I don't 24 ; know, it looks like it. I'm not unalterably opposed to ERA --

MR. BOLTON: I'm just trying to know what we're doing,

4 II'i, sex. I just have no objection to that, I think that everyone's

I s IIi' civil rights regardless of race, religion, sex or what-have-you,

6 ,III'I ought to be protected.

I

Ii!

!

7 Ii

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think they are being protected,

I:

'I

8 " that's my point.

Ii

9 II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm not trying to bring up an

10 argument on ERA right here, but I have been asked for me to

~
11 ~ construe it and of course I'm in the wrong branch, I can't,

..:'
"-
12 "~' but I think under the current provisions of the Constitution

~~~/"~~ ~ ~s~,

~ you have already held that you can't discriminate because of

14 ~ these reasons. But I think the question is, you know, with

~ r
15 .:, ERA and things that have already been voted by the legislature

-'

'.":>

16 ~ that are considered by them, is this going to bring that up,

cz

I!

-<
g;

Albert?

What was the committee's feeling?

ItVu

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: The committee felt this

19 !was proper and appropriate and they did not go into whether or

20 ,not this could be construed as an equal rights amendment, it
I
21 ,i was not discussed in that particular light. Some people would

22 construe it that way, but the words are plain, they're simple

23 :!and if that makes it an equal rights amendment, I just can't

24 see anything objectionable to it. If we're doing it anyway,

2) 'what's wrong with saying that we're doing it?

I

---------------_. ------- _ _.. - '

r,-. --- lPAGE 14

2

:~;:::::B::~LE::::::a:: ::~:-:-:-:-:-m-e-nts that I

3 II have heard from many members of the General Assembly in

I

4 II opposition to the ERA amendment is that we want to do it on ,

5 il the state level, and it appears to me that's what we're doing I

6 Ii, here.
II

ilIi
7

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I introduced a state equal rights

~I
8 ii amendment bill and both sides were very much opposed to it.

9

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'll be very frank, my analysis is

10 the same as what you just stated, I don't see where it brings

z~"
11 ~ it up at all, I think it's just a current provision of the .o0....
12 ~ law as construed in Georgia and this is not expanding that to
~ ~)r ~~ the federal level. All right?

14 ~

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Mr. Chairman, the first time

15 ~ we ever discussed this particular provision, at that time the
'::"> 16 ~lXl ERA was not even a matter of controversy in this country as far
az
4,
17 ~ as I know, I don't think it was.

18

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well isn't this the identical

19 language that passed the House?

20

MR. HILL: Yes.

21

MR. HARRIS: In 1970.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't think this ties in the ERA

-"~ ; at all, I think this is the identical language.

24
i 25 '!I: two.

JUDGE DEEN:

Mr. Chairman, let me make a comment or

I
I

Having authored Georgia's Woman's Jury Bill, hopefUl~

~~t-- 1

would not discriminate against women.

I PAGE 15
But the

I,

2

II
iI

Fourteenth

Amendment,

I

believe,

to

the

United

States

i

I'II

!

.~ !I Constitution says that no citizen shall be denied equal

I,

I

I

4 protection of the law. I don't believe it goes into race, sex,1

i

'

5 II national origin, religion, and so forth. Now I have no

I

I b \i objection to the race, national origin, religion or ancestry

7

II!II'

but

putting

the

word

"sex"

in

after

we

said

"and

of

the

I
family":

i,

I

8 :! in the Preamble, that we are promoting the family, there s a I

9 ,I United States Supreme Court case, Bell Terry, which ruled that \

10 two people of the same sex would constitute a family, not

'z-'

11 ~necessarily in that particular zoning case, but I would have

o

"w-

i2 ~ grave concern about putting the word "sex" in there even though

~J~ ~the ~SV~

~
majority of you may be correct but at this particular time

1
,4

~I with ERA,

this

would

be

doubtful

and

questionable

as

to

whether

':<r 15 ~or not we promote the family. Colorado has marriages between

:'"> 1(, a~> two of the same sex. lihether or not some federal court or

z:
17 ~some court could say all right, Georgia has put the words

18 absolute equal protection of the law as to sex, it could be

, (J
I J construed that -- hopefully not by Georgia courts -- but some

20 court could say two of the same sex could get married. So I

21 would oppose the word "sex" but I would have no objection to

: the words race, national origin, religion or ancestry.

23

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Select Committee at this time

24

I
I

can

propose

any

amendment.

25 ,

JUDGE DEEN: I would move to delete the word "sex" in

II.' .L-. __.__.. ._~_~~.~.

.~

.

r PAGE 16 ----------,
1 that particular paragraph I, leaving the rest intact, although

I,
:2 I"i it may not be --
I,

3 il'l
Ii

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You made a motion to that effect?

Ii

4 ii

JUDGE DEEN: Yes.

!I

5 "II,I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Ii

ii 6:

the

Select

Committee?

ii

Is there a second by a member of

II

7 :,

(No response.)

Ii

8 I"i
II 9 Ii second.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That motion dies for lack of a

10

Is there any other motion?

"z

11 .-
'o"

JUSTICE NICHOLS:

0-

~H

12 ~ whole thing be deleted.

@(~~~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

I would like to move that the Leave it

14 .>--

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Leave it like it was. I just

':<c

15 .:> don at think we can improve on the bill of rights.

"'"::l

16 ~
ow

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chief Justice has moved that

7.

17 ~ Paragraph I be changed back to the existing Constitution of the

18 !i Bill of Rights.

19 II

"No person shall be deprived of life, liberty,

Ii

20

or property except by due process of law. n

il

21 "I,
Ii

Is there a second?

.:2 I'I

MR. BOLTON: Itll second it.

",..'
..;;,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

24 i Now discussion on that motion.

2) II! motion?

L,...

-- - --- --------

J Anybody care to speak on that _ ------

JUDGE CALHOUN:

PAGE 17
---------- --------------,
I'd like to offer an amendment to

that motion. Maybe this is not the proper time. There's

a change made also in Section II, Paragraph III which says

4 "Protection to person and property is the paramount duty of
5 IIIi government, and shall be impartial and complete." If we delete Ii
6 ",I the proposed change here, we ought to re-enact that change.
II
7 Iili Of course, I guess we can come to that.

8 II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We'll come to that at that

9 I'Ii paragraph if that suits you, Judge.

10
..,

JUDGE CALHOUN: Yes, sir

z

11 oote-

JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's my intention, and let me

0-

w

'-

@;:i say this, Governor, I'm not opposed to the ERA, I'm just saying we're already taking care of this and I can see just an

14

~
1;;

over-abundance

of

cases

piling

into

the

Supreme

Court

on



1:

15 ~.., frivolous cases, civil rights cases, just like I said awhile

IX

:>

16

~
ow

ago,

someone would

be

fired

because he's

a

Pollock and

then

Z

~

}7 ~ we've got a case coming direct to the Supreme Court.

18

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion

19 of the motion?

20

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Let me make one statement.

21

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Representative Snow.

22

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I intend to vote for the

2J motion and I'm going to do it for one reason and I want to

explain it because I am very much concerned and interested in 25 IL,[' th.e re.v... ision of this Constitution, but I see that with _some _

PAGE 18
::::~~:~W::::~w::::-::~:::~:::~:::::,b:tm:::::e:::::::~:;~

the passage of what otherwise is a very good Article and good I
4 ' preparation, and I would hate to see it go down the drain in I
I
a general election because of some over-reaction on the part

() of some groups that were over-zealous. I support it for that

7 : reason though I don't believe it would have any real adverse

k effect as far as the interpretation to be made on it. I do

4 I think it could be misinterpreted by some groups in the state

1(..J and I don't want to give them any ammunition. .,

1J

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion on

"o,'."

~

J2 : the Chief Justice's motion?

@/'''''. ~

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I ..;' >

SPEAKER MURPHY: He wants to go back to "Paragraph I.

~

<

T:

15 ", Life, Liberty and property No person shall be deprived of .~

';('

::J

J(, '~"' life, liberty or property except by due process of law." Is

z
~
17 ~ that what he wants to go back to?

i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's right, the existing

I~ !! Constitution.

20

I JUSTICE NICHOLS, We've got case law on tbat, plenty

protect~o4. 2J i of cases have been decided interpreting that as equal

) ; The books are full of them.

23

SPEAKER MURPHY: May I ask the Chief Justice a

21

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker.

PAGE 19

~~- ~URPHY ,l I

- - -- -SPEl<KER

: The only thing, Mr. Chief Justice

, \\ those of us in the legislature and those of us who are going \

~ il to be charged with the responsibility of getting this thing

I

IIII
4 passed, and Mr. Thompson, I wish you would listen to me --

I I

5 II

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: I'm listening, Mr. Speaker. i

6 i'Il

I

SPEAKER MURPHY: Very quietly and very carefully.

I,

7 'III We're going to be faced with the proposition of trying to pass !

II

I

8 ii this thing through the legislature by two-thirds vote and if ! Ii

9 !! we leave something out that's going to cost us 26 votes we've \
I

10 got a' big problem, and we're going to have a big problem with

"711 ~ the public in passing this thing if we leave some of this rot.
o.c....

12 : And that's a matter that I think this committee ought to

5 0\r~"'b~1)')\J~!"!."~/.,


."I

address

itself

to

because

what

we

do

here

is

just

a

first

step

14 ~ in a long process of passage. I think we all ought to keep


:I:
15 ~ in our minds, sir, the political realities of passing this

:'">

J()

'~" thing
a

not

only

through

the

General

Assembly

but

by

the

people

z



17 ~ and I think this language may have some great part to play in

that. And I am a vivid opponent of the equal rights amendment,

J9 as everyone knows, Mr. Chief Justice.

20

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: May I say something?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Thompson.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: May I defend a position tha~
23 iwe have taken to some extent. I know I'm not a member of the i
Commission and I feel like I should be limited as far as what

I say --

.... ..

.

i

..

.

1

~--------

- - - - - - -- - - ------- ----~------------

PAGE 20

Ii

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, no, you go right ahead. We

:'. (IIi appreciate the work that you've done, you go right ahead.

i:

3 ,I II

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Speaking on what the

I

4 ! Speaker has just said, the suggestion that we do this came
i
5 : very strongly from the League of Women Voters. It was not
I

in the first draft that we did of this Article, this Section

7 I'm speaking now about the portion pertaining to sex -- the

8 ,: strongest request for;inclusion of anything that we have

9

!
I

within our Article

came

from the League of Women Voters

that

10 had to do with that one Article.

1J ~
u
o
cu, 1.2 ~
(~~~~,r~~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any other questions? (No response.)
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to ordering

14

>-
:;

the

previous

question?

~:

I

J S .:>
',-,"'
::::l

(No response.)

16 ~
a

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chair hears no~e, the previous

7.
<
}7 ~ question is ordered. All those on the Select Committee in

18 favor of the adoption of the Chief Justice's motion to go with

19 Paragraph I as it exists in the present Constitution, raise

20 your right hand.

21

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Question.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, question.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: His motion was to delete the

I
I

24
recommendation?

I

________~~~_~~~~!~SB~E~__~e_~_=~:__=_~~_ re~~~=_~d~:iO_~_~~~~ J

PAGE 21

~ticle Committee and --

2 Ii

SENATOR HOLLOWAY:

I

I

And go with the present --

1

II .< I
J

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And go with the present constitutit

II

<+ i That I s your motion, isn t tit?

I

ii:i

I

5 ,i

JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's right.

i

:1

(, ,I

SPEAKER MURPHY: Question.

I

:1

i

7, IIIi

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

8 II

SPEAKER MURPHY: The present Paragraph I or the

]1
9 II whole Bill of Rights?

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, just on Paragraph I. "No

"z

11

le<

person

shall

be deprived of

life,

liberty,

or property except

o

c..

t ~ ".:r'. by due process of law." That's the motion.

All right, all those in favor of that motion, raise

your hand.

15 ,~
' ':> e< :>
~6 ~
"'z"'
1/ :;;

(Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five. All right, all opposed.
(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is adopted, five to

J'J four.

20

All right, go ahead.

2J

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: The next substantive

2:- i change is indicated in Paragraph II on libel. The paragraph

has been rewritten to cover civil as well as criminal libel

24 and clarify the effect of truth as a defense. The provision

25 I concerning the power of judges to grant new trials in case of

Li_.__ ~

.. ~~

~.

-~------~~--------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - '

PAGE 22

a conviction was dropped as being unnecessary in light of

2 Article VI, Section IV, Paragraph VI.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion on thatpoint?

4

(No response.)

.5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, go ahead. There's no

substantive change there, is there?

MR. TIDWELL: Didn't you jump to Paragraph V?

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yeah. There are some 9 :1 other changes, I perhaps had better follow right straight on

10 through if I can the draft of the Article. Paragraph II and

OJ

Z

. 11

~.
'"C.I

Paragraph III,

Freedom of conscience,

we changed some

things

n.

'

17 ~; in there. For instance, the heading of Paragraph II is

(@Jr" : Freedom of conscience; the heading of Paragraph III originally

.,._.....

I.-l

on was also Freedom of conscience, but we changed that to

<:

1:

15 ':; Religious opinions and freedom of religion.

Paragraph II reads, nEach person has the natural

and inalienable right to worship God, each according to the is dictates of that person's own conscience and no human
19 authority shall, in any case, control or interfere . " What
20 we tried to do -- the only change we made here was instead
21 of saying nhe" and nhis", we used nthat person", we tried to
i ..... '1 1
put neuter gender in the thing so as to not reflect man.

Paragraph III -- I think these two are really :'4 , basically together -- "Religious opinions; freedom of

: religion. No inhabitant of this State shall be molested in ~

:.

.

0"_- __ .__._~.

.__~

- - - - - -. . - - - - - - - - . - . - ~ - -

... - ..---. ir--~- -----~

---_._--_.

PAGE 23

11 person or property or be prohibited from holding any public

I

_

II
:i

office or

trust

on

account

of

religious

opinions;

but

the

Ii

I

1

~ right of freedom of religion shall not be so construed as to I I

excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent

5 with the peace and safety of the State."

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any questions on that?

7

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Paragraph IV.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: We changed the language

iU "Liberty of speech" to "Freedom of speech and of the press

"z
t i ~ guaranteed. No law shall be passed to curtail or restrain

.oQ...

l ",

:,;
u

the

freedom of

speech

or of

the

press.

Every person may

~?Y-~\

(~~j))/'!C...;D :~ speak, write and publish sentiments on all subjects but

~:=~/I

";1 :: shall be responsible for the abuse of that liberty."

V>

<'

I

: 5 ~l

Most of the changes there were grammatical really.

~,

~

.~

i)

,.."
::

I

don't think that changes the substance.

,:;,

7.

':
,-"] C1

:I

..::l

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you, J. ust ~. n t h e '~nteres~I

of time, let me just ask if there's any objection to the

Committee's recommendation and if there's not, is there

20 objection to it being adopted by the Select Committee without

" having to go back through it.

stop.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: GOVERNOR BUSBEE:
JUSTICE NICHOLS:

There's one over in Section III. I
Well when we get to that, we'll I

Oh, I thought you were talking

______~

__ ~ ~_~.~

I I I
I
~~i

PAGE 24

rr------ ~--

-------~-------

-----------------------------------------, I

;i about the whole --

I

Ii

i

I,!'
2 :'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, I'm just talking about --

.\ like we've already taken up in Article I, Paragraphs I, II,

4 III and IV. All right, now we've already taken corrective

5 ! action on Paragraph I. Is there any objection that we adopt

h the Committee's recommendation on Paragraph I as amended by

7 this Committee, Paragraphs II, III and IV?

8

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not -- the Chair hears no

;0 objection and they are adopted.

,1

Z

J j .-

Now we'll start that with V and 1 1 11 do that each

::

j 2 ~ time.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Libel is the one that the

Notes and Comments -- what I was doing originally was just

15 ,~ going through the basic changes. That's the one that was ", '::">
16 ~ changed so that it applies to civil and criminal libel and it ,-, :z. <
17 '"-~ clarifies the effect of truth as a defense.

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on V?

19

(No response.)

i'

i

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. There's no substantive

21 I change, is there? You have any concern about V?

,-,

MR. HARRIS: It has been moved from where it was.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I understand that. Is there any

objection to adopting Paragraph V on Libel?

(No response.)

PAGE 25
GOVERN;;BU~~EE: Th~ ~hair h~ars ~ none ,- t '-:- adopted .1

2

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VI, protection

I
.\ of citizens, there are no changes in it except the removal of I

4 a period.

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection?

I

6

(No response.)

I

I

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph VI is adopted.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VII there are

I

g I no changes, right to keep and bear arms.

I

IU

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? Just renumbered,

V

7.

renumbere~. 11 :;; isn't it? o

I

w"-

12 ~

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Some of these are

/~...'-6--V-"I..' (j.,

;;;:
--

\'lI(.U_)-!-((\!\!'!-"" .. We thought that they were more logically

I

~~:-:J -

I

I

11 S

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any obj ection to paragraPhl

<\ 1:

[5 ~ VII as recommended by the Articles Committee? ~"

I

-'
11) r:;
'e.z.'
j 7 1;

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

1i-5

Paragraph VIII.

19

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VIII, Right to

20 assemble and petition. There is basically no change in that. I I I

),

._ 1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Just in the wording, I mean you

;1

22

I'
If

just

transposed

your

words

is

all?

I

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes, that's right, IIby

I

I

24 'I petition or remonstrance", we think that's a little better

I, I

I

location. lL._. . .. . .

- - . , - - - - - - - - - - - ------------~.-----.--~. - - -

~

rr-- -----~~--
!]
Ii
Ii
I
,
, i: ~, \!
"'

PAGE 26

-,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraph VIII?

I

(No response.)

I
i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

Paragraph IX?

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph IX. There are

(-, ,i no substantive changes in Paragraph IX.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting

g Paragraph IX?

<)

(No response.)

II)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph X.

iI

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph X, Right to the

,:->,-

,)
(/~"~',..~.-sJ-rv"<~~'''- ~'!!'.

~.
~.:.

courts. This one caused person shall be deprived

quite a bit of discussion. "No of the right to prosecute or defend

either in person or by an attorney that person's own cause

in any of the courts of this State." We removed the language

"or both". Justice Bowles felt that the language "or both"

was causing a lot of conflict and trouble in the State,

particularly in the appellate court because we have a situation

where a person was being appointed counsel as an indigent and

representing himself at the same time, and who was chief

counsel, who had a right to object, who had a right to direct

the case, who was principal counsel. All of that came into

question and we felt that by removing the words "or both", we

eliminated that question. The person could still be, at the

." discretion of the court, provided counsel to assist them but ._--".--. - - -

PAGE 27
he ~~~~~-:~~-~~.this conflict between who was ~hi~f counsel--l
I 2 would not arise the way we called ourselves redrafting this.

3

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any question about that? I

I
JUSTICE NICHOLS: Let me commend them on that becaus,

they did away with the Burney case that split us four to three I

f)

which said a person could represent himself and have counsel

I I

I

'7 too. You cause chaos in the trial courts.

i

i

I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think what you've done is, under

') the present Constitution as interpreted by the courts, a

iO person has a right to counsel if he's indigent, he still has

"z
; i -3 this right. He has a right to defend himself, but he can't

::..-

;~;9Y!1,h

~
~ elect both and create what was caused in this case and that

r- ('~ ~" ... ...\\
\ I\ll'-_)j )

0 .. " ....0

~~

was

the

intention

of

the

Committee.

\ ....:~__ . .: / i , '

Is there any further discussion on this?

L

(No response.)

~

" J (, I~

oW

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to the

z

<
'C"D adoption?

(No response.)

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's unanimously adopted.

Next paragraph?

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XI. Searches,

seizures and warrants, no changes.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adoption?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.
_. - - - - - ~._-----~-------_..

!~ -"

--', PAGE 28

Ii

Paragraph XII?

Ii

I" I
:' I:

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XII, Benefit

I

J

II I:

of counsel;

accusation;

list of witnesses;

I
compulsory process; i

1 trial by jury. The basic change that I can recall in this is

5 that the defendant must be furnished with a copy of the

o accusation -- must be, regardless of whether he requests it or

7 not, and a list of the witnesses on demand. That's the basic

change in this paragraph.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion?

1U

(No response.)

u,

11 IX

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to the

(j

a..,

/- --- (\f~~~~?-'Y~!:-\:~3\J

12
enn",.

J adoption
=~~:

of

this paragraph? (No response.)

'------

14 >
rfl
<
I'
15 ~,, XII?
,-"
:J
1(l ~ ,~,
z~
[7 ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph -- what is that
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XII. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: XII is adopted.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XIII, Habeas

corpus. We took out the language -- or at least we added in
2(: I: the language from a previous Constitution. There was some

21 dispute here because I personally favored just saying that

n "The writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended. 1t But the

':1:'.'' Committee in its wisdom thought that this was traditional

language Il unless in case of rebellion or invasion, the

public safety may require it. 1t And they added that to the

PAGE 29

fr---

i
habeas corpus provision.

..~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion?

l

(No response.)

I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there any objections to

Paragraph XIII on Habeas corpus?

(No response.)

'7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XIV,

Paragraph XIV.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I ask a question there?

If)

,,

0' i I

J-.

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0..

w

! +~

~
...

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: On XIV or XIII? SPEAKER MURPHY: On XIII. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, XIII SPEAKER MURPHY: Who is going to order it suspended?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's what I wanted to know.

1
1:) ~
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"':
-:;'1 ,;;::
j (1 1
':l

MR. BOLTON: The Governor. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, let's go back. Is there

!"1 '" objection to us reconsidering the action taken on the adoption

I>' of Paragraph XIII?

'0

(No response.)

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's reconsidered. All

'I ,j right, Mr. Speaker .)
SPEAKER MURPHY:

It ought to say who is going to

suspend it in case it's suspended.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't -- you know, I'll be honest

:'~ , about it

I'm not supposed to express myself~-=,ut_=-_-

._ _1

I

iIr

----------------------------- ----------------
SPEAKER MURPHY: You go right

ahead.

PAGE 30
-i

II
) iI

SENATOR OVERBY: I have a motion to make on that.

Iii'

3 ii

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Why don't we leave it like it is?

I'

4 I I don't quite see -- you know, this concerns me, to suspend

5 the habeas corpus like that.

SENATOR OVERBY: I have a motion, Mr. Chairman.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

~j I

SENATOR OVERBY: I move that it be amended to read

:1

9 I "The writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended."

\0

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, a motion is made. Is

"z
there a second?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's leaving it just like it

isn't it?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Is there discussion?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Paragraph XIV.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XIV, there are basically

no changes. "No person shall be compelled to give testimony

tending in any manner to be self-incriminating."

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's just language I think. Any

--' n----"--~--~-"----------~--

--~

----------------

1 IIII question on XIV?

PAGE 31

2 il

(No response.)

'I

3 \1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to the

adoption of XIV?
i!i
"
(No response.)

t)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

7

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XV, no chage.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to

adopting XV?

10

(No response.)

11 ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XVI?

o

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I,

/\I~(~,L:";J:i.~'J'1!),'r\-'~~'.!.'~

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5 person

REPRESENTATIVE THOt-1PSON: shall be put in jeopardy of

Paragraph XVI. life or liberty

II No more

than

. ,,,"//.Fl

" ~ once for the same offense except when a new trial has been

<-( 1:
15 ~ granted after conviction or in case of mistrial." We just

:':"> ]6 '~" tried to straighten out the language.

z



1'7 ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Any discussion on XVI?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the 20 adoption?

(No response.)

23 , Treason.
':,:1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. All right, REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: There's really no changes

in that. "Treason against the State of Georgia shall consist
. _~-- - - - - - --~--------~-

PAGE 32

r~---~--~- ------~---~-~-~-~-----

-----_._-------------------_._-_._------_.--, \

II of insurrection against the State, adhering to the State's

i

II

i

~ IIi' enemies or giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be

i,

II

5 Iil' convicted of treason .. " It's a matter of changing the '1

<-+ grammar in there.

:)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: XVII, is there objection?

6 I,:I

(No response.)

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, XVII is adopted. XVIII.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XVIII there are no

changes.

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the

adoption of XVIII?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chair hears none, it's

adopted. XIX.

15 .0

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XIX. "Neither banishment

'.:>

'~"

lG ,~.. beyond the limits of the State nor whipping shall be allowed

o

2

<:

17 ~ as a punishment for crime." Change of language location.

l~ II
19 II of XIX?
Ii
20 Ii
1: 21 I'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chair hears none, it's

adopted. XX.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XX. Involuntary servitude.

24 ! They took out "slavery" because they thought that involuntary

25 i servitude included slavery within the State of Georgia and_~~_~~

1.-'-- __..__ _._. ." __,.. _.__~ __._ _. ~

.__ - - . - .. -.--.--------~~~---.----~

PAGE

p---~-~-~--~~

.

I II left in "for contempt of court".
!I

1,1

2 ii

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on

3 I,i Paragraph XX?

33
l I
I

4

(No response.)

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXI remains the same.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Objection to XXI?

!() 'z.:J
11 ~:

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XXII.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: "No person shall be

compelled to pay costs in any criminal case except after

conviction on final trial." They wanted to clarify the

-(

l'

IS language there. '':' [Yo

~"l

1(,

co
z

w

Cl

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

l:.

,7

~
':"0

XXII?

Any objection to the adoption of

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XXIII.

:0

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXIII remains the same.

21

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting XXIII?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. XXIV.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXIV, the language has

been changed almost completely. "The General Assembly shall
- - - -~--------------_._---

-_ - - - - - - - _ . - - - - -.----

.... - - ~ - - - - - - _ _----~~---

--

... -- - - -- - - - -

-

PAGE 34

protect by law from levy and sale by virtue of any process

2 I under the laws of this State a portion of the property of

1 each person in an amount of not less than $1,600.00 and shall

4 have the authority to define to whom any such additional

) exemptions shall be allowed; to specify the amount of such
'I
G exemptions; to provide for the manner of exempting such property

7 and for the sale, alienation and encumbrance thereof .. "

,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me interrupt you just a minute.

"

<) As I understand it, the Constitution currently provides for

10 an exemption in the amount of up to $1,600.00 for the head of

'..:1

7

II

>-
'o"

a

household's

property,

is that right?

Q,.

(~r:3)~"r",-.:,~.

i",~'
..

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And by statute, the legislature

"------ \.. / ............. __

i

14 >- has extended the exemption, statutory exemption, up to $5,000. j-'

i f '

:r:

15 ~ All that you're doing is you're leaving the Constitution with

](,

'"'"
~ a c.:l

floor

in

there

of

$1,600,. 00

and

then

leaving

it

up

to

the

o

'z.

<r

I'

~ >1

General

Assembly.

18 ii

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: That's right.

""'I

19 1,1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And also, the head of household

20 II has been extended to all persons, rather than just the head ,I I
2i of household.

,~

,

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: That's right.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's the force and effect of it. i

I

i

I

,'4 il Now then, rather than reading all that, that's all it does.

I

"l.!l\IlY qu~stions or~~scussion 011_that?

' ,,__ ,,_,

~

PAGE 35

2

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to

l

3 the adoption of XXIV?

4

MR. BOLTON: ~qhat do you mean, head of a household?

5 One person living in a house?

I

I

6

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've got a lot of houses with

I

I
7 more than one person living in them.

\

8

MR. BOLTON: I know, I'm just -- how much is this I

going to affect school income?

I

I

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is levy and sale, the

I

I

Ii ~ constitutional homestead. o

I
I

0..

MR. BOLTON: All right, I see, 1 1 m sorry.

I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You know, if you and your wife

i

i

jointly own property there, in order to have a levy and sale,

I
I

This is just against levy and I

sale.
z
<: [7 ~

Is there any objection to the adoption of XXIV?

JUDGE DEEN; Mr. Chairman, there's a bill pending ,

i

i

1'J in the legislature now that would eliminate I think the

I

husband as the head of a house. Assuming that would pass,

I

I

21 where you wouldnlt have a head. What effect would this have i

here?

!

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think it would clarify it because I
I
,:.+ now it says any person is exempt and that's as to that person. I

If you had a judgment against you and I and we're both heads I

- - - - - - -_._._-------- -_.- - ---- ---------._. .

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.-J

PAGE 36 --------------------------,

of household, we're both exempted from levy and sale up to

I

2 $1,600 constitutionally and $5,000 statutorily. Now if you

3 and your wife own a house together, I think you're the head

4 of the household under the law today, and you both owned it, -'i ,: you both had a judgment against it, I think your exemption

6 would be $1,600 each, your constitutional exemption, as this

i is written, the same as it would be for you and I.

il

JUDGE DEEN: If the husband is eliminated as the

9 head, then there will be no head --

10

MR. HARRIS: Each person would have

'z"

1J ....
.':".~.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE; Each person would have that as

~ /----12

IX ,,.}

against

their own property,

you would always

be

able

to

keep

~

(~ ,6j~

"......

.z...
~

$1,600 under the Constitution and $5,000 or whatever the

11 '.... cor ,,;

1:

15 ,:,

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10 .'z"..

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j7

IX
'"

legislature fixed. They have now fixed it statutorily at $5,000.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That would be ten for both? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's up to the legislature. It'd

lk be $1,600 under the Constitution for each person plus any

19 additional amount the legislature gives that person.

:'0

,,I
"

SPEAKER MURPHY: Correct, sir.

21

MR. BOLTON: And there is a Federal Bankruptcy case

"") -~
which said the legislative act is unconstitutional.

13

GOVERNOR BUSBEE; Well this would make --

24 'I

MR. BOLTON: This would make it constitutional,

:

..~ 5 I
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th_at's right.

_..J!

PAGE 37
-~-O-V-E-RN-;;-~~-SB-E-E-: -It~for your own property. weIll

is there objection or any further discussion?

(No response.)
I!

I

i":

4 II,
II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No further discussion, is there
I

5 objection?

I

(No response.)

I
I

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it' s adopted. All right. I

8

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXV. Spouse's separate I

estate. You'll remember before Orr, this particular section

10 provided that the wife's estate so and and so forth. We

1I

~.
0o':

took

that

out

and

it

reads

now

"The

separate

property

of

each

"-

..::...S_Yit,f

12

:
..

spouse

shall

remain

the

separate

property

of

that

spouse

(~~~. / ...;r "'\

....
except as otherwise provided by statute."
,

The only other

L"7 ,>-~ alternative that we even considered was just removing that

v,

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15 ~ section altogether, but we left it in and made it apply to

:":>~

16 ~ either party, husband or wife.

z

17 ~

JUDGE CALHOUN: Question here.

Why did you use the

word "statute" here? Ordinarily it's "provided by law". Was

i ') there any particular reason for that?

.20

MR. HILL: That's because we didn't want to imply

21 that the common law would come back into the --

,)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm no authority, but this supposedty

,

",
.c.>

I

addresses

the 2EE. case,

doesn't

it?

I
I

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes, sir.

I
I

I

~p .'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any other questions about the

I
I

_ _~_~.. _.

. __ ..

.

._ _....J

PAGE 38

------------------------------

-,

other questions or discussion?

I
I

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adopting

4 Paragraph XXV?

5

(No response.)

(;

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XXVI, there are

8 , no changes.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: XXVI, is there any objection?

10

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Section II,
o"'-
"-
~,

@f~'~12 : Paragraph I. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON:

Paragraph I is just like

14

,. ....

the

original,

there

are

no

changes

in

it at

all,

that

goes

~

r

15 ..:.>, way back to about four Constitutions .

<X ::>

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

17 ~ Paragraph I in Section II?

Is there objection to adoption of

18

(No response.)

19

GOVERNO~ BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph

20 II.

2t

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph II, Object of

government. There is a change of language here but I don't

think it basically changes the meaning.

24

"The people of this State have the inherent right

2~ ! of regulating their internal government. Government is
- --- -- ---------~- - - - - - - - - - - - --

PAGE 39
------~
1 i11\ instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the

2 Ii people; and at all times they have the right to alter or

II

I

3 II reform the same whenever the public good may require it. 1I

IIi

4 il

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any question on Paragraph II?

I
I
i i

I" i

5

il
Ii

(No response.)

I

i
'I

I

6I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption?1

i

7

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. III.
I
9 I:i' There's no substantive change on III?

10

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: No substantive change.

'2"-

11 ...

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the

adoption of Paragraph III?

JUDGE CALHOUN: Yes. I think there is a substantive

15 ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

tD

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16 :

JUDGE CALHOUN: The word IIcompletell is left out. I

D

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~

17 f:i liked the original paragraph III, which said IIProtection to

18 Ii person and property is the paramount duty of government, and :1
19 shall be impartial and complete." That's as lucid and

complete a statement as I think you can make.

21

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Oh, I'm sorry, let me say the way

22, I did that, I think we're going to have to reconsider

Paragraph II because they've combined it. The Roman Numeral 24 III there is what I wasreferring to, which is under what you

were talking about. Do you see what I'm talking about? We
,,--------,----,----------- -------,

PAGE 40

adoPt:~~d~~ i s l ------,-~_._._--------

II

Paragraph II, the old Paragraph III that

'I

I

2 II stricken there, i t would not be addressed there. It's in the I

I!
3 il next paragraph where you have it.

I ! i

I
"

i
I

4

MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I might say that the

I

!

5 Committee omitted Paragraph III because of the equal protectioni

!

I

6 language in Paragraph I, which you have omitted. So that I

1

7 think the Committee, if it were meeting again, would
'Ii
8 :1 probably want something to this effect back in here.

q

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is what I'm getting back to.

10 I didn't realize when I called on Paragraph II and you said

Cl

Z.

II

.'o"
,<l.

there

was

no

change,

I

didn't see the old Paragraph III down

~ 12
rp-.~d~Vc'"2~

~
~
,

there.

Is there objection to reconsidering Paragraph II,

~

I

14 ,. which included striking that old Paragraph III, so we might

v>

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1S ~ reconsider that? Is there objection?

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16 ~ ~ o Z
-0:
17 :ii

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, we'll reconsider. Now

[1\ this is what we're talking about now, going back to the old
III
19 Paragraph III. "Protection the duty of government. Protection

20 to person and property is the paramount duty of government, ~j and shall be impartial and complete." In view of what we did

22 on the Judge's motion there --

23

JUDGE CALHOUN: Mr. Chairman, I move that we re-

insert Paragraph III in the original language.

l~,

. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And appropriately number all

PAGE 41

,r- -----.-..-----..-- --- ------------ - --

remaining paragraphs. All right, is there a second?

2

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it.

l

3

I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion?

I

,1

(No response.)

I

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor, say I

(, aye.

I

7

(Ayes. )

I

K

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

')

(No response.)

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And that's unanimous. All right,

I

uz
]1 ~ now 1 1 11 continue to refer to the paragraphs as used by the
[)

I
I
I

""'
Articles Committee. New Paragraph IlIon Separation of

I

legislative, judicial and executive powers.

I
!

i

I

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: No changes.

i

i

15 .:>

GOVERNOR BUSBEE; All right, any discussion on that I

~".="">

I

16

~ woz

paragraph?

<

17 ;;:

(No response.)

I

I u'!

I
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those -- well, is therei

19 objection to the adoption of Paragraph III?

20

(No response.)

21

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph

23

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph IV, there are

24 25

changes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

I
i~ Is there objection to adopting

IT---'--- -.-.-.----.----.-.-.

,I

(No response.)

I

2

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

PAGE V.

4-2-----,
I
I

3

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph V there are

no changes.

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting it?

(No response.)

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. VI.

('( I.'~

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VI. There are

some changes there. They just left the simple statement

10 that "The civil authority shall be superior to the military."

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11

:-.
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That

took

out

housing

and

quartering

and

a

few other things

'.l.

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12 u'" that they felt was unnecessary.

8@Jr ~ .... z :;:

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Antiquated. Any discussion on

14 .>.... Paragraph VI?

~

J:

15 ~

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Just one thing. Let me ask you,

0

:'>"

16 '.z".. Mr. Chairman, later on down on militia, you left that in

Cl

z.

17 :'"n for historical reasons and I just wondered about the

18 Ii quartering of -- that's the thing that broke the camel's back 19 and brought on the Revolutionary War, you know. I agree with 20 you that it's obsolete and antiquated but for historical 21 reasons it might not be obnoxious to leave it in there. I

don't perceive that you'd ever have somebody quartered in your

house but neither do I say that that's an impossibility.

JUDGE DEEN: I'd like to move to put that back in

although that's a constitutional right that no one is using no~

L

_

PAGE 43

-a-li~~ta~ion agai:~t 1 !,' or it's

governmental power to put troopsl

in your home, but nonetheless to sell this Constitution to

the people I think they want more rights -- at least they

II

4 don't want to feel that we're taking away some of these rights.1

~ Ii I'd like to see that back in.

I

;1!

I) I; I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You don't want to take away the I
I

i

7 right of a person to have troops quartered in their houses?

;" ,

I

JUDGE DEEN: They have a right to not have any

I
I

I

!

military troops quartered in their homes, that's a constitutionrl

10 right.

c'
7.

I

II
"o"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think as Representative Thompson

Q.

'"

stated, they were just trying to shorten it, they felt it was

antiquated, but evidently you don't. There is a motion made

by the Chief Justice and seconded by you Judge, that we leave

IS .,,~, that Article as written. Is that the correct motion?

':J

1(I ~
a

SPEAKER MURPHY: Is that the only reason, just

Z
17 ~ because it has been in there all these years? Is that the

only reason y'all want to put it in there?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: No, the only reason is they left

the other one about the militia down there, they said for

21 historical reasons --

,')
SPEAKER MURPHY: We ain't got to that though yet,

23 Mr. Chief Justice.

24

I JUSTICE NICHOLS: I know, but if we leave this one in I

and come to the other one and leave it in we've

I

J

PAGE 44

----

---~I

SPEAKER MURPHY: Let's take this one out and go

I

I

to the other one and take it out, we're still in good shape.

I
I

I

JUSTICE NICHOLS: That'd be all right too, but

"

4 you do away with the historical background, that's what I'm

saying. I didn't make that motion, I just made that comment.

SPEAKER MURPHY: You're letting the Governor put 7 i words in your mouth.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well let me ask you a question,

9 Judge, on that. It says you can't do this "nor in time of

[0 war, except by the civil magistrate", now who is the civil

'"

II

"
x

magistrate?

~)

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JUS'l'ICE NICHOLS: Well anybody that's a civil

judge, justice of the peace.

14 >_

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l'

15


,'0,9'

there.

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W
.:>

7.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: My God, that's enough right GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't know how to approach

this one.

'X

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I was just trying to determine

J9 ' why was the militia more important than the -- historically,

20 , than the

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Historically -- the Committee, I

think according to Mr. Thompson, historically, you know in the

Revolutionary War, you quartered the troops in the homes. Now

you say we might need that right in the future. You made a

motion.

._---~-_._---------

r------- PAGE 45 JU;;~CE NICHOLS: Historically that's the same a s l

2 \ the -- seems to me it has the same or as much historical

3 II background and necessity as does the militia. I'll go along \

4 II with taking them both out.

I

5

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's what I want to do, take

I

6 them both out. Can I make a substitute motion?

I

I

7 8

make a SUb:::::::Rm:::::E:'dA:~l:i:::~rt::~ :::a:::i::~ted to III

9

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we adopt Paragraph IV as

i

10 recommended by the Committee.

Czl 11 ~
'o"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You mean VI?

\
!
I

a.

~,

.12 ~
@r'~

SPEAKER MURPHY: VI, yes, sir. SENATOR OVERBY: I second that.

I I
I

14 >-

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is we adopt Paragraph

!;,



:I:

15 .:> VI as recommended by the Cemmittee. Is there objection?

"'of.
;)

16 ~ Well, is there a second?

C

2


17 ~

SENATOR OVERBY: I seconded it.

18

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there further discussion?

19

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I presume the Speaker's going

20 to have another motion when we get over further.

21

SPEAKER MURPHY: I will, sir.

22

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well, all those in favor, raise

23 . your hand.
24

(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all opposed.

PAGE 46

------- -- ----- -------- ..- . - ---,_._ . n---'~~

~--

~----------_.,-~-------------

Ij

Ii
1 I'

(A vote was cast.)

II

------------ ----~

2 i"l

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, there's one vote

I

I

3 i negative and all others present in the affirmative. It's

!
I

I

4 adopted.

I
I

i

5

SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, you've dissented by yourself

before, haven't you?

7

JUDGE DEEN: I have.

8

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VII in the

9 original one was removed completely. That was the paragraph

10 on General laws; uniform operation. It was deleted from this

11

...
'o"

section because it was

incorporated

in the

proposed Article

0-

w

~t""~~12 ~
~~

III.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection

14 .).-. to the adoption of this with the idea that if we don't go
'<"
l:

15 ..:.>, along with the provision in Article III we'll come back. Is

0:

16

3~
c

there

objection

to

the

adoption

of

this

deletion

until

we

Z

<l
]7 ~ consider III?

18

(No response.)

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's deleted.

20

JUDGE DEEN: You're talking about Paragraph VII

21 there?
) !

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right, Paragraph VII, they've

23 provided for it in Article III. I'm just saying we're not

24 taking final action but if they're going to put it in III,

2:' L:Ii you won't . need ._i_~ t _h.e_r.e. . All. righ. t, P. aragraph VII, Separation

------- --------------

PAGE 47

of church and state. It adds "cult" -- well, go ahead.

2

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: It also indicates -- makes

3 it clear that not only can they not appropriate money, but

4 state's properties as well as money, personal property, things

-

5 of that kind.

6

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Property is the addition?

7

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Property is an addition

1\ to make it clear.

9

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker.

10

SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I ask a question here? And

z<,;)

11 fa-:. please, don't anyone take this to be an affront to them, but

o

"-

~@r~'1

)
-

~
u if

we

put

this

language

in

there

could

they,

say

some

religious

individual who is abundantly religious, fuss about my church

14

;
!;;

league

playing

baseball

on

my

school

property

because

of

this

<l
r

15

.0 a'O:.J

constitutional

provision

and

confront

the

Supreme

Court of

:>

16

.~... CzI

Georgia

for

them

playing

baseball

on

--

the

church

league

<:

17 ~ playing baseball on my high school baseball field?

18

JUDGE DEEN: That would be an accomodation of free

19 exercise

20

SPEAKER MURPHY: We've got folks fussing about that

21 now.

JUDGE DEEN: It has to be something of more

significance probably than that.

24 Ii

'11

SPEAKER MURPHY: We've got folks fussing about that

25

I:
Lii right

now ~

in my

count_y and

I

sure

don't

want

to

give

I them no~

r-----.---.--.-.
1,1' anunun~t~on.

PAGE 48
-----------~--------~-l

2

MR. HILL: We considered using the word "used",

I

I

3

I
i

"ever be used" and then it was felt,

no,

they didn't mean that,1

4 "appropriated for such purpose" they felt was more -- would I !

5 ! require an affirmative action on the part of state government.

6

MR. HARRIS: To give them the property.

7

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think it goes back to gratuities,

8 doesn't it? You're giving to religious purposes but not

9 i property, funds, gratuities. I

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have a little bit of concern'

"z

II

t-
'o.C".L.

here

to

this

point,

where

it

says

"No money

shall

ever be

~ 12 ~ taken from the public treasury, directly or indirectly, in

~J~ aid of any church, sect, cult . " I think we concur in that,

14

; ~

" or

religious

denomination

or

of

any

sectarian

institution

::z:

15 .0
":':">

" That says no money shall ever be appropriated. Now

16

.~..
oz

it's

a

different

proposition

though

when

you

say

that

"nor

17 ~ shall any public property ever be appropriated for any such

18 purpose." If you

19

JUSTICE NICHOLS: You're letting them use it, they

20 may be using it but you can't appropriate it. You can give

21 them money but you can't give them property.

22

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You can't give them money.

I

23

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You can't give them money.

I

24
Ii

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I say you can't, now you can't 9ivej

I,i.

25 lIiLthem pro_perty, but up until now you didn't have property in

2 r~here.

PAGE 49 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Governor, I would argue

J II if I were before a court right now that appropriating property 4 II'' is the same as appropriating money anyway, but this just
I5 clearly states

6 II

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Yeah, but it has been violated, I

7 !i mean --

~

II
Ii

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: It has been violated

"

9 'II and that's one of the things we looked at.

10

JUSTICE NICHOLS: That was a loophole.

"z

11 .,.,.,

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Many of us disagreed with

."o.".

~r~~ ~sv~,

12

~
~

the

appropriating

of

property.

and knowingly.

This was done intentionally

14 ,>..-.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I would agree with you too, Mr.

'<

:I:

15

-0
,-"

Thompson,

that

I

don't

see

any

difference

in

property

and

0:

:J

16

'~"
a

money

or

real

estate.

But that has been the loophole down

Z

..:

17 ~ through the years in the Constitution where some religious

Iii, :, sect might -- you couldn't appropriate money to them, but you

19

il
Ii

could

appropriate

property

and

they

could

have

that,

and

it

20 Iil' has been done.
Ii

21 ::

JUDGE DEEN: There are three or four things that

'),
federal money can be used, say for parochial schools, transpor-

L, J'
24

tation, buses, textbooks that are secular and not for any ;I'1iI religious books. You cannot use monies for teachers because

JI

2:'

IiI
lL

th

e

y.__.say

y._.o_..u.. _...c a n ' t

control

the

teacher

but

you

can

check

the

l PAGE 50
I ~~;~~tbOOkS. So there are some th~~-~~--:ow that you can and
2 II you can't appropriate, just like police protection. But the

3 II thing that worries me really on this, separation of church and I
4 I:1; state has never been in our State Constitution before. Isn't I
5 IIi'I that correct? And this is a phrase that Thomas Jefferson

6 ,": used many years ago. He rejected it later, but the word
7 IIii "church" for the first 150 years the court cases were saying
Ii
8!'1 that "church" meant theistic religions and the last fifteen
I:
i;
q 1'1 or twenty years, the Cedar case and the Trosco v. Watson

10 case holds that there are some non-theistic and atheistic

<z:J

11 '"o.""."-. religions. And what worries me here is the fact that if we're

~ 12 ~ going to separate church, it indicates we're separating only

~r~ the theistic religious groups from our government and our

14

~
....

state.

Of course later on down here it says religious

::;:

:r::

15 .:> denominations, but I'd feel a little bit better about it if

<:J

'::">

16 ~... we would put "religious denominations, theistic or atheistic"

az

<

17 ~ Then that would take care of Trosco v. Watson which says that

18 Ii if you have a belief in no Creator, this is an atheistic
Ii
I'
19 I religion. Secular humanism is one example, is a religion.

20 II If we're just going to put separation of church and state, it

21

II
IiI'

appears

to

me

we're

saying

to

the

theistic

church

people

that

22

11'1
I

we're

going

to

separate

you

from

the

state,

but we're

not

II

23

Ii
iII'

saying

anything

about

the

agnostic

or

atheistic

religious

24 IiII'I be1~ers and I think I'd like to move -- I may not get a second

Ii 25 on this one either but maybe sooner or later I will --

r--

SENATOR OVERBY: Give it a try, Judge.

PAGE 51

2 II

JUDGE DEEN. All right. Right after the words

3 1',;1 "religious denomination" put a conuna "whether theistic or
4 IIii a theistic" would make me feel better. Of course, you've still "i
5 Iii: got your separation of church, you could put both theistic i: Ii
h II "nd atheistic, from state. In other words, when you just say

ii
7 separation of church and state you're building the old
II
8 'iIli Jeffersonian wall against the theistic church believers and

9

II
:I!

you're

not

saying

anything

about

separating

the

non-theistic

10 and agnostic and atheistic believers from the state, and all

Cl

Z

11

....
er.

of

them are

religions

and

I

want to

separate both of them

0

"-

~~ ~)(~'~ \~~ //

12 .u"'.".' I'm for driving that wall of separation, but we need to include ;: z "' all of them. ~

'-_.~--

J4 >~:r:

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Wouldn't they be included in

15 ~ "any sectarian institution"?

'e-r'.

J

16 "'-'
"Cz'l

JUDGE DEEN: Well I think it might be covered down



17 'c"o there where it says "or religious denomination" because you've

18 got several kinds of different --

19

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I have no objection, I'll second

20 your motion. I don't see any harm to it.

21

JUDGE DEEN: I'll put the words "whether theistic or

"Y-) atheistic" after the words "religious denomination". I think

23 that would take care of it.

24

JUSTICE NICHOLS: You want it in the title too?

:~ ~

JUDGE DEEN: I'd like to have "Separation of church,

- - - - - ._------- _ _.. . _ - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ii both theistic and atheistic, and state.
I2 put that in the title and in the body.

PAGE 52 -,
i
I'd like to move to

3I

SPEAKER MURPHY: Governor, can I get back to my

I4 point? II,
5 II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There has been a motion made and

6 I seconded. Discussion? Mr. Speaker?

I

7!

SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I get back to my problem now,

I

III
8 !I what started all this discussion? Where it says "nor shall

9 i!"Ii, any publ~. c property ever be appropriated for any such

10 purpose," would it be in order to move that "appropriated"

be stricken and put "transferred for any such purpose". I

don't want my kids to quit playing church league baseball on

a baseball field now. You know, I never thought they'd stop

us from praying in school, but they did, you know. And some

Justice somewhere done that, Mr. Chief Justice, you know.

(Laughter. )

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I wonder where.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What you're saying is you can't

transfer money from the treasury it says you cannot take

any money from the public treasury, directly or indirectly,

and what you're saying is down in "nor shall any public

22 property ever be transferred . ", you want to put directly

23 or indirectly?

24

SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't care how you -- no, wait a

25 II' minute now. Just so my church league can continue to play on
lL

PAGE 53
~~:~-~~seball field, that's what I'm interested in, in threel

2 towns as a matter of fact.

3

SENATOR OVERBY: Mr. Speaker, are they going to have I

I

to pass this thing?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Look, let me ask you this -- Mr.

Speaker, I'm going to take the Judge's motion which does not

address this. I'm going to divide the question if I might,

if there's no objection. We'll take this motion first, and

the words that you are suggesting is to put right after the

10 word "church", is that it?

JUDGE DEEN: Right after the word "church", put

comma, "both theistic and atheistic, and state" and then down

in the middle part after the words "religious denomination"

put comma, "whether theistic or atheistic, or of any sectarian I

15 ~ institution "

"
'O"J

16 3 a :z.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption

<
j'l ~ of -- is there a second to that?

IS

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I seconded it.

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion?

20

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well I'm just going to make one

:: ( statement about it. I don't think we ought to be putting

additional verbage in this Constitution, especially some verbag,
I

that would give rise to recognizing something a lot of us don'tl

:' -I

I
feel like ought to be recognized in the Constitution, and that I

is atheistic religion.

L

_

__.

.

----J

I r----

PAGE 54
----1

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: It'd be hard to get it

I

2 II passed, wouldn't it.

i'lI
3 II
I! 4 it.

JUDGE DEEN:

I I
I I
The Supreme Court has already recognized)
i

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I realize that, but I don't I

6 see any reason to put it in the Constitution.

7

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think it's really redundant,

~ Judge, don't you, really?

9

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Thatls your second that says it's

10 redundant
..,

z: I I l-
oe<
~ ~,

(Laughter. )

j2 :
@ (~ ~V ~d )F~~I sides.

SENATOR OVERBY: The Chief Justice has done switched

14 ;

JUSTICE NICHOLS: No, I said lId go along with it, I

I-

~

r

15 .':.>, don't see it does any harm, but it does raise a question as

e<

~
16 3 to bringing in the atheists -- coming in and start objecting to a z
17 ~ it.

IS II
I,

19

I
I

means

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: We donlt know what that

20

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think it's redundant, I don't

21 think it's necessary but I'll go along with it.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Why don't we vote on that?

23

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've got a motion and a second.

24 All in favor of the Judge's motion there about adding those

25 additional words, raise your hands. L_

PAGE 55

I I-----~ ~

(Votes were cast.)

A11-r-i-g-h-t-,-a-l::J

2I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: One, two.

II

3

II
,;

(Votes were cast.)

I
I

!i

4 I,i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, the motion is lost.

I

5

II
II

JUDGE DEEN: I didn't even get my second.

i\

Ii I) ,I II,III

SPEAKER MURPHY: My language won't work, Governor,

7

Ii II

because

then you couldn't even

sell

it

to

a

church

if you

II

.~

I
Ii

wanted to.

!i

I,

9

Ii
I.

II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

II

Right.

!O

SPEAKER MURPHY: But I just can't buy that language

"z
there at all.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, now going to the second part

of the question, "nor shall any public property ever be

appropriated for such purpose". That is, the first provision

I') ..:> says you can't transfer money, this saying you can't

''1

16

',:z":'0'
w,:;,

appropriate

property

for

such

purpose.

Is there a motion

z:

<:

]7 '"C!: that that be included or not?

18

MR. BOLTON: The Speaker wanted to change the word

19 "appropriated"

2fJ

SPEAKER MURPHY: That won't work, Mr. Bolton, for

the simple reason then you couldn't even sell it to a church
if we did that, for adequate compensation. That won't work. ii
:.~ You might say "nor shall any public property ever be tranSferret

~.,. ! without adequate compensation for any such purpose" f but you I \re

2~i ~~~ ~~h_~~C~~ ~ got to have some way you could even sell i_t__ __

__

PAGE 56

I~----- ----~---

II

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, under -- for whatever

II
2 II value Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary might have, under

II
3 IIIi!' the word "appropriate", it says "To set apart for or assign

4 !ili to a particular purpose or use."

5

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Well now that's -- what you're

6 talking about Mr. Speaker is your personal property. We're

7 talking about State property here, so appropriate --

8

SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, it says "any public

9 property", Judge, it don't say state, it says, state, county,

10 city, municipal, whatever it is, that's public property, sir.

VJ

<:

11 ....

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Well let me see, I thought you

0:

o

Q.

u

12 ~ said -- "No money shall ever be taken from the public treasury . . n

@r~

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the county, city, state or

14 ;.. whatever. ~

<l
r

15 ,~

JUSTICE NICHOLS: -- It directly or indirectly, in

<.:J

:'>"

le,

~
::;

aid

of

any

church "

I get a different meaning from that.

Z

-<l
17 ~ I think that's public money, not private property, that means

IS public.

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Judge, we've got two questions

20 here and we've already acted on one. We said we're going

21 with "No money shall ever be taken from the public treasury ..

22 and given to any church, sect, cult or religious denomination ~3 Ii or any sectarian institution. Now the question is, do you want

that to be extended -- not saying that you can't take public

25 money from the treasury and transfer it, but you're going to

:1
'.l-~

~_ .._ _

~--~--~-~-~~-----~

PAGE 57
~ put dow~that no property shall ever be appropriated for any
2 II'I,i such purpose. That is an additional meaning, it's not just

3

II
,,!

a

change

in words,

it's

an

additional meaning.

4

SPEAKER MURPHY: It's a big change.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: What happens if the city

6 gives them water?

7

JUDGE CALHOUN: Suppose we add the word "property"

8 after "money", to say "No public money or property shall ever

9 be taken from the public treasury in aid of ... "

JO

SPEAKER MURPHY: You can't take property from the

treasury, Judge, is the problem.

JUDGE CALHOUN: That would cover your property and

it wouldn't be taken from. You could allow the use of it

without it being taken from.

15 Q

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: "Transferred from the State"

'':""J

J (,

~ wa

would

do

it,

Mr.

Speaker.

z

i 7 ~'"

MR. HARRIS: How about instead of the word

III "appropriate", the word "given"?

]')

SPEAKER MURPHY: Well actually, Senator, you don't

20 Ii want your city or your county giving the property to churches,

really. I want my church kids to play baseball and softball

in the summer.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think we're going to have to

2~1 ! bring this to a question or we won't get through this Article.

,!,

25 'l'i
L-~

,JUSTICE N~CHO~S: __ ~_~ ~

I

I'm

missing

something.

I
.~

don't

see!J

. - - ... Ir----------~--~-~---

-.--------~-----

il how "nor shall any public property ever be

PAGE 58
.- ---------~---l
appropriated for I

Ii
2 I:i,

any such purpose", you're still talking about public property, I

3

I:1,
"

you're not talking about private property.

!
i

I

SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, if the school system in

!

5 Haralson County owns a building, that's public property. If

6 they own a football field, that's public property.

'1
I

JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's right.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I believe your court would hold

'-) that.

10

JUSTICE NICHOLS: But are you talking about your

;;J

11

!..:. '0"

property or

are

you talking

about

their

property?

<l.

w

~ 0 ..J2 .'':".!

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: His concern I think, Mr. Justice,

f-

7-

"'---./ !""j

~
~

is

whether

the

term

"appropriate"

means

that

if

the

school

J4

-
f-

board

was

to

let

the

church

school

corne

over

and--

",

<

J:

J:1 .:>

SPEAKER MURPHY: The churches have a church league

,e">

"

16

'z-0
w

and

they

play

in

Bremen,

Buchanan,

Tallapoosa

and

Waco

on

0
.L,

17 a,r:, the school property all summer.

18

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is that an appropriation of the

19 property.

20

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Why we do that in Chickamauga

21 too
., 1

SPEAKER MURPHY: Do you want to have some nut come

in and stop you?

24
I
Ii 2~ II
LL.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: No.

,,

i SPEAKER MURPHY: That' 5 what I f m trying to bring~
.. _ - -

PAGE 59

-1 your attention. I'm glad you woke up at last, Mr. Chairman.

2

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I still don't think that's

!

i

3 appropriating.

I i

4

SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, if I had seven votes like

5 you on the bench all the time I'd be satisfied from now on,

6 but I --

7

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Don't say things like that, Mr.

8 Speaker.

<)

SPEAKER MURPHY: The Judge, whatever he says, that's

10 the way it's going to be, but "z JUSTICE NICHOLS: I wish to God I could believe that.

(Laughter. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, let's --

SPEAKER MURPHY: What if this question got in

15 ~ certain federal courts, do you know what they're going to say?

1,.:1

:'>"

... 16

<Xl
z

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, I need a motion to

'::1

Z

<i

17

Cr.
(~

either

put

it

in

or

take

it

out,

one

or

the

other.

The

I ~ I, Article Committee has moved that we include property in the 19 terms "nor shall any public property ever be appropriated for

20 II any such purpose." Is there a motion that that language go ~ n?iI

I:

I

21

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move that we strike the word

22 "appropriate" and insert the word "given".

MR. TIDWELL: Mr. Speaker, that's already prohibited
,,
~+ by the gratuities section, you can't give public property away

:') Ii to anybody.
,------- ---------------- - - -

- - - - - - - - - - - _.._-------~-

~--

-.----

--;;~~~_;R-MU~PHY;.._~-

- ------.----.-.---.--.-
move we strike it.

-----P--A--G-E-----6-0------l

, Ii

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: A motion is made, is there a

!

3 Ii second?

!

!:1i

SPEAKER MURPHY; I've learned how too, Judge.

:)

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I'll second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, the motion is made and

seconded that those words "nor shall any public property money

ever be appropriated for any such purpose." --

SPEAKER MURPHY: "Public property".

to

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: ..... nor shall any public property

,?

Z

11 .... ever be appropriated for any such purpose."

"C'

a.

w

CL
"'~

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Governor--

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It's covered elsewhere in the

Constitution, isn't it, gratuities?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all of those -- is

there discussion?

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: I wanted to make --

IS

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: I'm the one that insisted 20 that that language go in there, because there are some pretty 21 bad abuses in the State of Georgia right now where property ,1 is being given to people and I think there ought to be some

prohibition against that. This is the only occasion in this

,'

i

~--t whole document where I think I got really black, but I did get I

25 Ii black here. We have passed laws in the Geor~i_a....Genera::""",AssembJ]

u...._._ _._..

~

._

PAGE 61

~~~~h 1

permits, where a school system has books and things

l

., . which the school board decides is surplus, that they can give

I

I 3 it to sectarian schools or anybody else they want to. That

4 means that these counties where they have these Christian

I 5 segregation academies, a school board that is basically not

6 really concerned with their public school system, they can

I

I
7 buy some brand new books, declare those books surplus and give I I

8 them to these segregation academies. And I think that that

9 ougnt to be prohibited, I think that ought to be stopped and

10 I think this is the place to stop it right here. I think
~,
z
the language that I insisted on going in here would accomplish

that purpose.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me say one thing, Albert.

Later on in the Constitution when you get to gratuities, there'

15 ;~ a proposal that we allow gratuities with two sessions of the

u;:

;)

16 ~.., legislature, to other than individuals, so that would permit

cz.

<>:

17

,,; OJ

just what

you're

saying.

I think it would be illegal for it

]8 to be done now, what you're saying, unless we were to adopt

19 the recommendation that's made later on.

20

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Well we've been doing it

21 and that's my concern. This is the only place I knew of where

22 I could attack that particular problem and so I put that in

23 there. You think that that would permit it?

24

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well right now the gratuities

25 I section of the Constitution I think the Attorney General said

PAGE 62 . . . - - - - - . r--~~----------------------___----_ ~ _ . _ - ~ . _ - - - - - - - ~ - - - - _ . _ - - -

i would prohibit that being done, what you've just said.

ii

2 II

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Well we're in violation

3 of it.

4

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But if you put this in now, later

-r, on there would be a way to get around it because --

SPEAKER MURPHY: Where Albert's violation is coming

7 in, you remember that school that we -- for that lady we

passed that bill for that time, which is they're coming in and
q declaring property surplus and they're selling it at public
10 bid and nobody goes and they're bidding a dollar or two dollarslI.
I
i
That's the way they're getting around the gratuities law.

That ain't going to stop this. All this is going to do is

hurt innocent folks here.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: I just think it needs to

be stopped and this was an attempt on my part to stop it.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I agree with you that ought to be

stopped, but I think this is going to hurt innocent folks here.

HI

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right

19

SPEAKER MURPHY: Go ahead and vote.

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is -- The Speaker's

21 motion is that those words be deleted, the new words I just

read, and there was a second. Is there any further discussion?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor of the 2S motion say aye.

. - - - - --------_..
(Ayes. )

PAGE 63

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

(Nays. )

4

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We'd better do a show of hands.

5 All in favor of the Speaker's motion, raise your hands.

6

(Votes were cast.)

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five. All opposed.

8

(Votes were cast.)

9

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five.

10

(Laughter. )

'z"

11 "'o".

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: What do they call that, the hot

I0-
(~_\,.~j"~ ~ seat?

\\~'--//

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Itll vote to go along and delete it.,

'-'-

14.~ I'll go with the motion. The motion is adopted to delete

<x

15 .:> "nor shall any public property ever be appropriated for any

3"'=">
j(J such purpose."

I do want to emphasize one thing though,

o

z

..:

17 ~ Albert, I concur with what you say and I would support

18 legislation to do that because I think it's totally wrong.

19

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: That brings us to --

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Also, in voting, I consider

21 appropriated to be used for, appropriated for a purpose, I

think you use it for a purpose, I think that's appropriation I

and quite different than taking public money from the treasury. I
I
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: I thought appropriation

meant used also and I wanted to prohibit that too. ,L....._ _ -- _

I

~

r-- -- - - ----- _._.._--~-----_.~----_.-.

---------

PAGE 64

t I'II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Next we're going to lotteries,

l
I

!" :

!

"

.; tIiI it's deleted in XI

i

3

r
::

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: We can just take all those I

4 II at the same time. We thought that there was no place for a
i,

s specific prohibition on lotteries, lobbying and this type

fraud in the Bill of Rights. If they should be prohibited,

7 they should be prohibited just like any other kind and that's

8 by statute, so we deleted those three provisions.

<)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

10

MR. BOLTON: That's what, lobbying

U

7-

11 ~

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Lobbying, lottery and this

o

"-

~);~~~ ~ ~:9~'li:,j.\

12 ~~"' general fraud section here.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It goes on all the prohibition

----' 14 ~~ liThe General Assembly shall have the power to provide for the

'<
1:
15 ~ punishment of fraud; and, shall provide by law, for reaching

':":> 16 6'" property of the debtor concealed from the creditor."
cz'
<l
17 ~ that was taken out of all three of these paragraphs.

All of

18

All right?

II,

19 ! ii

SPEAKER MURPHY: Would that then mean, sir, that we

20 'II, could pass a state lottery by just a constitutional majority

II
?J :1 instead of a two-thirds majority?

"'i

22 '

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: If you take it out, it won't

23 be in there.

MR. HARRIS: You could treat that like any other --

MR. BOLTON: You could call it the Harris Lottery Act

PAGE 65

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the way I would construe it,

2 that we could pass a state lottery with a constitutional majority and not have to have a two-thirds vote in the House

4 now.

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph XI is the one old

6 Paragraph XI, we'll consider separately if there is no

7 objection and then we'll get to Paragraphs XII and XIII, on

lotteries. All right.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I didn't come here to raise trouble,

I

10 I just raise the question.

I

11 ',z."..

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think it's a good question.

"o

~

w

~ All right, now I need a motion though one way or the other,

~

to put it in or take it out, and then we'll have discussion.

The Articles Committee recommends to the Select Committee that

Article -- Paragraph XI on lotteries in the old Constitution

be stricken. You can read for yourselves what it does there.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I move the Committee's

IK recommendation.

19

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it.

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

21 Any further discussion?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor, say aye. (Ayes. )
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

I~

-- --l ---------------

PAGE 66

(No response.)

!'II

2 II
:!

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Deleted. All right, now having
I

3 il II I

completed that separately, on old Paragraph XII, is there any

I

I'Ii,

4 Iili objection to deleting as recommended by the Committee, old

11
I

5 Paragraph XII?

,

I

6

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: If you don't get that out of ther1'

7

i II

the

jails

are

not going

to

be

big enough.

I

II

8 II
'I
9 il deleted. 'i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

If there is no objection, it's

10

Old Paragraph XIII, is there objection to dropping

C)
z

11 oaf-: Paragraph XIII as recommended by the Article Committee?

0.. w

12 :
~~r'~

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, old Paragraph XIII i.s

14

;
<f-
:r

deleted

as

recommended.

15 .:>
C)

All right, Section III, General Provisions, Albert,

IX

16 3:> Paragraph I.

Q

Z



17 ~

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: This is the eminent domain

18 section.

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I've got real questions about that.

20

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Just let me say this.

21 This is an extremely complicated section and we sought all the

help that we could get. Mike Henry, who is on the staff, did

a lot of research on this and came up with some language which
24 i
:1 the Committee bought. He came up with it at our direction
[,
Ii 25 because the other language is voluminous, it's difficult to

r ~ PAGE 67 un.~ers~an~~-~-'- s two pages, three pages of language almost

2 'I which the Committee reading it had difficulty in interpreting

3 !II it. I understand the courts have done quite a bit in the way

II

4

I
Iil'

of

interpreting

that.

We had some other considerations.

The

5 II'II declaration of taking which was put into this for the benefit

Ii,

6 I! of the Highway Department. We were hoping that we retained

7 Ii that in the language that we have here because we think -- we
ii
8 agree that the Highway Department ought to be able to get
I"i
') " title to the property at the time of the original condemnation

10 without waiting for all the appeals and other things which

"z

II

....
ao:

would

go

along

with

it.

We added to this particular section

Q.
12 ~'" another departure which is that the reasonable costs and

II

(~~)_._. ~ /~:)YRd

expenses of contesting one of these things, the General AssemblV

i

-

14 ~ can provide by law for the payment of reasonable expenses,

I

':;,(

I

:t:

15 .:. but you're going to have to read this yourselves and come up I

""::>

I

16 'z.".. with whatever determination you want. a

I

z

<'

J "7

IX
'"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't know how to proceed on

I

I

18 i' this. There's been a lot of members who have expressed some I

19

concern on the Select Committee about this paragraph.

I
I think i

20 what we need to do is kind of discuss the major overall changes II

21 that you're making right here and then get the sense of the

I

I

1,

, Select Committee and if we have to have some redrafting based I

23 'on that, then we'll just have to have it redrafted. But let I

i,~ ~Oin~_~~ 24 I me see if I can state some of the changes.

I

2"

I_think_on_e Of_ the things thatl'<>Il're

-------. . --~---------- --~------

PAGE 68
-------~-------~---------

1

you had the case of White vs. Georgia Po"er Company, "here

2 you had a 3-3 vote by the Supreme Court and you had one Judge,
I
3 a Superior Court Judge filling in -- that was Marcus, wasn't !

4 it, filling in there? So you're disqualified.

5

Anyway, they held that the attorneys' fees would be

6 included in the condemnation award. Wasn't that the White

7 case that y'all had?

~;

JUDGE CALHOUN: Whatever the jury found was

<) necessary expense.

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Supreme Court then came back

~,

z

1I

...
o0:

in

the

B.P.O.E.

case

in

Dekalb

County

and

reversed

this

on

a

c..

w

~r~~ ~~

12

~
~

4-3

decision.

So what we would do is come back and reverse -- ,

I mean and say that it is included. That would be one change.

14 .:>..- I'm not arguing for nor against at this time

~

:x:

I) ,~
'".""J

The next thing that you did was you went along

lh

~ 'a"

with

the

declaration

of

taking

method,

on

prepayment

you

say

Z



17

0: ell

for

transportation

purposes

that

you

would

also

have

to

put

I (~ up the compensation for any other public purposes. Isn't

19 that one of the changes?

20

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: They insisted that the

21 money that is uncontested -- this is just generally the idea

Y)
if there has been an offer of X number of dollars, that they
., ,
..... ~"l have to go ahead and pay that.

2f t

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. And the next change, and

25 I, this would be a major change as far as State expenses are

J

L____

~

~__~_ _ . - - - -

PAGE 69

I r~~ncerned' along with those attorneys' fees, would be the

II

2 II relocation. The present law, you have the federal statutes

,I

311 where you have federal money involved, provides for attorneys' I

II

I

4 !I fees and for relocation expenses, a considerable amount of the

IiI!
5 federal monies can be used. This would extend that to the

6 ,I state. This is a substantial change as far as condemnation is

il
7 IIII concerned and eminent domain. ii,

1) 'I

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Governor, can I say this?

i:

]I
9 Ii The language is slightly different, it says that they may Ii

10 the General Assembly may provide for relocation expenses. It

"z

II

I-
.'oQ"...

says

that

they shall

provide

for

these

incidental

expenses

12
(~~~-S;-yd'~)/,)/r"~o

~
~~

and

attorneys' fees. GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

That's correct.

-----

J 4 >-

~

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I made some notes on this. If

<I.

~

15 ~ you'll let me read you what I think will take care of this

':":> 16 .~.. situation on your notes. "Paragraph I. Eminent domain. (a)
o z <
17 ~ Private property shall not be taken or damaged for public

II) purposes without just and adequate compensation " (insert
Ii
19 "first being paid period"). Strike out "in the manner and

20 at the time provided by law."

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: You say "being first paid"?

-') I

JUSTICE NICHOLS: "Being first paid." Now that's

--'1
,..) where -- a person ought not to have to wait if they're going

24 to take his property, he ought to get paid for it when they

25 take it.

I
--------------------------~

PAGE 70
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPS;~:--~~-at-d-e-s-t-ro-y-s-~-h-e---I

Highway Department's ability to get title.

I

I

!

3 II
ii

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That would do away with quick

4

Ii"
"

taking,

Judge.

-s il!i

JUSTICE NICHOLS: The Highway Department or nobody

Ii
(, Ii ought not

never have been able to take a person's property,

ii

7

ii
il

the Woodside

case

held

that.

I'

8 i property has been paid for.

The title never passes until the

I

9I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead.

10

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Let me go ahead with the rest of

cz?

IJ

~
o'"

this paragraph.

0-

w

~ 12 ~

"The General Assembly shall provide by law for

~r~ the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses incurred

14 .~.. by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation_!"

':<c

15 ~
":":>"

Now that's what the Constitution says now, "just

16

~
""z'

and

adequate

compensation".

17 ~

"(b) The General Assembly shall by law require

18 Ii the condemnor to pay just and adequate compensation as a

19 condition precedent to the exercise of the right of eminent

20 domain and shall provide for the disbursement of the same to

21 the end that the rights and equities of the property owner,

lien holders, and the State and its subdivisions may be

protected." The General Assembly shall do that.

24

"(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of the

25 i Constitution, the General Assembly may provide by law for

L

..

.__

..

- - --~----_.--~--

PAGE 71

relocation assistance and payments to persons displaced

2 ! through the exercise of the power of eminent domain.

3

"Private ways. In case of necessity, private ways

4 may be granted upon just and adequate compensation being

5 first paid by the applicant."

6

Now I think that would meet what you're asking for.

I.
7 It's sort of contradictory in one place where it says here

8

1\
II

"The General Assembly shall by law require the condemnor to

!I

9 make prepayments against adequate compensation . " What

10 does that mean? How much to pay against it? " shall

Czl

11

....
e<

require the condemnor to make prepayment against adequate

0

"w-

12 u'" compensation as a condition precedent . " Why not just

~@F ~

i=

z
w

require

the

condemnor

to

make

just

and

adequate

compensation

~

14 ,.. as a condition precedent? '-

'<

J:

15 ~

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The quick taking is gone then.

Cl

:':">

16 '2". w

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask if there would be any

0

Z
<
17 ''"" objection on the part of the Select Committee, Justice

18 Nichols has some observations that he has in writing there

19 that I'd like the benefit of. The Attorney General is

20 preparing some, the Transportation Department is concerned

21 about this. You couldn't build a highway until after there

'i" has been a determination and the money paid. But is there
,~
~J :: any objection to deferring action on this until the next

24 meeting and let us get this in writing, the recommendations as

25 to the wording itself? It's extremely complex and if anybody

LL

~

"------~--~-----~

PAGE 72
I
wants to make any proposal, we can exchange proposals before

2 we meet.

3

SPEAKER MURPHY: I've got no objection to that, but

4 I'd sort of like to do what the Chief Justice has done, and

5 go through what Albert has done. The Chief Justice has

6 written probably as many opinions on eminent domain as anybody

7 but I'll bet I've tried as many condemnation cases as anybody

8 in this room. I'll bet on that. And this is a great

9 I rendition of this thing. This is great.

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: As far as attorneys' fees and all,

Czl

11

fiX

I

know it is.

0
0.-

i

w
12 u'"

SPEAKER MURPHY: Governor, you're going to be amazed.\I

~~r~ ~ ;: z w You're going to be amazed, I've got circled here where it U on

I

14

>-
f-

says

"The

General

Assembly

shall

provide

by

law......

That ough~

'x<

I

15 ~ to be changed to "may provide by law".

."

'":>
16 czo w

The first sentence, "Private property shall not be

0

Z

~

17 ''"" taken or damaged for public purposes without just and

18 adequate compensation being paid in the manner and at the

19 time .. " That will leave the law just like it is now where

20 the Highway Department could do their prepayment, they could

21 take their land under the law as we've got it now or we could

22 go through the Special Master. That leaves it just like it is. i

23 The next sentence is not the law, this says you'll have to

24 provide. I think that ought to be changed to "may" and that

~5 would leave us where we are now. We could do that now by law.

PAGE 73

The next one is absolutely just really what the law is now,

2 but that "shall" ought to be changed to "may" too, Albert,

~ and that would leave us with the law we've got on the books

4 now, just like we've got it now.

5

The other one is new, ain't any question about that,

o but it's something we ought to address before the federal

7 courts make us address it really. And this is a great draft

of this law. I don't know who done it, but ever who did it,

q did a darn good job if you change those two "shall" to "may"

I 'J and leave it up to the General Assembly to' provide it. That's

'..'J I-
II ~ as good a draft of any constitutional provision I've seen yet

Q

c..

u,

12 ~ and I wish y'all would build another 1-20 through my district,

([b5;) ~sv~' rc,.n~,~-
\. \., ~/)//

~~
~,

I'd

like

to

have

twenty

more

cases.

That would suit me fine,

"

- -- .. ~ , -

14 t especially after we pass the attorneys' fee section.

'<"

I

(5 ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I know you're in the process

MR. BOLTON: I'm really not qualified to get into a
"o'
Z
<l
J7 i::i great discussion of it, but I think the Highway Department

obviously wants to be heard it and I think we ought to try to

J9 get their views in writing where it could be presented to the

20 Committee.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I move we pass it to the next

meeting.

23

I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Before we do it now, making some

I

suggestions there what sounds like minor changes may be nlajor I

:"

"c_~an:~~ __i~ ~~~~ing ._1_think

~like thatI

_to

s_ee

the

pr~p<>sal~

r - ------------------------------------------- --- - ------------- - - - PAGE 74

r
II in writing if you would.

If there's no objection, we'll just !

Ii
:2 II postpone this until the next meeting. We're going to have to

"
3 Ii coordinate this, Robin, as far as getting these views in on
I)
4 this.

5

MR. HARRIS: Well if you get them, don't hide them,

6 send them on.

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If you'll just give this to Mel or

8 to Robin Harris there, I know that -- we have your recommenda-

9 tions, the Speaker has made some comments, the Chief Justice

10 has got something in writing and Arthur, if you could from the
z" 11 ~ Attorney General's office, confer with those concerning state
o
"-
~
@r~;I 2 ~~ government, then give us your recommendations, we'd appreciate it.

i4 >-
I-

Is there any objection to postponing this section

'<

I

15 ~ of the Bill of Rights?

I

"IX

-:>

16 'z" w

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Here's what I'm talking about,

I

z0



17 ''"" when you talk about the declaration of taking which was passed i

J' 18 to let the Highway Department get the property by paying into

19 court and the other system is if you have a Special Master, yo

20 have it in that case, but also you have some sort of an

21 arbitor, you still have to pay the money into court. What I'm

saying is you can't take the property until you pay for it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. I understand that.

2-1

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right.

I

ll________

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You're right o_n th_a_t_.__I_s_t_h_e_r_e_-.-JI

PAGE 75
~I' n=~~~bjeCti:-~~~Oing~~i':~~:here we=OUld get it in Writin~

2 ahead of time?

IqI

3I

(No response.)

4

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

i I
I
I
Now any recommendations!1

that you have, rather than coming up at the next meeting and

us hearing it, if we could just give it to them and then we

will circulate that to each of the members of our Committee

so if we have any questions we can find out beforehand.

9i

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I'd like to have a fiscal note

10 of what the attorneys' fees will go to if we pay attorneys'

'z.;J.

It

.... o'"

fees.

~

,~

(C\~j))f~!C ~ !.r:o.~'2,!Vl,:>t
\

]2 :
;:;:

SPEAKER MURPHY: I liked the first decision, Judge,

>:

much better than I did the second.

\~-~~=-~~~~/ /

1

Jl ,>...

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

~

<

I

! ') .0

JUSTICE NICHOLS:

"'":;)

1() ~ ques tion.

We'll try and get this, all right This is a very, very serious

z

<

17 :;

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It is, I think ~~

JUSTICE NICHOLS: We have a situation over there on J9 the Court right now and we're getting into air rights now, 20 : you know, here in town. As it stands right now it's three 2l and three, Hall just left and went over to the federal court

and we don't know who's coming in and we don't know what his I

23 reaction will be but it'll be 4~3 whatever it is. And it's

I

i

a bad situation. Every time you have a change in personnel

i

I

25 on the Court you get a different law on eminent domain, on the i

.

--J

,'------------ --- - ------------------

PAGE 76

rr---~---_--~--__----
11 condemnation cases.
Ii

-- -------~-------- ---- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ,
i

--, II:i

MR. BOLTON: They're getting as bad as the Supreme

~i

3 :1 Court of the United States.

4

(Laughter. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. If there's no

IJ objection, this section is going to be -- the entire section III will be carried over until the next meeting of the Select

Committee in order that we might give it careful scrutiny.

l)

All right, Section IV is Recall.

to

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: There is one other section,

'.'J

II <~- that's Tidewater titles confirmed. We didn't change that.

o~i

0-

~

! -.. ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's under Section III?

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes, that's under Section

III.

J 5 ,~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If there's no objection then I'll

'" :'":>"
ib ~ just separate Paragraph III of Section III and leave it as is,

Q
'L
]' ~< Tidewater titles confirmed. Is there objection?

l~

(No response.)

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, that's adopted.

:~o

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: On that recall provision,

.,. 1 Governor, that's a recent expression of the people of the State

~2 of Georgia in the 1978 general election and we just felt --

~~3

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No change.

I':

':4

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: No change.

,~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption

LC- ..



~ - - - - . - - - _.-- --~-------------------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - '

PAGE 77

I lr~~~-'
2 1'1

MR. HILL:

l There was a recommendation that it ought

il

3 III to be transferred to Article II.

i

I

4 II,

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yeah, there was a recommen~

dation that it be transferred. We didn't feel that it belonged

in the Bill of Rights.

I

I
MR. HARRIS: It ought to be in the Election Article.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is that the recall?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection on the

10 recall?

J4 ,.~.

':)

r

15 ,!\ except for Section IlIon eminent domain?

:J

'"::J

10

'])
'z

affirmative

motion.

,~

],

'""''""

JUDGE CALHOUN: I so move.

I think we need an

'X
'",I
'I
19 !

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there a second? JUSTICE NICHOLS: Second.

~O

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion?

21

(No response.)

", ..,
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor, say

aye.
:-1

(Ayes. )

,~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

.-_. -.-._- _-----------1 rr-----------.. - ... ._.- ~--------~-~-

------.~--

PAGE 78

Ii

(No response.)

2 IIIi
II

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's unanimously adopted.

I

I

II
3 jl

JUDGE CALHOUN:

Mr.

Chairman,

I

think we

ought to

I
-- I

I

Ii

I

4 I the Committee ought to express its appreciation to

5 II Representative Thompson and his committee for the fine work

that they did, and I so move.

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second it.
q :1
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There's a motion made and 10 seconded. All those in favor, say aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted and Albert, we do

appreciate your efforts.

REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Thank you, Governor.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've already done Article II.

J8 II We're going to skip Article II for the time being. Isn't that

19

II
:i
II

your

Article?

20 I' I' ,I:

MR. BOLTON: I wish you would, you'd be doing me a

21 favor right now. Robin hadn't told me I was supposed to lead

22 the prayer today.

:: ,l :i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What we're going to do now is,

I

:: ,Article II is one of the Articles that was already adopted

I

0_and__we_ h~ve now Harold Clarke an~_~~~ge.smith on Articles ~

PAGE 79

one of you is in the biggest hurry?

It doesn't matter.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to flip a coin?

MR. CLARKE: I don't know that we've got a coin.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Governor?

6

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Yes?

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I'm serious about this. What

8 we do with Article V has a lot to do with how I feel about

9 Article III.

I

\0

I
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Are you suggesting we take it firs~

and not let them flip a coin, all right.

Come around here, Judge. You had both IV and V,

Judge?

JUDGE SMITH: That's correct.

15 .:>
'-'
':">

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Zell, you want to take up V first

1b

'z"
w Q

before

we

do

IV?

Z

l7 '"r~

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: It doesn't matter.

IS

SPEAKER MURPHY: lIve got to get out of here at

19 five o'clock, I've got a basketball game to go to.

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead with Article V.

21

JUDGE SMITH: All right, Article V relates to the

'._. " Executive Branch and divides itself into two general subjects,

.."...:.. \ one was the Office of Governor and Lieutenant Governor and

24 the other was the so-called Other Elected Constitutional

Officers.

T-~----~-~-~~---

PAGE 80 - - - - - ~--_.~ ~~~~~-~-- ._---~-~----------~~-

I

In regard to the Governor's Office, primarily it

i

2 II was a matter of cleaning up the language and cutting out a

II

3 I;!i lot of the specifics that we didn't think were necessary.

I'
:~

11

4

',I
Ii

We couldn't

figure out what an emolument from a

foreign

state

I,

5 meant, so we just left it out, things like that.

li i;

As I recall, the only substantive power that was

,

I

7 'Ii transferred was the power to suspend the death sentence

I
S ii pending the meeting of the Board of Pardons and Paroles and

9 that was transferred to the Board rather than in the Governor

10 himself.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The present Constitution provides

that the Governor can suspend it for up to ninety days for

the purpose of review.

JUDGE SMITH: Well it doesn't really say in days as

15~,
l'1

I

reco11ect.

We felt that that power was better exercised by

rX

~,

lu .~.. the Board C

Z

17 ~"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Take it away from the Governor and

give it to Pardons and Paroles, I concur. Go ahead.

19

JUDGE SMITH: Okay. In regard to the Lieutenant

20 Governor, there was a lot of discussion about the fact that he

21 has one foot in the Executive Branch and one foot in the

I 22 Legislative Branch. It is the recommendation of the Committee

23

ii
ii

that

he

not

be

in

the

Legislative

Branch,

but

be

designated

I

24 as a purely Executive Officer. For that reason, it is

I Ii

j

25 ~~ec~mm~nd~~_~ha t he not be the Presiding Officer of the Senate,

PAGE 81
-~--------------I
that the Senate, through the other Article, elect its own

2 President of the Senate.

3

The duties of the Lieutenant Governor would be

restricted to Executive duties as provided by law or as

5 designated by the Governor. And that was the essential change

6 in that Office. I might say that part of the thinking here

7 ! was that there might be characteristics in a Lieutenant

i
I~ Governor that the people would like for that office, but he I !

might not necessarily be a good presiding officer in the

!

IO legislature, and that people felt it was Eportant to preserve \

o z

II

Ii ~ the office in order to have someone standing by in the Executiv~

~

\

12 ~ Branch ready to take over the job of Governor in the event of I

('\ctr-Y,-~J/\I)'r-~'!:'!!!-

\ \,

.... I

~.~~

death

or

disability.

'--::'~:-=//

14

In regard to disability, that's contained in these

!;

<r

15 -0 sections. There was some confusion about temporary disability """;;>

1(, 3OJ and that was all reworked. There is a system provided here

Cl
z

17 ~ whereby a petition of certain Constitutional Officers and the

Speaker and President of the Senate, the petition of disability

19 may be filed with the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court judges i

20 whether the disability is temporary, they say when it's over I

21

i
with, and it provides for the Lieutenant Governor serving under!

n these circumstances be it permanent or temporary. The details II

are in there. I don't know whether you want to go over them I

one by one or not. GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

I
we~ I'm not suggesting, Judge, that

!'1\(;Y 82

read every word that you've done, we have a copy and we can

go down it.

JUDGE SMITH: I hope not.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have some concern and I think

the Lieutenant Governor and the Speaker both had something

they might want to say on this, but I have a little concern

with this. Presently you have the Lieutenant Governor that

does have the duty of presiding over the Senate and he can

'.1 have such other things as the Governor may prescribe. Now

what you're saying is that the Lieutenant Governor would be

i i taken out of the Senate, he would not be a presiding officer

:\ (".~..(.'v~fi.<.)~t')t'!!"i !
""..-....~./- // /

there.

He would have no duties that he now has there. JUDGE SMITH: That t S correct. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Now under the present law, the

,'.c' :~ Lieutenant Governor is the one that first would succeed the

;;:.
:)

I6

,f:~ ".

Governor

if

he

was

killed

or

disabled

and

so

forth.

All right,

C,

1.

(

I "J

,~
now ,~.,

he

would

then

serve

until

the

next

general

election,

when

, the people are going 10 be voting anyway. He would serve that

.J long. Under the proposal as I see it here, the Lieutenant
'{I
.'} Governor, if say the Governor -- if I was to die today, the

Lieutenant Governor would serve, under this provision, for

another three -- over three years.

,,

....1

JUDGE SMITH: That's correct, he would finish the

term.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Even though they were having anothe~

general election.

PAGE 83
---- --- --------- -----------------------------,
I

2

JUDGE SMITH: And be eligible for one more full

term.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That was one concern that I had.

The other one was this, that under the existing law now, the

other Constitution, if the Lieutenant Governor and I were to

both be killed today and the Speaker would take over, it would

be sixty days that he would serve and you're proposing that

he serve ninety days.

':J

JUDGE SMITH: That was simply to give them time

~j to set up an election. Everybody felt that sixty days was

1 j not enough.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But if the Lieutenant Governor

were to take it, he would serve for the full term, not just

1' until the next general election.

JUDGE SMITH: That's correct. The theory is that

he's elected for the purpose of succeeding the Governor,

whereas the Speaker is not.

1 .1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The concern I have is not really

.'.\1 that election part so much as that the legislature could take

such powers as it wants and give to the Lieutenant Governor

who has not run as a team with the Governor and if he was

running for Governor, that could present some real problems

because it would be taking away -- anything you gave him down

in the Executive Branch, if you send the Lieutenant Governor

84

down there and it says the legislature can tell him what to do

in the Executive Branch, prescribe his duties --

JUDGE SMITH: Well they would be executive duties,

not legislative.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's what I'm talking about,

that's the Governor, but the legislature would be the one that

would be prescribing those duties that he'd be doing down on

o the second floor. You've run him off from the Legislative

Branch and put him in the Executive Branch and told the

legislature to tell him what his duties are. If he's taking

I I -- duties out of the Executive Branch --

JUDGE SMITH: Well, but they were supposed to be

limited just to executive duties.

,;. >-
~.

MR. TIDWELL: I think the point the Judge is making

r.-

<:

1:

15 ."1 is that they're not Chief Executive duties, isn't that right,

! i'~ ~ Judge, that they're not the Governor's duties but they would

('

i

<.

1 -.

'I' :,:)

be

executive

duties.

20 that.
-"1
Ll
i!

JUDGE SMITH: That's right.
I
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But the legislature would prescribe. I
JUDGE SMITH: For example, if the legislature were

to say that the Lieutenant Governor could represent the

Governor on his designation on any of your function, that's

the theory behind it, and he would be empowered so to do it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Who wants to lead off?
- _.

i ...__ ._ _1

PAGE 85

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I would prefer to leave it like it is. I think it's a system that has worked very well
3 II although I have no great problem with the Senate electing its
i own presiding officer. But if you're going to do that, I " think we have got to spell out some significant duties for the

" Lieutenant Governor. I also think we've got to look from a practical standpoint at what we're doing politically and th~t
~ is that we are almost going to force the Governor and the :) Lieutenant Governor to run as a team.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: If you have the Lieutenant

:: Governor in the Executive Branch and you don't run as a team,

-

" you're going to have chaos.

I:

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The chaos part was what I was

I) ,~, talking about more than the team.

(Laughter. )

7 IY

,

il

JUDGE SMITH: The Committee did consider whether

they ought to run as a team and rejected that, but they felt

! } that the public ought to be able to select, in essence, a

standby successor to the Governor by popular election and " independent of the Governor.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Is it my time? All I've got to say " \ is the State of Georgia cannot afford a Lieutenant Governor who
is nothing but a ribbon cutter and that's what y'all are making him. I agree with the Lieutenant Governor, he ought to

PACE 86
stay presiding officer of the Senate and you ought to give him a little more power in the Senate. Now that's what we ought to do to make him a functional officer and that's the only thing that I'm ever going to vote on.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: If I was you, I don't blame you. (Laughter. )
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think the Lieutenant Governor and I feel about the same on this. For many, many years I have been trying to get the Senate on the same level with the House -- I'm not committing whether that's further up or further down, but as long as you have got a Lieutenant Governor that is like the Speaker, subject to the majority of that body's wishes, you're never going to have a Senate that can take its place in the legislative function in the way it '" should because the Lieutenant Governor -- and goodness knows, Governor Miller has done more for the Senate than anybody that I know, certainly all of his predecessors put together, but when you've got a Lieutenant Governor that's primarily ,} concerned with running for another office and things other than the Senate, he's not responsible to them whatsoever, he's elected by a different body. When the House across the hall elects its own leadership from its peers, it's a different ") ballgame. The two teams don't belong in the same league as far as I'm concerned and I think it's awfully important that the Senate elect its leadership for the reasons so stated, to

PAGE 87
put it on an equal basis with the House. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I can't argue with that
statement except that if you're going to do that, and this is the point I'm making, if you're going to do that you have got to make the Lieutenant Governor -- you've got to kind of spell out some of the duties he's going to do. You can't just leave it hanging there that he's going to be at the whim of the Governor. I do say again, as a practical matter what that you do is have them running together because if they don't then -- it just won't work.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Mr. Chairman -GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Yes? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Let me give you an example, and I believe this firmly. I believe that say Governor Miller -I don't think anything is going to be done during his term, but say he was elected to the Senate of the United States, we would then have a Lieutenant Governor by rule of the Senate that wouldn't be doing a thing in this world but drawing his salary, whether we liked it or not because we could, by rules, take all of his powers away from him. The only power he's got is to preside over the Senate. Well that power exists with the Vice President of the United States over the Federal Senate but you don't see him around that much. SPEAKER MURPHY: That ain't what you'd have. You would not be Lieutenant Governor, you'd be the President of the

Senate. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's right. SPEAKER MURPHY: You would not be Lieutenant
Governor. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I understand that. SPEAKER MURPHY: You'd be President of the Senate,
so you wouldn't be the Lieutenant Governor. You're just as wrong about that as you can be.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The Lieutenant Governor would " still be an office. We'd still get a new Lieutenant Governor
two years from now. The President Pro Tern takes over as President of the Senate, that's true, but only for a short time, spelled out.
I'm saying the same way that the House has got , leadership, when Lester Maddox didn't get elected in November ,. and had to be elected by the legislature in January. Well he I ; couldn't get all his horses together. The Governor had run
that House, as you well know, for years and years and years, but y'all were smart enough to see that opening when you had that November-December to call a meeting and get your team '1 together and since that day the Governor hasn't had much to say about running that House.
SPEAKER MURPHY: That's a matter of opinion. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well he tries awful hard sometimes.

PAGE S9 REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: He works at it. SPEAKER MURPHY: I think he has a lots of say, we have a great deal of respect for this Governor and we listen to him and we try to help him. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think we have a serious question here and you've got several options that you're talking about. Nobody else is expressing themselves. I don't see this hybrid, I think if you're going to have a Lieutenant Governor, he ought to preside and do something SPEAKER MURPHY: I do too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: A full time position if you're going to pay him that way, or if you're not going to have him, trying to send him down to the second floor just for the purpose of hanging around until the Governor is killed or disappears
(Laughter. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Then I think you ought to abolish the office, but -LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Wait a minute. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If you're going to require them to run as a team, if you want to take that approach, I don't think their running as a team works though in many states because then your Lieutenant Governor is trying to run for Governor while he's there and the Governor is trying to promotenm because they did run as a team, but the hybrid is what gets me.

I think that's bad.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Governor, as you well know,

~ the whole trend throughout the united States is to make the

Lieutenant Governor a more responsible office rather than

making it weak or abolishing it. In fact, we've never abolishe~

-- let's just get this straight right now since it was brought

up. The Office of Lieutenant Governor has never been abolished

in the history of the United States except one time. Maryland

did it and then within a few years they reconstituted the

office.

In last month's U. S. News and World Report, I'm

. not going to bore you about it but let me just read you the

first two paragraphs:

"In state after state, new importance is being

attached to a job that was once considered as use-

ful as a fifth wheel, the Office of Lieutenant

Governor. With few exceptions, the men and

women who hold the number two positions in

1

America's state governments are shedding their

roles as mere ribbon cutters and stand-ins for

their Governors. Many of them enjoy significant

powers denied their predecessors over a generation

ago. "

I'm not arguing ~- I'm not against the Senate electin~

its own presiding office. The point I'm trying to make is if we

PAGE 91
go that route, and that's why I wanted to take up this Article first, if we go that route, for goodness sake, let's give the Lieutenant Governor something significant to do and let's let the people of Georgia know what it is. Just to hang it out there being at the whim of the Governor I think is bad and it also makes them run together. That's the point I'm trying to make.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What duties are -- are you going to give the duties by statute? The legislature will decide /1 what the duties are?
LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I would prefer to see some of them written into the Constitution, but if we want to remain flexible and not do that, and I can understand the argument not to do it, I think we have got to come up with a statute, we've got to come up with a law before we put this before the people for ratification and certainly we've got to have it 'l'.l written into law before we ask somebody to run for the Office of Lieutenant Governor. Who in the world would run for Lieutenant Governor, run allover this state campaigning and raising money and not even know what his duties are going to be before he takes office.
SPEAKER MURPHY: Governor, you've put your finger on the flaw in this whole Article right here, the whole Article. Who in the world would run for the Office of Lieutenant Governor if he wasn't going to do nothing but just sit around

P.V,E 92

for eight years and draw his salary and not do a dadblamed

thing. You'd get the awfullest kind of fellow sitting down

there -- and you know I'm speaking, you'd get the awfullest

" kind of fellow sitting down there and he'd be the next man to

be the Chief Executive. You wouldn't get a responsible person

" that was willing to do that, you'd get somebody looking for a

7 gravy train and it just won't work, it just won't work. You've

S got to give him something to do and the only thing you can do

(} for him is be President of the Senate. That's the only thing

you can give him to do.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Let him be Speaker of the House.

12

SPEAKER MURPHY:

,!?~~\\. '

. ,(';,,;;J) Jr-"!!!:!!.'~ ~: the House, we'll do it.

If you can get it passed through

/// /'
(Laughter. )

SPEAKER MURPHY: We've had this argument before and

;:, i' I tried to help y'all abolis.h the job, you know, and we couldn't c' l:.
l~' :;; even get them to do it then and lain' t going to help you no

j)' more, I'll tell you that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Somebody that's not a Governor, ::0 Lieutenant Governor or Speaker, speak up.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I make this observation, the

Speaker and I started out tHS morning about 10:30 agreeing on

using marijuana for medical purposes, we were in agreement

there and it looks to me like we're getting closer and closer

as the day goes along.

PAGE 93

SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me make a motion and see if me

and him's still together. I move that we rewrite this

Article putting the Lieutenant Governor back where he is as

President of the Senate.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Second.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

Is there any discussion?

SENATOR OVERBY: Yes.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well, yes.

1U

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Overby Senator Overby.

SENATOR OVERBY: I feel this way about it, of course

i(
i ~~~' :'C.:.:

1 1 m not I've had the pleasure of serving under a number of Lieutenant Governors and have enjoyed serving under our present

Lieutenant Governor. I just think that frankly that I feel -I now I agree with the fact that he should have some designated

2 duties, but I feel the Senate should elect its presiding
,
, officer just the same as the House does. And I agree there's

problems on it and maybe we need to rewrite and spell out some

provisions. But I think that the Senate should elect its

own presiding officer. Certainly I feel that the duties

should be specifically spelled out, as to what the Lieutenant

Governor does, other than being ribbon cutter or sitting in,

but I feel we should go that route or else we ought to think

about abolishing the office.

MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to point out that

1':\1 ;L 94 Michael Henry on our staff prepared a memo which outlines

about eight different specific duties that are available, if

3 you would want to be more specific about exactly what his

4 duties are, how other states have addressed the issue.

SENATOR OVERBY: I think we should have that informa-

6 tion where we can approach it.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think regardless of what this

group does, you're going to have a Lieutenant Governor that

'i won't have anything to do and it's going to be done by changing

J'.) the rules in the Senate if we don't give him something, J i .. regardless of what this group does, because they can, by rule,

make him impotent. There's certainly no desire to do that

in the present term

(Laughter. )

I,,D.

MR. BOLTON: Gracious.

::'1

Ii,

SENATOR OVERBY: Let's don't do that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm a farm boy myself, I wouldn't

want to do that.

19

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You've also got him

succeeding the Governor for the unexpired term which is anywher

from one day to four years. That needs to be changed. Might

as well change it all at the same time

SPEAKER MURPHY: If we adopt mine we're in good

shape, Jack.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have a motion and a second. I

don't quite understand the motion, but let's discuss it. The

!j motion is to leave it like it is. Go ahead.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead, Representative Snow.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I have a substitute motion,

and that would be regardless of the fact that it has been

suggested that the office is important throughout the nation,

I would move that it be abolished and that the right of

succession go to other constitutional officers that are

-

,! available and that we already elect.
\)

7

1!

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The right of sucession you're

~
.,

! "J , ta~ng about now, like it would go to the Speaker and you'd

"\

J

.' have a general election wi thin sixty days, now ninety days is

what theyre proposing.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, God, no. You'd have chaos,

just total chaos.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Why would it be more chaotic

than it is already?

SPEAKER MURPHY: You're wide open but I ain't going "j to say it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The substitute motion is that the

office be abolished.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: The Office of Lieutenant

Governor be abolished.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Then you'd have two questions if

96

you did that though, Representative Snow, you'd have to

address first. Presently you would have a Lieutenant Governor,

j if it was abolished, who would have a right of succession, who

would be the first and when would the election be called.

:;

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: The election should be called

h at the next general election. The successor would be the

Speaker or --

SPEAKER MURPHY: No, no, no.

MR. HARRIS: Prior to the Constitution of '45, the

president of the Senate acted as Governor for a period of
,,
; i sixty days, during which time a special election was called l.' to fill the unexpired term of the Governor and then the second

person behind the President of the Senate was the Speaker.

SPEAKER MURPHY: What you're doing is totally
",

~

j5

"-.' I":'

interrupting

state

government

for

about

six months.

That's

"

,1 )

<-
1..1

about what

you're doing.

(,

?~
,

'.'.:1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

That sixty days is what it was

IX then, they propose ninety days, in three months or ninety

days, the people elect another Governor.

20

MR. HARRIS: And the change from sixty to ninety

was made simply from the standpoint of time in getting an

election called, ballots printed and distributed and all

this sort of thing. There's nothing magic about the ninety

other than just a

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Do you have a list -- you don't

PAl~E 97

have copies of those duties that you researched?

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: They sent them to us.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's see where we are and we'll

continue with the discussion then. We've got a motion, a

substitute motion and no second to the substitute motion.

I was trying to clarify your motion, Wayne.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Okay, I think it needs

clarification. The motion was to abolish the office of

Lieutenant Governor. It wasn't thought through well enough

to see what would be the successor there, but --

1l -

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well we can come back to that,

but when are you making it effective? Then we can come back.

'.

You're not making it effective during this term I hope.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Oh, certainly not.

(Laughter. )

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Taking into consideration

, what Holloway said rather than have it abolished, I think I'd

rather abolish it.

(Laughter. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay. Is there a second to the

motion?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second to Wayne's

motion?

(No response.)

PACE 98

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, your motion is out of

order and we'll go back to the motion that it be left as it is.,

3

JUDGE CALHOUN: Is that still open for discussion?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's open for discussion.

JUDGE CALHOUN: I think that the Lieutenant Governor

now is sort of a hybrid office, partially Executive and

partially Legislative. I guess it's authorized by the Constitu-

h tion, otherwise it would violate the Constitution itself

'I having a member of the Executive exercise some of the powers of

j( the Legislative. So I agree with Senator Holloway that the
.',
c. Lieutenant Governor ought to have some specified duty. One
....
i.
u
1.: thing that is mentioned of course is the head of the Board of

Industry and Trade. I think he is an Executive officer, he

ought to be an Executive officer, ought not to be a Legislative

i ~ " officer. '.:... oJ' .>
1(, :..1

So I would oppose the Speaker's motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, any other discussion?

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Let me make one more comment

IX and I'll make it very brief. I would hope that regardless of

,') whether this passes or is defeated that every member of this

20 Select Committee will give some close study to the Office of

2] Lieutenant Governor and its duties, not just here in this

state but over the whole United States. There is probably

nothing that is more misunderstood than the office of a

Lieutenant Governor. There is probably, nothing that has been .) criticized more than the office of Lieutenant Governor in recent

_ -

PAGE _-

99
.. _._._..

,_..

years and yet throughout this nation you find Lieutenant

,

:
Ii

Governors

like

in

Indiana heading up

the

same

thing

as

the

Department of Industry and Trade, you find in Massachusetts

and in other states them being the person ill charge of the

federal funds that come into the state. There are some

significant duties that a Lieutenant Governor can be given.

'I , If you're going to put him in the Executive Branch, let's

spell out these duties here in the Constitution or certainly by

law before we ask the people to ratify this Article. That's

the whole point that I'm making.

J 1 _.
,..IY~

SENATOR OVERBY: I agree entirely with the Lieutenant

l' I Governor, but I go right back to the same premise that the
,' ..: t

'j

;

, .' ,I! k'~1 ,. ~: Senate needs to elect its own presiding officer.

-t ._
i--

SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman?

."

"r

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker.

,. c",

SPEAKER MURPHY: It must be obvious to this group

here after the discussion that we have had on the one paragraph,

of this Article today, there is no way this Article can be got

ready and submitted to the next session of the General Assembly

with any hope of passage. That must be obvious to anybody.

I would move that the discussion of this Article be

postponed until after the next session of the General Assembly.

All we're going to do is get it in such a mess, we ain't never

going to pass nothing. That's what's going to happen to us.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I've got a substitute motion that I

100

think we're going to have to vote on.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir, what was the substitute?

i It didn't get a second.

-I

MR. HARRIS: It was the Speaker's motion. The

) substitute didn't get a second. It's the Speaker's motion.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Your motion -- the sUbstitute died

for lack of a second.

'l

MR. HARRIS: The Speaker's original motion is the

'-I one on the floor.

1'.1

SPEAKER MURPHY: I'll withdraw it. I'll take care

of that. Now I move that we defer further discussion of this
':.
1
~: Article until after the next session of the General Assembly.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is that all of Article V?

SPEAKER MURPHY: V
."
-~
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What is that?

MR. HARRIS: Executive Branch.

JUDGE SMITH: Well you have the Other Elected

, Constitutional Officers in there too.

Ii

~}

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I would agree with you, Mr.

~o Speaker, except also then you're going to affect Article III

) l because in Article III you've got that situation about the

Lieutenant Governor again.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you this, as far as

J. this one

SPEAKER MURPHY: Sir?

PAGE 101
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You're just saying it's because of the Lieutenant Governor, just that one thing, you want to hold up the whole Constitution as far as IV and V is concerned?
SPEAKER MURPHY: That one thing, it must be pretty obvious, you know, this pretty well indicates that there ain't no way we're going to get Article V ready where it can pass the General Assembly for submission to the people in the next legislative session.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Because of the Lieutenant Governor?
SPEAKER MURPHY: You agree with that, don't you? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I can see some real difficulties unless you have some real spelled out duties for the : -1- Lieutenant Governor, and that sort of thing. SENATOR OVERBY: If the duties were spelled out, Mr. Speaker, you wouldn't oppose it then, would you? SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir. I've made my position abundantly clear I think, Senator. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: We had a motion and then we had a substitute motion that the Senate elect its own leadership. Does that not get voted on first? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. I think Wayne's motion was one that was out of order because it was a substitute motion -- the main motion was the Speaker's motion and the Lieutenant Governor's motion that it be left as is.

PACE 102

The substitute motion was your motion --

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Not mine.

MR. HARRIS: The only substitute motion was to

abolish the office.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I made it and I did not get

a second.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The substitute motion that I

thought had been made was that the Senate elect its own

SPEAKER MURPHY: That ain't in this Article, that's iii in the Legislative Article.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well, can I make such a

substitute motion?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you this before you

make -- yes, I think a substitute motion is in order, but just

for a point of clarification, right now what you're talking

about is the Lieutenant Governor is in the Executive -- that

would be in III, is what you're talking about, part of the

Legislative Branch, trying to put him in the Fifth Article,

;-;
which is in the Executive Branch

.'(J

Now your motion is in order, but what I was talking

about, Mr. Speaker, is I don't see why you would go down

with all of Article V unless you were going to move him to

the Executive Branch and you couldn't figure out what you

were going to do with him.

But now going back to yours, a substitute motion is

PAGE 103 in order.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I make such a motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And yours is that -SENATOR HOLLOWAY: And of course that would anticipate setting forth specific duties for a continuing Lieutenant Governor. SPEAKER MURPHY: What motion is he making? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, so your motion is that the Lieutenant Governor -SENATOR OVERBY: I think it'd be an original motion -i now, Governor, since the Speaker has withdrawn his motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Have you withdrawn yours? SPEAKER MURPHY: I withdrew mine. I don't know, the Lieutenant Governor may not have withdrawn his second, I don't know. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm going to rule and it'll be a ruling of the Chair, but you made a motion, that motion is on the floor, a substitute was offered by Wayne Snow, he got no second, so your motion was left. You have asked to withdraw your motion. Do you want to withdraw it now? SPEAKER MURPHY: No, let's vote on it and get it over with one way or the other. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, now you've got a substitute -MR. HARRIS: A vote on his motion is going to determine

the issue.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Wait a minute. Counsel is saying -1-

Charlie is saying that what you're saying should be addressed

in Article III. So your motion would be in order and when we

get to Article III, your motion would be in order there.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But it's also addressed in this

Article too. I'll move then that the Lieutenant Governor be

assigned specific duties and spelled out.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Well that's a substitute motion.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Your motion'is that you amend what's

provided for in here by providing that he'll have additional

. \"fr..j

bJ) ~ "

_.If, \ \

!

.":''''0

duties as prescribed by law SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Other than presiding over the

Senate.

! :::,

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: That's what this says.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's what this says.

SENATOR OVERBY: That's what you've got.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: So if you have the same as the

!) Article Committee has, is what your motion is. All right, is

there any objection to ordering the previous question which ".o:..! the Speaker had and the Lieutenant Governor's motion, that's

the original motion that the Lieutenant Governor's Office be

left as is as far as presiding officer is concerned?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, none then, that's open

PAGE 105

I ' for discussion. Is there any further discussion on that motion? The sense of the motion is that the Lieutenant

Governor's Office -- that the Lieutenant Governor will remain

the presiding officer of the --

SPEAKER MURPHY: His duties remain the same.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right, his duties remain the same.

All right, all those in favor --

'.:

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: And such additional duties

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You will do that in Article III

though.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You'll do that in the other

',; Article, you can give him additional duties or keep it like

~ it is, that'd be the place to address it.
,.,.\
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's right.

All right, all those

':. in favor

1
c~;

SENATOR HOLLOWAY:

'~
'j ,:. has to be addressed here.

His presiding over the Senate

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You could still give him

other duties.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But his presiding over the Senate has to be addressed here.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, all those in favor of the motion, raise your hands.
(Votes were cast.)

f'AGL 106

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five. All opposed. (Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five to four, it's adopted. All right. Now you'll address this when we get back to III I suppose.

All right, that's adopted. Judge, I've kind of got lost in parliamentary --
JUDGE SMITH: Me too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: -- procedure there. JUDGE SMITH: Where were we? I assume what has been done is that Paragraph III of Section I, which relates

to the Office of Lieutenant Governor is not adopted as drafted but whatever is there now will replace it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right.

JUDGE SMITH: There were some minor changes about

i.l.'

;.

16

l~:
'.1

residence

and

so

forth,

qualification

for

both

offices,

the

7

., succession was clarified, as I stated before, in the case of

varying degrees of disability. The questions that a couple

of you have raised, in terms of the Governor's Office, we provided for two terms and then there is a hiatus of a complete term and then he's eligible to run back after skipping

a term. In the case of a Lieutenant Governor, if he succeeds the Governor during a term, he serves the unexpired term and

only one more as Governor. There's a lot of confusion GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That carne up in Maryland.

107 t ',\ ~X'Cl'A'

,I
I'

JUDGE SMITH: There was a lot of confusion about

half terms and whether they count on the two-term limitation

and so forth.

In terms of the duties, they are essentially the

same except for the one that I mentioned. It was recommended

that all of the long language in that present Article relating

to canvassing the votes and all be placed over in the Elections

Article. Otherwise, the question of appointments and duties
are essentially the same. The language is hopefully cleaned

up. In terms of the other executive officers, there were
two officers that the committee recommended be deleted as elected constitutional officers. The first was that of the State School Superintendent and this, of course, related to the fact that you had a Board to set policy and an elected superintendent to set policy. It also related to the fact that more and more it's a professional type job and our committee

opted for the view that the Board should set the policy and the State School Superintendent should be responsible to the Board. So he was eliminated as a constitutionally elected officer.
The other office eliminated from constitutional election was that of the Comptroller General. Again, it was felt that it was getting more and more to be a technical type of job having to do with rate making and other complicated

PAGE 108

matters and that over a long period of time the opportunity of

getting a qualified person in that job would be heightened by

appointment. The ancient, historical reason for his election,

signing warrants and all, has virtually been abolished and

therefore it wasn't felt there was any more compelling reason

to have him elected statewide.

So that leaves the Secretary of State, Attorney

General, Commissioner of Agriculture and Commissioner of

Labor as state officers. Of course, the District Attorneys lU are also elected and are considered to be constitutional

officers.

The rest of it spells out the different duties --

SPEAKER MURPHY: Before we leave that, don't you

think we need to talk about it.

,.":.,

1:

I;:' .",:

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Mr. Speaker.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I personally will never agree for

" the School Board to be appointed and the School Superintendent

to be appointed, have appointed people running the schools of

Georgia. I ain't never going to agree with that. I will be

"'1
bftterly opposed to that at any section

I'm also going to

be opposed to taking the Comptroller Gener~l out as an elected

officer, I'm going to be opposed to that.

JUDGE SMITH: Let me just say as to the first one, the

selection of the Board is over in the Education Article and

, they have not yet, as I understand, Mel, come to a determination

i ACE 109
I I of how it will be, whether it would be elected, whether it
I:
should be determined like the Highway Board or appointed by the Governor. They haven't reached that.
SPEAKER MURPHY: The problem there, Judge, is a very simple problem because I've been facing it for years and years in my home territory. The problem there is if you're going to elect statewise school board members, you're going to have to give them full time jobs or you'd never get anybody to run and spend the money to run, to campaign. Consequently, you're either going to have to have them elected by the General Assembly, which the people ain't going to give up the right statewide to elect the State Superintendent or elect that.. It's just a matter of practical politics, people are giving up an elected office for nothing. They ain't going to do it " and there ain't no way you'd ever get a school board, state " school board elected by the people, it just can't be done. There's no way you could get qualified people to do it. Therefore, I think that it's just something that's just not practical any way you look at it. Ain't no way in practice in theory it may be beautiful to have your board, to get the best qualified man there is to be a school superintendent, but until you can elect the board, there ain't no way you can do that in practical politics. It can't be done.
JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Speaker, may I ask you a question? Are there any states that now presently elect the members of

the state school board?

SPEAKER MURPHY: I have no idea, Judge. I would

doubt it though, sir.

JUDGE SMITH: Some of them do.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Senator Holloway?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I've got a question. I believe

the Speaker mentioned the possibility of the legislature

electing the Board --

SPEAKER MURPHY: Like they do the Highway Board

members, right.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That'll never happen.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I agree with that.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: We let the highway go, we're not
,i
going to let the Board of Education go. Of course the House

has got four votes to everyone the Senate has, there's

j 6 I. nothing right about that. ,~'. l c
SPEAKER MURPHY:

We think it's great, but we didn't

think y'all would like it.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The question I have, Judge, is

why was the Veterans -- is the Veterans Administration still

left in?

JUDGE SMITH: We haven't got to that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's in Article IV .

.,

t

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But we're going to get to it,

aren't we?

J'AGE 111

JUDGE SMITH: I hope so.

I
~

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You left it in, did you not?

JUDGE SMITH: Not I, the committee did.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: What was the thinking, rationale,

of leaving them in --

SPEAKER MURPHY: We're way off the track now.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think what brought this up for

discussion was he mentioned taking out Comptroller General

and the State School Superintendent and leaving in the

Commissioner of Labor, Agriculture, Secretary of State and
i"
Attorney General.

MR. HARRIS: As a necessary nuisance.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Governor, I think we have

l '," a serious question whether you could pass any of these

.~ Constitutional amendments if you take these away from the

people.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Ain't no question.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I move the Comptroller General be

put back in -- both of them, School Superintendent.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I second the motion.

(The reporter changed the tape.)

Harris.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We're back on the record now, Mr.

Just a minute. She's trying to transcribe this.

1':\',,!, 112

One at the time. Mr. Harris.

off.

MR. HARRIS: I was just talking while the record was

record.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: We were talking off the

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded

that the Superintendent of Schools and Comptroller General

remain as constitutional officers, that they be included, is

that correct?

10

All right, is there any further --

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: May I explain my motion?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I want to be consistent, take them

all out or leave them all in. I just don't see the thinking

<:
I:
;: ~; of hop-skipping and jumping around. I don't think there's a

, l~

-

;!

,i) ~. chance of getting them all out, so my motion was made to leave

c,

",
;:; it 1 ike it is.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any further discussion?

JUDGE DEEN: Could we vote on these one at the time? .'1 i For example, I would like to vote to let the State School

Superintendent be appointed since he is a technical man and

an educator if we could -- now the Speaker says it can't be

done and the Lieutenant Governor says maybe some of the other

states elect the members of the State School Board -- now I

had the occasion last year, I don't know whether any of you have

PAGE 113
gone before the State Board of Education, but I went before 2 the State Board of Education to urge them to improve the law;
that is on one or two points, one was that teaching values clarification in our universities and public school which is homicide games, you know, you've got twelve people and they say you've got room for eight, you students pick out the four you want to kill. They teach suicide: for example, one question that students are asked, to whom would you tell if you have considered committing suicide. Now I told the State Board of Education, I said, to infer that suicide is a constitutional right or to teach young people the fallout shelter game which is one of '79's horrible permissiveness games, is I think behind a lot of our permissivenessin society. Of course, the School Board, I felt like was very outstanding people but kind of non-responsive. I think if you really want to sell a new constitution, half of your money appropriated , by the state government goes to education, and if you really want -- if you could have one member elected from each congressional district, give this power back to the people. Particularly on these games that teach permissiveness and I think help flood our courts with a lot of crime. That's the reason I would like to vote on them separately. I'd like to vote for professionalizing the State School Superintendent on the condition that we have elected School Board members. On the other hand, I'd like to vote to put the Comptroller

; ".\,"'I,' 114

General back in as a state elected official.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, as a matter of practical

politics, let me give you my personal experience with the

School Boards and School Superintendents. When my illustrious

cousin, Judge Murphy, preceded me in the seat I now sit in,

he passed one -- our School Board is appointed by the Grand

Jury and our School Superintendent is elected by the people.

,n He passed a constitutional amendment to let the people elect

the Board of Education provided the Board of Education then

appointed the School Superintendent. It got beat four to one.

Ud
:i~.\;~J"~\''\);-~:"" ~, They ain't going to give up electing School Superintendent.

/I

/l

/"

They'll tell you, I don't mind voting to elect the Board but

, ,, ., I ain't going to give up my right to vote for a School

:.-'::

,(

,~ ."

Superintendent.

Cl

, ,.

Well, I thought I was smarter than him, you know,

~~ so I come along ten years later and I passed the same thing

to let them elect the School Board members and let them appoint

'J the School Superintendent. I got beat worse than he did, got

~l beat four and a half to one that time. They said we'll vote

to elect the School Board but we ain't going to give up our

right to elect the School Superintendent.

That's the way the people of Georgia are going to feel

about this, it's just that simple. That's just practical

I'ACE 115

politics.

MR. HARRIS: Well now seventy-nine counties voted

the other way, Mr. Speaker.

MR. BOLTON: We elect the Board and they elect the

Superintendent.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Well I tried every way I could to

get it passed.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Basically, it would be very

desirable. This fellow who runs for Governor has to run

largely on what he's going to do for education. The person
,";
1 who is a School Superintendent has a set number of votes and

he is not -- most of the people in the State are not even aware.

\t' .

that they're even voting for School Superintendent. But the

Governor is the one who has to have full responsibility for

it. He's the one that ought to be making the appointment.

SENATOR OVERBY: I'd like to move the division of

the question, that we vote separately on the Comptroller

General and the School Superintendent.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. The motion is then that

the question be divided. Is there any objection?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, I'll divide the question.

The first question is the motion to reinsert the Comptroller

General.

Is there any discussion?

'I' "'116

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Done. All right. The next

question is that the Superintendent be reinserted and be

'--i all right, what's the motion on the Superintendent? You

wanted to divide the question.

MR. HARRIS: Well his motion was that you divide it,

and that he be put back in as an elected official.

,,-\ :,vJj.'f\



(,\(<i.:-;.."~\)(!~'w,," C,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: As an elected official. All right,

the motion is that the School Superintendent be elected --

wait a minute, stays as it is now, that he be elected by the

people. All right, and there was a second for that. So that

the question now is on the State School Superintendent, that

he be elected by the people.

Any further discussion?

JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to vote against

this on the hope that we can elect the School Board. Now if

we can't elect the School Board, which we probably can't, I

would like to vote for this motion. But with no way of knowing

how --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well, you can always ask to corne

PAGE 117

back and reconsider this.

MR. BOLTON: May I ask a question?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Yes.

MR. BOLTON: The State School Board as a constitu-

tional board in your proposal has been taken out

MR. HILL: It's a constitutional board.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's a constitutional board.

JUDGE SMITH: It's under the Education Article.

MR. BOLTON: It is? Okay.

I;i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. All those in favor of

the motion that the State School Superintendent be left as is,

! " which is elected by the people, raise your hands.

(Votes were cast.)
"
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Six. All right, all opposed.

(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, adopted.

JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Chairman, if I might mention one

thing, a sub-recommendation of our committee was that the jq , Comptroller General be renamed Commissioner of Insurance, as

being more descriptive of his duties. The public doesn't

know what the Comptroller General means, and we felt

Commissioner of Insurance was the largest part of his work

and for public identity for the people that elect him, in the

process of some claim or knowing what office to go to, that

would be a better title.

!'ACE 118

SPEAKER MURPHY: He's got other duties than Insurance Commissioner, he's got small loans --
JUDGE SMITH: He's got Fire Marshall and all of those. We considered all of those and even thought of a long name like Commissioner of Insurance, Fire and all that. We just

felt that for the people -MR. BOLTON: Fire ants, did you say? JUDGE SMITH: Of course, that's not in here because
it was eliminated, but that's a side recommendation that his office be called Commissioner of Insurance, that it would just help the public whether they're voting for him or not.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But that won't be included now in

. Article V, right?

!

JUDGE SMITH: Well since he's back in --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Does anybody move to change the
~.,
'~. name of the Comptroller General and call him -- anything?

Commissioner of Insurance or any other?

(No response.)

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, there's no motion on

.. ) that. Judge?

JUDGE SMITH: I should point out that because of

the proposed elimination of those two officers, they were not

considered as petitioners on the question of disability and

in order to make it neat, I would say that you would go back

to having them petitioners and eliminate the Speaker of the

PAGE 119

House and -- well, it was President of the Senate, but that's been eliminated too.
What paragraph is that, Mel? MR. HILL: Paragraph II of Section IV. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph II of Section IV.

(,

JUDGE SMITH: In other words, to bring a petition

you had to have three of the constitutional officers and in

order to have enough since those two had been eliminated we

had substituted in the President of the Senate and the

Speaker of the House. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me interrupt, Judge. If you 'It
turn to page seven, line 29, you'll see what he's talking
, about, on down where it picks up on 26, "For the purpose of
this Paragraph, the officers who may petition the Supreme
1,
,~ Court for a determination of disability of an elected

constitutional executive officer shall include the following:

any elected constitutional executive officer, the President

of the Senate'and the Speaker of the House of Representatives."

I)

JUDGE SMITH: Now what you would do is just strike

that since you are reinserting back up in the top, the other

two officers.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well we'd put the Lieutenant

Governor, wouldn't we?

JUDGE SMITH: Yes, he's already named in Paragraph I,

so it would be the Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of

PAGE 120

State, Attorney General, Commissioner of Agriculture,

Commissioner of Labor and now State School Superintendent and

Comptroller General.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Same as before.

JUDGE SMITH: You don't need --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, is there a motion that we

do this?

SPEAKER MURPHY: I so move.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made. Is there a

Ii second?

i!
>.
(I
I.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

<. <L

All right, go ahead, Judge.

"' >
I

q

",::''1

l.

JUDGE SMITH:

can do with that one.

Well that's about all the devilment we

,.

J"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You're doing fine so far,

Judge.

JUDGE SMITH: I should point out that there are

some word changes, but I don't think they're of substance. We

have tried to get all of the specifics out of it and you will

find the phrase "as provided by law" throughout it, so that

we won't have to have the people come back every time we want

PAGE 121

to change the duties of one of these elected constitutional

officers. The General Assembly is given wide discretion in

prescribing the duties to be performed by the different

officers.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

JUDGE SMITH: Okay, you want to turn to Article IV?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well let's do this. Subject to

': the amendments that we have made, is there objection to

adopting Article V, as amended by the Select Committee?

i ')

JUDGE SMITH: I think it's worth mentioning, the

District Attorneys wanted to stay in the Judicial Article

~ and we put them clearly in the Executive Article. They are one

\:
i

, of the parties before the court, and as the committee looked

"

at it, they are Executive officers, they represent the State

against the citizenry and they ought to be in the Executive

l Department. So that is clearly defined in this Article .
1
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on that

point?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: About the DAIs staying in the
Executive Article?
,,
MR. HARRIS: Moving them from the Judicial to --
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: To the Executive.
JUSTICE NICHOLS: I would be opposed to that.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: They were opposed to it today. They did come by --

JUDGE SMITH: Let me give you the thinking. The

thinking was that the District Attorney was one of the parties

before the court and it oughtn't to be mixed up with the

court. The court ought to stand alone.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: A conflict of interest.

l'

JUDGE SMITH: Sir?

7

JUSTICE NICHOLS: A conflict of interest.

JUDGE SMITH: That's right.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: We have gone through all that

10 on the Judicial Article. The majority of our committee

I.;

r-
'Y

favored

keeping

the

District

Attorneys

in

the

Judicial

?

L! Article. I think it's going to be awfully hard to change that.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think the Attorney General

) : ought to be in the Judicial.

< 1:
j : ,~,

JUDGE SMITH: Well he's in both places.

'i
He's a hybria. I

10 ~ In this draft he's in both. We were concerned with the Co

",:)::
" immunities question.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We need to resolve this point.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I move that we remove the 2U District Attorneys from the Executive Article.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And put them back in the Judiciary?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Put them in the Judicial Articl~.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and the motion

is seconded. Any discussion on this?
, ---------- -,---,----,----"----

PAGE 123

SPEAKER MURPHY: You did something smart, what

happened to you?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Why don't you go to the

ballgame.

"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor, say aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's do this over. All in favor

'-

of putting them back in the Judiciary where they are now,

.) raise your hands.

](1
,;"J
"'"
,:,~
"i.'
~
. ! -::I:
"

(Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Opposed?
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's unanimous, they're back in

- the Judicial Article .,'.
1:
MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I should point out that the
'I
provisions on the veto power that are now in Article V have

been transferred to Article III and there is just a reference

-,''JI to the veto power of the Governor but all the specifics have

been switched to III. We can cover that when we get there.
\
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, that'll be deferred untii

we get to III if there's no objectioh. ,I JUDGE SMITH: I think otperwise, there are mainly

language changes and eliminating a lot of archaic --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to the adoption of

Article V as we have passed on it, subject to the amendments

PAGE 124

made by the Executive Committee -- Select Committee.

2

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Article V is approved.

JUDGE SMITH: I ought to explain that we started

out trying to make the changes that we felt ought to be done,

(J irrespective of the political considerations. We didn't

I quite succeed even within the committee, but we have utterly

3 failed here today.

j) !

(Laughter. )

10

MR. BOLTON: I was just remarking how federal judges

~?
7.
are experienced in this.

JUDGE SMITH: Well we had a good time inside.

Assuming the sarne posture for Article IV, which is

Constitutional Boards and Commissions, the subcommittee on

15 ~: that Article started with the presumption that nobody should
iT.
:J
] h ~'"; be in there and you ought to have to show cause why the Board ' 7. </
11 :ii ought to be constitutional instead of statutory.

1S

As I recall, we've got forty-six boards in the State

I'

and-for some reason eight of them were included in the I
Constitution and the rest of them are statutory, and we couldn't I

21 see much rhyme or reason.

22

Based on that, there were three that were initially

put back in the Constitution as having high, direct public

interest. Everybody is interested in all of the boards, of

course, but a high, direct pUblic interest. They were the

~

.

.

.

...

i

PAGE 125
q--
II
Public Service Commission, the S~ate Board of Pardons and

Paroles and the Personnel Board because of the merit system.

We felt there were three principles involved there that ought

to elevate them to constitutional status.

.

Later on, there were two other boards added, one of

them was the Transportation Board and one was the Veterans

; Service Board, but if you'll look at your draft of Article IV,

the first is the Public Service Commission, the significant

change there was that it was recommended by the committee that

..,...

"I '\ those members be appointed by the Governor subject to

'~'I
;:
confirmation by the Senate.

(t

"-

j

..,
..

..
u

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's take this a paragraph at the

..

7 time. All right, Public Service Commission, there's a drastic
C.,'

change there and that's up for discussion.

T

.:>

JUDGE SMITH: In all of these, we provided for the

u

OJ
3 current term to run out and then --

':1

I:

<.;

r~: ill

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I understand. I think we had

!; better discuss these one at the time. For instance, on

II the Public Service Commission, you've heard the statement

.. j Is there

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we continue to elect the

Public Service Commissioners in the manner they're being

elected now.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I'll second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and the motion

}' '(-r c'-\ .... '.

126

is seconded that the Public Service Commission be continued

as an elected commission. Is there discussion on this?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

aye.

(Ayes. )

"7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: So done. It's going to remain

1U the same.

~)

1.
Ii ,.
..0,o-

All right, next will be the State Board of Pardons

~

/t.~\",. ~. j1.'~

and Paroles.

,I;, us:~)i "

;;:

JUDGE SMITH:

I should point out for your benefit

".' ~

" /1/

'----

(4 i:::

on there, the current Constitutional Article is loaded down with

<i-

T

15-~.., different specifics limiting acts of treason and all of these

cr.
'OJ

16 ~
.w:.

specifics.

So all of those specifics were eliminated --

1.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Which one are you referring to,

Judge, under the Public

i9

JUDGE SMITH: Pardons and Paroles.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Oh, Pardons and Paroles, all right Go ahead.
JUDGE SMITH: So you'll see it divided here, (a) is

the composition of the Board and their terms are out of

kilter over there and there was an attempt made to get them in

_--- sync,

so

that

they will

have

a

common

__ expiration date. . . . . - - - - - - - - - _.....

PAGE 127 The only substance provided there is in paragraph (b) and then (c) of course is the delegation of power to the General Assembly. I think I ought to point out here that there's a basic change and this was discussed at length in the committee The way it is drafted here now, the legislature really has the power to override a rule or regulation of the Board of '\ Pardons and Paroles. The original theory, of course, was to transfer the power of the sovereign in the form of the Governot to an independent Board, and the way it has corne out of our committee the General Assembly has the power to override a ! , rule or regulation or policy of the Board. That's the way it carne out but I thought this group ought to understand that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well let me say, Judge, two or three things on this State Board of Pardons and Paroles. The way the Articles Committee wrote that, and you were trying to get it where everybody would corne up at the first of the year and they could corne up before the Senate for confirmation, I \ "; think the Board itself had submitted a proposed substitution 'il for what you have there because there's some question about some of them would be serving six, seven and eight years. It would depend on JUDGE SMITH: Seven or eight. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Seven or eight. JUDGE SMITH: We knew that somebody would run out in

128

January or February --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The other thing --

JUDGE SMITH:

and we tried to get them all at

the end of the year.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The other thing that you have in
there that they're concerned about is this, where you take
the clemency away from the Governor and you give it over to
the Pardons and Paroles. I mean, this was a heavy mandate
q
from the people, I think we all recognize this. We have
1(l
written in two changes now that limit the Pardons and Paroles
1.
Board; one is the armed robbery, you know, it's written in
for five years; one is where the death sentence is suspended,
the legislature has written in twenty-five years. Now what
their concern is, is, you know, that you have taken those out
but they can write down any limitation they want, but what
you have done is taken away from the Governor the clemency and
put it in the Pardons and Paroles Board to get it out of

something like happened in Tennessee I suppose and then now
to give it back to the legislature, that would be awful, I
:.!j
think.
REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: That is not the place for it,
we don't need that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't think you do either, but -.
., I
they have come up with one that I wanted Charlie to explain,

PAGE 129

JUDGE SMITH: They appeared and, incidentally, I

don't believe in a limitation if you're going to transfer the ;! power. This is personally, but I'm giving you the thought of

the committee and they felt that the legislature ought to have

a check on the policies of the Board of Pardons and Paroles.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Far too political for that,

react too much.

JUDGE SMITH: That was my concern, that in the heat

" of the times you might have

I:;

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The only way the legislature can

limit them now is to pass a constitutional amendment and that

has been bad itself to pick out one crime at the time, but

that's better than nothing.

MR. BOLTON: What 'We had in the I 30' s was bad. From

" that we went to a Pardons and Paroles Board. We've had

, :.)

"~l
.,
; ~,

problems with it but

it has worked pretty good

L

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I might point out, you have a

provision in the recommendations of the Article Committee

that will take from the Governor the right to suspend the

death penalty in order to give, you know, a hearing by the

Pardons and Paroles Board and put that take it away from

the Governor and just tell the Pardons and Paroles Board that

the presiding officer can suspend it long enough for them to

have a hearing. And I support this. I think the Pardons and

Paroles Board ought to be completely removed from the politica~

I'ACE 130

arena.

JUDGE SMITH: I do too.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Including removing that power from i

me.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Ain't all we got to do, Governor,

is strike the first sentence and say

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If you would, let Charlie -- let

Mr. Tidwell explain what they had here. I think it corrects

that where all of them still have the same term, doesn't it,

,I

but --

MR. TIDWELL: The Pardons and Paroles Board was j ..~ disturbed that some of the terms would not coincide with the

present structure. I think the reason, as I understand it,

Judge, that your committee changed it at the suggestion of

. l S Justice Hill, is that they all expire at the same time at

".,

16

".'.:..1

the end of the year so then the Senate would be in session to

confirm the Governor's new appointees.

JUDGE SMITH: That's correct.

MR. TIDWELL: And the proposal by the Pardons and

Paroles Board preserves that concept but it does not apply to '
"1 1
.:.J present members. It lets everybody serve out their term now,
\,
their successors will be appointed to serve until the last

day of that seventh year and I think, as I understand it and :1 have studied it, it accomplishes the same thing but does it

a little later.

Pr-\GE 131

I

;

JUDGE SMITH: We had no motive other than to get

them in sync so that they all had a common expiration date

instead of one of them in May, one in January and we didn't

+ want the thing off kilter, so that you'd have the proper -, rotation.

l,

MR. TIDWELL: So I think they thought that was a

worthy goal also, it's just a matter of when does it get to

that point and that is their proposal as embraced in sub-

section (a), just as your committee.

10
';"l
;i
o

JUDGE SMITH: get the proposal.

I got the cover letter but I didn't

SPEAKER MURPHY: They didn't want you to see it.

II \'"'''1

MR. TIDWELL: Then the real crux of it is in

subsection (b).

,

'I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That was one thing, and this was

the other question I was talking about. This would add and

give it to the legislature. Presently the way it now reads, "The board shall be vested with the powers of executive

clemency, including the powers to grant reprieves, pardons,"

,",I and so forth. That's in the Constitution. Welve had local

constitutional amendments on a crime-by-crime basis but at

least the people voted on it in addition to two-thirds of the

legislature. But the way this one is started off with the
.!
preface, which they're concerned about and which 1 1m concerned

about and I think all of us are concerned to some extent, is

i'ALl': 132

you start off with the "Except as may be provided by law",

which means --

SPEAKER MURPHY: I tried to move to strike that ten

minutes ago and you wouldn't let me.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, move.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move that we strike it, the first.

line.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: A motion is made and seconded.

Is there any discussion?

1. '.

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

aye.

(Ayes. )

r .-::

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Doesn't that read -- how does that

read now?

MR. TIDWELL: Well that's what -- the Board's

proposal and there's another one in subsection (c), I think

all of the members of the committee have received the Board's

proposal and it essentially does what the Speaker said but

it also addresses -- and answered the question you had in

subsection (c) where you have to deal with it there. It says

that the duties of the board will be provided by law. Well
-'

l' AGE 133 you have to take that out also.
JUDGE SMITH: It would now be inconsistent since SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we strike "and powers and 'f duties" then. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It would read as follows -SPEAKER MURPHY: "The qualifications, compensation, removal from office of the members of the board shall be as provided by law." GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you if this is the sense of your motion, what they suggest as (c). "The qualifications and compensation of members of the board shall be as provided by law." SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, I think "removal" ought to be in there too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The what? MR. TIDWELL: In the Board's proposal, they have another sentence -GOVERNOR BUSBEE: "A member of the Board may be removed from office for cause only by unanimous action of the Governor, Lieutenant Governor and Attorney General or by judgment in the Senate in a trial of impeachment." SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, I like that to be fixed by law. I think that ought to be fixed by law. MR. TIDWELL: The sentence that they just read is the present law.

I'A(,E 134

SPEAKER MURPHY: I like it the way the commission's got it the best. I move that we adopt (c), strike "and powers and duties" in (c) and adopt (c) as it remains.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me make sure I understand your motion. How does he change it?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I second that motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Oh, I see.

MR. BOLTON: I have no -- they're appointed, they

<) don't run for office. I always question the right to impeach

10 somebody who is appointed.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. So what his motion is,

, is "The qualifications, compensation, removal from office of

\\

1'.

/ )r'~"-''"''

//

jl
J-" >.

the members of the board shall be as provided by law." SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right.

"i ,:} 0:
.:n J) 2
:':J

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Second? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Second.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion?

(No response.)

.'0 aye.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say (Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Opposed?

(No response.)

.i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's unanimously adopted.

SPEAKER MURPHY: What did we do about their terms

up there?

PAGE 135
- -~----------- ----------------------,
Did we agree with the commission or the Pardons and

Paroles Board?

JUDGE SMITH: The Pardons and Paroles Board.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We were going to go with their

recommendation as the proposal and with the consent of the

Articles Chairman.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I just wanted to know what y'all

done while I was gone.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to that

being incorporated?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not --

SPEAKER MURPHY: That young man's got --

MR. HENRY: I didn't see the proposal, but I was

wondering if you wanted to specify the limitations on their

powers which is presently contained in the Constitution.

SPEAKER MURPHY: No. That's what we specifically

didn't want to do.

JUDGE SMITH: It'd be an outright grant. Philosophi~
".j
cally that's the theory.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Now the next after the

Public Service Commission and State Board of Pardons and

Paroles, the next thing we have is the State Personnel Board,

Section III of Article IV.

JUDGE SMITH: I don't believe there were any

136 substantive changes here. There is a current limitation of

two terms and that was removed because we don't know anywhere

else there is a limitation of two terms.

MR. BOLTON: Actually, if you get a good one you

S ought to keep him.

JUDGE SMITH: We felt that was an unnecessary

limitation. I don't believe there were any substantive change~,
!:
8 were there?

c)

SPEAKER MURPHY: That was a terrible statement,

!O Arthur.

MR. BOLTON: I didn't mean it to go everywhere.

,,

J

I'll withdraw that. If you heard it, just forget it.

JUDGE SMITH: The change about the terms

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the

l~ ~ adoption of Section III, State Personnel Board?

:,

l (.

:I'

,. 1 ',' Z."

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

JUDGE SMITH: I should point out in Paragraph II, we

had some discussion there and the veterans preference is 2(; preserved there, but it only applies to state government. 2' There was some confusion as to whether a municipality or

county had to give a veteran preference and the commntee felt

that was going too far and we just left it for state

government and let the local governments decide on that.
,. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Is there any objection!
I

PAGE.; 137

to the adoption of State Personnel Board, Paragraphs I and a1s~

Paragraph I, veterans preference?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

All right, State Transportation Board, Section IV.

JUDGE SMITH: All right, it's back in.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Mr. Chairman, I move that that

State Transportation Board be as provided by law, not as

part of the Constitution.

i ".j

SPEAKER MURPHY: I think the worst part of it,

they've got it back getting us out of there again.

MR. TIDWELL: That's just like it was, Mr. Speaker.

JUDGE SMITH: The language is just like it is.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: If we leave it out of the

Constitution, the statute stays the way it is.
'-'
JUDGE SMITH: That's correct.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: We don't need it in the

Constitution. It's awfully had to justify keeping that one

in if we don't keep some of the others in.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That ain't the way I read this

thing now, Mr. Snow, you and Mr. Connell down there. If you

read that last sentence, "As each term of office expires, the

Governor shall appoint a successor as herein provided."

JUDGE SMITH: That was a scribner's error, that

should be

.I" ;1-(.',LI", 138

SPEAKER MURPHY: It sure was somebody's error, I'll

agree with that.

JUDGE SMITH: The intent was that the selection 4 process remain the same if we keep it in.

MR. HILL: That was just an error.

MR. HARRIS: They had already caught it.

SPEAKER MURPHY: They just didn't catch it in my

" draft.

MR. HARRIS: It was caught in pencil.

JUDGE SMITH: "Selected" is what it should be

11 instead of "appointed". (\ "",y REPRESENTATIVE SNOW:

That was a mistake, wasn't it.

MR. lfARRIS: It's supposed to read, "As each term

"I v

of office expires, a successor shall be elected as herein

:, provided." ~"le had already caught it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You move now that --

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I move that the State

Transportation Board be as provided by law.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's already the law.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: And eliminated from the

Constitution.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Is that not in the Constitution now?'

JUDGE SMITH: Yes, this Board is in there but a

companion statute so it would continue as a statutory board

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: As a point of clarification,

PAGE 139

I

,

there are several boards that you folks have left out.

These

have, for some reason or other, been included. The first

three are definitely needed in the Constitution, in my opinion

JUDGE SMITH: They were the first put back in after

they were all eliminated.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I'm going to do the same thing

with Veterans Service Board.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Well I'm going to move to put one

back in.

!I;

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well -- good.

(Laughter.)

SPEAKER MURPHY:
c
~~ where you belong.

Why don't you go on in yonder

,I

I'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion on Section IV is to

1"
delete Section IV and go by statute. Is there a second?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is the statute already in effect?

JUDGE SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Then I won't vote with him, I'd

sure like to change the provision of how they're elected. If

we have to write another statute, that'd be beautiful.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second to del,~te it

from the Constitution?

(No response.)
!
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There is no second.

The motion

dies.

PAC!', 140
MR. HARRIS: You're sitting too close to Judge Deen. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a motion now to adopt the Article Committee -SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, no, sir, I've got a motion I'm committed to make. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, make it. SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we put the Board of Natural Resources back in. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you one thing, I intended to do it. If you're going to leave the Transportation Board .J in and you're going to leave the Veterans Service Board in, you're going to kill the rationale I think of what has gone on anyway. So I think if you're going to put the State Transportation Board back in and you're going to put the Veterans Service Board in, there's no reason -SPEAKER MURPHY: I wouldn't mind taking the Veterans Service Board out. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What rim saying is if you're putting those in, I think you ought to put back in your Natural Resources, which is the next thing, and your Industry and Trade. JUDGE SMITH: As a matter of interest, in the committee we talked about the Department of Human Resources, they spend more money than the others, why shouldn't they be in?

This was the kind of dialogue we went through. SPEAKER MURPHY: I'll give you one she's got
that dadblamed thing on again, ain't she. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Seriously though, is there
any rationale for keeping the State Transportation Board in the Constitution?
MR. HARRIS: Ego. SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, it ain't ego, it's a matter that some of us remember the old days, Mr. Snow. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well we've still got a statute. SPEAKER MURPHY: Would you wait just a minute? Some of us remember the old days when somebody on the Board did something that somebody didn't like, they just repealed the board and got them out of office and started allover and put a new crowd in, and we just don't want it to ever get where that could happen again. That's just basically it. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well I don't think that's ever going to happen. SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't either, but I don't want to take a chance. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We have to have a motion -MR. BOLTON: Since we've had this Board I've not seen a Governor come on the scene who didn't name his director. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Everyone does. They've got

as much power now as they ever had before.

142 ---i

MR. BOLTON: I want you to know I stood on the

floor to explain this constitutional amendment y'all are

talking about.

JUDGE SMITH: The committee felt that if politics

was going to rule it, it doesn't make any difference whether

its statutory or constitutional.

MR. BOLTON: I said it would get it out of politics

insofar as you could get the Highway Board out of politics
,. and everybody laughed.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I was one of the three that voted

, against it.

:

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to

correcting the scribner's error there about "As each term of

office expires, the successor shall be elected as herein

provided.. "? If not, it's -- the Article Committee's

report is so amended.

Now then the question is on the adoption of the

Article Committee's recommendation, is there a motion?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Did we vote on Veterans

Service Board?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE; You made a motion and you didn't

get a second, it's out of order. Now the question is

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW; Mine was on the State

Transportation Board. You asked me if I was __<I<::?~n<J_to_~() it

143 , on both of them and I said yes but I never did make one.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is on the State

Transportation Board and in Paragraph I we have just changed

the scribner's error there. Now it's on the State Transporta-

tion Board to continue as it is in the Constitution, as

recommended by the Articles Committee.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we adopt it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It has been moved, is there a

second?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

Is there any discussion?
_'.i
(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

aye.

"

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

(Nay. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. Everybody votes in

the affirmative except Mr. Snow. It's still adopted.

Veterans Service Board; how composed; commissioner.

Section V, that's your Veterans Service Board. Now what's

the reason that's in there?

JUDGE SMITH: Joe Wood was on the committee, he

had the votes. Let me say that the argument for it was there

144 was a feeling by some of the members that we were getting
further and further away from the World War II type of veteran i
and maybe the new generation wouldn't have an appreciation for the problems of the veteran and therefore it ought to be preserved in the Constitution. What else was it, Mel?
MR. HILL: That's the major reason. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's a pretty good reason. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I can't fight that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You can't? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I personally don't think these , boards need to be in there. I think we've got a good General Assembly now and will continue to have because we have independence in the legislature -- we have some independ~nce GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Independent of whom? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Independent of the Governor's Office. You helped to create some of these problems that you've inherited. So just for the purpose of being consistent" I move that the Veterans Service Board be eliminated from the
j':
Constitution. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, the motion is made that
the Veterans Service Board be eliminated. Is there a second? (No response.)
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, the motion dies. Let's move on.
Is there a motion that the recommendation of the

PACE 145
Committee be adopted? SPEAKER MURPHY: On what? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Veterans Service Board. SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we adopt it. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.
Is there any discussion? (No response.)
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those -- well is there any objection?
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we put Natural Resources Board back in as it was in the original -- in the present Constitution. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What else was taken out, Industry and Trade and Natural Resources -JUDGE SMITH: Board of Offender Rehabilitation is another one. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, you're talking about Natural Resources, that's your motion, be placed back as is. Is there a second? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I'll second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's seconded. Is there discussion on Natural Resources?

MR. HILL:

j'\C}; 146
l
Mr. Chairman, we have attempted with the

redraft of these boards to develop some consistency with the

language so if you're going to put the Board of Natural

Resources back in, I'd like to have the opportunity to bring

it in line with the others.

JUDGE SMITH: I was going to suggest there is sort

of a form here.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection -- well

wait a minute, first did you want to put it back in?

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we put it back in --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You accept the amendment in this

form?

'I
1;
: ; zI.~l 'a"
!
..,0:
aye.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Discussion?
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?
.\j
(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's unanimously placed back in.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Governor, may I bring up something:

we've already passed? I want to throw this out here
'.1
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We're leaving out the others now.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I know. This is dealing with the

PAGE 147
Pardons and Paroles Board. I just wanted to make this comment Under the Constitution as it was , before the
Pardons and Paroles Board in death cases could investigate or 'I make an investigation in death cases, the Governor had to
trigger it before they could do it. Now I know that this is a headache to you but I'm thinking about the limitation. Here we have the Pardons and Paroles Board composed of five lay people and we have the death sentence. Now I'm saying we either ought to enforce it pr we ought to abolish it. In case after case after case, we've got them down there waiting six and eight years to be executed.
The Pardons and Paroles Board now under this thing when you take off the limitation, every case goes through there, they can have the authority after 27 judges -- and I say 27 because there are 12 jurors and the trial judge and seven Supreme Court Justices and seven Supreme Court of the United States Justices, that's 27 -- have said that there is sufficient evidence to convince a reasonable trier of facts
of every element of the crime has been proven beyond a reasona~le
doubt. Now after all that is done, the Pardons and Paroles Board can turn around and say you don't know what you're talking about, we're going to commute this or we're going to -they can absolutely turn them loose. Now without any limitation at all now. We only had one and that was from DeKalb County, up to "now, and they commuted that from death to life.

PACE 148

Now they go directly to the Pardons and Paroles Board and I

may be wrong, but I visualize that every death case you have

now is going to wind up in the Pardons and Paroles Board, that's

another delay after it has been to the Supreme Court of Georgia, Supreme Court of the United States and all these (; collateral issues have been thrashed out, you're going to turn;

it back over to them, that's another delay and they have the

complete authority -- and I don't know whether there's even

9
,i

a lawyer on the Board or not -- to say that these judges and

10 these jorors have heard the case, reviewed the record, they
',.,)

;,. have the complete authority to wipe it out.

;<:,-1//0.,

I know it's a constitutional board and they have

~/"~f~,;.-,"~-$r'~!\,!';,,,,,n- that authority but I was just concerned about the fact that

:4 , there is no limitation now since the Governor doesn't have to
<~
r
I :5 ,~,
~ trigger them. That's the only case, in death cases, where
=>
I::::'
! ~, l
the Governor has to, under the Constitution as it presently
G
J; I~:
is, has to give the Pardons and Paroles Board authority to

investigate.
19
JUDGE SMITH: Well on the general subject, we were trying to get the Governor out of the process, that the Board
,. l should not use the Governor as an excuse not to do this or

that, but the Board ought to take its responsibilities and

move forward. We, inside the committee we did not feel that

they should wait until the end of all litigation to start

PAGE 149 ready, to stop some of the delay that you're talking about. 2 They debated that back and forth but felt as a matter of ;! constitutional authority that it ought to be an outright grant and it would have to be corrected by appointment.
JUSTICE NICHOLS: If the legislature -- now this (, comes in again with the legislature having authority to put
some limitation on it -JUDGE SMITH: They don't under what you have just
adopted. JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's what I'm saying. As of
<',
now there's no limitation at all, they can grant everyone of , them and possibly will --
SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge-GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker? SPEAKER MURPHY: The only thing that I can say on this is I'm fully cognizant of some things you have said, but the only argument in direct conflict or on the other side of this issue is, as I understand it the appellate courts, the jurors decide the issue of the fact, that's the way it's supposed to be done. The Superior Court Judge and the Appellate Court decide the question of whether the law itself has been complied with to see that this man is tried and sentenced to the electric chair. The function of the Pardons and Paroles Board would not be to look to the legal requirements of it, but would be to look to see if a jury had been

150

inflamed or something of that nature to grant -- to issue the

death sentence and that's the last say as to what the facts -,, are. I think that's basically the reason for that, isn't it,

Judge?

JUDGE SMITH: Yes. It's not supposed to be a legal

test but a mercy test, clemency test.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the reason it was put there.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It was taken from the Governor.

You have a right to commute a sentence -- in every state where
]0 you have the death sentence you have some right for some
V 7.
IJ b part of government to commute the sentence. The people took
"-
!,j.;
c:
'.' it from the Governor and put it in this Board, Constitutional
" 'p-' ~ \;,!__~I..!!..T~~"I:_ .. , Board. It's a question whether you're going to have anybody

with the right to commute a sentence or not. That might be in

order but unless there is a motion --

SPEAKER MURPHY:
,.
i:il can conunute it.

There ought to be somebody who

JUSTICE NICHOLS: To answer your question, Mr.

Speaker, in Jackson v. Virginia, the Supreme Court handed down,

last June, they held that the District Court Judge -- I'm

talking about evidence now -- the District Court Judge, after

all this has taken place, has the authority and is directed

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the Supreme Court of the

United States, sir?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Yeah. Mandated, that they go

PAGE 151

[,--

..----.--- .. _---------------1

through the records with a fine toothed comb and determine

just exactly what I quoted to you. They must find that there

is sufficient evidence in the record to convince a reasonable

trier of facts -- this is a quote -- that every element of

the crime has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Now

after 27 people have already said there is sufficient

evidence to do that, they still have

SPEAKER MURPHY: They said the District Court Judge

(} : could set it aside on his own --

'-

10

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Yes, sir, that's Jackson v.

:{,

; ~ 'r Virginia.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Since I got out of the criminal law'
,
" practice, I don't keep up with that any more but that is
.i .:~ ridiculous, I agree with that.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's what I'm talking about.

!f} .. Of course, I don't know that -- I went along with you on this

thing, I'm just calling it out to you because it's in the

Board. We created it as a constitutional board but I sometimes:
I
doubt the wisdom if we don't have some limitation Here are

five men who are laymen, know nothing about -- of course it's

a mercy thing, but thi.s is dealing with exactly what you're

talking about, evidence. Now if it's law that's a different

story, but under Jackson v. Virginia, that's what they held.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any further discussion?

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve the Article as we .... - -_._-_.. _ - - _ . _ - _ . _ - j

['A(;E 152

I 'i have tentatively approved each section.

2

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made, is there a

second?

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I'll second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

JUDGE SMITH: Unless there's some more boards you

want to put back in.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Article is adopted.

(, i !

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: You haven't heard from the

others, they'll be heard from.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me ask the question that the

,'.~'iY!(,~,

Attorney General has brought up, Judge Smith, that you might

.'(r;cJ)') - ;,~".".

-\,\.' ,
_"

<

//

.. /.

have the answer to that I had never thought of.

Do we have any way to get rid of any of these board

members if they ain't competent or anything like that, under

:'; ": our Constitution?

MR. BOLTON: These are just appointed board members,

they have the right to be impeached, you can actually impeach

them; as I view it, it applies only to an elected Constitution4l

officer. You shouldn't have to impeach a member of the ) I Department of Offender Rehab. somewhere. There should be a

method that the legislature could provide by law for removal

of appointed constitutional board members

.:l

JUDGE SMITH: This Constitution provides that

removal from office is a proper subject for the General Assembly.

PAGE 153

SPEAKER MURPHY: There is a provision for that in

\'-

the Article? All right.

MR. HARRIS: As to each one.

JUDGE SMITH: That's part of each one.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, that motion was adopted~

Thank you, Judge.

JUDGE SMITH: Thank you all.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Next -- Harold, I'm sorry the

Judge took so long.

JUDGE SMITH: It wasn't my fault.

(Brief pause.)
:>
"'.'
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Harold, you want to go

on and take off on yours then?

MR. CLARKE: Yes, sir. I do not have any boards to

. be put back in or removed. I think you'll find that most of

what we have here deals with fairly practical politics except

" for a broad basic philosophic thing, the Article being one

that gives a broad grant of power and then goes into limita-

tions, and I would hope that the Select Committee, prior to
.,
,., finishing its consideration of this Article would at least

.....'

make an expression for the record to build some legislative

intent or history in favor of the philosophy of there being

a broad inherent power of the General Assembly with specific

limitations. It is my feeling that this would go a long ways

in reducing the necessity for constitutional amendments down _ _ _ _ _1

the road.

PAGE 154

I suppose the best thing to do is go section-by-

section and paragraph-by-paragraph in those where there are

changes. Would that be okay?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that would be appropriate.

() If there are no objections, proceed.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I of Section I, there is no

change except as a --

SPEAKER MURPHY: There is a change.

MR. CLARKE: No, sir, I'm not to Section II yet.

Paragraph I is only a statement
'.:1
SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, yeah.

MR. CLARKE: I'll get to that in just a minute.

Now Paragraph I of Section II, there is a change in h " that the present Constitution provides that the state Senate ll" shall have not more than 56 members nor less than 54. rrhis

changes it to exactly -- or rather, this puts a ceiling of 56

but puts no floor. There can be a reduction below the 54

under this provision.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman

.' I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker.

SPEAKER MURPHY: In the Committee -- subcommittee,
,\
which the Lieutenant Governor and I were members, we had this
.')
pegged at "shall be not less than 56 SenatorsUand in the next

one not less than 180. It got somewhere else and it got changed.

PAGE 155
" .-------------------r
I don't know when it got changed but I'm going to make a

motion, if it's all right, here and now that we change that

"more" to 'less than 56" and then you can make it for me on the

other one, will you, Governor?

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: All right.

(,

MR. CLARKE: By way of explanation, I will say this,

-, that the Speaker is absolutely correct. The subcommittee set

it at not less than

,) - -,-

MR. HARRIS: Set it at 56. MR. CLARKE: Fifty six, you're correct, and then the!i

full committee changed that and put "not more than 56". So

'.' that is how this came about.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move that we change the "more" to

"less".

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Second.

~:
Speaker?

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL:

In both of them, Mr.

SPEAKER MURPHY: He's going to make the motion for

I"

us, I'm making it for him.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you this, who would set

-- under the subcommittee, they recommended the exact number?

MR. CLARKE: Yes, sir.

so that

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: "Shall be 56" and "shall be 180",

MR. CLARKE: No, sir. The subcommittee recommended

PAGE 156
, " that it shall be 56 and the subcommittee then recommended that the House be not less

MR. HARRIS: The subcommittee said 180.

SPEAKER MURPHY: No, we didn't, we went back and

changed that.

MR. CLARKE: I believe for the House they said not

. less than.

SPEAKER MURPHY: We went back and changed that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, the motion is that paragraph,

iU (a) "The Senate shall consist of not less than 56 Senators,
c,O.
.. each of whom shall be elected from single-member districts."
::) "-
, , Is that the motion?

.II >. ~ -; :r
}:1 ,.~

SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there a second?
LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Second.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, any discussion?

(No response.)

]'i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor say aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted.

All right (b).

MR. CLARKE: I think the same thing is applicable,

so I don't think it needs any explanation.

PAGE 157

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I make a motion that we

"more ll to "less".

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

1

SPEAKER MURPHY: I second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion has been made and

" seconded. Any discussion?

(No response.)

K

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye~

q

(Ayes. )

II \
" ...

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. All right, go ahead.

'" , z

1

'-,

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph II contains a change that is

,~.

12-

,-,
"

slight but nevertheless

important and significant.

It says

"The General Assembly may provide for apportionment of Senate
", !
and House districts. II That language is envisioned as allowing
r
for some general law which would -- could set up some sort

of commission to do it should the General Assembly deem it
c c,
0' wise. Otherwise it's pretty much the same as in the past.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a motion on that? Is . I~j there objection to adopting Paragraph II of Article III?

'I,)

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

Paragraph III.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph III has one change in the
'. age criteria for being a member of the Senate, it's changed

from 25 to 21, the same as the House.

t',\GE 158

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I object.

MR. HARRIS: You haven't seen 25 in 35 years.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: What's the thinking in changing

'T

it from 25?

SPEAKER MURPHY: We tried to bring the Senate up to

(, a par wi th the House.

(Laughter. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a substitute motion?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think it ought to go from 25

\() to 45. I have a substitute motion that the Senate remain 25

j j years of age.

\'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, the substitute motion

is that the Article be changed to make it 25 years of age
I: ;; which is the present Constitution for the Senate. Is there a
'"1.
1S ~: second? " REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I'll second the motion.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

All right, is there objection?

(No response.)

.:0

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, the Senate remains at 25

21 and I assume now --

1""1

SPEAKER MURPHY: Wait a minute now.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Shouldn't we vote on it?

MR. HARRIS: You'd better take a vote for the

record, Mr. Chairman.

PAGE 159

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all those in favor of

2 the motion, raise your hand.

3

(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four. All right, opposed?

<; ::

(Votes were cast.)

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I want to explain my vote.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You can explain it, but you lost.
x Five to three, so the motion is adopted. Explain your vote in

less than fifty words.

:u

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: The reason that I voted

11

against it, my original motion in our subcommittee was to

'

t ,

,

,

-

-,/

I

./ take the age qualification off altogether and I think we finally came up with that 21 as a compromise to that.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Altogether?

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Altogether. If they'll

elect somebody -- don't you believe in the vote of the people?!

MR. HARRIS: You've been talking about it all the

time. ,;

SPEAKER MURPHY: How is that going to read now?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: For drafting, is there any objecti~n

to "At the time of their election, the members of the Senate

shall be citizens of the United States, shall be at least 25

-

years of age " Let them draft it there but then it would

read 21 years for the Representatives. All right, is there

objection?

PACE 160

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph III as amended 3 ' is adopted, 25 years for Senators.

All right, Disqualification is IV, let's move on.

,;

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph IV dealing with disqualifica-

(; tions, the main change there has to do with persons who are

on temporary active duty with the Armed Forces not being

disqualified, if they're on permanent active duty, they would. ,) Otherwise it's the same as previously.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead.

'.'j

MR. CLARKE: Skipping down then to (c) under IV,

.,

I. ~:.

there is the --

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Mr. Chairman, there was another

J~t ,- change in Paragraph III evidently, the citizenry requirement

I s ..,,.~ of four years in the Senate and two in the House

::..'

I ;. U

r.'J
:1.

"C',

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Say that again.

1:

'" .., <,

I

))'

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Was that not so?

18 II,:

MR. HILL: It was made uniform, that's right.

J9 )\

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I would also like to move that

20 stay four years.

2J

SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman.

,,,-,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

.,

'-.

SPEAKER MURPHY: You two Judges, am I not correct,

has not the Federal Court ruled that you can't have a require-

ment over a year or something similar to that?

PAGE 161
------ ----- ------------1

I

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I'm not familiar with that.

!

i

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I have a recollection of that. I

MR. HILL: Those relate more to voting.

MR. TIDWELL: Voter eligibility, not -- I think

'; it's still within the purview of the state to set qualifications I
o for officeholders.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I'd just have to say a year is

long enough to live in a district.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Is your motion -!) you want to reconsider the Paragraph III?

'i

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Yes. We changed the 21 back to

I? ,~; 24 for the Senate and I --

.~ '. ,,-; I It,'
~1 l . i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Twenty five.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: -- requirements for citizenship,

15 ,'J. four years.
:",
GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

You want it left the same as it is,

now, 25 years of age and four years of residence in the distri~t?

.:. ;.~

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Yes.

SPEAKER MURPHY: What was it for the House?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Two years.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I think we ought to leave it one

year for both myself. I object.
'. ,
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I believe the present

Constitution provides four years in the State and one year in

the district.

PAGE 162
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: For the Senate?
MR. CLARKE: For the Senate, yes, sir.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well I just don't propose to
change it, I don't think we need it changed. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What you would be doing, both of
them you would just have to have been a resident of the district for one year, but for the House you would have to be a resident of the State for two years and for the Senate a resident of 'i the State for four years. I think I'm right on that.
SPEAKER MURPHY: Yeah, you're right, it's a
_. resident of the State four years in the Senate and two years
in the House and one year in the district in both of them.
I really object to that. I can't see -- being a i I-~ ~., resident a year, that's long enough, if anybody's going to
r
~) ~':.~ elect them they deserve what they're going to get anyway.
,-,,;
) (.~ ~
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I'd like to increase it.
"
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's have a motion on it. We
i "~
have reconsidered so Paragraph III is up now. The recommendale; tion of the Articles Committee is that they will be 21 years
of age, been a resident of the State for two years and a resident of the district for one year. All right, now anybody i
10
-- that's the proposal, any change? Give me your change
proposal, any motion. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I believe we've already voted on
the age situation, Mr. Chairman.

PAGE 163

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Twenty five, right. We

reconsidered, you asked me to reconsider it. Is there any

objection to re-adopting the 25 year age limit for the Senate?

REPP~SENTATIVE SNOW: Why don't we make i t 25 for

both houses.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Let's make it 21 for both.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second? You remake

your motion for 25.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: My motion was to increase the

iO two years to four years for the Senate.
\.;
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to what

I you have already done? We have to reconsider the action that

..~ i /.,.. ,4 i I!" -

was taken in order to go back to consider the paragraph as a whole. If there is no objection to leaving your action of 25

years for the Senate, it's 25.

All right, now go to your residence requirement,

what's your motion on that?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That the Senate be four years

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: As a resident of the State and

one year as a resident of the district, which is what it is

today. The motion is made, is there a second?

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I second it.
REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I make a substitute motion tha~
I I
'J both the House and the Senate be four years and one year.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Do what?

PAG)i; 164

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I make a substitute motion that

the Senate and the House be four years in the State and one

year in the district.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Do you realize what you're doing?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Not really.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: A substitute motion is made. Is

there a second to the substitute?

SPEAKER MURPHY: You're giving all the advantage to

the Senate, don't you understand that?

1i-motion.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I withdraw my substitute

"'Y'Y~1"

.,

SPEAKER MURPHY: When you seconded the motion,

(tiE";)) rC""~'.;; you're giving them the advantage.

~.,

/

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I didn't second his motion.

,'

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.:1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, the motion is then that

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it's four years

for

the Senate and two years

for

the House

t.:I

l.

;5

7!.1 I reckon by inuendo there .

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I didn't do anything about the

I") House, Governor, at all.

20 I.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Four years for the Senate, two

years a resident of the district. Is there a second to that

motion?

2.'

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You said one -- one year

for the district.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: One year, right. Four and one.

! All right, for the Senate.

PAGE 165
------------ --------------------j

Is there discussion?

i

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye~

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

(Nays. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All in favor, raise your right

hand.

"

(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Six. All opposed.

(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, it's adopted by six to

two.
J '.:

All right, next we have to perfect it for the House.

What's the age limit and what's residence.

SPEAKER MURPHY: What was it already?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Twenty-one, two and one. Twenty

one years of age, two years a resident of the State and one

year for the district. Is that the motion?

JUDGE DEEN: I make that motion.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded,

is there discussion?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye~

1>\I;I~: 166

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. Is there any

objection having the drafting committee redraft that to reflect

your intent?

(No response.)

"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, they are so instructed.

Next paragraph, Harold.

,(,

MR. CLARKE: All right, sir, on disqualifications

" I believe we've already talked or perhaps we were just
!) .1 beginning to talk Paragraph IV, subparagraph (a) which deals
.-
-j
with persons on temporary active duty with any branch of

.I : the armed forces.

i ) .~)
,, u:

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

:6 c~: any objection to that?

You did explain that.

Is there

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. All right,

(b)

MR. CLARKE: In (b) there is no change from the --

)t

~., l

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to (b)?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Now you

wanted to discuss this?

MR. CLARKE: Yes, the present Constitutional

,

- - - --~~ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

PAGE 167

provision requires that no member of the General Assembly

can serve as an appointed official in any job that is created

during the time he's in the General Assembly. This would

change this to simply say that he would have to resign in

) order to be appointed to that position.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any discussion:

on this?

MR. BOLTON: Under the present law if you create a

new Superior Court Judgeship in a circuit, a member of the

General Assembly that was serving would not be eligible for
'1 ,l
appointment. This way he would be eligible for appointment

if he chose to resign.

MR. CLARKE: That is correct.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there a motion that

(c) be adopted?

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Moved.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made, is there a

second?

"

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I'll second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

All right, now is there any discussion?

JUDGE DEEN: I don't believe the people would like

that motion, but go ahead.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well if you want to speak

1

JUDGE DEEN:

Well

i t just might be a _li~_t_t_l_e__ ~~~~ec t

iif 1

-

PAGE 168 an additional office was created by the General Assembly and

then several of those proponents were appointed to that -- I

would discourage it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any other discussion on it?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all those in favor of

the amendment, raise -- rise and stand and be counted.

(Votes were cast.)

!O

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Three. VOICE: Four. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four, I'm sorry. All opposed.
(Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four. Let's everybody vote.
(Laughter. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No. I want to count your votes,

.

rJ-,

t: ,I, I I m not trying to pres s anybody on thi s. All in favor. I

S
f 7 ~ had five, is that right? No, wait a minute. All in favor of

the motion, rise and stand and be counted.

(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. All opposed.

(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four. ~ opposed to that

provision, I think it's bad, so I'm against it.

SPEAKER MURPHY: What do you want to do then?

MR. BOLTON: I think go back to the old one.

PAGE 169

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is that a new provision? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That1s a new provision, isn1t it?

MR. CLARKE: There is an old provision, this one is just a little more liberal than the old one in that it does allow you to resign and be appointed. The old one would not

allow you to be appointed at all.
MR. HILL: The present Constitution says IIOuring
the term for which he was elected, no Senator or Representativ~
shall be appointed to any civil office which has been created
during such term." And that language can now be inserted back
into this.
,.
"
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to reinserting

that?
, ,.~

(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Then it1s reinserted. All right, Paragraph V, Election and term of

members. MR. CLARKE: There is no change in Paragraph V. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adoption of
Paragraph V? (No response.)
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it1s adopted. All right, Section III, Officers of the General Assembly.
,I
MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I has the obvious change

that has already been discussed by the committee regarding the

170 Lieutenant Governor, or rather the election of the presiding

) :, officer by the Senate.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We just addressed this now, I

don't know how to handle it, in another Article.

SPEAKER MURPHY: What Paragraph I did was put the

Senate in the same position as the House. In case the

'7 President dies or resigns or the Speaker dies or resigns

the President Pro Tern goes to the President's job just like

the Speaker Pro Tern does to the Speaker's job. That's all it

;,.1

does.

1\

MR. CLARKE: That's Paragraph I(b).

SPEAKER MURPHY: Paragraph I just puts it like the

House is now.

I)

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I(a) provides that the Senate,

l5~:
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elect its own presiding officer. That's the one you've already acted on.
SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, my God, when did y'all change

that?
.l \)
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.,

MR. CLARKE: At that same -SPEAKER MURPHY: Same meeting I wasn't at? MR. CLARKE: See what happens when you don't come.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think that matter was addressed

on a previous vote.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We voted once.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: This is where we wanted to

-

---- ----P-A- -G-E----1-7-1- - I

] " give the Lieutenant Governor additional duties.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Where is the language, Lieutenant

l " Governor, that we adopted in our subcommittee that worked

this thing over?

MR. HILL: Back in the files.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Well I want to go back to what the

subcommittee did, that's what I want.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: This is where we have to

give the Lieutenant Governor additional duties. We already

,......

I' "

did keep him like he is, we want to give him additional duties,

:.

7

.:" and take that (a) out.
.,

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: What you put there in place

of (a) is that the Lieutenant Governor shall be President of

the Senate.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right, shall be President

of the Senate and have such other duties as assigned by law.

\ .-; "Y-o

jI

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REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Thatls right, that's what

you want to do.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Now what you had in this other

one -- I think if youtre going to do this, 1 1 11 go along with

this, that you provide -- and you had it under V, "The

Lieutenant Governor shall have such executive duties "

First, hets the presiding officer. "The Lieutenant Governor

shall have such executive duties as prescribed by the Governor

and as may be prescribed by law not inconsistent with the powers

PACE 172

of the Governor or the provisions of this Constitution."

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is that the present?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's what was proposed when you

,/ were going to expand his authority.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Where is the section that says

he'll be presiding officer of the Senate?

MR. TIDWELL: On page 12.

MR. HARRIS: Page 12 of the present Constitution.

'I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is the way it would read

II (a) The presiding officer of the Senate shall be styled the

1' President of the Senate.

"(b) A President Pro Tern shall be elected by the Senate from

among its members. The President Pro Tern shall become

14 i"~- President in case of the death, resignation or permanent
(
:;:
, " ~ disability of the President.
"':1
SPEAKER MURPHY: We've done put the Lieutenant

: 7 Governor back as presiding officer of the Senate.

l:s I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right.

lY I

MR. HARRIS: You've done that in Article V.

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But here's what I'm getting to

right now.

MR. HARRIS: You designate him here as the President'

of the Senate.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: That's what you need to do
,.::,
here and give him such other duties as provided by law.

PAGE 173

MR. HARRIS: When you specify in Article V, the

Executive Article, as you voted to change it, what the change

will now reflect is what you said, and that is that the

Lieutenant Governor shall be the President of the Senate.

That will be designated in Article V, so you don't need to

repeat it in Article III other than to eliminate that portion

of (a) that says "and shall be elected by the Senate from

among its members".

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think he's right. Is there

any objection then, to be consistent with what we have just

~ done, if we simply strike those words, is that what we voted

.~

"
., on, "and shall be " no

-

MR. TIDWELL: It's just the way you read it,

Governor. The way you read it is what Robin just said.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: "The presiding officer of the

Senate shall be styled the President of the Senate." And

eliminate the rest.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Is there objection?

MR. HARRIS: Now you have already said who the

-.

President of the Senate is . GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: But here you want to also

say "and shall have have such other duties as provided by law. ":

You need to add that.

MR. HILL: That will be specified over in V.

PAGE ).74.
REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Would it be appropriate

for V? We said over in V we were going to specify that in

III.

MR. HILL: Well we're going to specify his

executive duties in V.

MR. TIDWELL: It'll be in V, Jack.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's where you're going to put

it back now after you've taken this action, you're going to

put it back, II s hall have such additional duties as -- where

is that wording, I had it in front of me. You've already

~. got it in front of you on V, "The Lieutenant Governor shall

.1 have such executi.ve duties as prescribed by the Governor and

as may be prescribed by law not inconsistent with the powers

of the Governor or other provisions of this Constitution. 1I
'/1

I.

,,',

MR. HARRIS: And we're going to add back in there

1:1 as you have directed that the Lieutenant Governor shall be CJ t,

the President of the Senate.

I
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to that now1

'4

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not -- well go ahead, Senator

Holloway.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: IIWhen a President Pro Tempore

becomes President of the Senate as provided in this paragraph,

such President shall receive the same compensation, allowances

as the Speaker of the House of Representatives. The provisions

PAGE 175

ii of this paragraph shall become effective on the first day of

\1

)

iI
II

the regular

session of

the General Assembly."

Are we leaving

.J i,'I all that out?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, that needs to be addressed.

I,
ii
6 because

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Of course it does, sure it does,

SPEAKER MURPHY: All we did was change -- put the

same language for the Senate that we did for the House and

the Speaker Pro Tern, where if something happened to me, Jack :u would move up and he'd get my salary as a matter of law, just

~; .~
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like you would get his without all that garbage in Constitution
MR. HILL: That's handled by law, that's

the why

SPEAKER MURPHY: You can handle that by law, Jack,

\ :::
;.)

that's the way the law provides.

MR. HILL: And it wasn't felt -- I mean, this is
2.
.,.
exactly the same.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That sentence is in the law?

MR. HILL: Uh-huh, it's in the law now. You know,

20 that's the very kind of thing that ought to be mechanical --

", I,

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I understand.

MR. TIDWELL: Is it, Frank? Is it in the law?

MR. EDWARDS: (Nodding head negatively.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Wait a minute, Ham and Frank both

are saying that's not in the law now.

- ---- -- --.----- -

MR. HILL:

--'~
I
The intention is that this be covered by

law.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But we have to pass that through

the House in order for that to be.

MR. HILL: And the effective date is July of '81

(, to give us the next session of the General Assembly

SPEAKER MURPHY: Look, Mel, it says "The Speaker

" Pro Tern shall become Speaker in case of the death, resignation

or permanent disability of the Speaker." Now that means

J!! he's going to get the Speaker's salary and the Speaker' s offic~

I:,\s,v~d~\

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and everything the Speaker's got, is, he's going to get it. That's Arthur?
MR. BOLTON: Yeah.

whatever all that

little amount it can mean, ain't it,

SPEAKER MURPHY: Don't the same thing --

.,

t 6 Z"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think you're right as far as

'':"1

<
I 7 ,'" that's concerned but I don't think you're right as far as the

\ C> Senate is concerned.

1c';J

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: It's not in the law.

,'()

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's not in the law.

MR. TIDWELL: What this committee needs to do is

do what the subcommittee adopted on this provision, isn't

_.\ that right, Ham, you were a member of that subcommittee. And
.,
~_.~f it squared -- it put the Speaker Pro Tern and the President

, ;~
Pro Tern in the same posture of receiving the salary, but this

--,---- - ----.---- ' - - - ' - - -~----------.---_.'--

- - -~--- ---------

,._---_._------------ .----------._--_._--~-~---

PAGE 177 does not do it. What this committee has to do is go back and

2 adopt the subcommittee's proposal.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to move that we do this?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I don't want to jump into this

) thing hurriedly and take twenty years to straighten it out --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What I'm saying is this, you're

right it is not covered under the Constitution. It was a misapprehension -- well, I'll just say this, we were just wron~I,
it's not in the statute. So if you're going to correct it and I I
:J make it consistent, it needs to be done now.

MR. TIDWELL: I can go find it if you want to pass

on to something else.

I

, ,.~'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's just go to the next paragrap~

while he finds it, he thinks it's in there. Do you think it's

in the law, Charlie?

MR. TIDWELL: Pardon?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You think that's in the law?

MR. TIDWELL: It's not in the law but we've got a

proposal to put in the Constitution, everybody can see what

'-' we're talking about.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, go ahead.

MR. CLARKE: Governor, what Charlie is talking about

is that the subcommittee had an entirely different Section III

".l and perhaps it would be well to skip over Section III until

he comes back with it.

PAGE 178
"
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection that we suspend on Section III?
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go to Section IV then if there's no objection. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I of Section IV deals with the time for meetings and the time for adjournment. The significant thing with regard to Paragraph I(a) is that it not only says you will meet in regular session beginning on the second Monday in Janua~of each year, but it also adds ; l "or as otherwise provided by law". There has been some talk !l ~: about the possibility of having a one-day pre-session session for organization purposes in December. This would allow that to be done by statute. The (b) of Paragraph I attempts to clarify the "..:
.:J
1(I f provisions for the Governor to adjourn both houses when there is a disagreement as to adjournment for a time not to exceed ten days. We had a lot of discussion about the exact language
','
.J in order to accomplish that. (c) provides that -SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me explain that to them. AI,
what happened there, you and Wayne and Jack will be interested in this, we felt like, and you have felt like in past years, th~ Senate has, that if. the Governor just wouldn't pass on a bill, you know, we didn't have any chance in the second year of our

PAGE
term to override his veto. We felt like -- I mean -- this L is just on adjournment?
MR. CLARKE: This is on adjournment here. SPEAKER MURPHY: We felt like, the Senate and I felt like the Governor ought to have a way to adjourn us. He ought to have a way to adjourn us if we were in disagreement, I and this is the simplest way to do it. If we send you a i: resolution to adjourn and you don't adopt it within the next day, I believe it is, I drew the language, but I can't remembe~ : (1 what it was -- if you didn't amend it and adopt it by the next:
.)
., day, if it wasn't adopted by the end of that next legislative
'"
day, the Governor could adjourn us for ten days. I felt like
i
I
we ought to have that protection when both of us get bullheade4 sometimes and ain't thinking straight or right, I felt like we ought to have that protection.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The limitation, Mr. Speaker, would be the ten days. Now there's some question about whether the !
..~'
Governor has a right to adjourn if you can't agree on adjournment and we get down to the twelfth hour, but in the event I did adjourn you, I mean, I can just adjourn you.
"I
SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What this does is it limits it clarifies first that the Governor can adjourn. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It says that either house can send

J'AGE 180

such a

SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir, either house.

3

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. But it's limited to ten

days though.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Where is that?

MR. HARRIS: After the thirtieth legislative day.

7

SPEAKER MURPHY: On line 23, IIIn the event either

house, after the thirtieth day of any session .. 11

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: IIIn the event either house,' after !O the thirtieth day of any session, adopts a resolution to l! '. adjourn for a specified period of time and such resolution

and any amendments thereto are not adopted by both houses by

the end of the legislative day on which adjournemtnwas called

for in such resolution, the Governor may adjourn both houses

for a period of time not to exceed ten days."

c,.,'

!.

('. ,'r

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: length of time?

The time is what, after what

SPEAKER MURPHY: Thirty days.

MR. HARRIS: Thirty legislative days, talking about
20 the last ten days of the session.
,
SPEAKER MURPHY: I felt like we needed that protecti~n

when all of us get mad and upset.

MR. CLARKE: The importance of this insofar as the

people are concerned is it can avoid the necessity for

special sessions.

.'

-_ I .._~.---------~-_.~._'------'-~

PAGE 181

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. I think frankly it

would give the Governor a right that a lot of folks thought he

didn't have. I thought he had it myself.

't

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I thought he and eigher house

could adjourn any time.

'l

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well that's what I think too, but

this clarifies it.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I thought he could too, but this

just makes sure it's that way.

"l
.: ......-

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But it limits it to ten days SPEAKER MURPHY: It let's y'a1l stay in session if

we're impeaching somebody.

r '!L'_l'~""

..I)

,

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: How about moving on. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to adoption

" of (b)?
-'
I,

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

MR. CLARKE: (c) simply provides that if the, Senate

is involved in an impeachment trial, the House can adjourn and

\('
...:.'..) the Senate can go forward with its business.

,,

~, I

Do you want to take these up as we go along,

Governor, or just --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to (c)?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It says they shall adjourn, so it i

won't count as a legislative day.

PAGE 182

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If there's no objection, it's

adopted. Go ahead.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph lIon the next page, the

present Constitution prescribes the exact oath. This simply

:; says that the oath will be as provided by law.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraph II?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted, III.

"

MR. CLARKE: The quorum provision here provides for

:0 a majority of the members to which each house is entitled

J 1 ~; rather than a majority of the members. I think the concern ,. o. 'J.:
J) v was what happens if you've got a vacancy. And this, as I

understand it, would be a majority of the full membership

14 ~ rather than the ones who are actually sitting.

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SPEAKER MURPHY: That was our intent. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection?
(No response.)

.., ~,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph I~.

IlJ

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph IV is not now in the present

'I) I Constitution but just simply says that each house shall determihe

!I its rules of procedure. That's not in the Constitution

1 ' presently.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? Any discussion on

it?

(NO response.)

-~---------- - _ .. _ - - - - - - - - - - - - _ .... _ ..------!

PAGE 183
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any Obj~~t-i-O~;__-:------------l

(No response.)

i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, IV is adopted.

Open meetings.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph V is one that was put in at

the full meeting of the committee and it does provide for

open meetings of .all committees and sessions of the General

Assembly, except where they are dealing with property trans-

I! actions or appointments or removal from public office, they

can have a statute which would provide otherwise. This is a

new section that is not in the present Constitution.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph V, is there any objectio*?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: How about personnel discussions?

MR. CLARKE: Yes, sir, personnel considerations,

it says "shall be open to the public, except when the General

,L.. Assembly provides otherwise with regard to property trans-

actions or appointments to or removal from public office."

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That doesn't answer my question.

MR. CLARKE: The appointment to or removal from

public office was intended to mean personnel matters.

MR. BOLTON: I'm just suggesting something here, if

you're going to put that in the Constitution, we had a case

why don't you make it a self-executing provision in the

Constitution where you won't have to go pass a law after you

adopt this.

PACE 184

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think the intention of the Articl~
I
I
Committee was that you wanted to write into the Constitution I

open meetings for the General Assembly.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I understand that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And then what the Attorney

() General is saying now is if you're going to do that, why don't i

you just take the statute that now has these and make this

self-executing without having to come back and pass another
II
statute in the legislature.

MR. BOLTON: You could have a block I take it. This

- is a radical departure from practices of the General Assembly

when I was over there.

-.... _------
14

MR. HARRIS: I bet. MR. BOLTON: And I think if you're going to adopt

lr, ~ this, you would want to put it in there where one House could

" ~ actually thwart the meaning of this amendment, as I see it --
c.
,~~ in other words, I think you ought to put it in the Constitutio~

the right to have a closed meeting when you're considering 19 personnel matters, the right to have a closed meeting when

you're considering property.

:')

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I agree with that.

")
MR. BOLTON: If you're going to say -- if y'all " , authorize us to go buy property at $10,000 and you announce it '

to the world, that's what we're going to have to pay.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think thatts right.

SPEAKER MURPHY:

PAGE 185
--- --~..._.- ---_._------------,
I really don't see any sense in

,
,

...

this being in the Constitution myself, we've got a statute on

the books now. I see no reason at all for this to be in here.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: How would this be, Arthur, to make

it self-executing as Charlie has it, "except when the General

Assembly is considering transactions or appointments to or

removal from public -- property transactions or appointments

to or removal from public office." That would be self-

executing.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Then we're in direct conflict with

the paragraph right before where we determine our own rules

; of procedure. Two paragraphs in direct conflict.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: liThe sessions of the General

Assembly, all committee meetings, and all hearings shall be

open to the public, except when the General Assembly

"

SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I make a motion?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, go ahead.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we strike Paragraph V in

its entirety.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And not have open meetings in

the Constitution?

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right, we've got a statute

on it.

MR. BOLTON: You've taken lottery out of the

Constitution.

PAGE 186

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the way it come out of our

subcommittee.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have no objection, I mean, 4 you've got a statute.

Is there a second?

MR. BOLTON: I'll second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

Is there discussion on it?

(No response.)

1U

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

J4 ,. :;; 1<0'
.! 5 ~I
'",;Yo
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l (,' ~~
c,
1.
~

(Nays. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all in favor raise your hands.
(Votes were cast.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Six. All opposed.
It) I'
(Votes were cast.)

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Six to two. All right, it's

"L l

deleted, six-two.

Vacancies.

MR. CLARKE: Simply provides that when vacancies

occur they're to be filled as provided by this Constitution ori: by law. And I don't believe Mel, you can correct me if Il mi

wrong, there's no specific

yes, sir, Governor?

PAGE 187
~~--~ ------~--~--~1
I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adopting

Paragraph VI?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph

VII.

MR. CLARKE: All right, Paragraph VII simply

provides that there will be no change in the compensation

or allowances prior to the end of the term. I believe that's

about the same as it is presently.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's the same as the present

, language. Is there any objection to adopting Paragraph VII?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

MR. CLARKE: I believe VIII and IX are also the

same as the present Constitution.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to

adopting Paragraphs VIII and~?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You have a slight change in X, go

ahead with X. The Chair hears none and VIII and IX are

adopted. X.

MR. CLARKE: In X, the main change is to extend the

privilege to committee meetings in either house as well as on

the floor of the hosue.

-_._-----_ _ ..... ---

i'Aca~ 188

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Any discussion?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there any objection?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph X is adopted. Paragraph

XI.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph XI is substantially the same.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting XI?

(No response.)

,1

"

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Section V.

l;
z
11 ,,'
o
.'-.

MR. CLARKE: Section V, Paragraph I, the only

\.,

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"\~,;:\at.1,
'i<(~,. ~,)--'").,)>(,/~~'2~'"

~

change I can think of is the fact that the present Constitution !
says that the journal shall be the sole record and this says

"sole official record ll , so it wouldn't be unlawful or un-

1') " constitutional to keep some other record. il:

,~

he

,7.
,

Q

7.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there objection to

1';
Paragraph I?

SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I ask these two Judges a

question?

--"~-'

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Is there anything else we need to
.... :
put in here to help you people in the courts when y'all are

trying to determine what the intent of the General Assembly ist

JUSTICE NICHOLS: No, I don't think of anything you

can put in there because if the language is unambiguous, I

PAGE 189

don't know where you -- it's according to what language you

2 use, if it's ambiguous or it's not ambiguous.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's all I wanted to know, Judge.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to the adoption of

Paragraph I?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph

II.

'f !

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph II, the only change is that

! D the present provision says that the Senate may propose

Ij

.;,;':'
7....
"(;

,
amendments to revenue bills and we thought that was unnecessart,

,j .,. "- it being obvious that they could anyway

";. \ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Yeah. All right, any objection to:

Paragraph II?
r
(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph

III.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraphs III and IV remain unchanged. ,

There may, however, be a necessity for some change corning

from the Code Revision Committee when they deal with the

provisions of the Code.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraphs III

and IV?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, they're adopted. Paragrap~

PAGE 190

V.

MR. CLARKE: V I believe is the same, as is VI.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: V and VI we'll consider, is there

1 any objection to adoption of V and Vi?

SPEAKER MURPHY: We made V more generous, Harold.

i VI, I mean, we made VI more generous.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's VI that you've got the change

in.

MR. CLARKE: You're right.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to explain that change

~ in VI. Wetll reconsider on VI.
{I
MR. CLARKE: The roll call vote when ordered by

~ the presiding officer or one-fifth of the members present or

: ,; ,r, a lesser number if provided by the rules of either house. So <,.:
! '. " either house could set rules calling for a lesser requirement

,

:'
II ~

()

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-,

on a

roll

call

vote

,c,

;';:(';

SPEAKER MURPHY:

That's correct.

, '~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraph VI?

!9

(No response.)

:1 :

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, itts adopted. Paragraph

., l

VII.

.. )
MR. CLARKE: VII has what I take to be a right

)
important change in that you would not under this have the

-+ requirement for the reading of a bill in its entirety on the

.. ~ third day. However if it were ordered by the presiding officer

PAGE 191

or voted by a majority of the members, it could be required.

E',
-

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Clerk won't just read every

3 fifth line at eleven o'clock at night.

.~

MR. CLARKE: Just read the caption as he does on the

.. first two days

(, ,

SPEAKER MURPHY: Or a presiding officer can order

I

it read in its entirety any time or a majority of the members

can order it read at any time.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection

lU to Paragraph VII?
,

7.
!I ,;l'

(No response.)

1
';,i
,~ I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. VIII. MR. CLARKE: VIII is an attempt to do away with

some of the fixing in dealing with local legislation and

provices by law for a procedure to consider local legislation

provided that they must be read at least once and you can't

consider them until the third day following the introduction

and every bill must be voted on. Some way it was thought

there could be a shortening of the procedure perhaps by not

reading the caption on the first two days but having the

passage of those days.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

MR. CLARKE: At the present time, as to Paragraph IX

FACE 192

there is a specific constitutional provision concerning notice i of intention being published. This simply says it will be as provided by law.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Question. I am assuming that staff is going to develop these necessary statutes that we're r-. going to have to that we're eliminating in the Constitution.

MR. HILL: We have not operated on the assumption that we will have. these to go this time. We have the effective

I date of July of '81, so that we can do the statutory work

iU next session.

iI

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Oh, this --

o

MR. HILL: This is such an incredible amount of

changes in the statutes, we --

14

MR. HARRIS: There's no feasible way to get it done

1) ~ by this legislative session, so we put off the effective date

'"::J

": C 'n

.r

"1.

until July 1, of

'81 which would give the 1981 legislative

session the chance to pass the laws.

MR. HILL: In a lot of these cases they are covered

by statute already.

I(J

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well you'd have to have destruct

devices and all that sort of thing too if this didn't pass.

MR. HARRIS: That's right.

MR. HILL: I wanted to point out one change in here that -- now this is in a statute currently, this very language

is in a statute currently, we know that. But the second

193 sentence of this provision is the one that says that no office

to which a person is elected shall be abolished nor the term

of the office shortened during the term for which that person

is elected unless there's a referendum on the question. Now

that's in the Constitution now, it has been omitted in this

draft and it is in the law, but the law could be changed. So

I don't know if you would like that to go back in. That's

something I thought I should specifically point out. That

is in the current provision on advertisement of notice of

intention to introduce local legislation.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't want it in the Constitution.

I.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't think it ought to be in

the Constitution. It's in the law.

SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the reason we left it out,

we didn't think it ought to be either.

1'1R. HILL: Well it is in the law now, so it; s

covered.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't think it ought to be in

the Constitution, Mel. It's late in the day.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you on the advertise-

ment --

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: What time does that ballgame

start?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's go ahead. Point out the

significant things. \le're on Paragraph IX. Was there any

194 objection to Paragraph IX?
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. All right, now point out MR. CLARKE: There is no change in X. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, any objection to adopting Paragraph X?
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. XI. MR. CLARKE: XI provides the same thing, I think, if anything requires a two-thirds vote doesn't mean that it's a waiver of the Governor's signature. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection?
(No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XII. MR. CLARKE: Now getting into the matter of vetoes and the question of overriding vetoes and I really thing -this of course is a very involved thing, but I believe that the one significant factor in the whole thing is that there is a provision that if the Governor does not call for a bill the General Assembly can, by a vote of the majority of each house, send the bill down to him and he would have three days within which to veto it -- he'd have six days in which to veto it I believe and then three days to send an amendment back. At the present time the law is unclear as to whether or not the'

i .\CE 195
General Assembly can send the bill down or whether the Governo~ has to call for it.
MR. HARRIS: Two-thirds, though, not a majority. MR. CLARKE: Two-thirds, excuse me. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me say this, the committee worked long and hard, the Articles Committee, on this thing and talked with me because of the dilution of executiv~ authority on that. There's a question now about sending down a bill and about the Governor vetoing it and we had a constitutional amendment that went to the people this last time about overriding the Governor's veto in a term and it lost handily. We had a lot of other things lost in that too. But what I was getting at is they asked in looking at the vetoes to consider a compromise on something and that is that on that, that they send the bills down, the Governor has six days in which to veto it, the other was on local constitutional amendments. The proposal that on local constitutional amendments that the Governor have the right to veto local constitutional amendments if -- well he can veto one. Presently if you have a local constitutional amendment that really plays havoc as far as general laws are concerned in the state, which some are passed for, there's no way to correct it once the local delegation has passed it as local legislation. I said if you would give us the right to veto the local constitutional amendments then I'd go along with the

PACE 196
six days there and having the right to do this. That's where this came from. I just wanted to explain that background to you.
MR. CLARKE: It was felt by the committee that this could be done without disturbing the balances between the executive and the legislative branches with give and take in each direction.
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, I received a letter from the President of the Association of County Comnlissioners of Georgia
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I've got ten or fifteen more here if you want them.
MR. HARRIS: I've got. a bunch, but this was from the President and I - _. as to the concerns and obj ections by the Association of County COmn1issioners to that change, and I told him that I would convey those to the Select Committee and the Association is opposed to the Governor having the right to veto local constitutional amendments.
One other particular commissioner says that lilt
'r)
seems to me somebody must have had a wild dream to conceive such an idea; however, I cease to be amazed at the things some people will do through desperation or simply to get recognition. II
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's not my proposal. Let me just say this. I'm hopeful that we will have constitutional revision, which we have worked in the past, that will do away

PA{;E

n" .~--

197

with the necessity for having local constitutional amendments

to override general statutes. This is being worked on and

hopefully this won't ever come up.

SPEAKER MURPHY: ' The reason being for giving the

Governor the right to veto these local constitutional

amendments is tax matters. They are absolutely destroying

some of our tax legislation on a statewide level by local

constitutional amendments that there ain't a heck of a lot

we can do about it.

\: l

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: And then too we are hopeful

when we get into the home rule area, that there will be in

some areas additional home rule granted to the local govern--

ment and we won't have to have this.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is what you should do, is

do away with all these local constitutional amendments.

P~PRESENTATIVE SNOW: We won't have to have them at

all.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I just wanted to explain why I

was, you know -- we tried to balance off two concepts
. 'j
MR. BOLTON: Local constitutional amendments are

getting our law in a horrible situation.

SPEAKER MURPHY: They really are.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: We got a lot of them getting into

general law too.

MR. BOLTON: Yeah, they do.

Ii; !:!~':
.I.)

PAGE: 198
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Local constitutional amendments supersede the general law and that's what the problem is.
MR. BOLTON: Sales tax MR. CLARKE: Governor, the committee's feeling, if I sensed it correctly, dealt with two areas; one is sometimes a local constitutional amendment might be local in the sense that it only applied in the local area but the impact of it spilled far out beyond that area, so in effect it dealt with people allover the state or over a large portion of it. Another thing, they felt there were times when a member of the General Assembly might introduce a resolution calling for a local amendments, then find that he did not want it and he has no way to stop it. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's a hot seat too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We have this come up with legislation, I mean, with all -- upon discovering, something can be done, but be that as it may, we'll go on and consider that's not in this, I just wanted to explain it. MR. CLARKE: It's not in (cl but really GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The first one is it just gives the legislature the right to send down a bill on two-thirds and the Governor has six days and then override his veto in the session. It's a major change. I'm just saying that was kind of a swap off as far as power. MR. CLARKE: The only two changes of substance in the

r,.--
,!
veto and overriding section are those two.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay. Is there any objection to

the adoption of that?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Are we adding the veto in it?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is just the one now -- this

does not get into local but I wanted to explain --

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: When are we going to get that?

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve Paragraphs XIII

and XIV.

,I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, XIII and XIV, the

Speaker moved and we can get them both together, is that it?

SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's what we just explained, the

total deal. There's a second. Is there any further dis-

cussion on it?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted, both Paragraphs XIII

and XIV.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Wait, were we adopting XIII

200 and XIV?
SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir. GOVE~~OR BUSBEE: Yes. I'll reconsider if you want. Did you have something on that? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: No, except I sure wish that there was a way that we could get this problem about local constitutional amendments without writing into the Constitution that the Governor can veto a local constitutional amendment. I think we're setting a mighty dangerous precedent there because I know that this Governor wouldn't do it, but -GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Veto a local constitutional amendment? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I hadn't finished my sentence. I know that you wouldn't do something that -- using it in a political fashion but I'm not so sure that other Governors might not use it in a political fashion on down the road as some kind of reprisal against a representative or a local legislative group_ I just wish there were some way that we could -GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well what we're trying to get to is on the horne rule where -- you just tell them they can't pass these local constitutional amendments that override general law in say Upson County or Daugherty County, we're going to be different. But until we get to that point in time, I don't know of any other way to correct the situation. I'm not looking

P.\GE 201

for -- but that's what everybody is looking at now is a local

constitutional amendment that will take a tax base and erode

it and override a general statute.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Legalize paramutuel betting.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: It's the responsibility also of

the respective houses that handle those constitutional -,
amendments to look at the impact that it's going to have and

meet it there before they ever put the monkey on your back.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm not arguing about the

responsibility.

:t

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I just think it's setting a

very dangerous precedent.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well we'll reconsider well you

want to consider the first one first then, I mean

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve XIII.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, there's a motion, is

there objection?

REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You withdrew the other one?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Now in XIV.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve it.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

That's what the Lieutenant Governor is questioning. Is there

any further discussion on that?

(No response.)

PAGE 202

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor, say aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

(Nay. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, it passed. I just said

is there objection on XIII and there was no objection so it's

adopted. This one passed with one dissenting vote.

All right, then you've got XV.
MR. CLARICE: I believe you move now to --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We don't have XV. Section VI.

MR. CLARKE: Section VI, Paragraph I is a broad

grant of power and this is where I had hoped the committee

,t
-

C.f"'.',
jI

would go on record as not only favoring it but expressing an

c'1" .., opinion that this is intended to be an almost absolute grant
:r::
of authority to the General Assembly to act subject only to

the limitations imposed by the Constitution. My reason for

thinking that is it sure would diminish the possibility of

I;" later amendments by doing so. If you have to get into a

whole lot of specificity as to what your authority is, then 1 . there is a requirement from time to time for a lot of

amendments. But really Paragraph I is the same thing that's

in the present Constitution.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, is this where you want to

take the militia out right here?

MR. CLARKE: May I say something about it first?

I
I~
I've got a reason

PAGE 203

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I don't care myself. The

historical background I understood was the reason.

MR. CLARKE: That is not the reason, Your Honor, I

j

think I can give you a couple of other reasons when we get

to it in just a minute. I think you need to act first on

Paragraph I and then we can

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph I is on the general

powers under Section VI. Is there any objection to adoption?

(No response.)

,

ji

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph I is adopted.

MR. CLARKE: Then it was felt that certain powers

had to be specified even though we really would prefer not to

specify any of them. The first one has to do with the

restrictions upon land use and that was an attempt we had

to do that because the local government article gives that

right of zoning to counties and municipalities. If you

don't have this provision, the General Assembly can't act in

that area.

Would you like to take these one at the time?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Unless there's objection, you can

go ahead and explain all of them.

MR. CLARKE: The second one has to do with militia.

The present Constitution has a rather long provision dealing

with militia. This was reduced to the greatest extent that

204
we could. There are two reasons that I felt it needed to stay.
I
in. One is it does provide for a trial by courts-martial and the other is it provides for nonjudicial punishment. In the absence of a constitutional provision, I had serious doubts that the National Guard would be able to do that, and that was my thinking, but I could be wrong.
Number three is really preserving the right of the Department of Transportation to participate in Highway Beautification Programs. There is a saving clause a little further down as well on that.
Number four has to do -- there's a long provision in the present constitution dealing with what happens in the event of a national emergency. We would liked to have left that out, because it-is dealt with constitutionally, except -- or rather statutorily except that there is a provision here for the suspension of all constitutional or legislative rules during such emergency. So the General Assembly we felt needed the right to do that if we had an atomic attack or something of that sort.
Then five deals with the particpation with county and nonprofit organizations for the purpose of encouraging and promoting tourism and this is an attempt to get around the gratuities provision of the Constitution which we'll talk about in a moment and also to state clearly that this is a public purpose.

PAGE 205

(b) is simply a saving clause that deals mainly

with those specific powers that are enumerated in the present

j Constitution and most particularly that one that deals with the

Highway Beautification legislation.

So that takes care of Paragraph II of Section --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph II now, is there any

discussion on Paragraph II?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to the adoption?

(No response.)

,j

GOVEID{OR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on it?

" If not, Paragraph II is adopted.

-

T.

Paragraph m.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph III, there was some concern

" that some General Assembly might attempt to cbridge its own
,; ::-1
,"iJ
ji) :, inherent powers and this is just to prohibit the General

Assembly from making the rock too big to tote.

",

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the

adoption of Paragraph III?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph

IV.

MR. CLARKE: I believe Paragraph IV is virtually the

same as the present law. It just simply says that all laws

shall have uniform operation throughout the state. I believe

PACE 206

this was transferred from Article I. Is that right, Mel?

MR. HILL: That's correct.

MR. CLARKE: And no special law shall be enacted.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to Paragraph IV?

MR. HILL: There's a major change in here about population bills.

MR. CLARKE: Oh, yes, that was (a), I'm getting to

(b).

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: IV(a) is adopted. (b).

.,--,

MR. CLARICE: All right (b), there a major change

with respect to population bills. No population bill could

be enacted which would affect only one municipality or one

county, except you can enact population bills that affect

only those municipalities or counties above a certain

population or below a certain population.

The reason behind this is to try just to avoid population legislation as much as possible.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: It ought to be abolished

totally.

MR. BOLTON: You're leaving room here to provide

for Fulton and to provide for the smallest county.

MR. CLARKE: I think you may very well be correct.

The one concern we had, Arthur, is this, that you need to be

allowed to use population as a basis for some general legislation;

1',\(;1<; 207

for instance, on a salary bill for sheriff as an example,

you use population categories for those things but not for

specific

MR. BOLTON: You could put population in there if

five counties were affected.

MR. CLARKE: So that was the committee's thinking on

that particular area.

MR. BOLTON: Since it's changed and they all --

MR. HILL: The reason too for this, more than and

'J less than provision is because in Article IX there's a i " provision under the grant of authority to cities and counties

that the General Assembly may enact general laws on these

subject areas but only -- they can use population only if ; i it1s above or below a certain population, and so that's the

reason this was written this way, to pattern the provision in

Article IX. The committee working on Article IX, when they

look at that, if they change it then we're going to have to

look at this again and maybe come back and amend it at that

time. That's another reason for this.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right.

MR. CLARKE: This is one we worked on a long time

and it may not be perfect but this was the best the committee

-

could do.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any -- there is

no motion.

208

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: It's better than what we've got. I move we accept it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There's a motion that it be

adopted. Is there a second?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second it.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

Discussion?

(No response.)

i'l
aye.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. (c).

MR. CLARKE: (c) is, I believe, part of the

present Constitution, "No special law relating to the rights

or status of private persons shall be enacted."

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the

adoption of (c)?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph V.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph V is one that deals with

these old corporations which existed during the days when the

General Assembly incorporated people. It says you can't do it

anymore and if any of them were to forfeit their rights, that

PACE 209

they couldn't come back and be forgiven for it. I think

everybody knows what that's all about.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any questions on Paragraph V?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adoption?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted.

VI is gratuities.

"

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph VI was another one that took

:,i up a lot of time and effort on the part of the conuni ttee and

it was drafted in many different ways. The present ConstitutiQn,

of course, prohibits gratuities and then gets into a long

", laundry list of exceptions to the prohibition. The conunittee

: was concerned about the proliferation of amendments to the

1c, Constitution and looked for some means of avoiding that and

,,1~

..",
, I.' ~

at the same time protecting the public till from raids by some

l 'I )' sort of pork barrel type operation.

,

i"

So what was decided upon was that if -- gratuities

are prohibited except -,- to any private person except that if

they are passed by two-thirds majority, two-thirds of the

members of each house, and signed by the Governor ""ithin 30 : ... days after it has been presented to him after each session.

It would have to then be done in the same way at a succeeding

regular session. The thought being that it would be exposed

to the public eye for a full year, the press or whoever else

l'ACE, 210
would have ample opportunity to review it and get at least as much attention as would a constitutional amendment proposed for this purpose.
That was the committee's thinking. There may, again( be a better way to do it. We attempted to even try to define gratuity in such a way to be sure it was a public act for a public purpose. We failed in that effort and this was just the best that we could accomplish.
MR. HARRIS: I think their thinking was that if the Phil Campbell Sweetheart Bill had had to pass the second time, it wouldn't have.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You don't call that a gratuity,

MR. HARRIS: Well, it's not classified as a

gratuity.

SPEAKER MURPHY: The fallacy of this is though,

Mr. Chairman, you may have some worthwhile something that

you're trying to save, but if it's going to take two years to

do it, there ain't no way you're going to be able to do it.

"

MR. CLARKE: Well under the present law though, it's

my understanding, it has to be proposed as a constitutional

amendment and wait till a general election and it might be

more than that period.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Don't these things arise from the

fact of sovereign immunity?

PAGE 211

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, sir, you have something like

...

this; you want to give old folks -- I shouldn't say old

folks, but people over so many years of age scholarships or

, reduced scholarships over at the University of Georgia or you

want to do something for blind persons or you want to -() this type group and that has been held to be a gratuity -, ., I have a concern --
MR. BOLTON: The way this got in the Constitution was

'} because of --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think a gratuities section is
..<'.
: 1 most important. I have one question though right here. I

don't know of any better way to address it than you have done,
:. 7:
:~: except I'm concerned the way you have it here that you could
v.
give this to a corporation, a gratuity to a corporation without

15 going through two sessions or to anything other than an

individual.

i'7 ,.,

MR. HILL: Private person was meant to encompass a

corporation.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well maybe so.

MR. HILL: That was the thought. MR. TIDWELL: It seems to me if you say private
).
person you just highlight the fact that it is not a corporation. MR. CLARKE: To my understanding, the various cases
that deal with the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, they all said no person and it was held a long

PAGE 212 time ago that person encompasses a corporation. It may be

that you want to be more specific.

MR. TIDWELL: When you say private person

MR. CLARKE: You might say private person or

corporation.

MR. TIDWELL: What about governments, local

governments?

MR. CLARKE: Well I think the feeling was that you

would not have a prohibition as far as local governments but

that's up to the committee.

MR. HARRIS: The old language was any person,

corporation or association. That may be better to put that

language in.

MR. CLARKE: That may be better.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I like that old language.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I like the old language much

better.

SPEAKER MURPHY: Change the words "private persons" t) to "any person, corporation or association".

21 right.

MR. HARRIS: Any person, corporation or association,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to changing

that to go back to the old Constitution as far as the

definition of

MR. BOLTON: If you want to adopt it, please do.

PAGE 213

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That amendment is adopted. Now

on the --

SPEAKER MURPHY: He put "person, corporation or

~ association"?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Person, corporation or association.

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: WeTe putting it back like

'7

it was?

MR. HARRIS: Just that language.

')

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That would include corporations

and associations along with persons and require all of them

iI "

to have two successive legislatures.

,"

l,

'..>

All right, is there objection to Paragraph VI as

,~; amended.

MR. BOLTON: I object to it.

i ) .~,

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move it.

"

,

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, there has been a

,.:J

'1

motion made and there's an objection. Is there any further

discussion?

, I)
(No response.)

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor of Paragraph VI

as amended say aye.

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.
'1
(Nays. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted with two dissents.

All right, go ahead, Harold.

PACE 214

MR. CLARKE: Paragraph VII deals with impeachment.

It specifically says which officers are involved and deals

with executive and judicial officers of the state.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Removes the legislature.

MR. CLARKE: Removes the legislature and removes

any doubt as to whether or not local officers are involved.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the

adoption of Paragraph I?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph

II.
,.

MR. CLARKE: Paragraphs II and III contain no

J

substantial change.

1'i .>-,
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":'1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection to the adoption of Paragraphs II and III?
(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, they're adopted.

All right, Section VIII.

MR. CLARKE: Section VIII is a considerable

reduction in words. The present Constitution has a long

provision to regulate insurance business. We found that

those same provisions are also statutory and so this was an
.. j
attempt just to say that the General Assembly has the right

to do all this by statute without putting all of it in, in

such detail.

PAGE 215

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: So move.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made, is there a

<1 second?

JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second it.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is there a necessity for

Paragraph II?

MR. CLARKE: That was put in at the request of the

,) Comptroller General and that's the reason it's there.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Paragraph I, is there

!, '~'., objection?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph II.

SPEAKER MURPHY: You know, really there ain't no

j', ':> sense in Paragraph II. There ain't no sense in it.

:'

.6

~~,
1-,:

",

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Sure ain't

MR. CLARKE: lim not going to argue that, Mr.

Speaker.

](1

SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we delete Paragraph II.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I second it.

,i

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded

that Paragraph II be deleted. Is there any discussion?

.:~3

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say

aye.

PAGE 216

(Ayes. )

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Deleted.

MR. CLARKE: Section IX is the appropriations

section. A considerable amount of time was spent in making

some editorial changes and other redrafting of that section,

but later we determined that perhaps it would be best left as

is since it had been thoroughly interpreted by the Attorney

() General's Office and in many instances by the courts and

since --
o
~,
-
" same?

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

Aren't Paragraph I and II the

MR. CLARKE: The whole thing is the same, word for

h word.

','

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Section IX, Appropriations, is

" all the same?

MR. CLARKE: The same.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to just treating tha~
,I
section as a whole?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the

adoption of Section IX in its entirety?

MR. HILL: It has one addition.

MR. CLARKE: Oh, excuse me, what is that?

['AGE 217 MR. HILL: Workmens' Compensation Trust Fund.

MR. CLARKE: Oh, yeah, we picked that up out of

Article

MR. HILL: Insurance Regulation.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's just a shift though, it's

(i not a change in the Constitution, it's just a shift.

Any objectiDn?

(No response.)

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Section IX in its

entirety is adopted.

All right.

MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, that's it.
;'\,.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I want to say we appreciate the

1t work and effort y'all put into it, Harold.

MR. CLARKE: Thank you.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We had one question we postponed

until Charlie could go check on it. If we can do that, we

can --

MR. CLARKE: On the President Pro Tern, etc.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Charlie?

21

MR. TIDWELL: If found the draft as it came out of

the sUbcommittee. I thought that it had made some provision

that was different from that contained, but it is not except

for the provision that it says that the President Pro Tern

will succeed to the Presidency when the President succeeds to

PAGE 218

the executive power. I had to go back to -- Mr. Speaker and

Ham, if he's still here, I think if I recall, and Harold, that you felt that this language was sufficient to give him the compensation the same as the Speaker Pro Tern, and the President Pro Tem would receive the compensation of the President.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It won't do that; Charlie. You can do it by statute.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Do what by statute.

MR. HARRIS: You've got to do it by statute. Say

I, that the President Pro Tem, if he succeeds to the Office of

I,
!'-

President, shall receive the same emoluments. You know, it's simple.
SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You've got to pass it through the House.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: It's not prohibitive.

I,

SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, come on, Senator. You know

I, we'll pass it through the House. My Lord, don't judge us by

your body.

! .J

(Laughter. )

"~ ,

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It has already been through there

':1 one time. Let me see that language that's in the present

Constitution. We spent a good long while on this and finally

got it passed through both houses and I don't think we should

have to -- I don't want to eliminate anything in this that

we've got to replace by statute.

t
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to make a motion on what

you're talking about?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well, you see, you rewrote this

'\ whole thing. I make a motion that we adopt Paragraph I of

Section IV as it now stands. You're going to have to edit it

into this.

MR. HILL: The committee really felt when they

looked at that paragraph that there was so much in there that

could be handled by statute, and that was the reason they

1'.1 carne up with the shortened version
.,

,l

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Oh, I agree.

,I

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That whole thing is -- he's made

-

;1, :.,.:.:,.", . ...;
\(":~.:.)

a motion but that would pick up that whole thing in there,

,/ i,

,'. you know.

SPEAKER MURPHY: What is he saying?

J 6 .~
"<,',.1

GOVERNOR BUSBEE:

'~ no second.

There's been a motion there but

....

MR. HILL: It says that in the event the President

SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me see if I can't fix it for

him, Governor.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, in the existing

Constitution you have a provision that when a President Pro

Tern becomes the President of the Senate as provided in this

paragraph, such person shall receive the same compensation and

allowances as the Speaker of the House of Representatives.

PACI~ 220

SPEAKER MURPHY: I've got no problem with that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's in the existing Constitutio*. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's what I said. I want to keep it. This don't have it in there. SPEAKER MURPHY: "The President Pro Tern shall become President in case of the death, resignation or permanent disability of the President and shall receive the same

compensation "

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The same thing should apply to

the Speaker Pro Tern.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That is provided now because he

, ~,

1- becomes Speaker, so that's taken care of.

All right, now is there any objection to adding this

language here that in the event the President Pro Tern becomes

the President -- no, the General Assembly shall provide by

law all right, "When a President Pro Tern becomes President

of the Senate as provided in this paragraph, such person shall,

receive the same comepnsation and allowances as the Speaker

.j
of the House of Representatives. The provisions of this .'I} paragraph shall become "

SPEAKER MURPHY: You don't need that. I've got no

objection to that.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adding that

and letting the draft committee put it in? SPEAKER MURPHY: I've got no objection to it.

221

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, so amended.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You understand why I want it in.
'-
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted.

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It'd take two arms and a leg to

get it in there a year from now.

MR. CLARKE: One thing I neglected to mention and I

feel I probably ought to mention, there are two paragraphs

:' that we left out of the present Constitution that we thought

were not necessary because of the inherent power of the General

Assembly, one dealing with the right of eminent domain. It

i I is also included in the Bill of Rights. And the other being

police power. We thought the committee ought to know that.

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well I think you've done a 14 ;') good job.

SPEAKER MURPHY: I think we did an excellent job.

(:

REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Did you work on this one?

SPEAKER MURPHY: I sure did, hard.

MR. BOLTON: Compared to your predecessors in that

chair, you came out relatively unscathed.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'll tell you what I'd like to do.

We've gone over this and I appreciate everybody staying so late

but I kind of feel like what we need to do is let this be

drafted and let's meet again to make sure that we give final

approval to it. Is that all right?

On Articles X and II, the ones that were adopted

J) ,':, (' 'i\
~ ...... '- I.'

222

before, can we bring that up at our next meeting?

SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Sure, that's fine.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There's not any major change.

MR. BOLTON: Let's decide when we're going to meet,

Governor.

JUSTICE NICHOLS: Let me ask you something, you

wanted me -- I've got some notations made on this eminent

:, domain business. I don't think it would be proper for me to

suggest anything but I'll be glad to give the draft that I

have with some red pencil marks --

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If you would, I'd appreciate it,

Judge.

't ,~,)

oJ

Is there any preference for another meeting date?

MR. TIDWELL: I don't think we can decide now

because we don't know when they'll get it ready.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, we'll be in touch with

you.

(Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at

6:20 p.m.)

C E R T I F I CAT E

223

~.

... -~

~-

_.~!

.\

I, Peggy J. Warren, CVR-CM, CCR No. A-171, do

hereby certify that the foregoing 222 pages of transcript

represent a true and accurate record of the events which

transpored at the time and place set out above.

1)
\\ "
J)

INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision
Select Committee Meeting Held on Dec. 17, 1979

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 12-17-79

Proceedings. pp. 3- 9

PREAMBLE: "

and of the family . . " added. pp. 9-11

ARTICLE I: BILL OF RIGHTS

SECTION I: RIGHTS OF PERSONS

Paragraphs 'I: Life, liberty, and property, and

II: Protection to person and property; equal protection. (Era features here). pp. 11-21, 39-41

Paragraph III: Freedom of conscience. p. 22

Paragraph IV: Religious opinions; freedom of religion. pp. 22-23

Paragraph V: Freedom of speech and the press guaranteed. pp. 23-24

Paragraph VI: Libel. pp. 21-22, 24-25

Paragraph VII: Citizens, protection of. p. 25

Paragraph VIII: Arms, right to keep and bear. p. 25

Paragraph IX: Right to assemble and petition. pp. 25-26

Paragraph X: Bill of attainder; ex post facto laws; and retroactive laws. p. 26

Paragraph XII: Right to the courts. pp. 26-27

Paragraph XIII: Searches; sizures; and warrants. p. 27

Paragraph XIV: Benefit of counsel; accusation; list of witnesses; compulsory process. p. 28

Paragraph XV: Habeas corpus. pp. 28-30

Paragraph XVI: Self-incrimination. pp. 30-31

Paragraph XVIII: Jeopardy of life or liberty more than once forbidden. p. 31

Paragraph XIX: Treason. pp. 31-32

Paragraph XX: Conviction, effect of. p. 32

Paragraph XXI: Banishment and whipping as punishment for crime. p. 32

Paragraph XXII: Involuntary servitude. pp. 32-33

Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 2

Paragraph XXIII: Imprisonment for debt. p. 33 Paragraph XXIV: Costs. p. 33 Paragraph XXV: Status of the citizen. p. 33 Paragraph XXVI: Exemptions from levy and sale. pp. 33-37 Paragraph XXVII: Spouse's separate property. pp. 37-38 Paragraph XXVIII: Enumeration of rights not denial of others.

p. 38

SECTION II: ORIGIN AND STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT

Paragraph I: Origin and foundation of government. p. 38

Paragraph II: Object of government. pp. 38-39

Paragraph III: Separation of legislative, judicial, and executive powers. p. 41

Paragraph IV: Contempts. pp. 41-42

Paragraph V: What acts void. p. 42

Paragraph VI: Superiority of civil authority. pp. 42-46

Paragraph VII: Separation of church and state. pp. 46-63

Paragraph VIII: Lotteries. pp. 64-66

NOTE:

All of the 1976 Constitutional provisions for lobbying, fraud, and concealment of property dropped as recommended by Article committee. pp. 64-66

SECTION III: GENERAL PROVISIONS
Paragraphs I: Eminent domain, and
II: Private ways. pp. 66-76
Article II, Section II, Paragraph IV: Recall of public officials holding elective office - transferred from Article I, Section IV (1976 Constitution). pp. 76-77
Adoption of Article I, less Section III. pp. 77-78

Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 3

ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH SECTION I: LEGISLATIVE POWER Paragraph I: Power vested in General Assembly.

pp. 153-154

SECTION II: COMPOSITION OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY Paragraph I: Senate and House of Representatives. pp. 154-157 Paragraph II: Apportionment of General Assembly. p. 157 Paragraph III: Qualifications of memb~rs of General Assembly.
pp. 157-166 Paragraph IV: Disqualifications. pp. 160, 166-169 Paragraph V: Election and term of members. p. 169

SECTION III: OFFICERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
Paragraph I: President and President Pro Tempore of the Senate. pp. 169-175, 217-221
Paragr~ph II: Speaker and Speaker Pro Tempore of the House of Representatives. pp. 175-177

SECTION IV: ORGANIZATION AND PROCEDURE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY Paragraph I: Meeting, time limit, and adjournment. pp. 178-182 Paragraph II: Oath of members. p. 182 Paragraph III: Quorum. p. 182 Paragraph IV: Rules of procedure; employees; interim committees.
pp. 182-183 Paragraph V: Vacancies. pp. 186-187 Paragraph VI: Salaries. p. 187 Paragraph VII: Election and returns; disorderly conduct. p. 187 Paragraph VIII: Contempts, how punished. p. 187 Paragraph IX: Privilege of members. pp. 187-188

Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79
Page 4
Paragraph X: Election by either house. p. 188 Paragraph XI: Open meetings. pp. 183-186
SECTION V: ENACTMENT OF LAWS Paragraph I: Journals and laws. pp. 188-189 Paragraph II: Bills for revenue. p. 189 Paragraph III: One subject matter expressed. p. 189 Paragraph IV: Statutes and sections of code, how amended. p. 189 Paragraph V: Majority of members to pass bill. p. 190 Paragraph VI: When roll-call vote taken. p. 190 Paragraph VII: Reading of general bills. pp. 190-191 Paragraph VIII: Procedure for considering local legislation. p. 191 Paragraph IX: Advertisement of notice to introduce local legislation.
pp. 191-194 Paragraph X: Acts signed. p. 194 Paragraph XI: Signature of Governor. p. 194 Paragraph XII: Rejected bills. p. 199 Paragraph XIII: Approval, veto, and override of veto of bills and
resolutions. pp. 194-201 Paragraph XIV: Jointly sponsored bills and resolutions. p. 199
SECTION VI: EXERCISE OF POWERS Paragraph I: General Powers. pp. 202-203 Paragraph II: Specific powers. pp. 203-205 Paragraph III: Powers not to be abridged. p. 205 Paragraph IV: Limitations on special legislation. pp. 205-208 Paragraph V: Specific limitations. pp. 208-209 Paragraph VI: Gratuities. pp. 209-213

Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 5
SECTION VII: IMPEACHMENTS Paragraph I: Power to impeach. p. 214 Paragraph II: Trial of impeachments. p. 214 Paragraph III: Judgements tn impeachment. p. 214
SECTION VIII: INSURANCE REGULATION Paragraph I: Regulation of insurance. pp. 214-215 Paragraph II: Issuance of licenses. pp. 215-216
SECTION IX: APPROPRIATIONS Paragraphs I-VII: Adoption of. pp. 216-217
ARTICLE IV: CONSTITUTIONAL BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS SECTION I: PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Paragraph I: Public Service Commission. pp. 124-126
SECTION II: STATE BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES Paragraph I: State Board of Pardons and Paroles. pp. 126-128 Paragraph lICe): Powers and authority. pp. 80, 128-135, 146-151
SECTION III: STATE PERSONNEL BOARD Paragraph I: State Personnel Board. pp. 135-136 Paragraph II: Veterans preference. pp. 136-137
SECTION IV: STATE TRANSPORTATION BOARD Paragraph I: State Transportation Board; commissioner. pp. 137-143

Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 6

SECTION V: VETERANS SERVICE BOARD Paragraph I: Veterans Service Board; commissioner. pp. 143-145

SECTION VI: BOARD OF NATURAL RESOURCES Paragraph I: Board of Natural Resources.

pp. 145-146

ARTICLE V: EXECUTIVE BRANCH SECTION I: ELECTION OF GOVERNOR AND LT. GOVERNOR Paragraph I: Governor; term of office; compensation and allowances.
pp. 80, 106-107 Paragraph II: Election for Governor. p. 107 Paragraph III: Lieutenant Governor. pp. 80-106 Paragraph IV: Qualifications of Governor and Lieutenant Governor. p. 106

SECTION II: DUTIES AND POWERS OF GOVERNOR Paragraph IV: Veto power. p. 123

SECTION III: OTHER ELECTED EXECUTIVE OFFICERS Paragraph I: Other executive officers, how elected. pp. 107-120

SECTION IV: DISABILITY OF EXECUTIVE OFFICERS
Paragraph I: "Elected constitutional executive officer", how defined. pp. 81, 118-120
Paragraph II: Procedure for determining disability. pp. 118-120
Paragraph III: Effect of determination of disability. p. 81

ARTICLE VI: JUDICIAL BRANCH SECTION VIII: DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.

pp. 121-123

SELECT COI*lITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION STATE OF GEORGIA
The transcript of the proceedings heard before 'rEB HONORABLE GEORGE BUSBEE, Committee Chairman, cOnllnencing at approximately 9:00 o'clock a.m., \'leanesday, January 9, 1980, in Roor.! 133, State Capitol Building, Atlanta, Georgia.

-000-

I

_ _ ._~ .. _ .

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i

BRANDENBUH.G & HASTY
SClEl\:IIHC REPORTING 3715 COLUNL>\L TRAIL, DOUGLASVILLE, CI~ORCIAWU5
942-04X2 ()EPOSITIUN~) . i\RI\ITRt\ lIONS - CONVI:NTIOI\JS - C:ONFERENC\:"

2
GOVEHNOR GEORGE BUSBEE, Chairman
LT. GOVIm-NOE :6ELL HILLER SPLA1~En. OF 'I'llE HOUSE THOHAS R. HURPHY CHIEF ,JUSTICE H.E. NICHOLS ClI IEF JUDGE DRASvlELL D. DEEN, JR. A'r'rORNEY GENER2\L ARTHUR K. DOLTON
JUDGE HARCUS B. CALHOUN
SENATOR l\L llOLLOVIAY IlliPRESEtJ'l'ATIVE JACK CONNELL SEi~A'I'OR HOWARD 'I'. OVERBY n.EPRESEN'rATIVE HAYUE SNOI'1, JR.
Also Participating: HR. HOBIN ilAHRIS NE. HL:LVIlJ HILL
MR. iIl\I\VL:Y FINDLEY HE. CHARLES Tlm'H:;LL

In the interest of time I think the others are going to join us, and I call the meeting to order. All right. Mr. Hill, will you call the roll?
MR. HILL: Gov. Busbee? GOV. BUSBEE: Here. NH. HILL: Mr. Miller? HR. HILLER: Here. HR. HILL: Hr. Murphy? (No response) MR. HILL: Hr. Nichols'? JUDGE NICHOLS: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Deen? JUDGE DEEN: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Bolton? MR. DOLTON: Here. HR. HILL: Hr. Calhoun? JUDGE CALHOUN: Here. MR. HILL: Hr. Holloway? SEN. HOLLOHAY: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Connell? REP. CONNELL: Here. HE. HILL: Sen. Overby? (No response) !'JR. HILL: Mr. Snow?

4 REP. SNOH; Here. !.1H. III LL: ~1r. Overby and r1r. Murphy are not here. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. You were mailed copies of
the previous meeting. I entertain a motion on it. SEN. HOLLQ{.-vAY: So moved. GOV. BUSBEE: A motion is made that the minutes of
the last meeting be approved. Is there a second? REP. SNOW: Second. GOV. BUSBBE: Any discussion? If not, all those in
favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposeu? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: They're adopted. On the agenda today,
if you recall, we finished Articles I, III, IV, V at the l~st meeting. We still have remaining for initial consideration Articles II and X. If we could go on and perfect those two Articles, then I'll entertain a motion for any reconsiderations we have on the others before continuing with the agenda. So I thought I would do that right after we got through with the
,
eminent domain that we had reserved until this meeting. So with that, we'll take up Article II, and I call
on Attorney General Bolton. MR. BOLTON: I haven't seen the agenda, Governor. HH.. HARRIS: It's in the back of that bac}:;: pocket

5 there.
MR. BOLTON: We made no changes in Article II, if tha t' s \'1ha t you're asking.
COV. BUSBEE: Yes. I think what we have is Article II
MR. BOLTON: But the staff has made some changes in Article II, and I think it would be proper for Jim Pratt, who has been handling this in my office and is in trial court this morning, I think he could tell you the changes that they have made in Article II.
GOV. BUSBEE: I just calIon Mr. Hill. Can't you tell us the changes made?
MR. HILL: Very minor changes were made. Over in Article V there was a provision speaking to the run-off election and the fact that the run-off should be a continuation of the general election and only the persons who are entitled to vote in the general election should be entitled to vote in the run-off, and that provision from Article V was moved to Article II, and it now appears here, and secondly, the provision on recall of local officials which is now in Article I has been moved to Article II. It's really just a shifting of the provisions from Article V into Article II and from Article I into Article II. It's exactly the same language that appears now in those other Articles. So that was the only thing, j~st a technical movement of the provisions.

6
GOV. BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion on that? I"ve had all approved II before.
~ll{. BOLTON: I think I had raised one question. Just give me a moment.
GOV. rlUSBEE: All right. MR. BOLTON: One of the members of my staff raised a question about there's no provision in the Constitution for primary elections. Am I right, Charlie? MR. TIDWELL: That's right. MR. BOLTON: There's no provisions for run-offs as I've discovered to my sorrow one time years ago. Anyway, he brought up -- you might want to look. He brought up the question of when you put run-off elections here and you've got run-offs in primaries, did you want to put anything about that in this provision of the Constitution? MR. HILL: At present, as you say, it's not mentioned, so it's just a policy question I guess as to whether you would like to include that. It would be a simple addition to state that a run-off election in any election shall be a continuation of that election and only the people entitled to vote' shall be. MR. BOLTON: I'd rather, since I don't know exactly whereof I'm speaking at this time, leave it like it is until such time as we're going to present this to the General Assembly, and then I can go back and see, because I don't want to suggest a change until until I find out the ramifications.

7
GOV. BUSBEE: Well,. I would hate to have it mandatory in the Constitution for that, you know, because we have some non-partisan elections.
MR. BOLTON: I just brought it up. We might be thinking about it.
GOV. BUSBEE: All right. So this is merely transferred from another section, and this is Article II as written previously?
HR. HILL: Yes. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there any -- I need a motion first that we adopt the entire Article without going through it, and then after that we'll have discussion. Is there any motion? JUDGE NICHOLS: So moved. REP. SNOW: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is Article II in its entirety be adopted, and the motion has been seconded. NoW, for discussion. Is there any discussion on this? If not, all those in favor say lI aye ." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: Article II is adopted as is. The next will be Article X. Sen. Holloway, this is in the same category as Article II I believe, but are there any staff

8 changes on this?

SEN. HOLLOWAY: Yes, there are, and I'm going to ask

Harvey Findley, if you will, to run through. They are very

minor changes, Mr. Chairman.

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. then for a minute.

Just turn to Article X

MR. FINDLEY: The changes in Article X are all minor.

GOV. BUSBEE: Can you find Article X? It's the last

one in your package, but it doesn't have a heading up there

like the other Articles.

MR. FINDLEY: Most of them mayor may not be

considered substantive. They are of minor substantive nature,

if they are substantive, but I will mention each one.

If you remember from the last submission of Article

X, one of the objections of the Article X Conmittee was to

make unnecessary and repeal all local constitutional amendments

dealing with retirement. Since Article X did not get ratified

in its original submission in 1978, two additional local

constitutional amendments were ratified, one affecting Fulton

County Teachers' Retirement System and another affecting the

Retirement System of the City of Macon. So one of the changes

is to add those two constitutional amendments ratified in 1978

to the repeal section of this proposal to specifically repeal

those two amendments so that there will be no local constitu-

tional amendments in existence on the subject of retirement.

9 In doing that, it was necessary to add a sentence in what appears as Section 4 of the proposal, and that language in Section 4 deals with the local retirement sys~ems of boards of education, in other words, local teacher retirement systems, and there was a sentence added to ratify previous increases in retirement benefits that had been granted under what amounts to the Fulton County Teachers' Retirement System, because the
local constitutional amendment did that. In there, if you repeal that amendment, there would be a serious question as to the legality of the previous increases in retirement benefits that had been offered.
GOV. BUSBEE: Is that line 18, Harvey? MR. FINDLEY: Yes, sir. "Any heretofre existing local Act of the General Assembly which increased the benefits being paid to beneficiaries under any such local retirement system supported in whole or in part by employer contributions paid from county funds is hereby ratified and confirmed." They had passed in 1972 a local Act granting a $15 across the board increase to each beneficiary under that retirement system. It wasn't until 1978 really that arguably they got the legal authority to do that, but that local amendment ratifiea and confirmed that. This document raised a question on that, so this sentence was added to do in fact what the local constitutional amendment did. That's all that change. amounts to.

10 'fhe language -- I worked with the school board lawyer, John Tye Ferguson, in coming up with that sentence. The other changes de,al with the educational student assistance program, which is really section 2 of the Article X itself. Section 1 of Article X deals with the retirement system. GOV. BUSBEE: Harvey, let me interrupt just a minute. Let the record show that we have ,Mr. Overby here and Speaker Murphy is here. Let me bring you up to date on the agenda. We have taken up Article II, which has just been nothing but an editorial change, but we transferred two sections, two sentences I believe. MR. HARRIS: Sections. GOV. BUSBEE: Sections. We are now on Article X, which is one that's already been approved, and these are some changes that have been necessary since we did this two years ago. So Harvey is explaining that. If you'll continue, we'll pick up at that point. MR. FINDLEY: These changes in Section 2 of the proposed Article X, dealing with scholarships and the educational assistance program, were made at the request of Dr. Don Payton, the Executive Director of the State Scholarship Commission, in anticipation of a federal law which is about to be passed that will authorize educational assistance programs for parents of students attending college. The

11 language originally that we had in here was all geared to student assistance. He felt, and I agree, that in order for us to participate in those federal programs when the federal law is passed that we \vould need the authority to provide student assistance, I mean educational assistance to the parents of students. So really the only change in the Section 2 is to rename it. Instead of Retirement Systems and Student Assistance, to rename it Retirement Systems and Educational Assistance, and in several places in the proposal we have simply added "and to parents of students ll in several places so that when this federal law is passed we will have the legal authority under the Constitution to participate in whatever federal program it is that sets up assistance to parents of students attending college.
That's the effect of that change, is to simply add "and to parents of students ll in (a)l, (a)2, (b), and then paragraph 2 in three places, paragraph 3, and simply change IlStudent" to "Educational ll so the reference is to educational assistance.
That's a substantive change, but it was in anticipation of a federal program.
One other change that I forgot to make that I think is considered purely t~chnical, in the matter of home rule, the intention of the Committee in making this proposal in '78 was to grant very broad home rule with the reservation to the

12 General Assembly had the authority by general law to regulate the power, the retirement power given to counties and municipalities by the Constitution itself. In doing that, it was the intention and the proposal provided for by its context granting home rule even on population acts that create individual retirement systems, and some questions arose as to whether or not the meaning.was clear in doing that. I think it was by the context, but to make it abundantly clear that the grant of home rule does cover population acts that do create individual retirement systems, we added the meat of the home rule proposal as found on page 5 and quoted paragraph 16. You have to see the context of this to put in what is so-called amendment 19. We add the 16th paragraph to the so-called amendment 19, which appears in Article IX, and the only thing 'we did there was add a phrase which begins in line 25, "including such systems heretofore created by general laws of local application by population classification."
The proposal as submitted in 1978 did that by the context, because down in the context there is a prohibition against the General Assembly passing laws on any of these mnen&nent 19 powers except general laws, and it specifically eliminates population acts.
GOV. BUSBEE: That's all the changes now that you know of?
MR. FINDLEY: Yes, sir. Oh, the list, as mentioned

13 initially, two additional amenc1ments, those ratified in 1978, are listed to the repeal section of the local constitutional amendment.
GOV. BUSBEE: All right. We have not had a motion on this Article yet. I think before we have any further discussion, I'll entertain a motion for the adoption of Article X in its entirety.
JUDGE DEEN: So moved. GOV. BUSBEE: All right, Judge Deen. Is there a second? SEN. OVERBY: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. All right. Is there any further discussion or question concerning Article X? If not, then all those in favor of the adoption of Article X as Hritten will say "aye." (l\yes) GOV. BUSBEE: And opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's unanimously adopted. That gets II and X out of the way. All right. Now, we had reserved the eminent domain in Article I, and we considered and adopted the remainder of Article I at that time and said we would work on that today. So that will be the next item for consideration. Where did Charlie go? He has a copy. Is Charlie Tidwell out there? Can you see?

14 MR. HENRY: Your Honor, he went this way. I think he's in this office righ here. GOV. BUSBEE: Will you see if he's out there? REP. SNOW: Governor, would it at this time be in order to reconsider our previous action on the preamble to that Article? GOV. BUSBEE: On what? REP. SNOW: Article I. GOV. 13USBEE: Well, what I'm going to do first is we're going to go to eminent domain, which is in Article I, and then we're going to, as I stated at the beginning of the meeting, be open for reconsideration of all Articles. \'Je would have covered everything at that point, and we'll discuss anything we might have there. If you'll look in your kit you have where it has Section III, General Provisions, it should be at the very front of your kit. MR. HARRIS: I think it's in the back in the last little section. GOV. BUSBEE: In the back. It just says, "Section III, General Provisions," and under that "Paragraph I, Eminent Domain." You might be wanting to read this just a minute until I can get Charlie back or somebody from Legislative Counsel's Office might help, Robin or the staff, but in any event"what I think we were talking about in th~ last

15 meeting -- I think I can tell you what the existing law is, and some of you familiar with eminent domain, look, but when Charlie Tidwell gets back, we'll verify this, but looking at your sheet that you have before you, if you will look down in (b) where it says, "When private property is taken or damaged by the State or the counties or municipalities of the State for public road or street purposes, or for public transportation purposes," I think the additional part of that, "or for any other pUblic purposes as determined by the General Assembly" would be something new. This section (b) is for quick taking and is limited now to transportation, and the additional language, "or for any other public purposes as determined by the General Assembly," would be the addi tional language an(l would be a change.
Charlie, didn't you mark that, some of those? MR. TImVELL: Yes. Shall I pass it out? GOV. BUSBEE: Pass it out, and I was trying to let them mark their own sheets, but if you already have one. Charlie, did you have what I just stated concerning Paragraph (b) ? MR. TIDWELL: Yes, sir. GOV. BUSBEE: Is that correct that the way the law now reads for yuick taking is exactly as (b) is written except for the additional words "or for any other public purposes as determined Ly the General Assembly"?

16 MR. TIDWELL: That's right, Governor. If you will look at this, what's being passed around, what is underlined is new language. GOV. BUSBEE: If you would, Charlie, go ahead and explain all the changes from eminent domain as it is now written in the Constitution. MR. TIDWELL: While it might not be a verbatim restatement of what presently is in the Constitution, in my opinion it is SUbstantively the same, except for the indication of changes that you have. In other words, SUbsection (a~ has no substantive change. Subsection (b) does, the substantive change being that underlined language, "or any other pUblic purposes as determined by the General Assembly." That is the change being effected in subsection (b). In subsection (c), the present Constitution says, "The General Assembly may." The change being recommended is that "The General Assembly shall." That's the change. Then subsections (d) and (e) are entirely new langauge that is being inserted in the Constitution, and then in Paragraph II, the words "and adequate," "just and adequate compensation." That is, if you were to delete the underlined language, change "shall" to "may" and delete subparagraphs (d) and (e), you would leave the constitution as it presently exists insofar as eminent domain is concerned. Hel, I think we talked about this, and do you concur

17 that that's the changes?
MR. HILL: Yes. That's exactly right. In the draft of this provision, which you received the first time, there was a provision saying that whenever public property, whenever private property is t~ken for public purposes, then just and adequate compensation should be paid in the time and the manner provided by law, and this is what the Con~ittee had arrived at after some discussion, and we met, Hichael Henry and I met with Marion Gordon of the Attorney General's office, and he was concerned that that original provision that the' ConlIni ttee was suggesting would violate due process, and so we went back and attempted to redraft it and attempted to keep with the present provision, the present due process requirements of what's necessary, but as I pointed out in my memo to you, this Committee has not yet addressed the policy implications of (d) and (e), which are totally new suggestions by that Committee, as well as in (c) to require prepayment against adequate compensation in all cases as opposed to just the quick taking measure that's in there now, but Charlie is correct. If all of these changes that he has indicated on this sheet are made, it will be exactly what we have now.
MR. HARIUS: Were not made. MR. HILL: Were not made. MR. HARRIS: If those changes were not made. GOV. BUSBEE: Let me do this. Let me have someone

18 just move on the adoption of Section III, which is eminent domain, and then it \V'ill be ripe for discussion, and \ve can offer any amendments, but this is the way it is submitted. All right. Does anybouy move on the adoption of Section III?
JUDGE CALHOUN: I so move. GOV. UUSBEE: All right. The motion is made. Is there a second? MR. MURPHY: Is that with (d) and (e) in now? GOV. BUSBEE: Yes. It is just so we can consider it then. This is a report from the SUbcommittee, and that has the relocation expenses, attorney's fees and also to extend quick taking. MR. MURPHY: I'll second the motion. GOV. UUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. All right. Now, it's open for discussion of amendments from that point. Who is first? JUDGE NICHOLS: There's nothing in here about attorney's fees? GOV. BUSBEE: Yes, sir. That will be under (d). We have three things, Judge, as I said that would be substantive changes. One would be (b). We now have quick taking that's limited just to transportation purposes as stated ih the Constitution. This would extend the quick taking for any other public purposes as determined by the General Assembly, and then the section (d) would be for the payment of

19

attorney's fees that you refer to, and (e) would be for the

payment for relocation assistance to anybody whose property

has been condemned. 'rhat would be the major ones.

NR. HARRIS: Hell, it would authorize the General

Assembly to --

GOV. BUSBEE: Correct.

MR. HARRIS:

to make that sort of provision, if

it does not do it itself.

GOV. BUSBEE: It makes it self-executing. That is

correct.

MR. HARRIS: Well, (d) is, but (e) is not.

REP. HURPHY: That's my complaint about (d). I think

(d) ought to be about the General Assembly ought to provide

bylaw for just and adequate compensation to include reasonable

expenses. I don't think we ought to mandate it in the'

Constitution. I think it ought to be left up to the General

Assembly to provide.

SEN. HOLLOWAY: I agree with that.
I
SEN. CONNELL: You're saying the word "shall" should

come out and be "may" in Paragraph (d)?

HR. HARRIS: "Just and adequate compensation may

include reasonable expenses incurred by the condemnee in

determining just and adequate compensation" or "the General

Assembly may provide for a law that just and adequate

compensation."

20 SEN. CONNELL: You want to add those words into it? REP. MURPHY: rrhat's \"hat I think ought to go into it. SEN. OVERBY: Review that, Hr. Speaker, what you have in mind now. REP. MURPHY: In Paragraph (d), instead of saying "Just and adequate compensation shall include reasonable expenses, including attorney's fees," it should say, "The General Assembly may by la\" provide that just and adequate compensation will include reasonable expenses." JUDGE CALHOUN: Mr. Speaker, don't 'you think the General Assembly already has that power? REP. MURPHY: I doubt it, Judge. I don't know. JUDGE CALHOUN: I think the courts imply that in their decisions. MR. HARRIS: They did one time, and they reversed it.

21

him to make profit out of it, but here is somebody's property

that is being condemned that he doesn't want it condemned; he

would like to keep his property, and now we're saying if he has

to vacate his present ,location, I had this brought home to me,

if I can just tell you one instance, gentlemen.

When I was a Superior Court Judge, I have been for

attorney's fees and costs of litigation ever since this

happened to me, and this happened to a lady by the name of King,

that ran a boarding house. She was a widow. She had a good

income, and by necessity they had to condemn her property for

a road. \1ell, they came up and they offered her about half of

what the property was worth. They said, "NOW, you take this.

You won't have to pay any attorney's fees. You get this money

imn~diately. There won't be any court costs. So we suggest

that you do this, take this and you're a lot .better ofL" Now,

she took it. Then they took her property, and she had to go

out then and bUy a piece of property, lost all of her boarders

or people staying with her because she couldn't get in that

locality again, and the tremendous expense, it actually put her

in the alms house. NOW, that's \'1hat I'm saying, is that when

you take somebody' s property

and every case si ts on its own

bottom, but if they ought to be paid, they ought to have the

right to be paid in advance, and the Constitution of the State

says so now. The Federal Constitution says first pay just and

adequate compensation, first being paid.

1

2

')
<-

Now, if you arrive at what that amount is, as they

do in the Highway Act, you could still go in and ask for a

hearing, if the amount assessed is not adequate. You can have

a hearing on it, but under the Special Masters Act, you cannot.

Whatever is paid in, then they can take that money down, but

under the other Act, the title never passes, as the law stands

now in Georgia, until the compensation has been paid.

Now, what I'm saying is I don't see any objection.

Maybe I'm wrong, but to say that "shall first be paid" and

to legislate -- "shall," "shall include reasonable expenses

incurred by the condemnee," whatever they are. If they are

legitimate, they ought to be paid, oughtn't they, Torn?

REP. MURPHY: Judge, I'm in total agreement with

you on what you said, but let me give you an illustration, sir.

JUDGE NICHOLS: All right.

REP. MURPHY: Suppose the Highway Department comes

" in and offers $30,000 for this piece of property, and they go

see some lawyer, and he says, "I think it's worth more than

that," but the jury only give you $20,000, and they've still

got to pay the att9rney's fees, and it ain't right. It ought

to be where the General Assembly could fix it where if they

don't pay adequate compensat{on --

JUDGE NICHOLS: I agree with that.

REP. MURPHY: -- then the Judge can charge the

jury and put it aside.

I'\(;!; 23
JUDGE NICHOLS: You explained i t to me. That's all right. I agree with that.
REP. MURPHY: I've been involved in about as many of these things, and it's made me a good living. I don't deny that, but it ought to be to where if they don't pay you what it's worth, don't offer you what it's worth, then you're entitled to attorney's fees. If they offer you what it's worth, and the jury don't offer you more than that, then they ought not to get attorney's fees. It's that simple in my honest Opinion.
MR. BOLTON: Gentlemen, I want you to know you're talking about a whale of a lot of money. We just had an experience this week. I think I sent a copy to the Lieutenant Governor and the Governor and the Speaker. The federal court in a case that's been going on down there where attorney fees are being asked -- and these attorney fees happen to amount to $753,000 for a case that's been going on for a long time. I mean it's a most unusual case. I'm in the middle. I mean I represent the Highway Department, and we're caught in the middle of this thing. If I was out practicing, maybe I would be for it.
SEN. OVERBY: I'm inclined to agree with that. Imp. MURPHY: Wait just a minute. Wait just a minute, Mr. Attorney General. Is it not your philosophy and your position and your duty that all citizens of Georgia should be adequately protected?

24 MR. BOLTON: Yes, sir. REP. MURPHY: But you're changing your position now. MR. BOLTON: But our court never has said that attorney's fees were part of the compensation, and we are changing the basic law of the land. JUDGE NICHOLS: We said that first by Bowers. MR. BOLTON: Yes, sir, and you changed it. JUDGE NICHOLS: And the court stands four to three now, and every time we have a change on the Court, \ve have a change of policy, which is utterly ridiculous, but I can give you another example of what you're talking about, Tom. I know of one particular case where they absolutely destroyed a person's business. This was a widow I was talking of. 'rhis other one is another case, where they absolutely had to move. They had to rent a place. He finally bought him a place and had to come back and build a building, and as a matter of fact, they condemned his property twice, and the Highway Department pointed out to him the place that they let him go. The first time he said, "Well, I won't even appeal. I'll take what you give me," which he did, and then they put him in another place and said, "Well, don't move any more. Here's a place we're not going to take.'~ \vi thin a year they took that one. Then he had to go out and didn't get a dime for expenses of moving or anything. 'l'hat' s the sort of thing I'm talking about.

25 We can put it in the Constitution or give the Legislature the right to protect that sort of a situation, where if they are entitled to it, they ought to be entitled. I don't care if i t ' s a ~illion dollars or ~wo million. If it's legitimat!, they ought to have it. GOV. BUSBEE: JUdge, let me just bring up one point, and I hate to be put in the position. I have tried many condemnation cases, and maybe I should be cast in that. lot, but I just want to say just to give some balance to what you're saying that the State has been taken advantage of on many occasions. JUDGE NICHOLS: I know they have. GQV. BUSBEE: In many counties by many juries for some local people to where we darn near couldn't even afford to build a highway when they got through with, us, where somebody has paid, you know, like $60 an acre for land and be paid ~50,OOO an acre for it, and I just want to say as part of the modus operandi that's used by some now for the trial of condemnation cases against the State, is after you have had these appraisals made, I'm not sayin9 the State is always right, but if there are those laws, on those occasions it will tell that client, "Let's litigate it. I think Wf{:. can get more. I'm not going to charge you anything unless ~ can get you more, and I'll be paid out of that." That encourages somewhat to litigate, but the lawyer is not in a position to guarantee

26

he's going to get more, so I'm not saying it's anything wrong,

but where the lawyer is going to be paid the attorney's fees

over and above the amount of the appraisal, then it's a pretty
good risk on each occasion of litigating because it's assured

that if you get even what was offered to begin with, if you

get that, then you're going to get attorney's fees.

For instance, you have three appraisers, and you have

~ all three appraisals say of $1,000 an acre, 100 acres,

$100,000. All right. You go litigate. You take those
appraisals that the State is using and what they have offered, and if you put in, the way this thing is written now, if you " put that in, the lawyer is going to get a third of whatever

they set anyway, even though they give what they offered to
begin with, and that's automatic. That would be in effect

automatic attorney's fees, if you wanted to. I'm not saying

a lawyer would ever do that.

SEN. HOLLOWAY: Oh, no.

, '1<

SEN. OVERBY: Certainly not.

REP. MURPHY: I disagree with some of the things

you said.

GOV. BUSBEE~

The wAy it's written right h~re.

REP. MURPHY: I disagree \.,ri th some of 'the things

you're saying on where it's automatic, but I think it should be

fixed that where the Court offers no more than you're offered,

they shouldn't get attorney's fees, and the only way I think

you could do that is leave it to the discretion of the General Assembly to fix it.
GOV. BUSBEE: You admit, don't you, Tom, that what I said is CQrrect if they left it like it is now?
REP. 11URPHY: If they left it like i t is now, you get it. If they paid you less, you would get attorney's fees, whether they paid you less or not.
GOV. BUSBEE: Well, you would automatically get i t in every case, and we couldn't afford it.
REP. SNOW: Well, I don't think we ought to do anything to encourage litigation.
GOV. BUSBEE: No. I know.
,<
REP. SNOW: We're having trouble in my area of the State righ.t nml highways.
SEN. OVERBY: You're still practicing law? REP. SNOW: Well, I'm practicing some, but I'm spending more time trying to help the General Assembly get these right-of-ways and going out and talking to people and getting it, and I'm not getting any compensation for it, and I think there is some responsibility on my part to do that, and I don't mind doing that, and I have made a whole lot of folks mad at me doing that. REP. MURPHY: I still practice law hard, Mr. Snow. REP. SNOW: I don't condemn anybody for doing that. I think it's nice.

28

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not a member of the

COlnrnittee, but if I could address the issue just for a moment,

one of the charges that was given to the Article Committees

was to help make the Constitution a little more flexible, and

it seems to me that the Speaker's motion to leave this as a

matter that the General Assembly can address -- and the General

Assembly sets in many instances the public policy of the

State

then I see no problem, and this accomplishes one of

,those ends, which makes the Constitution more flexible in

this regard, leaving it to the General Assembly, subject to

the Governor's veto powers, to address the issues, should the

occasion arise.
!.
SEN. CONNELL: What you said, Mr. Governor, is it's

easier to change every year in the General Assembly than it

would be to go back and have an amendment to.the Constitution.

So that's what you're saying?

MR. HARRIS: That's right.

MR. DOLTON: I would like to say again and speaking

of the Law Department too, I would lots rather the General

Assembly fix this than the courts and the federal government

over there and a court render an opinion up there and we don't

know what in the hell we're doing with the opinion.

GOV. BUSBEE: Tom if you would make a motion on

your amendment, I think we could discuss it. REP. MURPHY: I will make a motion, Mr. Chairman,

, 29
that Section (d) be amended to read GOV. BUSBEE: Excuse me, Hr. Speaker. lIe had
it written up. See if this is what you're saying. HR. lULL: "The General Assembly may provide by law
for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation."
GOV. BUSBEE: That's your motion? REP. MURPHY: There's no problem with that. GOV. BUSBEE: Is that your motion? JUDGE NICHOLS: Is that "shall" or "may"? GOV. BUS BEE: "May. " JUDGE NICHOLS: Run that by me again. l1R. HILL: "The General Assembly may provide by law for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation." JUDGE NICHOLS: That's all right. MR. BOLTON: They wori't have to now, but they could. REP. MURPHY: It might ought to include, Hr. Chairman, "which' shall include reasonable attorney's fees." That might ought to be in there to avoid any problem with the court determining it. JUDGE NICHOLS: Yes. That would be the first argument coming up, "That didn't include attorney's fees." All expenses in litigation including -- in Bowers it said, "All

30 . expenses of litigation."
REP. MURPHY: Did you hear what he said, Judge? JUDGE NICHOLS: No. REP. MURPHY: He said the damn Attorney General would be the first one to raise that too. JUDGE NICHOLS: Here's one thing, Mr. Speaker, I'm talking about fixing, and I noticed when this first thing came out, the first draft of this. Somehere I got the information or the opinion in paying on the prepayment of just and adequate compensation that the General Assembly may fix the amount to be paid. What I'm getting at is this, that the General Assembly, if you're condemning a $500,000 piece of property, let's don't permit the General Assembly to say by law that they can pay one percent of tllat against the just and adequate compensation
r
prepayment. In other words, if the person has got whatever you determine ought to be paid, if that's the value, that ought to be paid. Do you agree with me?
REP. MURPHY: Yes, I agree. JUDGE NICHOLS: And not one percent, because that would be $10 on a $500,000 piece of property. REP. MURPHY: I agree with you, sir, but I think it ought to be left up to the General Assembly to say it. I don't think we ought to write the technicalities of that in the Constitution. JUDGE NICHOLS: That's what I'm concerned with.

'f,

31

SEN. OVERBY: I think we ought to include the

attorney's fees in the language.

JUDGE NICHOLS: The language ought to be in there.

I agree with you.
\
REP. MURPHY:

Mel is taking care of, that I think now.

GOV. BUSBEE: Let me ask you, Hr. Speaker, if you

are fixing to open up \"i th the reasonable expenses, not just

the attorney's fees, appraisal fees, your relocation expenses

and other things, can you just spell. -- you're trying to get

to attorney's'fees is 'what you're trying to get, but if

relocation and all that is in there too, you're going to open

the barnyard.

REP. NURPHY: Governor, you've been out of the law

practice for six years, and appraisals cost an~.,here from 500

to 1500 to 2,000, talking about the size of the property

you're litigating on. GOV. BUSBEE: Well, do you have any problems with

the way he has written it? i1R. HILL: "Reasonable expenses would include

appraisal fees."

JUDGE NICHOLS: Where does it show what he's

talking about? The State has what they call MAl appraisers,

and God knm'ls! I expect if you check the budget over there

you would find out they're paying them as much as 30 or $40,000

a year to appraise this property. Now, that little widow I

32

was talking about back yonder, she couldn't pay them to come in

as her appraiser to offset or counter what they're saying.

That's what I and what Tom was talking about. You have some

expenses.

REP. MURPHY: Judge, I've been on both sides of

this issue.

JUDGE NICHOLS: I have too.

REP. NURPHY: I have condemned property for the

County, and the last piece I condemned for the County, the jury

", gave them less than I offered. Then I refused to condemn 1-20

for the State. I said, "I'm going to refuse it. I'm going to

"

I,'

b e '.1.
v

on

the

folks

side."

Of course there was a lot more property

-<,, on that side, but I've been on both sides, and all I'm saying
-'
is we ought to fix this law where the General Assembly could

pass a law that says if they offer you $20,000 and you get less

than that, you don't get no expenses, no attorney fees, but

" if they offer you $20,000 and you $30,000, you ought not to

pay the expenses out of it because you're back where you were.

That's all I'm saying.

JUDGE NICHOLS: That's all it means, is to make

them whole. That's what it means. They're not supposed to make

any money out of it.

GOV. BUSBEE: Let me read it again.

SEN. HOLLOWAY: Most of them do, Judge.

JUDGE NICHOLS: Not most of them.

" ~L 33 SEN. HOLLOWAY: Yeah, they do too. REP. SNOW: How many times have you changed your opinion on this? MR. BOLTON: vle had a man in the General Assembly. Governor, who was that man from down there in South Georgia? His son worked in your old law firm there. He used to have a widow women he always talked about. I didn't know the Chief Judge was going to too. JUDGE NICHOLS: Well, mine is on the record that I
referred to. Her name is King, if you want to read it.
GOV. BUSBEE: Let me read again, if I might, the way
they have drafted, Mr. Speaker, and see if this is the sense
of your motion. "The General Assembly may provide by law for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses, including attorney's fees." Is that your m0t:-ion?
REP. MURPHY: Yes, sir. That's my motion. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second to that motion? REP. MURPHY: As a part of just and adequate compensation. GOV. BUSBEE: Yes. REP. HURPHY: That 's my motion. GOV. BUSBEE: "Incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation." REP. HURPHY: That's my motion. JUDGE NICHOLS: All right. I second that motion.

34
JUDGE DEEN: Call the question. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded that Paragraph (d) of -- subparagraph (d) of Paragraph I be changed to read as, "The General Assembly may provide by law for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses, including attorney fees, incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation." The motion has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? If not, all those in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted. All right. Now, I think we need to go back, since we have used severability here and separated these. What on Paragraph (a), SUbparagraph (a), there is no change. Is there an objection to its adoption? If not, on (b) there is a change which was pointed out that quick taking would be extended "or for' any other pUblic purposes as determined by the General Assembly.1I Again, that's discretionary. Is there any objection to the adoption of Paragraph (b)? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph (b) is adopted.
Subparagraph (c): "The General Assembly shall by law required the condemnor to make prepayment against adequate compensation."

35 The change is that the existing Constitution says "may" and this says "shall."
REP. MURPHY: t-'lay I ask a question, sir? GOV.' BUSBEE: All right. REP. .r-1URPHY: Does that law now not require them to make the payment? MR. HILL: The law requires prepayment. In this case, quick taking. GOV. BUSBEE: I think, Tom, it's already in the law for quick taking, but I don't think they have to put it up here as a condition precedent the exercise of the right. Before they take the property they have to do it. REP. MURPHY: In Speci,al f1aster cases when they have the hearing, whatever the Special Master orders, they have to put that into court. GOV. BUSBEE: That's by statute. All of this is by statute. REP. HURPHY: That's all by statute, every condemnation. JUDGE NICHOLS: You're talking about the general law, the Highway 1;\ct, the way they take it without the Special Masters. REP. NURPHY: 'l'hey have to pay it into court when they file it. JUDGE NICHOLS: That's right.

36 GOV. BUSBEE: Tom, what this does though is it's true in that instance because the Legislature says that it's true. REP I1URPHY: What I'm saying, Governor, is I think the law already provides for it. GOV. BUSBEE: Well, if it doesn't, now may I just make a suggestion. I've been cautioned by some lawyers there that it would be disastrous where there is not a Special Master where you don't have the quick taking, that you're going to have to put up compensation even though they don't get the property, but is there any objection to just leaving it to the Legislature again the discretion as it is today? REP. SNo\-v: So moved. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I move that we put "may" instead of "shall." GOV. BUSBEE~ All right. The motion has been made that we leave the word "may" as it presently exists instead of "shall" and give the 'iegislature the authority. Is there a second? REP. SNOW: Second. MR. MILLER: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. Any discussion? If not, all those in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed?

37 (No response)
GOV. BUSBEE: So amended. Is there any objection to the adoption of paragraph (c) as amended? If not, subparagraph (c) is adopted.
(d) has already been acted on. All right. Now, (e) would be for relocation assistance payments as provided by the federal government nmv.
REP. SNOW: Isn't that taken care of in (d)? SEN. HOLLOWAY: I would think so. JUDGE NICijOLS: That ought to be covered" but it would prouably raise the question. Somebody will say it's not covered. REP. MURPHY: I don't think it's covered to me at all myself. JUDGE NICHOLS: I think it ought to remain in there. PP. MURPHY: I do too. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. REP. MURPHY: I move we adopt (e) as it is. HR. BOLTON: If you want to be sure that it's there, I would suggest you leave (e) in there. JUDGE NICHOLS: I second the motion. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded that (e) be left in. Is there any discussion on that? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye~"

38 (Ayes)

GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed?

(NO response)

GOV. BUSBEE: It's in there. All right. Private

ways, Paragraph II, it is added there just and adequate, and

1he new words are "and adequate," and I don't think that's a

material or substantive change though.

JUDGE NICHOLS: Just and adequate.

SEN. HOLLmlAY: Isn't that redundant?

SEN. OVERBY: Just might not always be adequate. It

might not be.

GOV. BUSBEE: That makes a constitutional lawyer.

What do you think, Charlie?

MR. TIDWELL: I think that the Chief Justice

suggested that. That's what we always talk about.

GOV. BUSBEE: It just makes it a little longer.

All right. I entertain a motion on Paragraph II?

JUDGE NICHOLS: I so move adopting it.

"

GOV. oUSBEE: With the new language?

JUDGE NICHOLS: "And adequate."

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there a second?

SEN. OVERBY: Second.

GOV. BUSB~E: Hotion made and seconded. Any

discussion?

(No response)

39 GOV. BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph II is adopted. All right. Paragraph III, Tidewater titles confirmed, there has been no change on that. Is there an objection to its adoption? MR. BOLTON: I move its adoption. REP. l'1URPHY: I have no idea what it does itself. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Let's do this. If there is no objection, let's adopt it, and what we'll do now on Section III, we've gone through each of the paragraphs on eminent domain. We had deferred 'that, so that was a part of Article I. Is there objection to the adoption first of Section III as amended? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, Section III~is adopted. All right. Now then, that goes back to Article I. Is there adoption of Article -REP. HURPHY: Hold it now. Hold it nO\v. GOV. BUSBEE: We're going to reconsider~tion immediately after this. REP. f1URPHY: You've got me a little fast. I've got so many documents I can't keep up with you. Some of this stuff, Governor, I want to make a motion we reconsider. GOV. BUSBEE: We stated right before you aot here that we werE: going to perfect these three Articles, and then \Ie would immediately start at the front Article and reconsiderations.

40
REP. MURPHY: All right, sir. I'm sorry. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Section III of Article I has been adopted, and now I entertain a motion now for the adoption of Article I. JUDGE CALHOUN: So moved. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second? REP. SNOW: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: Motion made and seconded. Any discussion? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted, and nQ\v we'll start with the reconsiderations. Is that correct? MR. TIDWELL: That's right. REP. HURPHY: Governor, if you have got a copy of that thing like we had it before last time, I can't find my copy, before we start making the changes. HR. HILL: I have a copy here. REP. MURPHY: Could I borrow it1 l-Ut. 'nDWELL: Article I, Hr. Speaker: REP. NURPHY: Everything we messed with at the last meeting.

\ \ i!~
41
GOv. BUSBEE: All right. We'll go back. Is there

any desire to reconsider anything in Article I that we adopted?

REP. SNOW: C~vernor-

GOV. BUSBEE: All right.

REP. SNOW: I think I made the motion last time or

at least I seconded the motion relative to the preamble. I

don't have the language in front of me. I think the Speaker

does now, but I would move that we go to the original language

that we had in the preamble.

REP. MURPHY: I've got a copy of what we did

sonlewhere.

JUDGE NICHOLS:
?
the family," didn't we?

And we just put in there "and of

REP. SNOW: And we added "and of the family," but

there was other

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Let me see if I can state

your motion.

REP. SNOW: That's all right. That's fine. It's

Paragraph I.

GOV. BUSBEE: We did make a change in the preamble.

He added "and of the family" on line 7 of the preamble on

page 1 of the final draft of the Committee to Revise Article I.

Do you recall that now?

JUDGE NICHOLS: Yeah.

GOV. BUSBEE: Is that what your motion is?

42

REP. SNOW: Mine is relative to Paragraph I rather than the preamble.

GOV. BUSBEE: I'll go back to the preamble. The

only change we made was "and happiness of the citizen and

of the family." That was the only change made in the preamble.

Okay. There is no motion to reconsider the preamble. So it

will stand as is.

Article I is the Bill of Rights. All right. Now, I

call Mr. Snow.

REP. SNOW: I move that we go to the original

language recommended by the Commission, the McWhorter

",

Committee.

~'

)

GOV. BUSBEE: Which paragraph?

REP. SNOW: Paragraph I.

MR. MILLER: I second.

REP. SNOW: Yes. It would be where it would

read, "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or

property without due process of law, nor be denied the equal

protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of civil

rights or discriminated against in the exercise thereof because

of race, sex, national origin, religion or ancestry."

GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second?

MR. MILLER: I second.

GOV. BUSBEE: The Lieutenant Governor seconds. All

right. Now for discussion, that's on Paragraph I, going back

43 as the Subconuuittee recommended it. Any discussion on that?
JUDGE NICHOLS: I oppose it. I think the Bill of Rights is perfect like it is. I don't think we need to have it added in there. That's all taken care of in the Constitution as is now provided, equal protection in the Executive Clause.
JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Chairman, I didn't mean to int9rrupt. I would like to suggest that we pick up the words "race, sex, nat~onal origin, religion or ancestry" separately because I think I'm with Rep. Snow on all except the word "sex," but I would like to discuss each one separately.
GOV. BUSBEE: Okay. All right. There has been a n~ve. I think your motion is, Judge, that you have a division of the question on these. Is that it?
JUDGE DEEN: That's what I was searching for. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there a substitute motion? REP. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, as everyone is well aware, I've expressed my position many, many times on the Equal Rights Amendment, and I am opposed to it and always have been and always will be, but I'm trying to look at this Constitution, the rewrite of this Constitution in a way, and I mean no disrespect to the Judiciary in what I'm fixing to say here, but I am trying to look at it in a reasonable way to where we can pass it through the House of Representatives and for passage by the people of Georgia. Unless we do something

44

in this regard to put some of this language in, we don't have

a chance of a proverbial snowball in Hades of passing it unless

we put something like this in, and I think there has been too

much hard work gone into rewriting this Constitution and too

much effort, too much time and too much money for us to let some

of our personal feelings destroy whatever chance it has of

being adopted by the people, and that's my feelings about it.

GOV. BUSBEE: Lieutenant Governor?

MR. MILLER: I agree with the Speaker completely,

except in the fact that I support the Equal Rights Amendment,

" but I agree with him.

, .~

GOV. BUSBEE: But you all are somewhat together?

tolR. MILLER: We're together on this, and I

certainly

REP. SNOW: That should be noted.

I,m. IHLLER: I don't think it can be passed.
z
REP. MURPHY: I think both of us are worried about

our positions now.

REP. SNOV'l: I worried nO\lI about whether or not I

can even vote at all.

MR. MILLER: I don't think it can be passed by the

General AsseI~ly, and I don't think it can be passed by the

people of Georgia unless we have this kind of language in here,

and one of the main arguments that I have heard time and time

against the Equal Rights Amendment as it has been submitted to

45
the States is that this is something that ought to be left to the States. This is something we don't want the federal governluent involved in. Well, right here is our chance now to leave it to the States and to write it into our own State Constitution. That's all I'm saying.
GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Any other discussion? REP. SNOW: Let me make a statement rather in support of my motion to return the original language, and I too have opposed consistently, the Equal Rights Amendment. The reason that I moved originally to take this provision out was that I felt that possibly there might be limitations that were being placed on rights by spelling these matters out, but I don't believe that at all. I think and I agree with the Lieutenant Governor on this, that our primary purpose is to try to handle these questions on the State level. I'm leery of what the Equal Rights Amendment might do on a national level, - but on a State level I can see no law that we should ever pass that would not be for equality among all people in the State. GOV. BUSBEE: Judge? JUDGE DEEN: Governor, I think I told Rep. Harris that I need to leave about 11:30, and I thought we were progressing toward that. GOV. BUSBEE: We're going to make it. JUDGE DEEN: Maybe in that area, but I would like to speak in support of Rep. Snow's motion with one exception now,

46

and I'm going to finally vote to leave the word "sex" out,

and I want to explain my position why I would like to leave

that out and put the others in.

The original charter of this State provided that

no rum and no lawyers and no slaves would be brought into

Georgia. So what I'm saying is the original position of the

State was one of no discrimination racially. All right. Of

course I think during the Civil War this State voted not to

secede the first time and finally they did vote to secede. All
,',
right. Having said that, let me first speak on sex, and then

I'll get back to race, national origin, religion and ancestry.

One, the Supreme Court of Georgia has ruled that

biologically and physiologically there is a difference between

the two sexes. I think there is a recent Supreme Court on

that where

'.

JUDGE NICHOLS: We'll take judicial notice of that.

"'

JUDGE DEEN: The attempt to rule that rape laws

under the Constitution was with the idea that there ought to

be a rape law applying to men. The Supreme Court said you :'! can take judicial notice there is a biological difference.

All right. My two ideas of not voting to leave

sex in there goes back to the home, that Colorado and other

states that have absolutely -- federal judges would so hold I

believe and maybe some state judges that absolute equality of

sex could mean that --'we're putting in happiness of the family

47 f
,t'
up in the preamble, but I think we're undermining what's known as the family today with the possibility that absolute no discrimination of sex could be marriages like in Colorado between two of a kind, but of course absolute equality could send them off to war. Now, I'm no~ going to say I'm going to leave sex. I'm going to vote to leave that out because of the biological and physiological difference.
Now, let me get to the word "race." I think we need the word "race ll in our Constitution, and I agree with everything that's been said here, that it's going to take something like this to pass this Constitution. The reason I want to put race back in is when our State was first set up, we had no racial discrimination. That is no slaves were allowed into Georgia. ,- All right. But I want to call your attention that the number one book' in our State universities and in our pUblic schools today is titled, subtitled IIPreservation of the Favored Races. II Now, some of you are aware of the debate going around in our State about the origins, where we come front. The number one book, the most popular book that's forced on our young people state-wide exclusively is IIpreservation of the Favored Races. II 'I'hat's the name of Charles Darwin's book. Most biology teachers are not even familiar with the title, but it's Origin of Species through Natural Selection, or Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life.
How, what 1 1 m saying is you could argue that we

i'

I,

48

have a racist philosophy and an atheistic concept, but I won't

get into that too much of being promulgated in our State, and

I think Georgia should go on record, particularly since we have

that exclusive rnonopoly philosophy forced on our young people

in the guise of science.' It's a religious philosophy, preser-

vation of the favored races. So I think this Committee ought

to go on record saying that we are against racism in this

state, and I think we need that in there.

Now, let me go to ancestry, and no one may agree

with this, but if you argue that you have human ancestry in

this State only, then you are discriminated against. If you

contend that you have animal ancestry in this State in our

'. universities and pUblic schools, then we have books that argue,

that call this science. If you argue that you have exclusive

human ancestry, this is prohibited in our public schools. One

is no more religious than the other, and I think we ought to

go on record in this State saying no discrimination racially

or as to your ancestry. People that say they have only human

ancestry should not be discriminated against by those who

literally and fundamentally believe that they have animal

ancestry. I don't have any objections to anyone who claims

that they have some kind of animal ancestry, but this is forced

on young people today, and I think we ought to go on record

saying that there should be no discrimination based on race and

ancestry, no discrimination on religion.

'j. 49

I

,

All right. Now, let's get to religion just a

minute. Evolutionary fundamentalism is a non-theistic religion

that's being promulgated in our public universities and our

public schools. I would like to elaborate on some of the

homicide and suicide games that are being taught under values

clarification where students are asked who would you tell that

you considered committing suicide; the fallout shelter games where young people are forced to sacrifice and fictitiously kill people, and if you don't believe that, get a copy of

,,...

Values Clarification. It's taught allover Georgia and all

; over America.

I~OW, the reason I would like to support four-fifths

of Rep. Snow's motion is because there is no biological

difference other than color and race; therefore, we should go on record saying that Georgia is not a racist State. We should

go on record saying that we're not going to have any discrimi-

nation among religions, theistic or atheistic. Now, a lot of
people say, "Vvell, atheistic religions, I mean atheism is not

a religion." Madyln Hurray O'Hare has brought her American
Atheistic Church to Georgia. Thursday is her sabbath, and yet
we teach her concept of origins, and we don't teach the concepts

of theists, who are no more religious than the atheists. -I'll.con<;rlude by saying that I think this is probably

the most important thing we can put into the Constitution

of this State, and it's something that Georgia can go on record

f ~,
i.
,~. ,\::",,-//

I'

50

as not being even though we're only teaching preservation of

the favored races, I think we need to counter that by saying

we're not a racist State and we're against racism, and we're

against discrimination on religion, vle're against discrimination

on ancestry and national origin, but if \.,re can \o'lOrk it where

,. I can vote to leave the word "sex" out, I would like to

enthusiastically adopt everything else Rep. Snow has said.

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Mr. Speaker?

"

REP. HURPHY: Mr. Chairman, I vlOuld like to of fer

I ' an amendment to Mr. Snow's motion, and I would offer the

amendment because I think we can eliminate everybody's problem.

I think we can achieve what 've want to to get people to help us

pass this thing, and we could eliminate the Judge's problem,

and we could eliminate Mr. Snow's problem if we'll just put a

" .. period after the \V'ord II thereof ," and that just says nobody

; will be discriminated against for any reason, and that's all

we say. If we don't leave in all these things these folks are

talking about, it just says they'll have equal protection and

they won't be denied equal protection, they ,.,on' t be denied

the Georgia civil rights or discriminated against in the

exercise thereof for any reason, and it just says all persons

have got equal rights; that's all it says. Just put a period

after the word "thereof" and quit right there.

GOV. BUSBEE: I don't see where you're talking of.

SEN. OVERBY: I don't see where you are, Mr.

"\!,!' 51

Speaker.

,.
:~

REP. MURPHY: It would read that "No person shall

be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process

of law, nor be denied the equal protection of the law, nor

be denied the enjoyment of civil rights or discrimination

against in their exercise thereof." That says no person is

going to be discriminated and no person is going to be denied their rights, and it leaves all that other junk out. It gets your civil rights in.
GOV. BUSBEE: No, it doesn't. REP. HURPHY: Yes, it does too. Everybody is a person I think. JUDGE CALHOUN: I second that amendment if it needs one. REP. MURPHY: I think the Judge would take judicial knowledge of that, that everybody is a person. JUDGE NICHOLS: (Nods affirmatively) MR. BOLTON: Depending on how they act at a given moment. JUDGE NICHOLS: Either one, one or the other. HEP. MURPHY: That just says everybody is going to be given equal protection, and nobody can be denied their civil rights and discriminated thereof. JUDGE NICHOLS: I'll go with that, but I don't think it's necessary. I don't think any of this stuff is necessary.

I f 52
I think it's already taken care of in the Constitution. REP. MURPHY: Judge, I agree with you in the judicial
field, but in the political field I would totally disagree with you.
JUDGE NICHOLS: In order to pass the Constitution I will go with that.
JUDGE DEEN: Well, I think we will be accused of dodging the word "race."
REP. MUHPHY: I don't see how they could. I don't see how they could, because everybody is a person, whether they are white, yellow, black, green or purple; they are still a person.
. ~:
REP. SNOW: And we already know they have taken
'.'
,. judicial notice of the fact that they are either male or ~ " female.
REP. MURPHY: That is correct. I'm delighted ~ you're learning something, Mr. Snow.
REP. SNOW: I'm learning a lot. REP. MURPHY: There's hope for you now. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. You've got a motion that you go through the word "thereof" as written and put a period, and the new language would read, "Nor be denied the equal protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of civil rights or discriminated against in the exercise thereof." REP. MURPHY: That's right.

! 1\':.F. 53

amend?

GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second to this motion to

JUDGE CALHOUN: I second.

I

GOV. BUSBEE: Motion made that this amendment be

adopted. will you withdraw your motion? MR. HARRIS: That's a substitute.

JUDGE DEEN: That's an argument. I think I'm going to vote in favor of this motion.
~OV. BUSBEE: All those in favor, say "aye." (Ayes)

GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response)

\ t '''''l~

GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted. That's Paragraph I.

, All right. Is there any other part of Article I that anyone

desires to reconsider at this time?

MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I would point out that the

" Committee to Revise Article I had this language in there about

the equal protection of the laws, and because of that, they

removed a provision in Section II, which has served as our equal protection language in this State. So I am not sure whether you want to omit that Paragraph III, which is in the draft of Section II, Paragraph III, page 6. Wait a second ..:3 Page 5.
GOV. BUSBEE: It's on page 5. What he is speaking of is we have in our existing Constitution the words contained

on page 5 in Section II, Paragraph III, where it provides, "Protection to person and property is the paramount duty of
the government and shall be impartial and complete." That has been in our Constitution for many years. They had left it out because of the language that they have put over here. ~'lhat is the feeling of the Committee on this?
JUDGE CALHOUN: I think it ought to be in. I think it is in.
MR. HILL: It is in now. JUDGE CALHOUN: At a different place
.) l'
MR. HILL: It is in now, yes, but the point is it could be considered redundant in light of the equal protection language in Paragraph I of Section I. At least that's how the Committee to Revise Article I felt.
GOv. BUSBEE: It's in there now, unless somebody !t' 1" desires to leave it out.
REP. SNOW: Let's leave it in there. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Look at page 5, Section II. On page 5, section II, subparagraph III, it's on line 15, Protection the duty of government. SEN. OVERBY: I think we ought to leave it in. REP. SNOW: Let's leave it in. JUDGE NICHOLS: That's the reason I said the other thing was unnecessary. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. There's the point. If

I';

55

nobody moves to take it out, it's in. Is there any other

reconsideration desired on Article I?

REP. MURPHY: Judge, I think that particular

paragraph of our Constitution is a magnificent statement of

nothing.

JUDGE NICHOLS: Of course it is.

REP. MURPHY: Magnificent statement of nothing.

GOV. BUSBEE: We've adopted II. Is there any

reconsideration on II? If not, we'll go to III. Someone

mentioned the gratuity thing in III. Arthur, on the gratuity,

didn't you all have something on leaving the gratuities as it

is?

MR. BOLTON: I think we should leave the gratuity

provision in the Constitution just the way it is.

GOV. BUSBEE: Article III. I'm in Article III now.

REP. SNOW: What page is it?

MR. HARRIS: Page 13.

GOV. BUSBEE: I think a motion, without my reading

it are you moving that we leave the gratuities exactly as

it is today?

MR. BOLTON: Unless somebody has got a better thing.

As it is now.

REP. MURPHY: I move we go back to the Constitution

as we have it now on gratuities.

HR. HARRIS: Does your motion include the existing

56 ten amendments?

REP. MURPH~: Just the original Constitution.

HR. BOLTON: You've got to put the amendments in there though.

\vell --

HR. HARRIS: That provide for $250,000 for an oil

GOV. BUSBEE: I'm going to calIon Charlie Tidwell

;; just for a minute about going back. I know the thrust of the

motion is to put it back like it is, and what comment do you

have on that, Charlie?

...,:" I
<\'\
'. ,r:.,"

MR. TIDWELL: For the benefit of the Select
()
c
Committee members who were not privy to the deliberation of
the Article III Revision, the gratuities section is an often
amended paragraph of the Constitution. It is fruitful grounds
~
'-' ," for the submission of amendments that are not ratified, and t.: :..J. that Subcommittee that dealt with that Article struggled long

and hard to try to come up with an alternative. ~hey came up

with a proposal, and it was rejected, and they went back and

they labored and they tried to corne up with something that was

.'1 acceptable. What was finally accepted is what you see in front

of you, and that is probably a worthy s~ggestion for a change

insofar as the General Assembly is concerned, but it has

ramifications that go beyond just limitations upon the General , I Asserly. By court construction, the present gratuities

section of the Constitution has been determined to also provide

57 I a prohibition on counties and municipalities and local
government school boards so that they are also prohibited by this provision of the Constitution from granting gratuities.
The change that you have before you in my judgment if the courts are called on to say whether that will be extended to local governments, they will not because now you've got a provision that say~ gratuities can be granted if the General Assembly in two successive sessions of the General Assembly shall grant a gratuity or donation for a public purpose. It would be hard for me to see how the court could say that that provision now applies to counties and municipalities, and so what you're doing in effect if you
"
adopt this, you have completely removed any limitation in the
,
Constitution from any prohibition of local governments granting gratuities.
REP. SHOW: Well, that's not desireable at all. JUDGE CALHOUN: Doesn't another provision in the Constitution specify for what public monies can be spent? ~"ouldn't that prohibit it from doing it? !-iK. TIDWELL: I don't think in its entirety it would, Judge. The ramifications of it they say now the powers of counties have been locked, unlocked without having those enumerated purposes, and they say any other purpose that the General Assembly shall provide, that is a public purpose. Whether that would do it or not, I don't know. I'm fearful

that it would.

"

58

REP. SNOW: Can we not lock something into this

where it would cover that without going back to all that language?

MU. TIDWELL: Well, there's a way. There's a good

bit of thought that subscribes to the theory that the gratuity

section has stood in the State as good public policy, and

granted, you have had about nine or ten amendments to it.

GOV. BUSBEE: Let me interrupt just a minute.

'rhey I re asking where the present Constitution is. It's on page

18, Hr. Speaker. You have the two main provisions and then the

exemptions. 'l'hat's Paragraph XII of Article III.

REP. MURPHY: Yes. I have found it, sir.

GOV. BUSBEE: Section 8.

MR. TIDWELL: As you all know', there can be

unbelievable pressures brought to bear for a particular popular

~ cause to grant --

REP. SNOW: Somebody is sick in a municipality. :',) The city could give them the treasury.

,1

MR. TIDNELL: Or to grant veterans' bonuses or any

of these type things.

MR. BOLTON: The only reason Georgia didn't give

away $100 million in 1952 is because of the gratuity provision

of the Georgia Constitution, because I know, because I stood

in the House on the floor and fought it, and I'm very strong

I didn't vote for this thing the other day. I am very strong,

unless somebody has got somehow they can convince me, that we

ought to leave the thing like i t is, and I am going to oppose

it, if you leave it like it is now, because we use this thing

50 times a month over there in the Attorney General's office

telling folks they can't do things.

IlliP. MURPHY: You're going to oppose it if we leave

it like it is in the present Constitution?

MR. dOLTON: No, no.

:1.1

REP. SNOW:

.<" ~ the Speaker is right.
;:-,

Let's go back to the original.

I think

GOV. BUSBEE: Let's see. Those that desire to leave

l,
it like i t is, let me see if I state the motion correctly.

All right. This would be a substitution for Paragraph VI,

which is entitled "Gratuities," and if you strike everything

. in the proposal on gra tui ties --

SEN. OVERBY: Referring to Paragraph VI, Governor?

GOV. BUSBEE: On Paragraph VI, and you would

substitute the existing Paragraph XII of Article III, Section

8 of the Constitution today, and those would be your main

two Article Sections which would be, "Except as provided in

this Constitution, the General Assembly shall not by vote,

resolution or order grant any donation or gratuity in favor of

any person, corporation or association. Secondly, the General

Assembly shall not grant or authorize extra compensation to any

60 public officer, agent or contractor after the services have been rendered or the contract entered into," and it would also include all of the exemptions already passed by the people of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
HR. HARRIS: There are two 9s. GOV. BUSBEE: There are two 9s now. And 9, but we would renumber the last paragraph 9 to make it 9 and 10. That is exactly as is. Okay. Mr. Speaker? REP. MURPHY: The gentleman on my right has called to my attention in Article IX, Paragraph 4 or section 4 of , Paragraph 3, there is a provision in the Constitution there
l'
prohibiting where the General Assembly could not allow counties '--::~~'t~ ~~: and cities to give away stuff in that particular section, but
" my reason for feeling this way about it is I think between now
'".~
] and the General Assembly, we can come up with better language than these exceptions we've got. I think with the help of the Attorney General, we can come up with that, but I think vIe ought to keep in there that we can't give gratuities without the people voting for it. REP. SNOW: I agree with that. JUDGE DEEN: Could I comnlent on that? MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, you could put in Paragraphs land 2 of the present Paragraph XII and have Paragraph (b) on page 14, which by that paragraph carries forward the amendments 3 through 9 and 9 and not have to restate.

"\, ;;, 61
GOV. BUSBEE: You know, I have a problem with that. If we can go on and do what you're moving to do, to put it
,I
exactly as it's written in this book today, then the people know how much you get for oil wells and they know how much you're exempted for various things without having to go to some other instrument and look up general constitutional provisions.
REP. MURPHY: It.'s my expectation, Mr. Harris, to put the best legal minds we have in the House to work to consolidate these things into simpler language to where it can tJe consolidated down and not have to have all these long
c"
phrases and send it back to this Committee, and I assume the Senate will be willing to do that, and I think that language could be consolidated and compressed considerably and leave it like it is to where the Attorney General wouldn't have the problems he did and the General Assembly would not be allowed to give gratuities. I think it puts entirely too much temptation, too much pressure on the General Assembly to give some highly emotional thing, a gratui~y, and I think it would just be. better if we didn't have that temptation.
GOV. BUSBEE: All right. The motion is that on gratuities that it be left as in the existing Constitution, Paragraph XII.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made, and the motion is seconded. Is there any further discussion?

:>,,(,

G2

JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Chairman, someone raised the

question last time we met about the doctrine of sovereign

immunity. As I understand it, now I'm agreeing to put it back

like it was and leave it where the State cannot grant gratuities,

but as I understand the doctrine of sovereign immunity is a court imposed rule, and if the court wanted to abandon that, of course I'm favor of the State, if a State truck runs over

P somebody out there and that's not a gratuity. If the State

abandons the idea that the King can do no wrong, now this would

in no way prohibit the court from doing that later.

GOV. 13USBEE: rl'hat has nothing to do \'li th immunity,

Judge. All right. Is there any further discussion? MR. BOLTON: Hot that the court ought to do it

if you understand.

JUDGE DEEN: Well, that's debateable. MR. BOLTON: You think we're going to need another

legislature. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there any further di-scussion to
II leaving the gratuities as is?

(NO response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye."

(AYes)

GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response)

GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted.

l< G3
:'1
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, the staff has an earlier

I draft of the proposal tllat basically does what you're talking about.

REP. MURPHY: I would like very much to have it.

,I to you.

MR. HARRIS: If you would like to have it furnished

GOV. BUSBEE: Let me just state for the minutes of this meeting if I might, I think it's the sense of the Select

Committee that what we're trying to do is to preserve Paragraphs

1 and 2, which are the prohibitions against gratuities and

then in some way shorten the exemptions, which are the remaining

paragraphs in the existing Constitution, and you say the staff

had already made an attempt to do this?

MR. HILL: (Nods affirmatively)

GOV. BUSBEE: This will be given to the Legislative

Conuni t tee?

MR. HARRIS: Yes.

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there any other
')
reconsideration motions on this Article? Let me go paraqraph

by paragraph now. These are only things that any member of

the Select Committee has mentioned to me that they would like

to reconsider.

PiliP. MURPHY: Is that all we messed up now?

HR. 'l'IDVVELL: I don't know how much we messed up

last time.

64
MR. BOLTON: 'I'ha t '. saIl \ve know about now. HR. HILL: I wanted to clarify one thing where there's some confusion. I went back and checked with the recorder, but I went back and forth, and this is on the duties of the Lieutenant Governor. If we could look at Article V, Paragraph III and make sure that this is what you had agreed to last time. This what appeared to be the agreement of the Committee, that Article V, Paragraph III, the duties of the Lieutenant Governor -JUDGE NICHOLS: What page? MR. HILL: Page 1. Article V, page 1. Is this what the Comnlittee agreed to do? REP. MURPHY: That's what we agreed to. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I tried to make him Speaker of the House, but the Speaker wouldn't bUy that. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there any other questions? Are we through with all reconsiderations then? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: The next thing I would like to ask of the Select Committee is the way t~at this would be presented. We have five. I believe we have Articles I, II, III, IV, V and X now for consideration. How they will be presented to the Legislature. I want to callan Robin aarris at this time concerning that. MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman and members of the

65 Committee, we've got about four options for you to look at insofar as a method to proceed. Each of the Articles can be separately sUbmitted, \vhich as we've drafted them and in trying to align within each respective Article the subject matter that relates to that Article, we have moved certain things from Article I into Article II, from Article III into Article I, from X to III. So we run a risk of having these six Articles travel through different committees in the General Assembly without coordination as to changes that might be put into different Articles, and there's the risk of course of five being ratified and one not being ratified, which means then that to cover all those risks, we have to go back and undo basically everything that's been done and put Articles back where they were when we found them.
The second option would be -- Article III seems to be the one to and from \vhich a substantial number of things have been moved. Hold back on Article III and go with I, II, IV, V and X, but vve "lOuld still have to make some ac1j ustments in I, II, IV, V and X that put us back in the posture we're starting in, and that's without much cohesion in all the Articles.
The third option, possible option, would be to incorporate all six Articles in one resolution and let them travel as a body, having that one resolution incorporating all six Articles introduced simultaneously in the House and Senate,

.1
" L'

66 asking the members of the Select Conuni ttee who are members of the House and Senate and the members \'1ho served on the Article Committees from the House and Senate to serve as sponsors in their respective bodies. That has a potential dra\'1back which is contained in the present Constitution in Article XII, which
states that a proposal for one or more changes vii thin a single Article may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal for one or more changes in a single Article and a related change or related changes in one or more Artic]es may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal for a new Article may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal for a new Article and a related change or related changes in one or more other Articles may be submitted as a single amendment. It doesn't say that a proposal to offer six Articles 'may be submitted as a single amendment.
The practical aspects of having it as a single amendment in traveling through the House and Senate are obvious. Secondly, the benefits that would accrue in having the resulting document ratified as one amendment, having to address only and secure support for the passage of only one amendment would be most beneficial as against going for six. The problem could be solved by offering ~lso in this new one resolution an amendment to Article XII to permit this, which assuming it's ratified in November of next yea~ would solve the potential technical problems.

67 MR. BOLTON: This year. MR. HARRIS: This year. Yeah. We've already had the new year. I'm sorry. But it would leave open between its passage by the General Assembly and its time to be voted on ir. November, it would leave it open to a court challenge by someone to corne in and say, "Hey, you can't do this. II And the fourth alternative is to not submit any of
them, is to hold back on the sUbmission of any until Articles
VI through IX are done, and the fifth alternative would be to propose a totally new Constitution with new revised Articles I through V and X and old Articles VI, VII, VIII and IX, which can be done under the present Article XII. You can submit a whole new Constitution.
NOw, in the p~ocess of doing this, there would be obviously nothing to limit the General Assembly from making whatever changes it wanted to in VI through IX as the document found its way through the General Assembly.
So every alternative has its good points and its drawbacks, and you need to tell us how you would like for us, your staff, to proceed in developing the document that needs to be presented to the General Assembly, hopefully next week.
DOes any of that make sense? GOV. BUSBEE: May I say something on this point? I recognize that we have these problems, that if you ~.'lere to put say these six Articles one right after another, the people

68 in all likelihood would adopt all the Articles, but I don't thin]<. we can hazard the chance that they ,,,ould kill one where you were having a transfer, and this would create disaster. I don't see anything wrong in doing what the Legislature does in legislation all the time where you have ten sections in a bill, in an Act rather. You have ten sections in an Act, and you are going to change Sections I, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10. You go through and strike, amend this Act by striking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 and then restating the whole thing.
Now, this is what we're talking about doing under the fifth option of what he has. If we just have a single amendment that will do exactly what we have done and at the same time in the same document leave the existing Constitution VI, VII, VIII and IX as is, publicly state this, then I think that there can be no chance whatsoever of striking down one and leaving a void in the Constitution, and that's the only intelligent way I see that we can proceed, is under the fifth option as you state. That is that we just draw up one con~titution where people have one document with the understanding we're coming back as a Select Committee and we're going to try and amend sections VI, VII, I mean Articles VI, VII, VIII and IX at the next go-round.
Go ahead, Mr. Speaker. REP. MURPHY: 'l'ha t' s the only solution. The only intelligent solution w'e have is not to take any gamble at all.

69 That's the only way it can be done.
MR. BOLTON: I would rather lose it all than in parts. You would go crazy trying to figure out what you had.
REP. HURPHY: We would be taking a terrible gamble to do it any other way.
GOV. BUSBEE: What is the feeling then? I don't know if we have a motion.
SEN. HOLLO\-vAY: Well GOV. BUSBEE: Al? SEl'l. HOLLOVJi\Y: The reason we recodified the Constitution I was under the opinion was to put germane information under the right Articles so that we could indeed rewI:i te the Constitution Article b~r Article and thereby give the public a r'lore narrOvl choice in their vote. I think that was the reason we did it, wasn't it? GOV. BUSBEE: Yes. That's one of the reasons, yes. SEN. HOLLOWAY: But I don't know' if language could be written that if all six of them don't pass, the others go, but I sure would like to let the pUblic exercise the right to consider Article by Article rather than -- and I thought that was the reason we proceeded that way. GOV. BUSBEE: I think there was a dual purpose, as you pointed out, Sen. Ilollm"ay, is we wanted to have the SUbject matter as best we could, everything on education where whoever revised it, whether it was a Commission or whether

70 it was a Convention, could consider that subject matter. Also, when the people considered it, they wouldn't have the entire Constitution. They would consider it on an Article by Article basis, but I think you can see that there is a very practical problem right now involved, is that we're considering it on an Article by Article basis, and when we further recommend that you switch provisions, we can't take the chance.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: I see that indeed, but what is wrong 'with saying that if Article: XYZ fails, this also fails and' preserve the right to vote by Article is all I'm saying.
REP. HURPHY: Hell, what you have done, Senator, is
if one Article fails, the whole thing fails. It's the same thing.
GOV. BUSBEE: I think you need to do one thing, and let me tell you what that is.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: So what? Then we'll have to get together and figure another way to \vrite the Constitution. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
GOV. BUSBEE: I think if you would put -- and this will make it very clear to the people what we're proposing to do, that if you would put this provision which would be an amendment to Article XII and not just limit it to the Article or to the whole, that if you would say this, this would allow you to come back for the next two years and work on VI, VII, VIII and IX, and the language would read as follows: "A proposal for

71 the ratification of two or more new Articles may be submitted as a single an~ndment. A proposal for the ratification of two or more new Articles Vlith related changes within the Articles or with related changes in one or more Articles may be submitted as a single amendment." 'rhat would extend XII to do ~"hat we're talking about without stating the whole Constitution, but it really is just nothing but a technicality to put VI, VII, VIII and IX in there as you restate a bill \"hen you amend it, but I think we have to include it. I don't think we can leave room for a void if one fails that the other one passes when you're transferring one power from another.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: I agree with you completely, Governor, lut what I am saying is this, if there is any legal way that we can permit the pUblic to vote Article by Article, I think it gives them a much wider choice, and \vhether it wins or loses is the name of the game. If it loses, then we've got to come back down here and figure a way to rewrite the Constitution.
GOV. BUSBEE: Well, I would like to put it on an Article by Article basis if we had accomplished initially ""hat you're talking about, and you're correct. If everything was by subject matter and there was"no transfer of provisions as we found it to be necessary now, you are absolutely correct, but since there is or since there are transfers, many of these transfers, I don't see how we can leave that hanging like that without considering it together.

\I

72

REP. HURPHY: Mr. Chairman?
'~
"'
GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Do you have anything?
SEN. HOLLm'1AY: Are we through?

GOV. BUSBEI~ : Were you through?

SEN. HOLLOWAY: Yes.

GOV. BUSBEE: Yes.

REP. MURPHY: The Senator is imminently correct in

that that is what we started out to do, Article by Article, and

I made speeches allover this State, and I'm not going to back

up on that, but what has happened to us is we have consolidated

things out of one Article into another one and made the

language shorter than either one of them was to start with.

i ....

c- \ve consolidated, and that is something that we did not foresee,

bu t if we do this thing here now, there ain't no \vay \'/e can do

it like you say because if they vote against one, they beat

the whole thing anyhow, but if we do this thing like go Article

by Article and Article I gets defeated, we could be in the

awfullest mess in the world. For instance, if the gratuities

was to be defeated, we would have no protection anywhere on

that thing. It's just a matter of necessity now, and this is

the only way we can do it.

MR. TIDWELL: Al,in explanation of your thrust of

what you said, that's what everybody tried to do.

SEN. HOLLOWAY: I understand that.

MR. TIDWELL: But everybody now that has been

73 struggling with this project for four or five years realizes that there is no way to take the present Constitution and compartmentalize it so that one Article stands by itself. You have to look by necessity at the whole Constitution.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: I understand that. MR. TIDWELL: As one document, particularly Article III, which deals with the powers of the General Assembly, cuts across almost every other Article in the Constitution. There are some Articles that can stand by themselves, but there are others that can't, and that's why we're in the dilemma that '-Ie are today. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I understand that, but you have evidently missed my point. I say is there any way that we can preserve the individual vote, Article by Article, and if one falls, it all falls? GOV. BUSBEE: This does it. SEN. HOLLO\"lAY: No, it doesn't. MR. BOLTON: He's talking about let's vote on each one separately SBN. HOLLm'lAY: Sure.
;;
HR. BOLTON: I think you can do that ler;ally. SEN. HOLLOWAY: Sure. And if one falls, it all ought to fall, but again it gives the people a choice in individual areas. HH. TIDWELL: There's a division of legal thinking

of whether you can do just \'1hat you propose, 1\1. There then you do tie. The Constitution requires separate anendments to be submitted as separate, and then when you start tieing together, there is a question, are ".1 ou then sUbmitting them separately. Some feel, well, you are, and some feel you aren't, and there's not a real good practical solution to this other than to let them all go with one, and the only way to do that is to have'a new Constitution, and that has its drawbacks.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: If there's no way to do it, then
my argument is moot.
GOV. 13USBEE: I think your point is well taken, 1\1, because it is something staff and counsel and all have been working on since we last met, and they've discussed it with me numerous times on every alternative, and this was discussed, but again you don't have a provision in there now
,,
tel where you can consider two of them, and this tying one to the
other is a dual consideration in the. minds of some. It's not
in the minds of some. I just would hesitate to take that chance if we have that sharp a division among people on it, but I do think this, and I don't think it's as to this discussion to where you could accomplish what you're talking about. He definitely need to put in no\'1 what we're reconunenuing to the people. 'fhe provision that Charlie has written, a proposal for the ratification of two or more new Articles may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal

for the ratification of two or more new Articles with related

changes within the Article or with related changes in one or

more other Articles may be submitted as a single amendment.

HR. 'fIDWELL: I have enough here if everybody wants

to look at this.

GOV. BUSBEE: But if you had that, you could do

exactly what you want to do now.

Charlie?

I~P. MURPHY: Where are you going to put that in,

HR. Tlm~ELL: 'l'hat ,wuld go at the end of Paragraph

1 of Article XII.

JUDGE NICHOLS: It's amending XII?

GOV. BUSBEE: Right.

JUDGE NICHOLS: Uhich is necessary in order to do

what you're doing?

HR. Tlmml,L: Right.

JUDGE CALHOUN: Hr. Chairman, in order to bring it

to a head, I move that we proceed and move along the lines

outlined by Mr. Harris in option five and also pr%se this

amendment to the Constitution.

GOV. BUSBEL: All right. Judcre Calhoun has ~oved

we go with option five as outlined with Mr. Harris, and ,ve

amend Article XII as I have just read and as it has been

passed out to you.

REP. SNOh': I second.

76 REP. MURPIiY: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. Is there any discussion? MU. TIDWELL: Governor, this is just a technical change. If that is done, the staff will have to go into the present other Articles that you haven't amended and just make some date changes. GOV. BUSBEE: Right. HR. TImvELL: And technical changes, because ~ve' re going to have a new Constitution, and I think you ought to authorize the staff to do that and make no substantive changEos, but make changes in dates in preservation of present - . substantive provisions. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. SEN. IIOLLOHAY: Hay I address myself to this? I , want to know v.,hat ci1anges they make.
~,.'
?
GOV. BUSBEE: Let me address what Al is talking about.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: I think we ought to be appraised, substantive or not.
GOV. BUSBEE: I'll entertain a motion that I think will protect what you're saying, a motion to authorize the staff to do this work, editorial work, to mail E:ach member of the Select Comm.ittee the corrected revision and that if there is any question or objection by any person on the Select

Conunittee, then we'll call another Committee meeting.

SEU. HOLLm'lAY: Hell, not only a copy of the final

version.

MR. BOLTON: Showing the changes.

SEN. HOLLOI'1AY: ShovTing the changes.

GOV. 13USBEE: Showing the changes.

MR. BOLTON: If it's nothing but an "and" or a

comma, I \lant to see it.

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. That's understood, and I

\lill entertain such a motion.

SEN. HOLLOIvAY: Yes, sir.

GOV. BUSBEE: Second?

MR. BOLTON: I second.

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. A motion has been made

and sec~nded. Any discussion?

(No response)

GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye."

'rhat was a mighty weak "aye." All in favor say "aye."

(Ayes)

II

GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed?

(No response)

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. That's adopted. Then

just point out any changes, if you will, on the face. All

right.

HR. HARRIS: fir. Chairman, the two other things I

78

would like for the Committee to give us permission after the

legislative session is over, to come back to you and submit to

you a list of names of persons who have served on these Article

Committees, not all the Committees, hut persons from those

cornmi ttees as a sort of an overview Committee \.,rhich could then

take the final product as it came out of the General Assembly

and go through it to make certain that no problems have been

created as Q result of changes that might have taken place

while it was in the General Assembly, look at Articles I through

V and X or I, III, IV and V, but that's something that we

would like to have the opportunity to do, is to give you a list

of n~nes of people who have been actively working on these

Articles so that we can have a little oversight afterwards.

1- rrhat's second, and the third thing is would the Committee

consider usiny Mr. Reiner's office to generate a press release

'. f in connection with the work that's been done reflecting the

..;

7

~
'"

reduction

in

size

that's

taken

place

in

the

six

Articles,

the

amount of time that's been expended on it.

Is this something the Committee would consider

allowing to be done?

REP. MURPHY: I would suggest that you have Mr.

Reiner do it and submit a copy to the Senate office and submit

a copy to the House Office, and both offices will send it out

as well as the Governor's office. GOV. BUSBEE: That's fine. It needs to be promulgated

79 in some way.
SEN. HOLLOWAY: That's what beat us two years ago. We didn't do that.
GOV. BUSBEE: Right. Any objection? Do you have another point?
REP. MURPHY: No, that's not \'lhat beat us two years ago.
GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Now, you've heard the recommendation Mr. Harris has made for the staff to do these things. Is there any objection?
(No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, it stands approved. Sen.
;: Holloway? SEN. HOLLOWAY: Now, we're going to present this
one package now as joint bills through the House and Senate? GOV. BUSBEE: This is the next thing we have on
the thing. Mr. Speaker? REP. MURPHY: Senator, I've given that a lot of
thought. I think it ought to be introduced in both Houses
.J
as early in the session as we can. I think both Houses ought to go ahead and take it up. If you pass it over to us, whatever our Cop~ittee comes out with, we'll probably just substitute it for yours, whatever the House does on it, and then the Conference Committee will get together and come back, and that's when the final decision will be made, but hopefully you will

1

80
II pass it on over to us since we're going to have to handle the

budget first.

GOV. BUSBEE: Let me ask you. ~'le' ve got both of you

all here now. Could. it be agreed that whichever one -- I agree

that it ought to be introduced in both Houses, but could we

just agree that rather than having some pride of authorship

there that whichever one -- we've done this on other hills

that we've done this vlith. Hhichever one crosses the hall

first, that will be the number that we go with in conference?

REP. MURPHY: Yes, sir.

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GOV. BUSBEE: Is that all right? MR. MILLER: Sure.

REP. MURPHY: We'll go ahead and have a Subcommittee!

working by~that.t.i.rne. I GOV. BUSBEE:

I understand the purpose.

That would

let both Houses, the House and the Senate, be working on it at

the.same time, but we've gotten down to the point of this

pride of authorship, and we've had this companion type

legislation when it wasn't worked out ahead of time, but this

is agreed to, whichever one passes will urge the conference

committee and the presiding officers will urge the conference

committee to use that as a vehicle. All right?

,

)

ii

Now, any other points any member of the Select

24 Committee would like to bring up? Mr. Harris, do you have

"I';';

anything for usi

.' \

81

MR. HARRIS: I need to see you and the Lieutenant

i Governor and the Speaker for just a minute when we adjourn.

GOV. BUSBEE: All right.

MR. HARRIS: One other minor thing. I would like

you had originally set a timetable for the Committees on VI

through IX for '82. I would like for the Committee to consider

setting a new timetable and ask those Article Committees to

report back by December of '81. NOw, they may not be able to,

but if they can, instead of stretching it out for two years,

get as many as can report by December of '81 so that we can

move fan-lard.

HR. llIIJL: December of '80.

MR. HARRIS: I mean December of '80. Excuse me.

REP. HURPHY: I'd rather have December of '80 myself.

MR. HARRIS: '80 now.

GOV. BUSBEE: What Mr. Harris is recommending is

that we ask the Article Committees to report back by December

of this year.

loiR. HARRIS: This year.

GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there an objection? Is

there a motion? I better get some motions.

SEN. OVERBY: I move.

GOV. BUSBEE: The motion made. Seconded?

JUDGE DEEN: Seconded.

GOV. BUSBEE: Any discussion?

(No response)

\': 82

GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all in favor say "aye."

(Ayes)

GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed?

(NO response)

GOV. BUSBEE: So moved. Is there anything that any

member of the Select Committee has? Now, if not, we stand

adjourned.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter was adjourned.)

-000-

C E R T I FIe ATE

GEORGIA "L., CLARKE COUNTY
l;
I hereby certify that the foregoing transcript was

taken down, as stated in the caption, and the statements and

discussion were reduced to typewriting by me personally; that
<:
< the foregoing pages, I through 82, inclusive, represent a tr~e,

correct and complete transcript of the evidence given upon said

~ '-: hearing.

"

This, the 12th day of January, 1980.

25 :;

DONALD SAMUEL LEMMER (SEAL)

,r . ~~~~il'-" ,t' ';bii1, ":~~'"",:

~' ~(tO;"d~

, M i _ _ ~':\;~"1I'-,~~;''';''''l" , ' , k ' , -

-----------------

INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision
Select Committee Meeting Held on Jan. 9, 1980

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 1-9-80
Proceedings. pp. 3-5
PREAMBLE. pp. 41-42 ARTICLE I: BILL OF RIGHTS SECTION I: RIGHTS OF PERSONS Paragraphs I: Life, liberty, and property, and
II: Protection to person and property; ~qual protection. pp. 42-55 (ERA discussed here)
SECTION III: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraph I: Eminent domain. pp. 14-38 Paragraph II: Private ways. pp. 38-39 Paragraph III: Tidewater titles confirmed. p. 39
ARTICLE II: VOTING AND ELECTIONS SECTION II: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraphs II: Run-off election, and
IV: Recall of public officials holding elective office. pp. 5-9
ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH SECTION VI: EXERCISE OF POWERS Paragraph VI: Gratuities. pp. 55-63 SECTION X: RETIREMENT SYSTEMS. pp. 7-13 ARTICLE V: EXECUTIVE BRANCH SECTION I: ELECTION OF GOVERNOR AND LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR Paragraph III: Lieutenant Governor. p. 64

PAGE 1

2

3

STATE OF GEORGIA

4

SELECT COMMITTEE

5

TO

6

REVISE THE CONSTITUTION OF GEORGIA

7

8

9

10
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18

19

20
21 Office of the Governor, State Capitol,
22 Atlanta, Georgia
23 Monday J June 30 J 1980 10:00 a.m.
24

25

, -- :~.

PRESENT:

;~~:

2

COMMITTEE MEMBERS:

3

GOVERNOR GEORGE BUSBEE

4

LT. GOVERNOR ZELL MILLER

5

THOMAS B. MURPHY

6

HIRAM K. UNDERCOFFER

7

BRASWELL D. DEEN, JR.

8

ARTHUR K. BOLTON

9

AL HOLLOWAY

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20

WAYNE SNOW, Jr. ALSO PRESENT:. FRANK EDWARDS J. ROBIN HARRIS MELVIN B. HILL, JR. ROBERT TIDWELL VICKIE GREENBERG MICHAEL HENRY CYNTHIA NONIDEZ

21

22

23

24

25

PAGE 2

PAGE 3

PRO C E E D I N'G S

2

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I call the meeting to order, and

3 we will have sqmeone mark the attendance.

4

You have been mailed minutes of the previous

5 meeting, and I will enterain a motion.

6

A MEMBER: I move we adopt them.

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made. Seconded?

8

A MEMBER: Seconded.

9

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? If not, the

10 minutes stand approved.

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11 j:
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I call on Mr. Harris now for administrative matters.

~ 12 ~

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, several persons have

@ r i resigned from their respective committees, Mildred Burnett,

! 14 I- Wilson Danial and Anne Crichton, and there has been an ':~"z:
15 ~ indication that one other person will not be able to serve Cl e>:

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16 ~... but we have nothing official

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's on the articles committees?

18

MR. HARRIS: These are on the articles committees.

.~}

19

Woodson Daniel on the local government committee,

20 and was there in his capacity as chairman of a committeeof

21 superior court clerks, and they would like to have Joe Mundy

22 who is the present clerk of the Clayton Superior Court

23 substituted for Mr. Daniel.

24

Mrs. Crichton was a member also of the Article IX

25 Local Government Committee, she was there in her capacity

PAGE 4

as a representative of Georgia Municipal Association. She

"~ :;.;,

2 is no longer mayor of Decatur, and they would like very much

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3 for the Select Committee to consider replacing her with Mr.

4 Bob Knox who is the mayor of Thomson, Georgia, and an attorney

5 Mr. Knox in hopeful anticipation that this would occur has

6 in fact been attending the meetings of the Article IX 7 committee and has been participating in those activities.

8

Mrs. Burnett was not a representative of a particula~

9 organization, she was on the Finance Taxation Article, and

10 the staff is not making any recommendation with respect to

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filling that position since the subcommittees have been at work and any person appointed would be way behind.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: So the Georgia Municipal Association is replacing Anne Crichton, they recommended Bob Knox?
MR. HARRIS: Yes, sir . GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And who is the new .... ?

18

MR. HARRIS: The clerk of the superior court.

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Who is that?

20

MR. HARRIS: Joe Mundy, Clayton County.

21

MR. TIDWELL: He has agreed to serve.

22

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's my understanding now that

23 for any vacancies that we have on article committees we have

24 a special committee to fill the vacancies, and we've not done

25 this, we just bring the entire Select Committee in, 80 I

PAGE 5

will entertain a motion that we fill the two vacancies.

2

A MEMBER: So moved.

3

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's moved Bob Knox and Joe Mundy

4 be appointed. Is there a second?

5

MR. MURPHY: Seconded.

6

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion? Any other

7 nominations?

8

If not, all those in favor say aye;~.

9

(Ayes.)

10

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

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So moved. All right. Go ahead. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Governor, we have an article now that Charlie Hatcher is supposed to be on, he's running for

! 14 Congress, which is the taxation article, arid we really need

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on that thing.

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17 ::i I was talking to some of the committee the other day.

18

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you this. If there's

19 no objection -- I've forgotten, Mel might be able to tell us,

20 or Robin, Charlie or somebody -- there is a provision for 21 filling a vacancy, we don't have to wait until the Select 22 Committee meets again, do we?

23

MR. HARRIS: It's my understanding that the

24 concerted action of the Governor, Speaker and Lieutenant 25 Governor can fill a vacancy.

PAGE 6

MR. TIDWELL: The Attorney General and Chief 2 Justice.

3

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Fine. We can do this by phone.

4

If it would.be suitable, how about checking with

5 Charlie to see what he wants to do, and let's address that.

6

MR. MURPHY: He voltmteered to resign as secretary

7 of Snow's committee where I could fill it with somebody else

8 where they could do the job, and it needs to be done.

9 Charlie would be very cooperative. That's an article that

10

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really needs the full committee. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I doubt that much could be done,
Tom, between now and -- when's the election, August 5th, the primary?
MR. MURPHY: They met last Thursday. Have we got any more meetings set, Mel? They met last-Thursday.
MR. HILL: The full taxation article will be meeting in September.

18

MR. HARRIS: The full committee won't, but the

19 subcommittees will be meeting between now and August 1st.

20

MR. MURPHY: The subcommittee met on Thursday.

21

MR. HARRIS: We had a meeting of the full committee

22 and three subcommittee meetings following that.

23

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Why don't you check wi th him and

24 call me, and we'll get the Attorney and the Chief Justice

25 and--

PAGE 7

MR. MURPHY: As far as I'm concerned, I would

2 authorize you to fill it myself.

3

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We can do it by phone.

4

MR. MURPHY: It suits me for you to fill it.

5

I move we fill it.

6

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Any obj ect ion?

7

MR.. MURPHY: If Judge Meade will give us his vote,

8 he's got the authority of the rest of us.

9.

You've got all of our authority just to fill it.

10
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MR.. SNOW: Governor, on Article VI, as far as our membership is concerned, those that were officially designated members, we designated the dean of the law school of Mercer and Emory, and I would 1ike'very much to have the actual dean of those law schools as members of the committee.
Dean Morgan at Emory and - - I don't know, who is the new Dean at Mercer? Ever who it is, the position itself rather than the individual is what we had anticipated the

18 membership, and also the Fulton County Grand Jury Association

19 has agreed to resign from that. I would like to have them
c"
20 designate a member from that.

21

MR.. HILL: The only problem with that, Wayne,

22 though, is I had spoken to Charlie about this earlier and we

23 had thought it was the person for purposes of continuity, and

24 I only --

25

MR. SNOW: I think that was true subsequent to that

PAGE 8

appointment, but initially I was allowed to make the selectionl ,

2 and after that is when we started the new policy as I under-

3 stand it.

4

The intent was that it would not be the individual

5 initially, it was the position.

6

. MR. HILL: Except that

Well, that probably

7 happened initially. Ray Patterson, for example, was dean and

8 is no longer the dean, he thinks he's still working on this

9 committee, and it would be very difficult to just now tell

10 him he's no longer needed. He's with the law school, he's no

11

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longer the dean; he's professor of law at Emory.

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I'll do whatever you say. I think you should know that they have been told they hold their position as individuals based on whatever

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me add this, Mel. Patterson

18 is still professor of law there at the law school?

19

MR. HILL: Yes.

20

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What about at Mercer?

21

MR. SNOW: We had an acting dean at Mercer, and

22 they have had a new dean appointed. He's out of state.

23

MR. HILL: I'll check into it. If he is out of

24 state and no longer here it won't create any problem, but

25 those that are in-state and still thinking that they're

,

PAGE 9

serving on the committee --
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2

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't think YO+OUld have any

3 problem if the man is still there, has been working all this

4 time and is with the law school until they get a new dean.

5

MR. HARRIS: The new dean is coming here from

6 Illinois. He may not even be on the board yet.
,

7

A MEMBER: He has arrived. He is at EmOryr'

8

MR. TIDWELL: Wayne, your committee --

9

MR. SNOW: I didn't know what the intent was. That's

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MR. TIDWELL: You selected your own committee, and the Select Committee had nothing to do with that at that time.
Arthur appointed his, you appointed yours, and so it --
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask the Select Committee, is there any objection Wayne calls the new dean at the Emory Law School and sees if he has any feeling about it, if he has

18 any objection to Patterson continuing, or what his desires

y

19 are, and then that he be authorized to make the appointment

20 of the representative from Emory, and also you call Mercer

21 and make an appointment from there.

22

MR. HOLLOWAY: I think you should have the power to

23 enlarge the committee if both of them wanted to serve.

24

MR. SNOW: I think it would be good since the dean

25 is from out of state and he isn't familiar with what we have
------------,-----

PAGE 10

been doing .

.'?.
2

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to leaving that

;;:,1
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3 subject to the articles committee chairmen?

4

If not, then --

5

All right. Do you want to take up your next

6 subject?

7

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe I need to

8 waste a whole lot of words on that. I believe everyone pretty

9 well knows what occurred.

10

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The effort sank in the last day or two of the session of 1980, possibly under the weight of the substantial number of amendments that were added, and particularly one that limited the size of the House to 120 and the size of the Senate to 40.
That pretty much is the icing on the cake, Therefore, nothing was done except that there will be on the ballot in November thirteen general amendments and 128 local

18 amendments to be considered in various jurisdictions by the

19 voters, which to me simply reinforces the need for some kind

20 of flexible document for Georgia to operate under,

21

MR. MURPHY: All I can say about that is that the

22 Lieutenant Governor now has exercised an awful lot of --

23

A MEMBER: Restraint.

24

MR. MURPHY: I wouldn't say restraint, something

25 that --

PAGE 11

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: On the recommended course for the
.,

"

,'.

2 Select Committee which the staff has prepared and Charlie is

:.:'.

3 passing out now, how do you want to proceed with it. Robin?

4

MR. HARRIS; Well, assuming that the Select

5 Committee feels that constitutional revision should go on.

6 it appears to us that there is a definite need in the

7 consideration of the constitution for the Governor, the

8 Lieutenant Governor and the Speaker to be active, .more active

9 as they can be in the pursuit of that activity in a regular

10 session. Just the duties of all three during a regular

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session are just eno~ous.

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me interrupt you. I have spoken to the Speaker and the Lieutenant Governor several

14 ~ months ago about -- we're going to have to have a special I'" :r::
15 .:. session for reapportionment next year, either late summer

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16 zIII or fall of next year, and it was about going on and having

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17

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the call include a proposed constitution that we come up

18 with in the Select Committee after they complete all the

19 articles we go through here. Then we would have reapportion-

20 ment and this, and I think there would be a lot more time

21 for the legislature to concentrate on doing this.

22

Do you want to go through what the schedule will be?

23

MR. HARRIS: The

24

MR. MURPHY: Let me ask a question. Didn't we put

25 something on the ballot about this change, the way we could

PAGE 12

approve these articles this year?

....;...:~

2

MR. SNOW: We put it on there. It did not pass in

i',
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3 the Senate.

4

MR. MURPHY: The senate didn't pass it.

5

MR. SNOW: It was a germane problem, but it was

6 passed, the question was going to be raised to challenge the

7 germaneness of it is what you advised me of.

8

MR. HARRIS: The article committees on VI, VII, VIII

9 and IX we have asked to proceed with their work and report to

10 the Select Committee by December 1, 1980. Following that, it

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would

seem to me

the

Select

Committee would need to

recon-

~@r~ ~12 "" sider t~e original six articles, I, II, III, IV, V and X, to determine what form we would like those submitted in together

! 14 ... with the new Articles XI, VII, VIII and IX, package them all

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15 .:l up in a document, consider filing it in the 1981 General

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16 ...zIII Assembly not with any anticipation of activity, and then also

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17 ""III prior to the '81 session the Select Committee recommend a

18 joint resolution of the House and Senate creating a sort of a

19 super Select Committee, of expanding the number of members to

20 include sU8stantiaily all of the members of the Judiciary

21 Committees of the House and Senate or the legislative leaders

22 in both bodies, set up a series of public hearings in the

23 May, June, July time frame of '81, give the public an

24 opportunity to comment on the proposal, and try to arrive

25 prior to the special session at a consensus on a document

PAGE 13

that is acceptable to the public, to the legislative leaders,

2 and hopefully thresh out prior to the special session

3 differences that might exist in major areas so that when the

4 special session convenes there could be a strong consensus

5 from the public and from the legislative leaders of what the

6 document ought to contain, and thus lessen the time that would

7 have to be spent on it or avoid extending the special session

8 beyond the time it would take to do the reapportionment, the

9 thought then being that if through happenstance anything was

10 done at the '81 session that might need to be cured at the

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'82 session it would still be the '82 regular session to do

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12 ~ that curative work before the document went on the ballot in

( 8 ) r i the November '82 general election.

14 ~

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think the major thing they're

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recommending is that after we get through with the next

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17 ~ having the Select Committee we expand this into the

18 legislature and its judiciary committees where they can be

19 continually working and have this additional input before the

20 special session.

21

MR, HARRIS: The public input. That's the

22 recommendation.

23

MR. HOLLOWAY: They'll be working as a joint

24 committee?

25

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That was kind of a general

PAGE 14

statement we made. Of course, we need to change the law

2 under which we're operating to include this if we could.

3 I don't know whether we need to or not.

4

MR. HARRIS: I was just thinking of a separate

5 joint resolution creating a committee --

6

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Legislative.

7

MR. HARRIS:

and that being the only activity

8 that the Select Committee would promote in the 1981

9 legislature.

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MR. HOLLOWAY: Will this joint committee just be members of the legislature?
MR. HARRIS: It would not be my idea it would be just members of the legislature.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think we have to have some continuity on what we're doing when we look at this legislative input. I really don't have any refined action.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Governor, we're going to have to get

18 two-thirds vote of both houses, and an equal membership joint

19 legislative group I think would be more effective than

20 stringing out a lot of votes that don't mean anything, if

21 we can get legislative agreement, because that's where it's

22 got to come, it's from the legislature by this time. It

23 would seem to me it would have a lot more impetus behind it

24 if the agreement was totally that of members of the

25 legis lature .

PAGE 15

MR. TIDWELL: AI, that's what that proposal in

2 front of you contemplates. The proposal contemplates a

3 legislative overview committee solely of legislative

4 members.

5

MR. HOLLOWAY: Hopefully the work of the task

6 force would have b~n approved by the Select Committee by

7 that time so in effect it really is ready for the legislature

8 and if the joint committee is made up of the legislature and

9 the members I think you would probably have an influence

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that would be detrimental. MR. MURPHY: I tend to differ with you just a little
bit, Senator. If we could have the Select Committee meet with a joint committee of the House and Senate and the Governor and with the Governor presiding we could come to some consensus there and I think we would probably have a better chance of passing it if we had the legislative, judicial and the executive branch, and we would have the

18 input of these people where they would know what they felt

19 like, I think you could come nearer passing it myself.

20

MR. SNOW: Otherwise it would be adversarial.

21

MR. MURPHY: Especially with the Governor presiding.

22

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All this is very important. We

23 need some discussion from everybody on the Select Committee

24 because this is going to be tbecrux of the whole matter.

25

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I think the Speaker has got

PAGE 16

1. a good point. I think if we could take this group right

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4 that would pass through both houses --

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Pass a joint resolution.

6

You would have how many members of the judiciary

7 of the House and Senate? Legislatively how many would you

8 have?

9

Of course, you already have some members here,

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MR. g{OW: About 35 in the Hous e . MR. HOLLOWAY: Are you talking about -- which judi comnittee now? MR. MURPHY: That would be up to you all as far as I'm concerned. Both of them if you want to. MR. SNOW: I think if you're going to have all

18 members of one, you ought to have both of them.

19

LT, GOVERNOR MILLER: I think you ought to have both

20 of them. That's the problem we got into in the Senate before,

21 I mean the trouble that we got into with the Senate before,

22 we had some of the special judi that wanted to do something

23 different than the way the judi wanted to.

24

MR. HOLLOWAY: We've got a very limited number on

25 those two committees anyway.

1
PAGE 17

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: We're just talking about
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3

MR. UNDERCOFFER: I'm inclined to agree with the

4 Speaker and the Lieutenant Governor. You could have a

5 majority of the members from the House and Senate, if you

6 don't have some approval from the executive branch and the

7 judiciary branch, or if you do have approval I think it

8 enhances the chan~es of passing it.

9

MR. HOLLOWAY: I have no objections.

10

MR. MURPHY: Senator, whether it's the members of

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MR. HOLLOWAY: Let me ask you this in procedure. After it comes out of this committee, what does it do then,

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that you're talking about

18 now, we woul"d go on and introduce this in this next session

19 and, of course, we're not going to take action on it in the
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21 for this committee to take up, then we would have a joint

22 resolution in the next session doing what we are talking

23 about doing.

24

MR. MURPHY: I would agree with the Senator, and I

25 would hope the Lieutenant Governor would do the same. I

PAGE 18

would request our judiciary committee to meet shortly after

2 we adjourn and start over this thing at which time I would

3 expect to meet with them where I might be able to explain

4 some of the things that this committee has done that might

5 differ from what Mr. Snow's feelings were because he and I

6 had quite some differences.

7

MR. SNOW: But you might come around by that time.

8

MR. HOLLOWAY: The document that we produce has to

9 officially go through both judi committees of House and

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ready at the time the special session, our people could be ready, we'll just get it to the floor right quickly and get it done, what I'm trying to say, and get the conference committee to get to where we can work out our differences in a reasonable frame of time. That's what I'm shooting for . I don't want to spend the summer up here in a special session

18 myself.

19

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Just to put this in capsule where

20 we have a motion, I think the discussion is that we do two

21 things. One is we go on and prepare, that is the Select

22 Committee, a bill or resolution rather for submission to the

23 General Assembly with the idea that no action will be taken

24 on it. Then if we pass a joint resolution, the legislature

25 passes a joint resolution it would be for the Select

PAGE 19

Committee and both the judiciary committee of the House and

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3

MR. MURPHY: I don't think we really ought to have

4 all the committees, because if you start all his committee

5 and all my special judiciary committee you're talking about 6 54.

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: How many are we talking about?

8 That's wh~t I want to know.

9

MR. MURPHY: I'm talking about if you want fifteen

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the sense of the motion is we have equal representation of

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MR. HOLLOWAY: We already are represented on the

18 Select Committee more or less on that.

19

MR. MURPHY: I'm trying to keep it that way, the

20 best I can.

21

MR. HILL: Governor, would the Select Committee,

22 the present Select Committee then be dissolved?

23

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The present Select Committee, the

24 life of it expires on June 30, '82.

25

The only things we'll get into on this agenda will

PAGE 20

have nothing to do with what we're talking about now, it

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4 so they might work until November, past the general election.

5

All right. Then do you want to make a motion that

6 this will be the procedure that we follow?

7

MR. MURPHY: I move.

8

LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I second.

9

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

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Any further discussion? If not, all those in favor say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. Robin, do you want to go on now with this? MR. HARRIS; That pretty much covers everything. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I thought that you had in here
about the Select Committee, the life being continued beyond

18 June, but it's not necessary we take that up at this time.

19

MR. HARRIS; No, it's not.

20

I'm not anxious to extend the opportunity to

21 participate in this activity, Governor, but I know it's one

22 of the rewards I got for working in the campaign. I do

23 appreciate it.

24

(Laughter . )

25

MR. MURPHY; Are we through with all the business

PAGE 21

you've got on the agenda?

2

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: . Yes, sir.

3

MR. MURPHY: I want to ask you something else while

4 these people are here.

5

We have another item that is tremendously important

6 at this stage as far as I'm concerned, and that's the code

7 provision. It goes hand in glove with the constitutional

8 provision, and we spent a lot of money on that thing, and we

9 really need that, and I wanted the Select Committee to hear

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this, to add that to the special session call. I think we're going to speak at the Legislative
Service Committee -- the Code Revision Committee has already met on it, and it's not going to be any changes in the law, it's just getting those dead statutes out, but it's something that really ought to be introduced in the '80 session and acted on at the special session .
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You mean '81 session?

18

MR. MURPHY: '81 session, and acted on at the

19 special session.

20

Do you agree with that, Mr. Snow?

21

MR. SNOW: Yes, sir. I don'tKlow if we could have

22 it ready to introduce in the '81 session.

23

MR. MURPHY: What we're running into, Governor,

24 we're running into a time frame that's going to cost us a

25 bunch of extra money to get the folks in the Mickey Mouse

PAGE 22

or whatever -- I always called it the Michi, they call it

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3 is, but we really need to get it done in that special

4 session, it shouldn't take a lot of time.

5

MR. SNOW: What we're up against, the bill itself

6 will be on everybody's desk will probably be about three feet

7 tall.

8

MR. MURPHY: What we're going to do is introduce it

9 and let everybody have a look at it where they can take it

10 home to their lawyers, their judges can look at and see the

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11 changes, and surely in the '81 session it should be ready just

to go through is what we're talking about.

MR. SNOW: Everybody will have it for several weeks.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that's an ideal way to

proceed.

MR, HOLLOWAY: I do too.

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've got a lot of money spent on

18 that, and that's one of the great needs we have.

19

MR. MURPHY: We can proceed on the theory you will

W put it in the call?

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right.

,

22

MR. HOLLOWAY: Governor, have you given any thought

23 to the time of the special session?

24

MR. MURPHY: I made one request

25

MR. HOLLOWAY: I know we've got to worry about

PAGE 23

turnaround time with the AG's office, and has anybody done

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4 disapproved, because we've got to take our action in the '81

5 or '82 legislature.

6

MR. MURPHY: They've got ninety days, Senator, to

7 say yes or no to us is my understanding of the law.

8

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That should not present any

9 problem, then, because I don't anticipate we'll be --

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it with the constitution.

18

GOYERNOR BUSBEE: Let's kind of leave that open.

19 We will confer more about all this in September, whatever

20 date it's going to be.

21

MR. MURPHY: Surely August or September, not any

22 later than that.

23

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: September is getting rather late.

24 I just want to leave that open if I may.

25

All right. I think we have made some progress.

PAGE 24

Frank?

2

MR. EDWARDS: One more item on the code revision.

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4 an opportunity we could get some sort of half-way firm date,

5 are we going to have to sign an:'extension on this contract

6 with Mickey Company? We would like to have some sort of date

7 in there if we could figure out whether it's going to be

8 August the 15th, September 1st. We had figured September 4th

9 to be the latest time.

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Of course, the main reason for the special session is reapportionment, these other things are secondary, but in any event sixty days we figure we can get these in the middle of August or the first part of September, whenever we have an opportunity we can get together and figure out some firm date so we can have it in this contract, the code revision.
GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I want to do this, I want to confer with you before we sign it because we've got a lot of

18 other things that have to be coordinated with that.

19

MR. HILL: Governor, should we proceed with

20 constitutional revision on'the assumption we're going to have

21 one document and not separate articles to be presented?

22

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that's the bnly way we

23 can proceed. We're proceeding on one article is what we're

24 presuming, because this did not pass the Senate, what we had

25 proposed.

PAGE 25

MR. SNOW: As it is, the only alternative would be

2 tocvote on every each article separately, which there will be

3 a lot of other things that will be going into other articles

4 and transposed, so it would have te be one article.

5

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right.

6

Anything else?

7

MR. TIDWELL: Governor, I don't think you ever got

8 a vote on this entire proposal. I don't know whether one is

9 necessary. You've got an individual vote on the overview

10 committee, but is it the sense of the Select ~mmittee that

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can just adopt this entire report. We have covered most of

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MR. BOLTON: I move we approve it.

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GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion made is the recommended

18 course of action of the Select Committee follow the complete

19 constitutional revision project which consists of eleven

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20 things we have discussed be adopted .

21

Is there a second to the motion?

22

MR. MURPHY: With the revisions where we changed

23 the committee and all that sort of stuff?

24

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think it's completely consistent

25 with the prior motion.

PAGE 26

All right. Second?

2

MR. SNOW: Seconded.

3

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded.

4 Is there any further discussion?

5

If not, all those in favor say aye.

6

(Ayes, )

7

GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed.

8

All right. Anything else?

9

I thank all of you for being here.

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19

20

21

22

23

24

25

INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision
Select Committee Meeting Held on June 30, 1980

SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 6-30-80
. (Pro cedural)