STATE OF GEORGIA SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION Transcripts of Meetings 1977-1981 COMMITTEE MEMBERS GEORGE BUSBEE GOVERNOR CHAIRMAN ZELL MILLER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR THOMAS B MURPHY SPEAKER. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ROBERT H. JORDAN CHIEF JUSTICE. SUPREME COURT J. KELLEY QUILLIAN CHIEF JUDGE. COURT OF APPEALS MICHAEL J. BOWERS ATTORNEY GENERAL MARCUS B. CALHOUN SENIOR JUDGE. SUPERIOR COURTS SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION ROOM 23H 47 TRINITY AVENUE ATLANTA. GEORGIA 30334 4()46f:>67158 COMMITTEES MEMBERS AL HOLLOWAY SENATE PRESIDENT PRO TEMPORE JACK CONNELL SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE ROY E BARNES CHAIRMAN. SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE WAYNE SNOW. JR CHAIRMAN. HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE FRANK H. EDWARDS SPECIAL COUNSEL J. ROBIN HARRIS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MELVIN B HILL JR. ASSISTANT EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MEETINGS HELD ON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION SELECT COMMITTEE COMMITTEE Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee Select Committee DATE # OF PAGES , May 2 ;~:-) 1977 6 July 6, 1977 4 November 29, 1977 41 January 4, 1978 56 February 15, 1978 33 July 11, 1979 25 December 17, 1979 223 January 9, 1980 82 June 30, 1980 26 SELECT COMMI TTEE ON CONST! TUT! ONAL REV I SI ON Meeting Held May 25, 1977 The meeting was called to order by the Chairman, Governor George Busbee. Members present were' Governor George Busbee; Lieutenant Governor Zell Miller; Speaker Thomas B. Murphy; Chief Justice H. E. Nichols; Chief Judge John Sammons Bell; Attorney General Arthur Bolton; Judge Marcus Calhoun; Senator Al Holloway; and Representative Wayne Snow. Also present were LegisLative Counsel Frank H. Edwards and Bill Harper, Executive Counsel to the Governor. The Chairman noted that a committee of three had been previously appointed to present recommendations for an Executive Director. He stated that the committee recommended Martin (;-"arty) Hodgkins, Jr., who is 30 years of age and married. Marty worked for more than four years with the Council of State Governments and served a 20-month tour in the U. S. Army. He is extremely familiar with the rewriting of constitutions in Louisiana and Texas and provided assistance to the constitutional revision staffs in those states. He returned to school to get a Master's Degree at Florida State University and finishes June 10 and would be able to begin to work shortly thereafter. The Chairman stated that a salary of $20,000 had been discussed, with the idea that the committee is going to be of long duration. This figure would be a beginning s.alary wi th no other commitment at this time. A motion was made that the Select Committee elect Marty Hodgkins as its Executive Director at the salary recommended. The motion was unanimously adopted. A discussion was then held concerning office space for the central staff. A motion had been made at the last meeting that the Chai rman would a ttempt to find space on Capi tol Hi!l. Bill Harper stated that he had talked with Lee Marshall of the Georgia Building Authority to determine what space might be available. Mr. Marshall related that the only vacant space anywhere near the Capitol is the three rooms on the fifth floor of 7 M. L. King, Jr. Drive. The rooms are assigned to the State Properties Commission, but because the commission is h.aving problems with getting additional positions authorized, they are not able to use them now and will not be able to use them until this problem is solved. They are willing to let the Select Committee use these three rooms if they can be assured that some additional space will be made available to them as their perso.nnel problem is worked out. They have 468 square feet, which is two private offices and one large outer office that could be used by two secretaries. Mr. Harper stated that in talking with frank Edwards, it was thought this would more than likely be .adequate space for this purpose for at least the next year. The Chairman stated he would have to work this out with the Properties Commission, and a motion was adopted to the effect that the Chairman find the space for the Executive Director on a temporary basis. Speaker Murphy stated that the committee's staff could use legislative commi ttee sp.ace for a temporary location until the Chairman finds more permanent space. The next item on the agenda was the membership of the articles committees. It was noted that the expenses would be paid out of legi slati ve funds. Representati ve Wayne Snow p.assed out a list of 20 names for possible membership on the Judiciary Article Committee. The list 1ncludedl the three deans of the three major state law schools or their designeel Judge Marcus - 2- Calhoun representing the Superior Court Judges; Chief Justice Nichols; Chief Judge Bell; the President of the Younger Lawyers Section of the State Bar of Georgia; the President of the State Bar of Georgia or his designee; a representative from a grand jury association (the most active in the State is Fulton County); the President of the Georgia Chamber of Commerce or his designee; the President of the Georgia Press Association or his designee; the President of the Georgia League of Women Voters or her designee; a representative of l~bor (Representative Snow suggested Harry Bexley, Business Manager, Local 613, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers); Hepresentative Albert Thompson, Chairman of the House Special Judiciary Commi ttee; Senator Howard Overby, Chai rman of the Senate Judiciary Committee; Robin Harris, who has worked a great deal on constitutional revision in the past; Robert Stubbs from the Attorney General's office; the President of the Prosecuting Attorneys Association or his designee; Judge Sidney Smith, who is Chairman of the State Bar committee working with constitutional revision; and Representative W.ayne Snow. Representative Snow stated that this list of names was just a recommendation. Chief Justice Nichols asked if Judge Sidney Smith would be a representative of the Judicial Councilor a representative of the State Bar. Flepresentative Snow stated that Judge Smith is presently chairman of a committee of the State Bar, of which Hepresentative Snow isa member, and that this committee will be working separately on judicial article. Representative Snow stated he felt this represented a cross section of the population in this State. Senator Holloway stated he was leaning toward having two - 3- committees, since Article X (Retirement and Scholarships) is essentially two different subject matters. He will have an Article Committee composed of two committees. He felt that 14 was about the number he would need for his Retirement Committee' one representative each from the business community; labor community; League of Women Voters; Teachers J Retirement System; nonacademic teachers and state employees; firemen, judges, sheriffs, clerks (one representative from this group); five members from the legislature, primarily the Education Committee and the committees involved in this area of law; governmental agencies; Meri t System; and one retired person. Senator Holloway stated it was not his intention to confirm any memberJs appointment until every name had been submitted to the Select Commi ttee. The Scholarship Commi ttee would be composed of about the same number of members. Senator Holloway would serve as chairman of both committees. Arthur Bol ton, Chai rman of the Arti cle II (Electi ve Franchise), stated he had thought tentatively about two members from the House; two members from the Senate; saneone from the Secretary of State1s office who is familiar with elections; League of Women Voters; Georgia Municipal Association; County Commissioners Association; a judge of the probate court; ,a representative from labor; and a representative from the State Chamber of Commerce. In addition to himself, this would be about 12 members serving on the committee. The question was raised that if it is inconvenient for a member of an Article Committee who is representing an organization to attend a particular meeting, is it in order for a designee of the committee member to attend in his absence. Mr. Edwards suggested that the Select Committee should decide whether - 4- the designee would be allowed to vote for the committee member. A motion was passed that a representative for a committee member who is representing an organization would be allowed to vote. A motion was made and adopted that the chairmen of the articles committees would designate the person of a parti cular organization to serve as a member of each committee. A motion was adopted that the membership of the article committees would be approved by the Select Committee. The Chairman of each article committee is to mail a list of the names that he recommends for membership on his committee to the Select Committee. If there are any objections by the members of the Select Committee, those objections should be transmitted to the Chairman or to Bill Harper. If there are no objections received within five days, those persons will serve as members on the article committee. Senator Holloway stated that he would like some guidance as to who to use from a legal standpoint. There was some discussion concerning this, and Mr. Edwards stated that he had planned to have someone from the Office of Legislative Counsel attend the meetings of the articles committees. He stated that he had not thought about devoting somebody from his staff to work full time wi th the articles commi ttees. Marty Hodgkins suggested that experience dictate the size and composition of the permanent staff. A motion was adopted that Mr. Hodgkins report back to the Select Committee as to recommendations for the staffing of the Select Committee. He is to confer with the chairmen of the articles committees to see what their needs are. The last item on the agenda related to a timetable for the completion of the work on the articles. Of course, the articles are to be submitted to the legislature in January of - 5- 1978. Looking at the middle of June when Mr. Hodgkins will come to work and projecting from that point on, the Select Committee should have the articles well in advance of the next legislative session. It was suggested that the various Articles Committees present their proposals to the Select Committee by November I, 1977. This would provide adequate time for the Select Committee to review the proposed articles. The Chairman stated that he has 24 days in November already scheduled, and it would be of major assistance if the articles were submitted to the Select Committee by October I, 1977. A motion was made and adopted to that effect. There being no further business to bring before the Select Committee, the Chairman declared the meeting adjourned. - 6- INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on May 25, 1977 'I , SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 5-25-77 (Procedural) SELECT COMM1 HEEON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION Meeting Held July 6, 1977 The meeting WaS called to order by the Chairman, Governor Georg8 Busbee. Members prescnt were: Governor George Busbee; Speaker Thomas B. Murphy; Ben G. Estes, Law Assistant, representing Chief Justice H. E. Nichols; Jud'..J e JulIan Webb representing Chief Judge John Sammons Bell; Attorney General Arthur Bolton; JUdge ,\iarcus Calhoun; ~;enator Al HolJo"li1y; Senator Howard Overby; Jleprcsentative Jack Connell and herre,;entati VB Vwyne Snail. Also present were Chief IJeputy Le9isliJtive Counsel Charlie Tid,'lell and Cary Bond, Legislative Fi'ical OUicer, and Executive Director of the Select Committee, Martin Hodgkins. Minutc~; of the meeting held on ;'!.dy 25, 1977, wen) paS;icd out to members ot the Select Committee, Bnd a motion was epproved that the Corm"i tte') dispense with the reading of thG Ir.inlltes. The Comrni ttee then heard reports from the ChAin:18n or the Articles Committees. Attorney General Arthur Galton, Chai rlTle;n of the E1e c ti V8 frunchi se Ar ti cl e Commi t tee ro par to d that hi~; Commi tt8C had met and would have Bnpther rn'~eting on July 7. He stated he hoped to get into ho'.'! the Commi ttee \'!anted to approach redrafting this Article. Thc Elective Franchise Article CO!'I;nittee plans to meet each Thursday, and Mr. Bolton stated he felt five meetings would be sufficient for this Committee. Representative Wayne Snow, ChairmDn of tha Judiciary Article Committee stated that his Cownittee will meet Monday, July II. He is interested in the three law school::;--ot takinq advantDge of their expertise, and will study the 1964 revision as well as the 1968 reVision. lie stated that hopefully his Committee would be in real good shape by the end of this summer. Senator Al Holloway, Chairman of the Retirement and Scholarships Article Committee, reported that his Committee had met on July 6. He stated at first he thought of having two committees--one for Retirement and one for Scholarships, but he thought one committee would be able to work in both of thesc areas. His Committee ~li.l1 work ~Iith the retirement portion of Article X and then work with the Scholarships section. l~e Committee has set up rules regarding a quorum, etc. No person substituting for a member at the Committee will be allowed to vote on the final adoption. He stated that tho Co~mittec discussed the expenses und he thought the legislature did not intend to cover the S36.00 per day tor the state employees on tho Commi tte e. Attorney General Arthur f301 ton stated rw could gi. VB him an opini.on on that, I'lhich Vias no. The lletirement Bnd Scholarships I\rticle Coromi ttee plans to meet each ~iednesdi1Y. The Chairman statt)d that the ~)elect Comflli Use, at its last loeeting, hed asked Murty Hodgkins, Executive Oil-ector, to make some staff recommendations. A memorandum including this was given to each member of the Select Corr~ittee. The Select Commi ttee agreed wi til 1,lr. Hod9kin~'" recommendations except it \'las fel t that the range at salary ot the secretary/admini strati ve assistant was too low. !'.tter' discussion, a motion was made that the salary should range tram S8,OOO to S)) ,000. The motion was adopted. The next item on the agenda was supplemental legislation. Senator Holloway stated he thought it would be a better process to let the indiVidual committees be ever mindful at that area. Anything that is going to be changed to statutory will be in the recommendations to the Select Committee. The Select Committee then discussed transcripts at the - 2- proceedings of the Commi ttees. The transcripts of the 1945 Consti tution -Bre in two volumes. The Chairman sLated that the cost would be about $2.00 per page with a guarantee at $50.00. Speaker Thomas Murphy stated that for public hearings the Committees could use the House Appropriations Committee room and everything could be recorded in that room. It was noted that the record of the 1945 Constitution had been used in -8 case in the Supreme Court. A motion was npproved that a transcript be made at all public hearings, -8S well as the deliberations by the Select Commi tt.ee of the recommendations of the three Articles Camilli ttees. Charlie Tidvlell mentioned that he was concerned about thi s due to the fact that sometimes the anI y source of intc'rpretinc) trw ConstItution is the transcripts of the proc~eding5 of the CODmittee~. He felt that ench meeting could be recorded; it doesn1t necessarily have to be transcribed. A IllOti on \iJS made to recon~;ider the previousi::ction dnd have all 1!leetin(js recor(i0~d. The motion was adopted. The Select Committee discussed the Suggested Rules of Procedure prepared by Marty Hodgkins. I t was dec ided that ,a m:ljority vote of anything about the Constitution would require six affirmative votes. l~e approval of vouchers was discussed. It was stated that since th<; expenses corne out of legislati ve funds, someone in the House and Senate has to approve them. In the final analysis Ci1ry Bond must haVe some instruction as to haw he pays the expenses. Perhaps the easiest way would be to handle it through the Executive Director's statf with either the Speaker or the Lieutenant Governor countersigning the vouchers. A motion was adopted to this effect. Marty Hodgkins brought up the question of who would - 3- approve his travel expenses since he could not approve them. It was decided that the Speaker or the Lieutenant Governor or their designee could approve those expenses. There being no further business I the loeeting ~!iJS adjourned. - 4- INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on July 6, 1977 SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 7-6-77 (Procedural) - STATE OF GEORGIA ... Proceedings of th~ Meeting of the Select Committee on Constitutional Revision, held on November 29, 1977, at 3:00 o'clock, p.rn" in the Officer of the Governor at the State Capitol, Atlanta, Georgia, and presided over by Governor Busbee. I I --- - ------ - -- --~ I I BRANDENBURG & I-IASTY SCIENTIFIC REPORTING 37D COLONIAL TRAIL, DOUGLASVILLE, GEORGIA 30135 ! 942-0482 ,! I DEPOSITIONS - ARBITRAnONS - CONVENTIONS - CONFERENCES "-- JI PAGE ; PRO C E E DIN G S 2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The meeting will come to order. You have had passed to you the minutes of the meeting ot July 6th. I'll en- terta!n a motion. SEll. OVS RBY : Move it be adoptert. 8 GOVFPNOR BUSBEE: 9 All right. It's been moved. Is there a second/ 10 JUSTICF NICHOLS: "z II ~ 'o" Secon';. 0.. 12 '""' r: () VE fi 'j (\ P 13 USA E F: : @rl Any objectiol'? If not, the Minutes st~nd approved. 14 ~ ~ ~ :J: 15 .:> "IX :> 16 .~.. ..~ R. Q Z 17 ~ T'I" first r~.nort from one of the ArticJe's study C'ommittpe w i l l h eon i\ r tic 1(' I I ... - I~ r. Be), t 0 tI B OLT()~: ; Governor, I had previously m~iled each one of you-- 19 '[I II 20 I ..i t ? ,.\... ' That's under Tab C, I thin~:J i s your "f~ po r t., i s n ' t I 21 MR. ","" rTf)'.' ; I 22 Risht. II 23 I i,. GOVfR,-)nn PUSBEE: The letter's d~tpd 0r~obpr 6th. 24 II Right. It follows your propoge~ Article 11- your IiI,! 25 lL_ i0tter of October ') th . MR. BOLTO}~: 2 hnd I also included in that explanatio~ of why the 3 Co~wittee, so far as we could recall--why th0 Committee 4 had made these changes. And other than that--I m~an, this 5 is a first for me. I don't know how the Comnitee want me b do discuss it or what they want us to do. 7 how to prepare for the meeting today. 8 GOVE'PNOl:1 BUSBEE: 9 can we do this,? I don't--most of you--I don't know 10 .., z 11 t- '.l01"... ~~r12 IX .u.. j: .z.. U '" 14 >t- ':-" I- 16 .~.. o Z 17 g. 12 Ill: U @ r io: ;: .Z.. U '" 14 ...l- I- % 15 .:. ":'"l 16 I.z.I.I Q ..Z 17 '" BOLTON: Well, now, too, the Constitution provides that the legislature should provide for who the returns should be made to. By a close vote, this Committee removed--if that's the proper word--or designated th~ Secretary of i State as the person to whom all election returns should be! made . So that's--the statute woul~ then conform with the new provision of the Constitution. As a matter of fact, 18 the statute now says secretary of State. nut under the 19 present Constitution, the legislature could change that. 20 If this proposal is adopted, it would be in the Consitu- 21 tion. If the Article is adopted, it would be vested in 22 the Secretary of State and it couldn't be moved out. ~~ GOVE RNOR iWSBF.E: 24 You have two other provisions there dbout the State 25 Election Code. One is 34h-910 and one is Section 34-1010. ________ ~_._J PAGE 7 MP. BOVrON: 2 Right. ~\lmber 2(g). "~ny candidate" seeking nomina- 3 tinn for public office by ncminR~ion petition shall be a 4 registered voter eligible to vote in the election in which 5 he is a candidate." 6 Jim, isn't that--there was no requirement that it be- 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 8 That's a new provision. 9 HR. PRATT: 10 There was different language and it pretty much added "z 11 ... Ill: .oa... up to that. There was various requirements about being an ~ 12 ~ elector and being this and that. But the language that's (@r i ~ ~ 14 ...... :J: been recommended accomplishes substantially the same purposes but ~t's more economical . 15 .) GOVER~WP PUSBEE: "Ill: ~ 16 .~.. All right . oz 17 ~MR. BOLTON: You have Section 34-1010. 18 (h) was "Any candidate seeking nomination for public 19 office by nomination petition shall be a registered voter 20 eligible to vote in the election in which he is a candid- 21 ate. " 22 Now, the section (h) there--this is a writein--thp. 23 D0mination petition. We revmoed--the Committee voted to 24 remove the write-in provision from the old--from thA pre- 25 I sent Constitution and to provide for it in the ~onstitutio~, PAGE 8 but to leave tIle details of it to the--to statutory ,'lnd 2 that's exactly ~h~t this. 3 GOVRRNOR FlUSBEF.; 4 That'~ number four. 5 MR. BOLTON; 6 That's r:irJht. 7 GOVERL~OR BUSBEE; 8 Any questions on any of that? Then, there's two 9 paragraph--rather, two sections in that provision. 10 MR. BOLTON: z~ 11 I- 'o..".... @;I That was a11--a11 the recommendations we had. Now, I want to say to this Committe, WI'! 're still studyinl] this thing and it might he possible that we could conceivably ! 14 I- come up with some other recommendations between now and '" :I: 15 ~ the time the General Assembly meets. "'~" 16 ~ID GOVF. RNOR BUSBEE: az 17 ~ r think we'll hold that op~n. If we can--we'll call 18 the Select Committee if any member makes a requ~st. We 19 can give a special call. If we can--we're going to have 20 some other items. When we get through with the Articles 21 themselves and with the statutory changes, we're going to 22 have some procedural matters that we need to go on anct tak 23 up now because there's only five weeks before the legl51a- 24 ture meet!'!. 25 I.L- All right. Is there any questions concerning any of _~ PAGE 9 the proposed changes in the Constitution on the Articlo or 2 on the statutory changes that's being proposed? 3 JUDGE CALHOUN: I notice one difference in the Article and in the 5 explanation. Paragraph II says a person convicted of a 6 crime-- 7 GOVE F.NOR BUS BEE: 8 You're back now on-- 9 JUDGE CALHOUN: 10 "z 11 .. '.ol".l.. @;i ! 14 ...... ~ :r 15 0) "'"::l 16 ~ Q Z ~ 17 : !>1R. Back to the Article, right. A person convicted of a crime shall be eligible to vote after he completes his sentence. Then in the other person, a person convicted of a crime is not eligible to hold office until he's pardoned ~ftrthe explanation, Arthur, you say if he completes his sentence, all of his civil rights ought to be restored automatically. BOLTON: 18 That was the feeling of the Committee. 19 JUDGE CALHOUN: 20 But you're not restoring nlS right to hold office. 21 ~1R. BOLTON: 22 Well, there's a rlifference--no--Jim, correct me if 23 I'm wrong--there's a difference between the right to hold 24 office--they felt that the right to vote was a more sub-- Off~C_~_~ ~\~~_~ 25 ______st.antial right than the right to hold __ ex=-_._j PAGE 10 pressing it correctly--what they said] 2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 3 Well. I think--did you-- 4 MR. BOLTON: 5 Everyone has the right to vote. 6 GOVERNOR BUSBE;:;: 7 What they have outlined on their explanation of this 8 change is on page three of the explanation where it says 9 "Substantive Changes" down at the bottom of the page and 10 they go on and state "The present Article"--who it (liB- "z 11 I- 0.o.<. @;i1M enfranchises. Then. on the page four. go~s on "The proposed Article disenfranchises criminals as follows"--and then they go on and say that "The substitution is designed !..14 I- to accomplish five things: "--and they list (a). (b). (c). <:zl: 15 0) "0< ;:) 16 :~; (d) and (e). And then they--I think that's the explanation of what you're talking about if you've read it. Z ...-. -( :z: .. 1S .:. CI ::> 16 ~ Q z -( 17 ~ 18 theater and sit down l"ith you and eat at the table wit.h you in the restaurant and do anything else, so why should you deprive hiM of the right to vote. I agree. T agree I recently had a case--was trying a ca3~--presiding in a case in Brooks County and ~ualifyin'] the jury. And one questions you ask, you ask if a',~ybody has any reason tn know why he shouldn't serve on ttisl I term < One man stood up and I said, "Yes, sir, ..,that's your 19 name? Give me your name and your reason." He told mEO his 20 name and sait'l, "I just was released from Reidsville." So 21 He wanted to be excuse~. T 11 iJ t ',,; a r. 0 the r 22 civil right--to ::;erve on a jury. 23 r,m. ROLTON; 24 I'd really like for the~ to lonk this over. I'n not 2S trying to--I'd like for them to look this over and have a___-JI: PAGE 1:' ------ ---------.-- subsequent meeting before W~ pass this on and let them try 2 to ask any questions that--that they felt like. I don't 3 feel like that they've hnd a chance to look at this thing. 4 I'm not trying to suggest procedure o~ how ~e should S handl~ i t . T just say, this is C' iirs,:.. T don't kno',IT. 6 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 7 We're going to probably have to lli'l.V8 i'lJ1otiJPr mn~t.in(j 8 anyway. But if we could go on an~ hear from AI's Commit- ! 9 tee and WR,ne's, then we could get these procedural things! 10 "z 11 t- ..oo..<.. 12 0< @r! HR. in motion. You'll have an opportunity to review it and 1. fan y bod Y ,1 e sir e s t0 h e h ear don it, \'r e '11 h a v i" an 0 t 11 e l' Meeting. BOLTON: 14 >- !;; r want the Committee to know that this is the Commit- :~r 15 0) tee I S \-lork. I presided at the meetings. "0< ::> 16 .~.. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Q Z ~ 17 : I think it does an excellent job of explaining your 18 re asoni ng. It's a question of wh~ther you concur with 19 their reasoning or not. They state their reasons--five 20 reasons. 21 REP. SNOW: I I 22 r Coul~n't we go ahead and t~ntatively adopt i t , thoufjh 23 and then if there are ~uestions that come up, then '.:e I 24 could come back on that? I mov;:! tha t we i'ldopt the recom- j 2S mendations. i ! I .--- 1 JUDGt~ SHITH: PAGE 13 --____-__---1 2 I second it. 3 GOVPRNOR BUSBEE: 4 There's been a motion made ann seconded. Is there 5 (liscussion? 6 HR. BOLTON: 7 Tentatively adopt it. 8 MR. SNO\I~: 9 Tentatively adopt it. 10 GOVE RNOR BUSBEE: z" 11 ;: @;;..'o".... All right. When you say tentatively, let me define tentatively and discussion on the motion that's been made and seconded. If any memeber of the Select Committee asks ! 14 .~.. % 15 0) "'"::> 16 ~ o Z 17 : to be heard on this, I will call a meeting of the COMmittee; otherwise, I will not. Now--any one Committee membe r. All right. Is there any furtn\er discussion? If not, 18 all those in favor say aye. (A chor~s of ayes.] All 19 opposed? [No re sponse ] It's unani~ously adopted. I 20 All right. The next is the report on the JUdicial, 21 Wayne Snow, Chairman. 22 REP. S~OW: : I I 23 Governor, members of the Committee, we have met for II I 24 the past several months and we've had one public hearing. I I 25 And at the time of the public hearing as well as the amount, ._----~--------------------_._---- PAGE--1-4-------l of mail and confusion that existed among many members of 2 the B~r and many of the courts of our State, that we cer- 3 tainly felt that we should hear more--additional informa- 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 CzI II i= @;;'..o".... ! 14 ...... - GOVERNOR BUSBEE: t; ~ :z: 15 .:. Well, from what I've heard about the State, this has "'";:) 16 ~... been promulgated and people will be able to read it and D -Zc 17 :; as another committee starts on this--Articles committee 18 starts on it next year, you can start from it at this 19 point. Any other questions concerning-- 20 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 21 I move that we agree to grant the Committee the ex- 22 tension they-- 23 MR. BOLTON: 24 I second it. 25 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: _J PAGE 17 All right. Is there any objec--all those in (avor 2 say aye. [A chorus of ayes.] All opposed.? [No response. 3 It's adopted. 4 Okay. Then the next will be Senator's Holloway's S Committee with regard to revising the Scholarship Article. 6 SEN. HOLLOWAY~ 7 Well, Governor, the packet contained in file folders 8 passed out to members of the Committee has got our report 9 on the Article revision, which is rather lengthy. We 10 I.' Z 11 i= @;;'..o".... .! 14 .~.. :I: 15 ~ I.' '":;) .. 16 ~.oz.. 17 : 18 have prooeeded with the ~ewriting of this Article on the basis of, number one, we had to awful careful to only consider those things that were germane to the language within the Constitution. We could have gotten into all kinds of area~ in retirement and pension systems that were actually statutory in nature. So we had to very careful in our Committee's consideration not to just gather out anybody that got over in the area that was a statutory con sideration. What we have done is put together a document -. 19 that, number one, eliminates the further necessity for 20 local constitutional amendments. We--you will see that 21 included, not only is an explanation of the approach the 22 Committee made in the revision, but also the actual resolu 23 tions which have been drawn and which we hope will meet 24 with the approval of the Committee and, hopefully, intro- 2S once i.n January. Included in that resolution is--there PAGE 18 r r - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------_.-- --- .--- were above seven areas, I think, in other Articles of the 2 Constitution that still touched on the Article we were 3 attacking. Now, the only time we went to another ~rticle 4 was when it did conflict with what we were Going in Arti- 5 cle X. We have amended some of those ArticluF as the bill 6 will show and we have eliminated some. Ke also have a re- 7 peal clause eliminating, I think it's about nin~ constit~- 8 tional--local constitutional amendments. And I might say i 9 that we have, one a one-on-one basis, talked with each 10 zCI 11 ..jo..:.. @;i ! 14 ~ '~" :r 15 ~ ":;) 16 .~.. Dz 17 ~ 18 19 county involved and, as far as we ~now, we have been able to explain what we were doing and why we were doing it, to the satisfaction of whatever political entity was Involved here. We've also prepared two bills which we propose to introduce simultaneously--one creating by statute the medical scholarship which, as ou know, we are removing from the Constitution itself. The other bill creates the Regents' University System to grant certain scholarships. As far as we can tell, they're the only two entities that 20 are involved in the granting of scholarships that we have 21 affected hy our actions. 22 I think Harvey Findley did a masterful job!n liaison 23 ing this thing for Frank's office. And, Harvey, I'd like 24 for you to make some observations that you think might he 25 of interest to the Committee. PAGE 19 MR. FINDLEY: I i 2 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You've covered most of the I 3 major points. The eff~ct of it is to eliminate a great 4 deal of language, particuarly on the educational assis- - 5 tance programs from the Constitution. It was the Commit- 6 tee's feeling that those programs were really statutory in 7 nature. The medical scholarship provision is a good exam- 8 pIe because it goes on through several pages in the Con- 9 stitution and is strictly statutory. And that's removed 10 .., ..z 11 ~ .o..... ~ 12 ~ ~r~ l 14 .~ .. :z: ..15 ..:., :;) 16 ~ 1M Q Z 17 :SEN. from the constitution and language is substituted with very broad authority so that the Constitution will not inhibit educational assistance programs. Essentially the same approach was taken on retirement so that the Constitution will not inhibit public-supported retirement systems. but the retirement systems themselve~ will be controlled by statute as opposed to the Constitution. HOLLOWAY: 18 Touch on the Fulton County situation. 19 MR. FINDLEY: 20 For Fulton County. as the Chairman pointed outj there I 21 was an effort made to try to remove the necessity for I 22 local constitutional amendment and there was thirteen I 23 amendments altogether that were specifically repealed by I I 24 it--twelve of them were strictly local and one was by pop-I I 25 I ulation. And we did check with every governing body in- . ----i PAGE 20 "1 volved and we have letters in the file from mo~t of them I 2 and SOme of them were telephone conversations as follow- I 3 up. And as far as we can determine. there's no problem i I 4 with the repeal of these local amendments because the Con- 5 stitution will grant directly the authority provided by 6 7 8 9 10 \z:1 11 i= e-:;'2.".. ! 14 ~ '" :I: 15 011 "'";:) 16 .~.. zIII 17 ~ those local constitutional amendments in the form of home I rule and kind of a broadened and expanded homE'_ rule has I made those local constitutional amendments necessary. I count~ The problem in Fulton County--there's a Fulton Teachers Retirement System or School Board Employees' II I I Retirement System that's funded from county funds that is I" unique in the State. There's no other situation like it. While we have a few local retirement systems coverning school people, none of thorn are funded from thA general funds of the county. That was done pursuant to a local-- 1939 local constitutional amendment. So t.o gran thorne rule under that particular set of circumstances presented 18 a problem that we'd have to get a fairly lengthy provision 19 in Article VIII to deal with that. That's the reason for 20 it in there . But the net result is a much--a great deal 21 of constitutional langu~ge has been eliminaterl for what 22 will amount to a couple of pages that will deal with the 23 whole subject of both retirement and educational scholar- 24 ships. Everything will be controlled by statute. 25 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 "z 11 i= @;;..'o".... 14 .l~.-. ~ :J: 15 .:. "'::"> 16 ~... 1:1 Z ~ 17 : 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PAGE 21 i Governor, I think we had just as well mention right I here with the Committee. Our Committee had made their de-I cision and I think it was a hundrod percen~. But we II , looked at constitutional--se1f-enacting constitutional I am~ndment that was passed last year having to do with 62-years and older on a space-availabe basis bein~ accommo~ dated by the University System. We thought that was I\ garbage insofar as the Constitution was concerned. It's I I a statutory matter or matter of--by law that should be I left"to the Board of Regents. And that's the feeling of I this Committee. whether we can politically stand that. I I don't know. But that was the hundred percent feeling of my Committee that that sort of language for a specific. special interest shouldn't be written in the Constitution of Georgia. Because it just doesn't belong there. We feel that the language in it should be protective for all people and specific considerations for specific groups should be done by statute. And that was the reasoning for our consideration. Now. I've already started getting lett~rs and whatnot objecting to removing that from the Constitution. 13nt whether we'll have to or not. I don't know. r,iy Commi ttee I considered it in-depth and felt that it was certainly--andl ! what ~e have done. we have Ie ft that to the discretion-- I the only reason--the reason we thoug~t that was because I _ _ _ _- - J PAGE 2/. --------- --I I we've got special--we got folks in my office the other ! 2 day. All the college professors want their children to 3 go to school for nothing. Well, I want them to go to 4 school for nothing too but I think State ~mployees chil- S dren sh0uld go to school for Nothing, too, if theirs 6 should go. And you've got special interests coming at you! 7 one at a time. And if we're going to get into that ball- 8 park, it's never ending and I just--we just felt like tha 9 it was a consideration for the Board of RegentH. 'de felt 10 that they were subject to less political pressure than members of the legislature. And that's the reason we put it the re But it's something we'll be hearing more ahout. GOVE RNOR BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion on the Article or either the proposed statutory changes? REP. SHmV-: I move its tentative adoption. 18 SEN. OVERBY: 19 I second it. 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 21 It's been moved and it's been seconded. Is there any 22 discussion? This will be with the same understanding that 23 24 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 2S al~ Let me--let me say this, Governor. I have--you PAGE 23 --_., have this Article here that we enclosed with you. Now, I 2 I'll be sending to you--this is a section by section docu-I 3 ment that will explain why every change was made in each ! 4 section that it was made. And you'll be receiving this in 5 the immediate future and it's section by section as this 6 Article is, setting forth in detail what changes we made 7 and why we felt they were necessary. 8 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 9 All right. So the motion's been made and it's been 10 Czl 11 ~ '..o".... 12 ~ 9r! 14 >~ '<"C % 15 ~ Cl '~" 16 .~.. o Z " 16 .~.. o Z <0( 17 : him. But generally speaking, we--subject to criteria set by the legislature, control of pension systems are in the political entity, whether it he school board, county, ci ty that pays into the pension fund. So if in the Fulton 18 county situation, it switches over to the school board, 19 they can do it without the requirement for a constitution- 20 al amendment--local constitutional amendment. 21 GOV:r.RNOR BUSBEE: 22 If you'll turn, nO'N, to--tJentlHffi,-:n, on your tab A, 23 there are several tbinga on.the agenda. Starting off with 24 four about the discussion of the effective date of pro- 25 J posed Articles, Frank, do y'all have any comment on that? PAGE 26 1 MR. EDWARDS: 2 I We had discussed that, not in any particular, speCif-j 3 ie way. Just generally, we thought the Committee ought tOI I 4 maybe discuss whether they wanted to make the Articles 5 effective, m~ybe, July 1, 1977, and give the legislaturo I 6 a chance to operate or--I mean 1979--and give the legisla-i 7 ture a chance to pass acts after this becomes effective or 8 whether they wanted to bring it back $ooner and make the 9 acts effective at the same time or what? Just as general 10 discussion, we dn't have any specific-- "z 11 j: o.."..'.. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: J2 ~ !:! Ive 11 , we need to kind of outline procedurn and-- @ r i HR. HOLTON: 14 ..>....- It would be imperative in our Articl~ II if they % 15 .:. make it July 1, 1979 and give them the session-- "~ :::> III 16 ! COVE RNOR BUSBEE: oz 17 : If it's November of 1978 that these are adopted, 18 you'd have one more legislature. And then by making it 19 effective on July 1st, that would coincide with all legi5- 20 lation that does not have an earlier effective date. I 21 think July 1, 1979, would be the most propitious time to 22 have it. 23 r1P. r: DNARDS : 24 I think that if it suits you, we'll take another look 25 J at it and maybe Arthur's office can and I think as you __ PAGE 27 ----~------, Raid we're prohably going to have to have one more meet- i i 2 ing .t le t before the i.n. 'nd cDuld com. back I 3 maybe and a~opt something specific. 4 GnV'R'H)R BUSBEE: 5 Well, what I would like to do and we could defer 6 that~-I mean, I think we've expressed ourselves. Rut 7 we've got to come up now with a Drafting Committee on the 8 !I 9 II 10 .. 11 .Cz..I ..0.... .12 .u.. t.z=.. u @r '" 14 .>..'~:"z: .15 ,:) CI ...;:) 16 .z.. .0z ~ 17 two Articles that we have adopted and also the Drafting Committee will be in charge of the suhstantive le9i91ation--proposed legislation. So, I think the next order of business would he the crpation of a Drafting Committee to make a draft and get hack to the full committee. We will have to m~et for approval of that . And we also are going to have to hav0 this hefore g0tting to that--and the Drafting Committee will have to know this--will be on the number five--about amendments to 18 existing Articles proposed during the 1978 Session of the 19 General Assembly. Do you want to do what we did on--in 20 1975 on that;? 21 MR.. T~D\N7\Rns: 22 Well, if I might comment on that. That creates a 23 possihl ity for real problems. We had a raft of proposed 24 amen~msnts which were passed in the 1977 session. 'ivo haveJ i 25 a raft of proposed amendments which are pending. And T'm i ______._.--l PAGE 28 __._ _- .. ._~--_ . . ~_... "' sure we'll have another bigger raft that will be intro- II 2 ahOUr dueed this next session. So if we don't dn something 3 those individual amendments--those single amendments that'i 4 for example, would ammend the 1\rticle Arthur had or the 5 one that Al has, and let them pass, we're going to be righ 6 back in the same position we're trying to eli~inate. So 7 my--that would be my ~econd choice--to havo this commissio 8 incorporate those amendments. What we're trying to rio her, 9 I think, in this Select Committe is have thu Constitution 10 just like these two subcommittees have it--I maan, with possible minor changes. But that's the way the Constitu- tion's supposed to be. So if we let ten single amendments be incorporated into these~ we'd be right back where w~ were be fore. 15 ~ r-m. BOLTON: ":':"> 16 lD Z... Wouldn't help a thing. 0z 0( 17 :: MR. Em'1ARDS: 18 So I would make maybe two alternative suggestions. 19 One is that we--and this would take a lot of time--go in 20 and look at each one of these amendments--and thiG would 21 require the cooperation of certain of the presiding offi- 22 cers and all the committee chairman, for that matter, and 23 everybody else in the legislature--and say that, in the 24 event--letls say this was amendment to the ~lective Fran- 25 chise Article--puts some age limit or something on th~t. PAGE 29 __~------l Put in that particular amendment--say that "In the eVflnt II 2 the people ratify Revised Article TI, then this amendment I 3 shall not become effective," or "shall become void," some-I 4 thing along that line. Then that would--then you'd wind I 5 up with Article II exactly as it was hopefully made and I I 6 passed by this Select Committee or certainly as changed I 7 migh~ by the legislature. But, then the second alternative 8 be--and I'm not sure about this from a legal viewpoint. 9 This could create some problems. Put something in each 10 one of these Articles her~ to that effect. Th~t if these "z 11 ~ .l'o".L. two Articles are ratified, then any other amendments re- ~ 12 ~ lating to them will not become effective. Rut that, to ~F~ me, creates some legal problems that I don't know whether 14 ~ ~ it would be wise. '-:"r 15 ~ GOVER,\fOR BUSBEF: "'";:) 16 ~... I think it's going to have to be coordinated with o Z DI'lARDS: 22 Well, I agree. This might not be any problem at all. 23 But I thought we might as well face it now. 24 MR. TIm.TELL: 25 When you get into the revenue one, you' .re reall:__ ~__~ PAGE 33 going to have a--you' re going to have --a-::-d-g-ep-O-d-9-:-~~:-r-~~-l 2 MR. EDWARDS: I 3 And then, in addition, in AI's Article, Harvey has ! 4 gone through ahd amended several other Articles. So we 5 not only have to watch out for amendments to these two 6 Articles but for those that Harvey has had to amend in 7 other Articles too. We've got to watch out for all of 8 them. It's quite a job. 9 GOVERNOR BUSBEE:' 10 "z 11 ... ..'o".... ~ 12 ~ ~Fi ! 14 ...... :I: 15 01) "'":::l 16 .~.. zI:) 17 ::i We'll monitor this and I'll say this. I would ask any Chairman--I'm sure they'll do this in the House and the Sante--that the Chairman, if they are considering making changes, I think it should behoove them to contact the Select Committee and ask us--at least be heard from on that. You had some other things on the agenda here about possibly amending the law that creates the Select Commit- 18 tee--the resolution. Who wants to discuss those points? 19 I don't even know who put them on the agenda. 20 MR. EDWARDS: 21 Well, I can if you like. 22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 23 All right. YOu go right ahead. problJ 24 !'1R. EDI--TARDS: 25 We had a--as you know, a-few little technical i PAGE 34 with--well, that's on the second point. The first point 2 is that when this Select Committee was originally created 3 and providing for a study committee was in the same reso- 4 1 uti 0 n . At' th e time, let me say be tw e e n 0 u r 0 f f ice and 5 Bill Harper, when he was here, and Charlie was in on this 6 when he was up there, we didn't contemplate at that time 7 that members of the Select Committee would serve on the 8 Study Committee, particularly in view of the fact that we 9 had anticipated that the Select Committee would spend more 10 time reviewing and studying what these study committees put out. And so we've had--we've been thinking about that and on--I've had some second thoughts about it, that it might not be a bad idea if at least one member of the Select Committee serve on the study committees to have some real good liasion between this Committee and the Study Committee. And in fact, the more I've thought about it--and what I'm saying here is just my personal view- 18 point. This is something for the Committee to handle. 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 20 Well, it would be like looking at the Constitution 21 and some things that should be statutory. Actually the 22 Articles Committees can be anyone that the Select Commit- 23 tee designates and so maybe that should be just left up 24 to the Select Committee as to who they want to serve on I 25 the Articles Committees without putting it in the statute.J\ PAGE 35 .,.-----------------------------------l Using the same principle that you use on the constitution I 2 and the statutes. 3 MR. EDWARDS: 4 Yes. It could be that way. But in any event, we 5 have--what I had prepared here was a little--just a rough 6 draft amendment for y'all to do some thinking about. And 7 here again, this is something we can decide at the next 8 9 10 11 .Cz..I or: ~@r12 ."0o.r".: .~.. .jz.:. U '" 14 .>..- '~" % 15 .:. CI '"::I 16 :zID; z ~ 17 tit ID 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lL- meeting as to how you want to handle that particular situation. In this, I present the committees which were appointed prior to July 1, 1977, which would take care of the Judiciary Committee already because they had four mem- bers of this committee on that. The reason at first we didn't anticipate that any members of this Committee was because in effect they would sort of be reviewing their own work You have a whole flock of members of this 8el- I ect Committee on a study committee. Then we bring it up tl this Committee to review and they'd in effect sort of be reviewing their own work. But as I say, I've come around I to the .view that there certainly ought to be one member of this Committee on each study committee just as liaison and might ought to be the chairman of the study committee. I That could be either way. I The only other point I had on the thing was we had I ! some confusion about the pay of members of this Select I Committee and those of the Select Committee who were on thei ---.-J PAGE 36 study committees. So one part of this thing tried to take 2 care of that and--I believe, Marty, did you put a copy of 3 this rough draft in the back of this thing? 4 MR. HODGKINS: 5 Yes, sir. 6 MR. EDWARDS: 7 If y'all want to look at that later on. That again 8 is something that needs studying. And my recollection is 9 the only member of this Select Committee that would be 10 changed would be Marcus. But you'd still be reimbursed .."z 11 ~ .o..... @;I for your expenses even on the study committee just as you are on the Select Committee so I don't think it'd be any-particularly big deal. But it sort of straightens out ! 14 ... that confusion . '~" % .15 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: ":::> 16 .~.. Well, we're going to have to have another meeting oz ~ 17 : anyway. 18 JUDGE CA~HOUN: 19 I agree with the Governor. I think the membership of 20 the study committees ought to be left up to the Select 21 Committee and ought not to be locked into the statute. No 22 use in tying hands when we might want to change our minds I r 23 again. ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 25 This next meeting is going to be quite difficult ___.J PA""GE 37 I s th~-;:-----l to schedule between now and the legislature. I 2 anything-- I 3 SEN. HOLLOWAY: I 4 contact~ Do you need another meeting unless you have a I 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: i 6 I We will--the only thing we'll need is in the event-- ! 7 now, if we need to change this resolution that created I 8 us, we'll have to have another meeting unless I can mail 9 something out to you. You have yet to name a Drafting 10 ..CzJ 11 a: ..0.... ~~r12 a: .u.. t.z=.. u '" .14 >- ':"s: 15 .:I ..Ca:J ::> 16 z 0z 17 a: ell Committee and you're going to have to review the draft. Do you want--it's going to be extremely difficult to schedule. Now, would there be any objection as far as the drafting of these proposed resolutions and the statutes to let's go on and appoint at this time a Drafting commit-! i tee and mail each member of the Select Committee the draftt and if you don't have any ques--if no member asks for a meeting, then it's adopted. 18 REP. SNOW: 19 So move. 20 JUDGE SMITH: 21 Second. 22 GOVE RNOR BUSBEE: 23 Okay. So the motion is and the second, that we ap- 24 point at this time a Drafting Committee and the drafts 25 will be mailed out to each member of the Select Committee. -~ PAGE 38 -----1 If no member of the Select Committee asks for a meeting i 2 or disapproves--or asks for a meeting, then the draft, as I 3 drafted by the Drafting Committee, will be submitted to I I 4 the General Assembly. All right. Is there any diSCUSSiO~ 5 on that? If not, all those in favor say aye. (A chorus I 6 of ayes.] All opposed? (No response.] It's adopted. I 7 Now, on the Drafting Committee, to appoint--why don" I 8 --I'll just suggest this; it might be out of order. Let'sl 9 just have, say, Legislative Counsel, my Counsel and the 10 Attorney General--someone--he or his designee, the three, "z 11 ... to be the Drafting Committee. @;;I..ol..l..: Mr. Tidwell and Mr. Bolton.] JUSTICE NICHOLS: (Indicating Mr. Edwards, ! 14 ... Do you make that as a motion or you-- '~" :It 15 01) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: "'~" 16 ~... No, I can't make a motion Q Z ~ 17 : JUSTICE NICHOLS: 18 I'll make it a motion. 19 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 20 I second it. 21 GOVE RNOR BUSBEE: 22 All right. The motion is made and it's seconded. 23 Any discussion on that? If not, all those in favor say 24 aye. (A chorus of ayes.] All opposed? (No response.] 25 It's approved. PAGE 39 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 2 How is the--do you propose to introduce the legisla- 3 tion? As Administration legislation or just let it-- 4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 5 well, now, the next question is, should it be intro- 6 duced in the House or in the Senate? I think it would be 7 well to discuss that right now. The budget's going to be 8 9 10 . ~ zCJ 11 o~r: SEN. o "- 1M 12 ~ ~r~ 14 ~ .~ x.. 15 .) CorJ: ::;) 16 ~ z~ 17 : REP. coming off first thing--on the supplemental budget. Why I couldn't you go and take this up immediately in the Sen- l' ate? I HOLLOWAY: I I I'd like to with the concurrence of the House. Y'alll I are going to be tied up on the Budget to start off with. I'd like to go on and introduce it in the Senate and sort of kick it on out. as far as my bill--my Article's con- cerned. SNOW: 18 If you're going to have it in the Judiciary, we could 19 take the other Article and-- 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 21 Let's do this. Let's take with the Speaker and the 22 Lieutenant Governor and then get back together on proce- 23 dure. Now, I know that you're going to start with yours I i 24 over there. It might be that we could start with this onel 25 in the House. I I I ----_-! PAGE 40 REP. SNOW: 2 I would like to see both of them brought up immedi- 3 ately and get them passed. 4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 5 I think they ought to be brought up at the same 6 time. 7 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 8 Well, we could start one in bne house and one in the 9 other. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: l-' .. 11 Z j: All right Is there any other business? o...... @;I MR. TIDWELL: What about number five? Was that resolved? It 14 !...... wasn't in my mind but-- ~ :I: 15 olI GOVERNOR BUSBEE: "a: :;) 16 .~.. Frank was saying--what he was speaking about is like D Z 0( 17 : we had in the 1976 to resolve the conflict. But what 18 we're saying is we're going to monitor all the amendments 19 that are offered during the session and work with the 20 leadership in trying to have language put into those bills 21 that would be self-destruct upon the passage of these Arti 22 cles. And that's the reason I think it's essential that 23 we go on and pass these Articles early in the Session. 24 Okay. Any other business? If not, we stand adjourned. I 25 I [Whereupon, the above-entitled proceedings were adjourned ---.-J PAGE 41 at 3:50 o'clock, p.m.] 2 C E R T I F I CAT E 3 I hereby certify, as the court reporter, that the 4 statements that appear in the proceedings were taken steno- 5 graphically by me, and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me, 6 and that this transcript is a true and accurate record to the 7 best of my ability. 8 9 10 "z 11 i= Io..I..<.. ~ 12 ~ ~F~ ! 14 ...... :I: 15 .:> "II< ~ 16 .~.. III Z 17 : DARLENE F. AKINS, CCR Notary Public, GllOrgia, State lit L~lI8 My Commi.,ion Expires Aug. 3, 1980 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LL i I I I ...........J INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on Nov. 29, 1977 SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 11-29-77 Proceedings. p. 2 Article Committee Reports ARTICLE II: VOTING AND ELECTIONS. pp. 2-11 ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH. pp. 17-25 (Retirement Systems) ARTICLE VI: JUDICIARY. pp. 13-17 ARTICLE VIII: EDUCATION. pp. 17-25 (Educational Assistance Program) Appointment of drafting committee. pp. 37-38 STATE OF GEORGIA ..- Proceedings of the meeting of the Select Committee on Constitutional Revision, held on January 4, 1918, at 4:00 o'clock, p.m., in the Office of the Governor at the State Capitol, Atlanta, Georgia, and presided over by Governor Busbee. BRANDENBURG & HASTY SCIENTIFIC REPORTING 3715 COLONIAL TRAIL, DOUGLASVILLE, GEORGIA 30135 942-0482 DEPOSITIONS - ARBITRATIONS - COf\;VENllONS - CONFERENCE:' II Ii Ii 2 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: PRO C E E DIN G S l'ACE 2 3 II The meeting will come to order. First will be the 4 1,1 adoption of the minutes of the meeting of November 29th. 1; i' 5 ii I,I' You had the minutes mailed to you. I'll entertain a mo- . !I 6 I;i' tion on the minutes. 7 MR. BOLTON: 8 Move they be adopted. SEN. HOLLOWAY: 10 Second. 11 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE I ",., Motion made and seconded. Any discussion? If not, 14 ~ ;: 1,,'' J ~ ~ ~'1 Li all those in favor say aye. (A chorus of ayes.' All opposed? (NO response.] It's unanimously approved. Next, I'd like to calIon Frank Edwards for a brief discussion on the effective date of the proposed Articles. Frank? MR. EDWARDS: 19 One thing we decided, that the Elective Franchise 20 Artiole could be made effective July 1979. And the time 21 on the Eduoation and Scholarships Article would become 12 effective January 1st. And the reasoning on that is, 23 otherwise we would have to put an effective date Article 24 on each one of the provisions contained in that particular: I 2:'> proP~s~~_~_,_~_n_,=-~~~~~_~,':'.st be--what, H_~rv.~-,_about~i9ht_J 2r. o -1 PAGE 3 ::a::~~-:; th~m~~~~~;h~-:-r ten ~ .~:: ~~:o:. ~h ~n;-;::: 'II MR. FINDLEY, I 4i Yes, sir. I 'I 5 It II MR. EDWARDS: o !i I: 7 Ii I! iva :1, r: :i GOVERNOR !I II Y II And I felt there was no need to postpone date of that particular Article. BUSBEE I Now, wait a minute. You said January 1:, the effect- 19791 10 MR. EDWARDS: I j ,. 0< On the Retirement and Scholarships Article. o Q. 0:'.1oA -l GOVERNOR BUSBEE: ". Yes, Al? 14 i: SEN. HOLLOWAY: VI ::L I', c, I don't see any other heading to bring it up under, (" ,,: i ;) :,:">., 'v but what has concerned me is, what happens to a constitu- L I '! ! J".L tional amendment that's introduced affecting one of these' 18 Articles? And looking at redoing the Constitution Article l 19 by Article, I think we kind of overlooked that on the 20 basis, haven't we? "~i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 22 I thought we discussed this at the last meeting. 21 MR. TIDWELL: We've got a discussion on the agenda. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: .---._--._._------_. ----_._-------_._- ._----------- _. J - - - -------~ - - - - - - - _ .__._--- PAGE 4 We have a discussion on the agenda today for i t also. SEN. HOLLOWAY: Oh, we do. I didn't see it. Thank you. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Now, Frank, what you're saying on the Retirement and scholarships that we'd start that on the effective date 7 of January I, 1979. And then on the other Article. it would be July of 1979--July 1st. All right, now. Is 10 I! C 0: o o. '0": there any--I think it would be necessary to have a motion on the Select Committee on that. Was that ever--that's never been finally adopted, was it; I don't think so, Marty? HODGKINS: (Indicating negative response.' .~ SEN. HOLLOWAY: '"':::J ]1' ~ a Z So moved. -,_<".! r 1S J CJ ,;;(. " Ii'-) ~ ,~ 0, Z <1 I ~I u:: I I c' Articles III, the Legislative Branch,. Artio~e IV, cons~itut I tional Boards and Commissions and Article V, the Executive Branch, possibly would come up with recommendations for the 1979 General Assembly. And then on the other Articles they deal with the Taxation, Education, Counties and Municlpa1 Corporations and the other three miscellaneous Artieles, that work could at least begin on them sometime next Summer and a lot of them would have to have a lot of prep- aratory work that's pretty difficult to to in one summer. At least get them started next year and perhaps they could report at the 1980 or 1981 General Assembly. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You're saying Article III was Education? i ,,~ Ii L.) Ii MR. HODGKINS: I :! I 24 :1 I Yes, sir. Oh, no, that was Legislative Branch. i Ii 25 IL~OVERNOR BUSBEE: I __________. . J -----------------------..---.-,--- ..-----~ PAGE 6 -------.--.,.--------.~-~-- . ----.-~---------- . --.---.-~--------_.-- .----'1 Oh, I'm sorry. That's Article VIII. Article III is I Legislative? i I MR. HODGKINS: I I Yes, sir. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And what other ones? 7 MR. HODGKINS: Article IV, the Constitutional Boards and Commissions! ! and Article V, the Executive Branch. And of course a con-i 10 tinuation of Article VI. 1 l ;~; GOVERNOR BUSBEE: '.'L, 12 "~~' \/~~~)/yr~~ And then we continue working on Article VI, Judiciary? '--_Y 14 >~; MR. HODGKINS: ,~ 1: ;, 16 11~ "z <1; 17 ~ Yes, sir. Hopefully, we have proposals ready for the 1979 session of the General Assembly. And all the remain-: I ing Articles we could--at least get started on and have a liS reporting date of 1980 or 1981. 19 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 20 In 1979, you can't vote on a constitutional Article, 21 can you? MR. HODGKINS: No, sir. I SEN. PAGE 7 Actually that would have some effect on your spacing? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, what he's talking about is taking the Legisla- tive and Constitutional Boards, the Executive Branch and the Judicial--all in this two-year period--is what it 9 amounts to and trying to complete the work in one year on this and add some more. Is that what you're talking about Marty? (. (t~Vr~ 'r~l\ ~ 12 ~ MR. HODGKINS: Yes, sir. So that hopefully in 1980 we'd have at 14 .>..-. l~ least four to vote on, if not more :t: j, ,j co GOVERNOR BUSBEE: :":"J 1() .~ w Let me ask you, Is--1 don't anticipate that we're Q 1: 0: ] /' ~ going to be doing too much during the legislative session Hs !; Ii that we're in now. 00 you want to adopt--does the Select 19 Ii II Committee want to go on and choose what we will be working 20 II:i on; let the staff be doing some work while we're here or-- I1:1 21 !I MR. HODGKINS: n Ii Yes, sir, that's-- 23 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 24 I il:1 2') lL _ --at least we could start on some of them and maybe I I add son:e mor0 to them. But what's the feeling of the - - - _ .. .. ... _ - - , - ~ - - _~-_., J Committee? PAGE 8 --~ -- - ------------------------ --- ---------_._-------- ------------------------, I don't think you can start too early, at least to authorize it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE, Well, I'm thinking about staff-wise and so forth, we I 7 need to know what we're going to do. MR. TIDWELL: :; The original schedule was proposed that this project 10 would be completed in 1982. So you have to get on about J ] 1- "- the work of working on these other Articles immediately. And when we say 1979, really, it's probably going to take two years. Actually it will be submitted in 1980--those four Articles. And then that only leaves another two -, lh ~ oI~ ;-;, 1', .x ~ / .:1 18 19 20 21 )} 23 .'4 years to complete the whole project. So the staff felt like that you should authorize the creation of these com- mittees and get them cranked up. Because some of them are going to take a full four years. And these others are probably going to take a full two years. You saw what we got into in the Judicial Article, that it was right complex. And these--the schedule proposed there is , really basically state government. That would be the Leg-i islativ., Judicial and Executive Branch and the Boards. I i And that's your basic strueture of government there and I ! i that would be a handful to get that done in two years. j' .. ... ~----~~~--_ ,._--~--------------- PAGE 9 rr------ --- ---- ---- ----------- ------------------------ -- "---, II I But if we don't start, we're not going to make it. You'rel ) II not going to meet your time schedule. I 3 IIii GOVERNOR BUSBEE t Ii 4 !i Any member desire to comment on the--the staff has 1: 5 II Ii proposed that we start on Ill, IV, V and VI. We could addl Ii 6 ii to that at the end of the session. What's the feeling? i Ii I 'I 7 II REP. SNOW: i II 8 il I concur in that. it I lj !i Ii MR. BOLTON: I ! 10 Suits me. ! JUDGE CALHOUN: I move we authorize them to do so. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. The motion is that--is there a second? 1., ~.), MR. BOLTON: :~ lb "z",, ;) I second it. z: '~"" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: J (; Motion made and seconded that the Select Committee 19 has chosen Articles III, IV, V and to continue on Article 20 VI. Is there any discussion? If not, all those in favor 21 say aye. [A chorus of ayes.] All opposed? [No reponse.] J) Adopted. All right. Charlie, do you want to bring up the-- 24 what we were talking about a while limit the amendments to Articles? PAGE 10 MR. T:::~~.'~ir'-~~.-la~~~.~~in~..~.r~waa-~th.-- ---I 2 3 Select Committee tried to adopt policy on how to deal withl i 4 the problem of handling concurrent amendments that were 5 being adopted by the General Assembly to the various Articles as they 90 through the revision process. And 7 the rather loose policy that was adopted that the best thing is that we just would have no amendments. That kind of was the sum and substance of that recommendation 10 --that we would discourage the General Assembly from pro- ~ 12 '" .... (~~~~~ ~ "~ I1: '" ~ , - -.. 14 >. <>r. 15 '.:~ co rL :;) 16 zI':CI 0"' z < L ''"" 18 II III" 19 II ,I II 20 I 21 22 , ,, 21 25 posing and passinq independent amendments to the Articles that were then going to be reviewed during that two-year period. We--the Drafting Committee got back together and, in conjunction with your staff--and we felt like that that --while that was an effective way to do it, it did not take into consideration that the Select Committee really doesn't control that process. That is, while there are legislative leaders on the Select Committee, the Select Committee cannot really enforce that policy. So we have --have come up with a recommendation for a--including that as part of the policy, hut an attempt to try and handle i 'I all conceivable situations that we might run into in the I, future. Now, what that policy consists of is a very strong I J r-~------------------------------_- PAGE 11 _ - - - - - - - , ._~_-----------_.. i policy position by the Select Committee that there be no 2I amendments adopted to the Articles, realizing that if we II,I 3 II don't control that, that if an amendment--that there are 4 Ii 5 IIIiI amendments proposed and under consideration that a selfdestrlct provision be added to each of those amendments 6 IIIII'I that would say in the event that Article V were to be 7 II ratified at the same election as this proposed amendment I, 8 I, Ii to Article V was ratified, that then that independent II ii 9 !i II amendment would be null and void. 10 There, again, that will not completely handle the situation. Because at this very General Election, we're going to have an amendment to Article II that does not fit into the Elective Franchise structure. So the third policy position would be--is that those--where there are 15 '~ C, ~', .::.., 1() ,;I:: L ~, "L 17 a' I en independent amendments that have been paBsed, that there be an attempt to repeal. The one we're talking about here! I would be the recall provision. But if that were not a I I ib Ii i viable alternative, politically--the General Assembly Ii 19 I! 'I II I could not be convinced that that was the thing to do, thenl 20 II II a--a fourth policy position would be--is where possible 21 II II I that existing amendment would be moved to another Article.i 22 'I I I'I 23 I,!' Ii As an illustration of what we're talking about there I emend~ on the reoell provision. rether then heving it .s en 24 'I L25 i ment to Artiole II, it is jnet es germene to Artiole ,~' the Bill of Rights, and we would simply amend it--the .. --~._.- _~--- [1----- !I II 2 !I I i 3I II 4 I, PAGE 12 existing amendment--move it over into Article I. The last p08sibility--policy recommendation would be that we do recreate that special commission that we had-that was created in the 1976 Constitution to incorporate sI I into the new document any amendments con--that were rati- I 6 Ii I, fied concurrently. And this of course is a recognition of II 7 III, the failure of all the other positions that go in front of I! ,I 8 II I'I I that. But we probably will have 80me even if all of these' 9 --if the policy is adopted by the Select Committee to have 10 " t 1 ~ e "0" 0- w 12 '" ~, ~~ '\;"~-~=~ ;'''r''.' I- Z w ~ 14 }. ~ l' IS .:> "'::"> 16 :"uz',: :z:> 17 ''"" 11\ Ii 19 II 20 II II 21 II II 22 I,I' ';3 II !I 24 II Ii II 2S lLI! ______ a very forceful and rigid campaign to not have amendments, that sOlie are going to be 'introduced; some are going to be passed; eome are not going to be repealed; 80me are not going to have a self-destruct feature added to it. And to deal effectively with that situation, the only thing that we know that we could come up with is a special commission that could then incorporate that amendment into the Article. And the final thing is that we solicit the help of the Speaker and the Lieutenant Governor and the legislative leadership to enforce this policy very rigidly --to seek their assistance through whatever means are available to them to acquaint the members of the General Assembly with this policy and to seek their cooperation in enforcing it. And there is the package that the staff recommends to deal with this subject. If anybody has any questions about it, we'd be glad t 1 I attempt t o answer them. 1-~----'~~~---~~-------- - - ~ - - - - _ . _ ~---~ PAGE 13 Ii2 GOVERNOR BUS BEE r :1 II 3 II Let me ask you this. The first thing you said would I, II 4 III' be to ask that we not have any amendments to be intro- 5 il duced. The last you ended up by saying we'd have to seek 6 II cooperation of the Lieutenant Governor, Speaker, Chairmen II 7 jj II of the Committees, wherever these things would be referred !i 8 :1 And if we have a self-destruct p'jivison placed, that we I. ') III would have to do this ourselves--but we would have a self- !O '.;l Z j I [~ ~: oo.,. j 2 :~ (1~~'0~')f}r~\'~~. ~~: destruct section placed in any proposed smendment. And the one thing that I have a question on is about the special commission. Now, that's what we had before when we had the con- 14 ." ~ constitutional amendment itself? ,1 iL 16 :.''1" 3 MR. oz 'rIDWELL: <' 17 ;, That'. right. We recommend a separate arnendrnent-- Ii 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I: Ii 19 Ii So really aren't what we I re talking about on this, ,I Ii 20 Ii Charlie, is for you and Frank and loiarty and all of us-- 2J 11,'1' I, II 22 1'I we'll flag these things; we'll talk to the Speaker; we've got the Lieutenant Governor here now. And then, when 23 IIi'I somebody introduces it, then I think we can take it up at I' 24 IIII that point? I'I ::5 I MR. TIDWELL: L __ ~.-~._. ~ ~_~~ ._. . II ------------- ---------------- - - - - ------ -------- --------------- PAGE 14 Right. 2 SEN. HOLLOWAY' 3 Whole g01ng to have the responsibility for bird-dog- 4 ging theee things? 5 MR. TIDWELL: () I think your staff would have to do that, Senator. 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 8 Right. The staff will do that. We oan call a meet- <) ing if we have some more--when this comes up, but is there anything we need to adopt at this time? TIDWELL: I think that the staff felt strongly that this should be the policy--the very strong policy of the Select Com- 15 'J "a: :> a 16 '-;". z - 17 0: co 11-\ 19 20 21 23 mittee on this subject. And that that would then lend I weight to try and--the most effective way of course is not! to have any amendments. Then you don't have any problems. We checked with some other states that have gone through this process and that's-the only one that we could really find that was that close was South Carolina. And they i did--the Chairman of the Judiciary Committe. in the House, II all constitutional amendment were referred to his commit- I I I tee and he simply wouldn't let them out. And that was very effective but I don't think--we cannot oontrol it that way. 25 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: [r----------- ------------------------------------------------------PAGE 15 --.-._-~, I II We can di8courage that--amendment of these sections i .2 Ii! But I don't think that even the presiding officers could ii II .< II go that far on the rules. 4 II I'! MR. TIDWELL: 5 II !I No, sir, I think that--we recognize that this is not !i 6! I: the p08utre that we're in here--that the Select Committee Iii 7 ii Ii can't control it. I' g I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Just for purposes of discussion and going on, I think JO ,i- we all recognize the problem if these were to be amended ~,:) I I 1__ and s separate amendment placed separate on the ballot, if we did not have a special comssion--so what we're saying 1s we're going to try and keep any amendment from being , j 'i ;>-- made to these two Articles. If one is made, we'll have a 1c '..~ ;-", i" D 1: '-' Z ,'" 1..., ~- .1 '~ self-dstruct section added to it--a recall amendment. The~ we also will--in the event that we fail in all of this and they do pass a separate and independent amendment to any of these Articles, we will at that time try and put a I9 special co.mission similar to what we had before in. So 20 that's about the status of it? 21 MR. TIDWELL: . That's right. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I All right. Is that the policy of the committee_? Any: 25 objection to us pursu--the staff pursuing this? All right PAGE 16 ~. ---... -~~. -no:~ tha ;- is -:~~-;o-;~'~;:'~~-~-~-~--:-~-:~~::~~-;;~~:~~d~. ilI,II !I 2 MR. EDWARDS: Ii 3 Ii Mr. Chairman I would I add something? I ; 4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE; 5 All right. 6 MR. EDWARDS: 7 Nhat's the feeling of the Select Committee on the 8 recall amendment which has already passed this last session? Has anybody got any-- lU GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Ii, 0: o... What is that? '~'"" MR. EDWARDS: ~ I don't--I vetoed one. This is a constitutional amendment authorizing the .>..-. ':l 1:. IS., r..:; 6'::"> 16 o <.: - .>"- MR. TIDWELL: 'l 1S .~ Cl Yes, sir. I:":: ::> ] (; ~ a GOVERNOR BUSBEE: l Well, what Ham i8 talking about is just for us to , I I cause an amendment to be made to put a self-destruct =i 19 I.I,Ii I clause in there in the event that we pass our Article that.1 20 1'1' the Select Committ.ee proposes. I II'I 21 SEN. HOLLOWAY: Ii 22 IIII I Do you deal with this in your Article, Arthur? 23 II'.,i MR. BOLTON: I I' 24 Ii . II No. II 25 lL GOVERNOR BUSBEE: _ -~ 0---------------------- -- .... ,. --.--------.- ..-.,_..-PA-G_E .1-8------l Ii No. I 2 I SEN. HOLLOWAY: I 3 Well, the thought came to me a while ago--what has I 4 worked sometimes is to--well, of course, this bill has 5 already passed. You could amend it and put it in Article 6 XIII which is Miscellaneous and deal with it last. Let 7 that be your last Article. A lot of this stuff can just be thrown in Miscellaneous that's not necessarily germane :i or intermingled, you see. 10 MR. "z 11 I- 'o" o. ,~ 12 ~ (~S~~r"~~ 14_.. ':! ,r. 15 ,~ I;l 16 ''~"" ow 7 'l ]7 ~ TIDWELLl Anyone of theae six--five things to be recommended would be a tool to deal with that problem. And it would just--you'd have to see which one is the most effective. Maybe you couldn't repeal it or maybe you could put a self-destruct. If you couldn't put a self-destruct, maybe you could move it to Article I. It gives you_the option to attack the problem from different-- 18 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: !\ i 1<) i I' We're going to have a problem. I really don't have 20 ili,1 II a solution to this because if that is--if that remains as 2l 'I is, we don't have any way of dealing with it. 221 I" SEN. HOLLOWAY: I 23 I,II 24 Ii ,I J Well, suppose both of them pass. What problem have I we got? g I t ' . no t ove r l_a_p_Pi n _ i n a nf wa_y_,_i_S__i_t_? Ii 25 MR. EDWARDS: IL___ '., . ----1 PAGE 19 Are you talking about the self-destruct thi:.,- 2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 3 Yes, it amends that order. Without a self-destruct, I 4 i~ i t were to go on and pass and we were to pass our I Articles, what would happen? I 6 MR. EDWARDS: i I 7 well, it wouldn't fit in becau this sspa.ate a.end-! Si ment is an amendment to the existing 1976 Article that's I 9 now been changed. MR. TIDWELL: It would be amending something that doesn't exist, AI. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I see. i; ~ MR. EDWARDS: ,;;,:,: ::> It:; ~ "I well, that would be a good one to try this. z.~, .,; 17 ~ JUDGE CALHOUN: 1H II Mr. Bolton, do you remember, did you call for abol- ]'l ishing the old Article. 20 II MR. BOIoTON: 21 I,Ii I, il 22 [I ,I You just go directly to the source, though, and ask him can that be done because I'm not going to rule on it. 23 11 1'.1' JUSTICE NICHOLS: 24 I i I Do you want a declaratory judgment? I I 25 IiI JUDGE CALHOUN: IL _. .-.-------.---.--.------. J PAGE 20 r------------:-:--s~:~-~ to me tha t--~~--the new Electi v:-~~~~:~:~- !I I' which Arthur has, we're going to abolish the old Article : II and this is going to substitute. Wouldn't that care of 4I any am.'1'\c!hn.ents to the old Article? II 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 6 III' That'. the feeling that I had, but I don't know. II 7 JUDGE CALHOUN, 8 !i I'll tell you if you bring it in the Superior Court II () II Ii of the Southern Circuit, I'll handle it. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Judge, what are you going to do when it gets to the Supreme Court? We can just dispense with this Article. JUSTICE NICHOLS: Well, I'll uphold Marcus. 10 .~ u'" 1 17 ~ 18 II 1" ! J9 " i 20 Ii 21 22 I 23 II 24 Ii Ii Il'I 25 i We discus.ed that possibility with Charlie and Jim Pratt and Cindy and Marty--all of us discussed that and of course it is somewhat analogous to the way they treated individual amendments to the old 1877 Constitution when the 1945 one was adopted. But we were a little leery of banking on that to solve the situation because it's not exactly the same thing. Here you're dealing on with an Article. Even 90, it's a new Article and it could--you could--you could argue both ways on that. We J realized that but we didn't want to--you couldn't depend r----- :~- it. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - .... ------------_. --~--_.. PAGE 21 2 I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 3 Ii Let's see and--what about the policy of let's try II to put a self-destruct clause on it where this won't come 4 II 5 II up and it will be debated at that time. Is there any ob- Ii 6 II jection to doing that? Then at least we could put it on II '7 II the table and let the legislature dispose of it one way ii 'I s i: or the other. <:) JUDGE CALHOUN: 10 That's a good idea. "z 11 ::< GOVERNOR BUSBEE: ."o.-. @!"~I12 ~ All right. JUSTICE NICHOLS, Do you want to- ----,' 14 ~ I move that. I- '<"l J: IS ...!.), SEN. HOLLOWAY: ':"l 16 ~ Second. oz 1() '!i. o z 17 :ii Second. Any di8cussion? All in favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.J All opposed? [NO response.] It's unani mously adopted. All. right. On Article II, I want to calIon Jim 18 Pratt, Assistant Attorney General, for discussion on pro- 19 ; posed changes to Article II that he assisted the Attorney 20 ,I General and the Style and Draft~ng Committee. Mr. Pratt? 21 I MR. PRATT: 221 II 23 II I believe each member of the Select Committee has in their folder a. page and a half memorandum prepared by the 24 II I, 25 IIII IL .._. staff which puts the matters more concisely and better than I could. .... . PAGE 23 q--------------- ---------- ----------------------------------- I But basically there were a large number of decis- sions made by the subcommittee. These are just some 1 II 3 [I things that were raised and some have been raised by 4 ,I committees of the General Assembly and since they were II apt to be brought up perhaps as proposed amendments to : II I' the proposed Artieles when they get to the General Assem- II bly, the staff felt that the members of the Select Com- : II !I mittee ought to at least. have an opportunity to look at 9 II these particular things sinee they were apt to eome up 10 .., z and make an individual decision on them MR. BOLTON: Governor, do you want Jim to go ahead and explain the proposals? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: J50 ,,' ::J 16 ~ a r. 17 ~ I'll tell you, if you don't mind, let's all just read this first and then let him explain it. I have not read it. I'm sorry. [Brief pause.] If you've completed 18 II I' reading this, we'll start then--Arthur, do you want to 19 i IIiI just go through all of them or-- 20 II I, MR. BOLTON: 21 !I II Yes. Jim, just go ahead and discuss each one of 22 II! those. II 23 I! MR. P RA TT : '-4 '!II IIi' 25 )! I,I L_ _ Well, just very briefly, this was meant to be pretty __~_~!e~_and I could elaborate on some of the .=easons for thel, ,._-- ... ----_....---_.- I -------P-A-G--E-2-4---1 i you know, staff's recommendations and discussion. I 2 But the first one on duration of residency, the 3 I present Constitution provides that the General Assembly I I has the power to establish a residency requirement but that it has to be at least thirty days. Now, there is a serious Federal constitutional problem as to residency requirements. A decision of the U. S. Supreme Court knooked out Tennessee'. requirement of a year in the 10 z<.'l 11 e Q; o ". I~r~~)\)~12~~"' ~/ I 14 >- >~ J: 15 16 'z" w 0 Z ~~ 17 "'" if the court'. attitude is such, as it probably is, that we cannot have--there can be no durationa! residency requirement. And to keep an authorization for it would be surplusage in the Georgia Constitution. IS JUDGE CALHOON: 19 When the pre.ent mood of the court changes, as we've 20 all seen, I see nothing wrong with leaving it in there. 21 The legislature doesn't have to do anything about it. 22 MR. BOLTON: 23 That's the sole purpose. 24 i L___~~_~~. I~_ feel~_ng i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 25 that-=-he__ of the Committee, to leave PAGE 27 '_.-' legislature would have author- II All right. Okay. Any objec- tio~, then, as to leaving that as previously adopted? All right? MR. PRATT: The second area has to do with mental incompetency. The present Constitution has--from the 1877 language, dis- enfranchises "idiots and insane persons." And there was 9 II'I, pretty general agreement on the Article subcommittee that 10 there should be no disenfranchisement, at least without some kind of judicial proceeding. Because it shouldn't be up to a poll officer to just eyeball somebody walking in and say, "You don't look like you ought to be able to vote." and then have the review machinery from that. There was pretty general agreement on that. There was quite a bit of doubt in the Article subcom- mittae as to whether, in practice, a judicial determina- tion in this area would be of any practical use. It wouldn't have the effect of determining property rights like a probate court guardianship. It would simply be-- 21 it would only work if somebody's willing to go out ahead ---,------- PAGE 28 - - - - - - - - - _ . _ . - -_ ~-_._----------_.- ----- . - - - . - . _ - - - - . - - - _ . _ - - .._--.-- II was worth the trouble and possible problems it might cause i! 2 in view of the fact that it would seldom, if ever, be 3 ! used. It really would not result in a question if--some- I 4 II body had raised the question about large st;a~e mental 5 Ii health facilities like Central State and there was some II worry that there might be a lot of undue influence in a 6 1,1 7 II il certain part of the state that might have an effect on an g Ii I eleotion. That problem is taken care of in other ways in <) the present statute by determining residency of persons JO who live in those institutions or provisions regarding un4ue influence. So the issue is whether the Constitu- tion ought to try to disenfranchise peopl~ who have been determined to be mentally incompetent. E~ MR. BOLTON: - lV! They commit them to Milledgeville now and don't declare ":':"> them-- 16 a~ GOVERNOR BUSBE.: 7. 17 ~ I didn't know those people voted down there, to tell 18 you the truth, so I don't know that I'm qualified to even 19 discuss this. 20 I MR. BOLTON: 21 I thiak they can. 22 MR. TIDWELL: 23 They probably don't but they can. _J ,..-------------------_._-I I REP. SNOW: PAGE 31 211 Well, let's don't remind them of it. II 3 MR. HODGKIN 4 IIII Jim, wouldn't they vote by absentee ball,Qt because 5I that's not their residence? 6 Iiii county-- Ii 7 II HR. PRATT: They would not vote in the 8 II Yes. Each one's residence would be the residency of 9 :l ii their home county so it's not as though you get a big con- 11 l-0: '::> 0_ '""' I,..! ~ centration voting in one area. The difficulty is that'if this procedure--the difficulty is that if we carried this through and set up a procedure, not that it wouldn't be good in intent, you know, to make sure that elections were 15 J.l <:J .'" 16 7u'", C Z <:: 17 0: '" i8 as intelligent as possible, but it would only be practically used in like as individual case where somebody had a grudge against somebody else, possibly somebody seeking office and try to embarass them by filing a petition to declare them incompetent-- GOVERNOR BUSBE!: 20 Let me ask you, could you take care of it this way-- 21 and again, I'm JUBt saying the Constitution is supposed to 22 give some authority to the legislature. You could put this in like this--to read: "NO person may register to 24 vote who has been convicted of a felony designated by law 25 as involving moral turpitude, except upon completion of PAGE 32 the .entence, or who has been jUdicially determined to be 2 mentally incompetent, where"-- 3 MR. BOLTON: 4I [I Governor, you could say, "or who is mentally incompe- II 5 II tent." And that would leave it up to the General Assembly II 6 I' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: II 7 II " or who has been determined to ~e mentally incom- 8 Ii IiiI petent as determined by law . " That's what I'm trying to 9I I'iI .ay. And then you could--it just looks to me if a person 10 Cl Z I I c- oO' 0w '" is mentally incompetent, they ought not to vote. Or at lea.t the legislature should be able to pass legislation. PRATTa Yes. What the staff was trying to do is--1 think the pre.ent language would in effect leave it up to the Gen- L ," Cl eral Assembly. 0' ;;> 16 .~.. o GOVERNOR BUSBEE: z 'i J.7 ~ What's the pre.ent language? How does it read? 18 I: MR. PRATT: 19 I[,i It talks about a procedure. 20 MR. BOLTON: 21 " who has been jUdicially determined to be mentally 22 incompetent, unle the disability has been removed." 23 I I II MR. PRATT: I I 24 I It would be up to the General Assembly, as in all :5 1[1 L PAGE 33 11--------------------- -- -------.---------------.------- .--.-------- ---, I the Civil Practice Act. I 2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I " . or who has been jUdicially determined to be men~ tally incompetent . " That would mean the legislature could pass any law and then a oourt would review it. Is 6 that it--under this language? 7 MR. PRATT: 8 I That's right. I 9 II GOVERNOR BUSBEEI 10 what's wrong with that? TIDWELL: I think we wanted the Committee to realize that this would be an extremely complex piece of legislation that would have to be drafted to implement this that probably 15 ':, <:l never would be used. '::"> J6 ~ "oz' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: J7 ~ Well, then what wo~d it hurt? If you gave the legisti I 18 II Iature the right twenty years from now if they want to I II 19 I: ,II' try and accept the problem. 20 I MR. TIDWELL: 21 II Nothing except why maadate it if it's not going to 22 I accomplish-- 23 I:1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 'i 24 'I We're not mandating it. Ii 25 Ii JUDGE CALHOUN l L ... _ ... _ .. .. ~ _ r--------------------------------------------- PAGE 34 ------------_._----------------------------, II Suppose you have a situation where a man's found not 2 guilty by reason ot insanity of a crime? He's been jUdi- 3 aia11y determined to be mentally incompetent, hasn't he? MR. BOLTON: He's only been determined to be insane at the time of the commission of that crime. MR. TIDWELLr We really don't know what mental incompetence is. 9 I": JUDGE CALHOUN r 10 "z Well, if you want to leave that up to the legislaturei , and--I don't believe-- GOVERNOR BUSBEBr If they don't have to act, in most cases they don't uatil they have to. 1) -3 "'::"> JUDGE CALHOUN: 16 .~... o I don't see that this language would require the z 17 ~ legislature to set up a separate procedure to cover 18 I' whether or not a person i8-- 19 MR. BOLTON: 20 II 21 II well, the reason they're saying incompetent to vote, Judge, is because there ain't no way to declare anybody 22 I: 23 Ii II mentally incompetent, if I under.tand our mental health laws. I just wanted y' all to be aware of the problem. M II JUDGE CALHOUN: 25 !I IIIL_ Okay. Here'. a gu_y who ha. declared as a part of a r---------------_. PAGE 35 --------------~ . special plea of insanity--the jury says he's insane at thel 2 time of the trial. The election's the next day. Are you 3 going to let him vote? I don't believe he could vote, 4 III, I under this. He's been jUdicially dete~mined to be insane.; 5 III , pro<~dure What I'm aaying i8 you oan havo 80mo to dotormint 6 him mentally incompetent which has nothing to do with i 7 voting but which would bar him from voting. I I 8 MR. PRATT: () ii I I:1, I think, Your Honor, that would be an accidental I .- 10 happening. And I'm not saying a thing like that may not 1[' 'z" II I- ('") happen, but this kind of procedure is apt to get away from Q. 'u 12 ~ \I(f(:~Y~~)) r~~~ ~ ,~\=. :::") I f '" I you if that kind of challenge is brought up. that could be raised-- I Another thin~ ! 14 >- :;; JUSTICE NICHOLS I 1: '.'.:"J' 16 ~ a Z 1(~ ~ w 'z" Well, we have the problem on that like at Grady 16 z'" 0z <>: '" 17 ~l tion of rights under the present system by the Board of Pardons and Paroles. And a question was raised by a member of the General Assembly as to whether this was consistent or, you know, whether the distinction should be maintained. All that is said about it is that there is a reason for it in that the potential harm done by an office holder is much greater than by an individual casting a vote. So the Committee just might want to decide whether 18 II 19 II II or not that is a sufficient basis for distinquishing the two standards. il 20 I, MR. BOLTON: II 21 II In other words, the subcommittee said that if you gotl il 22 I'I out of prison and your sentence is complete--this would I,I' 23 Ii include the probated sentence--that you at that time, as 24 II I"i soon as you were out of prison; completed serving your ~-_._-- -, .:- .. J sentence and your probation, that you were then eligible l PAGE 40 --t:- vot~-~-:e4 ~he logic behied ~ha~ va., from a practical 2 .~ae4poin~, ~h. v.y people move aroue4 nov, you cae't tell: 3 whether they've ever had their disabilities restored or I I 4 II 5 I'Ii !j I not. But insofar as an officeholder is concerned, if a man wanted to run--an illustrationw,~s used, 8ay, for :i 6 II county Treasurer, or some office like that--for such an Ii 7 II 'I office, that he had been convicted of embezzlement five 8I ! times, that he should have his disabilities removed before 9 iil' ha would be ~ligible to hold that office. In other words, 10 .., it's not automatic for an office seeker but it is auto- z 11 ... c.: o,. matic tor a voter, is that right? ~@ -".,~ 12 '~.' MR. PRATT: That's the issued which was raised and I thought the 14 .~.. members of the Committee ought to decide whether or not '< 1: 15 .0 ':':""> they'd maintain it or not. 16 ~o REP. SNOW: z 17 :;; I move it be maintained. JUDGE CALHOUN: 19 X second the motion. 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 21 There's been a motion made and seconded. Any dis- 22 cuss ion? 23 I I,I' REP. CONNELL: 24 II II II 25 ~ Why would it be put under the Board of Pardons and Paroles to determine this restoration? r---------.-.-------- _. j MR. BOLTON: PAGE 41 - - - - - --_ - "--'-~'---"---- ... 2 II' That's their duty now. I3 JUSTICE NICHOLS: 4 II What you're in effect saying, that a convicted felon, Ii upon the completion of hie sentence, has a right to vote but not to hold office? BOLTON: That'. right. 'i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: ]0 unless he has his rights restored. 11 "tz MR. PRJI.TT: o <>. "' The last one is-- BUSBEE: Well, what about disposing of that? There,s a mo- tion. "'"";~) 16 ~ Okay. <) z 17 ~" MR. PRATT: Is there any objection? Designation of Crimes. If not, it remains as is. 1I~ !I II ] 9 [I !! II 20 The feeling, by some members of the subcommittee, was that presently it's pretty unclear what a crime involving moral turpitude is. And there are individual instances 211 where there are disagreements and they thought they'd been 22 II giving inadequate guidance to poll officers in deciding 23 III' I II who to register and who's allowed to vote. And, in hopes 24 I!I, II 25 II I of resolving that ambiguity, they wanted to charge the General Assembly with the responsibility of coming up with iL__ _. IT------------ PAGE 42 --~------------1 !I a laundry list of crimes so that they would be some place I 2 I definitely in the Code or in the lawa at to e.actly which 3 4I I'I, 5 11 II 6I i: Ii! 7 !I II 8 1'1 Ii I:1' l) !i ii 10 ,-' z ones were in and which were out. Now, essentially that's! a transfer of responsibility from the Judicial Branch to I the General Assembly. And that's one thing. A reason why --as to not to have a designation made by the General A.sembly in relation to the Voting Rights Act and that is, if we do it this way and the General Assembly passes the statute. And the Civil Right Commission of the Department of Justice decides that the effect of a particular disenfranchisement is to dilute voting power, is the way it's prohibited by Federal law, then they could object to it and the Georgia disenfranchisement would become unenforoe- 14 >- I- able as a matter of law. So it would involved the Federal ~ l? government in a much larger way than if this designation :'"J 16 ~.... o z stays out <>: 17 ;;; JUDGE CALHOUN: .18 sut what if say in this Article now, you say a felon 19 and that's a person convicted of a felony. There's no 20 question about what are felonies. If you leave it that 21 way, I don't think you have any problem. If you're con- 22 23 I viced Cf a misdemeanor, you can vote; if you're convicted of a felony, you can't vote. II 24 ,MR. PRATT: 25 L______ Well, there's an additional qualification. It has to w----- ------.--.-.----- . ..._. ----------. -----~---------.-----.---.-.------.-.-.------- PAGE 43 II be one of the flonies which involve moral turpitude. 2 \ JUDGE CALHOUN: 3I I'II Is that what it says in your other Article? A felony 4 II involving moral turpitude? 11 5 '1,'1 MR. BOLTON: il 6 "il I ." of a felony designated by law as involving moral " turpitude " The question, I think, that the Committee will decide, does this Committee want to take out the words "designated by law" or not? 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think the question is this, that presently it does say a crime involving moral turpitude. All right. Now, that is a judieial determination. All right. Now, they're saying, why not take it out and just let the legis ".l:">: j () ~ "'z" 1 'J ~ lature go through every crime and all crimes that we have on the books anywhere--anybody's crime and designate: "This is moral turpitude, this ain'~ aoral tu~pitude." IX I wrote a case note back in 1949 in the Georgia Bar Journa 19 i and I don't believe that's possible. I think a court is II 20 il II much better equipped on an individual basis to consider 21 IIII II this an~ with all jUdicial precedents and-- II Ii 11 Ii JUSTICE NICHOLS: 23 [i II And probably has already been judically determined. 24 I[ II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 25 11 . .There's case law allover there _ PAGE 44 BOLTON: I move that on Paragraph II, Section II, that the words--Jim, see if I'm technically right on this--~desig- nated by law" after the word "felony,""'-and it would then read "or who has been convicted of a felony involving moral turpitude ... " To cause the words "designated by law Ii 7 II as" be deleted. I' ,1\,1 i! GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Ii So then the--from the Committee version. Is "designated by law" in the Committee version? 10 MR. BOLTON: Yes. That would take it off the General Assembly and put it back where it is now, with the courts--what is a felony involving moral turpitude? ;: REP. SNOW: '< 1: 15 .~., I second your motion :'>" 16 '~" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: oz <:( 17 :;; Let's get this clear. 18 II MR. BOLTON: Proposed Article II, Paragraph II, starting off, "No :: I person who is not a registered voter, or who has bean con- 21 victed of a felony de~igna~ed by law as"--I'm moving that 22 23 III we delete "d4!!liigna ted by law as" so it would read "is con- II ,I victed of a felony involving moral turpi tude," which would I 24 I" il leav. the law--except we did t .ake out some of this arChai] L 25 ____ ~~~gu~ge_ Of-- _ PAGE 45 ---------- --- - - --- ~ - --~~---- ~~~ -~--~-~-~--~~---~ -~-~----- -~--~----~----~---~---~--~------ --------~-----~---- II MR. PRATT: I 2I It talked about bribery, larceny-- 3 MR. BOLTON: 4 !"1 --briberY1 larceny. But we delineated any involving 5 il II moral turpitude and this just makes it clearer. 6 I I GOVERNOR BUSBEEJ I 7 I, All right. The motion's made and seconded. I think I' 8 II II it's clear that the motion is that the words, "designated I' 9 Ii II by law" be deleted, the effect ot which, moral turpitude 10 ;- would still be a jUdicial determination rather than going Cl Z 11 ... ix o a. w through by statute and trying to point it out. " For the purpose of discussion, I'll offer a substi- tute that reads--takes out everything except felonies and 15 ,~ ~ ::> 16 ~ az -<: !7 ~ say, "one Who is convicted of any felony." And you would leave in there somebody who'. been convicted of assault and would not be able to vote until they completed their 18 sentence. 19 MR. BOL'CON: 20 Well, there's a practical reason now that that 21 doesn't--we're dealing with the Civil Right Division of 22 the Justice Department. If we take--just put telonies in 23 24 I 25 IL_ _ there, we're going to--we know--I guarantee you we're going to run head on into trouble. If we take out--Ieave moral turpitUde out, we're going to run into bad trouble ~----_. I on the whole thing. 2 JUDGE CALHOUN: Do you see what PAGE 46 3 Yeah, I'll withdraw the motion to substitute. 4 !i il GOVERNOR BUSBEE: II 5 III' All right. The motion is made and seconded that the 6 words "designated by law" be de~eted and it be a'jd~i~i'l 7 determination. Is there any further discussion? If not, all those in favor say aye. (A chorus of ayes.} All opposed? [NO response.} The motion's unanimously 10 adopted. "z 11 le-; MR. PRATTs .0... 12 ~ ~~ ~~ .....". ~ Now, the last thing was on some technical matters. I know it's dangerous to say that things are merely tech- 14 ; "0: :.:l 16 ~ ow Z 16 ~ w Q do you have a proposal? Z <1 17 ~ MR. EDWARDS s 18 II 19 II' I 20 21 Yes. we discussed this very briefly at the last i meeting and the only point in contention was whether you.rrI going to have just one member, for example, of this Com- I I I mittse on the stUdy committees. And it seemed--I gathered: that the consensus of the members was that it be left up I to the Select Committee itself to decide what to do about I I it. So that part is changed from the version that's in I _i your little packaqe here : __ .:. j~~: ad_~~~_ this sentence to.J PAGE 49 'I member or I members of the Committee to each of the study committees I i created." So it means it you want to have two members on I I it--of the Select Committee on each study committee, you , j can, or whatever. It leaves it up to the Select Co...dtte. And then one other point which we discussed on this I change was to clarify those pay provisions where were a little ambigous when we first started. And these are the !I ') !i only two changes in it. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE I Are you talking about introducing this again this year to make those two changes? EDWARDS: Right. )) ~GOVERNOR BUSBEE: "0): :J ! () r.o ~, :::1 Is there any discussion of those two changes? On the Z J7 ~ resolution? I think again the motion is that we cause thi PI II to be introduced at the next session, all right. 19 il MR. I' 'I 20 :i il 2J I, IilI 221 BOLTON: This would permit someone to of these subcommittees other than mittee? serve as a member chairman of one of this Com- I 23 MR. EDWARDS: I'II 24 II Right. II, II 25 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I L -__ ---------_._------------------_._---- __J I PAGE 50 Or we could have any number? It's just up to us as 2 to what we want to have. 3 MR. EDWARDS: It's up to the Select Committee. MR. BOLTON: I move that we adopt--propose this. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made that the Select Committee sponsor 10 "z II these two changes t~ the resolution creating the Select Committee. Any discussion? If not, all those in favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.) All opposed? {No response., It's adopted. The next thing we have--is that all you have on that? MR. EDWARDS: 15 ., ":':"> 16 'z" aw z 17 c"-: OJ That's all I had. Well, I have--we have one on the effective date of the constitutional amendments I just might mention right now and get that over with. And that' 18 II ii II 19 II 20 II 21 III I' 22 II II 23 II Ii ~4 II ,I l_ :5 II --that was talked about in conn.c~ion with the Article that Al Holloway chaired. Under the present constitution, if you're going to have a different effective date for an amendment, it's got ~o be in the language that's included in the Constitution itself. So all we did here is say-unless the amendment itself--and we added this--or the resolution proposing the amendment shall provide otherwise an amendment to this Constitution shall be come effectiv~_J \1'--'" II II 2 \1 Ii 3 4 III, s I' I 1 6 "II II 7 II 8 II PAGE 51 l on the first day of January folloWing its ratification. In other words, for example, right now under this July I 1st date on the Elective Franchise Article, we're going to have to put that in the language of the Article in the Constitution itself. This will change that so that in the future when we get all these Articles to be revised, we'll just put that in the resolution proposing it without out having ~o put it in the Constitution itself. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 10 All right. So what do you need on that? 'z" 11 6; MR. EDWARDS: o "w'- 12 ~ A motion (~.J) ..,.. '.V~ /\~~-_.- (1-... ~ GOVERNOR BUSBU, that somebody introduce this. -' 14 ~ l- All right. You heard the proposal. Would anybody V> " make that in the form of a motion? 16 ~ a REP. SNOW: Z ) 7 g<;l I move. '1' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 19 ' It's been moved, second? Ii 20 !I REP. CONNELL: I Second. 22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 23 Second. Any discussion? All those in favor y aye. 24 [A chorus of ayes.) All oppsed? [No response.) It's I unanimously adopted. You 're .~~_ing_r~al well; do~o~want r,-- - - - - - -.- - - - - PAGE S2 - - - - ---------_..._. - - - ----_._ .. _ - - - - - - - - - - - _.. _--_. I to stop on that? II2 MR. EDWARDS, 3 II Yes, I'm through. I: ii 4 :iii GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 5 If Ii Well, the next one, Marty, you had a matter, I think, (-) Ii 'I I, to bring up at this time. Ii II 7 MR. HODGKINS: X Ij The only thing I had to bring up was--wayne, at the 9 last meeting of the Judiciary Committee, they mentioned ]0 l? Z 11 I- oe< '-:0_ " perhaps bringing in some out-of-state experts to talk about some of the experiences their states have had in revising Judiciary Articles; scheduling the Article to-- drafting up the legislation and ~ome of the problems that they had run in to. And the only thing, I'd like is, if "a: ~ 16 .Z.. Cl z 17 ~ it would be all right at some point to pay if we have to. Hopefully we wouldn't have to but if we paid their expenses to come and talk with the Committtee. II 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 19 II I, Are' you planning for this Committee to operate until 20 II after the General Assembly? 21 22 II II MR. HODGKINS: Ii YeaA. It won't meet until-- 23 II [I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 24 II !j il Ii 25 Iii1..__ . I think what we ought to do on that is defer this until. w_e_ get through the legislature; see how we've fared - " - - " - " _ . _ - - , . - .. - - - ~ - ~ - - - -~-.---------------.---_._.--- PAGE 53 ---. with the constitutional amendment and then crank up from I there, unless you want somebody to come down here and talk to somebody during the legislature. MR. HODGKINS: No, not during the ses.ion. JUSTICE NICHOLS: Let me throw this out, Wayne, for your benefit and anybody else's information. II I 9 II ! REP. SNOW: 10 Yes, sir. Do you know Bo Cole? JUSTICE NICHOLS: Bo Cole has offered to assist--but anyway, he worked on tftis thing in Alabama and he's an expert in it and he had told me that he would be glad to asslet in any way at 15 ,~ l:J ':"> 10 '11 Z 0 Z -: - '< I That's the one he wrote. J' ~:;MR. HODGKINS: ~; ::> . Ib ~ a~ Riqht. In the Senate Z \7 .X !Xl GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 18 Arthur, what about-- 19 REP. SNOW: 20 I'll introduce the other one in the House if Arthur-- 21 II II 22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I,I' Ii 23 II All right. Is there any objection to Article X beingl , introduced in the Senate and Article II being introduced II' 24 1\ in the House and that staff cause these__t_o_b_e_l._._n_t_r_odUCed? .1 25 1~1~_.~~~OW_: . ....._. PAGE 55 Speaker ot to the Lieutenant Governor relative to the committees that they would be sent to? I think you were going to do that. What I thought we would do was this, I'd like to meet--well, we've got the Lieutenant Governor in here and when we can get the Speaker, that plus these other things. 9 You were walking in as we were dis~ussing what you would 10 do if somebody offered an amendment to Article II--the old Article II or the old Article X. We had about five things and the presiding officer is going to pretty well deter- mine what's going to happen on that. And that and what committee should they be sent to. Would it be to the J 5 ,~ ':'-:">" same committees-- i6 ~~: REP. SNOW: z I'< :t 15 ~ Cl IX :> 16 ~ 'o" Z - :..:.;. J: 15 .:> "'"::J 16 ~ w Q I <.\ 17 :il of the local level. Wherever the money flowed, that entity would be in control of the pension system. As you know, for years and years, the entire county has been pay ing the Teachers' Retirement portion of the Fulton County School System. And of course the entire county pays the City. Now, those folks living in the city are paying bot and from an equitable standpoint, in of and by itself, that's just something that isn't a fair proposition. However, there are many other facets to this argumen between those two bodies in addition to this insofar as services and costs. But the Fulton County delegation was successful in amending it--leaving it like it is wher the General Assembly is a third party involved in it and a local constitutional amendment could be used to correct that situation or change it. They think that without a third party involved, they'll never get it changed and 18 they were reluctant to let it go through like we had it. 19 Ii I: 20 II IIIi 21 I! And that was the main--the major change. Another minor change was two year scholarship provision to accommodate Morehouse two-year Medical School. That was the basic 22 II changes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 24 ! Any questions concerning that Article1 25 i SEN. HOLLOWAY: lI L-_ _,. J PAGE 4 Oh, no. There was one other--very important. You'l 2 recall that our bill placed the handling of tuition for 3 the elderly--free tuition for the elderly on a space- 4I available in the univereity, ve put control of tbat in th1 5 Board of Regents. I met with the elderly and they didn'tl 6 ,II' like that too much. So we compromised the situation by I il" " 7 II leaving it in the control of the legislature and authoriz- Ii 8 IIII ing the legislature to, by statute, maintain control. We II 9 Ii did take it out of the Constitution itself and we have \0 statutorily mandated the Regents to continue that program Czl 11 .... 'o" GOVE RNOR BUSBEE: 0- 12 ~ @". ~. ~ ! AS far as I know, we have no problem at all on that Article or that amendment. Now, if you want to speak to 14 >- ~ 16 ~... SEN. HOLLOWAY: a z 17 :ii They're arguing that same thing on the Senate floor 18 right now. We increased the retirement in the local bill 19 I: 20 I and it went over to the House and amended it for a date-effective date; came back. Now, Todd Evans has thrown 21 that amendment on-~the House amendment, saying, prov~ ~ , "'-'~'- :'er I those people outside of the city limits will pay this portion of the retirement. Of course, we're in a peculiar parliamentary procedure there because we can't committee. It only can be amended __ . J L r--- PAGF~ 5 ----------------- ---- ------------------------, one more time and a few other things like that. \ \i ')1 GOVf,RNOR BUSBEE: i: ! 3H I Any other questions concerning that Article? I Ii 4 II don't know of any action that we need to take. That's IIII 5 more or less a report on the status. That's all we have II 6 II on that one. II 7 !i IIII The next thing we have concerns the recall provision 1\ 8 I' that we were discussing when Senator Holloway came in. 1\ II 9 II And Loyce Turner came down last week and had Charlie Tid- 10 well and Frank Edwards with him and he discussed the fact tha~ they had prepared the four-year term constitutional amendment, together with Senate Resolution 14 that pro- vided for recall of all State and local officials as a package. And under the terms of our Select Committee's recommendation on the Article, that this would automatic- ally be repealed; is that righti MR. 'rIDWELL: 1 .. Tl:at's right. 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 20 In order to change that to another Article. 21 MR. TIDWELL: 22 To bring the Select Committee up to date, at our 2? last meeting there were a series of policy decisions made 24 I'i! on how to deal with amendments that were going to be on 11 II lL _ 25 i! the ballot at the same time as an Article revision is ~takinq place. ' ... ~ '"~,)r."*\. _ PAGE 6 too~=-l And there were five separate policy 2 II adopted to deal with that si tuetion. One was an outriqht I 3 II !i I! 4 l' :1 5 Ii Ii ,1 6 Ii !i 7 11 11 II 1\ III '! 9 '[ I, 11 10 "z 11 loCY. "- 12 "~' @ri 14 ; I':( r 15 ,~ :"':"> 16 ~ o Z -- JUDGE SMITH: ':] r 15 .~ Charlie, let me ask a question. l? '::"> 1() .~.. provision for recall now? a z ]7 :. .~Q~~J12 .u'.". z>= ~ u .---- v> 14 >...-. ~ l: 15 .:> ":':"> 16 'z" Q z - 17 "'" 18 to local government and it didn't apply to State offi- cials and it didn't apply to the legislature. Now, this applies to everybody. It doesn't say it's "for cause." You can just do it. And I have some hang-up about doing that. A constitutional amendment--the other thing was whether you could constitutionally do that by statute. Anyway, I vetoed i t . live've got gov~rnment"', in roy 0,.-.i1liun, theil. ;r ~uu elect a per!'lon. whether it's for two years for the legislature or four years, forgetting that, I think you're going to have absolute chaos if you have local governments whereby you can recall these people without cause just because people are dissatisfied. 19 Well, anyway, Alhas made a motion there that-- 20 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 21 Well, I made this motion based on the fact--the pro- 22 visions of the recall as I thought--what is it? Fifteell 23 percent of registered voters and ten percent from each 24 congressional district has to be garnered before reqall. 25 And then the matter has to be turned down by the General ._-------- PAGE 9 Assembly first as a condition precedent, as I recall, and next, if it's turned down by the General Assembly, then the recall provision is triggered. You have to have fifteen percent of the registered voters and ten percent of them must be from--a hundred percent of them must be composed of ten percent from each congressional district.' So i t didn't bother me that much. MR. EDWARDS: 9 Now, that was in the bill. Of course we don't have 10 L~ Z 11 ... 'o" 'w"- 12 ~ (~~s~J, r~~~ anything right now and what this constitutional amendment would do would be to authorize the General Assembly to provide by general law ~or recall and--well, in fact that s what's in it. 14 .>..- SEN. HOLLOWAY: < To 15 .0 Well, this is not self-enacting, though? :"'"J 16 o~ MR. EDWARDS: z -< 17 ~ No, no. 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE; 19 The way it reads is: "All State, county and munici- 20 pal officials who hold an elective office are subject to 21 recall by the voters of the State, county, or municipal 22 23 t- corporation from which elected. Procedures and grounds for recall shall be prescribed by law by the General A 24 I bly. " ~'-:R. 25 E O.A.ROS , I --.J PAGE 10 ----------_._---------, Now, that's what passed last session. Now, we have 2 revised that language. In fact I think we discussed it-- 3 I don't know whether we discussed it at a meeting with 4 you or not. But Loyce has agreed that we revise that 5 language and make it just say the General Assembly is 6 authorized to provide by general law for recall of public 71 officials who hold elected office. And Charlie--well, I 8 drew two or three versions. Charlie and I have talked 9 about it. First, I had all public officials, which is 10 Czl 11 I- 0: o l>. w 12 ~ ~~ "-~ -~ 14 >I':( J: 15 .:J Cl :'"J 16 ~ ozw 17 :ii what he wanted originally. Now, he's agreed to strike that all out. So, theoretically, if this amendment in its latest form were to pass, then the General Assembly could come in and provide recall for anybody they wanted to. They could single out this group or that group or this group. In fact they wouldn't have to pass one ever at all. It's not mandatory that the General Assembly pas one. As I say, the whole thing is that Loyce, as he Ii 18 I"' 19 II II 20 II 21 I states, in his district has said certain things and that' what his problem is right now. This would be a non-self-executing amendment which would authorize the General Assembly-- 22 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 23 Well, there's no doubt in my mind what the recall-- 24 but what the recall provision, the philosophy of it, 25 lL would aid and abet the passage of the four-year term. I r--:~an you can ~~retc:-th~-tru~h a little bit. I :; I know a lot of that will be said. PAGE 11 But you II 3 MR. EDWARDS: 4 I, I personally feel like the Governor as far as the III' 5 Ii philosophy on it. I just don't like recall period. But 6 II at least this amendment that Loyce is talking about would II leave it up to the General Assembly to pass. 7 II R II JUDGE SMITH: I' 9 II AI, suppose they don't pass the four-year? fl Then 10 you've got a recall facing you within a two-year running. 'z-' 11 l- You could be recalled every year and you're going to be cY. o 0u,- J2 ~ in a mess. ~~!~."." ~ SEN. HOLLOi'IAY: ~-- 14 ,>..- ';'1 J: 15 .~ \.') :':"> 16 ~ aw z -0: 17 ~ Well, I think you're in better shape with every two years than with every four years. Because they might bedice well, we can get rid of him without going through a'l that trouble in two years, where it might be worth ]8 the effort on a four-year term. 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 20 Douglas County of course has a recall provision for 21 county commissioners and it's not the most stable county 22 government we have in Georgia. But it's passed--the ques 23 tion is, it's passed the House and the Senate in their 24 infinite wisdom and I have nothing to do with it PAGE 12 EDWARDS: we don'tl Governor, if I might say one more thing. If 3 do something this session, then the one that's already 4 II passed is going on the ballot. I i I 5 I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I ! 6 Right. Now, what Al just made a motion un, as I II !I 7 !i Ii understand it, is we take Senate Resolution 14, which is 8 the one that was passed that I just read and we chanye il 9 IIII that amendment to Article Ii isn't that right? 10 MR. TIDWELL: 11 12 ~~J 14 15 16 17 0 Z le< 0 t; J: .:l \.'l '"::J Z.'".. 0 z .-: ''"" MR. But I think, to back up just a little. we--that is what could be aone. But in the process of doing that, the mechanism that Frank is using here, he is going to repeal Senate Resolution 14; re-enact it in a different form and put it in Article I. That will be the vehicle that will be used, right, Frank? EDWARDS: 18 Right. 19 MR. TIDWELL: 20 I 21 II The Select Committee doesn't have to do this. Because Arthur's committee addressed the question of Electivt 22 'I Franchise and public office holding and they didn't deal 23 III with recall. 24 :1 BOLTON: 25 I L MRl. We didn't have nothinq to do with this. i ,------------------- TIDWELL: PAGE 13 ---------------------------------, Presumably, that's the--not presumably, but con- cr0tely, what you proposed in Article II to the Select committee and what they approved is what you thought Article II ought to look like and it doesn't have a re- call in it. But I think we're now down to the practical politics of it and we're going to have to deal with this issue one way or the other, either the way it's going through the House now or-- 10 REP. SNOW: Let me ask you this, Charlie. When we pass Article II in November, is there any prohibition in the constitu-\ tion relative to legislation which would provide for 14 >>-'4 recall? l: 15 .:> MR. TIDWELL: <.:J ':":> 16 ~ Yes. Cl Z -<{ 17 ~ MR. EDWARDS: You've got some problems. 18 II 19 II II 'I 20 I,I 21 !II, ~~ Ii ,1 You've got some possible constitutional problems. Right now the only people that have them are county commissioners in municipal charters. And there's some questions about whether you could do it for State officials and for those so-called county officials who have a four- 23 I year term. That was one of the bases used to veto this 24 II bill las t session. 25lI- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I- '4 :r 15 .:J When you change the Constitution, it's rather perma- <.'l '="> 16 zell "az' nent. I don't know how to address the pr.oblem. I think <0: '" 17 Cll when it passed last time, very frankly, I didn't even know 18 II 19 Ii 20 I that it had passed. I knew about the statute having passed and I vetoed it but--if we don't do anything and we went on and passed the--what the Select Committee had 21 on this Article, then that would eliminate Loyce's amend- II 22 ment, wouldn't it? ) ' _.~ REP. SNO~7: Only if Article II passed. Now, the problem that could raise--I don't--I wouldn't anticipate it but it --------------------- PAGE 15 I! could--is that this would create an issue or a cause in II I, 2 Ii II certain areas of the State whereby they said, well, don't 3 Ii I votp for Article II because then you're going to also I 4I vote against the recall. By voting in favor of Article iF 5 i I II. I 6 II JUDGE SMITH: Ii 7 III, You can turn that right around, too, and say all 8 ,i II those public officials will say, don't vote for it until ,1 9 I " you do have a recall. That would be a much stronger war 10 c~y, I've got a hunch, than the other one. Because these things are passed in the courthouse, you know. MR. TIDWgLT: If there's a recall provision on the ballot, I'd bet a lot of money I don't have that it would pass. JUDGE SMITH: Yes, but it does give you something to talk about if they want to raise a ruckus about it. 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 19 But what Charlie's referring to is that it would be 20 meaningless if this Article was passed. And what wayne 21 is saving is our Article would probably pass because a 10 22 of people would be opposed to the rec~ll. REP. SNOW: But of course if we pass this in the House~OdaY, 25 what's Loyce going to do with it in the Senat? ---_._-- PAGE 16 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE' 2I I don't follow this--your 478-1349. It's the same 3 thing as was passed last year but it has Parayrrt!='j, n -there: "In the event an amendment to the Constitution completely revising Article II is ratified at the 1978 general election. the provisions of this Section shall ii 7 ii II not become effective." ii 8 Ii REP. SNOW: Ii, 9 IIii Which is a self-destruct clausl~. 10 MR. BOLTON: Cz1 11 l- oe< This has gotten out of the'Select Committee-field Q. w ~@, ...". i12 ~ and gotten into the pOlitical field. ~?J/ GOVERNOR BUSBEE, 14 ~ We've got the Supreme Court and Court of Appeals and ~t ::c 15 ,~ the Attorney General here. We've got the Legislative "'::"> 16 ~ Counsel here and the Governor's Counsel. a Z I'x< 15 ..:.>, '";:l 16 'z" w 0z 17 'O"J Will be there and it will be messing up the Article II revision. JUDGE SMITH: Now, let's be practical about it. Wayne and AI~ what exactly should we do? SEN. HOLLOWAY: Well, 1 1 m satisfied that Loyce has made a great effort by amending what we already have. You passed it 18 and we have it presently in Government Operations Com- 19 mittee to effect what his wishes are, wouldn't you think? 20 He couldn't amend it, though, putting it in Article I, 21 could he? I guess he could. "~L) ". MR. EDWARDS: 23 He could do it as a sub to this whenever it passed 24 the House. He could do it as a sub to this. II 25 L,SEN. HOLLOWAY: _ PAGE 18 And I'm sure that he will do it. 2 REP. SNOW: 3 Well, let's just go with what we've got. We've got 4 I this on the calendar. I think we'll get to it this after 5 II 'I noon and take it up. And if there's an amendment, we'll 6 Ii II just have to go with it as it arises over there and see I,I' 7 II Ii what the score is then. 8 I;I I MR. EDWARDS: 9 Ii If I could say one more thing. All, you remember 10 Czl 11 ~ o'" Q. w 12 ~ ~@r~ ~ 14 >~ ': 16 ~ I mean there's no question about that. He's talked az < 17 ~ to the Lieutenant Governor; he's talked to the Governor. 18 I think has had Frank talk to the Speaker about it and 19 he wants the acquiescence of the Select Committee in his W attempts to do that. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 22 I thought this was the Speaker's bill right here. 23 !MR. TIDWELL: 24 It was. He was carrying out the policy of the Select 25 III L_ Committee. PAGE 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 2 I don't know-- 3 MR. BOLTON: 4 It would be probably better if we moved it to Articl 5 I because then you'd handle it later-- 6 REP. SNOW: 7 Have you already got an amendment to move it to 8 Article I1 I'm going to have to present this afternoon 9 if we get to it. 10 MR. EDWARDS: '"z 11 I- @;;oet: 0w>- Well, Charlie and I need to talk some more about a couple of these last two things. I don't have the final thing right now. 14 ~ REP. SNOW: l- V> < :t: 15 ~ I'll just ask the Speaker to hold off on this until '"et: :> 16 ~ woz tomorrow. < 17 ~ MR. TIDWELL: 18 I think it would be better to let Loyce do that and 19 y'all go on with what you've got if it's going to come up. 20 REP. SNOW: 21 Okay. 22 MR. TIDWELL: 23 Let him handle it. What about that? M MR. EDWARDS: 25 That's fine. PAGE 21 MR. TIDWELL: 2 If that be the wishes of the Committee. 3 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 4 I so move. 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 6 All right. Your move is to let--just let the resolu 7 tion go as it is to the House and then Loyce can offer 8 an amendment if he so desires to move it to Article I? 9 SEN. HOLLOWAY: ,- 10 .., Yes, sir. z II Iet: GOVERNOR BUSBEE: o 0.- j) ~ ~ ~~ All right. The motion's made that--that--that-- ~ri SEN. HOLLOWAY: 14 ; I- well. the Committee would have no objection to-- '<"l: :J: 15 .:> GOVERNOR BUSBEE: "et: ::> 16 ~ waz The Committee would have no objection to the Senator < 17 :::; offering his amendment to move it to Article I when it 18 gets to the Senate. All right. Second? 19 REP. SNOW: 20 Second. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 22 Second. Any further discussion? If not, all in 23 favor say aye. [A chorus of ayes.] All opposed [No 24 response.] Good. Now, we've got down to--on some other 25 IlL_ _. business, you asked me about th.e retirement amendment, _ PAGE 22 House Resolution 39, John Greer's Retirement Age Amendmen 2 where it says there will be no mandatory retirement age 3 in Georgia except for--you would have a mandatory retire- 4 ment allowed for State Patrol, for state Game & Fish-- 5 MR. BOLTON: 6 Has that passed both houses? 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 8 No, sir. It's passed as House Resolution 39. John Greer passed it in the House. How is that going to affec 10 "z 11 ~ '0" MR. Q. ~~r12 .u''".". iz= w U V> 14 .>..V..>: :r: 15 .:> ":':"> 16 zco w 0z ..: 17 'c"o this-- TIDWELL: All right. John's amendment is an amendment to II Article X. So we--here we're faced again with concurrent ly an amendment going through the General Assembly deal- ing with an Article that's being revised and we have thos five policy tools that we can employ. Of course one of them would be--the first one is that they be killed. In 18 other words, you would try and kill John Greer's H.R. 39. 19 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 20 We didn't succeed to well in the House on that be- 21 cause it's already passed. 22 MR. TIDWELL: 23 Right. Then the second alternative would be the same 24 thing that we're talking about here and that's the self- 25 destruct provision to add on toe John's--we can deal with PAGE 23 ~hn's amendment now because it's in the breast of the 2: General Assembly and place a self-destruct clause. 3 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 4 well, the only way you're going to have a self-de- 5 struct would be to include his amendment in mine--in 6 article X. 7 MR. TIDWELL: 8 Right. 9 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 10 Otherwise you don't need a self-destruct. l!J Z 11 ... 'o" MR. TIDWELL: "w" (0\ i12 ~ , ~~)~~ coo",... SEN. 14 ... You could do that. HOLLOWAY: You see the only thing that precludes if from fittin ~ I 15 .0 into our Article as it now exists is the numbering of the l!J 3'::"> 16 paragraphs. The only way we could do a self-destruct is cz. 17 ~ for us to agree to include it in our Article X and that 18 would have to be done a member of the House. 19 REP. SNOW: 20 Allright. Why don't you amend the House Bill'or : 21 House Resolution, then, in the Senate when it comes throu h 22 Senate Committee to be an amendment to Article X if it's 23 adopted? 24 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 25 [ Right. And then, John, I'm sure would agree to our ---------------------------------' PAGE 24 putting a self-destruct to his in the House. But now 2 let's get to the politics of it again. Do we think such 3 a law would pass? Do we think the two Houses are in favo 4 of such a law? You know, being the people's representa- 5 tive, I only want to do what I think the majority of the 6 people want to do and I'm not so sure about what they 7 think of this bill. 8 JUSTICE HILL: 9 To refresh your recollection, there's not any way 10 you can force an elected officer, I don't believe, a man- Czl 11 l- oDe 0.. w e)~i datory retirement age. But you can give them a retiremen system by which they elect to come under that retirement system and if the constitutional amendment were to invali 14 ~ 16 ~ wo GOVERNOR BUSBEE: z ..;: 17 ~ I don't know what to do on this thing. 18 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 19 What was the vote on that in the House? 20 MR. HODGKINS: 21 It received a bare majority--12l. 22 MR. BOLTON: 23 Anybody move to reconsider it? 24 MR. EDWARDS: 25 No. PAGE 25 SEN. HOLLOt'1AY: 2 Well, it needs a lot of cleaning up. I need to read it and the language--I'm not a lawyer but I passed the third grade and it needs a lot of work on it and we might 5 end up by not passing it. We might clean it up and not 6 pass it. I've had that happen couple or three times. 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 8 Wouldn't we be in this position? Can't we just go 9 on and pass on both of these as a Select Committee recom- 10 mendation, which is in the form of a Resolution. Then if Czl 11 .... o0< either of these pass, we'll just have to amend the resolu- Q. (~-~JI~ 12 ~ tion that's already passed to incorporate them. SEN. HOLLOWAY: 14 .... I didn't quite follow you there, Governor? What? V'> J: 15 ,~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: <:J 3:':"> 16 In other words, if--take, on this recall, that if Cl z 17 :::i they go with the speaker's amendment-- 18 II SEN. HOLLOWAY: Ii 19 II 1 Well, we've already moved on that and put it--we 20 I1I1 approved it going into Article I. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 22 Well, you said, approved it. You just said that we 23 were going to proveed as is. We're not injecting ourselve 24 at all and Loyce Turner can make the amendment himself on 25 the floor of the Senate. That's all we agreed to. We've PAGE 26 not really taken any position except to tell Loyce that 2 we're not going to object to him making that ,attempt. 3 We're not endorsing; we're not condining; we're not dis- 4 avowing it. 5 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 6 I think, then, in this second agenda, all we need to 7 do is to give--is for this Committee to give us authority 8 to incorporate in the Article X bill a self-destruct in 9 the event this passes the Senate and we'll just hold it 10 on a time-basis. If it fails the Senate, we've got no problem. If it passes the Sena~e, then we've got to get a destruct clause in our Article X; isn't that correct? MR. EDWARDS: No. Put it in this amendment. Put it in the manda- 15 .0 tory retirement amendment . Cl o! ::> 16 'z" w MR. TIDWELL: Q Z ..: 17 ''"" Put it in John's amendment. 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 19 You put it in John!s amendment, that in the event 20 it passes-- 21 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 22 Well, what we could do, of course, we've got to 23 clean this up a little bit. That automatically sends it 24 back to the House. If it passes the Senate, then all we 25 U- have to do is put a destruct clause on it in the House. - - - --------- PAGE 27 MR. TIDWELL: 2 AI, what would be wrong with, while you\re cleaning 3 it up, put the self-destruct clause in there? 4 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 5 See, it's after the fact if it passed the Senate. I 6 don't want to influence the judgment of the Senators re- 7 viewing that legislation any way as having the blessings 8 of this Committee. 9 MR. TIDWELL: 10 Czl 11 l- et: e. o "12 ~"' _~ SEN. Well, I just raise this caveat. That if you do what you say. it's liable to get back over to the House and somebody's liable to forget that self-destruct on there. HOLLOWAY: 14 >- 16 ~ "oz' 17 ~ Well, then, we all ought to be fired and fire a heap of folks we've got working for us around here. If we forget it. Well, that would seem to me that way to handle it and I think we can move this thing in the Sen- 18 ate right quick to get the feel of the Senate on it. And 19 if it passes the Senate--and of course we are going to 20 amend it in the Senate--if it passes the Senate, than all 21 we have to ask the House to do is incorporate the self- 22 destruct clause and we can do it and we're home free. If 23 it doesn't pass the Senate, our problem's over with. And 24 we have not unduly influenced the bill from this-- 25 MR. EDWARDS: n------------------------- ---------- PAGE 28 Well, let me raise one more point, Al, on that. Wha 2 you're talking about--this mandatory retirement things is 3 cleaned up and passes the Senate; gets back over to the 4 House with the self-destruct provision in it that says in 5 the event that Article X is ratified, then this mandatory 6 thing would be-- 7 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 8 That's right. And then we move the whole Article X 9 somewhere until a point where we can incorporate this in 10 article x. 'z" .. 11 .... 'o" MR. EDWARDS: a. 12 : @r~ Well, we can move this into Article I, matter. 14 .>..-. MR. HODGKINS: '< 1: 15 .~ That's what I was going to say. Couldn't we just <..:> :':":> 16 ~... o amend it while you're amending it in the Senate? Z 4 17 ~ SEN. HOLLOWAY: 18 Well, I don't know. Is it germane to the Article? 19 MR. EDWARDS: 20 Well, we've got the same problem as far as politics 21 is concerned that we've got with Loyce Turner's recall, 1 22 think. 23 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 24 Well, no, I don't. Because, you see, we recidified 25 the Constitution placing as best we could germane items in PAGE 29 ._------------------, the proper Articles, all right, as best we could. So in 2 redoing Article X, we had to dip into nine other Articles 3 even after we recodified. So if it's any germaneness at 4 all to Article I, we could justify it. If it's not, we 5 can't justify it because we spent a year or two just re- 6 codifying. And now we're uncodifying our recodifying. 7 MR. BOLTON: 8 That's exactly what I was thinking. We're amending 9 it as we're trying to perfect it. 10 MR. EDWARDS: Yeah. But at least we're getting these two Articles that we're revising in the shape that we're trying to get them into. REP. SNOW: Instead of just having a self-destruct clause in it- in this--I mean if it passes the Senate--mandatory re- tirement, why not also say, in the event that this is 18 II approved and it shall be placed in such and such--or in 19 II the event that Article X is approved and it shall be 20 II placed as Section such and such in the revised Article. 21 Otherwise--and then also have a self-destruct clause in 22 there. 23 SEN. HOLLOWAY: 24 25 1L Couldn't that be done, Frank? That would stop one process of amending Article X. PAGE 30 MR. TIDWELL: 2 There, you're talking about puttting it in something 3 that might be and it might not. 4 REP. SNOW: 5 Well, but if it's not--if it's not, then it will go 6 on and pass. It just goes on and becomes an amendment to 7 the present Constitution. 8 I, GOVERNOR BUSBEE: II 9 II You want to say something, Marty? 10 MR. HODGXINS: lz:l 11 .... 0: o Q..... @;i I just was going along with, Frank, that while we're cleaning it up, wh~ don't we just put it in Article X right now? 14 ; ~ REP. SNOW: <0: :x: 15 .:> l:l It has nothing to do with Article I. 0: ~ 16 ~ 'Cz"l MR. HODGKINS: 17 ~ There are a bunch of things on Article I. You don't 18 have to be forced to retire-- 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 20 Yeah. That could come under the Jill of Rights. 21 Why don't we just provide in here that it be in Article I 22 if it passeS1 put the amendment on it. If it passes, let 23 it go. That would be the simplest thing and not--any 24 objection to doing that? Or is there a motion that we do 25 that? / / PAGE 31 MR. EDWARDS: And then you're forgetting about the self-destruct thing altogether? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Just provide that in the event, you know, AI, when y'all put it in the Senate, that it be put in Article I. I 7 II SEN. HOLLOWAY: II 8 II Right. !, ii 9 :1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: " 10 Let's make that in the form of a motion. "z 11 I- o0: "w- 12 ~ ~~~~)~\)~ 14 ~ lv..>: J: 15 ~ "0: :> 16 ~ "Cz'l ..: 17 ~ JUDGE SMITH: I move. REP. SNOW: Second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All in favor--any say aye. (A chorus of discussion? ayes.] All If not, opposed? all in favor [No response.] lR It's unanimously adopted. Anything else? 19 MR. HODGKINS: 20 Th~re's only one other thing and that was--we had 21 talked about recreating a commission--a special commissio 22 to incorporate amendments just like this. Frank and 23 Charlie and I kind of got together and drafted some stuff. 24 Do you want us to go ahead and introduce that? 25 SEN. HOLLOWAY: PAGE 32 What we should have done when we were recodifying 2 is added another Article--a catchall Article. That's 3 what we should have done. 4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 5I Well, what Marty is saying, should we have one of II 6 the committees that we did when we passed the Constitu- 7 III, tion recodification that would allow them to recodifv any 8 i" i II changes. I think we ought to go on and get some vehicle.! i 9 [I Ii it thf I think it was myself and--who was'it on that? Was 10 Attorney General and Secretary of State? z" 11 l- oet: REP. SNOW: 0- w @r l12 ~ I move that we do so. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 14 ~ "'::":> 16 ~ ozw < 17 ~ Okay. It's moved that we have the same type codification special commission there to recodify any constitutional amendments that are passed, to make them consistent with the action we're doing on these two Articles. 18 Second? 19 JUDGE SMITH: 20 I second. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 22 It's seconded. All in favor say aye. ~A chorus of ayes.) Opposed? II 24 I' then? l25 M._R_._E_D_W_A_R_D_S_: [No response.] _ Can you ge~ it drafted PAGE 33 Right. Do you want to decide where it's going to be introduced right now--in the House or the Senate? SEN. HOLLOWAY; well, we'd better get it in the Senate because of the seven-day provision. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Go ahead with the Senate and just give it to Al. Any other business? Is that all, Marty? MR. HODGKINS: 10 Yes. Czl 11 ... et: .oQ... 12 ~ (~~ ~;~!J~ CI/""". ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, we're adjourned. [Whereupon, the above-entitled proceedings were adjourned 14 .>.-. at 4:05 o'clock, p.m.] ~ :t 15 .:J -000- Cl '"::l 16 .Z.. C E R T I F I CAT E oz 17 ~ I hereby certify, as the court reporter, that the 18 II 'i 19 II il Ii 20 I statements that appear in the proceedings were taken stenographically by me, and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me, and that this transcript is a true and 21 accurate record to the best of my ability. 22 23 I II 24 I 25 I IL_ DARLENE F. AKINS, CCR Notary Puhlic, Georoia, Slate at large My (."".,'.,.,,,," Expires ""J:). 3. \980 INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on Feb. 15, 1978 SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 2-15-78 Proceedings. p. 2 ARTICLE II: VOTING AND ELECTIONS SECTION II: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraph IV: Recall of public officials holding elective office. pp. 5-21 ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH SECTION X: RETIREMENT SYSTEMS, and ARTICLE VIII: EDUCATION SECTION VII: EDUCATIONAL ASSISTANCE. pp. 2-5, 21-31 H! TING or' SELI:CT emu,1 r TTl~J': ON CONS'!' J TUTl O~J1'.!, REVIS 1 ul~ 1'J(~<1JIE'sday, J1.11 y 11, 1979 Governor's Office MEMBLHS PRESENT Governor BusLee Charles Tidwell, Executive ~uunsel Speaker Murphy .rudy!..> Deen 1 Attorney General Bolton Senior Judge Calhoun Senator Hollo't;ay Representative Connell Senator Overby Representative Snow !1EHBLRG ABSLNT Lieutenant Governor Miller Chief Justice Nichols 11 l" h/I I' ... 1"''',lli'l( KII'ul: I i',(; , 1.'-lI.IS2 " !' :, i' I I, \ I I( ,"J'> - I I ) :', \ ! '. I II \ ',I I,ll' I, " \1; I, 2 r GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 1 ' m going to call the meeting to order ! and I'll ask Charles Tidwell, if he would, to call the roll. I I MR. TIDWELL: Governor Busbee? I I 1 'I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Here. II < [I MR. TIDWELL: Lieutenant Governor Miller--he's not here; III (0 Ii: he sent word that he could not be here. I: .., I. ,i.i Speaker Murphy? I t\ i' SPEAKER fWRPHY: Here. 'I MR. TIDWELL: Chief Justice Nichols--I believe they're III holding court today. I I ,. "(l c Judge Deen? JUDGE DEEN: Here. MR. TIDWELL: Attorney General Bolton? ATTORNEY GENERAL BOLTON: Here. I ~ -' '." ., Ih " '~ () l. - " I ::1 I, MR. TIDWELL: Senior Judge Calhoun? SENIOR JUDGE CALHOUN: Here. MR. TIDWELL: Senator Holloway? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Here. I" MR. TIDWELL: Representative Connell? ,. 2(1 " I' REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Here. 21 MR. TIDWELL: Senator Overby? ,, SENATOR OVERBY: Here. MR. TIDWELL: Representative Snow? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Here . 'oj 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 I HR. TIDI.-JELL: TIHC' are two absent. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You were mailed a copy of the minutes "I of the last meeting of the Select Committee which was held on : January the 4th, und I'd entertain a motion regarding the minute 1\ I: [Hotion made from commi ttee member.] ii I f) A motion was made; is there a second? !--- I ..., .., .--. I - -. 1-- 1 r~ r-~ 7I [Motion seconded from a committee member.! ~ Ii Motion m~de and seconded; is there any objection? I, IQ ii, [Negative response.] I 10 If not, the minutes of the meeting of January the "z .. J I ~ 4 th, 1978, are approved. o ." 12 : Let me kind of give you an overview of things that /~,-'!iYf{1\ ~ ~~~J(!'!"~' ~ have happened since our last meeting on ,January the 4th, 1978. _.. 14 >-As you recall, Article II and -- which was on the election !;; <: T 15 .~ franchise; and Article X, the retirement and scholarships, which l' ,~ OJ Ih [were approved by the General Assembly at the 1978 session, sub- o T 17 ~stantially as they were submitted by the Select Committee, were r~ I .., I~ rI ~ ,--. ,"< i defeated in the November, General Election. I, III I think there are two things I'd like to say about :n that. One is the need as we come out with these Articles, ~I I! better public promotion of the Articles by the Select Committee II !.: and we discussed this, I think, some of us individually, and, I. I . Ii !3 of course we don't have all the problems on the next genera 1 Ii 24 election we had than the last one as far as the number of con- I, ,<; IiI 'stitutional amendments. The House, and the Senate are holding I "\1 T 4 down the amount of constl tutional amendments, and I think we If ., i~ I! will be able to focus in on these and all of us promote them a i' .~ II lot better than we did in the past . I 4I But, the promulgation and the promotion of them, I 5 think are very important. I' The efforts though, that we make, and that the i Articles Committee make are really not going to/beneficial, and IF the legislature makes when they adopt them are not going to be (I j beneficial unless we come up with an overall program to promote \ll the passage, and I think we're 90in9 to have to do thi s next " 11 2 November. o'" .".".. 1; ~~ We had the resignation of Marty Jodgkins which was ~:~~~~ ~ ~VJt . on May the 1st at the creation of the nominating committee which -- 14 ~ consisted of myself, the Lieutenant Governor, the Speaker, the ",( 15 o Attorney General and the Chief Justice, and that's about the ":'."> 16 ~ status of everything that I know that has happened since we last az ,( ,., ;; me t. IX II Now, we had previously set an agenda when we origin- I II) ally organized, and subsequent meetings, as to which Articles ,n I tha t we were going try and pass in 1980 in the general elections ~I ! and which ones would be in 1982. Now, we have met with some of , , our staffs, and some of the Select Committe and their staffs, :.1 concerning the priorities we had, and I would like to make one suggestion after talking with some of you individually, and that is, that we change what we had initially done with the judiciary J J ] -l r """I r'-l 11 . " rather than trying to po :,s that at thi 5 se ssion, when I don't I: 1 , IiI, think we can -- there i~; anyway that we can address the judicial Ii ; and pass it at this session of the General Assembly in the way -l II of a constitutional amendment with what we've had in the past 1 :i 5 ! and to realign that and give about an equal amount for 1980 and 6 1,1982, and put that -- and for us to work on next year. ii 'I 7 II Now, if you did that, that means -- in this session ~ !Iwe would be resubmitting Articles II and X, which failed, but, ,I II o Idon't know of any change that anyone has even proposed any of ),} those has there been? ) I ... ..~ o c.. Has anyone proposed a change? [Negative response.} Anyway, if we could just resubmit those and the wor ;:is already accomplished as far as this Committee is concerned; ~ been. o l 16 !'"go with the schedule, and I'll hand out a copy to each of you, .o7. 17 ~and we'll adopt this schedule. I IX I That means we'll have in 1980 we'll resubmit , I IQ I Articles II and X, Article I, Article III, Article IV, and i 20 I Article V will be considered by the Article Commi ttee and taken !' 21 p" up by the Legislature at the next session. We'll defer until 22 "next year -- the next year for submission to the people in '82, 23 Article VI, VII, VIII and IX. I Now, the 11l)Xt thing I want to bring up is the nominat- .'" ill'! COllllllilll'I', <1llcl ['m going to calIon my Executive Counsl.d, I' \' ,I 10 II'I Charlie Ti dwe 11, to repol. t on wha t they I vo been doing on our- !/ ,I behalf. MR. TImoJELL: If the Committee recalls the methodology on the other three Articles you were working on, was that the Select Committee appointed the chairman of those three committee:: and then that individual chairman picked his own committee, and there was nothing wrong with that in the results that came, :~ because I think we had an excellent committee; but, as the think- I } I ing developed, when all the remaining article committees would 10 be constituted and would begin their work, we felt--and the "z " .~ Governor discussed it wi th some of the members of the Se lect :J >.. ~Committee that a change in methodology might prove beneficial, .~- r. ,~in tha t there wou ld be a coordinated effort to try and ge t as I ~broad a representation of members on the Article Revision Com- f t I~)..,,mittees as would represent geographic distribution, ethnic dis,> J~ ~tribution, representing various interests that ought to be on () 1 1~ ~the various articles, not having duplication of legislative I~ members on there, and that would have been difficult to do if )'1 we had had six or eight different committee chairmen not doing it. 21 And, that seemed to -- that idea seemed to meet with ,,.,the approval of the members that the Governor ran this idea by, ~.1 i so it would crea te a nominating commi t tee consi sting of the I 21 II Governor, the Speaker, the Lieutenant Governor, the Attorney -' I: , . i Genera I, and the Chie f Justice, and they, in-turn, de signa ted I,. ,. \ I, I'; 11 p- II agents to really do a lot "f the nitty-gritty work for them i, subject to the approval of their principal. 3 The Governor named Norman Underwood, his executive ~ secretary; after Norman left, Tom Perdue, Tom Daniel, and myself 5 kind of shared those responsibilities. Jim Pratt, Assistant h Attorney General was the Attorney General designee; Lee Perry 7 'the legal aide to the Chief Justice was his designee; the Speaker H had named Frank Edwards as his designee; and Lieutenant Governor 9 Miller never named a designee. 10 .., And, these -- in addition these all of Frank's staff II 2 continued--Frank Edward's staff continue to work with us and we ,"(,, .~.~. me t, 1 i te r a 11 y , hundreds of hours trying to come up with the ,. ;~proposition and composition of these Article Committees that u., 1 .;,:would represent who we thought should represent these areas of .\ ::t I:) .c), interests, and yet still have the kind of calibre of people that ";, Ih ~would be knowledgable and able to write an article of the con- e> .( 17 ~~ sti tution. I~ You have before you the end product of that result, JI I 1'I we -- the designees wound up their work just last week, and then reported back to their principals, then their principals adopted the recommendations with a few changes, and I think we're going to have maybe one here, in addition to that. 23 So, that was the methodology that we used and you ~ ,"I Ilhave them here and we can -- all of us, I don't know everybody .~~. !I III on here, but I think all of us that worked here collectively can 1'- ",\LI'; 12 perhaps answer any question that you might have of why somebody , II is on here or why somebody was left off or why , II GOVERNOR BUSBEE, Do you have a l i st -- does everybody ,t ;1 have a copy of these? 5i MR. TIDWELL: They all have it. ,I SPEAKER r1URPHY: I don't have a question, but I have a 7 statement on the Bill of Rights--on number 17, Carroll Dadismon ,from the Columbus Newspaper. You know I appointed him to the IQ finance and disclosure commission and his employers would not 10 let him accept that, so he very well may not be able to accept it. ".. I I le< MR. TIDWELL: You might say that none of these people have () .c... .;...;been contacted, of course, because it would be premature for us .: ~ ~to ask them if they will serve, in the event the Select Commit- I .~, tee should see fit not to have one of those on there; so, gen- r 15 ;~erally, we thought their availabili ty was there, Mr. Speaker, ":> 16 ~,0 but, we we'll have had r ~ 17 ~you know -- some people that may have moved since, 18 :1 SPEAKER MURPHY: I offered him that and he wanted to take II )9 I'it and his employers would not let him accert it. ~(I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask, you've got a good point, ~I !;YOU know, since there's no way these people could be contacted " 'IIahead of time to see, if they would; now, wha t if we approye, like 23 I rn the Bill of Rights, the people that are on here, and you have' Ir14 ne like say, Carroll Dadismon, might turn it down, now, we need 2'; lito have the authority, I think, in the nominating committee to 13 III" fill any vacancy without coming back to the Select Committe~. 'I I,I JUDGE DEEN: I so move. :1 .i [Hotion seconded from a committee member.] iI ~ I:!' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. The motion is made and Ii II seconded that on any Articles Committee that is appointed, so '! t> I you have a member that declines, then the nominating commission I can fill that vacancy or that spot without coming back to the Select Committee, okay. All in favor say aye. 1(1 [Majority responded with, aye.] All opposed? [Negative response.] It's unanimously approved, all right. How do you want to consider these, Article by Arti- I~ ~cle or do you all just want to take time to read them. Let's ":> 11 1(, !; look at the Bill of Rights and see if you have any comments on Q "To . 17 : i t . We can just consider them Article by Article if you want, I~ '! the Bill of Right.s. ," III While you are looking over the list, I do want to Ii . ., ilI' ':ll commend all the people that worked on these recommendations, they ", ~ I !did literally spend hundreds of hours and he put it very kindly :1 ,, 'when he said that they were our agents. ... -, .' :1 ,i JUDGE DEEN: I move that we adopt the Bill of Righ ts. II'I :~ , JUDGE CALHOUN: Well, I second it. " :) :1, GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Judge Deen, seconded by Judge Calhoun 14 ,. \ I :: recommended the nominatiun of the Bill of Rights has recommendec. All those in favor say, aye. [Majority responded with, aye.) All opposed? [Negative response.] 7 It's unanimous. Article-- Well, next it will be Article III, the Legislative 'I . I: Branch. (0 [Motion to move from a committee member.] "z. 11 ,e< GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You move. Second? -- a nomination, I I) 0- (~:)~)r""- ~I~ ~'" don't think requires a second. That is a nomination to move. ~,.~ Is there any discussion? '- IJ ~ If not, all those in favor say, aye. n 1: 15 .) [Majority responded with, aye.) ,."".:~ 111 I~ All opposed? I) Z t 17 :~ [Negative response.) r III It's approved. I III Executive Boards and Commissions, Articles IV and V. :n I I MR. TIDWELL: I'd like to make the comment here, we ~ 1 :qithought that those two Articles ought to be treated by one com- ~I ,, , 'mittee since they dealt with the same SUbject matter, although , 1 they are two different Articles, and everyone seemed to kind of ~-1 I.' aq. ree. That wa s why they are toge ther, ra ther than havi ng two ~~ ;icommi ttecs working on two articles. Ii J 15 SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The only thing I notice about this. one, .., !: I don't notice anybody from the Administrative Branch on here, ,. .J i ~ Ii Governor. Certainly, I think you ought to have a close liaison 'J Ii 1 IjWith the workings of this committee. .J ~i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'll tell you, I've looked at the list, 1 IiIi 6 I mean, and I've had in-put with it. I think you've got some 7 Ii good private citizens, legislators, but -- I'm not worried aboul 1 ~ I: any balance, there's no department addressed in here. It would i ~ i, be very difficult to just put a department head on it, I don't ..l.. )I) know l 1 .-.~ _.-. I J .. o" SENATOR HOLLmvAY: Well, I'm talking about from your stat 0- w ~~~'t('# 12 ~ ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE~ That's all right. I don't want anybody .('. . )'')\ ~~=-2/\r--' .E;: I ".,..... ~ ou t f 0 my 0 f f l.ce on .t 1 . 'l ,.. MR. TIDWELL: Some of our thinking Why department heads 0{ r I~ ~and constitutional officers weren't put on here, if you put one "i.< ::> IG ~.J) everybody would say, why can't, you know, I o 7- 0{ I' ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I f I'd ask anybody out of my of fice, Charlie's observation is well put. I'm satisfied with it. II Is there a motion and a nomination? r] SENA'l'OR HOLLOWAY: I so move. "'-. [Motion seconded from a committee member.] ,,. '1 .... ! .~ :1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, it has been moved and second ~.' II:1 f or the nom. lna. tlon 0 f Artl.C 1e IV and V be approve d . All those I :.1 in favor say, aye . .' 'i I! il [Majority responded with, aye.] r All opposed? I [Negative response.] 3 It's unanimously adopted. Okay. Taxation. :;, I SPEAK ER MURPHY: I want to move to ~dd Don Casselberry h the Taxation. 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me kind of bring up something and I 8 i!be informal on this; after the so-called agency gotten back to 'I~ the people on the nominating committee, the Speaker said he had lU some understanding he would move to put Don Casselberry on it ': ! 'I ~now, this only brings up one point, unless there is an objection, "" (t~~j1)\r'~.~'.!' ) ~ .~, I 2 ;:c:1 wouldn't think of this, but, what about the Senate, you've ~'; got three Representatives and three Senators, does that make any "=> " I ~ ~difference to the Senate, do you think you all are going to add ~t J~ ~the one you've got? ", 16 .J "" SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Not with the numbers we've got. SPEAKER HLJRPIIY: The membership of the Taxation mernber- Ii-: i ship worries me right considerably, because a great, great II III I majori ty of the membe rship of that Artic le mcrnbe rship is from 'large areas of the State. 1 don't think a constitutional majority ! would pass this thing, that one worries me to some extent, I admi t that. I :~3 ! i 'I II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Looking at the balance that you have "'..1 IIi and a lot vf these people are representing associations like I ~:; I,-- I think you have some balance to it, you've got, I mean i I r- 1'\ ,I 1 7 ,""I 11 like Ed Killorin, I kno~ he's from Fulton County, but he i II I, represents the Georgia Forestry Association; you haVe a lot of II ,, -- " other people; but, let's act on your motion first. i ... You move that we add Don Casselberry--Representative Don Casselberry to it. Is there a second? I) [Motion seconded from a committee member.] All right. Motion made and seconded that this list H I be amended to include the name, Representative Don Casselberry. I q :1 All those in favor say, aye. 10 [Majority responded with, aye.] " II ,.,. All opposed? ..".,,) ~~0r~", .. '- _/ ,./, J2 u ,. 7- "V' Jf ,.. ,~...... 'r ,- ~ .~ [Negative response.] It's unanimous. He's added, Don Casselberry. Any other additions or deletions? [Negative response.] f.( :0 I (, 'z" a~ 7. If not, all those in favor of the selection of the !" ~ ~ REPRESEN'l'A'I'IVE CONNELL: We were just discussing this :> Z 17 i... (0:~))r~~!'!! ~ ~?-Y1J'd, I : .~.. members there, but what do you all think about it? SPEAKER MURPHY: Our Representatives, we've got two from ",-~,/ 'j I -.- H!~ Fulton and one from Richmond, we really need to add somebody ., GOVERNOR BUSBEE: \vell, can you aJ 1 get together, can :'"0 n If! :; you all just give us one more Senator from a rural area? II Do you want the book just to refresh your memory? I" JUDGE CALHOUN: Governor, I notice you have two people J<} from Valdosta on here. :0 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: One is from city government and -- .~... '! I 21 JUDGE CALHOUN: And, one is from the Area Planning and 1 ,I , , ,I Development Commiss ion, but speaking of a representa ti ve from a ,: small area, Valdosta is not really too small, but James Beck, who was a long time mayor, very active in the municipal associa- "J.II tion, and now I think he'd be a good representative. " Iii, ~J I I (Several names of potential representatives were men'" !i tioned amony the commi t teemen.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've had recommendations on Article 4 IX, that we add Senator Hodge Timmons and Represen ta ti ve Warren Evans. All right. Is there a motion that Article IX, with -; those two addi tions be ado:?ted? I "' I SPEl\KER MURPHY: So moved. I II(J GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second? 1C' [Motion seconded from a committee member.] II .... a: () .".-. 1: : ~J~r'" j I~ ..>.~ .-. This presents the problem after we get Robin of 16 ~'" assembling this personnel, and I'm going to recognize Senator z - ~. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well, this throws this over -- the VI ~ J: 15 ~taxation goes over until -- you know, until after the next l' , :'"> 16 <~:l session as far as this constitution is concerned. , ,1, o z :l. ~ 1.~ ~ ) (\/~~~~St.V.ljJ/':)/1 /i~"\m,= ;~.:, ',_._~~-_/ / j 1 ,. .' .L J5 ~ I..~ ;:, ., 16 ~ w ., <~ [ 'e< f' ik 19 I ,~D HR. ROBIN HARRIS MR. MELVIN HILL MS. VICKIE GREENBERG HR. MICHAEL HENRY OFFICE OF' LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL: HR. FRANK EDWARDS MS. CYNTHIA NONIDEZ OTHERS: MR. CHARLES TIDWELL MR. HAMILTON MCW}IORTER JUDGE DOROTHY BEASLEY JUDGE SYDNEY SMITH !'1m. HAROLD CLARKE REPRESENTATIVE ALBERT THOMPSON MR. THOMAS THOIillE-THOMSEN 21 I n PAGE 2 ---------- " I I \ i i 23 ~'4 ) '. LL.-._~. . ..._._. . __ - ..---~-- - - - , __ I . ...... --- --_._-----------------' PAGE 3 ---------------------------------- - - I ~--------- PRO C E E DIN G S l I l ~I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We're going to have a few that I i,l I I ; i 'I are going to be slightly tardy because of the hearings upstairs i Ii ,I ! but we'll go on and start and I'll call the meeting to order. I The first thing, I'll calIon Mel Hill to call the I I h roll at this time. ,.~ , ,I MR. HILL: Mr. Busbee. Mr. Miller. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Murphy. <:) .: I I ~: r.,: '::1 ~ . 12 a:: '~l SPEAKER MURPHY: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Nichols. JUSTICE NICHOLS: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Deen. '- 1 ,.~J '"':;:1 1., ~ a z 'I 'I' :g JUDGE DEEN: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Bolton. MR. BOLTON: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Calhoun. JUDGE CALHOUN: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Holloway. (No response.) 2' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: He just walked out. MR. HILL: Mr. Connell. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Overby. SENATOR OVERBY: Here. i I ____JI ir----- II 2 II Ii I' 3 I! I"lR H}\.RRIS : Mr. Chairman, before we get into the 4 prepared agenda, I'd like to give an opportunity for just a 5 couple of minutes to Judge Beasley, who would like to extend 6 to the members of the Select Committee a special invitation. 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Dorothy? 8 JUDGE BEASLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 I'm coming to you this afternoon as the Program Chairman for the Judicial Convocation. The Institute of z':'> 11 .... 'Q" Continuing Judicial Education plans to set the second Judicial Q. w ~~r~~ ~,.S.. VU~\ 12 ~ Convocation with the Georgia judiciary in Athens at the Georgia :-: Center on January 28 and 29. Some of you know about it already, i - 14 >I- t;, because you are going to be speakers and are going to introduce 1: 15 ~ others. :'"> 16 ~ It's going to be for two days, January 28 is a Monday and Tuesday. The legislature, I am advised by Ix Representative Snow, will be in recess. It will start with 19 a Monday luncheon and he will be the speaker at that time. 20 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Since I saw that, we may not be 21 recessing. -,-, JUDGE BEASLEY: You promised. At any rate, it ,,,ill .,... , ) conclude on Tuesday afternoon in the middle of the afternoon, so it will just take one night, but we would like very much I c~, -" . for those that are on the Select Committee to attend if they ,L_~__.__ ~. .. __. ~_.... . ._. __~ --_._-._-~-_. __.- - - - .--_._.....- - - - - - - - - - -. -.-- ----- .. --~-._.----~-------~ PAGE 5 11~~hether you're a judge or not, because it will give you an , :1 II opportunity to see where the judiciary is going with regard I, 3 II il to the Judicial Article. I ! If you can attend the whole thing, we'll be delightedl I to have you, and you'll just have to let me know and we'll make the proper arrangements. -, ! One of the unique things that they're going to have actually two parts of the program -- the first thing will <) a profile of the existing judicial structure insofar as we 10 .., are able to know what it is. We have been working on that for z 11 ~ months and have not found anyone place where there is a o "w'" (~~0r=!.'- ~ ~~ J2 ~ profile except through the National Center for State Courts, ;: so they will be presenting that part of the program. Also, we \.:~~//) I ~-- J4 ~ will have a cost analysis of the present structure, including r 15 ~ what the state pays as well as the local governments. :'"> j 6 .~.. Another unique feature will be that each administra- ::l Z 17 ~" tive district will be we'll have cross jurisdiction of all 18 the judges, which has not been done before. Perhaps this is : ,) the first time there has been a convocation of all the judges 20 . including the JP's and mayors and so forth, and we hope that :?J . you will be there. ,) I want to tell you how important I think it is for 23 you to see where the judiciary is coming from. I am now on jury duty. Today is the first time in my entire life I have 25 PAGE 6 rr-------------- ------------------ ---- - ------------------- - __.- ---_._,---_._-~_._--~.~. Ii see things from the other man's point of view. If you will 2 II corne, you will understand a little bit better perhaps where II II 3 IIIi the judges are corning from in regard to the judicial article. Ii 4 .i Thank you so much. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Thank you, Judge. 6 The next thing we had on the agenda was a synopsis of the meeting of July 11th. On the back of your agenda is a synopsis. You can glance at it now. If there are any q corrections to make, we'll hear them. This was sent to you. 10 Any corrections? ;J L 1! ,~ o .- 12 : ~@ "~'"'~ (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, this is approved. Now I'm going to calIon our Executive Director, 14 ~ Robin Harris, now to give us a general report concerning the < l: 15 ~ activities of the various Revision Committees. ':"> 16 ~ w MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman and members of the Select o-z ~ 17 ~ Cornrni ttee, at your meeting last July you determined that you 18 wanted to go forward with modernizing Georgia's Constitution 1Y ion an article-by-article basis and you set certain time I 20 .tables. \ To accomplish this end, you elected certain committees! 22 , to be responsible for different articles, chose an Executive Director, and authorized a staff. Your directive to us, your 2\ . staff, and to the committees was that you wanted Articles I, 11,1 I ~~ :11, IV and X ready for submission to the --------- --- - ----- - 1980 Session -o-f -th--e- -----~ ~ -~---- PAGE 7 ~-Gen~ral ~sse~~;:-"Y-O-U- ------furthe r -d --------. etermined that -VI---i Articles 2 II through IX would have a target date to be on the ballot i.n 3 II November, 1982. \ 4 Let me say that you could not have chosen a finer :1 I 5 II group of Georgia citizens than the ones you selected on the :i 'I 6 II II various cOlnmittees. They responded to the charge given to " 7 11 them, have met as often as needed oftentimes at personal x sacrifice, have debated the issues, and present to you !i I ') 11 !I formally today the results of their efforts. '- 10 CJ Z Between August 29 and November 30 the committees 11 ~ and subcommittees met for a total of 1,183-1/2 man hours -- o "- v 12 "~' person hours, if you will -- and staff time of your staff, ~J.'~' ~ ~ ~ the Legislative Counsel's Office and Mr. Tidwell contributed -_._' ; 14 ~ another 3,200 hours to this effort. '<", J: 15 CJ Objectives sought by you were brevity, clarity and ('";. :'"J 10 :'" flexibility. As to brevity, the six Articles in question a ? <' 17 ''""' currently utilize 2,794 computer units in the Legislative Counsel's computer. If adopted in the proposed form, these 19 ,I Articles would OCCU?y 1,279 computer units, or a reduction of 20 54%. 21 It is our belief that the work products alBo add to clarity and flexibility. The chairmen of the committees on Articles I, III, , , , I, I ! -t IV and V are here today and what I would like, if it is agreeable with the committee, is to call on those chairmen to I i ---,---_._----~-----' _ . _ - - - - - - ~----_._--- .- -----------------------P-A--G-E--8----l I' outline to you briefly the contents of the Articles they 2 I supervised, respond to specific questions that members of the I, j , 3 Select Committee might have as to particular recommendations, 4 and the rationale behind those recommendations. 5 Representative Thompson was Chairman of Article I, 6 !i Article III was Harold Clarke and Articles IV and V were under a committee chaired by Judge Smith. Now whatever procedure you would like to have us follow, we'll be happy to follow. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to just "z 11 ~ hearing from the Articles Committee Chairmen, in order of the o Q. w @ . . . . !12 ~ Article? (No response.) i I 14 ,.. :;; GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, we'll call on Representativ~ < I: 15 ~ Thompson who was Chairman of the Article I Committee. :':"> 16 ~ ow You want to come up here where you'll have a table? z 17 ~ REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Members of the Committee v 18 our idea in revising Article I was to retain all the basic 19 ! rights and benefits that the Bill of Rights has traditionally 20 had for the citizens of this state. I think we have done just 21 about that, because I believe we have retained almost every basic right that citizens have. I want to certainly express my appreciation to the 24 staff because without the type of backup that we had from the _- staff it would have been impossible to do this particular job. _...-.-------_._-- .- -_._- --~---_... _ _._----_ -- -_.- -- ..~-------.-- _. ..... - - - - - - ' PAGE 9 We were not particularly assigned the Preamble, but famil~ 10 thing in the Bill of Rights which would indicate that it is z" 11 ~ .'0Q"... still public policy of the State of Georgia to retain the I ~~ ~ ~ ~. 1 ') l~ u'.~".. as a unit. So we added into the Preamble some words, quote, ClOT''''O "the importance of the family If , and if I can find that I'll I I 14 ~I read it to you so you can see exactly what that does. ! V"O T. 15 ~l "To perpetuate the principles of free j5 ,~ ;;, 16 z'Xl w government, insure justice to all, preserve Q Z <>: '" 17 'Xl peace, promote the interest and happiness of 18 the citizen and of the family, and transmit 19 to posterity " 20 We added those four words Ifand of the family" to 21 indicate what the public policy of the State of Georgia is, 22 and that's the only change we made there. 23 Coming on down to 24 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me interrupt just a second. I ~ PAGE 10 11--Chang~-:~ i :~:~la~ned-:d i~--:~:e-~~~:y-question we' 11 _.~ :1 2 !i just stop at that point and then continue, so we won't have I I 3 to go back. 4 I think you have heard the change that was made 5 there, to include the word "family". Is there any question on II SENATOR OVERBY: I'd like to ask, Mr. Chairman, what 8 I!ii was the reasoning back of that. II 9 Ii II REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: A gentleman from Augusta 10 was very concerned about the deterioration -- that's the 11 ~- <>: impression I got -- of the family, and he felt that by putting o 8@-- ".". . "w" 5V ') 1_ ~<>: those words in there, it would be indicated that it is the CJE;;;:J r - - -r- / ~ public policy of the state to retain the family as a unit. / I I 14 >- ~ think it went even a little further than that. We're getting ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, go ahead. "." :::> 16 .~.. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Due Process and Equal az 17 :i Protection. Basically the only change we made here was putting IS the equal protection phrase into Paragraph I of Section I. 19 There is, as I understand it, at the present time no reference '20 to due process in the Constitution. 21 There's one other thing that we did with that ~ 'I, "-~ 'I particular section and that was to indicate that there could 'i 23 Ibe no violation of a person's civil rights based on race -- 24 :'1iand the change really is sex, etc. and religion and so on. !, 25 I'I ,This tracks basically the language of the 1970 Constitution, . LL_~_~~._~ ~_~ ~_______________ --i -----l PAGE 12 r ---------------------------------------- -----------------------------------_.- 11 which the Judiciary Committee got through the House of 2 II Representatives in 1970; i t was drafted in 1969, it passed . 3 II,I the House of Representatives at that time in that particular I 4 III I form. It didn't get through the Senate. 5 I Those are basically the changes in Paragraph I. ! 6I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any questions on that paragraph? JUSTICE NICHOLS: I have one on that. As you say, 8 we have no due process clause in the Constitution, but under 9 the protection of the property of citizens the books are full 10 of cases and when we have, it's true, the equal protection ~ "z 11 ~ clause giving it the same treatment. What I am concerned about o "w- 12 ~ now is if we put this in the Constitution, people are protected ~"-'" ~ now certainly by their constitutional rights in the federal 14 ~ court but with the work and the caseload that we're having now, <;; :x: 15 ~ we're trying to divide it up, can anybody be accused of being a: :> 16 '~" a Pollock, he's got a case now coming directly to the Supreme 7 < 17 ~ Court, he was fired because he was a Pollock. I just use that ]8 as Ii an illustration. Sex, or anything else, we've got all these 19 III cases now coming to the Supreme Court and it'll just be an 20 I!I influx, overwhelming as I anticipate. I 2] ! MR. BOLTON: Mr. Chief Justice, we're adding sex in 22 here, is this an ERA amendment? JUSTICE NICHOLS: It sounds like it to me, I don't 24 ; know, it looks like it. I'm not unalterably opposed to ERA -- MR. BOLTON: I'm just trying to know what we're doing, 4 II'i, sex. I just have no objection to that, I think that everyone's I s IIi' civil rights regardless of race, religion, sex or what-have-you, 6 ,III'I ought to be protected. I Ii! ! 7 Ii JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think they are being protected, I: 'I 8 " that's my point. Ii 9 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm not trying to bring up an 10 argument on ERA right here, but I have been asked for me to ~ 11 ~ construe it and of course I'm in the wrong branch, I can't, ..:' "- 12 "~' but I think under the current provisions of the Constitution ~~~/"~~ ~ ~s~, ~ you have already held that you can't discriminate because of 14 ~ these reasons. But I think the question is, you know, with ~ r 15 .:, ERA and things that have already been voted by the legislature -' '.":> 16 ~ that are considered by them, is this going to bring that up, cz I! -< g; Albert? What was the committee's feeling? ItVu REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: The committee felt this 19 !was proper and appropriate and they did not go into whether or 20 ,not this could be construed as an equal rights amendment, it I 21 ,i was not discussed in that particular light. Some people would 22 construe it that way, but the words are plain, they're simple 23 :!and if that makes it an equal rights amendment, I just can't 24 see anything objectionable to it. If we're doing it anyway, 2) 'what's wrong with saying that we're doing it? I ---------------_. ------- _ _.. - ' r,-. --- lPAGE 14 2 :~;:::::B::~LE::::::a:: ::~:-:-:-:-:-m-e-nts that I 3 II have heard from many members of the General Assembly in I 4 II opposition to the ERA amendment is that we want to do it on , 5 il the state level, and it appears to me that's what we're doing I 6 Ii, here. II ilIi 7 SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I introduced a state equal rights ~I 8 ii amendment bill and both sides were very much opposed to it. 9 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'll be very frank, my analysis is 10 the same as what you just stated, I don't see where it brings z~" 11 ~ it up at all, I think it's just a current provision of the .o0.... 12 ~ law as construed in Georgia and this is not expanding that to ~ ~)r ~~ the federal level. All right? 14 ~ REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Mr. Chairman, the first time 15 ~ we ever discussed this particular provision, at that time the '::"> 16 ~lXl ERA was not even a matter of controversy in this country as far az 4, 17 ~ as I know, I don't think it was. 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well isn't this the identical 19 language that passed the House? 20 MR. HILL: Yes. 21 MR. HARRIS: In 1970. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't think this ties in the ERA -"~ ; at all, I think this is the identical language. 24 i 25 '!I: two. JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Chairman, let me make a comment or I I Having authored Georgia's Woman's Jury Bill, hopefUl~ ~~t-- 1 would not discriminate against women. I PAGE 15 But the I, 2 II iI Fourteenth Amendment, I believe, to the United States i I'II ! .~ !I Constitution says that no citizen shall be denied equal I, I I 4 protection of the law. I don't believe it goes into race, sex,1 i ' 5 II national origin, religion, and so forth. Now I have no I I b \i objection to the race, national origin, religion or ancestry 7 II!II' but putting the word "sex" in after we said "and of the I family": i, I 8 :! in the Preamble, that we are promoting the family, there s a I 9 ,I United States Supreme Court case, Bell Terry, which ruled that \ 10 two people of the same sex would constitute a family, not 'z-' 11 ~necessarily in that particular zoning case, but I would have o "w- i2 ~ grave concern about putting the word "sex" in there even though ~J~ ~the ~SV~ ~ majority of you may be correct but at this particular time 1 ,4 ~I with ERA, this would be doubtful and questionable as to whether ': 1(, a~> two of the same sex. lihether or not some federal court or z: 17 ~some court could say all right, Georgia has put the words 18 absolute equal protection of the law as to sex, it could be , (J I J construed that -- hopefully not by Georgia courts -- but some 20 court could say two of the same sex could get married. So I 21 would oppose the word "sex" but I would have no objection to : the words race, national origin, religion or ancestry. 23 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Select Committee at this time 24 I I can propose any amendment. 25 , JUDGE DEEN: I would move to delete the word "sex" in II.' .L-. __.__.. ._~_~~.~. .~ . r PAGE 16 ----------, 1 that particular paragraph I, leaving the rest intact, although I, :2 I"i it may not be -- I, 3 il'l Ii GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You made a motion to that effect? Ii 4 ii JUDGE DEEN: Yes. !I 5 "II,I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Ii ii 6: the Select Committee? ii Is there a second by a member of II 7 :, (No response.) Ii 8 I"i II 9 Ii second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That motion dies for lack of a 10 Is there any other motion? "z 11 .- 'o" JUSTICE NICHOLS: 0- ~H 12 ~ whole thing be deleted. @(~~~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I would like to move that the Leave it 14 .>-- JUSTICE NICHOLS: Leave it like it was. I just ': don at think we can improve on the bill of rights. "'"::l 16 ~ ow GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chief Justice has moved that 7. 17 ~ Paragraph I be changed back to the existing Constitution of the 18 !i Bill of Rights. 19 II "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, Ii 20 or property except by due process of law. n il 21 "I, Ii Is there a second? .:2 I'I MR. BOLTON: Itll second it. ",..' ..;;, GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. 24 i Now discussion on that motion. 2) II! motion? L,... -- - --- -------- J Anybody care to speak on that _ ------ JUDGE CALHOUN: PAGE 17 ---------- --------------, I'd like to offer an amendment to that motion. Maybe this is not the proper time. There's a change made also in Section II, Paragraph III which says 4 "Protection to person and property is the paramount duty of 5 IIIi government, and shall be impartial and complete." If we delete Ii 6 ",I the proposed change here, we ought to re-enact that change. II 7 Iili Of course, I guess we can come to that. 8 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We'll come to that at that 9 I'Ii paragraph if that suits you, Judge. 10 .., JUDGE CALHOUN: Yes, sir z 11 oote- JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's my intention, and let me 0- w '- @;:i say this, Governor, I'm not opposed to the ERA, I'm just saying we're already taking care of this and I can see just an 14 ~ 1;; over-abundance of cases piling into the Supreme Court on 1: 15 ~.., frivolous cases, civil rights cases, just like I said awhile IX :> 16 ~ ow ago, someone would be fired because he's a Pollock and then Z ~ }7 ~ we've got a case coming direct to the Supreme Court. 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion 19 of the motion? 20 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Let me make one statement. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Representative Snow. 22 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I intend to vote for the 2J motion and I'm going to do it for one reason and I want to explain it because I am very much concerned and interested in 25 IL,[' th.e re.v... ision of this Constitution, but I see that with _some _ PAGE 18 ::::~~:~W::::~w::::-::~:::~:::~:::::,b:tm:::::e:::::::~:;~ the passage of what otherwise is a very good Article and good I 4 ' preparation, and I would hate to see it go down the drain in I I a general election because of some over-reaction on the part () of some groups that were over-zealous. I support it for that 7 : reason though I don't believe it would have any real adverse k effect as far as the interpretation to be made on it. I do 4 I think it could be misinterpreted by some groups in the state 1(..J and I don't want to give them any ammunition. ., 1J GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion on "o,'." ~ J2 : the Chief Justice's motion? @/'''''. ~ Yes, Mr. Speaker. I ..;' > SPEAKER MURPHY: He wants to go back to "Paragraph I. ~ < T: 15 ", Life, Liberty and property No person shall be deprived of .~ ';(' ::J J(, '~"' life, liberty or property except by due process of law." Is z ~ 17 ~ that what he wants to go back to? i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's right, the existing I~ !! Constitution. 20 I JUSTICE NICHOLS, We've got case law on tbat, plenty protect~o4. 2J i of cases have been decided interpreting that as equal ) ; The books are full of them. 23 SPEAKER MURPHY: May I ask the Chief Justice a 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker. PAGE 19 ~~- ~URPHY ,l I - - -- -SPEl J() '~" thing a not only through the General Assembly but by the people z 17 ~ and I think this language may have some great part to play in that. And I am a vivid opponent of the equal rights amendment, J9 as everyone knows, Mr. Chief Justice. 20 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: May I say something? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Thompson. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: May I defend a position tha~ 23 iwe have taken to some extent. I know I'm not a member of the i Commission and I feel like I should be limited as far as what I say -- .... .. . i .. . 1 ~-------- - - - - - - -- - - ------- ----~------------ PAGE 20 Ii GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, no, you go right ahead. We :'. (IIi appreciate the work that you've done, you go right ahead. i: 3 ,I II REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Speaking on what the I 4 ! Speaker has just said, the suggestion that we do this came i 5 : very strongly from the League of Women Voters. It was not I in the first draft that we did of this Article, this Section 7 I'm speaking now about the portion pertaining to sex -- the 8 ,: strongest request for;inclusion of anything that we have 9 ! I within our Article came from the League of Women Voters that 10 had to do with that one Article. 1J ~ u o cu, 1.2 ~ (~~~~,r~~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any other questions? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to ordering 14 >- :; the previous question? ~: I J S .:> ',-,"' ::::l (No response.) 16 ~ a GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chair hears no~e, the previous 7. < }7 ~ question is ordered. All those on the Select Committee in 18 favor of the adoption of the Chief Justice's motion to go with 19 Paragraph I as it exists in the present Constitution, raise 20 your right hand. 21 SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Question. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, question. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: His motion was to delete the I I 24 recommendation? I ________~~~_~~~~!~SB~E~__~e_~_=~:__=_~~_ re~~~=_~d~:iO_~_~~~~ J PAGE 21 ~ticle Committee and -- 2 Ii SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I I And go with the present -- 1 II .< I J GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And go with the present constitutit II <+ i That I s your motion, isn t tit? I ii:i I 5 ,i JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's right. i :1 (, ,I SPEAKER MURPHY: Question. I :1 i 7, IIIi GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. 8 II SPEAKER MURPHY: The present Paragraph I or the ]1 9 II whole Bill of Rights? 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, just on Paragraph I. "No "z 11 le< person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property except o c.. t ~ ".:r'. by due process of law." That's the motion. All right, all those in favor of that motion, raise your hand. 15 ,~ ' ':> e< :> ~6 ~ "'z"' 1/ :;; (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five. All right, all opposed. (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is adopted, five to J'J four. 20 All right, go ahead. 2J REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: The next substantive 2:- i change is indicated in Paragraph II on libel. The paragraph has been rewritten to cover civil as well as criminal libel 24 and clarify the effect of truth as a defense. The provision 25 I concerning the power of judges to grant new trials in case of Li_.__ ~ .. ~~ ~. -~------~~--------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ' PAGE 22 a conviction was dropped as being unnecessary in light of 2 Article VI, Section IV, Paragraph VI. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion on thatpoint? 4 (No response.) .5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, go ahead. There's no substantive change there, is there? MR. TIDWELL: Didn't you jump to Paragraph V? REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yeah. There are some 9 :1 other changes, I perhaps had better follow right straight on 10 through if I can the draft of the Article. Paragraph II and OJ Z . 11 ~. '"C.I Paragraph III, Freedom of conscience, we changed some things n. ' 17 ~; in there. For instance, the heading of Paragraph II is (@Jr" : Freedom of conscience; the heading of Paragraph III originally .,._..... I.-l on was also Freedom of conscience, but we changed that to <: 1: 15 ':; Religious opinions and freedom of religion. Paragraph II reads, nEach person has the natural and inalienable right to worship God, each according to the is dictates of that person's own conscience and no human 19 authority shall, in any case, control or interfere . " What 20 we tried to do -- the only change we made here was instead 21 of saying nhe" and nhis", we used nthat person", we tried to i ..... '1 1 put neuter gender in the thing so as to not reflect man. Paragraph III -- I think these two are really :'4 , basically together -- "Religious opinions; freedom of : religion. No inhabitant of this State shall be molested in ~ :. . 0"_- __ .__._~. .__~ - - - - - -. . - - - - - - - - . - . - ~ - - ... - ..---. ir--~- -----~ ---_._--_. PAGE 23 11 person or property or be prohibited from holding any public I _ II :i office or trust on account of religious opinions; but the Ii I 1 ~ right of freedom of religion shall not be so construed as to I I excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent 5 with the peace and safety of the State." GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any questions on that? 7 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Paragraph IV. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: We changed the language iU "Liberty of speech" to "Freedom of speech and of the press "z t i ~ guaranteed. No law shall be passed to curtail or restrain .oQ... l ", :,; u the freedom of speech or of the press. Every person may ~?Y-~\ (~~j))/'!C...;D :~ speak, write and publish sentiments on all subjects but ~:=~/I ";1 :: shall be responsible for the abuse of that liberty." V> <' I : 5 ~l Most of the changes there were grammatical really. ~, ~ .~ i) ,.." :: I don't think that changes the substance. ,:;, 7. ': ,-"] C1 :I ..::l GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you, J. ust ~. n t h e '~nteres~I of time, let me just ask if there's any objection to the Committee's recommendation and if there's not, is there 20 objection to it being adopted by the Select Committee without " having to go back through it. stop. JUSTICE NICHOLS: GOVERNOR BUSBEE: JUSTICE NICHOLS: There's one over in Section III. I Well when we get to that, we'll I Oh, I thought you were talking ______~ __ ~ ~_~.~ I I I I ~~i PAGE 24 rr------ ~-- -------~------- -----------------------------------------, I ;i about the whole -- I Ii i I,!' 2 :' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, I'm just talking about -- .\ like we've already taken up in Article I, Paragraphs I, II, 4 III and IV. All right, now we've already taken corrective 5 ! action on Paragraph I. Is there any objection that we adopt h the Committee's recommendation on Paragraph I as amended by 7 this Committee, Paragraphs II, III and IV? 8 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not -- the Chair hears no ;0 objection and they are adopted. ,1 Z J j .- Now we'll start that with V and 1 1 11 do that each :: j 2 ~ time. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Libel is the one that the Notes and Comments -- what I was doing originally was just 15 ,~ going through the basic changes. That's the one that was ", '::"> 16 ~ changed so that it applies to civil and criminal libel and it ,-, :z. < 17 '"-~ clarifies the effect of truth as a defense. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on V? 19 (No response.) i' i 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. There's no substantive 21 I change, is there? You have any concern about V? ,-, MR. HARRIS: It has been moved from where it was. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I understand that. Is there any objection to adopting Paragraph V on Libel? (No response.) PAGE 25 GOVERN;;BU~~EE: Th~ ~hair h~ars ~ none ,- t '-:- adopted .1 2 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VI, protection I .\ of citizens, there are no changes in it except the removal of I 4 a period. 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? I 6 (No response.) I I 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph VI is adopted. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VII there are I g I no changes, right to keep and bear arms. I IU GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? Just renumbered, V 7. renumbere~. 11 :;; isn't it? o I w"- 12 ~ REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Some of these are /~...'-6--V-"I..' (j., ;;;: -- \'lI(.U_)-!-((\!\!'!-"" .. We thought that they were more logically I ~~:-:J - I I 11 S GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any obj ection to paragraPhl <\ 1: [5 ~ VII as recommended by the Articles Committee? ~" I -' 11) r:; 'e.z.' j 7 1; (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. 1i-5 Paragraph VIII. 19 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VIII, Right to 20 assemble and petition. There is basically no change in that. I I I ), ._ 1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Just in the wording, I mean you ;1 22 I' If just transposed your words is all? I REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes, that's right, IIby I I 24 'I petition or remonstrance", we think that's a little better I, I I location. lL._. . .. . . - - . , - - - - - - - - - - - ------------~.-----.--~. - - - ~ rr-- -----~~-- !] Ii Ii I , , i: ~, \! "' PAGE 26 -, GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraph VIII? I (No response.) I i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph IX? REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph IX. There are (-, ,i no substantive changes in Paragraph IX. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting g Paragraph IX? <) (No response.) II) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph X. iI REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph X, Right to the ,:->,- ,) (/~"~',..~.-sJ-rv"<~~'''- ~'!!'. ~. ~.:. courts. This one caused person shall be deprived quite a bit of discussion. "No of the right to prosecute or defend either in person or by an attorney that person's own cause in any of the courts of this State." We removed the language "or both". Justice Bowles felt that the language "or both" was causing a lot of conflict and trouble in the State, particularly in the appellate court because we have a situation where a person was being appointed counsel as an indigent and representing himself at the same time, and who was chief counsel, who had a right to object, who had a right to direct the case, who was principal counsel. All of that came into question and we felt that by removing the words "or both", we eliminated that question. The person could still be, at the ." discretion of the court, provided counsel to assist them but ._--".--. - - - PAGE 27 he ~~~~~-:~~-~~.this conflict between who was ~hi~f counsel--l I 2 would not arise the way we called ourselves redrafting this. 3 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any question about that? I I JUSTICE NICHOLS: Let me commend them on that becaus, they did away with the Burney case that split us four to three I f) which said a person could represent himself and have counsel I I I '7 too. You cause chaos in the trial courts. i i I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think what you've done is, under ') the present Constitution as interpreted by the courts, a iO person has a right to counsel if he's indigent, he still has "z ; i -3 this right. He has a right to defend himself, but he can't ::..- ;~;9Y!1,h ~ ~ elect both and create what was caused in this case and that r- ('~ ~" ... ...\\ \ I\ll'-_)j ) 0 .. " ....0 ~~ was the intention of the Committee. \ ....:~__ . .: / i , ' Is there any further discussion on this? L (No response.) ~ " J (, I~ oW GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to the z < 'C"D adoption? (No response.) 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's unanimously adopted. Next paragraph? REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XI. Searches, seizures and warrants, no changes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adoption? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. _. - - - - - ~._-----~-------_.. !~ -" --', PAGE 28 Ii Paragraph XII? Ii I" I :' I: REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XII, Benefit I J II I: of counsel; accusation; list of witnesses; I compulsory process; i 1 trial by jury. The basic change that I can recall in this is 5 that the defendant must be furnished with a copy of the o accusation -- must be, regardless of whether he requests it or 7 not, and a list of the witnesses on demand. That's the basic change in this paragraph. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion? 1U (No response.) u, 11 IX GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to the (j a.., /- --- (\f~~~~?-'Y~!:-\:~3\J 12 enn",. J adoption =~~: of this paragraph? (No response.) '------ 14 > rfl < I' 15 ~,, XII? ,-" :J 1(l ~ ,~, z~ [7 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph -- what is that REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XII. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: XII is adopted. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XIII, Habeas corpus. We took out the language -- or at least we added in 2(: I: the language from a previous Constitution. There was some 21 dispute here because I personally favored just saying that n "The writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended. 1t But the ':1:'.'' Committee in its wisdom thought that this was traditional language Il unless in case of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it. 1t And they added that to the PAGE 29 fr--- i habeas corpus provision. ..~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion? l (No response.) I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there any objections to Paragraph XIII on Habeas corpus? (No response.) '7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XIV, Paragraph XIV. SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I ask a question there? If) ,, 0' i I J-. ('J 0.. w ! +~ ~ ... GOVERNOR BUSBEE: On XIV or XIII? SPEAKER MURPHY: On XIII. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, XIII SPEAKER MURPHY: Who is going to order it suspended? JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's what I wanted to know. 1 1:) ~ <:J "': -:;'1 ,;;:: j (1 1 ':l MR. BOLTON: The Governor. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, let's go back. Is there !"1 '" objection to us reconsidering the action taken on the adoption I>' of Paragraph XIII? '0 (No response.) 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's reconsidered. All 'I ,j right, Mr. Speaker .) SPEAKER MURPHY: It ought to say who is going to suspend it in case it's suspended. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't -- you know, I'll be honest :'~ , about it I'm not supposed to express myself~-=,ut_=-_- ._ _1 I iIr ----------------------------- ---------------- SPEAKER MURPHY: You go right ahead. PAGE 30 -i II ) iI SENATOR OVERBY: I have a motion to make on that. Iii' 3 ii GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Why don't we leave it like it is? I' 4 I I don't quite see -- you know, this concerns me, to suspend 5 the habeas corpus like that. SENATOR OVERBY: I have a motion, Mr. Chairman. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. ~j I SENATOR OVERBY: I move that it be amended to read :1 9 I "The writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended." \0 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, a motion is made. Is "z there a second? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's leaving it just like it isn't it? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Is there discussion? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Paragraph XIV. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XIV, there are basically no changes. "No person shall be compelled to give testimony tending in any manner to be self-incriminating." GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's just language I think. Any --' n----"--~--~-"----------~-- --~ ---------------- 1 IIII question on XIV? PAGE 31 2 il (No response.) 'I 3 \1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to the adoption of XIV? i!i " (No response.) t) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. 7 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XV, no chage. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to adopting XV? 10 (No response.) 11 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XVI? o 'J.. w !.: i I, /\I~(~,L:";J:i.~'J'1!),'r\-'~~'.!.'~ '" ':! ?: Z 5 person REPRESENTATIVE THOt-1PSON: shall be put in jeopardy of Paragraph XVI. life or liberty II No more than . ,,,"//.Fl " ~ once for the same offense except when a new trial has been <-( 1: 15 ~ granted after conviction or in case of mistrial." We just :':"> ]6 '~" tried to straighten out the language. z 1'7 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Any discussion on XVI? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the 20 adoption? (No response.) 23 , Treason. ':,:1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. All right, REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: There's really no changes in that. "Treason against the State of Georgia shall consist . _~-- - - - - - --~--------~- PAGE 32 r~---~--~- ------~---~-~-~-~----- -----_._-------------------_._-_._------_.--, \ II of insurrection against the State, adhering to the State's i II i ~ IIi' enemies or giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be i, II 5 Iil' convicted of treason .. " It's a matter of changing the '1 <-+ grammar in there. :) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: XVII, is there objection? 6 I,:I (No response.) 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, XVII is adopted. XVIII. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XVIII there are no changes. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption of XVIII? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chair hears none, it's adopted. XIX. 15 .0 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XIX. "Neither banishment '.:> '~" lG ,~.. beyond the limits of the State nor whipping shall be allowed o 2 <: 17 ~ as a punishment for crime." Change of language location. l~ II 19 II of XIX? Ii 20 Ii 1: 21 I' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Chair hears none, it's adopted. XX. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XX. Involuntary servitude. 24 ! They took out "slavery" because they thought that involuntary 25 i servitude included slavery within the State of Georgia and_~~_~~ 1.-'-- __..__ _._. ." __,.. _.__~ __._ _. ~ .__ - - . - .. -.--.--------~~~---.----~ PAGE p---~-~-~--~~ . I II left in "for contempt of court". !I 1,1 2 ii GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on 3 I,i Paragraph XX? 33 l I I 4 (No response.) 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXI remains the same. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Objection to XXI? !() 'z.:J 11 ~: (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XXII. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: "No person shall be compelled to pay costs in any criminal case except after conviction on final trial." They wanted to clarify the -( l' IS language there. '':' [Yo ~"l 1(, co z w Cl GOVERNOR BUSBEE: l:. ,7 ~ ':"0 XXII? Any objection to the adoption of (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XXIII. :0 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXIII remains the same. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting XXIII? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. XXIV. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXIV, the language has been changed almost completely. "The General Assembly shall - - - -~--------------_._--- -_ - - - - - - - _ . - - - - -.---- .... - - ~ - - - - - - _ _----~~--- -- ... -- - - -- - - - - - PAGE 34 protect by law from levy and sale by virtue of any process 2 I under the laws of this State a portion of the property of 1 each person in an amount of not less than $1,600.00 and shall 4 have the authority to define to whom any such additional ) exemptions shall be allowed; to specify the amount of such 'I G exemptions; to provide for the manner of exempting such property 7 and for the sale, alienation and encumbrance thereof .. " , GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me interrupt you just a minute. " <) As I understand it, the Constitution currently provides for 10 an exemption in the amount of up to $1,600.00 for the head of '..:1 7 II >- 'o" a household's property, is that right? Q,. (~r:3)~"r",-.:,~. i",~' .. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And by statute, the legislature "------ \.. / ............. __ i 14 >- has extended the exemption, statutory exemption, up to $5,000. j-' i f ' :r: 15 ~ All that you're doing is you're leaving the Constitution with ](, '"'" ~ a c.:l floor in there of $1,600,. 00 and then leaving it up to the o 'z. 1 General Assembly. 18 ii REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: That's right. ""'I 19 1,1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And also, the head of household 20 II has been extended to all persons, rather than just the head ,I I 2i of household. ,~ , REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: That's right. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's the force and effect of it. i I i I ,'4 il Now then, rather than reading all that, that's all it does. I "l.!l\IlY qu~stions or~~scussion 011_that? ' ,,__ ,,_, ~ PAGE 35 2 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there objection to l 3 the adoption of XXIV? 4 MR. BOLTON: ~qhat do you mean, head of a household? 5 One person living in a house? I I 6 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've got a lot of houses with I I 7 more than one person living in them. \ 8 MR. BOLTON: I know, I'm just -- how much is this I going to affect school income? I I 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is levy and sale, the I I Ii ~ constitutional homestead. o I I 0.. MR. BOLTON: All right, I see, 1 1 m sorry. I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You know, if you and your wife i i jointly own property there, in order to have a levy and sale, I I This is just against levy and I sale. z <: [7 ~ Is there any objection to the adoption of XXIV? JUDGE DEEN; Mr. Chairman, there's a bill pending , i i 1'J in the legislature now that would eliminate I think the I husband as the head of a house. Assuming that would pass, I I 21 where you wouldnlt have a head. What effect would this have i here? ! GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think it would clarify it because I I ,:.+ now it says any person is exempt and that's as to that person. I If you had a judgment against you and I and we're both heads I - - - - - - -_._._-------- -_.- - ---- ---------._. . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.-J PAGE 36 --------------------------, of household, we're both exempted from levy and sale up to I 2 $1,600 constitutionally and $5,000 statutorily. Now if you 3 and your wife own a house together, I think you're the head 4 of the household under the law today, and you both owned it, -'i ,: you both had a judgment against it, I think your exemption 6 would be $1,600 each, your constitutional exemption, as this i is written, the same as it would be for you and I. il JUDGE DEEN: If the husband is eliminated as the 9 head, then there will be no head -- 10 MR. HARRIS: Each person would have 'z" 1J .... .':".~. GOVERNOR BUSBEE; Each person would have that as ~ /----12 IX ,,.} against their own property, you would always be able to keep ~ (~ ,6j~ "...... .z... ~ $1,600 under the Constitution and $5,000 or whatever the 11 '.... cor ,,; 1: 15 ,:, '.1 0: ::> 10 .'z".. "z' j7 IX '" legislature fixed. They have now fixed it statutorily at $5,000. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That would be ten for both? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's up to the legislature. It'd lk be $1,600 under the Constitution for each person plus any 19 additional amount the legislature gives that person. :'0 ,,I " SPEAKER MURPHY: Correct, sir. 21 MR. BOLTON: And there is a Federal Bankruptcy case "") -~ which said the legislative act is unconstitutional. 13 GOVERNOR BUSBEE; Well this would make -- 24 'I MR. BOLTON: This would make it constitutional, : ..~ 5 I Il; th_at's right. _..J! PAGE 37 -~-O-V-E-RN-;;-~~-SB-E-E-: -It~for your own property. weIll is there objection or any further discussion? (No response.) I! I i": 4 II, II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No further discussion, is there I 5 objection? I (No response.) I I 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it' s adopted. All right. I 8 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: XXV. Spouse's separate I estate. You'll remember before Orr, this particular section 10 provided that the wife's estate so and and so forth. We 1I ~. 0o': took that out and it reads now "The separate property of each "- ..::...S_Yit,f 12 : .. spouse shall remain the separate property of that spouse (~~~. / ...;r "'\ .... except as otherwise provided by statute." , The only other L"7 ,>-~ alternative that we even considered was just removing that v, <: T 15 ~ section altogether, but we left it in and made it apply to :":>~ 16 ~ either party, husband or wife. z 17 ~ JUDGE CALHOUN: Question here. Why did you use the word "statute" here? Ordinarily it's "provided by law". Was i ') there any particular reason for that? .20 MR. HILL: That's because we didn't want to imply 21 that the common law would come back into the -- ,) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm no authority, but this supposedty , ", .c.> I addresses the 2EE. case, doesn't it? I I REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes, sir. I I I ~p .' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any other questions about the I I _ _~_~.. _. . __ .. . ._ _....J PAGE 38 ------------------------------ -, other questions or discussion? I I (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adopting 4 Paragraph XXV? 5 (No response.) (; GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph XXVI, there are 8 , no changes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: XXVI, is there any objection? 10 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Section II, o"'- "- ~, @f~'~12 : Paragraph I. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph I is just like 14 ,. .... the original, there are no changes in it at all, that goes ~ r 15 ..:.>, way back to about four Constitutions . 1(l ~ cz~.' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: 17 ~ Paragraph I in Section II? Is there objection to adoption of 18 (No response.) 19 GOVERNO~ BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph 20 II. 2t REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph II, Object of government. There is a change of language here but I don't think it basically changes the meaning. 24 "The people of this State have the inherent right 2~ ! of regulating their internal government. Government is - --- -- ---------~- - - - - - - - - - - - -- PAGE 39 ------~ 1 i11\ instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the 2 Ii people; and at all times they have the right to alter or II I 3 II reform the same whenever the public good may require it. 1I IIi 4 il GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any question on Paragraph II? I I i i I" i 5 il Ii (No response.) I i 'I I 6I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption?1 i 7 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. III. I 9 I:i' There's no substantive change on III? 10 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: No substantive change. '2"- 11 ... GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption of Paragraph III? JUDGE CALHOUN: Yes. I think there is a substantive 15 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. tD U' ::J 16 : JUDGE CALHOUN: The word IIcompletell is left out. I D Z ~ 17 f:i liked the original paragraph III, which said IIProtection to 18 Ii person and property is the paramount duty of government, and :1 19 shall be impartial and complete." That's as lucid and complete a statement as I think you can make. 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Oh, I'm sorry, let me say the way 22, I did that, I think we're going to have to reconsider Paragraph II because they've combined it. The Roman Numeral 24 III there is what I wasreferring to, which is under what you were talking about. Do you see what I'm talking about? We ,,--------,----,----------- -------, PAGE 40 adoPt:~~d~~ i s l ------,-~_._._-------- II Paragraph II, the old Paragraph III that 'I I 2 II stricken there, i t would not be addressed there. It's in the I I! 3 il next paragraph where you have it. I ! i I " i I 4 MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I might say that the I ! 5 Committee omitted Paragraph III because of the equal protectioni ! I 6 language in Paragraph I, which you have omitted. So that I 1 7 think the Committee, if it were meeting again, would 'Ii 8 :1 probably want something to this effect back in here. q GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is what I'm getting back to. 10 I didn't realize when I called on Paragraph II and you said Cl Z. II .'o" , r. 1S ~ reconsider that? Is there objection? ::J 16 ~ ~ o Z -0: 17 :ii (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, we'll reconsider. Now [1\ this is what we're talking about now, going back to the old III 19 Paragraph III. "Protection the duty of government. Protection 20 to person and property is the paramount duty of government, ~j and shall be impartial and complete." In view of what we did 22 on the Judge's motion there -- 23 JUDGE CALHOUN: Mr. Chairman, I move that we re- insert Paragraph III in the original language. l~, . GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And appropriately number all PAGE 41 ,r- -----.-..-----..-- --- ------------ - -- remaining paragraphs. All right, is there a second? 2 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it. l 3 I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion? I ,1 (No response.) I 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor, say I (, aye. I 7 (Ayes. ) I K GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed? ') (No response.) 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And that's unanimous. All right, I uz ]1 ~ now 1 1 11 continue to refer to the paragraphs as used by the [) I I I ""' Articles Committee. New Paragraph IlIon Separation of I legislative, judicial and executive powers. I ! i I REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: No changes. i i 15 .:> GOVERNOR BUSBEE; All right, any discussion on that I ~".=""> I 16 ~ woz paragraph? < 17 ;;: (No response.) I I u'! I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those -- well, is therei 19 objection to the adoption of Paragraph III? 20 (No response.) 21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph 23 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph IV, there are 24 25 changes. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I i~ Is there objection to adopting IT---'--- -.-.-.----.----.-.-. ,I (No response.) I 2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. PAGE V. 4-2-----, I I 3 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph V there are no changes. 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting it? (No response.) 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. VI. ('( I.'~ REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VI. There are some changes there. They just left the simple statement 10 that "The civil authority shall be superior to the military." .... Paragraph VI? ~ J: 15 ~ JUSTICE NICHOLS: Just one thing. Let me ask you, 0 :'>" 16 '.z".. Mr. Chairman, later on down on militia, you left that in Cl z. 17 :'"n for historical reasons and I just wondered about the 18 Ii quartering of -- that's the thing that broke the camel's back 19 and brought on the Revolutionary War, you know. I agree with 20 you that it's obsolete and antiquated but for historical 21 reasons it might not be obnoxious to leave it in there. I don't perceive that you'd ever have somebody quartered in your house but neither do I say that that's an impossibility. JUDGE DEEN: I'd like to move to put that back in although that's a constitutional right that no one is using no~ L _ PAGE 43 -a-li~~ta~ion agai:~t 1 !,' or it's governmental power to put troopsl in your home, but nonetheless to sell this Constitution to the people I think they want more rights -- at least they II 4 don't want to feel that we're taking away some of these rights.1 ~ Ii I'd like to see that back in. I ;1! I) I; I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You don't want to take away the I I i 7 right of a person to have troops quartered in their houses? ;" , I JUDGE DEEN: They have a right to not have any I I I ! military troops quartered in their homes, that's a constitutionrl 10 right. c' 7. I II "o" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think as Representative Thompson Q. '" stated, they were just trying to shorten it, they felt it was antiquated, but evidently you don't. There is a motion made by the Chief Justice and seconded by you Judge, that we leave IS .,,~, that Article as written. Is that the correct motion? ':J 1(I ~ a SPEAKER MURPHY: Is that the only reason, just Z 17 ~ because it has been in there all these years? Is that the only reason y'all want to put it in there? JUSTICE NICHOLS: No, the only reason is they left the other one about the militia down there, they said for 21 historical reasons -- ,') SPEAKER MURPHY: We ain't got to that though yet, 23 Mr. Chief Justice. 24 I JUSTICE NICHOLS: I know, but if we leave this one in I and come to the other one and leave it in we've I J PAGE 44 ---- ---~I SPEAKER MURPHY: Let's take this one out and go I I to the other one and take it out, we're still in good shape. I I I JUSTICE NICHOLS: That'd be all right too, but " 4 you do away with the historical background, that's what I'm saying. I didn't make that motion, I just made that comment. SPEAKER MURPHY: You're letting the Governor put 7 i words in your mouth. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well let me ask you a question, 9 Judge, on that. It says you can't do this "nor in time of [0 war, except by the civil magistrate", now who is the civil '" II " x magistrate? ~) _ " l' 15 ,'0,9' there. ::J 1(~ ~I W .:> 7. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: My God, that's enough right GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't know how to approach this one. 'X JUSTICE NICHOLS: I was just trying to determine J9 ' why was the militia more important than the -- historically, 20 , than the GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Historically -- the Committee, I think according to Mr. Thompson, historically, you know in the Revolutionary War, you quartered the troops in the homes. Now you say we might need that right in the future. You made a motion. ._---~-_._--------- r------- PAGE 45 JU;;~CE NICHOLS: Historically that's the same a s l 2 \ the -- seems to me it has the same or as much historical 3 II background and necessity as does the militia. I'll go along \ 4 II with taking them both out. I 5 SPEAKER MURPHY: That's what I want to do, take I 6 them both out. Can I make a substitute motion? I I 7 8 make a SUb:::::::Rm:::::E:'dA:~l:i:::~rt::~ :::a:::i::~ted to III 9 SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we adopt Paragraph IV as i 10 recommended by the Committee. Czl 11 ~ 'o" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You mean VI? \ ! I a. ~, .12 ~ @r'~ SPEAKER MURPHY: VI, yes, sir. SENATOR OVERBY: I second that. I I I 14 >- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is we adopt Paragraph !;, :I: 15 .:> VI as recommended by the Cemmittee. Is there objection? "'of. ;) 16 ~ Well, is there a second? C 2 17 ~ SENATOR OVERBY: I seconded it. 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there further discussion? 19 LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I presume the Speaker's going 20 to have another motion when we get over further. 21 SPEAKER MURPHY: I will, sir. 22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well, all those in favor, raise 23 . your hand. 24 (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all opposed. PAGE 46 ------- -- ----- -------- ..- . - ---,_._ . n---'~~ ~-- ~----------_.,-~------------- Ij Ii 1 I' (A vote was cast.) II ------------ ----~ 2 i"l GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, there's one vote I I 3 i negative and all others present in the affirmative. It's ! I I 4 adopted. I I i 5 SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, you've dissented by yourself before, haven't you? 7 JUDGE DEEN: I have. 8 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Paragraph VII in the 9 original one was removed completely. That was the paragraph 10 on General laws; uniform operation. It was deleted from this 11 ... 'o" section because it was incorporated in the proposed Article 0- w ~t""~~12 ~ ~~ III. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection 14 .).-. to the adoption of this with the idea that if we don't go '<" l: 15 ..:.>, along with the provision in Article III we'll come back. Is 0: 16 3~ c there objection to the adoption of this deletion until we Z 16 .~... CzI Georgia for them playing baseball on -- the church league <: 17 ~ playing baseball on my high school baseball field? 18 JUDGE DEEN: That would be an accomodation of free 19 exercise 20 SPEAKER MURPHY: We've got folks fussing about that 21 now. JUDGE DEEN: It has to be something of more significance probably than that. 24 Ii '11 SPEAKER MURPHY: We've got folks fussing about that 25 I: Lii right now ~ in my count_y and I sure don't want to give I them no~ r-----.---.--.-. 1,1' anunun~t~on. PAGE 48 -----------~--------~-l 2 MR. HILL: We considered using the word "used", I I 3 I i "ever be used" and then it was felt, no, they didn't mean that,1 4 "appropriated for such purpose" they felt was more -- would I ! 5 ! require an affirmative action on the part of state government. 6 MR. HARRIS: To give them the property. 7 JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think it goes back to gratuities, 8 doesn't it? You're giving to religious purposes but not 9 i property, funds, gratuities. I 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have a little bit of concern' "z II t- 'o.C".L. here to this point, where it says "No money shall ever be ~ 12 ~ taken from the public treasury, directly or indirectly, in ~J~ aid of any church, sect, cult . " I think we concur in that, 14 ; ~ " or religious denomination or of any sectarian institution ::z: 15 .0 ":':"> " That says no money shall ever be appropriated. Now 16 .~.. oz it's a different proposition though when you say that "nor 17 ~ shall any public property ever be appropriated for any such 18 purpose." If you 19 JUSTICE NICHOLS: You're letting them use it, they 20 may be using it but you can't appropriate it. You can give 21 them money but you can't give them property. 22 SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You can't give them money. I 23 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You can't give them money. I 24 Ii JUSTICE NICHOLS: I say you can't, now you can't 9ivej I,i. 25 lIiLthem pro_perty, but up until now you didn't have property in 2 r~here. PAGE 49 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Governor, I would argue J II if I were before a court right now that appropriating property 4 II'' is the same as appropriating money anyway, but this just I5 clearly states 6 II JUSTICE NICHOLS: Yeah, but it has been violated, I 7 !i mean -- ~ II Ii REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: It has been violated " 9 'II and that's one of the things we looked at. 10 JUSTICE NICHOLS: That was a loophole. "z 11 .,.,., REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Many of us disagreed with ."o.". ~r~~ ~sv~, 12 ~ ~ the appropriating of property. and knowingly. This was done intentionally 14 ,>..-. JUSTICE NICHOLS: I would agree with you too, Mr. '< :I: 15 -0 ,-" Thompson, that I don't see any difference in property and 0: :J 16 '~" a money or real estate. But that has been the loophole down Z ..: 17 ~ through the years in the Constitution where some religious Iii, :, sect might -- you couldn't appropriate money to them, but you 19 il Ii could appropriate property and they could have that, and it 20 Iil' has been done. Ii 21 :: JUDGE DEEN: There are three or four things that '), federal money can be used, say for parochial schools, transpor- L, J' 24 tation, buses, textbooks that are secular and not for any ;I'1iI religious books. You cannot use monies for teachers because JI 2:' IiI lL th e y.__.say y._.o_..u.. _...c a n ' t control the teacher but you can check the l PAGE 50 I ~~;~~tbOOkS. So there are some th~~-~~--:ow that you can and 2 II you can't appropriate, just like police protection. But the 3 II thing that worries me really on this, separation of church and I 4 I:1; state has never been in our State Constitution before. Isn't I 5 IIi'I that correct? And this is a phrase that Thomas Jefferson 6 ,": used many years ago. He rejected it later, but the word 7 IIii "church" for the first 150 years the court cases were saying Ii 8!'1 that "church" meant theistic religions and the last fifteen I: i; q 1'1 or twenty years, the Cedar case and the Trosco v. Watson 10 case holds that there are some non-theistic and atheistic denominations, but I'd feel a little bit better about it if <:J '::"> 16 ~... we would put "religious denominations, theistic or atheistic" az < 17 ~ Then that would take care of Trosco v. Watson which says that 18 Ii if you have a belief in no Creator, this is an atheistic Ii I' 19 I religion. Secular humanism is one example, is a religion. 20 II If we're just going to put separation of church and state, it 21 II IiI' appears to me we're saying to the theistic church people that 22 11'1 I we're going to separate you from the state, but we're not II 23 Ii iII' saying anything about the agnostic or atheistic religious 24 IiII'I be1~ers and I think I'd like to move -- I may not get a second Ii 25 on this one either but maybe sooner or later I will -- r-- SENATOR OVERBY: Give it a try, Judge. PAGE 51 2 II JUDGE DEEN. All right. Right after the words 3 1',;1 "religious denomination" put a conuna "whether theistic or 4 IIii a theistic" would make me feel better. Of course, you've still "i 5 Iii: got your separation of church, you could put both theistic i: Ii h II "nd atheistic, from state. In other words, when you just say ii 7 separation of church and state you're building the old II 8 'iIli Jeffersonian wall against the theistic church believers and 9 II :I! you're not saying anything about separating the non-theistic 10 and agnostic and atheistic believers from the state, and all Cl Z 11 .... er. of them are religions and I want to separate both of them 0 "- ~~ ~)(~'~ \~~ // 12 .u"'.".' I'm for driving that wall of separation, but we need to include ;: z "' all of them. ~ '-_.~-- J4 >~:r: JUSTICE NICHOLS: Wouldn't they be included in 15 ~ "any sectarian institution"? 'e-r'. J 16 "'-' "Cz'l JUDGE DEEN: Well I think it might be covered down 17 'c"o there where it says "or religious denomination" because you've 18 got several kinds of different -- 19 JUSTICE NICHOLS: I have no objection, I'll second 20 your motion. I don't see any harm to it. 21 JUDGE DEEN: I'll put the words "whether theistic or "Y-) atheistic" after the words "religious denomination". I think 23 that would take care of it. 24 JUSTICE NICHOLS: You want it in the title too? :~ ~ JUDGE DEEN: I'd like to have "Separation of church, - - - - - ._------- _ _.. . _ - - - - - - - - - - - - Ii both theistic and atheistic, and state. I2 put that in the title and in the body. PAGE 52 -, i I'd like to move to 3I SPEAKER MURPHY: Governor, can I get back to my I4 point? II, 5 II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There has been a motion made and 6 I seconded. Discussion? Mr. Speaker? I 7! SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I get back to my problem now, I III 8 !I what started all this discussion? Where it says "nor shall 9 i!"Ii, any publ~. c property ever be appropriated for any such 10 purpose," would it be in order to move that "appropriated" be stricken and put "transferred for any such purpose". I don't want my kids to quit playing church league baseball on a baseball field now. You know, I never thought they'd stop us from praying in school, but they did, you know. And some Justice somewhere done that, Mr. Chief Justice, you know. (Laughter. ) JUSTICE NICHOLS: I wonder where. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What you're saying is you can't transfer money from the treasury it says you cannot take any money from the public treasury, directly or indirectly, and what you're saying is down in "nor shall any public 22 property ever be transferred . ", you want to put directly 23 or indirectly? 24 SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't care how you -- no, wait a 25 II' minute now. Just so my church league can continue to play on lL PAGE 53 ~~:~-~~seball field, that's what I'm interested in, in threel 2 towns as a matter of fact. 3 SENATOR OVERBY: Mr. Speaker, are they going to have I I to pass this thing? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Look, let me ask you this -- Mr. Speaker, I'm going to take the Judge's motion which does not address this. I'm going to divide the question if I might, if there's no objection. We'll take this motion first, and the words that you are suggesting is to put right after the 10 word "church", is that it? JUDGE DEEN: Right after the word "church", put comma, "both theistic and atheistic, and state" and then down in the middle part after the words "religious denomination" put comma, "whether theistic or atheistic, or of any sectarian I 15 ~ institution " " 'O"J 16 3 a :z. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption < j'l ~ of -- is there a second to that? IS JUSTICE NICHOLS: I seconded it. 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion? 20 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well I'm just going to make one :: ( statement about it. I don't think we ought to be putting additional verbage in this Constitution, especially some verbag, I that would give rise to recognizing something a lot of us don'tl :' -I I feel like ought to be recognized in the Constitution, and that I is atheistic religion. L _ __. . ----J I r---- PAGE 54 ----1 REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: It'd be hard to get it I 2 II passed, wouldn't it. i'lI 3 II I! 4 it. JUDGE DEEN: I I I I The Supreme Court has already recognized) i REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I realize that, but I don't I 6 see any reason to put it in the Constitution. 7 JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think it's really redundant, ~ Judge, don't you, really? 9 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Thatls your second that says it's 10 redundant .., z: I I l- oe< ~ ~, (Laughter. ) j2 : @ (~ ~V ~d )F~~I sides. SENATOR OVERBY: The Chief Justice has done switched 14 ; JUSTICE NICHOLS: No, I said lId go along with it, I I- ~ r 15 .':.>, don't see it does any harm, but it does raise a question as e< ~ 16 3 to bringing in the atheists -- coming in and start objecting to a z 17 ~ it. IS II I, 19 I I means REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: We donlt know what that 20 JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think it's redundant, I don't 21 think it's necessary but I'll go along with it. SPEAKER MURPHY: Why don't we vote on that? 23 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've got a motion and a second. 24 All in favor of the Judge's motion there about adding those 25 additional words, raise your hands. L_ PAGE 55 I I-----~ ~ (Votes were cast.) A11-r-i-g-h-t-,-a-l::J 2I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: One, two. II 3 II ,; (Votes were cast.) I I !i 4 I,i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, the motion is lost. I 5 II II JUDGE DEEN: I didn't even get my second. i\ Ii I) ,I II,III SPEAKER MURPHY: My language won't work, Governor, 7 Ii II because then you couldn't even sell it to a church if you II .~ I Ii wanted to. !i I, 9 Ii I. II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: II Right. !O SPEAKER MURPHY: But I just can't buy that language "z there at all. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, now going to the second part of the question, "nor shall any public property ever be appropriated for such purpose". That is, the first provision I') ..:> says you can't transfer money, this saying you can't ''1 16 ',:z":'0' w,:;, appropriate property for such purpose. Is there a motion z: <: ]7 '"C!: that that be included or not? 18 MR. BOLTON: The Speaker wanted to change the word 19 "appropriated" 2fJ SPEAKER MURPHY: That won't work, Mr. Bolton, for the simple reason then you couldn't even sell it to a church if we did that, for adequate compensation. That won't work. ii :.~ You might say "nor shall any public property ever be tranSferret ~.,. ! without adequate compensation for any such purpose" f but you I \re 2~i ~~~ ~~h_~~C~~ ~ got to have some way you could even sell i_t__ __ __ PAGE 56 I~----- ----~--- II MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, under -- for whatever II 2 II value Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary might have, under II 3 IIIi!' the word "appropriate", it says "To set apart for or assign 4 !ili to a particular purpose or use." 5 JUSTICE NICHOLS: Well now that's -- what you're 6 talking about Mr. Speaker is your personal property. We're 7 talking about State property here, so appropriate -- 8 SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, it says "any public 9 property", Judge, it don't say state, it says, state, county, 10 city, municipal, whatever it is, that's public property, sir. VJ <: 11 .... JUSTICE NICHOLS: Well let me see, I thought you 0: o Q. u 12 ~ said -- "No money shall ever be taken from the public treasury . . n @r~ SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the county, city, state or 14 ;.. whatever. ~ " le, ~ ::; aid of any church " I get a different meaning from that. Z - SPEAKER MURPHY: The churches have a church league ,e"> " 16 'z-0 w and they play in Bremen, Buchanan, Tallapoosa and Waco on 0 .L, 17 a,r:, the school property all summer. 18 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is that an appropriation of the 19 property. 20 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Why we do that in Chickamauga 21 too ., 1 SPEAKER MURPHY: Do you want to have some nut come in and stop you? 24 I Ii 2~ II LL. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: No. ,, i SPEAKER MURPHY: That' 5 what I f m trying to bring~ .. _ - - PAGE 59 -1 your attention. I'm glad you woke up at last, Mr. Chairman. 2 JUSTICE NICHOLS: I still don't think that's ! i 3 appropriating. I i 4 SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, if I had seven votes like 5 you on the bench all the time I'd be satisfied from now on, 6 but I -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Don't say things like that, Mr. 8 Speaker. <) SPEAKER MURPHY: The Judge, whatever he says, that's 10 the way it's going to be, but "z JUSTICE NICHOLS: I wish to God I could believe that. (Laughter. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, let's -- SPEAKER MURPHY: What if this question got in 15 ~ certain federal courts, do you know what they're going to say? 1,.:1 :'>" ... 16 : 17 ,,; OJ just what you're saying. I think it would be illegal for it ]8 to be done now, what you're saying, unless we were to adopt 19 the recommendation that's made later on. 20 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Well we've been doing it 21 and that's my concern. This is the only place I knew of where 22 I could attack that particular problem and so I put that in 23 there. You think that that would permit it? 24 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well right now the gratuities 25 I section of the Constitution I think the Attorney General said PAGE 62 . . . - - - - - . r--~~----------------------___----_ ~ _ . _ - ~ . _ - - - - - - - ~ - - - - _ . _ - - - i would prohibit that being done, what you've just said. ii 2 II REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Well we're in violation 3 of it. 4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But if you put this in now, later -r, on there would be a way to get around it because -- SPEAKER MURPHY: Where Albert's violation is coming 7 in, you remember that school that we -- for that lady we passed that bill for that time, which is they're coming in and q declaring property surplus and they're selling it at public 10 bid and nobody goes and they're bidding a dollar or two dollarslI. I i That's the way they're getting around the gratuities law. That ain't going to stop this. All this is going to do is hurt innocent folks here. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: I just think it needs to be stopped and this was an attempt on my part to stop it. SPEAKER MURPHY: I agree with you that ought to be stopped, but I think this is going to hurt innocent folks here. HI GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right 19 SPEAKER MURPHY: Go ahead and vote. 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is -- The Speaker's 21 motion is that those words be deleted, the new words I just read, and there was a second. Is there any further discussion? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor of the 2S motion say aye. . - - - - --------_.. (Ayes. ) PAGE 63 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. (Nays. ) 4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We'd better do a show of hands. 5 All in favor of the Speaker's motion, raise your hands. 6 (Votes were cast.) 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five. All opposed. 8 (Votes were cast.) 9 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five. 10 (Laughter. ) 'z" 11 "'o". SENATOR HOLLOWAY: What do they call that, the hot I0- (~_\,.~j"~ ~ seat? \\~'--// GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Itll vote to go along and delete it., '-'- 14.~ I'll go with the motion. The motion is adopted to delete "nor shall any public property ever be appropriated for any 3"'="> j(J such purpose." I do want to emphasize one thing though, o z ..: 17 ~ Albert, I concur with what you say and I would support 18 legislation to do that because I think it's totally wrong. 19 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: That brings us to -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Also, in voting, I consider 21 appropriated to be used for, appropriated for a purpose, I think you use it for a purpose, I think that's appropriation I and quite different than taking public money from the treasury. I I REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: I thought appropriation meant used also and I wanted to prohibit that too. ,L....._ _ -- _ I ~ r-- -- - - ----- _._.._--~-----_.~----_.-. --------- PAGE 64 t I'II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Next we're going to lotteries, l I !" : ! " .; tIiI it's deleted in XI i 3 r :: REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: We can just take all those I 4 II at the same time. We thought that there was no place for a i, s specific prohibition on lotteries, lobbying and this type fraud in the Bill of Rights. If they should be prohibited, 7 they should be prohibited just like any other kind and that's 8 by statute, so we deleted those three provisions. <) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. 10 MR. BOLTON: That's what, lobbying U 7- 11 ~ REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Lobbying, lottery and this o "- ~);~~~ ~ ~:9~'li:,j.\ 12 ~~"' general fraud section here. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It goes on all the prohibition ----' 14 ~~ liThe General Assembly shall have the power to provide for the '< 1: 15 ~ punishment of fraud; and, shall provide by law, for reaching ':":> 16 6'" property of the debtor concealed from the creditor." cz' C) All right, Section III, General Provisions, Albert, IX 16 3:> Paragraph I. Q Z 17 ~ REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: This is the eminent domain 18 section. 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I've got real questions about that. 20 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Just let me say this. 21 This is an extremely complicated section and we sought all the help that we could get. Mike Henry, who is on the staff, did a lot of research on this and came up with some language which 24 i :1 the Committee bought. He came up with it at our direction [, Ii 25 because the other language is voluminous, it's difficult to r ~ PAGE 67 un.~ers~an~~-~-'- s two pages, three pages of language almost 2 'I which the Committee reading it had difficulty in interpreting 3 !II it. I understand the courts have done quite a bit in the way II 4 I Iil' of interpreting that. We had some other considerations. The 5 II'II declaration of taking which was put into this for the benefit Ii, 6 I! of the Highway Department. We were hoping that we retained 7 Ii that in the language that we have here because we think -- we ii 8 agree that the Highway Department ought to be able to get I"i ') " title to the property at the time of the original condemnation 10 without waiting for all the appeals and other things which "z II .... ao: would go along with it. We added to this particular section Q. 12 ~'" another departure which is that the reasonable costs and II (~~)_._. ~ /~:)YRd expenses of contesting one of these things, the General AssemblV i - 14 ~ can provide by law for the payment of reasonable expenses, I ':;,( I :t: 15 .:. but you're going to have to read this yourselves and come up I ""::> I 16 'z.".. with whatever determination you want. a I z <' J "7 IX '" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't know how to proceed on I I 18 i' this. There's been a lot of members who have expressed some I 19 concern on the Select Committee about this paragraph. I I think i 20 what we need to do is kind of discuss the major overall changes II 21 that you're making right here and then get the sense of the I I 1, , Select Committee and if we have to have some redrafting based I 23 'on that, then we'll just have to have it redrafted. But let I i,~ ~Oin~_~~ 24 I me see if I can state some of the changes. I 2" I_think_on_e Of_ the things thatl'<>Il're -------. . --~---------- --~------ PAGE 68 -------~-------~--------- 1 you had the case of White vs. Georgia Po"er Company, "here 2 you had a 3-3 vote by the Supreme Court and you had one Judge, I 3 a Superior Court Judge filling in -- that was Marcus, wasn't ! 4 it, filling in there? So you're disqualified. 5 Anyway, they held that the attorneys' fees would be 6 included in the condemnation award. Wasn't that the White 7 case that y'all had? ~; JUDGE CALHOUN: Whatever the jury found was <) necessary expense. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Supreme Court then came back ~, z 1I ... o0: in the B.P.O.E. case in Dekalb County and reversed this on a c.. w ~r~~ ~~ 12 ~ ~ 4-3 decision. So what we would do is come back and reverse -- , I mean and say that it is included. That would be one change. 14 .:>..- I'm not arguing for nor against at this time ~ :x: I) ,~ '".""J The next thing that you did was you went along lh ~ 'a" with the declaration of taking method, on prepayment you say Z 17 0: ell for transportation purposes that you would also have to put I (~ up the compensation for any other public purposes. Isn't 19 that one of the changes? 20 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: They insisted that the 21 money that is uncontested -- this is just generally the idea Y) if there has been an offer of X number of dollars, that they ., , ..... ~"l have to go ahead and pay that. 2f t GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. And the next change, and 25 I, this would be a major change as far as State expenses are J L____ ~ ~__~_ _ . - - - - PAGE 69 I r~~ncerned' along with those attorneys' fees, would be the II 2 II relocation. The present law, you have the federal statutes ,I 311 where you have federal money involved, provides for attorneys' I II I 4 !I fees and for relocation expenses, a considerable amount of the IiI! 5 federal monies can be used. This would extend that to the 6 ,I state. This is a substantial change as far as condemnation is il 7 IIII concerned and eminent domain. ii, 1) 'I REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Governor, can I say this? i: ]I 9 Ii The language is slightly different, it says that they may Ii 10 the General Assembly may provide for relocation expenses. It "z II I- .'oQ"... says that they shall provide for these incidental expenses 12 (~~~-S;-yd'~)/,)/r"~o ~ ~~ and attorneys' fees. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's correct. ----- J 4 >- ~ JUSTICE NICHOLS: I made some notes on this. If 16 .~.. situation on your notes. "Paragraph I. Eminent domain. (a) o z < 17 ~ Private property shall not be taken or damaged for public II) purposes without just and adequate compensation " (insert Ii 19 "first being paid period"). Strike out "in the manner and 20 at the time provided by law." REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: You say "being first paid"? -') I JUSTICE NICHOLS: "Being first paid." Now that's --'1 ,..) where -- a person ought not to have to wait if they're going 24 to take his property, he ought to get paid for it when they 25 take it. I --------------------------~ PAGE 70 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPS;~:--~~-at-d-e-s-t-ro-y-s-~-h-e---I Highway Department's ability to get title. I I ! 3 II ii GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That would do away with quick 4 Ii" " taking, Judge. -s il!i JUSTICE NICHOLS: The Highway Department or nobody Ii (, Ii ought not never have been able to take a person's property, ii 7 ii il the Woodside case held that. I' 8 i property has been paid for. The title never passes until the I 9I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead. 10 JUSTICE NICHOLS: Let me go ahead with the rest of cz? IJ ~ o'" this paragraph. 0- w ~ 12 ~ "The General Assembly shall provide by law for ~r~ the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses incurred 14 .~.. by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation_!" ':" Now that's what the Constitution says now, "just 16 ~ ""z' and adequate compensation". 17 ~ "(b) The General Assembly shall by law require 18 Ii the condemnor to pay just and adequate compensation as a 19 condition precedent to the exercise of the right of eminent 20 domain and shall provide for the disbursement of the same to 21 the end that the rights and equities of the property owner, lien holders, and the State and its subdivisions may be protected." The General Assembly shall do that. 24 "(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of the 25 i Constitution, the General Assembly may provide by law for L .. .__ .. - - --~----_.--~-- PAGE 71 relocation assistance and payments to persons displaced 2 ! through the exercise of the power of eminent domain. 3 "Private ways. In case of necessity, private ways 4 may be granted upon just and adequate compensation being 5 first paid by the applicant." 6 Now I think that would meet what you're asking for. I. 7 It's sort of contradictory in one place where it says here 8 1\ II "The General Assembly shall by law require the condemnor to !I 9 make prepayments against adequate compensation . " What 10 does that mean? How much to pay against it? " shall Czl 11 .... e< require the condemnor to make prepayment against adequate 0 "w- 12 u'" compensation as a condition precedent . " Why not just ~@F ~ i= z w require the condemnor to make just and adequate compensation ~ 14 ,.. as a condition precedent? '- '< J: 15 ~ SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The quick taking is gone then. Cl :':"> 16 '2". w GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask if there would be any 0 Z < 17 ''"" objection on the part of the Select Committee, Justice 18 Nichols has some observations that he has in writing there 19 that I'd like the benefit of. The Attorney General is 20 preparing some, the Transportation Department is concerned 21 about this. You couldn't build a highway until after there 'i" has been a determination and the money paid. But is there ,~ ~J :: any objection to deferring action on this until the next 24 meeting and let us get this in writing, the recommendations as 25 to the wording itself? It's extremely complex and if anybody LL ~ "------~--~-----~ PAGE 72 I wants to make any proposal, we can exchange proposals before 2 we meet. 3 SPEAKER MURPHY: I've got no objection to that, but 4 I'd sort of like to do what the Chief Justice has done, and 5 go through what Albert has done. The Chief Justice has 6 written probably as many opinions on eminent domain as anybody 7 but I'll bet I've tried as many condemnation cases as anybody 8 in this room. I'll bet on that. And this is a great 9 I rendition of this thing. This is great. 10 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: As far as attorneys' fees and all, Czl 11 fiX I know it is. 0 0.- i w 12 u'" SPEAKER MURPHY: Governor, you're going to be amazed.\I ~~r~ ~ ;: z w You're going to be amazed, I've got circled here where it U on I 14 >- f- says "The General Assembly shall provide by law...... That ough~ 'x< I 15 ~ to be changed to "may provide by law". ." '":> 16 czo w The first sentence, "Private property shall not be 0 Z ~ 17 ''"" taken or damaged for public purposes without just and 18 adequate compensation being paid in the manner and at the 19 time .. " That will leave the law just like it is now where 20 the Highway Department could do their prepayment, they could 21 take their land under the law as we've got it now or we could 22 go through the Special Master. That leaves it just like it is. i 23 The next sentence is not the law, this says you'll have to 24 provide. I think that ought to be changed to "may" and that ~5 would leave us where we are now. We could do that now by law. PAGE 73 The next one is absolutely just really what the law is now, 2 but that "shall" ought to be changed to "may" too, Albert, ~ and that would leave us with the law we've got on the books 4 now, just like we've got it now. 5 The other one is new, ain't any question about that, o but it's something we ought to address before the federal 7 courts make us address it really. And this is a great draft of this law. I don't know who done it, but ever who did it, q did a darn good job if you change those two "shall" to "may" I 'J and leave it up to the General Assembly to' provide it. That's '..'J I- II ~ as good a draft of any constitutional provision I've seen yet Q c.. u, 12 ~ and I wish y'all would build another 1-20 through my district, ([b5;) ~sv~' rc,.n~,~- \. \., ~/)// ~~ ~, I'd like to have twenty more cases. That would suit me fine, " - -- .. ~ , - 14 t especially after we pass the attorneys' fee section. '<" I (5 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I know you're in the process MR. BOLTON: I'm really not qualified to get into a "o' Z sal~ r - ------------------------------------------- --- - ------------- - - - PAGE 74 r II in writing if you would. If there's no objection, we'll just ! Ii :2 II postpone this until the next meeting. We're going to have to " 3 Ii coordinate this, Robin, as far as getting these views in on I) 4 this. 5 MR. HARRIS: Well if you get them, don't hide them, 6 send them on. 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If you'll just give this to Mel or 8 to Robin Harris there, I know that -- we have your recommenda- 9 tions, the Speaker has made some comments, the Chief Justice 10 has got something in writing and Arthur, if you could from the z" 11 ~ Attorney General's office, confer with those concerning state o "- ~ @r~;I 2 ~~ government, then give us your recommendations, we'd appreciate it. i4 >- I- Is there any objection to postponing this section '< I 15 ~ of the Bill of Rights? I "IX -:> 16 'z" w JUSTICE NICHOLS: Here's what I'm talking about, I z0 17 ''"" when you talk about the declaration of taking which was passed i J' 18 to let the Highway Department get the property by paying into 19 court and the other system is if you have a Special Master, yo 20 have it in that case, but also you have some sort of an 21 arbitor, you still have to pay the money into court. What I'm saying is you can't take the property until you pay for it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. I understand that. 2-1 SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. I ll________ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You're right o_n th_a_t_.__I_s_t_h_e_r_e_-.-JI PAGE 75 ~I' n=~~~bjeCti:-~~~Oing~~i':~~:here we=OUld get it in Writin~ 2 ahead of time? IqI 3I (No response.) 4 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. i I I I Now any recommendations!1 that you have, rather than coming up at the next meeting and us hearing it, if we could just give it to them and then we will circulate that to each of the members of our Committee so if we have any questions we can find out beforehand. 9i SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I'd like to have a fiscal note 10 of what the attorneys' fees will go to if we pay attorneys' 'z.;J. It .... o'" fees. ~ ,~ (C\~j))f~!C ~ !.r:o.~'2,!Vl,:>t \ ]2 : ;:;: SPEAKER MURPHY: I liked the first decision, Judge, >: much better than I did the second. \~-~~=-~~~~/ / 1 Jl ,>... GOVERNOR BUSBEE: ~ < I ! ') .0 JUSTICE NICHOLS: "'":;) 1() ~ ques tion. We'll try and get this, all right This is a very, very serious z < 17 :; GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It is, I think ~~ JUSTICE NICHOLS: We have a situation over there on J9 the Court right now and we're getting into air rights now, 20 : you know, here in town. As it stands right now it's three 2l and three, Hall just left and went over to the federal court and we don't know who's coming in and we don't know what his I 23 reaction will be but it'll be 4~3 whatever it is. And it's I i a bad situation. Every time you have a change in personnel i I 25 on the Court you get a different law on eminent domain, on the i . --J ,'------------ --- - ------------------ PAGE 76 rr---~---_--~--__---- 11 condemnation cases. Ii -- -------~-------- ---- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - , i --, II:i MR. BOLTON: They're getting as bad as the Supreme ~i 3 :1 Court of the United States. 4 (Laughter. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. If there's no IJ objection, this section is going to be -- the entire section III will be carried over until the next meeting of the Select Committee in order that we might give it careful scrutiny. l) All right, Section IV is Recall. to REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: There is one other section, '.'J II <~- that's Tidewater titles confirmed. We didn't change that. o~i 0- ~ ! -.. ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's under Section III? REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yes, that's under Section III. J 5 ,~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If there's no objection then I'll '" :'":>" ib ~ just separate Paragraph III of Section III and leave it as is, Q 'L ]' ~< Tidewater titles confirmed. Is there objection? l~ (No response.) 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, that's adopted. :~o REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: On that recall provision, .,. 1 Governor, that's a recent expression of the people of the State ~2 of Georgia in the 1978 general election and we just felt -- ~~3 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No change. I': ':4 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: No change. ,~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to the adoption LC- .. ~ - - - - . - - - _.-- --~-------------------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ' PAGE 77 I lr~~~-' 2 1'1 MR. HILL: l There was a recommendation that it ought il 3 III to be transferred to Article II. i I 4 II, REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Yeah, there was a recommen~ dation that it be transferred. We didn't feel that it belonged in the Bill of Rights. I I MR. HARRIS: It ought to be in the Election Article. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is that the recall? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection on the 10 recall? J4 ,.~. ':) r 15 ,!\ except for Section IlIon eminent domain? :J '"::J 10 ']) 'z affirmative motion. ,~ ], '""''"" JUDGE CALHOUN: I so move. I think we need an 'X '",I 'I 19 ! GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there a second? JUSTICE NICHOLS: Second. ~O GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion? 21 (No response.) ", .., GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor, say aye. :-1 (Ayes. ) ,~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed? .-_. -.-._- _-----------1 rr-----------.. - ... ._.- ~--------~-~- ------.~-- PAGE 78 Ii (No response.) 2 IIIi II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's unanimously adopted. I I II 3 jl JUDGE CALHOUN: Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to I -- I I Ii I 4 I the Committee ought to express its appreciation to 5 II Representative Thompson and his committee for the fine work that they did, and I so move. 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second it. q :1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There's a motion made and 10 seconded. All those in favor, say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted and Albert, we do appreciate your efforts. REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Thank you, Governor. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've already done Article II. J8 II We're going to skip Article II for the time being. Isn't that 19 II :i II your Article? 20 I' I' ,I: MR. BOLTON: I wish you would, you'd be doing me a 21 favor right now. Robin hadn't told me I was supposed to lead 22 the prayer today. :: ,l :i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What we're going to do now is, I :: ,Article II is one of the Articles that was already adopted I 0_and__we_ h~ve now Harold Clarke an~_~~~ge.smith on Articles ~ PAGE 79 one of you is in the biggest hurry? It doesn't matter. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to flip a coin? MR. CLARKE: I don't know that we've got a coin. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Governor? 6 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Yes? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I'm serious about this. What 8 we do with Article V has a lot to do with how I feel about 9 Article III. I \0 I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Are you suggesting we take it firs~ and not let them flip a coin, all right. Come around here, Judge. You had both IV and V, Judge? JUDGE SMITH: That's correct. 15 .:> '-' ':"> GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Zell, you want to take up V first 1b 'z" w Q before we do IV? Z l7 '"r~ LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: It doesn't matter. IS SPEAKER MURPHY: lIve got to get out of here at 19 five o'clock, I've got a basketball game to go to. 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead with Article V. 21 JUDGE SMITH: All right, Article V relates to the '._. " Executive Branch and divides itself into two general subjects, .."...:.. \ one was the Office of Governor and Lieutenant Governor and 24 the other was the so-called Other Elected Constitutional Officers. T-~----~-~-~~--- PAGE 80 - - - - - ~--_.~ ~~~~~-~-- ._---~-~----------~~- I In regard to the Governor's Office, primarily it i 2 II was a matter of cleaning up the language and cutting out a II 3 I;!i lot of the specifics that we didn't think were necessary. I' :~ 11 4 ',I Ii We couldn't figure out what an emolument from a foreign state I, 5 meant, so we just left it out, things like that. li i; As I recall, the only substantive power that was , I 7 'Ii transferred was the power to suspend the death sentence I S ii pending the meeting of the Board of Pardons and Paroles and 9 that was transferred to the Board rather than in the Governor 10 himself. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The present Constitution provides that the Governor can suspend it for up to ninety days for the purpose of review. JUDGE SMITH: Well it doesn't really say in days as 15~, l'1 I reco11ect. We felt that that power was better exercised by rX ~, lu .~.. the Board C Z 17 ~" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Take it away from the Governor and give it to Pardons and Paroles, I concur. Go ahead. 19 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. In regard to the Lieutenant 20 Governor, there was a lot of discussion about the fact that he 21 has one foot in the Executive Branch and one foot in the I 22 Legislative Branch. It is the recommendation of the Committee 23 ii ii that he not be in the Legislative Branch, but be designated I 24 as a purely Executive Officer. For that reason, it is I Ii j 25 ~~ec~mm~nd~~_~ha t he not be the Presiding Officer of the Senate, PAGE 81 -~--------------I that the Senate, through the other Article, elect its own 2 President of the Senate. 3 The duties of the Lieutenant Governor would be restricted to Executive duties as provided by law or as 5 designated by the Governor. And that was the essential change 6 in that Office. I might say that part of the thinking here 7 ! was that there might be characteristics in a Lieutenant i I~ Governor that the people would like for that office, but he I ! might not necessarily be a good presiding officer in the ! IO legislature, and that people felt it was Eportant to preserve \ o z II Ii ~ the office in order to have someone standing by in the Executiv~ ~ \ 12 ~ Branch ready to take over the job of Governor in the event of I ('\ctr-Y,-~J/\I)'r-~'!:'!!!- \ \, .... I ~.~~ death or disability. '--::'~:-=// 14 In regard to disability, that's contained in these !; 1(, 3OJ and that was all reworked. There is a system provided here Cl z 17 ~ whereby a petition of certain Constitutional Officers and the Speaker and President of the Senate, the petition of disability 19 may be filed with the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court judges i 20 whether the disability is temporary, they say when it's over I 21 i with, and it provides for the Lieutenant Governor serving under! n these circumstances be it permanent or temporary. The details II are in there. I don't know whether you want to go over them I one by one or not. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I we~ I'm not suggesting, Judge, that !'1\(;Y 82 read every word that you've done, we have a copy and we can go down it. JUDGE SMITH: I hope not. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have some concern and I think the Lieutenant Governor and the Speaker both had something they might want to say on this, but I have a little concern with this. Presently you have the Lieutenant Governor that does have the duty of presiding over the Senate and he can '.1 have such other things as the Governor may prescribe. Now what you're saying is that the Lieutenant Governor would be i i taken out of the Senate, he would not be a presiding officer :\ (".~..(.'v~fi.<.)~t')t'!!"i ! ""..-....~./- // / there. He would have no duties that he now has there. JUDGE SMITH: That t S correct. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Now under the present law, the ,'.c' :~ Lieutenant Governor is the one that first would succeed the ;;:. :) I6 ,f:~ ". Governor if he was killed or disabled and so forth. All right, C, 1. ( I "J ,~ now ,~., he would then serve until the next general election, when , the people are going 10 be voting anyway. He would serve that .J long. Under the proposal as I see it here, the Lieutenant '{I .'} Governor, if say the Governor -- if I was to die today, the Lieutenant Governor would serve, under this provision, for another three -- over three years. ,, ....1 JUDGE SMITH: That's correct, he would finish the term. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Even though they were having anothe~ general election. PAGE 83 ---- --- --------- -----------------------------, I 2 JUDGE SMITH: And be eligible for one more full term. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That was one concern that I had. The other one was this, that under the existing law now, the other Constitution, if the Lieutenant Governor and I were to both be killed today and the Speaker would take over, it would be sixty days that he would serve and you're proposing that he serve ninety days. ':J JUDGE SMITH: That was simply to give them time ~j to set up an election. Everybody felt that sixty days was 1 j not enough. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But if the Lieutenant Governor were to take it, he would serve for the full term, not just 1' until the next general election. JUDGE SMITH: That's correct. The theory is that he's elected for the purpose of succeeding the Governor, whereas the Speaker is not. 1 .1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The concern I have is not really .'.\1 that election part so much as that the legislature could take such powers as it wants and give to the Lieutenant Governor who has not run as a team with the Governor and if he was running for Governor, that could present some real problems because it would be taking away -- anything you gave him down in the Executive Branch, if you send the Lieutenant Governor 84 down there and it says the legislature can tell him what to do in the Executive Branch, prescribe his duties -- JUDGE SMITH: Well they would be executive duties, not legislative. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's what I'm talking about, that's the Governor, but the legislature would be the one that would be prescribing those duties that he'd be doing down on o the second floor. You've run him off from the Legislative Branch and put him in the Executive Branch and told the legislature to tell him what his duties are. If he's taking I I -- duties out of the Executive Branch -- JUDGE SMITH: Well, but they were supposed to be limited just to executive duties. ,;. >- ~. MR. TIDWELL: I think the point the Judge is making r.- <: 1: 15 ."1 is that they're not Chief Executive duties, isn't that right, ! i'~ ~ Judge, that they're not the Governor's duties but they would (' i <. 1 -. 'I' :,:) be executive duties. 20 that. -"1 Ll i! JUDGE SMITH: That's right. I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But the legislature would prescribe. I JUDGE SMITH: For example, if the legislature were to say that the Lieutenant Governor could represent the Governor on his designation on any of your function, that's the theory behind it, and he would be empowered so to do it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Who wants to lead off? - _. i ...__ ._ _1 PAGE 85 LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I would prefer to leave it like it is. I think it's a system that has worked very well 3 II although I have no great problem with the Senate electing its i own presiding officer. But if you're going to do that, I " think we have got to spell out some significant duties for the " Lieutenant Governor. I also think we've got to look from a practical standpoint at what we're doing politically and th~t ~ is that we are almost going to force the Governor and the :) Lieutenant Governor to run as a team. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: If you have the Lieutenant :: Governor in the Executive Branch and you don't run as a team, - " you're going to have chaos. I: GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The chaos part was what I was I) ,~, talking about more than the team. (Laughter. ) 7 IY , il JUDGE SMITH: The Committee did consider whether they ought to run as a team and rejected that, but they felt ! } that the public ought to be able to select, in essence, a standby successor to the Governor by popular election and " independent of the Governor. SPEAKER MURPHY: Is it my time? All I've got to say " \ is the State of Georgia cannot afford a Lieutenant Governor who is nothing but a ribbon cutter and that's what y'all are making him. I agree with the Lieutenant Governor, he ought to PACE 86 stay presiding officer of the Senate and you ought to give him a little more power in the Senate. Now that's what we ought to do to make him a functional officer and that's the only thing that I'm ever going to vote on. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: If I was you, I don't blame you. (Laughter. ) SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think the Lieutenant Governor and I feel about the same on this. For many, many years I have been trying to get the Senate on the same level with the House -- I'm not committing whether that's further up or further down, but as long as you have got a Lieutenant Governor that is like the Speaker, subject to the majority of that body's wishes, you're never going to have a Senate that can take its place in the legislative function in the way it '" should because the Lieutenant Governor -- and goodness knows, Governor Miller has done more for the Senate than anybody that I know, certainly all of his predecessors put together, but when you've got a Lieutenant Governor that's primarily ,} concerned with running for another office and things other than the Senate, he's not responsible to them whatsoever, he's elected by a different body. When the House across the hall elects its own leadership from its peers, it's a different ") ballgame. The two teams don't belong in the same league as far as I'm concerned and I think it's awfully important that the Senate elect its leadership for the reasons so stated, to PAGE 87 put it on an equal basis with the House. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I can't argue with that statement except that if you're going to do that, and this is the point I'm making, if you're going to do that you have got to make the Lieutenant Governor -- you've got to kind of spell out some of the duties he's going to do. You can't just leave it hanging there that he's going to be at the whim of the Governor. I do say again, as a practical matter what that you do is have them running together because if they don't then -- it just won't work. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Mr. Chairman -GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Yes? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Let me give you an example, and I believe this firmly. I believe that say Governor Miller -I don't think anything is going to be done during his term, but say he was elected to the Senate of the United States, we would then have a Lieutenant Governor by rule of the Senate that wouldn't be doing a thing in this world but drawing his salary, whether we liked it or not because we could, by rules, take all of his powers away from him. The only power he's got is to preside over the Senate. Well that power exists with the Vice President of the United States over the Federal Senate but you don't see him around that much. SPEAKER MURPHY: That ain't what you'd have. You would not be Lieutenant Governor, you'd be the President of the Senate. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's right. SPEAKER MURPHY: You would not be Lieutenant Governor. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I understand that. SPEAKER MURPHY: You'd be President of the Senate, so you wouldn't be the Lieutenant Governor. You're just as wrong about that as you can be. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The Lieutenant Governor would " still be an office. We'd still get a new Lieutenant Governor two years from now. The President Pro Tern takes over as President of the Senate, that's true, but only for a short time, spelled out. I'm saying the same way that the House has got , leadership, when Lester Maddox didn't get elected in November ,. and had to be elected by the legislature in January. Well he I ; couldn't get all his horses together. The Governor had run that House, as you well know, for years and years and years, but y'all were smart enough to see that opening when you had that November-December to call a meeting and get your team '1 together and since that day the Governor hasn't had much to say about running that House. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's a matter of opinion. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well he tries awful hard sometimes. PAGE S9 REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: He works at it. SPEAKER MURPHY: I think he has a lots of say, we have a great deal of respect for this Governor and we listen to him and we try to help him. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think we have a serious question here and you've got several options that you're talking about. Nobody else is expressing themselves. I don't see this hybrid, I think if you're going to have a Lieutenant Governor, he ought to preside and do something SPEAKER MURPHY: I do too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: A full time position if you're going to pay him that way, or if you're not going to have him, trying to send him down to the second floor just for the purpose of hanging around until the Governor is killed or disappears (Laughter. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Then I think you ought to abolish the office, but -LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Wait a minute. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If you're going to require them to run as a team, if you want to take that approach, I don't think their running as a team works though in many states because then your Lieutenant Governor is trying to run for Governor while he's there and the Governor is trying to promotenm because they did run as a team, but the hybrid is what gets me. I think that's bad. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Governor, as you well know, ~ the whole trend throughout the united States is to make the Lieutenant Governor a more responsible office rather than making it weak or abolishing it. In fact, we've never abolishe~ -- let's just get this straight right now since it was brought up. The Office of Lieutenant Governor has never been abolished in the history of the United States except one time. Maryland did it and then within a few years they reconstituted the office. In last month's U. S. News and World Report, I'm . not going to bore you about it but let me just read you the first two paragraphs: "In state after state, new importance is being attached to a job that was once considered as use- ful as a fifth wheel, the Office of Lieutenant Governor. With few exceptions, the men and women who hold the number two positions in 1 America's state governments are shedding their roles as mere ribbon cutters and stand-ins for their Governors. Many of them enjoy significant powers denied their predecessors over a generation ago. " I'm not arguing ~- I'm not against the Senate electin~ its own presiding office. The point I'm trying to make is if we PAGE 91 go that route, and that's why I wanted to take up this Article first, if we go that route, for goodness sake, let's give the Lieutenant Governor something significant to do and let's let the people of Georgia know what it is. Just to hang it out there being at the whim of the Governor I think is bad and it also makes them run together. That's the point I'm trying to make. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What duties are -- are you going to give the duties by statute? The legislature will decide /1 what the duties are? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I would prefer to see some of them written into the Constitution, but if we want to remain flexible and not do that, and I can understand the argument not to do it, I think we have got to come up with a statute, we've got to come up with a law before we put this before the people for ratification and certainly we've got to have it 'l'.l written into law before we ask somebody to run for the Office of Lieutenant Governor. Who in the world would run for Lieutenant Governor, run allover this state campaigning and raising money and not even know what his duties are going to be before he takes office. SPEAKER MURPHY: Governor, you've put your finger on the flaw in this whole Article right here, the whole Article. Who in the world would run for the Office of Lieutenant Governor if he wasn't going to do nothing but just sit around P.V,E 92 for eight years and draw his salary and not do a dadblamed thing. You'd get the awfullest kind of fellow sitting down there -- and you know I'm speaking, you'd get the awfullest " kind of fellow sitting down there and he'd be the next man to be the Chief Executive. You wouldn't get a responsible person " that was willing to do that, you'd get somebody looking for a 7 gravy train and it just won't work, it just won't work. You've S got to give him something to do and the only thing you can do (} for him is be President of the Senate. That's the only thing you can give him to do. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Let him be Speaker of the House. 12 SPEAKER MURPHY: ,!?~~\\. ' . ,(';,,;;J) Jr-"!!!:!!.'~ ~: the House, we'll do it. If you can get it passed through /// /' (Laughter. ) SPEAKER MURPHY: We've had this argument before and ;:, i' I tried to help y'all abolis.h the job, you know, and we couldn't c' l:. l~' :;; even get them to do it then and lain' t going to help you no j)' more, I'll tell you that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Somebody that's not a Governor, ::0 Lieutenant Governor or Speaker, speak up. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I make this observation, the Speaker and I started out tHS morning about 10:30 agreeing on using marijuana for medical purposes, we were in agreement there and it looks to me like we're getting closer and closer as the day goes along. PAGE 93 SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me make a motion and see if me and him's still together. I move that we rewrite this Article putting the Lieutenant Governor back where he is as President of the Senate. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. Is there any discussion? SENATOR OVERBY: Yes. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well, yes. 1U GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Overby Senator Overby. SENATOR OVERBY: I feel this way about it, of course i( i ~~~' :'C.:.: 1 1 m not I've had the pleasure of serving under a number of Lieutenant Governors and have enjoyed serving under our present Lieutenant Governor. I just think that frankly that I feel -I now I agree with the fact that he should have some designated 2 duties, but I feel the Senate should elect its presiding , , officer just the same as the House does. And I agree there's problems on it and maybe we need to rewrite and spell out some provisions. But I think that the Senate should elect its own presiding officer. Certainly I feel that the duties should be specifically spelled out, as to what the Lieutenant Governor does, other than being ribbon cutter or sitting in, but I feel we should go that route or else we ought to think about abolishing the office. MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to point out that 1':\1 ;L 94 Michael Henry on our staff prepared a memo which outlines about eight different specific duties that are available, if 3 you would want to be more specific about exactly what his 4 duties are, how other states have addressed the issue. SENATOR OVERBY: I think we should have that informa- 6 tion where we can approach it. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think regardless of what this group does, you're going to have a Lieutenant Governor that 'i won't have anything to do and it's going to be done by changing J'.) the rules in the Senate if we don't give him something, J i .. regardless of what this group does, because they can, by rule, make him impotent. There's certainly no desire to do that in the present term (Laughter. ) I,,D. MR. BOLTON: Gracious. ::'1 Ii, SENATOR OVERBY: Let's don't do that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm a farm boy myself, I wouldn't want to do that. 19 REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You've also got him succeeding the Governor for the unexpired term which is anywher from one day to four years. That needs to be changed. Might as well change it all at the same time SPEAKER MURPHY: If we adopt mine we're in good shape, Jack. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have a motion and a second. I don't quite understand the motion, but let's discuss it. The !j motion is to leave it like it is. Go ahead. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead, Representative Snow. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I have a substitute motion, and that would be regardless of the fact that it has been suggested that the office is important throughout the nation, I would move that it be abolished and that the right of succession go to other constitutional officers that are - ,! available and that we already elect. \) 7 1! GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The right of sucession you're ~ ., ! "J , ta~ng about now, like it would go to the Speaker and you'd "\ J .' have a general election wi thin sixty days, now ninety days is what theyre proposing. SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, God, no. You'd have chaos, just total chaos. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Why would it be more chaotic than it is already? SPEAKER MURPHY: You're wide open but I ain't going "j to say it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The substitute motion is that the office be abolished. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: The Office of Lieutenant Governor be abolished. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Then you'd have two questions if 96 you did that though, Representative Snow, you'd have to address first. Presently you would have a Lieutenant Governor, j if it was abolished, who would have a right of succession, who would be the first and when would the election be called. :; REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: The election should be called h at the next general election. The successor would be the Speaker or -- SPEAKER MURPHY: No, no, no. MR. HARRIS: Prior to the Constitution of '45, the president of the Senate acted as Governor for a period of ,, ; i sixty days, during which time a special election was called l.' to fill the unexpired term of the Governor and then the second person behind the President of the Senate was the Speaker. SPEAKER MURPHY: What you're doing is totally ", ~ j5 "-.' I":' interrupting state government for about six months. That's " ,1 ) <- 1..1 about what you're doing. (, ?~ , '.'.:1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That sixty days is what it was IX then, they propose ninety days, in three months or ninety days, the people elect another Governor. 20 MR. HARRIS: And the change from sixty to ninety was made simply from the standpoint of time in getting an election called, ballots printed and distributed and all this sort of thing. There's nothing magic about the ninety other than just a SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Do you have a list -- you don't PAl~E 97 have copies of those duties that you researched? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: They sent them to us. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's see where we are and we'll continue with the discussion then. We've got a motion, a substitute motion and no second to the substitute motion. I was trying to clarify your motion, Wayne. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Okay, I think it needs clarification. The motion was to abolish the office of Lieutenant Governor. It wasn't thought through well enough to see what would be the successor there, but -- 1l - GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well we can come back to that, but when are you making it effective? Then we can come back. '. You're not making it effective during this term I hope. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Oh, certainly not. (Laughter. ) LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Taking into consideration , what Holloway said rather than have it abolished, I think I'd rather abolish it. (Laughter. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay. Is there a second to the motion? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second to Wayne's motion? (No response.) PACE 98 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, your motion is out of order and we'll go back to the motion that it be left as it is., 3 JUDGE CALHOUN: Is that still open for discussion? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's open for discussion. JUDGE CALHOUN: I think that the Lieutenant Governor now is sort of a hybrid office, partially Executive and partially Legislative. I guess it's authorized by the Constitu- h tion, otherwise it would violate the Constitution itself 'I having a member of the Executive exercise some of the powers of j( the Legislative. So I agree with Senator Holloway that the .', c. Lieutenant Governor ought to have some specified duty. One .... i. u 1.: thing that is mentioned of course is the head of the Board of Industry and Trade. I think he is an Executive officer, he ought to be an Executive officer, ought not to be a Legislative i ~ " officer. '.:... oJ' .> 1(, :..1 So I would oppose the Speaker's motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, any other discussion? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Let me make one more comment IX and I'll make it very brief. I would hope that regardless of ,') whether this passes or is defeated that every member of this 20 Select Committee will give some close study to the Office of 2] Lieutenant Governor and its duties, not just here in this state but over the whole United States. There is probably nothing that is more misunderstood than the office of a Lieutenant Governor. There is probably, nothing that has been .) criticized more than the office of Lieutenant Governor in recent _ - PAGE _- 99 .. _._._.. ,_.. years and yet throughout this nation you find Lieutenant , : Ii Governors like in Indiana heading up the same thing as the Department of Industry and Trade, you find in Massachusetts and in other states them being the person ill charge of the federal funds that come into the state. There are some significant duties that a Lieutenant Governor can be given. 'I , If you're going to put him in the Executive Branch, let's spell out these duties here in the Constitution or certainly by law before we ask the people to ratify this Article. That's the whole point that I'm making. J 1 _. ,..IY~ SENATOR OVERBY: I agree entirely with the Lieutenant l' I Governor, but I go right back to the same premise that the ,' ..: t 'j ; , .' ,I! k'~1 ,. ~: Senate needs to elect its own presiding officer. -t ._ i-- SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman? ." "r GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker. ,. c", SPEAKER MURPHY: It must be obvious to this group here after the discussion that we have had on the one paragraph, of this Article today, there is no way this Article can be got ready and submitted to the next session of the General Assembly with any hope of passage. That must be obvious to anybody. I would move that the discussion of this Article be postponed until after the next session of the General Assembly. All we're going to do is get it in such a mess, we ain't never going to pass nothing. That's what's going to happen to us. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I've got a substitute motion that I 100 think we're going to have to vote on. SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir, what was the substitute? i It didn't get a second. -I MR. HARRIS: It was the Speaker's motion. The ) substitute didn't get a second. It's the Speaker's motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Your motion -- the sUbstitute died for lack of a second. 'l MR. HARRIS: The Speaker's original motion is the '-I one on the floor. 1'.1 SPEAKER MURPHY: I'll withdraw it. I'll take care of that. Now I move that we defer further discussion of this ':. 1 ~: Article until after the next session of the General Assembly. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is that all of Article V? SPEAKER MURPHY: V ." -~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What is that? MR. HARRIS: Executive Branch. JUDGE SMITH: Well you have the Other Elected , Constitutional Officers in there too. Ii ~} LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I would agree with you, Mr. ~o Speaker, except also then you're going to affect Article III ) l because in Article III you've got that situation about the Lieutenant Governor again. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you this, as far as J. this one SPEAKER MURPHY: Sir? PAGE 101 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You're just saying it's because of the Lieutenant Governor, just that one thing, you want to hold up the whole Constitution as far as IV and V is concerned? SPEAKER MURPHY: That one thing, it must be pretty obvious, you know, this pretty well indicates that there ain't no way we're going to get Article V ready where it can pass the General Assembly for submission to the people in the next legislative session. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Because of the Lieutenant Governor? SPEAKER MURPHY: You agree with that, don't you? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I can see some real difficulties unless you have some real spelled out duties for the : -1- Lieutenant Governor, and that sort of thing. SENATOR OVERBY: If the duties were spelled out, Mr. Speaker, you wouldn't oppose it then, would you? SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir. I've made my position abundantly clear I think, Senator. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: We had a motion and then we had a substitute motion that the Senate elect its own leadership. Does that not get voted on first? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. I think Wayne's motion was one that was out of order because it was a substitute motion -- the main motion was the Speaker's motion and the Lieutenant Governor's motion that it be left as is. PACE 102 The substitute motion was your motion -- SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Not mine. MR. HARRIS: The only substitute motion was to abolish the office. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I made it and I did not get a second. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The substitute motion that I thought had been made was that the Senate elect its own SPEAKER MURPHY: That ain't in this Article, that's iii in the Legislative Article. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well, can I make such a substitute motion? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you this before you make -- yes, I think a substitute motion is in order, but just for a point of clarification, right now what you're talking about is the Lieutenant Governor is in the Executive -- that would be in III, is what you're talking about, part of the Legislative Branch, trying to put him in the Fifth Article, ;-; which is in the Executive Branch .'(J Now your motion is in order, but what I was talking about, Mr. Speaker, is I don't see why you would go down with all of Article V unless you were going to move him to the Executive Branch and you couldn't figure out what you were going to do with him. But now going back to yours, a substitute motion is PAGE 103 in order. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I make such a motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And yours is that -SENATOR HOLLOWAY: And of course that would anticipate setting forth specific duties for a continuing Lieutenant Governor. SPEAKER MURPHY: What motion is he making? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, so your motion is that the Lieutenant Governor -SENATOR OVERBY: I think it'd be an original motion -i now, Governor, since the Speaker has withdrawn his motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Have you withdrawn yours? SPEAKER MURPHY: I withdrew mine. I don't know, the Lieutenant Governor may not have withdrawn his second, I don't know. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm going to rule and it'll be a ruling of the Chair, but you made a motion, that motion is on the floor, a substitute was offered by Wayne Snow, he got no second, so your motion was left. You have asked to withdraw your motion. Do you want to withdraw it now? SPEAKER MURPHY: No, let's vote on it and get it over with one way or the other. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, now you've got a substitute -MR. HARRIS: A vote on his motion is going to determine the issue. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Wait a minute. Counsel is saying -1- Charlie is saying that what you're saying should be addressed in Article III. So your motion would be in order and when we get to Article III, your motion would be in order there. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But it's also addressed in this Article too. I'll move then that the Lieutenant Governor be assigned specific duties and spelled out. SPEAKER MURPHY: Well that's a substitute motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Your motion'is that you amend what's provided for in here by providing that he'll have additional . \"fr..j bJ) ~ " _.If, \ \ ! .":''''0 duties as prescribed by law SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Other than presiding over the Senate. ! :::, LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: That's what this says. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's what this says. SENATOR OVERBY: That's what you've got. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: So if you have the same as the !) Article Committee has, is what your motion is. All right, is there any objection to ordering the previous question which ".o:..! the Speaker had and the Lieutenant Governor's motion, that's the original motion that the Lieutenant Governor's Office be left as is as far as presiding officer is concerned? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, none then, that's open PAGE 105 I ' for discussion. Is there any further discussion on that motion? The sense of the motion is that the Lieutenant Governor's Office -- that the Lieutenant Governor will remain the presiding officer of the -- SPEAKER MURPHY: His duties remain the same. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right, his duties remain the same. All right, all those in favor -- '.: SENATOR HOLLOWAY: And such additional duties GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You will do that in Article III though. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You'll do that in the other ',; Article, you can give him additional duties or keep it like ~ it is, that'd be the place to address it. ,.,.\ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's right. All right, all those ':. in favor 1 c~; SENATOR HOLLOWAY: '~ 'j ,:. has to be addressed here. His presiding over the Senate REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You could still give him other duties. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But his presiding over the Senate has to be addressed here. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, all those in favor of the motion, raise your hands. (Votes were cast.) f'AGL 106 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five. All opposed. (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Five to four, it's adopted. All right. Now you'll address this when we get back to III I suppose. All right, that's adopted. Judge, I've kind of got lost in parliamentary -- JUDGE SMITH: Me too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: -- procedure there. JUDGE SMITH: Where were we? I assume what has been done is that Paragraph III of Section I, which relates to the Office of Lieutenant Governor is not adopted as drafted but whatever is there now will replace it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. JUDGE SMITH: There were some minor changes about i.l.' ;. 16 l~: '.1 residence and so forth, qualification for both offices, the 7 ., succession was clarified, as I stated before, in the case of varying degrees of disability. The questions that a couple of you have raised, in terms of the Governor's Office, we provided for two terms and then there is a hiatus of a complete term and then he's eligible to run back after skipping a term. In the case of a Lieutenant Governor, if he succeeds the Governor during a term, he serves the unexpired term and only one more as Governor. There's a lot of confusion GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That carne up in Maryland. 107 t ',\ ~X'Cl'A' ,I I' JUDGE SMITH: There was a lot of confusion about half terms and whether they count on the two-term limitation and so forth. In terms of the duties, they are essentially the same except for the one that I mentioned. It was recommended that all of the long language in that present Article relating to canvassing the votes and all be placed over in the Elections Article. Otherwise, the question of appointments and duties are essentially the same. The language is hopefully cleaned up. In terms of the other executive officers, there were two officers that the committee recommended be deleted as elected constitutional officers. The first was that of the State School Superintendent and this, of course, related to the fact that you had a Board to set policy and an elected superintendent to set policy. It also related to the fact that more and more it's a professional type job and our committee opted for the view that the Board should set the policy and the State School Superintendent should be responsible to the Board. So he was eliminated as a constitutionally elected officer. The other office eliminated from constitutional election was that of the Comptroller General. Again, it was felt that it was getting more and more to be a technical type of job having to do with rate making and other complicated PAGE 108 matters and that over a long period of time the opportunity of getting a qualified person in that job would be heightened by appointment. The ancient, historical reason for his election, signing warrants and all, has virtually been abolished and therefore it wasn't felt there was any more compelling reason to have him elected statewide. So that leaves the Secretary of State, Attorney General, Commissioner of Agriculture and Commissioner of Labor as state officers. Of course, the District Attorneys lU are also elected and are considered to be constitutional officers. The rest of it spells out the different duties -- SPEAKER MURPHY: Before we leave that, don't you think we need to talk about it. ,.":., 1: I;:' .",: GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Mr. Speaker. SPEAKER MURPHY: I personally will never agree for " the School Board to be appointed and the School Superintendent to be appointed, have appointed people running the schools of Georgia. I ain't never going to agree with that. I will be "'1 bftterly opposed to that at any section I'm also going to be opposed to taking the Comptroller Gener~l out as an elected officer, I'm going to be opposed to that. JUDGE SMITH: Let me just say as to the first one, the selection of the Board is over in the Education Article and , they have not yet, as I understand, Mel, come to a determination i ACE 109 I I of how it will be, whether it would be elected, whether it I: should be determined like the Highway Board or appointed by the Governor. They haven't reached that. SPEAKER MURPHY: The problem there, Judge, is a very simple problem because I've been facing it for years and years in my home territory. The problem there is if you're going to elect statewise school board members, you're going to have to give them full time jobs or you'd never get anybody to run and spend the money to run, to campaign. Consequently, you're either going to have to have them elected by the General Assembly, which the people ain't going to give up the right statewide to elect the State Superintendent or elect that.. It's just a matter of practical politics, people are giving up an elected office for nothing. They ain't going to do it " and there ain't no way you'd ever get a school board, state " school board elected by the people, it just can't be done. There's no way you could get qualified people to do it. Therefore, I think that it's just something that's just not practical any way you look at it. Ain't no way in practice in theory it may be beautiful to have your board, to get the best qualified man there is to be a school superintendent, but until you can elect the board, there ain't no way you can do that in practical politics. It can't be done. JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Speaker, may I ask you a question? Are there any states that now presently elect the members of the state school board? SPEAKER MURPHY: I have no idea, Judge. I would doubt it though, sir. JUDGE SMITH: Some of them do. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Senator Holloway? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I've got a question. I believe the Speaker mentioned the possibility of the legislature electing the Board -- SPEAKER MURPHY: Like they do the Highway Board members, right. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That'll never happen. SPEAKER MURPHY: I agree with that. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: We let the highway go, we're not ,i going to let the Board of Education go. Of course the House has got four votes to everyone the Senate has, there's j 6 I. nothing right about that. ,~'. l c SPEAKER MURPHY: We think it's great, but we didn't think y'all would like it. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The question I have, Judge, is why was the Veterans -- is the Veterans Administration still left in? JUDGE SMITH: We haven't got to that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's in Article IV . ., t SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But we're going to get to it, aren't we? J'AGE 111 JUDGE SMITH: I hope so. I ~ SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You left it in, did you not? JUDGE SMITH: Not I, the committee did. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: What was the thinking, rationale, of leaving them in -- SPEAKER MURPHY: We're way off the track now. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think what brought this up for discussion was he mentioned taking out Comptroller General and the State School Superintendent and leaving in the Commissioner of Labor, Agriculture, Secretary of State and i" Attorney General. MR. HARRIS: As a necessary nuisance. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Governor, I think we have l '," a serious question whether you could pass any of these .~ Constitutional amendments if you take these away from the people. SPEAKER MURPHY: Ain't no question. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I move the Comptroller General be put back in -- both of them, School Superintendent. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I second the motion. (The reporter changed the tape.) Harris. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We're back on the record now, Mr. Just a minute. She's trying to transcribe this. 1':\',,!, 112 One at the time. Mr. Harris. off. MR. HARRIS: I was just talking while the record was record. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: We were talking off the GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded that the Superintendent of Schools and Comptroller General remain as constitutional officers, that they be included, is that correct? 10 All right, is there any further -- SENATOR HOLLOWAY: May I explain my motion? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I want to be consistent, take them all out or leave them all in. I just don't see the thinking <: I: ;: ~; of hop-skipping and jumping around. I don't think there's a , l~ - ;! ,i) ~. chance of getting them all out, so my motion was made to leave c, ", ;:; it 1 ike it is. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any further discussion? JUDGE DEEN: Could we vote on these one at the time? .'1 i For example, I would like to vote to let the State School Superintendent be appointed since he is a technical man and an educator if we could -- now the Speaker says it can't be done and the Lieutenant Governor says maybe some of the other states elect the members of the State School Board -- now I had the occasion last year, I don't know whether any of you have PAGE 113 gone before the State Board of Education, but I went before 2 the State Board of Education to urge them to improve the law; that is on one or two points, one was that teaching values clarification in our universities and public school which is homicide games, you know, you've got twelve people and they say you've got room for eight, you students pick out the four you want to kill. They teach suicide: for example, one question that students are asked, to whom would you tell if you have considered committing suicide. Now I told the State Board of Education, I said, to infer that suicide is a constitutional right or to teach young people the fallout shelter game which is one of '79's horrible permissiveness games, is I think behind a lot of our permissivenessin society. Of course, the School Board, I felt like was very outstanding people but kind of non-responsive. I think if you really want to sell a new constitution, half of your money appropriated , by the state government goes to education, and if you really want -- if you could have one member elected from each congressional district, give this power back to the people. Particularly on these games that teach permissiveness and I think help flood our courts with a lot of crime. That's the reason I would like to vote on them separately. I'd like to vote for professionalizing the State School Superintendent on the condition that we have elected School Board members. On the other hand, I'd like to vote to put the Comptroller ; ".\,"'I,' 114 General back in as a state elected official. SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker. SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, as a matter of practical politics, let me give you my personal experience with the School Boards and School Superintendents. When my illustrious cousin, Judge Murphy, preceded me in the seat I now sit in, he passed one -- our School Board is appointed by the Grand Jury and our School Superintendent is elected by the people. ,n He passed a constitutional amendment to let the people elect the Board of Education provided the Board of Education then appointed the School Superintendent. It got beat four to one. Ud :i~.\;~J"~\''\);-~:"" ~, They ain't going to give up electing School Superintendent. /I /l /" They'll tell you, I don't mind voting to elect the Board but , ,, ., I ain't going to give up my right to vote for a School :.-':: ,( ,~ ." Superintendent. Cl , ,. Well, I thought I was smarter than him, you know, ~~ so I come along ten years later and I passed the same thing to let them elect the School Board members and let them appoint 'J the School Superintendent. I got beat worse than he did, got ~l beat four and a half to one that time. They said we'll vote to elect the School Board but we ain't going to give up our right to elect the School Superintendent. That's the way the people of Georgia are going to feel about this, it's just that simple. That's just practical I'ACE 115 politics. MR. HARRIS: Well now seventy-nine counties voted the other way, Mr. Speaker. MR. BOLTON: We elect the Board and they elect the Superintendent. SPEAKER MURPHY: Well I tried every way I could to get it passed. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Basically, it would be very desirable. This fellow who runs for Governor has to run largely on what he's going to do for education. The person ,"; 1 who is a School Superintendent has a set number of votes and he is not -- most of the people in the State are not even aware. \t' . that they're even voting for School Superintendent. But the Governor is the one who has to have full responsibility for it. He's the one that ought to be making the appointment. SENATOR OVERBY: I'd like to move the division of the question, that we vote separately on the Comptroller General and the School Superintendent. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. The motion is then that the question be divided. Is there any objection? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, I'll divide the question. The first question is the motion to reinsert the Comptroller General. Is there any discussion? 'I' "'116 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Done. All right. The next question is that the Superintendent be reinserted and be '--i all right, what's the motion on the Superintendent? You wanted to divide the question. MR. HARRIS: Well his motion was that you divide it, and that he be put back in as an elected official. ,,-\ :,vJj.'f\ (,\(. (I I. JUSTICE NICHOLS: Second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. <. I q ",::''1 l. JUDGE SMITH: can do with that one. Well that's about all the devilment we ,. J" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You're doing fine so far, Judge. JUDGE SMITH: I should point out that there are some word changes, but I don't think they're of substance. We have tried to get all of the specifics out of it and you will find the phrase "as provided by law" throughout it, so that we won't have to have the people come back every time we want PAGE 121 to change the duties of one of these elected constitutional officers. The General Assembly is given wide discretion in prescribing the duties to be performed by the different officers. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. JUDGE SMITH: Okay, you want to turn to Article IV? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well let's do this. Subject to ': the amendments that we have made, is there objection to adopting Article V, as amended by the Select Committee? i ') JUDGE SMITH: I think it's worth mentioning, the District Attorneys wanted to stay in the Judicial Article ~ and we put them clearly in the Executive Article. They are one \: i , of the parties before the court, and as the committee looked " at it, they are Executive officers, they represent the State against the citizenry and they ought to be in the Executive l Department. So that is clearly defined in this Article . 1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on that point? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: About the DAIs staying in the Executive Article? ,, MR. HARRIS: Moving them from the Judicial to -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: To the Executive. JUSTICE NICHOLS: I would be opposed to that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: They were opposed to it today. They did come by -- JUDGE SMITH: Let me give you the thinking. The thinking was that the District Attorney was one of the parties before the court and it oughtn't to be mixed up with the court. The court ought to stand alone. JUSTICE NICHOLS: A conflict of interest. l' JUDGE SMITH: Sir? 7 JUSTICE NICHOLS: A conflict of interest. JUDGE SMITH: That's right. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: We have gone through all that 10 on the Judicial Article. The majority of our committee I.; r- 'Y favored keeping the District Attorneys in the Judicial ? L! Article. I think it's going to be awfully hard to change that. JUSTICE NICHOLS: I think the Attorney General ) : ought to be in the Judicial. < 1: j : ,~, JUDGE SMITH: Well he's in both places. 'i He's a hybria. I 10 ~ In this draft he's in both. We were concerned with the Co ",:):: " immunities question. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We need to resolve this point. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I move that we remove the 2U District Attorneys from the Executive Article. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And put them back in the Judiciary? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Put them in the Judicial Articl~. JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and the motion is seconded. Any discussion on this? , ---------- -,---,----,----"---- PAGE 123 SPEAKER MURPHY: You did something smart, what happened to you? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Why don't you go to the ballgame. " GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor, say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's do this over. All in favor '- of putting them back in the Judiciary where they are now, .) raise your hands. ](1 ,;"J "'" ,:,~ "i.' ~ . ! -::I: " (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Opposed? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's unanimous, they're back in - the Judicial Article .,'. 1: MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I should point out that the 'I provisions on the veto power that are now in Article V have been transferred to Article III and there is just a reference -,''JI to the veto power of the Governor but all the specifics have been switched to III. We can cover that when we get there. \ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, that'll be deferred untii we get to III if there's no objectioh. ,I JUDGE SMITH: I think otperwise, there are mainly language changes and eliminating a lot of archaic -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to the adoption of Article V as we have passed on it, subject to the amendments PAGE 124 made by the Executive Committee -- Select Committee. 2 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Article V is approved. JUDGE SMITH: I ought to explain that we started out trying to make the changes that we felt ought to be done, (J irrespective of the political considerations. We didn't I quite succeed even within the committee, but we have utterly 3 failed here today. j) ! (Laughter. ) 10 MR. BOLTON: I was just remarking how federal judges ~? 7. are experienced in this. JUDGE SMITH: Well we had a good time inside. Assuming the sarne posture for Article IV, which is Constitutional Boards and Commissions, the subcommittee on 15 ~: that Article started with the presumption that nobody should iT. :J ] h ~'"; be in there and you ought to have to show cause why the Board ' 7. JUDGE SMITH: In all of these, we provided for the u OJ 3 current term to run out and then -- ':1 I: <.; r~: ill GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I understand. I think we had !; better discuss these one at the time. For instance, on II the Public Service Commission, you've heard the statement .. j Is there SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we continue to elect the Public Service Commissioners in the manner they're being elected now. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I'll second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and the motion }' '(-r c'-\ .... '. 126 is seconded that the Public Service Commission be continued as an elected commission. Is there discussion on this? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye. (Ayes. ) "7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: So done. It's going to remain 1U the same. ~) 1. Ii ,. ..0,o- All right, next will be the State Board of Pardons ~ /t.~\",. ~. j1.'~ and Paroles. ,I;, us:~)i " ;;: JUDGE SMITH: I should point out for your benefit ".' ~ " /1/ '---- (4 i::: on there, the current Constitutional Article is loaded down with . the members of the board shall be as provided by law." SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. "i ,:} 0: .:n J) 2 :':J GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Second? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any discussion? (No response.) .'0 aye. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Opposed? (No response.) .i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's unanimously adopted. SPEAKER MURPHY: What did we do about their terms up there? PAGE 135 - -~----------- ----------------------, Did we agree with the commission or the Pardons and Paroles Board? JUDGE SMITH: The Pardons and Paroles Board. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We were going to go with their recommendation as the proposal and with the consent of the Articles Chairman. SPEAKER MURPHY: I just wanted to know what y'all done while I was gone. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to that being incorporated? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not -- SPEAKER MURPHY: That young man's got -- MR. HENRY: I didn't see the proposal, but I was wondering if you wanted to specify the limitations on their powers which is presently contained in the Constitution. SPEAKER MURPHY: No. That's what we specifically didn't want to do. JUDGE SMITH: It'd be an outright grant. Philosophi~ ".j cally that's the theory. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Now the next after the Public Service Commission and State Board of Pardons and Paroles, the next thing we have is the State Personnel Board, Section III of Article IV. JUDGE SMITH: I don't believe there were any 136 substantive changes here. There is a current limitation of two terms and that was removed because we don't know anywhere else there is a limitation of two terms. MR. BOLTON: Actually, if you get a good one you S ought to keep him. JUDGE SMITH: We felt that was an unnecessary limitation. I don't believe there were any substantive change~, !: 8 were there? c) SPEAKER MURPHY: That was a terrible statement, !O Arthur. MR. BOLTON: I didn't mean it to go everywhere. ,, J I'll withdraw that. If you heard it, just forget it. JUDGE SMITH: The change about the terms GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the l~ ~ adoption of Section III, State Personnel Board? :, l (. :I' ,. 1 ',' Z." (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. JUDGE SMITH: I should point out in Paragraph II, we had some discussion there and the veterans preference is 2(; preserved there, but it only applies to state government. 2' There was some confusion as to whether a municipality or county had to give a veteran preference and the commntee felt that was going too far and we just left it for state government and let the local governments decide on that. ,. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Is there any objection! I PAGE.; 137 to the adoption of State Personnel Board, Paragraphs I and a1s~ Paragraph I, veterans preference? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. All right, State Transportation Board, Section IV. JUDGE SMITH: All right, it's back in. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Mr. Chairman, I move that that State Transportation Board be as provided by law, not as part of the Constitution. i ".j SPEAKER MURPHY: I think the worst part of it, they've got it back getting us out of there again. MR. TIDWELL: That's just like it was, Mr. Speaker. JUDGE SMITH: The language is just like it is. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: If we leave it out of the Constitution, the statute stays the way it is. '-' JUDGE SMITH: That's correct. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: We don't need it in the Constitution. It's awfully had to justify keeping that one in if we don't keep some of the others in. SPEAKER MURPHY: That ain't the way I read this thing now, Mr. Snow, you and Mr. Connell down there. If you read that last sentence, "As each term of office expires, the Governor shall appoint a successor as herein provided." JUDGE SMITH: That was a scribner's error, that should be .I" ;1-(.',LI", 138 SPEAKER MURPHY: It sure was somebody's error, I'll agree with that. JUDGE SMITH: The intent was that the selection 4 process remain the same if we keep it in. MR. HILL: That was just an error. MR. HARRIS: They had already caught it. SPEAKER MURPHY: They just didn't catch it in my " draft. MR. HARRIS: It was caught in pencil. JUDGE SMITH: "Selected" is what it should be 11 instead of "appointed". (\ "",y REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: That was a mistake, wasn't it. MR. lfARRIS: It's supposed to read, "As each term "I v of office expires, a successor shall be elected as herein :, provided." ~"le had already caught it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You move now that -- REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I move that the State Transportation Board be as provided by law. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's already the law. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: And eliminated from the Constitution. SPEAKER MURPHY: Is that not in the Constitution now?' JUDGE SMITH: Yes, this Board is in there but a companion statute so it would continue as a statutory board REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: As a point of clarification, PAGE 139 I , there are several boards that you folks have left out. These have, for some reason or other, been included. The first three are definitely needed in the Constitution, in my opinion JUDGE SMITH: They were the first put back in after they were all eliminated. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I'm going to do the same thing with Veterans Service Board. SPEAKER MURPHY: Well I'm going to move to put one back in. !I; REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well -- good. (Laughter.) SPEAKER MURPHY: c ~~ where you belong. Why don't you go on in yonder ,I I' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion on Section IV is to 1" delete Section IV and go by statute. Is there a second? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is the statute already in effect? JUDGE SMITH: Yes, sir. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Then I won't vote with him, I'd sure like to change the provision of how they're elected. If we have to write another statute, that'd be beautiful. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second to del,~te it from the Constitution? (No response.) ! GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There is no second. The motion dies. PAC!', 140 MR. HARRIS: You're sitting too close to Judge Deen. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a motion now to adopt the Article Committee -SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, no, sir, I've got a motion I'm committed to make. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, make it. SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we put the Board of Natural Resources back in. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you one thing, I intended to do it. If you're going to leave the Transportation Board .J in and you're going to leave the Veterans Service Board in, you're going to kill the rationale I think of what has gone on anyway. So I think if you're going to put the State Transportation Board back in and you're going to put the Veterans Service Board in, there's no reason -SPEAKER MURPHY: I wouldn't mind taking the Veterans Service Board out. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What rim saying is if you're putting those in, I think you ought to put back in your Natural Resources, which is the next thing, and your Industry and Trade. JUDGE SMITH: As a matter of interest, in the committee we talked about the Department of Human Resources, they spend more money than the others, why shouldn't they be in? This was the kind of dialogue we went through. SPEAKER MURPHY: I'll give you one she's got that dadblamed thing on again, ain't she. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Seriously though, is there any rationale for keeping the State Transportation Board in the Constitution? MR. HARRIS: Ego. SPEAKER MURPHY: No, sir, it ain't ego, it's a matter that some of us remember the old days, Mr. Snow. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well we've still got a statute. SPEAKER MURPHY: Would you wait just a minute? Some of us remember the old days when somebody on the Board did something that somebody didn't like, they just repealed the board and got them out of office and started allover and put a new crowd in, and we just don't want it to ever get where that could happen again. That's just basically it. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well I don't think that's ever going to happen. SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't either, but I don't want to take a chance. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We have to have a motion -MR. BOLTON: Since we've had this Board I've not seen a Governor come on the scene who didn't name his director. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Everyone does. They've got as much power now as they ever had before. 142 ---i MR. BOLTON: I want you to know I stood on the floor to explain this constitutional amendment y'all are talking about. JUDGE SMITH: The committee felt that if politics was going to rule it, it doesn't make any difference whether its statutory or constitutional. MR. BOLTON: I said it would get it out of politics insofar as you could get the Highway Board out of politics ,. and everybody laughed. SPEAKER MURPHY: I was one of the three that voted , against it. : GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to correcting the scribner's error there about "As each term of office expires, the successor shall be elected as herein provided.. "? If not, it's -- the Article Committee's report is so amended. Now then the question is on the adoption of the Article Committee's recommendation, is there a motion? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Did we vote on Veterans Service Board? GOVERNOR BUSBEE; You made a motion and you didn't get a second, it's out of order. Now the question is REPRESENTATIVE SNOW; Mine was on the State Transportation Board. You asked me if I was __ I::::' ! ~, l the Governor has to, under the Constitution as it presently G J; I~: is, has to give the Pardons and Paroles Board authority to investigate. 19 JUDGE SMITH: Well on the general subject, we were trying to get the Governor out of the process, that the Board ,. l should not use the Governor as an excuse not to do this or that, but the Board ought to take its responsibilities and move forward. We, inside the committee we did not feel that they should wait until the end of all litigation to start PAGE 149 ready, to stop some of the delay that you're talking about. 2 They debated that back and forth but felt as a matter of ;! constitutional authority that it ought to be an outright grant and it would have to be corrected by appointment. JUSTICE NICHOLS: If the legislature -- now this (, comes in again with the legislature having authority to put some limitation on it -JUDGE SMITH: They don't under what you have just adopted. JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's what I'm saying. As of <', now there's no limitation at all, they can grant everyone of , them and possibly will -- SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge-GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker? SPEAKER MURPHY: The only thing that I can say on this is I'm fully cognizant of some things you have said, but the only argument in direct conflict or on the other side of this issue is, as I understand it the appellate courts, the jurors decide the issue of the fact, that's the way it's supposed to be done. The Superior Court Judge and the Appellate Court decide the question of whether the law itself has been complied with to see that this man is tried and sentenced to the electric chair. The function of the Pardons and Paroles Board would not be to look to the legal requirements of it, but would be to look to see if a jury had been 150 inflamed or something of that nature to grant -- to issue the death sentence and that's the last say as to what the facts -,, are. I think that's basically the reason for that, isn't it, Judge? JUDGE SMITH: Yes. It's not supposed to be a legal test but a mercy test, clemency test. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the reason it was put there. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It was taken from the Governor. You have a right to commute a sentence -- in every state where ]0 you have the death sentence you have some right for some V 7. IJ b part of government to commute the sentence. The people took "- !,j.; c: '.' it from the Governor and put it in this Board, Constitutional " 'p-' ~ \;,!__~I..!!..T~~"I:_ .. , Board. It's a question whether you're going to have anybody with the right to commute a sentence or not. That might be in order but unless there is a motion -- SPEAKER MURPHY: ,. i:il can conunute it. There ought to be somebody who JUSTICE NICHOLS: To answer your question, Mr. Speaker, in Jackson v. Virginia, the Supreme Court handed down, last June, they held that the District Court Judge -- I'm talking about evidence now -- the District Court Judge, after all this has taken place, has the authority and is directed SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the Supreme Court of the United States, sir? JUSTICE NICHOLS: Yeah. Mandated, that they go PAGE 151 [,-- ..----.--- .. _---------------1 through the records with a fine toothed comb and determine just exactly what I quoted to you. They must find that there is sufficient evidence in the record to convince a reasonable trier of facts -- this is a quote -- that every element of the crime has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Now after 27 people have already said there is sufficient evidence to do that, they still have SPEAKER MURPHY: They said the District Court Judge (} : could set it aside on his own -- '- 10 JUSTICE NICHOLS: Yes, sir, that's Jackson v. :{, ; ~ 'r Virginia. SPEAKER MURPHY: Since I got out of the criminal law' , " practice, I don't keep up with that any more but that is .i .:~ ridiculous, I agree with that. JUSTICE NICHOLS: That's what I'm talking about. !f} .. Of course, I don't know that -- I went along with you on this thing, I'm just calling it out to you because it's in the Board. We created it as a constitutional board but I sometimes: I doubt the wisdom if we don't have some limitation Here are five men who are laymen, know nothing about -- of course it's a mercy thing, but thi.s is dealing with exactly what you're talking about, evidence. Now if it's law that's a different story, but under Jackson v. Virginia, that's what they held. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any further discussion? SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve the Article as we .... - -_._-_.. _ - - _ . _ - _ . _ - j ['A(;E 152 I 'i have tentatively approved each section. 2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made, is there a second? REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I'll second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. JUDGE SMITH: Unless there's some more boards you want to put back in. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Article is adopted. (, i ! REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: You haven't heard from the others, they'll be heard from. SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me ask the question that the ,'.~'iY!(,~, Attorney General has brought up, Judge Smith, that you might .'(r;cJ)') - ;,~".". -\,\.' , _" < // .. /. have the answer to that I had never thought of. Do we have any way to get rid of any of these board members if they ain't competent or anything like that, under :'; ": our Constitution? MR. BOLTON: These are just appointed board members, they have the right to be impeached, you can actually impeach them; as I view it, it applies only to an elected Constitution4l officer. You shouldn't have to impeach a member of the ) I Department of Offender Rehab. somewhere. There should be a method that the legislature could provide by law for removal of appointed constitutional board members .:l JUDGE SMITH: This Constitution provides that removal from office is a proper subject for the General Assembly. PAGE 153 SPEAKER MURPHY: There is a provision for that in \'- the Article? All right. MR. HARRIS: As to each one. JUDGE SMITH: That's part of each one. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, that motion was adopted~ Thank you, Judge. JUDGE SMITH: Thank you all. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Next -- Harold, I'm sorry the Judge took so long. JUDGE SMITH: It wasn't my fault. (Brief pause.) :> "'.' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Harold, you want to go on and take off on yours then? MR. CLARKE: Yes, sir. I do not have any boards to . be put back in or removed. I think you'll find that most of what we have here deals with fairly practical politics except " for a broad basic philosophic thing, the Article being one that gives a broad grant of power and then goes into limita- tions, and I would hope that the Select Committee, prior to ., ,., finishing its consideration of this Article would at least .....' make an expression for the record to build some legislative intent or history in favor of the philosophy of there being a broad inherent power of the General Assembly with specific limitations. It is my feeling that this would go a long ways in reducing the necessity for constitutional amendments down _ _ _ _ _1 the road. PAGE 154 I suppose the best thing to do is go section-by- section and paragraph-by-paragraph in those where there are changes. Would that be okay? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that would be appropriate. () If there are no objections, proceed. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I of Section I, there is no change except as a -- SPEAKER MURPHY: There is a change. MR. CLARKE: No, sir, I'm not to Section II yet. Paragraph I is only a statement '.:1 SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, yeah. MR. CLARKE: I'll get to that in just a minute. Now Paragraph I of Section II, there is a change in h " that the present Constitution provides that the state Senate ll" shall have not more than 56 members nor less than 54. rrhis changes it to exactly -- or rather, this puts a ceiling of 56 but puts no floor. There can be a reduction below the 54 under this provision. SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman .' I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Mr. Speaker. SPEAKER MURPHY: In the Committee -- subcommittee, ,\ which the Lieutenant Governor and I were members, we had this .') pegged at "shall be not less than 56 SenatorsUand in the next one not less than 180. It got somewhere else and it got changed. PAGE 155 " .-------------------r I don't know when it got changed but I'm going to make a motion, if it's all right, here and now that we change that "more" to 'less than 56" and then you can make it for me on the other one, will you, Governor? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: All right. (, MR. CLARKE: By way of explanation, I will say this, -, that the Speaker is absolutely correct. The subcommittee set it at not less than ,) - -,- MR. HARRIS: Set it at 56. MR. CLARKE: Fifty six, you're correct, and then the!i full committee changed that and put "not more than 56". So '.' that is how this came about. SPEAKER MURPHY: I move that we change the "more" to "less". LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Second. ~: Speaker? REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: In both of them, Mr. SPEAKER MURPHY: He's going to make the motion for I" us, I'm making it for him. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you this, who would set -- under the subcommittee, they recommended the exact number? MR. CLARKE: Yes, sir. so that GOVERNOR BUSBEE: "Shall be 56" and "shall be 180", MR. CLARKE: No, sir. The subcommittee recommended PAGE 156 , " that it shall be 56 and the subcommittee then recommended that the House be not less MR. HARRIS: The subcommittee said 180. SPEAKER MURPHY: No, we didn't, we went back and changed that. MR. CLARKE: I believe for the House they said not . less than. SPEAKER MURPHY: We went back and changed that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, the motion is that paragraph, iU (a) "The Senate shall consist of not less than 56 Senators, c,O. .. each of whom shall be elected from single-member districts." ::) "- , , Is that the motion? .II >. ~ -; :r }:1 ,.~ SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there a second? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Second. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, any discussion? (No response.) ]'i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. All right (b). MR. CLARKE: I think the same thing is applicable, so I don't think it needs any explanation. PAGE 157 LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I make a motion that we "more ll to "less". GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. 1 SPEAKER MURPHY: I second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion has been made and " seconded. Any discussion? (No response.) K GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye~ q (Ayes. ) II \ " ... GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. All right, go ahead. '" , z 1 '-, MR. CLARKE: Paragraph II contains a change that is ,~. 12- ,-, " slight but nevertheless important and significant. It says "The General Assembly may provide for apportionment of Senate ", ! and House districts. II That language is envisioned as allowing r for some general law which would -- could set up some sort of commission to do it should the General Assembly deem it c c, 0' wise. Otherwise it's pretty much the same as in the past. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a motion on that? Is . I~j there objection to adopting Paragraph II of Article III? 'I,) (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph III. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph III has one change in the '. age criteria for being a member of the Senate, it's changed from 25 to 21, the same as the House. t',\GE 158 SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I object. MR. HARRIS: You haven't seen 25 in 35 years. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: What's the thinking in changing 'T it from 25? SPEAKER MURPHY: We tried to bring the Senate up to (, a par wi th the House. (Laughter. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a substitute motion? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think it ought to go from 25 \() to 45. I have a substitute motion that the Senate remain 25 j j years of age. \' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, the substitute motion is that the Article be changed to make it 25 years of age I: ;; which is the present Constitution for the Senate. Is there a '"1. 1S ~: second? " REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I'll second the motion. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. All right, is there objection? (No response.) .:0 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, the Senate remains at 25 21 and I assume now -- 1""1 SPEAKER MURPHY: Wait a minute now. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Shouldn't we vote on it? MR. HARRIS: You'd better take a vote for the record, Mr. Chairman. PAGE 159 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all those in favor of 2 the motion, raise your hand. 3 (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four. All right, opposed? <; :: (Votes were cast.) LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I want to explain my vote. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You can explain it, but you lost. x Five to three, so the motion is adopted. Explain your vote in less than fifty words. :u LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: The reason that I voted 11 against it, my original motion in our subcommittee was to ' t , , , - -,/ I ./ take the age qualification off altogether and I think we finally came up with that 21 as a compromise to that. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Altogether? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Altogether. If they'll elect somebody -- don't you believe in the vote of the people?! MR. HARRIS: You've been talking about it all the time. ,; SPEAKER MURPHY: How is that going to read now? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: For drafting, is there any objecti~n to "At the time of their election, the members of the Senate shall be citizens of the United States, shall be at least 25 - years of age " Let them draft it there but then it would read 21 years for the Representatives. All right, is there objection? PACE 160 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph III as amended 3 ' is adopted, 25 years for Senators. All right, Disqualification is IV, let's move on. ,; MR. CLARKE: Paragraph IV dealing with disqualifica- (; tions, the main change there has to do with persons who are on temporary active duty with the Armed Forces not being disqualified, if they're on permanent active duty, they would. ,) Otherwise it's the same as previously. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go ahead. '.'j MR. CLARKE: Skipping down then to (c) under IV, ., I. ~:. there is the -- SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Mr. Chairman, there was another J~t ,- change in Paragraph III evidently, the citizenry requirement I s ..,,.~ of four years in the Senate and two in the House ::..' I ;. U r.'J :1. "C', GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Say that again. 1: '" .., <, I ))' SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Was that not so? 18 II,: MR. HILL: It was made uniform, that's right. J9 )\ SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I would also like to move that 20 stay four years. 2J SPEAKER MURPHY: Mr. Chairman. ,,,-, GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. ., '-. SPEAKER MURPHY: You two Judges, am I not correct, has not the Federal Court ruled that you can't have a require- ment over a year or something similar to that? PAGE 161 ------ ----- ------------1 I JUSTICE NICHOLS: I'm not familiar with that. ! i REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I have a recollection of that. I MR. HILL: Those relate more to voting. MR. TIDWELL: Voter eligibility, not -- I think '; it's still within the purview of the state to set qualifications I o for officeholders. SPEAKER MURPHY: I'd just have to say a year is long enough to live in a district. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Is your motion -!) you want to reconsider the Paragraph III? 'i SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Yes. We changed the 21 back to I? ,~; 24 for the Senate and I -- .~ '. ,,-; I It,' ~1 l . i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Twenty five. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: -- requirements for citizenship, 15 ,'J. four years. :", GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want it left the same as it is, now, 25 years of age and four years of residence in the distri~t? .:. ;.~ SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Yes. SPEAKER MURPHY: What was it for the House? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Two years. SPEAKER MURPHY: I think we ought to leave it one year for both myself. I object. '. , MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I believe the present Constitution provides four years in the State and one year in the district. PAGE 162 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: For the Senate? MR. CLARKE: For the Senate, yes, sir. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well I just don't propose to change it, I don't think we need it changed. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What you would be doing, both of them you would just have to have been a resident of the district for one year, but for the House you would have to be a resident of the State for two years and for the Senate a resident of 'i the State for four years. I think I'm right on that. SPEAKER MURPHY: Yeah, you're right, it's a _. resident of the State four years in the Senate and two years in the House and one year in the district in both of them. I really object to that. I can't see -- being a i I-~ ~., resident a year, that's long enough, if anybody's going to r ~) ~':.~ elect them they deserve what they're going to get anyway. ,-,,; ) (.~ ~ SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I'd like to increase it. " GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's have a motion on it. We i "~ have reconsidered so Paragraph III is up now. The recommendale; tion of the Articles Committee is that they will be 21 years of age, been a resident of the State for two years and a resident of the district for one year. All right, now anybody i 10 -- that's the proposal, any change? Give me your change proposal, any motion. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I believe we've already voted on the age situation, Mr. Chairman. PAGE 163 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Twenty five, right. We reconsidered, you asked me to reconsider it. Is there any objection to re-adopting the 25 year age limit for the Senate? REPP~SENTATIVE SNOW: Why don't we make i t 25 for both houses. SPEAKER MURPHY: Let's make it 21 for both. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there a second? You remake your motion for 25. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: My motion was to increase the iO two years to four years for the Senate. \.; GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to what I you have already done? We have to reconsider the action that ..~ i /.,.. ,4 i I!" - was taken in order to go back to consider the paragraph as a whole. If there is no objection to leaving your action of 25 years for the Senate, it's 25. All right, now go to your residence requirement, what's your motion on that? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That the Senate be four years GOVERNOR BUSBEE: As a resident of the State and one year as a resident of the district, which is what it is today. The motion is made, is there a second? REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: I second it. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I make a substitute motion tha~ I I 'J both the House and the Senate be four years and one year. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Do what? PAG)i; 164 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I make a substitute motion that the Senate and the House be four years in the State and one year in the district. SPEAKER MURPHY: Do you realize what you're doing? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Not really. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: A substitute motion is made. Is there a second to the substitute? SPEAKER MURPHY: You're giving all the advantage to the Senate, don't you understand that? 1i-motion. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I withdraw my substitute "'Y'Y~1" ., SPEAKER MURPHY: When you seconded the motion, (tiE";)) rC""~'.;; you're giving them the advantage. ~., / REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I didn't second his motion. ,' l,l \I;I~: 166 (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. Is there any objection having the drafting committee redraft that to reflect your intent? (No response.) " GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, they are so instructed. Next paragraph, Harold. ,(, MR. CLARKE: All right, sir, on disqualifications " I believe we've already talked or perhaps we were just !) .1 beginning to talk Paragraph IV, subparagraph (a) which deals .- -j with persons on temporary active duty with any branch of .I : the armed forces. i ) .~) ,, u: GOVERNOR BUSBEE: :6 c~: any objection to that? You did explain that. Is there (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. All right, (b) MR. CLARKE: In (b) there is no change from the -- )t ~., l GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to (b)? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Now you wanted to discuss this? MR. CLARKE: Yes, the present Constitutional , - - - --~~ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - PAGE 167 provision requires that no member of the General Assembly can serve as an appointed official in any job that is created during the time he's in the General Assembly. This would change this to simply say that he would have to resign in ) order to be appointed to that position. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any discussion: on this? MR. BOLTON: Under the present law if you create a new Superior Court Judgeship in a circuit, a member of the General Assembly that was serving would not be eligible for '1 ,l appointment. This way he would be eligible for appointment if he chose to resign. MR. CLARKE: That is correct. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there a motion that (c) be adopted? REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Moved. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made, is there a second? " JUSTICE NICHOLS: I'll second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. All right, now is there any discussion? JUDGE DEEN: I don't believe the people would like that motion, but go ahead. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well if you want to speak 1 JUDGE DEEN: Well i t just might be a _li~_t_t_l_e__ ~~~~ec t iif 1 - PAGE 168 an additional office was created by the General Assembly and then several of those proponents were appointed to that -- I would discourage it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any other discussion on it? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all those in favor of the amendment, raise -- rise and stand and be counted. (Votes were cast.) !O ,~",!Y.J:(~\ ~ 1, /. :) "- 1 '") C: j, ~.; ,!\'(-"~'t~- ~J'..'/\)'//>,1r-!~!!!'-~~ Z :? l4 r GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Three. VOICE: Four. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four, I'm sorry. All opposed. (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four. Let's everybody vote. (Laughter. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No. I want to count your votes, . rJ-, t: ,I, I I m not trying to pres s anybody on thi s. All in favor. I S f 7 ~ had five, is that right? No, wait a minute. All in favor of the motion, rise and stand and be counted. (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. All opposed. (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Four. ~ opposed to that provision, I think it's bad, so I'm against it. SPEAKER MURPHY: What do you want to do then? MR. BOLTON: I think go back to the old one. PAGE 169 SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is that a new provision? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That1s a new provision, isn1t it? MR. CLARKE: There is an old provision, this one is just a little more liberal than the old one in that it does allow you to resign and be appointed. The old one would not allow you to be appointed at all. MR. HILL: The present Constitution says IIOuring the term for which he was elected, no Senator or Representativ~ shall be appointed to any civil office which has been created during such term." And that language can now be inserted back into this. ,. " GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to reinserting that? , ,.~ (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Then it1s reinserted. All right, Paragraph V, Election and term of members. MR. CLARKE: There is no change in Paragraph V. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adoption of Paragraph V? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it1s adopted. All right, Section III, Officers of the General Assembly. ,I MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I has the obvious change that has already been discussed by the committee regarding the 170 Lieutenant Governor, or rather the election of the presiding ) :, officer by the Senate. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We just addressed this now, I don't know how to handle it, in another Article. SPEAKER MURPHY: What Paragraph I did was put the Senate in the same position as the House. In case the '7 President dies or resigns or the Speaker dies or resigns the President Pro Tern goes to the President's job just like the Speaker Pro Tern does to the Speaker's job. That's all it ;,.1 does. 1\ MR. CLARKE: That's Paragraph I(b). SPEAKER MURPHY: Paragraph I just puts it like the House is now. I) MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I(a) provides that the Senate, l5~: -.~. J ( .~ l. .,.'!; 1i ::: elect its own presiding officer. That's the one you've already acted on. SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, my God, when did y'all change that? .l \) ,I -'\. ., MR. CLARKE: At that same -SPEAKER MURPHY: Same meeting I wasn't at? MR. CLARKE: See what happens when you don't come. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I think that matter was addressed on a previous vote. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We voted once. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: This is where we wanted to - ---- ----P-A- -G-E----1-7-1- - I ] " give the Lieutenant Governor additional duties. SPEAKER MURPHY: Where is the language, Lieutenant l " Governor, that we adopted in our subcommittee that worked this thing over? MR. HILL: Back in the files. SPEAKER MURPHY: Well I want to go back to what the subcommittee did, that's what I want. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: This is where we have to give the Lieutenant Governor additional duties. We already ,...... I' " did keep him like he is, we want to give him additional duties, :. 7 .:" and take that (a) out. ., LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: What you put there in place of (a) is that the Lieutenant Governor shall be President of the Senate. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right, shall be President of the Senate and have such other duties as assigned by law. \ .-; "Y-o jI <:f' REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Thatls right, that's what you want to do. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Now what you had in this other one -- I think if youtre going to do this, 1 1 11 go along with this, that you provide -- and you had it under V, "The Lieutenant Governor shall have such executive duties " First, hets the presiding officer. "The Lieutenant Governor shall have such executive duties as prescribed by the Governor and as may be prescribed by law not inconsistent with the powers PACE 172 of the Governor or the provisions of this Constitution." SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is that the present? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's what was proposed when you ,/ were going to expand his authority. SPEAKER MURPHY: Where is the section that says he'll be presiding officer of the Senate? MR. TIDWELL: On page 12. MR. HARRIS: Page 12 of the present Constitution. 'I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is the way it would read II (a) The presiding officer of the Senate shall be styled the 1' President of the Senate. "(b) A President Pro Tern shall be elected by the Senate from among its members. The President Pro Tern shall become 14 i"~- President in case of the death, resignation or permanent ( :;: , " ~ disability of the President. "':1 SPEAKER MURPHY: We've done put the Lieutenant : 7 Governor back as presiding officer of the Senate. l:s I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. lY I MR. HARRIS: You've done that in Article V. 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But here's what I'm getting to right now. MR. HARRIS: You designate him here as the President' of the Senate. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: That's what you need to do ,.::, here and give him such other duties as provided by law. PAGE 173 MR. HARRIS: When you specify in Article V, the Executive Article, as you voted to change it, what the change will now reflect is what you said, and that is that the Lieutenant Governor shall be the President of the Senate. That will be designated in Article V, so you don't need to repeat it in Article III other than to eliminate that portion of (a) that says "and shall be elected by the Senate from among its members". GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think he's right. Is there any objection then, to be consistent with what we have just ~ done, if we simply strike those words, is that what we voted .~ " ., on, "and shall be " no - MR. TIDWELL: It's just the way you read it, Governor. The way you read it is what Robin just said. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: "The presiding officer of the Senate shall be styled the President of the Senate." And eliminate the rest. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Is there objection? MR. HARRIS: Now you have already said who the -. President of the Senate is . GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: But here you want to also say "and shall have have such other duties as provided by law. ": You need to add that. MR. HILL: That will be specified over in V. PAGE ).74. REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: Would it be appropriate for V? We said over in V we were going to specify that in III. MR. HILL: Well we're going to specify his executive duties in V. MR. TIDWELL: It'll be in V, Jack. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's where you're going to put it back now after you've taken this action, you're going to put it back, II s hall have such additional duties as -- where is that wording, I had it in front of me. You've already ~. got it in front of you on V, "The Lieutenant Governor shall .1 have such executi.ve duties as prescribed by the Governor and as may be prescribed by law not inconsistent with the powers of the Governor or other provisions of this Constitution. 1I '/1 I. ,,', MR. HARRIS: And we're going to add back in there 1:1 as you have directed that the Lieutenant Governor shall be CJ t, the President of the Senate. I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to that now1 '4 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not -- well go ahead, Senator Holloway. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: IIWhen a President Pro Tempore becomes President of the Senate as provided in this paragraph, such President shall receive the same compensation, allowances as the Speaker of the House of Representatives. The provisions PAGE 175 ii of this paragraph shall become effective on the first day of \1 ) iI II the regular session of the General Assembly." Are we leaving .J i,'I all that out? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, that needs to be addressed. I, ii 6 because SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Of course it does, sure it does, SPEAKER MURPHY: All we did was change -- put the same language for the Senate that we did for the House and the Speaker Pro Tern, where if something happened to me, Jack :u would move up and he'd get my salary as a matter of law, just ~; .~ :) .' .,. I- \ "';'TI~'U'l ' )I~--- ,! like you would get his without all that garbage in Constitution MR. HILL: That's handled by law, that's the why SPEAKER MURPHY: You can handle that by law, Jack, \ ::: ;.) that's the way the law provides. MR. HILL: And it wasn't felt -- I mean, this is 2. .,. exactly the same. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That sentence is in the law? MR. HILL: Uh-huh, it's in the law now. You know, 20 that's the very kind of thing that ought to be mechanical -- ", I, SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I understand. MR. TIDWELL: Is it, Frank? Is it in the law? MR. EDWARDS: (Nodding head negatively.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Wait a minute, Ham and Frank both are saying that's not in the law now. - ---- -- --.----- - MR. HILL: --'~ I The intention is that this be covered by law. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: But we have to pass that through the House in order for that to be. MR. HILL: And the effective date is July of '81 (, to give us the next session of the General Assembly SPEAKER MURPHY: Look, Mel, it says "The Speaker " Pro Tern shall become Speaker in case of the death, resignation or permanent disability of the Speaker." Now that means J!! he's going to get the Speaker's salary and the Speaker' s offic~ I:,\s,v~d~\ 1I :J '. l~ J \\::-l .' ..t. f,-,~ \ .)' r-c',-,---'.".," ". /;';, ''<~::'::/ / 1+ > and everything the Speaker's got, is, he's going to get it. That's Arthur? MR. BOLTON: Yeah. whatever all that little amount it can mean, ain't it, SPEAKER MURPHY: Don't the same thing -- ., t 6 Z" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think you're right as far as '':"1 < I 7 ,'" that's concerned but I don't think you're right as far as the \ C> Senate is concerned. 1c';J LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: It's not in the law. ,'() GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's not in the law. MR. TIDWELL: What this committee needs to do is do what the subcommittee adopted on this provision, isn't _.\ that right, Ham, you were a member of that subcommittee. And ., ~_.~f it squared -- it put the Speaker Pro Tern and the President , ;~ Pro Tern in the same posture of receiving the salary, but this --,---- - ----.---- ' - - - ' - - -~----------.---_.'-- - - -~--- --------- ,._---_._------------ .----------._--_._--~-~--- PAGE 177 does not do it. What this committee has to do is go back and 2 adopt the subcommittee's proposal. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to move that we do this? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I don't want to jump into this ) thing hurriedly and take twenty years to straighten it out -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What I'm saying is this, you're right it is not covered under the Constitution. It was a misapprehension -- well, I'll just say this, we were just wron~I, it's not in the statute. So if you're going to correct it and I I :J make it consistent, it needs to be done now. MR. TIDWELL: I can go find it if you want to pass on to something else. I , ,.~' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's just go to the next paragrap~ while he finds it, he thinks it's in there. Do you think it's in the law, Charlie? MR. TIDWELL: Pardon? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You think that's in the law? MR. TIDWELL: It's not in the law but we've got a proposal to put in the Constitution, everybody can see what '-' we're talking about. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay, go ahead. MR. CLARKE: Governor, what Charlie is talking about is that the subcommittee had an entirely different Section III ".l and perhaps it would be well to skip over Section III until he comes back with it. PAGE 178 " GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection that we suspend on Section III? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Go to Section IV then if there's no objection. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph I of Section IV deals with the time for meetings and the time for adjournment. The significant thing with regard to Paragraph I(a) is that it not only says you will meet in regular session beginning on the second Monday in Janua~of each year, but it also adds ; l "or as otherwise provided by law". There has been some talk !l ~: about the possibility of having a one-day pre-session session for organization purposes in December. This would allow that to be done by statute. The (b) of Paragraph I attempts to clarify the "..: .:J 1(I f provisions for the Governor to adjourn both houses when there is a disagreement as to adjournment for a time not to exceed ten days. We had a lot of discussion about the exact language ',' .J in order to accomplish that. (c) provides that -SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me explain that to them. AI, what happened there, you and Wayne and Jack will be interested in this, we felt like, and you have felt like in past years, th~ Senate has, that if. the Governor just wouldn't pass on a bill, you know, we didn't have any chance in the second year of our PAGE term to override his veto. We felt like -- I mean -- this L is just on adjournment? MR. CLARKE: This is on adjournment here. SPEAKER MURPHY: We felt like, the Senate and I felt like the Governor ought to have a way to adjourn us. He ought to have a way to adjourn us if we were in disagreement, I and this is the simplest way to do it. If we send you a i: resolution to adjourn and you don't adopt it within the next day, I believe it is, I drew the language, but I can't remembe~ : (1 what it was -- if you didn't amend it and adopt it by the next: .) ., day, if it wasn't adopted by the end of that next legislative '" day, the Governor could adjourn us for ten days. I felt like i I we ought to have that protection when both of us get bullheade4 sometimes and ain't thinking straight or right, I felt like we ought to have that protection. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The limitation, Mr. Speaker, would be the ten days. Now there's some question about whether the ! ..~' Governor has a right to adjourn if you can't agree on adjournment and we get down to the twelfth hour, but in the event I did adjourn you, I mean, I can just adjourn you. "I SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: What this does is it limits it clarifies first that the Governor can adjourn. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It says that either house can send J'AGE 180 such a SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir, either house. 3 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. But it's limited to ten days though. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Where is that? MR. HARRIS: After the thirtieth legislative day. 7 SPEAKER MURPHY: On line 23, IIIn the event either house, after the thirtieth day of any session .. 11 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: IIIn the event either house,' after !O the thirtieth day of any session, adopts a resolution to l! '. adjourn for a specified period of time and such resolution and any amendments thereto are not adopted by both houses by the end of the legislative day on which adjournemtnwas called for in such resolution, the Governor may adjourn both houses for a period of time not to exceed ten days." c,.,' !. ('. ,'r SENATOR HOLLOWAY: length of time? The time is what, after what SPEAKER MURPHY: Thirty days. MR. HARRIS: Thirty legislative days, talking about 20 the last ten days of the session. , SPEAKER MURPHY: I felt like we needed that protecti~n when all of us get mad and upset. MR. CLARKE: The importance of this insofar as the people are concerned is it can avoid the necessity for special sessions. .' -_ I .._~.---------~-_.~._'------'-~ PAGE 181 SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right. I think frankly it would give the Governor a right that a lot of folks thought he didn't have. I thought he had it myself. 't SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I thought he and eigher house could adjourn any time. 'l GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well that's what I think too, but this clarifies it. SPEAKER MURPHY: I thought he could too, but this just makes sure it's that way. "l .: ......- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: But it limits it to ten days SPEAKER MURPHY: It let's y'a1l stay in session if we're impeaching somebody. r '!L'_l'~"" ..I) , REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: How about moving on. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to adoption " of (b)? -' I, (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. MR. CLARKE: (c) simply provides that if the, Senate is involved in an impeachment trial, the House can adjourn and \(' ...:.'..) the Senate can go forward with its business. ,, ~, I Do you want to take these up as we go along, Governor, or just -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to (c)? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It says they shall adjourn, so it i won't count as a legislative day. PAGE 182 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If there's no objection, it's adopted. Go ahead. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph lIon the next page, the present Constitution prescribes the exact oath. This simply :; says that the oath will be as provided by law. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraph II? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted, III. " MR. CLARKE: The quorum provision here provides for :0 a majority of the members to which each house is entitled J 1 ~; rather than a majority of the members. I think the concern ,. o. 'J.: J) v was what happens if you've got a vacancy. And this, as I understand it, would be a majority of the full membership 14 ~ rather than the ones who are actually sitting. ~J ~: ;;, It. ~ a z: .<;:-; ,~) SPEAKER MURPHY: That was our intent. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? (No response.) .., ~, GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph I~. IlJ MR. CLARKE: Paragraph IV is not now in the present 'I) I Constitution but just simply says that each house shall determihe !I its rules of procedure. That's not in the Constitution 1 ' presently. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? Any discussion on it? (NO response.) -~---------- - _ .. _ - - - - - - - - - - - - _ .... _ ..------! PAGE 183 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any Obj~~t-i-O~;__-:------------l (No response.) i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, IV is adopted. Open meetings. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph V is one that was put in at the full meeting of the committee and it does provide for open meetings of .all committees and sessions of the General Assembly, except where they are dealing with property trans- I! actions or appointments or removal from public office, they can have a statute which would provide otherwise. This is a new section that is not in the present Constitution. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph V, is there any objectio*? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: How about personnel discussions? MR. CLARKE: Yes, sir, personnel considerations, it says "shall be open to the public, except when the General ,L.. Assembly provides otherwise with regard to property trans- actions or appointments to or removal from public office." SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That doesn't answer my question. MR. CLARKE: The appointment to or removal from public office was intended to mean personnel matters. MR. BOLTON: I'm just suggesting something here, if you're going to put that in the Constitution, we had a case why don't you make it a self-executing provision in the Constitution where you won't have to go pass a law after you adopt this. PACE 184 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think the intention of the Articl~ I I Committee was that you wanted to write into the Constitution I open meetings for the General Assembly. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I understand that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And then what the Attorney () General is saying now is if you're going to do that, why don't i you just take the statute that now has these and make this self-executing without having to come back and pass another II statute in the legislature. MR. BOLTON: You could have a block I take it. This - is a radical departure from practices of the General Assembly when I was over there. -.... _------ 14 MR. HARRIS: I bet. MR. BOLTON: And I think if you're going to adopt lr, ~ this, you would want to put it in there where one House could " ~ actually thwart the meaning of this amendment, as I see it -- c. ,~~ in other words, I think you ought to put it in the Constitutio~ the right to have a closed meeting when you're considering 19 personnel matters, the right to have a closed meeting when you're considering property. :') SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I agree with that. ") MR. BOLTON: If you're going to say -- if y'all " , authorize us to go buy property at $10,000 and you announce it ' to the world, that's what we're going to have to pay. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think thatts right. SPEAKER MURPHY: PAGE 185 --- --~..._.- ---_._------------, I really don't see any sense in , , ... this being in the Constitution myself, we've got a statute on the books now. I see no reason at all for this to be in here. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: How would this be, Arthur, to make it self-executing as Charlie has it, "except when the General Assembly is considering transactions or appointments to or removal from public -- property transactions or appointments to or removal from public office." That would be self- executing. SPEAKER MURPHY: Then we're in direct conflict with the paragraph right before where we determine our own rules ; of procedure. Two paragraphs in direct conflict. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: liThe sessions of the General Assembly, all committee meetings, and all hearings shall be open to the public, except when the General Assembly " SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I make a motion? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, go ahead. SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we strike Paragraph V in its entirety. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: And not have open meetings in the Constitution? SPEAKER MURPHY: That's right, we've got a statute on it. MR. BOLTON: You've taken lottery out of the Constitution. PAGE 186 SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the way it come out of our subcommittee. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I have no objection, I mean, 4 you've got a statute. Is there a second? MR. BOLTON: I'll second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. Is there discussion on it? (No response.) 1U GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. J4 ,. :;; 1<0' .! 5 ~I '",;Yo '::'l l (,' ~~ c, 1. ~ (Nays. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, all in favor raise your hands. (Votes were cast.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Six. All opposed. It) I' (Votes were cast.) 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Six to two. All right, it's "L l deleted, six-two. Vacancies. MR. CLARKE: Simply provides that when vacancies occur they're to be filled as provided by this Constitution ori: by law. And I don't believe Mel, you can correct me if Il mi wrong, there's no specific yes, sir, Governor? PAGE 187 ~~--~ ------~--~--~1 I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adopting Paragraph VI? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph VII. MR. CLARKE: All right, Paragraph VII simply provides that there will be no change in the compensation or allowances prior to the end of the term. I believe that's about the same as it is presently. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's the same as the present , language. Is there any objection to adopting Paragraph VII? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. MR. CLARKE: I believe VIII and IX are also the same as the present Constitution. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to adopting Paragraphs VIII and~? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You have a slight change in X, go ahead with X. The Chair hears none and VIII and IX are adopted. X. MR. CLARKE: In X, the main change is to extend the privilege to committee meetings in either house as well as on the floor of the hosue. -_._-----_ _ ..... --- i'Aca~ 188 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Any discussion? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, is there any objection? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph X is adopted. Paragraph XI. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph XI is substantially the same. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to adopting XI? (No response.) ,1 " GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Section V. l; z 11 ,,' o .'-. MR. CLARKE: Section V, Paragraph I, the only \., ~,~ "\~,;:\at.1, 'i<(~,. ~,)--'").,)>(,/~~'2~'" ~ change I can think of is the fact that the present Constitution ! says that the journal shall be the sole record and this says "sole official record ll , so it wouldn't be unlawful or un- 1') " constitutional to keep some other record. il: ,~ he ,7. , Q 7. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there objection to 1'; Paragraph I? SPEAKER MURPHY: Can I ask these two Judges a question? --"~-' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. SPEAKER MURPHY: Is there anything else we need to .... : put in here to help you people in the courts when y'all are trying to determine what the intent of the General Assembly ist JUSTICE NICHOLS: No, I don't think of anything you can put in there because if the language is unambiguous, I PAGE 189 don't know where you -- it's according to what language you 2 use, if it's ambiguous or it's not ambiguous. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's all I wanted to know, Judge. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to the adoption of Paragraph I? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph II. 'f ! MR. CLARKE: Paragraph II, the only change is that ! D the present provision says that the Senate may propose Ij .;,;':' 7.... "(; , amendments to revenue bills and we thought that was unnecessart, ,j .,. "- it being obvious that they could anyway ";. \ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Yeah. All right, any objection to: Paragraph II? r (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph III. MR. CLARKE: Paragraphs III and IV remain unchanged. , There may, however, be a necessity for some change corning from the Code Revision Committee when they deal with the provisions of the Code. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraphs III and IV? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, they're adopted. Paragrap~ PAGE 190 V. MR. CLARKE: V I believe is the same, as is VI. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: V and VI we'll consider, is there 1 any objection to adoption of V and Vi? SPEAKER MURPHY: We made V more generous, Harold. i VI, I mean, we made VI more generous. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's VI that you've got the change in. MR. CLARKE: You're right. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to explain that change ~ in VI. Wetll reconsider on VI. {I MR. CLARKE: The roll call vote when ordered by ~ the presiding officer or one-fifth of the members present or : ,; ,r, a lesser number if provided by the rules of either house. So <,.: ! '. " either house could set rules calling for a lesser requirement , :' II ~ () .,') -, on a roll call vote ,c, ;';:('; SPEAKER MURPHY: That's correct. , '~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to Paragraph VI? !9 (No response.) :1 : GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, itts adopted. Paragraph ., l VII. .. ) MR. CLARKE: VII has what I take to be a right ) important change in that you would not under this have the -+ requirement for the reading of a bill in its entirety on the .. ~ third day. However if it were ordered by the presiding officer PAGE 191 or voted by a majority of the members, it could be required. E', - GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The Clerk won't just read every 3 fifth line at eleven o'clock at night. .~ MR. CLARKE: Just read the caption as he does on the .. first two days (, , SPEAKER MURPHY: Or a presiding officer can order I it read in its entirety any time or a majority of the members can order it read at any time. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection lU to Paragraph VII? , 7. !I ,;l' (No response.) 1 ';,i ,~ I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. VIII. MR. CLARKE: VIII is an attempt to do away with some of the fixing in dealing with local legislation and provices by law for a procedure to consider local legislation provided that they must be read at least once and you can't consider them until the third day following the introduction and every bill must be voted on. Some way it was thought there could be a shortening of the procedure perhaps by not reading the caption on the first two days but having the passage of those days. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. MR. CLARKE: At the present time, as to Paragraph IX FACE 192 there is a specific constitutional provision concerning notice i of intention being published. This simply says it will be as provided by law. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Question. I am assuming that staff is going to develop these necessary statutes that we're r-. going to have to that we're eliminating in the Constitution. MR. HILL: We have not operated on the assumption that we will have. these to go this time. We have the effective I date of July of '81, so that we can do the statutory work iU next session. iI SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Oh, this -- o MR. HILL: This is such an incredible amount of changes in the statutes, we -- 14 MR. HARRIS: There's no feasible way to get it done 1) ~ by this legislative session, so we put off the effective date '"::J ": C 'n .r "1. until July 1, of '81 which would give the 1981 legislative session the chance to pass the laws. MR. HILL: In a lot of these cases they are covered by statute already. I(J SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well you'd have to have destruct devices and all that sort of thing too if this didn't pass. MR. HARRIS: That's right. MR. HILL: I wanted to point out one change in here that -- now this is in a statute currently, this very language is in a statute currently, we know that. But the second 193 sentence of this provision is the one that says that no office to which a person is elected shall be abolished nor the term of the office shortened during the term for which that person is elected unless there's a referendum on the question. Now that's in the Constitution now, it has been omitted in this draft and it is in the law, but the law could be changed. So I don't know if you would like that to go back in. That's something I thought I should specifically point out. That is in the current provision on advertisement of notice of intention to introduce local legislation. SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't want it in the Constitution. I. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I don't think it ought to be in the Constitution. It's in the law. SPEAKER MURPHY: That's the reason we left it out, we didn't think it ought to be either. 1'1R. HILL: Well it is in the law now, so it; s covered. SPEAKER MURPHY: I don't think it ought to be in the Constitution, Mel. It's late in the day. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask you on the advertise- ment -- REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: What time does that ballgame start? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let's go ahead. Point out the significant things. \le're on Paragraph IX. Was there any 194 objection to Paragraph IX? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. All right, now point out MR. CLARKE: There is no change in X. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, any objection to adopting Paragraph X? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. XI. MR. CLARKE: XI provides the same thing, I think, if anything requires a two-thirds vote doesn't mean that it's a waiver of the Governor's signature. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. XII. MR. CLARKE: Now getting into the matter of vetoes and the question of overriding vetoes and I really thing -this of course is a very involved thing, but I believe that the one significant factor in the whole thing is that there is a provision that if the Governor does not call for a bill the General Assembly can, by a vote of the majority of each house, send the bill down to him and he would have three days within which to veto it -- he'd have six days in which to veto it I believe and then three days to send an amendment back. At the present time the law is unclear as to whether or not the' i .\CE 195 General Assembly can send the bill down or whether the Governo~ has to call for it. MR. HARRIS: Two-thirds, though, not a majority. MR. CLARKE: Two-thirds, excuse me. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me say this, the committee worked long and hard, the Articles Committee, on this thing and talked with me because of the dilution of executiv~ authority on that. There's a question now about sending down a bill and about the Governor vetoing it and we had a constitutional amendment that went to the people this last time about overriding the Governor's veto in a term and it lost handily. We had a lot of other things lost in that too. But what I was getting at is they asked in looking at the vetoes to consider a compromise on something and that is that on that, that they send the bills down, the Governor has six days in which to veto it, the other was on local constitutional amendments. The proposal that on local constitutional amendments that the Governor have the right to veto local constitutional amendments if -- well he can veto one. Presently if you have a local constitutional amendment that really plays havoc as far as general laws are concerned in the state, which some are passed for, there's no way to correct it once the local delegation has passed it as local legislation. I said if you would give us the right to veto the local constitutional amendments then I'd go along with the PACE 196 six days there and having the right to do this. That's where this came from. I just wanted to explain that background to you. MR. CLARKE: It was felt by the committee that this could be done without disturbing the balances between the executive and the legislative branches with give and take in each direction. MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, I received a letter from the President of the Association of County Comnlissioners of Georgia SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I've got ten or fifteen more here if you want them. MR. HARRIS: I've got. a bunch, but this was from the President and I - _. as to the concerns and obj ections by the Association of County COmn1issioners to that change, and I told him that I would convey those to the Select Committee and the Association is opposed to the Governor having the right to veto local constitutional amendments. One other particular commissioner says that lilt 'r) seems to me somebody must have had a wild dream to conceive such an idea; however, I cease to be amazed at the things some people will do through desperation or simply to get recognition. II GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's not my proposal. Let me just say this. I'm hopeful that we will have constitutional revision, which we have worked in the past, that will do away PA{;E n" .~-- 197 with the necessity for having local constitutional amendments to override general statutes. This is being worked on and hopefully this won't ever come up. SPEAKER MURPHY: ' The reason being for giving the Governor the right to veto these local constitutional amendments is tax matters. They are absolutely destroying some of our tax legislation on a statewide level by local constitutional amendments that there ain't a heck of a lot we can do about it. \: l REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: And then too we are hopeful when we get into the home rule area, that there will be in some areas additional home rule granted to the local govern-- ment and we won't have to have this. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is what you should do, is do away with all these local constitutional amendments. P~PRESENTATIVE SNOW: We won't have to have them at all. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I just wanted to explain why I was, you know -- we tried to balance off two concepts . 'j MR. BOLTON: Local constitutional amendments are getting our law in a horrible situation. SPEAKER MURPHY: They really are. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: We got a lot of them getting into general law too. MR. BOLTON: Yeah, they do. Ii; !:!~': .I.) PAGE: 198 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Local constitutional amendments supersede the general law and that's what the problem is. MR. BOLTON: Sales tax MR. CLARKE: Governor, the committee's feeling, if I sensed it correctly, dealt with two areas; one is sometimes a local constitutional amendment might be local in the sense that it only applied in the local area but the impact of it spilled far out beyond that area, so in effect it dealt with people allover the state or over a large portion of it. Another thing, they felt there were times when a member of the General Assembly might introduce a resolution calling for a local amendments, then find that he did not want it and he has no way to stop it. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's a hot seat too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We have this come up with legislation, I mean, with all -- upon discovering, something can be done, but be that as it may, we'll go on and consider that's not in this, I just wanted to explain it. MR. CLARKE: It's not in (cl but really GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The first one is it just gives the legislature the right to send down a bill on two-thirds and the Governor has six days and then override his veto in the session. It's a major change. I'm just saying that was kind of a swap off as far as power. MR. CLARKE: The only two changes of substance in the r,.-- ,! veto and overriding section are those two. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Okay. Is there any objection to the adoption of that? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Are we adding the veto in it? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: This is just the one now -- this does not get into local but I wanted to explain -- SENATOR HOLLOWAY: When are we going to get that? SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve Paragraphs XIII and XIV. ,I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, XIII and XIV, the Speaker moved and we can get them both together, is that it? SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's what we just explained, the total deal. There's a second. Is there any further dis- cussion on it? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted, both Paragraphs XIII and XIV. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: Wait, were we adopting XIII 200 and XIV? SPEAKER MURPHY: Yes, sir. GOVE~~OR BUSBEE: Yes. I'll reconsider if you want. Did you have something on that? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: No, except I sure wish that there was a way that we could get this problem about local constitutional amendments without writing into the Constitution that the Governor can veto a local constitutional amendment. I think we're setting a mighty dangerous precedent there because I know that this Governor wouldn't do it, but -GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Veto a local constitutional amendment? LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I hadn't finished my sentence. I know that you wouldn't do something that -- using it in a political fashion but I'm not so sure that other Governors might not use it in a political fashion on down the road as some kind of reprisal against a representative or a local legislative group_ I just wish there were some way that we could -GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well what we're trying to get to is on the horne rule where -- you just tell them they can't pass these local constitutional amendments that override general law in say Upson County or Daugherty County, we're going to be different. But until we get to that point in time, I don't know of any other way to correct the situation. I'm not looking P.\GE 201 for -- but that's what everybody is looking at now is a local constitutional amendment that will take a tax base and erode it and override a general statute. SPEAKER MURPHY: Legalize paramutuel betting. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: It's the responsibility also of the respective houses that handle those constitutional -, amendments to look at the impact that it's going to have and meet it there before they ever put the monkey on your back. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'm not arguing about the responsibility. :t LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: I just think it's setting a very dangerous precedent. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well we'll reconsider well you want to consider the first one first then, I mean SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve XIII. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, there's a motion, is there objection? REPRESENTATIVE CONNELL: You withdrew the other one? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Now in XIV. SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we approve it. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: I second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. That's what the Lieutenant Governor is questioning. Is there any further discussion on that? (No response.) PAGE 202 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor, say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. (Nay. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, it passed. I just said is there objection on XIII and there was no objection so it's adopted. This one passed with one dissenting vote. All right, then you've got XV. MR. CLARICE: I believe you move now to -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We don't have XV. Section VI. MR. CLARKE: Section VI, Paragraph I is a broad grant of power and this is where I had hoped the committee ,t - C.f"'.', jI would go on record as not only favoring it but expressing an c'1" .., opinion that this is intended to be an almost absolute grant :r:: of authority to the General Assembly to act subject only to the limitations imposed by the Constitution. My reason for thinking that is it sure would diminish the possibility of I;" later amendments by doing so. If you have to get into a whole lot of specificity as to what your authority is, then 1 . there is a requirement from time to time for a lot of amendments. But really Paragraph I is the same thing that's in the present Constitution. SPEAKER MURPHY: Judge, is this where you want to take the militia out right here? MR. CLARKE: May I say something about it first? I I~ I've got a reason PAGE 203 JUSTICE NICHOLS: I don't care myself. The historical background I understood was the reason. MR. CLARKE: That is not the reason, Your Honor, I j think I can give you a couple of other reasons when we get to it in just a minute. I think you need to act first on Paragraph I and then we can GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph I is on the general powers under Section VI. Is there any objection to adoption? (No response.) , ji GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph I is adopted. MR. CLARKE: Then it was felt that certain powers had to be specified even though we really would prefer not to specify any of them. The first one has to do with the restrictions upon land use and that was an attempt we had to do that because the local government article gives that right of zoning to counties and municipalities. If you don't have this provision, the General Assembly can't act in that area. Would you like to take these one at the time? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Unless there's objection, you can go ahead and explain all of them. MR. CLARKE: The second one has to do with militia. The present Constitution has a rather long provision dealing with militia. This was reduced to the greatest extent that 204 we could. There are two reasons that I felt it needed to stay. I in. One is it does provide for a trial by courts-martial and the other is it provides for nonjudicial punishment. In the absence of a constitutional provision, I had serious doubts that the National Guard would be able to do that, and that was my thinking, but I could be wrong. Number three is really preserving the right of the Department of Transportation to participate in Highway Beautification Programs. There is a saving clause a little further down as well on that. Number four has to do -- there's a long provision in the present constitution dealing with what happens in the event of a national emergency. We would liked to have left that out, because it-is dealt with constitutionally, except -- or rather statutorily except that there is a provision here for the suspension of all constitutional or legislative rules during such emergency. So the General Assembly we felt needed the right to do that if we had an atomic attack or something of that sort. Then five deals with the particpation with county and nonprofit organizations for the purpose of encouraging and promoting tourism and this is an attempt to get around the gratuities provision of the Constitution which we'll talk about in a moment and also to state clearly that this is a public purpose. PAGE 205 (b) is simply a saving clause that deals mainly with those specific powers that are enumerated in the present j Constitution and most particularly that one that deals with the Highway Beautification legislation. So that takes care of Paragraph II of Section -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Paragraph II now, is there any discussion on Paragraph II? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to the adoption? (No response.) ,j GOVEID{OR BUSBEE: Is there any discussion on it? " If not, Paragraph II is adopted. - T. Paragraph m. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph III, there was some concern " that some General Assembly might attempt to cbridge its own ,; ::-1 ,"iJ ji) :, inherent powers and this is just to prohibit the General Assembly from making the rock too big to tote. ", GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the adoption of Paragraph III? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph IV. MR. CLARKE: I believe Paragraph IV is virtually the same as the present law. It just simply says that all laws shall have uniform operation throughout the state. I believe PACE 206 this was transferred from Article I. Is that right, Mel? MR. HILL: That's correct. MR. CLARKE: And no special law shall be enacted. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to Paragraph IV? MR. HILL: There's a major change in here about population bills. MR. CLARKE: Oh, yes, that was (a), I'm getting to (b). GOVERNOR BUSBEE: IV(a) is adopted. (b). .,--, MR. CLARICE: All right (b), there a major change with respect to population bills. No population bill could be enacted which would affect only one municipality or one county, except you can enact population bills that affect only those municipalities or counties above a certain population or below a certain population. The reason behind this is to try just to avoid population legislation as much as possible. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: It ought to be abolished totally. MR. BOLTON: You're leaving room here to provide for Fulton and to provide for the smallest county. MR. CLARKE: I think you may very well be correct. The one concern we had, Arthur, is this, that you need to be allowed to use population as a basis for some general legislation; 1',\(;1<; 207 for instance, on a salary bill for sheriff as an example, you use population categories for those things but not for specific MR. BOLTON: You could put population in there if five counties were affected. MR. CLARKE: So that was the committee's thinking on that particular area. MR. BOLTON: Since it's changed and they all -- MR. HILL: The reason too for this, more than and 'J less than provision is because in Article IX there's a i " provision under the grant of authority to cities and counties that the General Assembly may enact general laws on these subject areas but only -- they can use population only if ; i it1s above or below a certain population, and so that's the reason this was written this way, to pattern the provision in Article IX. The committee working on Article IX, when they look at that, if they change it then we're going to have to look at this again and maybe come back and amend it at that time. That's another reason for this. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. MR. CLARKE: This is one we worked on a long time and it may not be perfect but this was the best the committee - could do. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any -- there is no motion. 208 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: It's better than what we've got. I move we accept it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There's a motion that it be adopted. Is there a second? JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second it. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. Discussion? (No response.) i'l aye. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. (c). MR. CLARKE: (c) is, I believe, part of the present Constitution, "No special law relating to the rights or status of private persons shall be enacted." GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the adoption of (c)? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph V. MR. CLARKE: Paragraph V is one that deals with these old corporations which existed during the days when the General Assembly incorporated people. It says you can't do it anymore and if any of them were to forfeit their rights, that PACE 209 they couldn't come back and be forgiven for it. I think everybody knows what that's all about. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any questions on Paragraph V? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adoption? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. VI is gratuities. " MR. CLARKE: Paragraph VI was another one that took :,i up a lot of time and effort on the part of the conuni ttee and it was drafted in many different ways. The present ConstitutiQn, of course, prohibits gratuities and then gets into a long ", laundry list of exceptions to the prohibition. The conunittee : was concerned about the proliferation of amendments to the 1c, Constitution and looked for some means of avoiding that and ,,1~ ..", , I.' ~ at the same time protecting the public till from raids by some l 'I )' sort of pork barrel type operation. , i" So what was decided upon was that if -- gratuities are prohibited except -,- to any private person except that if they are passed by two-thirds majority, two-thirds of the members of each house, and signed by the Governor ""ithin 30 : ... days after it has been presented to him after each session. It would have to then be done in the same way at a succeeding regular session. The thought being that it would be exposed to the public eye for a full year, the press or whoever else l'ACE, 210 would have ample opportunity to review it and get at least as much attention as would a constitutional amendment proposed for this purpose. That was the committee's thinking. There may, again( be a better way to do it. We attempted to even try to define gratuity in such a way to be sure it was a public act for a public purpose. We failed in that effort and this was just the best that we could accomplish. MR. HARRIS: I think their thinking was that if the Phil Campbell Sweetheart Bill had had to pass the second time, it wouldn't have. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You don't call that a gratuity, MR. HARRIS: Well, it's not classified as a gratuity. SPEAKER MURPHY: The fallacy of this is though, Mr. Chairman, you may have some worthwhile something that you're trying to save, but if it's going to take two years to do it, there ain't no way you're going to be able to do it. " MR. CLARKE: Well under the present law though, it's my understanding, it has to be proposed as a constitutional amendment and wait till a general election and it might be more than that period. JUSTICE NICHOLS: Don't these things arise from the fact of sovereign immunity? PAGE 211 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: No, sir, you have something like ... this; you want to give old folks -- I shouldn't say old folks, but people over so many years of age scholarships or , reduced scholarships over at the University of Georgia or you want to do something for blind persons or you want to -() this type group and that has been held to be a gratuity -, ., I have a concern -- MR. BOLTON: The way this got in the Constitution was '} because of -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think a gratuities section is ..<'. : 1 most important. I have one question though right here. I don't know of any better way to address it than you have done, :. 7: :~: except I'm concerned the way you have it here that you could v. give this to a corporation, a gratuity to a corporation without 15 going through two sessions or to anything other than an individual. i'7 ,., MR. HILL: Private person was meant to encompass a corporation. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Well maybe so. MR. HILL: That was the thought. MR. TIDWELL: It seems to me if you say private ). person you just highlight the fact that it is not a corporation. MR. CLARKE: To my understanding, the various cases that deal with the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, they all said no person and it was held a long PAGE 212 time ago that person encompasses a corporation. It may be that you want to be more specific. MR. TIDWELL: When you say private person MR. CLARKE: You might say private person or corporation. MR. TIDWELL: What about governments, local governments? MR. CLARKE: Well I think the feeling was that you would not have a prohibition as far as local governments but that's up to the committee. MR. HARRIS: The old language was any person, corporation or association. That may be better to put that language in. MR. CLARKE: That may be better. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I like that old language. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I like the old language much better. SPEAKER MURPHY: Change the words "private persons" t) to "any person, corporation or association". 21 right. MR. HARRIS: Any person, corporation or association, GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to changing that to go back to the old Constitution as far as the definition of MR. BOLTON: If you want to adopt it, please do. PAGE 213 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That amendment is adopted. Now on the -- SPEAKER MURPHY: He put "person, corporation or ~ association"? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Person, corporation or association. LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: WeTe putting it back like '7 it was? MR. HARRIS: Just that language. ') GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That would include corporations and associations along with persons and require all of them iI " to have two successive legislatures. ," l, '..> All right, is there objection to Paragraph VI as ,~; amended. MR. BOLTON: I object to it. i ) .~, SPEAKER MURPHY: I move it. " , GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, there has been a ,.:J '1 motion made and there's an objection. Is there any further discussion? , I) (No response.) 20 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All those in favor of Paragraph VI as amended say aye. (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. '1 (Nays. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted with two dissents. All right, go ahead, Harold. PACE 214 MR. CLARKE: Paragraph VII deals with impeachment. It specifically says which officers are involved and deals with executive and judicial officers of the state. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Removes the legislature. MR. CLARKE: Removes the legislature and removes any doubt as to whether or not local officers are involved. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the adoption of Paragraph I? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph II. ,. MR. CLARKE: Paragraphs II and III contain no J substantial change. 1'i .>-, l:l Ii' ;, fXI z: T .~. ~: ":'1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, is there any objection to the adoption of Paragraphs II and III? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, they're adopted. All right, Section VIII. MR. CLARKE: Section VIII is a considerable reduction in words. The present Constitution has a long provision to regulate insurance business. We found that those same provisions are also statutory and so this was an .. j attempt just to say that the General Assembly has the right to do all this by statute without putting all of it in, in such detail. PAGE 215 REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: So move. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made, is there a <1 second? JUSTICE NICHOLS: I second it. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Is there a necessity for Paragraph II? MR. CLARKE: That was put in at the request of the ,) Comptroller General and that's the reason it's there. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, Paragraph I, is there !, '~'., objection? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, it's adopted. Paragraph II. SPEAKER MURPHY: You know, really there ain't no j', ':> sense in Paragraph II. There ain't no sense in it. :' .6 ~~, 1-,: ", SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Sure ain't MR. CLARKE: lim not going to argue that, Mr. Speaker. ](1 SPEAKER MURPHY: I move we delete Paragraph II. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: I second it. ,i GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded that Paragraph II be deleted. Is there any discussion? .:~3 (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say aye. PAGE 216 (Ayes. ) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Deleted. MR. CLARKE: Section IX is the appropriations section. A considerable amount of time was spent in making some editorial changes and other redrafting of that section, but later we determined that perhaps it would be best left as is since it had been thoroughly interpreted by the Attorney () General's Office and in many instances by the courts and since -- o ~, - " same? GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Aren't Paragraph I and II the MR. CLARKE: The whole thing is the same, word for h word. ',' GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Section IX, Appropriations, is " all the same? MR. CLARKE: The same. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to just treating tha~ ,I section as a whole? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there any objection to the adoption of Section IX in its entirety? MR. HILL: It has one addition. MR. CLARKE: Oh, excuse me, what is that? ['AGE 217 MR. HILL: Workmens' Compensation Trust Fund. MR. CLARKE: Oh, yeah, we picked that up out of Article MR. HILL: Insurance Regulation. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's just a shift though, it's (i not a change in the Constitution, it's just a shift. Any objectiDn? (No response.) GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, Section IX in its entirety is adopted. All right. MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, that's it. ;'\,. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I want to say we appreciate the 1t work and effort y'all put into it, Harold. MR. CLARKE: Thank you. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We had one question we postponed until Charlie could go check on it. If we can do that, we can -- MR. CLARKE: On the President Pro Tern, etc. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. Charlie? 21 MR. TIDWELL: If found the draft as it came out of the sUbcommittee. I thought that it had made some provision that was different from that contained, but it is not except for the provision that it says that the President Pro Tern will succeed to the Presidency when the President succeeds to PAGE 218 the executive power. I had to go back to -- Mr. Speaker and Ham, if he's still here, I think if I recall, and Harold, that you felt that this language was sufficient to give him the compensation the same as the Speaker Pro Tern, and the President Pro Tem would receive the compensation of the President. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It won't do that; Charlie. You can do it by statute. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Do what by statute. MR. HARRIS: You've got to do it by statute. Say I, that the President Pro Tem, if he succeeds to the Office of I, !'- President, shall receive the same emoluments. You know, it's simple. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You've got to pass it through the House. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: It's not prohibitive. I, SPEAKER MURPHY: Oh, come on, Senator. You know I, we'll pass it through the House. My Lord, don't judge us by your body. ! .J (Laughter. ) "~ , SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It has already been through there ':1 one time. Let me see that language that's in the present Constitution. We spent a good long while on this and finally got it passed through both houses and I don't think we should have to -- I don't want to eliminate anything in this that we've got to replace by statute. t GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You want to make a motion on what you're talking about? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Well, you see, you rewrote this '\ whole thing. I make a motion that we adopt Paragraph I of Section IV as it now stands. You're going to have to edit it into this. MR. HILL: The committee really felt when they looked at that paragraph that there was so much in there that could be handled by statute, and that was the reason they 1'.1 carne up with the shortened version ., ,l SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Oh, I agree. ,I GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That whole thing is -- he's made - ;1, :.,.:.:,.", . ...; \(":~.:.) a motion but that would pick up that whole thing in there, ,/ i, ,'. you know. SPEAKER MURPHY: What is he saying? J 6 .~ "<,',.1 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: '~ no second. There's been a motion there but .... MR. HILL: It says that in the event the President SPEAKER MURPHY: Let me see if I can't fix it for him, Governor. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, in the existing Constitution you have a provision that when a President Pro Tern becomes the President of the Senate as provided in this paragraph, such person shall receive the same compensation and allowances as the Speaker of the House of Representatives. PACI~ 220 SPEAKER MURPHY: I've got no problem with that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's in the existing Constitutio*. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: That's what I said. I want to keep it. This don't have it in there. SPEAKER MURPHY: "The President Pro Tern shall become President in case of the death, resignation or permanent disability of the President and shall receive the same compensation " SENATOR HOLLOWAY: The same thing should apply to the Speaker Pro Tern. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That is provided now because he , ~, 1- becomes Speaker, so that's taken care of. All right, now is there any objection to adding this language here that in the event the President Pro Tern becomes the President -- no, the General Assembly shall provide by law all right, "When a President Pro Tern becomes President of the Senate as provided in this paragraph, such person shall, receive the same comepnsation and allowances as the Speaker .j of the House of Representatives. The provisions of this .'I} paragraph shall become " SPEAKER MURPHY: You don't need that. I've got no objection to that. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Is there objection to adding that and letting the draft committee put it in? SPEAKER MURPHY: I've got no objection to it. 221 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If not, so amended. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: You understand why I want it in. '- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: It's adopted. SENATOR HOLLOWAY: It'd take two arms and a leg to get it in there a year from now. MR. CLARKE: One thing I neglected to mention and I feel I probably ought to mention, there are two paragraphs :' that we left out of the present Constitution that we thought were not necessary because of the inherent power of the General Assembly, one dealing with the right of eminent domain. It i I is also included in the Bill of Rights. And the other being police power. We thought the committee ought to know that. REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Well I think you've done a 14 ;') good job. SPEAKER MURPHY: I think we did an excellent job. (: REPRESENTATIVE SNOW: Did you work on this one? SPEAKER MURPHY: I sure did, hard. MR. BOLTON: Compared to your predecessors in that chair, you came out relatively unscathed. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I'll tell you what I'd like to do. We've gone over this and I appreciate everybody staying so late but I kind of feel like what we need to do is let this be drafted and let's meet again to make sure that we give final approval to it. Is that all right? On Articles X and II, the ones that were adopted J) ,':, (' 'i\ ~ ...... '- I.' 222 before, can we bring that up at our next meeting? SENATOR HOLLOWAY: Sure, that's fine. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: There's not any major change. MR. BOLTON: Let's decide when we're going to meet, Governor. JUSTICE NICHOLS: Let me ask you something, you wanted me -- I've got some notations made on this eminent :, domain business. I don't think it would be proper for me to suggest anything but I'll be glad to give the draft that I have with some red pencil marks -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: If you would, I'd appreciate it, Judge. 't ,~,) oJ Is there any preference for another meeting date? MR. TIDWELL: I don't think we can decide now because we don't know when they'll get it ready. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right, we'll be in touch with you. (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 6:20 p.m.) C E R T I F I CAT E 223 ~. ... -~ ~- _.~! .\ I, Peggy J. Warren, CVR-CM, CCR No. A-171, do hereby certify that the foregoing 222 pages of transcript represent a true and accurate record of the events which transpored at the time and place set out above. 1) \\ " J) INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on Dec. 17, 1979 SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 12-17-79 Proceedings. pp. 3- 9 PREAMBLE: " and of the family . . " added. pp. 9-11 ARTICLE I: BILL OF RIGHTS SECTION I: RIGHTS OF PERSONS Paragraphs 'I: Life, liberty, and property, and II: Protection to person and property; equal protection. (Era features here). pp. 11-21, 39-41 Paragraph III: Freedom of conscience. p. 22 Paragraph IV: Religious opinions; freedom of religion. pp. 22-23 Paragraph V: Freedom of speech and the press guaranteed. pp. 23-24 Paragraph VI: Libel. pp. 21-22, 24-25 Paragraph VII: Citizens, protection of. p. 25 Paragraph VIII: Arms, right to keep and bear. p. 25 Paragraph IX: Right to assemble and petition. pp. 25-26 Paragraph X: Bill of attainder; ex post facto laws; and retroactive laws. p. 26 Paragraph XII: Right to the courts. pp. 26-27 Paragraph XIII: Searches; sizures; and warrants. p. 27 Paragraph XIV: Benefit of counsel; accusation; list of witnesses; compulsory process. p. 28 Paragraph XV: Habeas corpus. pp. 28-30 Paragraph XVI: Self-incrimination. pp. 30-31 Paragraph XVIII: Jeopardy of life or liberty more than once forbidden. p. 31 Paragraph XIX: Treason. pp. 31-32 Paragraph XX: Conviction, effect of. p. 32 Paragraph XXI: Banishment and whipping as punishment for crime. p. 32 Paragraph XXII: Involuntary servitude. pp. 32-33 Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 2 Paragraph XXIII: Imprisonment for debt. p. 33 Paragraph XXIV: Costs. p. 33 Paragraph XXV: Status of the citizen. p. 33 Paragraph XXVI: Exemptions from levy and sale. pp. 33-37 Paragraph XXVII: Spouse's separate property. pp. 37-38 Paragraph XXVIII: Enumeration of rights not denial of others. p. 38 SECTION II: ORIGIN AND STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT Paragraph I: Origin and foundation of government. p. 38 Paragraph II: Object of government. pp. 38-39 Paragraph III: Separation of legislative, judicial, and executive powers. p. 41 Paragraph IV: Contempts. pp. 41-42 Paragraph V: What acts void. p. 42 Paragraph VI: Superiority of civil authority. pp. 42-46 Paragraph VII: Separation of church and state. pp. 46-63 Paragraph VIII: Lotteries. pp. 64-66 NOTE: All of the 1976 Constitutional provisions for lobbying, fraud, and concealment of property dropped as recommended by Article committee. pp. 64-66 SECTION III: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraphs I: Eminent domain, and II: Private ways. pp. 66-76 Article II, Section II, Paragraph IV: Recall of public officials holding elective office - transferred from Article I, Section IV (1976 Constitution). pp. 76-77 Adoption of Article I, less Section III. pp. 77-78 Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 3 ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH SECTION I: LEGISLATIVE POWER Paragraph I: Power vested in General Assembly. pp. 153-154 SECTION II: COMPOSITION OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY Paragraph I: Senate and House of Representatives. pp. 154-157 Paragraph II: Apportionment of General Assembly. p. 157 Paragraph III: Qualifications of memb~rs of General Assembly. pp. 157-166 Paragraph IV: Disqualifications. pp. 160, 166-169 Paragraph V: Election and term of members. p. 169 SECTION III: OFFICERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY Paragraph I: President and President Pro Tempore of the Senate. pp. 169-175, 217-221 Paragr~ph II: Speaker and Speaker Pro Tempore of the House of Representatives. pp. 175-177 SECTION IV: ORGANIZATION AND PROCEDURE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY Paragraph I: Meeting, time limit, and adjournment. pp. 178-182 Paragraph II: Oath of members. p. 182 Paragraph III: Quorum. p. 182 Paragraph IV: Rules of procedure; employees; interim committees. pp. 182-183 Paragraph V: Vacancies. pp. 186-187 Paragraph VI: Salaries. p. 187 Paragraph VII: Election and returns; disorderly conduct. p. 187 Paragraph VIII: Contempts, how punished. p. 187 Paragraph IX: Privilege of members. pp. 187-188 Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 4 Paragraph X: Election by either house. p. 188 Paragraph XI: Open meetings. pp. 183-186 SECTION V: ENACTMENT OF LAWS Paragraph I: Journals and laws. pp. 188-189 Paragraph II: Bills for revenue. p. 189 Paragraph III: One subject matter expressed. p. 189 Paragraph IV: Statutes and sections of code, how amended. p. 189 Paragraph V: Majority of members to pass bill. p. 190 Paragraph VI: When roll-call vote taken. p. 190 Paragraph VII: Reading of general bills. pp. 190-191 Paragraph VIII: Procedure for considering local legislation. p. 191 Paragraph IX: Advertisement of notice to introduce local legislation. pp. 191-194 Paragraph X: Acts signed. p. 194 Paragraph XI: Signature of Governor. p. 194 Paragraph XII: Rejected bills. p. 199 Paragraph XIII: Approval, veto, and override of veto of bills and resolutions. pp. 194-201 Paragraph XIV: Jointly sponsored bills and resolutions. p. 199 SECTION VI: EXERCISE OF POWERS Paragraph I: General Powers. pp. 202-203 Paragraph II: Specific powers. pp. 203-205 Paragraph III: Powers not to be abridged. p. 205 Paragraph IV: Limitations on special legislation. pp. 205-208 Paragraph V: Specific limitations. pp. 208-209 Paragraph VI: Gratuities. pp. 209-213 Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 5 SECTION VII: IMPEACHMENTS Paragraph I: Power to impeach. p. 214 Paragraph II: Trial of impeachments. p. 214 Paragraph III: Judgements tn impeachment. p. 214 SECTION VIII: INSURANCE REGULATION Paragraph I: Regulation of insurance. pp. 214-215 Paragraph II: Issuance of licenses. pp. 215-216 SECTION IX: APPROPRIATIONS Paragraphs I-VII: Adoption of. pp. 216-217 ARTICLE IV: CONSTITUTIONAL BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS SECTION I: PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Paragraph I: Public Service Commission. pp. 124-126 SECTION II: STATE BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES Paragraph I: State Board of Pardons and Paroles. pp. 126-128 Paragraph lICe): Powers and authority. pp. 80, 128-135, 146-151 SECTION III: STATE PERSONNEL BOARD Paragraph I: State Personnel Board. pp. 135-136 Paragraph II: Veterans preference. pp. 136-137 SECTION IV: STATE TRANSPORTATION BOARD Paragraph I: State Transportation Board; commissioner. pp. 137-143 Select Committee Meeting 12-17-79 Page 6 SECTION V: VETERANS SERVICE BOARD Paragraph I: Veterans Service Board; commissioner. pp. 143-145 SECTION VI: BOARD OF NATURAL RESOURCES Paragraph I: Board of Natural Resources. pp. 145-146 ARTICLE V: EXECUTIVE BRANCH SECTION I: ELECTION OF GOVERNOR AND LT. GOVERNOR Paragraph I: Governor; term of office; compensation and allowances. pp. 80, 106-107 Paragraph II: Election for Governor. p. 107 Paragraph III: Lieutenant Governor. pp. 80-106 Paragraph IV: Qualifications of Governor and Lieutenant Governor. p. 106 SECTION II: DUTIES AND POWERS OF GOVERNOR Paragraph IV: Veto power. p. 123 SECTION III: OTHER ELECTED EXECUTIVE OFFICERS Paragraph I: Other executive officers, how elected. pp. 107-120 SECTION IV: DISABILITY OF EXECUTIVE OFFICERS Paragraph I: "Elected constitutional executive officer", how defined. pp. 81, 118-120 Paragraph II: Procedure for determining disability. pp. 118-120 Paragraph III: Effect of determination of disability. p. 81 ARTICLE VI: JUDICIAL BRANCH SECTION VIII: DISTRICT ATTORNEYS. pp. 121-123 SELECT COI*lITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION STATE OF GEORGIA The transcript of the proceedings heard before 'rEB HONORABLE GEORGE BUSBEE, Committee Chairman, cOnllnencing at approximately 9:00 o'clock a.m., \'leanesday, January 9, 1980, in Roor.! 133, State Capitol Building, Atlanta, Georgia. -000- I _ _ ._~ .. _ . .J i BRANDENBUH.G & HASTY SClEl\:IIHC REPORTING 3715 COLUNL>\L TRAIL, DOUGLASVILLE, CI~ORCIAWU5 942-04X2 ()EPOSITIUN~) . i\RI\ITRt\ lIONS - CONVI:NTIOI\JS - C:ONFERENC\:" 2 GOVEHNOR GEORGE BUSBEE, Chairman LT. GOVIm-NOE :6ELL HILLER SPLA1~En. OF 'I'llE HOUSE THOHAS R. HURPHY CHIEF ,JUSTICE H.E. NICHOLS ClI IEF JUDGE DRASvlELL D. DEEN, JR. A'r'rORNEY GENER2\L ARTHUR K. DOLTON JUDGE HARCUS B. CALHOUN SENATOR l\L llOLLOVIAY IlliPRESEtJ'l'ATIVE JACK CONNELL SEi~A'I'OR HOWARD 'I'. OVERBY n.EPRESEN'rATIVE HAYUE SNOI'1, JR. Also Participating: HR. HOBIN ilAHRIS NE. HL:LVIlJ HILL MR. iIl\I\VL:Y FINDLEY HE. CHARLES Tlm'H:;LL In the interest of time I think the others are going to join us, and I call the meeting to order. All right. Mr. Hill, will you call the roll? MR. HILL: Gov. Busbee? GOV. BUSBEE: Here. NH. HILL: Mr. Miller? HR. HILLER: Here. HR. HILL: Hr. Murphy? (No response) MR. HILL: Hr. Nichols'? JUDGE NICHOLS: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Deen? JUDGE DEEN: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Bolton? MR. DOLTON: Here. HR. HILL: Hr. Calhoun? JUDGE CALHOUN: Here. MR. HILL: Hr. Holloway? SEN. HOLLOHAY: Here. MR. HILL: Mr. Connell? REP. CONNELL: Here. HE. HILL: Sen. Overby? (No response) !'JR. HILL: Mr. Snow? 4 REP. SNOH; Here. !.1H. III LL: ~1r. Overby and r1r. Murphy are not here. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. You were mailed copies of the previous meeting. I entertain a motion on it. SEN. HOLLQ{.-vAY: So moved. GOV. BUSBEE: A motion is made that the minutes of the last meeting be approved. Is there a second? REP. SNOW: Second. GOV. BUSBBE: Any discussion? If not, all those in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposeu? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: They're adopted. On the agenda today, if you recall, we finished Articles I, III, IV, V at the l~st meeting. We still have remaining for initial consideration Articles II and X. If we could go on and perfect those two Articles, then I'll entertain a motion for any reconsiderations we have on the others before continuing with the agenda. So I thought I would do that right after we got through with the , eminent domain that we had reserved until this meeting. So with that, we'll take up Article II, and I call on Attorney General Bolton. MR. BOLTON: I haven't seen the agenda, Governor. HH.. HARRIS: It's in the back of that bac}:;: pocket 5 there. MR. BOLTON: We made no changes in Article II, if tha t' s \'1ha t you're asking. COV. BUSBEE: Yes. I think what we have is Article II MR. BOLTON: But the staff has made some changes in Article II, and I think it would be proper for Jim Pratt, who has been handling this in my office and is in trial court this morning, I think he could tell you the changes that they have made in Article II. GOV. BUSBEE: I just calIon Mr. Hill. Can't you tell us the changes made? MR. HILL: Very minor changes were made. Over in Article V there was a provision speaking to the run-off election and the fact that the run-off should be a continuation of the general election and only the persons who are entitled to vote in the general election should be entitled to vote in the run-off, and that provision from Article V was moved to Article II, and it now appears here, and secondly, the provision on recall of local officials which is now in Article I has been moved to Article II. It's really just a shifting of the provisions from Article V into Article II and from Article I into Article II. It's exactly the same language that appears now in those other Articles. So that was the only thing, j~st a technical movement of the provisions. 6 GOV. BUSBEE: Is there any further discussion on that? I"ve had all approved II before. ~ll{. BOLTON: I think I had raised one question. Just give me a moment. GOV. rlUSBEE: All right. MR. BOLTON: One of the members of my staff raised a question about there's no provision in the Constitution for primary elections. Am I right, Charlie? MR. TIDWELL: That's right. MR. BOLTON: There's no provisions for run-offs as I've discovered to my sorrow one time years ago. Anyway, he brought up -- you might want to look. He brought up the question of when you put run-off elections here and you've got run-offs in primaries, did you want to put anything about that in this provision of the Constitution? MR. HILL: At present, as you say, it's not mentioned, so it's just a policy question I guess as to whether you would like to include that. It would be a simple addition to state that a run-off election in any election shall be a continuation of that election and only the people entitled to vote' shall be. MR. BOLTON: I'd rather, since I don't know exactly whereof I'm speaking at this time, leave it like it is until such time as we're going to present this to the General Assembly, and then I can go back and see, because I don't want to suggest a change until until I find out the ramifications. 7 GOV. BUSBEE: Well,. I would hate to have it mandatory in the Constitution for that, you know, because we have some non-partisan elections. MR. BOLTON: I just brought it up. We might be thinking about it. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. So this is merely transferred from another section, and this is Article II as written previously? HR. HILL: Yes. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there any -- I need a motion first that we adopt the entire Article without going through it, and then after that we'll have discussion. Is there any motion? JUDGE NICHOLS: So moved. REP. SNOW: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is Article II in its entirety be adopted, and the motion has been seconded. NoW, for discussion. Is there any discussion on this? If not, all those in favor say lI aye ." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: Article II is adopted as is. The next will be Article X. Sen. Holloway, this is in the same category as Article II I believe, but are there any staff 8 changes on this? SEN. HOLLOWAY: Yes, there are, and I'm going to ask Harvey Findley, if you will, to run through. They are very minor changes, Mr. Chairman. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. then for a minute. Just turn to Article X MR. FINDLEY: The changes in Article X are all minor. GOV. BUSBEE: Can you find Article X? It's the last one in your package, but it doesn't have a heading up there like the other Articles. MR. FINDLEY: Most of them mayor may not be considered substantive. They are of minor substantive nature, if they are substantive, but I will mention each one. If you remember from the last submission of Article X, one of the objections of the Article X Conmittee was to make unnecessary and repeal all local constitutional amendments dealing with retirement. Since Article X did not get ratified in its original submission in 1978, two additional local constitutional amendments were ratified, one affecting Fulton County Teachers' Retirement System and another affecting the Retirement System of the City of Macon. So one of the changes is to add those two constitutional amendments ratified in 1978 to the repeal section of this proposal to specifically repeal those two amendments so that there will be no local constitu- tional amendments in existence on the subject of retirement. 9 In doing that, it was necessary to add a sentence in what appears as Section 4 of the proposal, and that language in Section 4 deals with the local retirement sys~ems of boards of education, in other words, local teacher retirement systems, and there was a sentence added to ratify previous increases in retirement benefits that had been granted under what amounts to the Fulton County Teachers' Retirement System, because the local constitutional amendment did that. In there, if you repeal that amendment, there would be a serious question as to the legality of the previous increases in retirement benefits that had been offered. GOV. BUSBEE: Is that line 18, Harvey? MR. FINDLEY: Yes, sir. "Any heretofre existing local Act of the General Assembly which increased the benefits being paid to beneficiaries under any such local retirement system supported in whole or in part by employer contributions paid from county funds is hereby ratified and confirmed." They had passed in 1972 a local Act granting a $15 across the board increase to each beneficiary under that retirement system. It wasn't until 1978 really that arguably they got the legal authority to do that, but that local amendment ratifiea and confirmed that. This document raised a question on that, so this sentence was added to do in fact what the local constitutional amendment did. That's all that change. amounts to. 10 'fhe language -- I worked with the school board lawyer, John Tye Ferguson, in coming up with that sentence. The other changes de,al with the educational student assistance program, which is really section 2 of the Article X itself. Section 1 of Article X deals with the retirement system. GOV. BUSBEE: Harvey, let me interrupt just a minute. Let the record show that we have ,Mr. Overby here and Speaker Murphy is here. Let me bring you up to date on the agenda. We have taken up Article II, which has just been nothing but an editorial change, but we transferred two sections, two sentences I believe. MR. HARRIS: Sections. GOV. BUSBEE: Sections. We are now on Article X, which is one that's already been approved, and these are some changes that have been necessary since we did this two years ago. So Harvey is explaining that. If you'll continue, we'll pick up at that point. MR. FINDLEY: These changes in Section 2 of the proposed Article X, dealing with scholarships and the educational assistance program, were made at the request of Dr. Don Payton, the Executive Director of the State Scholarship Commission, in anticipation of a federal law which is about to be passed that will authorize educational assistance programs for parents of students attending college. The 11 language originally that we had in here was all geared to student assistance. He felt, and I agree, that in order for us to participate in those federal programs when the federal law is passed that we \vould need the authority to provide student assistance, I mean educational assistance to the parents of students. So really the only change in the Section 2 is to rename it. Instead of Retirement Systems and Student Assistance, to rename it Retirement Systems and Educational Assistance, and in several places in the proposal we have simply added "and to parents of students ll in several places so that when this federal law is passed we will have the legal authority under the Constitution to participate in whatever federal program it is that sets up assistance to parents of students attending college. That's the effect of that change, is to simply add "and to parents of students ll in (a)l, (a)2, (b), and then paragraph 2 in three places, paragraph 3, and simply change IlStudent" to "Educational ll so the reference is to educational assistance. That's a substantive change, but it was in anticipation of a federal program. One other change that I forgot to make that I think is considered purely t~chnical, in the matter of home rule, the intention of the Committee in making this proposal in '78 was to grant very broad home rule with the reservation to the 12 General Assembly had the authority by general law to regulate the power, the retirement power given to counties and municipalities by the Constitution itself. In doing that, it was the intention and the proposal provided for by its context granting home rule even on population acts that create individual retirement systems, and some questions arose as to whether or not the meaning.was clear in doing that. I think it was by the context, but to make it abundantly clear that the grant of home rule does cover population acts that do create individual retirement systems, we added the meat of the home rule proposal as found on page 5 and quoted paragraph 16. You have to see the context of this to put in what is so-called amendment 19. We add the 16th paragraph to the so-called amendment 19, which appears in Article IX, and the only thing 'we did there was add a phrase which begins in line 25, "including such systems heretofore created by general laws of local application by population classification." The proposal as submitted in 1978 did that by the context, because down in the context there is a prohibition against the General Assembly passing laws on any of these mnen&nent 19 powers except general laws, and it specifically eliminates population acts. GOV. BUSBEE: That's all the changes now that you know of? MR. FINDLEY: Yes, sir. Oh, the list, as mentioned 13 initially, two additional amenc1ments, those ratified in 1978, are listed to the repeal section of the local constitutional amendment. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. We have not had a motion on this Article yet. I think before we have any further discussion, I'll entertain a motion for the adoption of Article X in its entirety. JUDGE DEEN: So moved. GOV. BUSBEE: All right, Judge Deen. Is there a second? SEN. OVERBY: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. All right. Is there any further discussion or question concerning Article X? If not, then all those in favor of the adoption of Article X as Hritten will say "aye." (l\yes) GOV. BUSBEE: And opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's unanimously adopted. That gets II and X out of the way. All right. Now, we had reserved the eminent domain in Article I, and we considered and adopted the remainder of Article I at that time and said we would work on that today. So that will be the next item for consideration. Where did Charlie go? He has a copy. Is Charlie Tidwell out there? Can you see? 14 MR. HENRY: Your Honor, he went this way. I think he's in this office righ here. GOV. BUSBEE: Will you see if he's out there? REP. SNOW: Governor, would it at this time be in order to reconsider our previous action on the preamble to that Article? GOV. BUSBEE: On what? REP. SNOW: Article I. GOV. 13USBEE: Well, what I'm going to do first is we're going to go to eminent domain, which is in Article I, and then we're going to, as I stated at the beginning of the meeting, be open for reconsideration of all Articles. \'Je would have covered everything at that point, and we'll discuss anything we might have there. If you'll look in your kit you have where it has Section III, General Provisions, it should be at the very front of your kit. MR. HARRIS: I think it's in the back in the last little section. GOV. BUSBEE: In the back. It just says, "Section III, General Provisions," and under that "Paragraph I, Eminent Domain." You might be wanting to read this just a minute until I can get Charlie back or somebody from Legislative Counsel's Office might help, Robin or the staff, but in any event"what I think we were talking about in th~ last 15 meeting -- I think I can tell you what the existing law is, and some of you familiar with eminent domain, look, but when Charlie Tidwell gets back, we'll verify this, but looking at your sheet that you have before you, if you will look down in (b) where it says, "When private property is taken or damaged by the State or the counties or municipalities of the State for public road or street purposes, or for public transportation purposes," I think the additional part of that, "or for any other pUblic purposes as determined by the General Assembly" would be something new. This section (b) is for quick taking and is limited now to transportation, and the additional language, "or for any other public purposes as determined by the General Assembly," would be the addi tional language an(l would be a change. Charlie, didn't you mark that, some of those? MR. TImVELL: Yes. Shall I pass it out? GOV. BUSBEE: Pass it out, and I was trying to let them mark their own sheets, but if you already have one. Charlie, did you have what I just stated concerning Paragraph (b) ? MR. TIDWELL: Yes, sir. GOV. BUSBEE: Is that correct that the way the law now reads for yuick taking is exactly as (b) is written except for the additional words "or for any other public purposes as determined Ly the General Assembly"? 16 MR. TIDWELL: That's right, Governor. If you will look at this, what's being passed around, what is underlined is new language. GOV. BUSBEE: If you would, Charlie, go ahead and explain all the changes from eminent domain as it is now written in the Constitution. MR. TIDWELL: While it might not be a verbatim restatement of what presently is in the Constitution, in my opinion it is SUbstantively the same, except for the indication of changes that you have. In other words, SUbsection (a~ has no substantive change. Subsection (b) does, the substantive change being that underlined language, "or any other pUblic purposes as determined by the General Assembly." That is the change being effected in subsection (b). In subsection (c), the present Constitution says, "The General Assembly may." The change being recommended is that "The General Assembly shall." That's the change. Then subsections (d) and (e) are entirely new langauge that is being inserted in the Constitution, and then in Paragraph II, the words "and adequate," "just and adequate compensation." That is, if you were to delete the underlined language, change "shall" to "may" and delete subparagraphs (d) and (e), you would leave the constitution as it presently exists insofar as eminent domain is concerned. Hel, I think we talked about this, and do you concur 17 that that's the changes? MR. HILL: Yes. That's exactly right. In the draft of this provision, which you received the first time, there was a provision saying that whenever public property, whenever private property is t~ken for public purposes, then just and adequate compensation should be paid in the time and the manner provided by law, and this is what the Con~ittee had arrived at after some discussion, and we met, Hichael Henry and I met with Marion Gordon of the Attorney General's office, and he was concerned that that original provision that the' ConlIni ttee was suggesting would violate due process, and so we went back and attempted to redraft it and attempted to keep with the present provision, the present due process requirements of what's necessary, but as I pointed out in my memo to you, this Committee has not yet addressed the policy implications of (d) and (e), which are totally new suggestions by that Committee, as well as in (c) to require prepayment against adequate compensation in all cases as opposed to just the quick taking measure that's in there now, but Charlie is correct. If all of these changes that he has indicated on this sheet are made, it will be exactly what we have now. MR. HARIUS: Were not made. MR. HILL: Were not made. MR. HARRIS: If those changes were not made. GOV. BUSBEE: Let me do this. Let me have someone 18 just move on the adoption of Section III, which is eminent domain, and then it \V'ill be ripe for discussion, and \ve can offer any amendments, but this is the way it is submitted. All right. Does anybouy move on the adoption of Section III? JUDGE CALHOUN: I so move. GOV. UUSBEE: All right. The motion is made. Is there a second? MR. MURPHY: Is that with (d) and (e) in now? GOV. BUSBEE: Yes. It is just so we can consider it then. This is a report from the SUbcommittee, and that has the relocation expenses, attorney's fees and also to extend quick taking. MR. MURPHY: I'll second the motion. GOV. UUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. All right. Now, it's open for discussion of amendments from that point. Who is first? JUDGE NICHOLS: There's nothing in here about attorney's fees? GOV. BUSBEE: Yes, sir. That will be under (d). We have three things, Judge, as I said that would be substantive changes. One would be (b). We now have quick taking that's limited just to transportation purposes as stated ih the Constitution. This would extend the quick taking for any other public purposes as determined by the General Assembly, and then the section (d) would be for the payment of 19 attorney's fees that you refer to, and (e) would be for the payment for relocation assistance to anybody whose property has been condemned. 'rhat would be the major ones. NR. HARRIS: Hell, it would authorize the General Assembly to -- GOV. BUSBEE: Correct. MR. HARRIS: to make that sort of provision, if it does not do it itself. GOV. BUSBEE: It makes it self-executing. That is correct. MR. HARRIS: Well, (d) is, but (e) is not. REP. HURPHY: That's my complaint about (d). I think (d) ought to be about the General Assembly ought to provide bylaw for just and adequate compensation to include reasonable expenses. I don't think we ought to mandate it in the' Constitution. I think it ought to be left up to the General Assembly to provide. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I agree with that. I SEN. CONNELL: You're saying the word "shall" should come out and be "may" in Paragraph (d)? HR. HARRIS: "Just and adequate compensation may include reasonable expenses incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation" or "the General Assembly may provide for a law that just and adequate compensation." 20 SEN. CONNELL: You want to add those words into it? REP. MURPHY: rrhat's \"hat I think ought to go into it. SEN. OVERBY: Review that, Hr. Speaker, what you have in mind now. REP. MURPHY: In Paragraph (d), instead of saying "Just and adequate compensation shall include reasonable expenses, including attorney's fees," it should say, "The General Assembly may by la\" provide that just and adequate compensation will include reasonable expenses." JUDGE CALHOUN: Mr. Speaker, don't 'you think the General Assembly already has that power? REP. MURPHY: I doubt it, Judge. I don't know. JUDGE CALHOUN: I think the courts imply that in their decisions. MR. HARRIS: They did one time, and they reversed it. 21 him to make profit out of it, but here is somebody's property that is being condemned that he doesn't want it condemned; he would like to keep his property, and now we're saying if he has to vacate his present ,location, I had this brought home to me, if I can just tell you one instance, gentlemen. When I was a Superior Court Judge, I have been for attorney's fees and costs of litigation ever since this happened to me, and this happened to a lady by the name of King, that ran a boarding house. She was a widow. She had a good income, and by necessity they had to condemn her property for a road. \1ell, they came up and they offered her about half of what the property was worth. They said, "NOW, you take this. You won't have to pay any attorney's fees. You get this money imn~diately. There won't be any court costs. So we suggest that you do this, take this and you're a lot .better ofL" Now, she took it. Then they took her property, and she had to go out then and bUy a piece of property, lost all of her boarders or people staying with her because she couldn't get in that locality again, and the tremendous expense, it actually put her in the alms house. NOW, that's \'1hat I'm saying, is that when you take somebody' s property and every case si ts on its own bottom, but if they ought to be paid, they ought to have the right to be paid in advance, and the Constitution of the State says so now. The Federal Constitution says first pay just and adequate compensation, first being paid. 1 2 ') <- Now, if you arrive at what that amount is, as they do in the Highway Act, you could still go in and ask for a hearing, if the amount assessed is not adequate. You can have a hearing on it, but under the Special Masters Act, you cannot. Whatever is paid in, then they can take that money down, but under the other Act, the title never passes, as the law stands now in Georgia, until the compensation has been paid. Now, what I'm saying is I don't see any objection. Maybe I'm wrong, but to say that "shall first be paid" and to legislate -- "shall," "shall include reasonable expenses incurred by the condemnee," whatever they are. If they are legitimate, they ought to be paid, oughtn't they, Torn? REP. MURPHY: Judge, I'm in total agreement with you on what you said, but let me give you an illustration, sir. JUDGE NICHOLS: All right. REP. MURPHY: Suppose the Highway Department comes " in and offers $30,000 for this piece of property, and they go see some lawyer, and he says, "I think it's worth more than that," but the jury only give you $20,000, and they've still got to pay the att9rney's fees, and it ain't right. It ought to be where the General Assembly could fix it where if they don't pay adequate compensat{on -- JUDGE NICHOLS: I agree with that. REP. MURPHY: -- then the Judge can charge the jury and put it aside. I'\(;!; 23 JUDGE NICHOLS: You explained i t to me. That's all right. I agree with that. REP. MURPHY: I've been involved in about as many of these things, and it's made me a good living. I don't deny that, but it ought to be to where if they don't pay you what it's worth, don't offer you what it's worth, then you're entitled to attorney's fees. If they offer you what it's worth, and the jury don't offer you more than that, then they ought not to get attorney's fees. It's that simple in my honest Opinion. MR. BOLTON: Gentlemen, I want you to know you're talking about a whale of a lot of money. We just had an experience this week. I think I sent a copy to the Lieutenant Governor and the Governor and the Speaker. The federal court in a case that's been going on down there where attorney fees are being asked -- and these attorney fees happen to amount to $753,000 for a case that's been going on for a long time. I mean it's a most unusual case. I'm in the middle. I mean I represent the Highway Department, and we're caught in the middle of this thing. If I was out practicing, maybe I would be for it. SEN. OVERBY: I'm inclined to agree with that. Imp. MURPHY: Wait just a minute. Wait just a minute, Mr. Attorney General. Is it not your philosophy and your position and your duty that all citizens of Georgia should be adequately protected? 24 MR. BOLTON: Yes, sir. REP. MURPHY: But you're changing your position now. MR. BOLTON: But our court never has said that attorney's fees were part of the compensation, and we are changing the basic law of the land. JUDGE NICHOLS: We said that first by Bowers. MR. BOLTON: Yes, sir, and you changed it. JUDGE NICHOLS: And the court stands four to three now, and every time we have a change on the Court, \ve have a change of policy, which is utterly ridiculous, but I can give you another example of what you're talking about, Tom. I know of one particular case where they absolutely destroyed a person's business. This was a widow I was talking of. 'rhis other one is another case, where they absolutely had to move. They had to rent a place. He finally bought him a place and had to come back and build a building, and as a matter of fact, they condemned his property twice, and the Highway Department pointed out to him the place that they let him go. The first time he said, "Well, I won't even appeal. I'll take what you give me," which he did, and then they put him in another place and said, "Well, don't move any more. Here's a place we're not going to take.'~ \vi thin a year they took that one. Then he had to go out and didn't get a dime for expenses of moving or anything. 'l'hat' s the sort of thing I'm talking about. 25 We can put it in the Constitution or give the Legislature the right to protect that sort of a situation, where if they are entitled to it, they ought to be entitled. I don't care if i t ' s a ~illion dollars or ~wo million. If it's legitimat!, they ought to have it. GOV. BUSBEE: JUdge, let me just bring up one point, and I hate to be put in the position. I have tried many condemnation cases, and maybe I should be cast in that. lot, but I just want to say just to give some balance to what you're saying that the State has been taken advantage of on many occasions. JUDGE NICHOLS: I know they have. GQV. BUSBEE: In many counties by many juries for some local people to where we darn near couldn't even afford to build a highway when they got through with, us, where somebody has paid, you know, like $60 an acre for land and be paid ~50,OOO an acre for it, and I just want to say as part of the modus operandi that's used by some now for the trial of condemnation cases against the State, is after you have had these appraisals made, I'm not sayin9 the State is always right, but if there are those laws, on those occasions it will tell that client, "Let's litigate it. I think Wf{:. can get more. I'm not going to charge you anything unless ~ can get you more, and I'll be paid out of that." That encourages somewhat to litigate, but the lawyer is not in a position to guarantee 26 he's going to get more, so I'm not saying it's anything wrong, but where the lawyer is going to be paid the attorney's fees over and above the amount of the appraisal, then it's a pretty good risk on each occasion of litigating because it's assured that if you get even what was offered to begin with, if you get that, then you're going to get attorney's fees. For instance, you have three appraisers, and you have ~ all three appraisals say of $1,000 an acre, 100 acres, $100,000. All right. You go litigate. You take those appraisals that the State is using and what they have offered, and if you put in, the way this thing is written now, if you " put that in, the lawyer is going to get a third of whatever they set anyway, even though they give what they offered to begin with, and that's automatic. That would be in effect automatic attorney's fees, if you wanted to. I'm not saying a lawyer would ever do that. SEN. HOLLOWAY: Oh, no. , '1< SEN. OVERBY: Certainly not. REP. MURPHY: I disagree with some of the things you said. GOV. BUSBEE~ The wAy it's written right h~re. REP. MURPHY: I disagree \.,ri th some of 'the things you're saying on where it's automatic, but I think it should be fixed that where the Court offers no more than you're offered, they shouldn't get attorney's fees, and the only way I think you could do that is leave it to the discretion of the General Assembly to fix it. GOV. BUSBEE: You admit, don't you, Tom, that what I said is CQrrect if they left it like it is now? REP. 11URPHY: If they left it like i t is now, you get it. If they paid you less, you would get attorney's fees, whether they paid you less or not. GOV. BUSBEE: Well, you would automatically get i t in every case, and we couldn't afford it. REP. SNOW: Well, I don't think we ought to do anything to encourage litigation. GOV. BUSBEE: No. I know. ,< REP. SNOW: We're having trouble in my area of the State righ.t nml highways. SEN. OVERBY: You're still practicing law? REP. SNOW: Well, I'm practicing some, but I'm spending more time trying to help the General Assembly get these right-of-ways and going out and talking to people and getting it, and I'm not getting any compensation for it, and I think there is some responsibility on my part to do that, and I don't mind doing that, and I have made a whole lot of folks mad at me doing that. REP. MURPHY: I still practice law hard, Mr. Snow. REP. SNOW: I don't condemn anybody for doing that. I think it's nice. 28 MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not a member of the COlnrnittee, but if I could address the issue just for a moment, one of the charges that was given to the Article Committees was to help make the Constitution a little more flexible, and it seems to me that the Speaker's motion to leave this as a matter that the General Assembly can address -- and the General Assembly sets in many instances the public policy of the State then I see no problem, and this accomplishes one of ,those ends, which makes the Constitution more flexible in this regard, leaving it to the General Assembly, subject to the Governor's veto powers, to address the issues, should the occasion arise. !. SEN. CONNELL: What you said, Mr. Governor, is it's easier to change every year in the General Assembly than it would be to go back and have an amendment to.the Constitution. So that's what you're saying? MR. HARRIS: That's right. MR. DOLTON: I would like to say again and speaking of the Law Department too, I would lots rather the General Assembly fix this than the courts and the federal government over there and a court render an opinion up there and we don't know what in the hell we're doing with the opinion. GOV. BUSBEE: Tom if you would make a motion on your amendment, I think we could discuss it. REP. MURPHY: I will make a motion, Mr. Chairman, , 29 that Section (d) be amended to read GOV. BUSBEE: Excuse me, Hr. Speaker. lIe had it written up. See if this is what you're saying. HR. lULL: "The General Assembly may provide by law for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation." GOV. BUSBEE: That's your motion? REP. MURPHY: There's no problem with that. GOV. BUSBEE: Is that your motion? JUDGE NICHOLS: Is that "shall" or "may"? GOV. BUS BEE: "May. " JUDGE NICHOLS: Run that by me again. l1R. HILL: "The General Assembly may provide by law for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation." JUDGE NICHOLS: That's all right. MR. BOLTON: They wori't have to now, but they could. REP. MURPHY: It might ought to include, Hr. Chairman, "which' shall include reasonable attorney's fees." That might ought to be in there to avoid any problem with the court determining it. JUDGE NICHOLS: Yes. That would be the first argument coming up, "That didn't include attorney's fees." All expenses in litigation including -- in Bowers it said, "All 30 . expenses of litigation." REP. MURPHY: Did you hear what he said, Judge? JUDGE NICHOLS: No. REP. MURPHY: He said the damn Attorney General would be the first one to raise that too. JUDGE NICHOLS: Here's one thing, Mr. Speaker, I'm talking about fixing, and I noticed when this first thing came out, the first draft of this. Somehere I got the information or the opinion in paying on the prepayment of just and adequate compensation that the General Assembly may fix the amount to be paid. What I'm getting at is this, that the General Assembly, if you're condemning a $500,000 piece of property, let's don't permit the General Assembly to say by law that they can pay one percent of tllat against the just and adequate compensation r prepayment. In other words, if the person has got whatever you determine ought to be paid, if that's the value, that ought to be paid. Do you agree with me? REP. MURPHY: Yes, I agree. JUDGE NICHOLS: And not one percent, because that would be $10 on a $500,000 piece of property. REP. MURPHY: I agree with you, sir, but I think it ought to be left up to the General Assembly to say it. I don't think we ought to write the technicalities of that in the Constitution. JUDGE NICHOLS: That's what I'm concerned with. 'f, 31 SEN. OVERBY: I think we ought to include the attorney's fees in the language. JUDGE NICHOLS: The language ought to be in there. I agree with you. \ REP. MURPHY: Mel is taking care of, that I think now. GOV. BUSBEE: Let me ask you, Hr. Speaker, if you are fixing to open up \"i th the reasonable expenses, not just the attorney's fees, appraisal fees, your relocation expenses and other things, can you just spell. -- you're trying to get to attorney's'fees is 'what you're trying to get, but if relocation and all that is in there too, you're going to open the barnyard. REP. NURPHY: Governor, you've been out of the law practice for six years, and appraisals cost an~.,here from 500 to 1500 to 2,000, talking about the size of the property you're litigating on. GOV. BUSBEE: Well, do you have any problems with the way he has written it? i1R. HILL: "Reasonable expenses would include appraisal fees." JUDGE NICHOLS: Where does it show what he's talking about? The State has what they call MAl appraisers, and God knm'ls! I expect if you check the budget over there you would find out they're paying them as much as 30 or $40,000 a year to appraise this property. Now, that little widow I 32 was talking about back yonder, she couldn't pay them to come in as her appraiser to offset or counter what they're saying. That's what I and what Tom was talking about. You have some expenses. REP. MURPHY: Judge, I've been on both sides of this issue. JUDGE NICHOLS: I have too. REP. NURPHY: I have condemned property for the County, and the last piece I condemned for the County, the jury ", gave them less than I offered. Then I refused to condemn 1-20 for the State. I said, "I'm going to refuse it. I'm going to " I,' b e '.1. v on the folks side." Of course there was a lot more property -<,, on that side, but I've been on both sides, and all I'm saying -' is we ought to fix this law where the General Assembly could pass a law that says if they offer you $20,000 and you get less than that, you don't get no expenses, no attorney fees, but " if they offer you $20,000 and you $30,000, you ought not to pay the expenses out of it because you're back where you were. That's all I'm saying. JUDGE NICHOLS: That's all it means, is to make them whole. That's what it means. They're not supposed to make any money out of it. GOV. BUSBEE: Let me read it again. SEN. HOLLOWAY: Most of them do, Judge. JUDGE NICHOLS: Not most of them. " ~L 33 SEN. HOLLOWAY: Yeah, they do too. REP. SNOW: How many times have you changed your opinion on this? MR. BOLTON: vle had a man in the General Assembly. Governor, who was that man from down there in South Georgia? His son worked in your old law firm there. He used to have a widow women he always talked about. I didn't know the Chief Judge was going to too. JUDGE NICHOLS: Well, mine is on the record that I referred to. Her name is King, if you want to read it. GOV. BUSBEE: Let me read again, if I might, the way they have drafted, Mr. Speaker, and see if this is the sense of your motion. "The General Assembly may provide by law for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses, including attorney's fees." Is that your m0t:-ion? REP. MURPHY: Yes, sir. That's my motion. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second to that motion? REP. MURPHY: As a part of just and adequate compensation. GOV. BUSBEE: Yes. REP. HURPHY: That 's my motion. GOV. BUSBEE: "Incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation." REP. HURPHY: That's my motion. JUDGE NICHOLS: All right. I second that motion. 34 JUDGE DEEN: Call the question. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded that Paragraph (d) of -- subparagraph (d) of Paragraph I be changed to read as, "The General Assembly may provide by law for the payment by the condemnor of reasonable expenses, including attorney fees, incurred by the condemnee in determining just and adequate compensation." The motion has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? If not, all those in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted. All right. Now, I think we need to go back, since we have used severability here and separated these. What on Paragraph (a), SUbparagraph (a), there is no change. Is there an objection to its adoption? If not, on (b) there is a change which was pointed out that quick taking would be extended "or for' any other pUblic purposes as determined by the General Assembly.1I Again, that's discretionary. Is there any objection to the adoption of Paragraph (b)? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph (b) is adopted. Subparagraph (c): "The General Assembly shall by law required the condemnor to make prepayment against adequate compensation." 35 The change is that the existing Constitution says "may" and this says "shall." REP. MURPHY: t-'lay I ask a question, sir? GOV.' BUSBEE: All right. REP. .r-1URPHY: Does that law now not require them to make the payment? MR. HILL: The law requires prepayment. In this case, quick taking. GOV. BUSBEE: I think, Tom, it's already in the law for quick taking, but I don't think they have to put it up here as a condition precedent the exercise of the right. Before they take the property they have to do it. REP. MURPHY: In Speci,al f1aster cases when they have the hearing, whatever the Special Master orders, they have to put that into court. GOV. BUSBEE: That's by statute. All of this is by statute. REP. HURPHY: That's all by statute, every condemnation. JUDGE NICHOLS: You're talking about the general law, the Highway 1;\ct, the way they take it without the Special Masters. REP. NURPHY: 'l'hey have to pay it into court when they file it. JUDGE NICHOLS: That's right. 36 GOV. BUSBEE: Tom, what this does though is it's true in that instance because the Legislature says that it's true. REP I1URPHY: What I'm saying, Governor, is I think the law already provides for it. GOV. BUSBEE: Well, if it doesn't, now may I just make a suggestion. I've been cautioned by some lawyers there that it would be disastrous where there is not a Special Master where you don't have the quick taking, that you're going to have to put up compensation even though they don't get the property, but is there any objection to just leaving it to the Legislature again the discretion as it is today? REP. SNo\-v: So moved. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I move that we put "may" instead of "shall." GOV. BUSBEE~ All right. The motion has been made that we leave the word "may" as it presently exists instead of "shall" and give the 'iegislature the authority. Is there a second? REP. SNOW: Second. MR. MILLER: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. Any discussion? If not, all those in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? 37 (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: So amended. Is there any objection to the adoption of paragraph (c) as amended? If not, subparagraph (c) is adopted. (d) has already been acted on. All right. Now, (e) would be for relocation assistance payments as provided by the federal government nmv. REP. SNOW: Isn't that taken care of in (d)? SEN. HOLLOWAY: I would think so. JUDGE NICijOLS: That ought to be covered" but it would prouably raise the question. Somebody will say it's not covered. REP. MURPHY: I don't think it's covered to me at all myself. JUDGE NICHOLS: I think it ought to remain in there. PP. MURPHY: I do too. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. REP. MURPHY: I move we adopt (e) as it is. HR. BOLTON: If you want to be sure that it's there, I would suggest you leave (e) in there. JUDGE NICHOLS: I second the motion. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded that (e) be left in. Is there any discussion on that? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye~" 38 (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (NO response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's in there. All right. Private ways, Paragraph II, it is added there just and adequate, and 1he new words are "and adequate," and I don't think that's a material or substantive change though. JUDGE NICHOLS: Just and adequate. SEN. HOLLmlAY: Isn't that redundant? SEN. OVERBY: Just might not always be adequate. It might not be. GOV. BUSBEE: That makes a constitutional lawyer. What do you think, Charlie? MR. TIDWELL: I think that the Chief Justice suggested that. That's what we always talk about. GOV. BUSBEE: It just makes it a little longer. All right. I entertain a motion on Paragraph II? JUDGE NICHOLS: I so move adopting it. " GOV. oUSBEE: With the new language? JUDGE NICHOLS: "And adequate." GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there a second? SEN. OVERBY: Second. GOV. BUSB~E: Hotion made and seconded. Any discussion? (No response) 39 GOV. BUSBEE: If not, Paragraph II is adopted. All right. Paragraph III, Tidewater titles confirmed, there has been no change on that. Is there an objection to its adoption? MR. BOLTON: I move its adoption. REP. l'1URPHY: I have no idea what it does itself. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Let's do this. If there is no objection, let's adopt it, and what we'll do now on Section III, we've gone through each of the paragraphs on eminent domain. We had deferred 'that, so that was a part of Article I. Is there objection to the adoption first of Section III as amended? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, Section III~is adopted. All right. Now then, that goes back to Article I. Is there adoption of Article -REP. HURPHY: Hold it now. Hold it nO\v. GOV. BUSBEE: We're going to reconsider~tion immediately after this. REP. f1URPHY: You've got me a little fast. I've got so many documents I can't keep up with you. Some of this stuff, Governor, I want to make a motion we reconsider. GOV. BUSBEE: We stated right before you aot here that we werE: going to perfect these three Articles, and then \Ie would immediately start at the front Article and reconsiderations. 40 REP. MURPHY: All right, sir. I'm sorry. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Section III of Article I has been adopted, and now I entertain a motion now for the adoption of Article I. JUDGE CALHOUN: So moved. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second? REP. SNOW: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: Motion made and seconded. Any discussion? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted, and nQ\v we'll start with the reconsiderations. Is that correct? MR. TIDWELL: That's right. REP. HURPHY: Governor, if you have got a copy of that thing like we had it before last time, I can't find my copy, before we start making the changes. HR. HILL: I have a copy here. REP. MURPHY: Could I borrow it1 l-Ut. 'nDWELL: Article I, Hr. Speaker: REP. NURPHY: Everything we messed with at the last meeting. \ \ i!~ 41 GOv. BUSBEE: All right. We'll go back. Is there any desire to reconsider anything in Article I that we adopted? REP. SNOW: C~vernor- GOV. BUSBEE: All right. REP. SNOW: I think I made the motion last time or at least I seconded the motion relative to the preamble. I don't have the language in front of me. I think the Speaker does now, but I would move that we go to the original language that we had in the preamble. REP. MURPHY: I've got a copy of what we did sonlewhere. JUDGE NICHOLS: ? the family," didn't we? And we just put in there "and of REP. SNOW: And we added "and of the family," but there was other GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Let me see if I can state your motion. REP. SNOW: That's all right. That's fine. It's Paragraph I. GOV. BUSBEE: We did make a change in the preamble. He added "and of the family" on line 7 of the preamble on page 1 of the final draft of the Committee to Revise Article I. Do you recall that now? JUDGE NICHOLS: Yeah. GOV. BUSBEE: Is that what your motion is? 42 REP. SNOW: Mine is relative to Paragraph I rather than the preamble. GOV. BUSBEE: I'll go back to the preamble. The only change we made was "and happiness of the citizen and of the family." That was the only change made in the preamble. Okay. There is no motion to reconsider the preamble. So it will stand as is. Article I is the Bill of Rights. All right. Now, I call Mr. Snow. REP. SNOW: I move that we go to the original language recommended by the Commission, the McWhorter ", Committee. ~' ) GOV. BUSBEE: Which paragraph? REP. SNOW: Paragraph I. MR. MILLER: I second. REP. SNOW: Yes. It would be where it would read, "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor be denied the equal protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of civil rights or discriminated against in the exercise thereof because of race, sex, national origin, religion or ancestry." GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second? MR. MILLER: I second. GOV. BUSBEE: The Lieutenant Governor seconds. All right. Now for discussion, that's on Paragraph I, going back 43 as the Subconuuittee recommended it. Any discussion on that? JUDGE NICHOLS: I oppose it. I think the Bill of Rights is perfect like it is. I don't think we need to have it added in there. That's all taken care of in the Constitution as is now provided, equal protection in the Executive Clause. JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Chairman, I didn't mean to int9rrupt. I would like to suggest that we pick up the words "race, sex, nat~onal origin, religion or ancestry" separately because I think I'm with Rep. Snow on all except the word "sex," but I would like to discuss each one separately. GOV. BUSBEE: Okay. All right. There has been a n~ve. I think your motion is, Judge, that you have a division of the question on these. Is that it? JUDGE DEEN: That's what I was searching for. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there a substitute motion? REP. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, as everyone is well aware, I've expressed my position many, many times on the Equal Rights Amendment, and I am opposed to it and always have been and always will be, but I'm trying to look at this Constitution, the rewrite of this Constitution in a way, and I mean no disrespect to the Judiciary in what I'm fixing to say here, but I am trying to look at it in a reasonable way to where we can pass it through the House of Representatives and for passage by the people of Georgia. Unless we do something 44 in this regard to put some of this language in, we don't have a chance of a proverbial snowball in Hades of passing it unless we put something like this in, and I think there has been too much hard work gone into rewriting this Constitution and too much effort, too much time and too much money for us to let some of our personal feelings destroy whatever chance it has of being adopted by the people, and that's my feelings about it. GOV. BUSBEE: Lieutenant Governor? MR. MILLER: I agree with the Speaker completely, except in the fact that I support the Equal Rights Amendment, " but I agree with him. , .~ GOV. BUSBEE: But you all are somewhat together? tolR. MILLER: We're together on this, and I certainly REP. SNOW: That should be noted. I,m. IHLLER: I don't think it can be passed. z REP. MURPHY: I think both of us are worried about our positions now. REP. SNOV'l: I worried nO\lI about whether or not I can even vote at all. MR. MILLER: I don't think it can be passed by the General AsseI~ly, and I don't think it can be passed by the people of Georgia unless we have this kind of language in here, and one of the main arguments that I have heard time and time against the Equal Rights Amendment as it has been submitted to 45 the States is that this is something that ought to be left to the States. This is something we don't want the federal governluent involved in. Well, right here is our chance now to leave it to the States and to write it into our own State Constitution. That's all I'm saying. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Any other discussion? REP. SNOW: Let me make a statement rather in support of my motion to return the original language, and I too have opposed consistently, the Equal Rights Amendment. The reason that I moved originally to take this provision out was that I felt that possibly there might be limitations that were being placed on rights by spelling these matters out, but I don't believe that at all. I think and I agree with the Lieutenant Governor on this, that our primary purpose is to try to handle these questions on the State level. I'm leery of what the Equal Rights Amendment might do on a national level, - but on a State level I can see no law that we should ever pass that would not be for equality among all people in the State. GOV. BUSBEE: Judge? JUDGE DEEN: Governor, I think I told Rep. Harris that I need to leave about 11:30, and I thought we were progressing toward that. GOV. BUSBEE: We're going to make it. JUDGE DEEN: Maybe in that area, but I would like to speak in support of Rep. Snow's motion with one exception now, 46 and I'm going to finally vote to leave the word "sex" out, and I want to explain my position why I would like to leave that out and put the others in. The original charter of this State provided that no rum and no lawyers and no slaves would be brought into Georgia. So what I'm saying is the original position of the State was one of no discrimination racially. All right. Of course I think during the Civil War this State voted not to secede the first time and finally they did vote to secede. All ,', right. Having said that, let me first speak on sex, and then I'll get back to race, national origin, religion and ancestry. One, the Supreme Court of Georgia has ruled that biologically and physiologically there is a difference between the two sexes. I think there is a recent Supreme Court on that where '. JUDGE NICHOLS: We'll take judicial notice of that. "' JUDGE DEEN: The attempt to rule that rape laws under the Constitution was with the idea that there ought to be a rape law applying to men. The Supreme Court said you :'! can take judicial notice there is a biological difference. All right. My two ideas of not voting to leave sex in there goes back to the home, that Colorado and other states that have absolutely -- federal judges would so hold I believe and maybe some state judges that absolute equality of sex could mean that --'we're putting in happiness of the family 47 f ,t' up in the preamble, but I think we're undermining what's known as the family today with the possibility that absolute no discrimination of sex could be marriages like in Colorado between two of a kind, but of course absolute equality could send them off to war. Now, I'm no~ going to say I'm going to leave sex. I'm going to vote to leave that out because of the biological and physiological difference. Now, let me get to the word "race." I think we need the word "race ll in our Constitution, and I agree with everything that's been said here, that it's going to take something like this to pass this Constitution. The reason I want to put race back in is when our State was first set up, we had no racial discrimination. That is no slaves were allowed into Georgia. ,- All right. But I want to call your attention that the number one book' in our State universities and in our pUblic schools today is titled, subtitled IIPreservation of the Favored Races. II Now, some of you are aware of the debate going around in our State about the origins, where we come front. The number one book, the most popular book that's forced on our young people state-wide exclusively is IIpreservation of the Favored Races. II 'I'hat's the name of Charles Darwin's book. Most biology teachers are not even familiar with the title, but it's Origin of Species through Natural Selection, or Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life. How, what 1 1 m saying is you could argue that we i' I, 48 have a racist philosophy and an atheistic concept, but I won't get into that too much of being promulgated in our State, and I think Georgia should go on record, particularly since we have that exclusive rnonopoly philosophy forced on our young people in the guise of science.' It's a religious philosophy, preser- vation of the favored races. So I think this Committee ought to go on record saying that we are against racism in this state, and I think we need that in there. Now, let me go to ancestry, and no one may agree with this, but if you argue that you have human ancestry in this State only, then you are discriminated against. If you contend that you have animal ancestry in this State in our '. universities and pUblic schools, then we have books that argue, that call this science. If you argue that you have exclusive human ancestry, this is prohibited in our public schools. One is no more religious than the other, and I think we ought to go on record in this State saying no discrimination racially or as to your ancestry. People that say they have only human ancestry should not be discriminated against by those who literally and fundamentally believe that they have animal ancestry. I don't have any objections to anyone who claims that they have some kind of animal ancestry, but this is forced on young people today, and I think we ought to go on record saying that there should be no discrimination based on race and ancestry, no discrimination on religion. 'j. 49 I , All right. Now, let's get to religion just a minute. Evolutionary fundamentalism is a non-theistic religion that's being promulgated in our public universities and our public schools. I would like to elaborate on some of the homicide and suicide games that are being taught under values clarification where students are asked who would you tell that you considered committing suicide; the fallout shelter games where young people are forced to sacrifice and fictitiously kill people, and if you don't believe that, get a copy of ,,... Values Clarification. It's taught allover Georgia and all ; over America. I~OW, the reason I would like to support four-fifths of Rep. Snow's motion is because there is no biological difference other than color and race; therefore, we should go on record saying that Georgia is not a racist State. We should go on record saying that we're not going to have any discrimi- nation among religions, theistic or atheistic. Now, a lot of people say, "Vvell, atheistic religions, I mean atheism is not a religion." Madyln Hurray O'Hare has brought her American Atheistic Church to Georgia. Thursday is her sabbath, and yet we teach her concept of origins, and we don't teach the concepts of theists, who are no more religious than the atheists. -I'll.con<;rlude by saying that I think this is probably the most important thing we can put into the Constitution of this State, and it's something that Georgia can go on record f ~, i. ,~. ,\::",,-// I' 50 as not being even though we're only teaching preservation of the favored races, I think we need to counter that by saying we're not a racist State and we're against racism, and we're against discrimination on religion, vle're against discrimination on ancestry and national origin, but if \.,re can \o'lOrk it where ,. I can vote to leave the word "sex" out, I would like to enthusiastically adopt everything else Rep. Snow has said. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Mr. Speaker? " REP. HURPHY: Mr. Chairman, I vlOuld like to of fer I ' an amendment to Mr. Snow's motion, and I would offer the amendment because I think we can eliminate everybody's problem. I think we can achieve what 've want to to get people to help us pass this thing, and we could eliminate the Judge's problem, and we could eliminate Mr. Snow's problem if we'll just put a " .. period after the \V'ord II thereof ," and that just says nobody ; will be discriminated against for any reason, and that's all we say. If we don't leave in all these things these folks are talking about, it just says they'll have equal protection and they won't be denied equal protection, they ,.,on' t be denied the Georgia civil rights or discriminated against in the exercise thereof for any reason, and it just says all persons have got equal rights; that's all it says. Just put a period after the word "thereof" and quit right there. GOV. BUSBEE: I don't see where you're talking of. SEN. OVERBY: I don't see where you are, Mr. "\!,!' 51 Speaker. ,. :~ REP. MURPHY: It would read that "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor be denied the equal protection of the law, nor be denied the enjoyment of civil rights or discrimination against in their exercise thereof." That says no person is going to be discriminated and no person is going to be denied their rights, and it leaves all that other junk out. It gets your civil rights in. GOV. BUSBEE: No, it doesn't. REP. HURPHY: Yes, it does too. Everybody is a person I think. JUDGE CALHOUN: I second that amendment if it needs one. REP. MURPHY: I think the Judge would take judicial knowledge of that, that everybody is a person. JUDGE NICHOLS: (Nods affirmatively) MR. BOLTON: Depending on how they act at a given moment. JUDGE NICHOLS: Either one, one or the other. HEP. MURPHY: That just says everybody is going to be given equal protection, and nobody can be denied their civil rights and discriminated thereof. JUDGE NICHOLS: I'll go with that, but I don't think it's necessary. I don't think any of this stuff is necessary. I f 52 I think it's already taken care of in the Constitution. REP. MURPHY: Judge, I agree with you in the judicial field, but in the political field I would totally disagree with you. JUDGE NICHOLS: In order to pass the Constitution I will go with that. JUDGE DEEN: Well, I think we will be accused of dodging the word "race." REP. MUHPHY: I don't see how they could. I don't see how they could, because everybody is a person, whether they are white, yellow, black, green or purple; they are still a person. . ~: REP. SNOW: And we already know they have taken '.' ,. judicial notice of the fact that they are either male or ~ " female. REP. MURPHY: That is correct. I'm delighted ~ you're learning something, Mr. Snow. REP. SNOW: I'm learning a lot. REP. MURPHY: There's hope for you now. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. You've got a motion that you go through the word "thereof" as written and put a period, and the new language would read, "Nor be denied the equal protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of civil rights or discriminated against in the exercise thereof." REP. MURPHY: That's right. ! 1\':.F. 53 amend? GOV. BUSBEE: Is there a second to this motion to JUDGE CALHOUN: I second. I GOV. BUSBEE: Motion made that this amendment be adopted. will you withdraw your motion? MR. HARRIS: That's a substitute. JUDGE DEEN: That's an argument. I think I'm going to vote in favor of this motion. ~OV. BUSBEE: All those in favor, say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) \ t '''''l~ GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted. That's Paragraph I. , All right. Is there any other part of Article I that anyone desires to reconsider at this time? MR. HILL: Mr. Chairman, I would point out that the " Committee to Revise Article I had this language in there about the equal protection of the laws, and because of that, they removed a provision in Section II, which has served as our equal protection language in this State. So I am not sure whether you want to omit that Paragraph III, which is in the draft of Section II, Paragraph III, page 6. Wait a second ..:3 Page 5. GOV. BUSBEE: It's on page 5. What he is speaking of is we have in our existing Constitution the words contained on page 5 in Section II, Paragraph III, where it provides, "Protection to person and property is the paramount duty of the government and shall be impartial and complete." That has been in our Constitution for many years. They had left it out because of the language that they have put over here. ~'lhat is the feeling of the Committee on this? JUDGE CALHOUN: I think it ought to be in. I think it is in. MR. HILL: It is in now. JUDGE CALHOUN: At a different place .) l' MR. HILL: It is in now, yes, but the point is it could be considered redundant in light of the equal protection language in Paragraph I of Section I. At least that's how the Committee to Revise Article I felt. GOv. BUSBEE: It's in there now, unless somebody !t' 1" desires to leave it out. REP. SNOW: Let's leave it in there. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Look at page 5, Section II. On page 5, section II, subparagraph III, it's on line 15, Protection the duty of government. SEN. OVERBY: I think we ought to leave it in. REP. SNOW: Let's leave it in. JUDGE NICHOLS: That's the reason I said the other thing was unnecessary. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. There's the point. If I'; 55 nobody moves to take it out, it's in. Is there any other reconsideration desired on Article I? REP. MURPHY: Judge, I think that particular paragraph of our Constitution is a magnificent statement of nothing. JUDGE NICHOLS: Of course it is. REP. MURPHY: Magnificent statement of nothing. GOV. BUSBEE: We've adopted II. Is there any reconsideration on II? If not, we'll go to III. Someone mentioned the gratuity thing in III. Arthur, on the gratuity, didn't you all have something on leaving the gratuities as it is? MR. BOLTON: I think we should leave the gratuity provision in the Constitution just the way it is. GOV. BUSBEE: Article III. I'm in Article III now. REP. SNOW: What page is it? MR. HARRIS: Page 13. GOV. BUSBEE: I think a motion, without my reading it are you moving that we leave the gratuities exactly as it is today? MR. BOLTON: Unless somebody has got a better thing. As it is now. REP. MURPHY: I move we go back to the Constitution as we have it now on gratuities. HR. HARRIS: Does your motion include the existing 56 ten amendments? REP. MURPH~: Just the original Constitution. HR. BOLTON: You've got to put the amendments in there though. \vell -- HR. HARRIS: That provide for $250,000 for an oil GOV. BUSBEE: I'm going to calIon Charlie Tidwell ;; just for a minute about going back. I know the thrust of the motion is to put it back like it is, and what comment do you have on that, Charlie? ...,:" I <\'\ '. ,r:.," MR. TIDWELL: For the benefit of the Select () c Committee members who were not privy to the deliberation of the Article III Revision, the gratuities section is an often amended paragraph of the Constitution. It is fruitful grounds ~ '-' ," for the submission of amendments that are not ratified, and t.: :..J. that Subcommittee that dealt with that Article struggled long and hard to try to come up with an alternative. ~hey came up with a proposal, and it was rejected, and they went back and they labored and they tried to corne up with something that was .'1 acceptable. What was finally accepted is what you see in front of you, and that is probably a worthy s~ggestion for a change insofar as the General Assembly is concerned, but it has ramifications that go beyond just limitations upon the General , I Asserly. By court construction, the present gratuities section of the Constitution has been determined to also provide 57 I a prohibition on counties and municipalities and local government school boards so that they are also prohibited by this provision of the Constitution from granting gratuities. The change that you have before you in my judgment if the courts are called on to say whether that will be extended to local governments, they will not because now you've got a provision that say~ gratuities can be granted if the General Assembly in two successive sessions of the General Assembly shall grant a gratuity or donation for a public purpose. It would be hard for me to see how the court could say that that provision now applies to counties and municipalities, and so what you're doing in effect if you " adopt this, you have completely removed any limitation in the , Constitution from any prohibition of local governments granting gratuities. REP. SHOW: Well, that's not desireable at all. JUDGE CALHOUN: Doesn't another provision in the Constitution specify for what public monies can be spent? ~"ouldn't that prohibit it from doing it? !-iK. TIDWELL: I don't think in its entirety it would, Judge. The ramifications of it they say now the powers of counties have been locked, unlocked without having those enumerated purposes, and they say any other purpose that the General Assembly shall provide, that is a public purpose. Whether that would do it or not, I don't know. I'm fearful that it would. " 58 REP. SNOW: Can we not lock something into this where it would cover that without going back to all that language? MU. TIDWELL: Well, there's a way. There's a good bit of thought that subscribes to the theory that the gratuity section has stood in the State as good public policy, and granted, you have had about nine or ten amendments to it. GOV. BUSBEE: Let me interrupt just a minute. 'rhey I re asking where the present Constitution is. It's on page 18, Hr. Speaker. You have the two main provisions and then the exemptions. 'l'hat's Paragraph XII of Article III. REP. MURPHY: Yes. I have found it, sir. GOV. BUSBEE: Section 8. MR. TIDWELL: As you all know', there can be unbelievable pressures brought to bear for a particular popular ~ cause to grant -- REP. SNOW: Somebody is sick in a municipality. :',) The city could give them the treasury. ,1 MR. TIDNELL: Or to grant veterans' bonuses or any of these type things. MR. BOLTON: The only reason Georgia didn't give away $100 million in 1952 is because of the gratuity provision of the Georgia Constitution, because I know, because I stood in the House on the floor and fought it, and I'm very strong I didn't vote for this thing the other day. I am very strong, unless somebody has got somehow they can convince me, that we ought to leave the thing like i t is, and I am going to oppose it, if you leave it like it is now, because we use this thing 50 times a month over there in the Attorney General's office telling folks they can't do things. IlliP. MURPHY: You're going to oppose it if we leave it like it is in the present Constitution? MR. dOLTON: No, no. :1.1 REP. SNOW: .<" ~ the Speaker is right. ;:-, Let's go back to the original. I think GOV. BUSBEE: Let's see. Those that desire to leave l, it like i t is, let me see if I state the motion correctly. All right. This would be a substitution for Paragraph VI, which is entitled "Gratuities," and if you strike everything . in the proposal on gra tui ties -- SEN. OVERBY: Referring to Paragraph VI, Governor? GOV. BUSBEE: On Paragraph VI, and you would substitute the existing Paragraph XII of Article III, Section 8 of the Constitution today, and those would be your main two Article Sections which would be, "Except as provided in this Constitution, the General Assembly shall not by vote, resolution or order grant any donation or gratuity in favor of any person, corporation or association. Secondly, the General Assembly shall not grant or authorize extra compensation to any 60 public officer, agent or contractor after the services have been rendered or the contract entered into," and it would also include all of the exemptions already passed by the people of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. HR. HARRIS: There are two 9s. GOV. BUSBEE: There are two 9s now. And 9, but we would renumber the last paragraph 9 to make it 9 and 10. That is exactly as is. Okay. Mr. Speaker? REP. MURPHY: The gentleman on my right has called to my attention in Article IX, Paragraph 4 or section 4 of , Paragraph 3, there is a provision in the Constitution there l' prohibiting where the General Assembly could not allow counties '--::~~'t~ ~~: and cities to give away stuff in that particular section, but " my reason for feeling this way about it is I think between now '".~ ] and the General Assembly, we can come up with better language than these exceptions we've got. I think with the help of the Attorney General, we can come up with that, but I think vIe ought to keep in there that we can't give gratuities without the people voting for it. REP. SNOW: I agree with that. JUDGE DEEN: Could I comnlent on that? MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, you could put in Paragraphs land 2 of the present Paragraph XII and have Paragraph (b) on page 14, which by that paragraph carries forward the amendments 3 through 9 and 9 and not have to restate. "\, ;;, 61 GOV. BUSBEE: You know, I have a problem with that. If we can go on and do what you're moving to do, to put it ,I exactly as it's written in this book today, then the people know how much you get for oil wells and they know how much you're exempted for various things without having to go to some other instrument and look up general constitutional provisions. REP. MURPHY: It.'s my expectation, Mr. Harris, to put the best legal minds we have in the House to work to consolidate these things into simpler language to where it can tJe consolidated down and not have to have all these long c" phrases and send it back to this Committee, and I assume the Senate will be willing to do that, and I think that language could be consolidated and compressed considerably and leave it like it is to where the Attorney General wouldn't have the problems he did and the General Assembly would not be allowed to give gratuities. I think it puts entirely too much temptation, too much pressure on the General Assembly to give some highly emotional thing, a gratui~y, and I think it would just be. better if we didn't have that temptation. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. The motion is that on gratuities that it be left as in the existing Constitution, Paragraph XII. SEN. HOLLOWAY: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made, and the motion is seconded. Is there any further discussion? :>,,(, G2 JUDGE DEEN: Mr. Chairman, someone raised the question last time we met about the doctrine of sovereign immunity. As I understand it, now I'm agreeing to put it back like it was and leave it where the State cannot grant gratuities, but as I understand the doctrine of sovereign immunity is a court imposed rule, and if the court wanted to abandon that, of course I'm favor of the State, if a State truck runs over P somebody out there and that's not a gratuity. If the State abandons the idea that the King can do no wrong, now this would in no way prohibit the court from doing that later. GOV. 13USBEE: rl'hat has nothing to do \'li th immunity, Judge. All right. Is there any further discussion? MR. BOLTON: Hot that the court ought to do it if you understand. JUDGE DEEN: Well, that's debateable. MR. BOLTON: You think we're going to need another legislature. GOV. BUSBEE: Is there any further di-scussion to II leaving the gratuities as is? (NO response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye." (AYes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: It's adopted. l< G3 :'1 MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, the staff has an earlier I draft of the proposal tllat basically does what you're talking about. REP. MURPHY: I would like very much to have it. ,I to you. MR. HARRIS: If you would like to have it furnished GOV. BUSBEE: Let me just state for the minutes of this meeting if I might, I think it's the sense of the Select Committee that what we're trying to do is to preserve Paragraphs 1 and 2, which are the prohibitions against gratuities and then in some way shorten the exemptions, which are the remaining paragraphs in the existing Constitution, and you say the staff had already made an attempt to do this? MR. HILL: (Nods affirmatively) GOV. BUSBEE: This will be given to the Legislative Conuni t tee? MR. HARRIS: Yes. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there any other ') reconsideration motions on this Article? Let me go paraqraph by paragraph now. These are only things that any member of the Select Committee has mentioned to me that they would like to reconsider. PiliP. MURPHY: Is that all we messed up now? HR. 'l'IDVVELL: I don't know how much we messed up last time. 64 MR. BOLTON: 'I'ha t '. saIl \ve know about now. HR. HILL: I wanted to clarify one thing where there's some confusion. I went back and checked with the recorder, but I went back and forth, and this is on the duties of the Lieutenant Governor. If we could look at Article V, Paragraph III and make sure that this is what you had agreed to last time. This what appeared to be the agreement of the Committee, that Article V, Paragraph III, the duties of the Lieutenant Governor -JUDGE NICHOLS: What page? MR. HILL: Page 1. Article V, page 1. Is this what the Comnlittee agreed to do? REP. MURPHY: That's what we agreed to. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I tried to make him Speaker of the House, but the Speaker wouldn't bUy that. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there any other questions? Are we through with all reconsiderations then? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: The next thing I would like to ask of the Select Committee is the way t~at this would be presented. We have five. I believe we have Articles I, II, III, IV, V and X now for consideration. How they will be presented to the Legislature. I want to callan Robin aarris at this time concerning that. MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman and members of the 65 Committee, we've got about four options for you to look at insofar as a method to proceed. Each of the Articles can be separately sUbmitted, \vhich as we've drafted them and in trying to align within each respective Article the subject matter that relates to that Article, we have moved certain things from Article I into Article II, from Article III into Article I, from X to III. So we run a risk of having these six Articles travel through different committees in the General Assembly without coordination as to changes that might be put into different Articles, and there's the risk of course of five being ratified and one not being ratified, which means then that to cover all those risks, we have to go back and undo basically everything that's been done and put Articles back where they were when we found them. The second option would be -- Article III seems to be the one to and from \vhich a substantial number of things have been moved. Hold back on Article III and go with I, II, IV, V and X, but vve "lOuld still have to make some ac1j ustments in I, II, IV, V and X that put us back in the posture we're starting in, and that's without much cohesion in all the Articles. The third option, possible option, would be to incorporate all six Articles in one resolution and let them travel as a body, having that one resolution incorporating all six Articles introduced simultaneously in the House and Senate, .1 " L' 66 asking the members of the Select Conuni ttee who are members of the House and Senate and the members \'1ho served on the Article Committees from the House and Senate to serve as sponsors in their respective bodies. That has a potential dra\'1back which is contained in the present Constitution in Article XII, which states that a proposal for one or more changes vii thin a single Article may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal for one or more changes in a single Article and a related change or related changes in one or more Artic]es may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal for a new Article may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal for a new Article and a related change or related changes in one or more other Articles may be submitted as a single amendment. It doesn't say that a proposal to offer six Articles 'may be submitted as a single amendment. The practical aspects of having it as a single amendment in traveling through the House and Senate are obvious. Secondly, the benefits that would accrue in having the resulting document ratified as one amendment, having to address only and secure support for the passage of only one amendment would be most beneficial as against going for six. The problem could be solved by offering ~lso in this new one resolution an amendment to Article XII to permit this, which assuming it's ratified in November of next yea~ would solve the potential technical problems. 67 MR. BOLTON: This year. MR. HARRIS: This year. Yeah. We've already had the new year. I'm sorry. But it would leave open between its passage by the General Assembly and its time to be voted on ir. November, it would leave it open to a court challenge by someone to corne in and say, "Hey, you can't do this. II And the fourth alternative is to not submit any of them, is to hold back on the sUbmission of any until Articles VI through IX are done, and the fifth alternative would be to propose a totally new Constitution with new revised Articles I through V and X and old Articles VI, VII, VIII and IX, which can be done under the present Article XII. You can submit a whole new Constitution. NOw, in the p~ocess of doing this, there would be obviously nothing to limit the General Assembly from making whatever changes it wanted to in VI through IX as the document found its way through the General Assembly. So every alternative has its good points and its drawbacks, and you need to tell us how you would like for us, your staff, to proceed in developing the document that needs to be presented to the General Assembly, hopefully next week. DOes any of that make sense? GOV. BUSBEE: May I say something on this point? I recognize that we have these problems, that if you ~.'lere to put say these six Articles one right after another, the people 68 in all likelihood would adopt all the Articles, but I don't thin]<. we can hazard the chance that they ,,,ould kill one where you were having a transfer, and this would create disaster. I don't see anything wrong in doing what the Legislature does in legislation all the time where you have ten sections in a bill, in an Act rather. You have ten sections in an Act, and you are going to change Sections I, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10. You go through and strike, amend this Act by striking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 and then restating the whole thing. Now, this is what we're talking about doing under the fifth option of what he has. If we just have a single amendment that will do exactly what we have done and at the same time in the same document leave the existing Constitution VI, VII, VIII and IX as is, publicly state this, then I think that there can be no chance whatsoever of striking down one and leaving a void in the Constitution, and that's the only intelligent way I see that we can proceed, is under the fifth option as you state. That is that we just draw up one con~titution where people have one document with the understanding we're coming back as a Select Committee and we're going to try and amend sections VI, VII, I mean Articles VI, VII, VIII and IX at the next go-round. Go ahead, Mr. Speaker. REP. MURPHY: 'l'ha t' s the only solution. The only intelligent solution w'e have is not to take any gamble at all. 69 That's the only way it can be done. MR. BOLTON: I would rather lose it all than in parts. You would go crazy trying to figure out what you had. REP. HURPHY: We would be taking a terrible gamble to do it any other way. GOV. BUSBEE: What is the feeling then? I don't know if we have a motion. SEN. HOLLO\-vAY: Well GOV. BUSBEE: Al? SEl'l. HOLLOVJi\Y: The reason we recodified the Constitution I was under the opinion was to put germane information under the right Articles so that we could indeed rewI:i te the Constitution Article b~r Article and thereby give the public a r'lore narrOvl choice in their vote. I think that was the reason we did it, wasn't it? GOV. BUSBEE: Yes. That's one of the reasons, yes. SEN. HOLLOWAY: But I don't know' if language could be written that if all six of them don't pass, the others go, but I sure would like to let the pUblic exercise the right to consider Article by Article rather than -- and I thought that was the reason we proceeded that way. GOV. BUSBEE: I think there was a dual purpose, as you pointed out, Sen. Ilollm"ay, is we wanted to have the SUbject matter as best we could, everything on education where whoever revised it, whether it was a Commission or whether 70 it was a Convention, could consider that subject matter. Also, when the people considered it, they wouldn't have the entire Constitution. They would consider it on an Article by Article basis, but I think you can see that there is a very practical problem right now involved, is that we're considering it on an Article by Article basis, and when we further recommend that you switch provisions, we can't take the chance. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I see that indeed, but what is wrong 'with saying that if Article: XYZ fails, this also fails and' preserve the right to vote by Article is all I'm saying. REP. HURPHY: Hell, what you have done, Senator, is if one Article fails, the whole thing fails. It's the same thing. GOV. BUSBEE: I think you need to do one thing, and let me tell you what that is. SEN. HOLLOWAY: So what? Then we'll have to get together and figure another way to \vrite the Constitution. That's exactly what I'm talking about. GOV. BUSBEE: I think if you would put -- and this will make it very clear to the people what we're proposing to do, that if you would put this provision which would be an amendment to Article XII and not just limit it to the Article or to the whole, that if you would say this, this would allow you to come back for the next two years and work on VI, VII, VIII and IX, and the language would read as follows: "A proposal for 71 the ratification of two or more new Articles may be submitted as a single an~ndment. A proposal for the ratification of two or more new Articles Vlith related changes within the Articles or with related changes in one or more Articles may be submitted as a single amendment." 'rhat would extend XII to do ~"hat we're talking about without stating the whole Constitution, but it really is just nothing but a technicality to put VI, VII, VIII and IX in there as you restate a bill \"hen you amend it, but I think we have to include it. I don't think we can leave room for a void if one fails that the other one passes when you're transferring one power from another. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I agree with you completely, Governor, lut what I am saying is this, if there is any legal way that we can permit the pUblic to vote Article by Article, I think it gives them a much wider choice, and \vhether it wins or loses is the name of the game. If it loses, then we've got to come back down here and figure a way to rewrite the Constitution. GOV. BUSBEE: Well, I would like to put it on an Article by Article basis if we had accomplished initially ""hat you're talking about, and you're correct. If everything was by subject matter and there was"no transfer of provisions as we found it to be necessary now, you are absolutely correct, but since there is or since there are transfers, many of these transfers, I don't see how we can leave that hanging like that without considering it together. \I 72 REP. HURPHY: Mr. Chairman? '~ "' GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Do you have anything? SEN. HOLLm'1AY: Are we through? GOV. BUSBEI~ : Were you through? SEN. HOLLOWAY: Yes. GOV. BUSBEE: Yes. REP. MURPHY: The Senator is imminently correct in that that is what we started out to do, Article by Article, and I made speeches allover this State, and I'm not going to back up on that, but what has happened to us is we have consolidated things out of one Article into another one and made the language shorter than either one of them was to start with. i .... c- \ve consolidated, and that is something that we did not foresee, bu t if we do this thing here now, there ain't no \vay \'/e can do it like you say because if they vote against one, they beat the whole thing anyhow, but if we do this thing like go Article by Article and Article I gets defeated, we could be in the awfullest mess in the world. For instance, if the gratuities was to be defeated, we would have no protection anywhere on that thing. It's just a matter of necessity now, and this is the only way we can do it. MR. TIDWELL: Al,in explanation of your thrust of what you said, that's what everybody tried to do. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I understand that. MR. TIDWELL: But everybody now that has been 73 struggling with this project for four or five years realizes that there is no way to take the present Constitution and compartmentalize it so that one Article stands by itself. You have to look by necessity at the whole Constitution. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I understand that. MR. TIDWELL: As one document, particularly Article III, which deals with the powers of the General Assembly, cuts across almost every other Article in the Constitution. There are some Articles that can stand by themselves, but there are others that can't, and that's why we're in the dilemma that '-Ie are today. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I understand that, but you have evidently missed my point. I say is there any way that we can preserve the individual vote, Article by Article, and if one falls, it all falls? GOV. BUSBEE: This does it. SEN. HOLLO\"lAY: No, it doesn't. MR. BOLTON: He's talking about let's vote on each one separately SBN. HOLLm'lAY: Sure. ;; HR. BOLTON: I think you can do that ler;ally. SEN. HOLLOWAY: Sure. And if one falls, it all ought to fall, but again it gives the people a choice in individual areas. HH. TIDWELL: There's a division of legal thinking of whether you can do just \'1hat you propose, 1\1. There then you do tie. The Constitution requires separate anendments to be submitted as separate, and then when you start tieing together, there is a question, are ".1 ou then sUbmitting them separately. Some feel, well, you are, and some feel you aren't, and there's not a real good practical solution to this other than to let them all go with one, and the only way to do that is to have'a new Constitution, and that has its drawbacks. SEN. HOLLOWAY: If there's no way to do it, then my argument is moot. GOV. 13USBEE: I think your point is well taken, 1\1, because it is something staff and counsel and all have been working on since we last met, and they've discussed it with me numerous times on every alternative, and this was discussed, but again you don't have a provision in there now ,, tel where you can consider two of them, and this tying one to the other is a dual consideration in the. minds of some. It's not in the minds of some. I just would hesitate to take that chance if we have that sharp a division among people on it, but I do think this, and I don't think it's as to this discussion to where you could accomplish what you're talking about. He definitely need to put in no\'1 what we're reconunenuing to the people. 'fhe provision that Charlie has written, a proposal for the ratification of two or more new Articles may be submitted as a single amendment; a proposal for the ratification of two or more new Articles with related changes within the Article or with related changes in one or more other Articles may be submitted as a single amendment. HR. 'fIDWELL: I have enough here if everybody wants to look at this. GOV. BUSBEE: But if you had that, you could do exactly what you want to do now. Charlie? I~P. MURPHY: Where are you going to put that in, HR. Tlm~ELL: 'l'hat ,wuld go at the end of Paragraph 1 of Article XII. JUDGE NICHOLS: It's amending XII? GOV. BUSBEE: Right. JUDGE NICHOLS: Uhich is necessary in order to do what you're doing? HR. Tlmml,L: Right. JUDGE CALHOUN: Hr. Chairman, in order to bring it to a head, I move that we proceed and move along the lines outlined by Mr. Harris in option five and also pr%se this amendment to the Constitution. GOV. BUSBEL: All right. Judcre Calhoun has ~oved we go with option five as outlined with Mr. Harris, and ,ve amend Article XII as I have just read and as it has been passed out to you. REP. SNOh': I second. 76 REP. MURPIiY: Second. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. Is there any discussion? MU. TIDWELL: Governor, this is just a technical change. If that is done, the staff will have to go into the present other Articles that you haven't amended and just make some date changes. GOV. BUSBEE: Right. HR. TImvELL: And technical changes, because ~ve' re going to have a new Constitution, and I think you ought to authorize the staff to do that and make no substantive changEos, but make changes in dates in preservation of present - . substantive provisions. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. SEN. IIOLLOHAY: Hay I address myself to this? I , want to know v.,hat ci1anges they make. ~,.' ? GOV. BUSBEE: Let me address what Al is talking about. SEN. HOLLOWAY: I think we ought to be appraised, substantive or not. GOV. BUSBEE: I'll entertain a motion that I think will protect what you're saying, a motion to authorize the staff to do this work, editorial work, to mail E:ach member of the Select Comm.ittee the corrected revision and that if there is any question or objection by any person on the Select Conunittee, then we'll call another Committee meeting. SEU. HOLLm'lAY: Hell, not only a copy of the final version. MR. BOLTON: Showing the changes. SEN. HOLLOI'1AY: ShovTing the changes. GOV. 13USBEE: Showing the changes. MR. BOLTON: If it's nothing but an "and" or a comma, I \lant to see it. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. That's understood, and I \lill entertain such a motion. SEN. HOLLOIvAY: Yes, sir. GOV. BUSBEE: Second? MR. BOLTON: I second. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. A motion has been made and sec~nded. Any discussion? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all those in favor say "aye." 'rhat was a mighty weak "aye." All in favor say "aye." (Ayes) II GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: All right. That's adopted. Then just point out any changes, if you will, on the face. All right. HR. HARRIS: fir. Chairman, the two other things I 78 would like for the Committee to give us permission after the legislative session is over, to come back to you and submit to you a list of names of persons who have served on these Article Committees, not all the Committees, hut persons from those cornmi ttees as a sort of an overview Committee \.,rhich could then take the final product as it came out of the General Assembly and go through it to make certain that no problems have been created as Q result of changes that might have taken place while it was in the General Assembly, look at Articles I through V and X or I, III, IV and V, but that's something that we would like to have the opportunity to do, is to give you a list of n~nes of people who have been actively working on these Articles so that we can have a little oversight afterwards. 1- rrhat's second, and the third thing is would the Committee consider usiny Mr. Reiner's office to generate a press release '. f in connection with the work that's been done reflecting the ..; 7 ~ '" reduction in size that's taken place in the six Articles, the amount of time that's been expended on it. Is this something the Committee would consider allowing to be done? REP. MURPHY: I would suggest that you have Mr. Reiner do it and submit a copy to the Senate office and submit a copy to the House Office, and both offices will send it out as well as the Governor's office. GOV. BUSBEE: That's fine. It needs to be promulgated 79 in some way. SEN. HOLLOWAY: That's what beat us two years ago. We didn't do that. GOV. BUSBEE: Right. Any objection? Do you have another point? REP. MURPHY: No, that's not \'lhat beat us two years ago. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Now, you've heard the recommendation Mr. Harris has made for the staff to do these things. Is there any objection? (No response) GOV. BUSBEE: If not, it stands approved. Sen. ;: Holloway? SEN. HOLLOWAY: Now, we're going to present this one package now as joint bills through the House and Senate? GOV. BUSBEE: This is the next thing we have on the thing. Mr. Speaker? REP. MURPHY: Senator, I've given that a lot of thought. I think it ought to be introduced in both Houses .J as early in the session as we can. I think both Houses ought to go ahead and take it up. If you pass it over to us, whatever our Cop~ittee comes out with, we'll probably just substitute it for yours, whatever the House does on it, and then the Conference Committee will get together and come back, and that's when the final decision will be made, but hopefully you will 1 80 II pass it on over to us since we're going to have to handle the budget first. GOV. BUSBEE: Let me ask you. ~'le' ve got both of you all here now. Could. it be agreed that whichever one -- I agree that it ought to be introduced in both Houses, but could we just agree that rather than having some pride of authorship there that whichever one -- we've done this on other hills that we've done this vlith. Hhichever one crosses the hall first, that will be the number that we go with in conference? REP. MURPHY: Yes, sir. 1J 1o0: Cl. '" ... a' GOV. BUSBEE: Is that all right? MR. MILLER: Sure. REP. MURPHY: We'll go ahead and have a Subcommittee! working by~that.t.i.rne. I GOV. BUSBEE: I understand the purpose. That would let both Houses, the House and the Senate, be working on it at the.same time, but we've gotten down to the point of this pride of authorship, and we've had this companion type legislation when it wasn't worked out ahead of time, but this is agreed to, whichever one passes will urge the conference committee and the presiding officers will urge the conference committee to use that as a vehicle. All right? , ) ii Now, any other points any member of the Select 24 Committee would like to bring up? Mr. Harris, do you have "I';'; anything for usi .' \ 81 MR. HARRIS: I need to see you and the Lieutenant i Governor and the Speaker for just a minute when we adjourn. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. MR. HARRIS: One other minor thing. I would like you had originally set a timetable for the Committees on VI through IX for '82. I would like for the Committee to consider setting a new timetable and ask those Article Committees to report back by December of '81. NOw, they may not be able to, but if they can, instead of stretching it out for two years, get as many as can report by December of '81 so that we can move fan-lard. HR. llIIJL: December of '80. MR. HARRIS: I mean December of '80. Excuse me. REP. HURPHY: I'd rather have December of '80 myself. MR. HARRIS: '80 now. GOV. BUSBEE: What Mr. Harris is recommending is that we ask the Article Committees to report back by December of this year. loiR. HARRIS: This year. GOV. BUSBEE: All right. Is there an objection? Is there a motion? I better get some motions. SEN. OVERBY: I move. GOV. BUSBEE: The motion made. Seconded? JUDGE DEEN: Seconded. GOV. BUSBEE: Any discussion? (No response) \': 82 GOV. BUSBEE: If not, all in favor say "aye." (Ayes) GOV. BUSBEE: All opposed? (NO response) GOV. BUSBEE: So moved. Is there anything that any member of the Select Committee has? Now, if not, we stand adjourned. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter was adjourned.) -000- C E R T I FIe ATE GEORGIA "L., CLARKE COUNTY l; I hereby certify that the foregoing transcript was taken down, as stated in the caption, and the statements and discussion were reduced to typewriting by me personally; that <: < the foregoing pages, I through 82, inclusive, represent a tr~e, correct and complete transcript of the evidence given upon said ~ '-: hearing. " This, the 12th day of January, 1980. 25 :; DONALD SAMUEL LEMMER (SEAL) ,r . ~~~~il'-" ,t' ';bii1, ":~~'"",: ~' ~(tO;"d~ , M i _ _ ~':\;~"1I'-,~~;''';''''l" , ' , k ' , - ----------------- INDEX Committee Meetings Held on Constitutional Revision Select Committee Meeting Held on Jan. 9, 1980 SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING, 1-9-80 Proceedings. pp. 3-5 PREAMBLE. pp. 41-42 ARTICLE I: BILL OF RIGHTS SECTION I: RIGHTS OF PERSONS Paragraphs I: Life, liberty, and property, and II: Protection to person and property; ~qual protection. pp. 42-55 (ERA discussed here) SECTION III: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraph I: Eminent domain. pp. 14-38 Paragraph II: Private ways. pp. 38-39 Paragraph III: Tidewater titles confirmed. p. 39 ARTICLE II: VOTING AND ELECTIONS SECTION II: GENERAL PROVISIONS Paragraphs II: Run-off election, and IV: Recall of public officials holding elective office. pp. 5-9 ARTICLE III: LEGISLATIVE BRANCH SECTION VI: EXERCISE OF POWERS Paragraph VI: Gratuities. pp. 55-63 SECTION X: RETIREMENT SYSTEMS. pp. 7-13 ARTICLE V: EXECUTIVE BRANCH SECTION I: ELECTION OF GOVERNOR AND LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR Paragraph III: Lieutenant Governor. p. 64 PAGE 1 2 3 STATE OF GEORGIA 4 SELECT COMMITTEE 5 TO 6 REVISE THE CONSTITUTION OF GEORGIA 7 8 9 10 Czl 11 i= ..'o".... ~ 12 ~ ~F~ ! 14 ~ '<"l :I: 15 01) Cl '":::> 16 .~.. Q Z - ~ '<"l: :t: 15 .:> Ca:I :::> 16 zlD Q z 17 a..: I call on Mr. Harris now for administrative matters. ~ 12 ~ MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, several persons have @ r i resigned from their respective committees, Mildred Burnett, ! 14 I- Wilson Danial and Anne Crichton, and there has been an ':~"z: 15 ~ indication that one other person will not be able to serve Cl e>: ;;;) 16 ~... but we have nothing official Q Z ~ 17 : GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That's on the articles committees? 18 MR. HARRIS: These are on the articles committees. .~} 19 Woodson Daniel on the local government committee, 20 and was there in his capacity as chairman of a committeeof 21 superior court clerks, and they would like to have Joe Mundy 22 who is the present clerk of the Clayton Superior Court 23 substituted for Mr. Daniel. 24 Mrs. Crichton was a member also of the Article IX 25 Local Government Committee, she was there in her capacity PAGE 4 as a representative of Georgia Municipal Association. She "~ :;.;, 2 is no longer mayor of Decatur, and they would like very much ;:~: I'~ i;,; 3 for the Select Committee to consider replacing her with Mr. 4 Bob Knox who is the mayor of Thomson, Georgia, and an attorney 5 Mr. Knox in hopeful anticipation that this would occur has 6 in fact been attending the meetings of the Article IX 7 committee and has been participating in those activities. 8 Mrs. Burnett was not a representative of a particula~ 9 organization, she was on the Finance Taxation Article, and 10 the staff is not making any recommendation with respect to "z 11 i= l..oI..I..: ~ 12 ~ ~r~ ! 14 ... ': 16 .~.. Q Z 17 : really needs the full committee. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I doubt that much could be done, Tom, between now and -- when's the election, August 5th, the primary? MR. MURPHY: They met last Thursday. Have we got any more meetings set, Mel? They met last-Thursday. MR. HILL: The full taxation article will be meeting in September. 18 MR. HARRIS: The full committee won't, but the 19 subcommittees will be meeting between now and August 1st. 20 MR. MURPHY: The subcommittee met on Thursday. 21 MR. HARRIS: We had a meeting of the full committee 22 and three subcommittee meetings following that. 23 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Why don't you check wi th him and 24 call me, and we'll get the Attorney and the Chief Justice 25 and-- PAGE 7 MR. MURPHY: As far as I'm concerned, I would 2 authorize you to fill it myself. 3 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We can do it by phone. 4 MR. MURPHY: It suits me for you to fill it. 5 I move we fill it. 6 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All right. Any obj ect ion? 7 MR.. MURPHY: If Judge Meade will give us his vote, 8 he's got the authority of the rest of us. 9. You've got all of our authority just to fill it. 10 \II Z 11 t; ..o.... ~ 12 ~ @)r~ 14 ~ !;; <:Cr 15 ~ \II - I- '" :I: 15 ~ Cl "~ 16 z.I.I.I Q Z " 17 III MR. TIDWELL: You selected your own committee, and the Select Committee had nothing to do with that at that time. Arthur appointed his, you appointed yours, and so it -- GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me ask the Select Committee, is there any objection Wayne calls the new dean at the Emory Law School and sees if he has any feeling about it, if he has 18 any objection to Patterson continuing, or what his desires y 19 are, and then that he be authorized to make the appointment 20 of the representative from Emory, and also you call Mercer 21 and make an appointment from there. 22 MR. HOLLOWAY: I think you should have the power to 23 enlarge the committee if both of them wanted to serve. 24 MR. SNOW: I think it would be good since the dean 25 is from out of state and he isn't familiar with what we have ------------,----- PAGE 10 been doing . .'?. 2 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Any objection to leaving that ;;:,1 '.l; 3 subject to the articles committee chairmen? 4 If not, then -- 5 All right. Do you want to take up your next 6 subject? 7 MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe I need to 8 waste a whole lot of words on that. I believe everyone pretty 9 well knows what occurred. 10 ,. " " zCI 11 i= ..'0".... ~/~ @~12 '" 14 ! I- VI :r 15 ~ CI '"::l 16 .zC.D. az 17 '"CD The effort sank in the last day or two of the session of 1980, possibly under the weight of the substantial number of amendments that were added, and particularly one that limited the size of the House to 120 and the size of the Senate to 40. That pretty much is the icing on the cake, Therefore, nothing was done except that there will be on the ballot in November thirteen general amendments and 128 local 18 amendments to be considered in various jurisdictions by the 19 voters, which to me simply reinforces the need for some kind 20 of flexible document for Georgia to operate under, 21 MR. MURPHY: All I can say about that is that the 22 Lieutenant Governor now has exercised an awful lot of -- 23 A MEMBER: Restraint. 24 MR. MURPHY: I wouldn't say restraint, something 25 that -- PAGE 11 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: On the recommended course for the ., " ,'. 2 Select Committee which the staff has prepared and Charlie is :.:'. 3 passing out now, how do you want to proceed with it. Robin? 4 MR. HARRIS; Well, assuming that the Select 5 Committee feels that constitutional revision should go on. 6 it appears to us that there is a definite need in the 7 consideration of the constitution for the Governor, the 8 Lieutenant Governor and the Speaker to be active, .more active 9 as they can be in the pursuit of that activity in a regular 10 session. Just the duties of all three during a regular .J .z" 11 I0c..r-.: session are just eno~ous. (@ @)~ F12~cr: GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Let me interrupt you. I have spoken to the Speaker and the Lieutenant Governor several 14 ~ months ago about -- we're going to have to have a special I'" :r:: 15 .:. session for reapportionment next year, either late summer "cr: .;:) 16 zIII or fall of next year, and it was about going on and having Q 17 Zcr: III the call include a proposed constitution that we come up 18 with in the Select Committee after they complete all the 19 articles we go through here. Then we would have reapportion- 20 ment and this, and I think there would be a lot more time 21 for the legislature to concentrate on doing this. 22 Do you want to go through what the schedule will be? 23 MR. HARRIS: The 24 MR. MURPHY: Let me ask a question. Didn't we put 25 something on the ballot about this change, the way we could PAGE 12 approve these articles this year? ....;...:~ 2 MR. SNOW: We put it on there. It did not pass in i', :~'~t 3 the Senate. 4 MR. MURPHY: The senate didn't pass it. 5 MR. SNOW: It was a germane problem, but it was 6 passed, the question was going to be raised to challenge the 7 germaneness of it is what you advised me of. 8 MR. HARRIS: The article committees on VI, VII, VIII 9 and IX we have asked to proceed with their work and report to 10 the Select Committee by December 1, 1980. Following that, it ~; 1:1 Z 11 j: ".0...".. would seem to me the Select Committee would need to recon- ~@r~ ~12 "" sider t~e original six articles, I, II, III, IV, V and X, to determine what form we would like those submitted in together ! 14 ... with the new Articles XI, VII, VIII and IX, package them all ':<"rl 15 .:l up in a document, consider filing it in the 1981 General 1:1 :":"> 16 ...zIII Assembly not with any anticipation of activity, and then also Q Z ~ ll< ~ 16 ~ ~z - I- OIl :r 15 .:l c.:l '";;) 16 ...zIII 0z 17 '"III you've got a good representation. I don'tthink it would be very much outside MR. g{OW: About 35 in the Hous e . MR. HOLLOWAY: Are you talking about -- which judi comnittee now? MR. MURPHY: That would be up to you all as far as I'm concerned. Both of them if you want to. MR. SNOW: I think if you're going to have all 18 members of one, you ought to have both of them. 19 LT, GOVERNOR MILLER: I think you ought to have both 20 of them. That's the problem we got into in the Senate before, 21 I mean the trouble that we got into with the Senate before, 22 we had some of the special judi that wanted to do something 23 different than the way the judi wanted to. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: We've got a very limited number on 25 those two committees anyway. 1 PAGE 17 LT. GOVERNOR MILLER: We're just talking about ,. :> [;:; 2 fifteen folks in the Senate. 3 MR. UNDERCOFFER: I'm inclined to agree with the 4 Speaker and the Lieutenant Governor. You could have a 5 majority of the members from the House and Senate, if you 6 don't have some approval from the executive branch and the 7 judiciary branch, or if you do have approval I think it 8 enhances the chan~es of passing it. 9 MR. HOLLOWAY: I have no objections. 10 MR. MURPHY: Senator, whether it's the members of '.~~ ."z 11 i= the House and Senate Committee, we hear from the Chief .'0.". 12 u'" ~@r u:: j: .z.. U VI 14 I >- I- VI :r 15 oll Justice and the Attorney General, and we have an understanding of what their feelings are about these -- MR. HOLLOWAY: Let me ask you this in procedure. After it comes out of this committee, what does it do then, ..":':"> 16 .z.. go to the judi committees of both houses? Q ..Z 17 '" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that you're talking about 18 now, we woul"d go on and introduce this in this next session 19 and, of course, we're not going to take action on it in the :;; 20 next session, but then that would give a starting document 21 for this committee to take up, then we would have a joint 22 resolution in the next session doing what we are talking 23 about doing. 24 MR. MURPHY: I would agree with the Senator, and I 25 would hope the Lieutenant Governor would do the same. I PAGE 18 would request our judiciary committee to meet shortly after 2 we adjourn and start over this thing at which time I would 3 expect to meet with them where I might be able to explain 4 some of the things that this committee has done that might 5 differ from what Mr. Snow's feelings were because he and I 6 had quite some differences. 7 MR. SNOW: But you might come around by that time. 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: The document that we produce has to 9 officially go through both judi committees of House and 10 ..I:l Z 11 i= ~ oG..o. i12 8Jr~ ! 14 ~ '<"{ :x: ..15 .:J I:l :) 16 .~.. I:l Z <{ 17 : Senate before it can get to the floor. MR. MURPHY: Your people should already have been ready at the time the special session, our people could be ready, we'll just get it to the floor right quickly and get it done, what I'm trying to say, and get the conference committee to get to where we can work out our differences in a reasonable frame of time. That's what I'm shooting for . I don't want to spend the summer up here in a special session 18 myself. 19 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Just to put this in capsule where 20 we have a motion, I think the discussion is that we do two 21 things. One is we go on and prepare, that is the Select 22 Committee, a bill or resolution rather for submission to the 23 General Assembly with the idea that no action will be taken 24 on it. Then if we pass a joint resolution, the legislature 25 passes a joint resolution it would be for the Select PAGE 19 Committee and both the judiciary committee of the House and ~ .' ~:':~ 2 Senate to serve as 3 MR. MURPHY: I don't think we really ought to have 4 all the committees, because if you start all his committee 5 and all my special judiciary committee you're talking about 6 54. 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: How many are we talking about? 8 That's wh~t I want to know. 9 MR. MURPHY: I'm talking about if you want fifteen ,. '~' --- 10 from the Senate, or sixteen, fifteen from -- I'm talking about Czl 11 j: evenly dividing it. Ill: ...0 0.. 9 r l12 Ill: GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Without putting final numbers, the sense of the motion is we have equal representation of ! 14 the House and Senate in the neighborhood of about fifteen ~ '<"l: J: 15 otI subject to whatever the Lieutenant Governor and the Speaker CI Ill: ::> 16 lD .Z.. agree to? 0 Z 16 .~.. Q 17 gZ this, to add that to the special session call. I think we're going to speak at the Legislative Service Committee -- the Code Revision Committee has already met on it, and it's not going to be any changes in the law, it's just getting those dead statutes out, but it's something that really ought to be introduced in the '80 session and acted on at the special session . GOVERNOR BUSBEE: You mean '81 session? 18 MR. MURPHY: '81 session, and acted on at the 19 special session. 20 Do you agree with that, Mr. Snow? 21 MR. SNOW: Yes, sir. I don'tKlow if we could have 22 it ready to introduce in the '81 session. 23 MR. MURPHY: What we're running into, Governor, 24 we're running into a time frame that's going to cost us a 25 bunch of extra money to get the folks in the Mickey Mouse PAGE 22 or whatever -- I always called it the Michi, they call it ":~ 2 the Mickey for some reason, I don't know what the name of it :;1 :,"?:. 3 is, but we really need to get it done in that special 4 session, it shouldn't take a lot of time. 5 MR. SNOW: What we're up against, the bill itself 6 will be on everybody's desk will probably be about three feet 7 tall. 8 MR. MURPHY: What we're going to do is introduce it 9 and let everybody have a look at it where they can take it 10 home to their lawyers, their judges can look at and see the ~: 11 changes, and surely in the '81 session it should be ready just to go through is what we're talking about. MR. SNOW: Everybody will have it for several weeks. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that's an ideal way to proceed. MR, HOLLOWAY: I do too. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: We've got a lot of money spent on 18 that, and that's one of the great needs we have. 19 MR. MURPHY: We can proceed on the theory you will W put it in the call? ,21 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. , 22 MR. HOLLOWAY: Governor, have you given any thought 23 to the time of the special session? 24 MR. MURPHY: I made one request 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: I know we've got to worry about PAGE 23 turnaround time with the AG's office, and has anybody done d ~:~ 2 any research on how many days we can anticipate getting that ~;:.. 3 document up to Washington and getting it back approved or 4 disapproved, because we've got to take our action in the '81 5 or '82 legislature. 6 MR. MURPHY: They've got ninety days, Senator, to 7 say yes or no to us is my understanding of the law. 8 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: That should not present any 9 problem, then, because I don't anticipate we'll be -- -,,;. ;(~ 10 MR. MURPHY: September will 'be a good month, :.~ "Z 11 i= 0~ ...... especially if the Braves have got a home stand. 12 ~ MR. SNOW: Governor, we would not be in a position @JFI to have the code ready before September the 1st, that is the 14 ~ I- date that we are striving for right now in code revision, '<"Cl J: 15 .:> and that's cutting it short . "~ ;;) ... 16 zIII MR. HOLLOWAY: That's an awfully bad way to combine Q Z Ia!:I ;;) 16 Iz..I.I III 17 aZ: III Of course, the main reason for the special session is reapportionment, these other things are secondary, but in any event sixty days we figure we can get these in the middle of August or the first part of September, whenever we have an opportunity we can get together and figure out some firm date so we can have it in this contract, the code revision. GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I want to do this, I want to confer with you before we sign it because we've got a lot of 18 other things that have to be coordinated with that. 19 MR. HILL: Governor, should we proceed with 20 constitutional revision on'the assumption we're going to have 21 one document and not separate articles to be presented? 22 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think that's the bnly way we 23 can proceed. We're proceeding on one article is what we're 24 presuming, because this did not pass the Senate, what we had 25 proposed. PAGE 25 MR. SNOW: As it is, the only alternative would be 2 tocvote on every each article separately, which there will be 3 a lot of other things that will be going into other articles 4 and transposed, so it would have te be one article. 5 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: Right. 6 Anything else? 7 MR. TIDWELL: Governor, I don't think you ever got 8 a vote on this entire proposal. I don't know whether one is 9 necessary. You've got an individual vote on the overview 10 committee, but is it the sense of the Select ~mmittee that .11 "z j: ~ that's the way you want to proceed with those eleven items? 0 1M - @@r~ ~12 ~ GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think everything on there, we can just adopt this entire report. We have covered most of ! 14 I- it. '" % 15 ~ Do you want to make amotion? "~ ;> 16 zIII 1M 1:1 MR. BOLTON: I move we approve it. Z 17 ~ '" GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion made is the recommended 18 course of action of the Select Committee follow the complete 19 constitutional revision project which consists of eleven -.... 20 things we have discussed be adopted . 21 Is there a second to the motion? 22 MR. MURPHY: With the revisions where we changed 23 the committee and all that sort of stuff? 24 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: I think it's completely consistent 25 with the prior motion. PAGE 26 All right. Second? 2 MR. SNOW: Seconded. 3 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: The motion is made and seconded. 4 Is there any further discussion? 5 If not, all those in favor say aye. 6 (Ayes, ) 7 GOVERNOR BUSBEE: All opposed. 8 All right. Anything else? 9 I thank all of you for being here. 10 ';~., zCI 11 j: 0.'.".... ~. -IJ5 @~ 12 '" I i= . !v> 14 vl>