- Collection:
- Veterans History Project: Oral History Interviews
- Title:
- Oral history interview of William L. Pulgram
- Creator:
- Lowance, David
Pulgram, William L. (William Leopold), 1921- - Date of Original:
- 2004-08-09
- Subject:
- World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Lend-lease operations (1941-1945)
Boy Scouts--Austria
Pulgram, Sigmund
Pulgram, Gisele
Pulgram, Ernst
Pulgram, Lili
Marks, Morris
Society of Friends
Lingfield (Concentration camp)
Samaria (Steamship : 1922-1956)
Theresienstadt (Concentration camp)
Auschwitz (Concentration camp)
Nazi Party
Gestapo
Kristallnacht
blitz
London Underground
blackout - Location:
- Austria, Vienna, Vienna, 48.20849, 16.37208
Canada, Nova Scotia, Halifax, 44.6486237, -63.5859487
United Kingdom, England, Liverpool, 53.408371, -2.991573
United Kingdom, England, London, 51.50853, -0.12574
United Kingdom, England, Manchester, 53.4794892, -2.2451148
United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018
United States, Georgia, Atlanta Metropolitan Area, 33.8498, 84.4383
United States, Georgia, Floyd County, Rome, 34.25704, -85.16467
United States, Georgia, Fulton County, Fort McPherson, 33.70733, -84.43354
United States, New York, New York County, New York, 40.7142691, -74.0059729 - Medium:
- video recordings (physical artifacts)
mini-dv - Type:
- Moving Image
- Format:
- video/quicktime
- Description:
- In this interview, William Leopold "Bill" Pulgram describes his experiences in the U.S. Army during World War II. He recalls his youth, experiences with anti-Semitism, and his escape to England. He recounts his time as an apprentice, an internee, and his journey to North America. He discusses his attempts to join the U.S. military. He recalls how he wanted to go to war because he was "fighting mad" and wanted to remove the "horror of the regime" in Germany. He describes his post-war career and education. He relates the deaths of his sister and parents in concentration camps.
Bill Pulgram was in the U.S. Army during World War II.
William Pulgrum Veterans History Project Atlanta History Center With Dr. David Lowance August 9, 2004 [Tape 1, Side A] Interviewer: We're at the Atlanta History Center on August the ninth, 2004, as part of the World War Two veterans project for the Library of Congress. This afternoon we're interviewing Mr. William Pulgrum. He's now eighty-three years old. He has an interesting history of his life to tell. We're delighted to have him here in the history center with us today. Bill, thanks so much for being with us. What I want you to do, if you would, for the audience the audience that's gonna see this in the years to come and probably [inaudible] lots of people over the years is tell us a little bit about your background, where you were born, where you grew up, want happened to you growing up and [inaudible]. Pulgrum: All right. I was born on January first, 1921, in Vienna, Austria. We were a close family and we were comfortable and lived a happy life. I did all the things that a boy does [inaudible] ages, going to school, went to [inaudible] and so forth [inaudible]. We were living comfortably. We were not wealthy, but we were comfortable. We were comfortably situated. And it was very badly interrupted, very sadly interrupted by the taking over of Austria by Germany in 1938, when Hitler's troops marched in from Germany and disrupted our life very badly. I grew up as the son of a [inaudible] with mixed backgrounds. Both my father and my mother both were…[inaudible] Jews and non-Jews. And we didn't have any particular…we had no religious affiliation, I mean, per se. And we never considered ourselves Christians or Jews or whatever. We were just there. [inaudible] normal life. And that was certainly changed after Hitler came over because [inaudible] you were considered and called a Jew, not by religion but by racial background. And all that was necessary was to have one grandmother that was Jewish and that made you called Jewish. So I was…all of us became Jews even though, as I say, we didn't particularly affiliated with any particular race or any religion. So, the take over of the Austria [inaudible] marched into Germany without resistance because the Austrian-Germans were not all that much against Nazis at that time, unfortunately. Marched in and changed our life. One of the first things that happened, of course, that all of the stores…I remember [inaudible] all of a sudden the grocery stores will all empty of food because the German soldiers had taken everything out of there and shipped it back to Germany because the German people themselves didn't have enough to eat. And then there were all these placards put on near the stores that were owned by so-called Jews, whether they were Jewish religion or not. Big signs [inaudible] saying, “Jew [inaudible]” and “Jews and dogs not allowed” and all those kinds of things. Well, it was just a great big shock to us all. But evidently, this was not unexpected by the Austrian people because the day after Hitler arrived, all the flags came out and they were all swastika flags. I don't know [inaudible] because the Nazi party was actually illegal in Austria before Hitler took over. So was the Communist party. The only two parties that I recall that were accepted and legal were the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists, they called themselves. One was a [inaudible] not communist. There were communists too, but they were outlawed. And the other was an ultra-conservative group, which was [inaudible]. But a lot of those people on the right, from the Christian Socialists, as they called themselves, were actually illegal members of the Nazi party, which we didn't…which I didn't know and not many people knew. Because after Hitler took over, all these people came up with their little emblem on their lapel, which indicated that they had been illegal members of the Nazi party before Hitler took over. And all the arm bands came out and all the flags [inaudible]. It was quite obvious that this was a victory they had long [inaudible]. This was nothing new. And within days after Hitler took over, all the SS and the SI was quickly organized. This was the…what did they call…storm…storm something. SI, the brown shirts and the SS had the black shirts. The SS was a little higher education level than the brown shirt people. Am I supposed to stop here? Interviewer: [technical talk] Pulgrum: Okay. Well anyhow, so things got kind of rough and [inaudible] we didn't know exactly what we could expect. But the handwriting was on the wall, that we were not welcome anymore. Leave quote Jews, you're not welcome anymore. And soon after, it was March when Hitler came over and I think it was in late April…and I was going to school. I was attending the [inaudible Austrian word] at that time. I hadn't finished high school. I was seventeen years old at the time. One day, all of a sudden my friends at school changed attitude towards me because I didn't wear any emblem of a swastika because I was not eligible to be a Nazi member. [inaudible] And I'm afraid most of them were. Because most Austrians frankly were really sympathetic toward the Nazis and the Nazi regime. They were also…there was a great deal of anti-Semitism, which I wasn't too much aware of before [inaudible] came out. And all of a sudden, some of the boys and girls who I thought were friends of mine turned out to be not friends anymore. And one day in April or the beginning of May, I was called to the director's office, the school's headmaster or whatever you want to call it, and evidently he had called a lot of people, a lot of students from the various grades. There were only three…in my grade I think it three to four people who were called Jews, not Arian. And we were all called into the headmaster's office. And it was about 10:30 or 11 o'clock in the morning. And he said, “Well, I would like for you people to go home. You can't stay here anymore. And you'll be reassigned to another school.” This was a great shock to all of us because we thought we were there. We were part of the student body. And we said, “Okay, well then we won't come back tomorrow.” He said, “No, no. I want you to go home right now.” And he was really…he didn't seemed to be [inaudible] at all. He seemed to be trying to be helpful. And we said, “Well, why now?” He said, “Well, I think there my be an unrest after school.” Well, it turned out, I found out later, that there had been a gang of students that had promised to beat us all up after school was out. So the headmaster told us to go on home. We were excused from any further studies. [inaudible] some of the teachers had said goodbye and they didn't know what was going on. They didn't even know that I was quote not one of those people who had to leave. Anyhow, I went home and we were assigned to another school where I finished the year. And that was [inaudible] a very unhappy experience for me because I thought I belonged somewhere and no longer did I belong somewhere. And the same thing was true for my brother who was finishing university in [inaudible]. He had written his dissertation in linguistics and all the written work was done by he not permitted to take the final exam. His work [inaudible]. So he was kicked out, too. Plus, many of the teachers and professors were kicked out. A lot of doctors were not allowed to practice anymore. Lawyers were not allowed to practice anymore. And my father was not permitted to continue working. So, it was really a desperate time and we really didn't know what to do. We were all talking about, “Well, we have to leave. We have to leave. But where do we go?” My father was sixty something years old and really was not in a position to start all over again. [inaudible] no one was allowed to take anything out with them. So it was just a matter of [inaudible] what to do and what would come next. Interviewer: Were you scared or baffled by this? Pulgrum: I was scared and baffled both. I was baffled by all that but, of course, I finally accepted the fact that this is what was happening. But I was also scared. I remember looking out my window, over on the left side in the next block, next to the building, it was an assembly place for the brown shirts, the [inaudible], the SA troops. And they were a rowdy bunch. They were fairly rowdy people. And you could never…I was afraid to walk out of the house because they could attack me [inaudible] for no reason whatsoever. It was just dangerous to be out on the street. I recall passing by one one time. Before Hitler came, there were some patriotic people in Austria with written slogans on the street. I've forgotten what they were, but they [inaudible] paint and what they did is collect a whole bunch of quote Jews, put them on the street with brushes to scrub the [inaudible]. And while these older people, and most of them were old people, scrubbing the street, they would throw water with lye in it so [inaudible] burn their hands and their knees and all that. So these were the things that were going on. People…I mean, there were reports of people getting beat up and you couldn't go out at night anymore and it was just dangerous. It was just…and you were afraid to open the door as to who might be there. You were afraid when you heard knocking on your door because you never could tell whether that would be the Gestapo or something coming to get you and haul you away for no good reason whatsoever other than cause you were a Jew. And I belonged, if you remember I told you before, I belonged to a Boy Scout troop and we continued to meet and it didn't seem to matter for those boys what you were, whether you were a Nazi or not. As a matter of fact, they were quite sympathetic because we, a few of us who were Jews, talked about having to leave or leaving, going somewhere else. And I was going to one of those meeting one day and about eight o'clock or nine o'clock the meeting broke up and a friend of mine and I were walking home. He had a bicycle. I didn't have my bicycle with me. My bicycle had been stolen, as a matter of fact. There was no recourse. I couldn't go to the police and ask them to look for it because I didn't have any rights. I had no rights to get anything done by the police. So, my bicycle was gone. He still had his bicycle and we were walking down the street and little did I remember, little did I…I wasn't aware that we were about to pass the Gestapo headquarters, which was not far from where we lived. Between [inaudible] where we lived and between the place where this meeting was going on. And we must have been within a half a block of the Gestapo headquarters, which used to be a big hotel which they had taken over. Two men came out and arrested us and took us in. I said, “Well, this is the end.” Of course, I was scared. I was seventeen years old. I didn't know what to do. And he separated us immediately and I can't even remember who the other boy was and I don't know what happened to him, I'm ashamed to say. But I don't remember what happened to him. Anyhow, I was put up against the wall. I had to stand up straight, facing the wall, right in front of them. Stand at attention, stand [inaudible]. Well you can't do that. It's a wall. You get kind of dizzy, even though I closed my eyes. Still it was kind of tough. So I would move around and every time I would move, somebody would punch me and hit me. Well, not seriously injured, not seriously injure me. I don't know how long I had to stand there. It was dark. It was sort of twilight. It was dark. But it kept on and on. And then it got dark. It was in the summer, so the light was quite late. I mean the sun set quite late [inaudible] so when I was walking home it was still daylight [inaudible]. But inside the building it was dark. So then I was taken to a room, a dark room and there was a big light shining on me. Sort of an interrogation kind of a thing. And these other guys were sitting around. There was three of them. Three or four were sitting around there. So [inaudible] asking me where I was. “Okay, I was at this Boy Scout meeting.” “Oh, no. You weren't at any Boy Scout meeting. You were at a Communist meeting.” I said, “No, I wasn't at a Communist meeting.” And, “Who's this Communist leader?” and all these kind of questions were going on. And every time I couldn't answer their questions to their satisfaction, they would guarantee that I would go to a concentration camp. I mean immediately. So there was nothing I could do because I really had nothing to tell them. There was absolutely nothing that I could tell them other than what I did tell them. And I resolved that this was probably the last time that I'd have seen my parents, that I'd seen any of my family. That I would indeed end up in a concentration camp, which many other people had already been arrested and sent off to Dachau [inaudible]. And then, I think, I think…I'm not sure I remember. Prior to that, they had taken my [inaudible] identification card, which was from my school identification card. And on that identification card was a photograph of me. And the photograph of me was with leather shorts, which I wore in the wintertime and the green little jackets with the green trim. [inaudible] I mean the Austrian National garb basically. And one of these people there was looking at this thing. And he said…he asked me…what did I say? He said, “[inaudible] you aren't supposed to wear this because you're not Austrian, you're a Jew.” I said, “Sorry, I didn't know that.” And I wasn't wearing that then because it was summer. I mean, in the summertime, when did you wear a jacket and these leather shorts. You wore other shorts. So [inaudible]. “Well, where are these clothes?” And I said, “Oh, these leather pants I gave to a friend of mine.” I lied. I was flustered. I didn't know what to say. I told him I'd given them to an Arian friend of mine. And he said, “Who is that?” I said it was Fritz Krimer [phonetic], one of the Boy Scout people who [inaudible]. “So you give then to [inaudible]?” I said, “Yes, [inaudible].” He said, “What about the jacket?” I said, “The jacket I have at home.” He said, “Ah ha!” So I thought they would go to my house and get the jacket or something like that [inaudible] after they put me in jail. But I don't know exact…I don't remember exactly all the conversation that went on, but in the end they let go. And I had to promise [inaudible] to put that jacket in a box, fold it up in some nice paper and bring it the next day and meet one of these guys on the corner, just about a half a block away from the Gestapo headquarters. So anyway, that guy wanted my jacket. And that's the reason. It was amazing. These little people. They were nothing. Just [inaudible] this kind of power. And they let me go. That was about ten thirty or eleven o'clock or something. I'd been there for three hours or something. And when I got home, my parents were beside themselves. They didn't know what had happened to me because they expected me home earlier and they were certainly glad to see me. And my brother was at home, too. And I told what had happened. And I told them that I had told this lie about these pants and giving them to my friend, Fritz Krimer. [inaudible] “What are we gonna do?” Everybody was [inaudible] very excited about it and worried about it. So the next morning, my brother took those leather pants that I had, early in the morning and took them to Fritz Krimer's house, which was not too far away, about a fifty minute walk. Fritz Krimer was not at home. He was out in the country. He had not been at that meeting before. [inaudible] and we gave them to his mother. My brother gave these pants to his mother. He said, “If anybody asks, tell them that you have these. That Fritz had had these.” So in the evening, that evening, I took the jacket and had to go to this place and give this man the jacket and my father was a couple blocks behind me, watching this. There's nothing he could do about it, because [inaudible] I mean, they would have arrested him. So, I gave this man this jacket and he took off. And I [inaudible] about my way and nothing happened. The next morning, Fritz Krimer, the boy I gave these pants to, his mother called us and said the Gestapo had been there to check if indeed I had given those pants. It was so ridiculous. Such a little thing of these little people operating, how vicious. Perfectly vicious people. So that's the narrow escape sort of thing. So from then on, I was particularly careful as to where I walked and when I went out and when I didn't [inaudible]. I had strange telephone calls that told me to come downstairs, come downstairs so we can beat you up or something like that. I was shocked. I didn't even tell my parents about that because they were worried enough. But those were the kinds of things that you just never knew what was gonna happen. And then I was…my brother left. He enrolled in the University of Perusia [phonetic] in Italy. So he went by train to Munich and flew from there to Italy. He had an exit permit to go. And the Kristallnacht came along, [inaudible] the night in November [9, 1938], the famous night that [inaudible]. Jewish man had killed one of the Nazi people in Paris the day before and supposedly as a revenge or something, they were gonna just kill a lot of other people. And that prompted Kristallnacht, crystal night, where they broke all the glass and all [inaudible]. And arrested a lot of people and they disappeared. When people were arrested, you generally never heard of them again. That's all there was to it. And that happened to a good many people and a good many of our acquaintances, one of my uncles, too. But with Kristallnacht all hell broke loose. It was just [inaudible] store windows of Jewish shops were broken and hordes of people were roaming the street and they were arresting people all over the place and taking them away. And we were at home, shaking in our boots. And [inaudible] intuition somehow, to do something unusual. Previous to that, about six months before, I had a rash on my legs. It must have been just dry skin, but I'm not sure what. But it was a rash and it hurt and it started bleeding. And my doctor gave me some salve and bandage to put on and keep my foot bandaged. But that had [inaudible] that was okay. But that evening, I bandaged my foot. I don't know why because it was just [inaudible]. I put this bandage on. And my father saw it and said, “Is your foot bothering you?” I said, “No, no. I just want a bandage.” And I went to bed. And there was much noise during the night. About seven o'clock in the morning, I hear…I was in my bed. I was still in bed. I hear my father…I heard a knocking on the door and my father speaking very…[inaudible] seemed very mildly to these people who were out there. And these people were asking for me. My father…I heard my father say, “He's sick in bed.” And they said, “What's the matter with him?” My father said, “He has a bad foot,” because he remembered I bandaged my foot. They said, “Why we get him anyways.” So in these people come into my room and I was still in bed. One was a Gestapo man with a black long coat in civilian clothes and the other man was a German soldier, German army with steel helmet and the gun and the rifle and all that sort of thing. And the Gestapo man said, “What are you doing in bed, lazy Jew? You're still in bed at morning.” Stuff like that. And I said, “Well, I've got a bad foot. This is why I'm in bed.” “Well, [inaudible] look at you. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on, get up and let's go.” So I pulled my blanket away and showed them my foot which I had bandaged. Well, for some unknown reason they left [inaudible]. It was just one of those things that I didn't expect. I expected to get up and go with them. They didn't take my father because my father was over sixty years old and had served in the Austrian army in World War One and had some medals, which he little miniatures of. That was a good thing to do, because that saved you a little bit. He was a veteran of the First World War and served in the First World War. So they were a little bit leaner…I don't mean… Interviewer: More lenient. Pulgrum: More lenient. And also, when you were older. And so, they didn't take my father and they didn't take me, which was just a miracle or else, maybe, I would be gone. Probably, I don't know where. [inaudible] So, that certainly showed us something had to be done. But we were not well connected. We were just average at the time. We didn't have any anybody. One of my uncles was an architect and he had left and he had come to this country at that point [inaudible]. But a friend of mine, his mother was a Quaker [inaudible] and she had been at Quaker meetings. And the Quakers were active in assisting people to get out. So the Quakers got him a so-called training visa, or a learner's permit, an apprentice permit to go to England to learn a trade. Well, [inaudible name] was a colleague of mine in school. But he was given…he found a family in England who would take him in as an apprentice. And this was a baker. The family in England were bakers. So he was going to go over there and become a baker. And he, in turn, when that happened, I also went to the Quakers and applied. Well, I got a [inaudible] and he left and went to Manchester and he wrote me from Manchester that he had found another family that would take me. So through the Quakers, I was given a permit to go to England and become a tailor, because they were all trades [inaudible]. So that's how I left Austria. And I left it legally. I didn't have to sneak across the border, anything like that. So I feel that I was very fortunate that I was able to go. Unfortunately, my parents were not that fortunate. We all had…I had applied for…to come to America you had to have…you had to apply to become an immigrant and you were given a certain number. Thousands of people were applying at that time. And you were given numbers consecutively and you had to wait until your number came up. In addition to that, you had to have an affidavit by somebody here in this country who would vouch for you, who would say that they would take care of you, offer you financial means. If you came that you wouldn't be a burden to the country. So I applied and unfortunately I did not apply for my parents at the same time. I should have. And my father really was [inaudible]. I mean, he didn't know what to do. And my mother either. And my sister. But I did get an application for them a little later and submitted it in their names to the American embassy [inaudible]. There were lines outside waiting for people to go in and [inaudible] submit these applications, which I did. So, while I was in England, so how did they live? My parents and my sister were still in Vienna. Then the war broke out, the British war broke out in [inaudible]. When Germany attacked Poland, Britain [inaudible] war. But not the U.S. And I was in England then. And watching the store for these people and living in their house. After the war broke out with…England went to war. Then the British, of course, also restricted my movements, because I was an enemy alien. I was Austrian. So we lived out in the suburbs, where I lived, it was in the suburbs and there was a little police station close by. And one of the detectives there was assigned to watch me. But we became pretty good friends. The detective knew me and I knew him. And so I came [inaudible] a certain time. So I was restricted in my movements in England after the war broke out. But the war went on and then Dunkirk came along where the British lost…when Europe was lost to Hitler. And after the evacuation from Dunkirk, after the troops all came back from Dunkirk to England, the British were afraid, of course, of anything [inaudible]. So after Dunkirk, I mean [inaudible] soldiers came back from Dunkirk [inaudible] guns. I saw them marching around, I mean, with the rifles [inaudible] close order drill. [inaudible] So the English became so worried that about these enemy aliens like me, living in their country, of being betrayed. So one day, there was a telephone call and the man I was living with answered the phone [inaudible] I was ready to go to work with him. The man was driving to work and I was going to go with him. And after the telephone call, he said, “No, you better stay here because the detective wants to see you.” So I said, “What's the matter?” He said, “I don't know but you can come to the store later.” So the detective came and said, “I'm sorry [inaudible]. I've got to arrest you. Pack a bag and come with me.” So I packed my bag and I went with him and I went to the police station. From the police station I went down to headquarters in one of the black [inaudible] cars. And there were all kinds of people assembled there. And the next thing I knew, they said we were being interred. We were put in prison. [inaudible]. So we were shipped out to a little mill, an old dilapidated cotton mill [inaudible]. And we were taken there and they said, “This is going to be your internment camp.” There were barbed wire fences around and soldiers and dogs and everything. So this was our…this was gonna be [inaudible] camp. And the twenty or thirty of us were the first ones there. But [inaudible] hundreds of people arrived, old and young and in between. And when I arrived they had given me a sort of mattress filled with straw to go on the floor. It was clean. Something to sleep on. And the next thing they did, they put us to work digging a ditch because there was no plumbing there. So that was going to be our latrine. [inaudible sentence] And all these people came and some of them were quite old, some of these people. So I gave one of the old men my…they were all men. I gave him my mattress. I just got some straw. And I was at that place for about three weeks or so. And then they shipped me out to another camp in Middleton [inaudible]. That was a pet [phonetic] camp. It was muddy as all get out. And I remember there was just a big, old wire fence between us and the prisoners of war. They had prisoners of war, Germans from the war, next to us. We were separated from them. And about that time, about a couple months later, eventually my visa for American came. My brother was here at the time and had arranged, actually [inaudible] for me. My number was up. So I was able…so fortunately people came to the address where I used to live with the people and they [inaudible], “This fella that you've got in an interment camp now is ready to get a visa to go to the United States.” So they took me out of that camp, the authorities, and shipped me to a camp near London, so I could get to the embassy. And in London, the camp was in Winfield and that was a racetrack and it was an internment camp. There was a lot of other people there for different reasons, not because they [inaudible]. But there was a racetrack with stands and we lived in the stables. The stables were quite nice. They were clean, of course. They were cleaned up. And I lived there. And one day, they said, “Okay, we'll take you to the embassy, to the American Embassy.” So I was taken out of the camp and two soldiers, one of each side of me, [inaudible] and we got on a train, went to London, about a half hour ride. We got off of the train in London. The authorities took me somewhere, I don't know where. But we marched through London to go to the American Embassy. Well, all the British people thought that they had caught a [inaudible]. That I was a [inaudible]. And they were shouting at me and yelling at me and spitting at me and all that kind of stuff [inaudible] as far as I was concerned. Well, I was going to the consulate. And the soldiers stayed outside while I went in and did my business for an hour and got my passport with a visa and all. I came out, the soldiers took me back and took me to the train and took me back to camp. And I was not allowed…I was not gonna…they weren't gonna let me go until I had passage to go to America on a ship. Well, there were very few ships that were going to America at that time because the war was on. There were only convoys and stuff like that. So, I had a ship passage. I was supposed to leave from Glasgow on a certain date, I've forgotten when it was. So three days, four days before, they let me out so I could go back to Manchester where I was living and get my things together. I had to report to a police station and all that. And I went to London to visit a couple of friends and the bombs were falling. And I slept down in the underground station. I've forgotten which one. One of the real deep ones. [inaudible] down there, slept the night and came up in the daytime, just to get out. The British…that was a horrible, horrible time and the British are very brave because [inaudible] subway stations and rails underground [inaudible] houses being hit. And the next morning they came up and went to work. [inaudible sentence] I didn't have these problems. By the time I got to Manchester, I had noticed that the ship was canceled. I thought, “Oh my god, [inaudible] back to the camp again.” So I went to the police station and they said, “Well, what's the story?” I said, “Well, I was told that I would be informed as soon as another ship is available.” So I was put under house arrest. They didn't take me back to camp. Finally, about three weeks later, I got a message that I had to report to Liverpool at a certain time to go to a certain hotel and be there, spend the night there and be ready at seven o'clock in the morning downstairs in the lobby. Okay. I went to Liverpool. That night I was asleep in the hotel [inaudible] and the bombs were falling. I remember that. We didn't have a shelter there. So I just stayed in the room. That was it. The next morning, I went downstairs. There was a truck out there. A police car. One of those black [inaudible] things. And I got in. They took me to the dock on the gangplank and I went aboard ship. I didn't know what the hell the ship [inaudible]. But on the ship I noticed there were signs saying “Samaria”. So that was the old Samaria, the [inaudible]. It's a small ship. So, there weren't many people aboard the ship and I had a third class passage, which means I shared a bunk with somebody else. And that evening, we were out there in the hall when there were air raids and that evening, all of a sudden, one of the engines cranked up. There weren't many people aboard, but the engine was going. We said, “Well, we're leaving.” So the ship pulled out and went to the middle of the harbor and stopped and dropped anchor. The engine stopped. “What was going on?” I couldn't find out. I thought the ship was supposed to go somewhere. And air raids came again. The bombs were falling in the harbor in various places, but our ship didn't get hit. And we stayed there for two days. And then a tender came along, several tenders came along. There were all kinds of young people aboard, young men. And they all climbed aboard the ship and the a few hours later, the engines cranked up again and the ship was moving. And we looked around, there was no convoy of any kind. So we said, “Okay. We'll go up by the Irish Sea and we'll pick up a convoy up in Scotland, up in that area.” Well, the ship went across without convoy, all the way across the North Sea in November. That was 1940. We went in a zigzag, all blacked out. We had to wear life belts all the time. Our life jackets had to be with us all the time. It was a very, very rough crossing. I mean [inaudible] or the ship [inaudible] zigzag course, because the U-boats were out, trying to catch [inaudible]. Sometimes we would hear an airplane and we would always hope it wasn't a German plane. And we had boat drills every day. We didn't know if it was real or not. There was a boat drill and one time I remember I was so sick after [inaudible], I didn't go up for a boat drill [inaudible]. I'll go down with the ship. I was thinking about it. I didn't care whether I would go down with the ship or not. Finally, after ten days, we saw some light on the horizon. The first lights we had seen. And that was Canada. And we landed in Halifax. And all these young people aboard in civilian clothes that I saw, in civilian clothes, turned out to be British sailors that were picking up some destroyers that were on land-lease from America that the Americans took to Halifax. And from there the British picked them up and took them back. They were the [inaudible] of destroyers, the whole group of them at that time. So that was the crews that were aboard the ship. And we stayed there long enough for them to off, a couple or so. And then we steamed down along the coast to Covington, New York. And that's where I landed. I came in November of 1940 with a suitcase in my hand. That was my sole possessions. One of the regrets that I have…oh, the uh…I didn't go through Ellis Island. That was closed at the time because it was during the war. But some custom officials came aboard our ship earlier, somewhere out, I'm not sure where. Outside the harbor. And we had to go down below and get our passport checked. And unfortunately, that happened while we were passing the Statue of Liberty. So I wasn't on deck, unfortunately. By the time I got back on deck, the Statue of Liberty was behind us. So I did not have the great pleasure and chance of passing the State of Liberty as I was looking forward to do. Being eighteen years old [inaudible] at the time. In New York, my first introduction to this wonderful country, America, was not the best one. There was a refugee committee that was meeting us. There were about six or eight of us there on the ship, which I didn't know until I got to New York. I found out who the other people were. And there was a man from the refugee committee there. They were collecting us and taking us to shelter. I don't remember where the shelter was . There was a shelter set up for these young people who came in. He said, “You got your suitcase?” I said, “Yeah, I got my suitcase.” And everybody else had their suitcase. He said, “Well, we're gonna take a taxi. Do you have any money?” He asked these people and I don't know what the others said, but I would speak out. I said, “Yeah, yes, I have twenty dollars.” He said, “Okay. I need two dollars to pay for the taxi.” I mean, he was just cheating me, because they give you that ride. But anyhow, I was in New York and I was pleased to be in this country. So this is, sort of very briefly, as to what happened. I mean the rudeness of the situation in Austria was fierce and disappointing, frightening. Unfortunately, my parents and my sister never got out of there. Interviewer: Did you ever find out what happened to them, Bill? Pulgrum: Yes, in nineteen…[tape stop] [Tape 1, Side B] Pulgrum: Yes, in 1940 [inaudible]. My brother and I actually had arranged an affidavit for them and they were ready to go, but their number hadn't come up. That was before America entered the war. So there was still communication. Finally, there number was up. They were ready to leave and they had crates, twenty crates with people. You couldn't take any valuables, but you could take your belongings, supposedly. The crates were sitting packed in their apartment and they were ready to leave within two days--they had passage; we had paid for passage; we borrowed money to pay for their passage—when the concierge of the building that we lived in turned them in and they were arrested. And they were sent to [inaudible German word] which was a model prison, supposedly, that the Germans put up. So when the Red Cross came to see how well they lived and my sister died there of pneumonia. She was eighteen. She was [inaudible] that was in 1942, I guess, or 1941. Must have been '41 or '42. She was eighteen, nineteen at the time. And my parents stayed there. And I have records of that. And from there, as people were brought into this place, other people, of course, shipped out to the chambers, the gas chambers in Auschwitz. And I've gotten from the authorities the records of all these shipments and of all the people that were shipped out and my parents were in the last shipment that left that camp to Auschwitz and were murdered. Interviewer: Your brother went to Italy to get over here? Pulgrum: Yes. My brother from Italy went to Switzerland first because his numbers were not up yet either. He had a visa and he stayed in Switzerland and he was fortunate to be protected in Switzerland, because the Swiss shipped their people back to Germany. I mean, when they came in legal. But he was protected by some people in Switzerland by some Swiss people. And finally came to this country, but before I did. Interviewer: Where did you go to college? Pulgrum: Georgia Tech. Interviewer: You were in the military in the United States Armed Forces. Pulgrum: Yes, I was. 1943 to 46. And that was a strange experience, too. I talked about that before and this other thing. I was drafted into the military and I was eager to go. And I left…I was here in Atlanta. Drafted to go to Fort McPherson and to be inducted into the service. And I did and I passed. I went through these hordes of people, through the medical exam and all that. And then there were about thirty or forty of us standing in line while young lieutenants [inaudible] through these papers before swearing us in to become soldiers. And he was looking through these papers and all of a sudden he said, “Pulgrum.” I said, “Yes.” He said, “[inaudible].” So I went up to see him. He said, “You're an enemy alien.” I said, “My god, there I go again.” He said, “We can't take you in the Army. You're an enemy alien.” So the others got sworn in. I couldn't get sworn in. I went back home. And I was really unhappy because I was eager to serve in the Army to do something this [inaudible] that was going on. So I made all kinds of contacts and I found out that if I wrote a letter that would show that I volunteered to be drafted, then I could go in. Well, previously my brother had gone in without [inaudible]. And he had been sent to the Fiji Islands and had been sent back on a medical discharge before they ever drafted me. I went ahead and wrote these letters and stuff. And finally, they called me again in June of 1943 to be inducted into the Army and this time it took. Interviewer: You've had a very distinguished career in Atlanta as an architect, I believe. Pulgrum: Well, yes. I was very fortunate. After the war, after the Army, I was able to study on the G.I. Bill and I went to Georgia Tech and then to Fontainebleau for the [inaudible French word] des Arts and studied architecture and graduated. And this country has been marvelous and my life here has been just the opposite of what I experienced before I got here, the last few years before I got to the magnificent part of my life. Interviewer: I know you had one son who plays violin in the Atlanta Symphony [inaudible]. Chris? Pulgrum: Christopher. Yeah, he's a violinist in the first violin section [inaudible] symphony. My other son is an attorney in San Francisco and I have another son who's an opera singer in New York City. And I have a daughter who is a psychologist up in Massachusetts. So that is my family. I'm married to an Atlanta woman who is an artist, who is a [inaudible], who was born here in Atlanta. And we have a very, very wonderful family. Interviewer: What lessons would you like to say in the next couple of minutes? We've got about five or six minutes left. [inaudible] What lessons would you like to impart to future generations that are going to be watching this? Because your story is part of heroes and one of sadness and one of triumph. Pulgrum: Well, this…I just want to tell people what a marvelous…I mean that this country was, for me and so many other people, truly a land of opportunities. This freedom. And hard work and consistency will get its rewards. And I have experienced that. I mean, no where else could this happen, I think. Here I came to this country with twenty dollars in my pocket. And no inheritance. With a lot of means I have [inaudible] retirement. That speaks to the possibilities that this country presents to people. I think it's marvelous that I was able to do this. When I go back and my children always think of me as being a hero. Well, I'm not a hero. I didn't do anything much to be a hero during the war. But this country has provided me, you know, the opportunity to live a full life. There's some sadness at the loss of my family. But I admire what people can do here directly and surely true patriots [sic]. Interviewer: Do harbor any feelings of hatred toward the people who did this to you initially or have you… Pulgrum: Of course I do. Of course I do. When I first went back in the fifties, I had a hard time facing the people who were at the age where I could see they were probably at the age where they were probably part of the regime that did all this to us. When I go back now, I don't see that anymore. I mean, I don't blame the present generation for what their grandfathers did. I've just returned from Austria, as a matter of fact. I was over there just a month ago. And the Austrians…I can't hold that against the Germans and Austrians. I was in Germany and Austria just a few weeks ago. I can't blame these young people. They are burdened with a tremendous amount of guilt which is justified. Wholly justified. And I don't envy them for that. But I can't take it off of them either. Because I know, there is reason for it. And that's how I feel about it. Interviewer: This has been a wonderful experience and from my generation to yours, we thank you so very much. Pulgrum: Well, thank you. Interviewer: It's an honor and privilege to have you with us. Pulgrum: Thank you very much. [end of tape] p. 2—Germans take over Vienna and label the Jews p. 5—sent home from school for good p. 8—arrested by Gestapo p. 12—Kristallnacht p. 15—tailor's apprentice in England p. 17—enemy alien internment camp p. 19—London blitz p. 20—ship to U.S. p. 22—misses Statue of Liberty for custom check p. 24—loss of parents and sister p. 25—insists on joining the Army - Metadata URL:
- http://album.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm/ref/collection/VHPohr/id/289
- Additional Rights Information:
- This material is protected by copyright law. (Title 17, U.S. Code) Permission for use must be cleared through the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center. Licensing agreement may be required.
- Extent:
- 54:39
- Original Collection:
- Veterans History Project oral history recordings
Veterans History Project collection, MSS 1010, Kenan Research Center, Atlanta History Center - Holding Institution:
- Atlanta History Center
- Rights:
-
