J. Leff interview with Willie Prather, Larry Moore, William Kitchens, Wayne Franks, Donnie Long, Buddy Summers, Terry Denmark, Pat Karas, Allen Frey, Debbie Smith, Wanda Biffington, Margaret Reese, and Jacquelyn Reid (part two)

The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. This interview begins with Johnny Lee Menuel sharing a tale about a preacher who would leave church to drink whisky. Menuel then tells a story about Roy, who stole a witchs pot of gold. Next, Henry Lee Malcolm shares two stories; the first is about two men who placed bets on a fight between a monkey and a bulldog, and the second is about an enslaved man called High John the Conqueror. According to one of the other interviewees, Malcolm heard the latter from an African woman who spoke at East Lake Grammar School. Next, John Matte tells a series of jokes, several of which involve a white man, a Black man, and a Jewish man. Other jokes include characters such as Shine, who shot a thief after he tried to steal a horse, as well as an old man who overfed a goat in an attempt to make a profit. Kenneth Davis speaks next, beginning with a story about a boy and a girl in Africa who, while walking through the woods, encounter a witch inside her candy house. Davis then tells a short rhyme that touches on racial inequality through metaphor. Finally, Wilson Lewis relays tales he heard from his family. Subjects of these stories include a man named Gabriel, who was asked to play his horn in church, as well as a family who tried to purchase sugar from a store clerk. He also tells a joke about a talking guinea pig and a story he calls Johnny, I Want My Liver Back. Johnny Lee Menuel (1956-1978) was born in southern Georgia. His family moved to the East Lake neighborhood of Atlanta, Georgia, when Menuel was about ten years old, where he graduated from Murphy High School. Menuel was shot and killed by Atlanta police at the age of 21 after being named a suspect in a gas station robbery. Henry Lee Malcolm (1955-) was born in Athens, Georgia, and lived in Monroe, Georgia, before moving to East Lake. John Matte (1955-) was born in Atlanta, Georgia. Kenneth Davis (1955-?) was born in New York City and moved to Atlanta with his family around 1966, where he attended school in East Lake. Wilson Lewis (1959-) was born in Atlanta, and he later married and had children. Additional biographical information has not been determined. AHC Oral History Cataloging Worksheet File Information Catalogue number ~1i\(";:,.':; !ex)::;', , V::J'g , ~ \ Source Field' (ContentDM) --.,. Release form Yes6@0 Transcript Yes or No scanned: From Yes or No Default text: Contributed by an OR: Donated by individual: individual through <your org, name> Georgia Folklore Collection through <your org, name> Object Information Enter information about the h sical ob'ect here: Title J0\1(\ C"\ ("\fe,1 (interviewee name and date 1\:\\\,\ Lv,"" Ht,.\,'oH of interview) ,)01\,\ H?...Hc> k~\,\H, t\'J ,i':; Description (bio on interviewee) Jo\\V\{"\ Le,c, 0t H,,-,'I'rd 4. I~e.(",\ \,~L" \,,{t\\!o,A', Jdt\'i\ ,,<\C,dAc> \ bOi II )c\,,(\ w, \ \H'" '",.,Jb'(\\Ic1 .. r,,\ ~J(o l '\ ~~) A>J(J,~/:j\ \\ I. \ ttt>sc; ,(;;'u",\ \.j 1 Creator (Enter either an individual's Burrison Folklore Class name or an organization) Collection Name (within the Georgia Folklore Archives organization) Creation Date Exact Date (yyyy-mm-dd) (use only one) Year (if only the year is known) Circa (4 digit year) "f j' ('::' I ~1J I> Year Span From To Object Type Image_ Text - Text and image_ Video and sound - Sound only..p. Media Format Reel-reel (VHS, reel to reel, etc) Recording Hours: ()e) extent Minutes: 0>rl",--j~ Derivatives Access copy: Yes or No Access copy format: ;;:~"'" Recording clip -"Y--e-s/.,pr No Clip extent: . Irj ?:;> I '~'::J Time code for Beginning: ISa! End: ;{()'.~./ I clip (h:m:s) Notes -I),:;;, (. '\:ll's 1:;;,,1" SI-Ie"'I., &\\l( ,.).\, t\'\ (interview \'\ ,\+"--ttX'lW <!.~); :5~0\'\,'-("" &>J summary) 'yV;!",rf\ \'\:} \"\ (J.- ',\ " ,r(ia l ""'\ f~\'~( 1f..t'<i c \,\ ~\"'''6 I () - . .' . Recording issues (background noise, echo, static, etc,) f h b' h Subject Information En etr'Informati"onba out the content 0 teo )lect ere: Subject Date Exact Date (yyyy-mm-dd) (use only one) , Year (if only the year is known) Circa (4 digit year) 110<0 Year Span From To Subject Who Last Name First Name MI Subject Country State County Town Local Name Location "~y .~~ \ It,k~.___) \)';4 "lP-&<-" Subject What AHC Cataloger will complete this for you, (LOC subject headinos on/v) Keywords Burrison, John Personal names See subject who for additional names , 3 , , Corporate LO'--~{ ... , &-.), (c, il",,,,.>Ac,,r .'i;;'h"" \ names Geographic locations Topics ~)'~\-i){\(- "'::;. , , Jl)'('<"S, STORHS 0]' NEGRO SCHOOL CHILDREN for John Burrison Introduotion to Folklore by Barbara Lanier Spring Quarter, 1968 INTRODUC'l'ION All of the boys interviewed for thi s cilillecting project are Negroes that attend East Lake grammar school. My contact with them has been through my husband, Jim Lanier, who in the past year has been coaching them in the Gra-Y (Grade school YMCA) program of Decatur's YMCA. The first time I approached them about taping some stories for me was one afternoon in the school audi toriwn after classes had just let out. About 30 boys showed up to see Coach Jim and !vliz Coach Jim, as they have started calling me. c[,hey weI'e real excited about telling stories and insisted on telling some then. The stories I heard that day were not on tape, and it is a shame, because they were the best stories, quite spontaneous, and those must be the stories the boys say they have forgotten, because nono,_of them have been retold on this tape. This project could have been much, much longer with many more tales. 'I'he boy-s seem to have an inexhaustible supply. Some day I hope to be able to add to this colleotion. The boys as a team have really amazed me. Crhey have gone from a "Don't touch me, white man" attitude to one of respeot for both Jim and myself. The respect I believe has turned intcl. a crude kind of love. 'rhey have begun telling about some of their problems at home, and one day three or four of them showed up at our apartment (Columbi a Seminary - Decatur, G-a.) J'ust +0 se") us. tl I LbIt u , In -leir aso a I game agains an all-oolored team from Kirkwood, a near riot oocurred. The Kirkwood bunch began harrassing ow:' boys on the field. Jiul was the only whi te man around and had rocks thrown at him. The game had to be called, but the "Don't touch me, whi te man" Eas t Lalcers had reached a point of dependance upon Jim and had literally hid behiml him in fear. ll<;1.ybe this sounds a bi t melodramatic, but I'm afraid that this was how it happenell, and it L:: only bees.use of the growth of the li ttle boys in tolerance that we were able to have stories from them. As a sidelight, only one of the parents of Jim's 4-0 some odd boys ever came to see who this fellow was that had their children ten hours a week and drove them allover Decatur playing ball. Their parents do not care. Johnny is a real good-natured chubby fellow the other boys have just started calling Bulldog. I tIs a goou. na,ne for him. Johnny was born in south Georgia on September 20, 1956. lIe is now in the sixth grade 8.t East I,ake School in Atlanta, an all coloI'ed brammar school that my father attended as an all white school 4 CJ years ago. '.rwo years ago, Johnny and hi s family moved fI'oHI south GeoI'gia to their home at 2630 Knot Street, Atlanta in the .E:ast Lake area. His mother, Mable Jesse Menuel, is a housewif'e, aw: his father, Artis, is o. caI'penter. Johnny tells a story in an oLf-handed way, but Lhe other boys like to hear his stories. He :"pecially likes preacher and ghos t tales, but could give no reol reason why. JOHNNY LEE MENDEL Urn tell a story, uh my name Johnny Lee Menuel. I'onna tell a story &bout de preacher an' de fresh ayuh (air). One day de preacher den de preacher say, "Say a song, say a prayer, w' ile I go outdo's an' git a l'il fresh air." Go outdo', got a bot'l a' whis', drunk de whis', den hw wen' back in. Said, "Say a song, sing a prayer, an' he's, re-quadden (?) I go outdo' an' git a I'il fresh air." Go out, git some whis'ey. Dis time a little bwah (boy) see 'im. Go back in. "Say a song, say a prayer, when I go outdo' an' git a l'il fresh air." Den-den he wen' back out dere an' he say, he came back in, he say, l'il boy had bus' de whis'ey, he say, "Don' say no song, don' say no prayer. Somebody done drunk up all my fresh air. N (laughter from the other boys.) My name, Johnny Lee Menuel, I'm anna tell a story about, uh - a witch an' all 'ese people. One day a-all 'ese people, dey know dis, uh, witch was up here, an' dey, uh, know de witch had all dis gale (gold). 'Ere was dis man name' - Roy. Den he say, he know,he wan'ed a pot a' gale dat de witch had. So dey din' dey, uh, din' never know when de witch wa' gone. So one day Roy knowed de witch wa' gone, surehe went up dere. Den, he peeked in an', sHe 'nough, de witch wa' gone. He saw dat big pot a', big pot a' gole. He grabbed de pot a' gale an' started down de mountain, an' den he-he-he thought de safe place for de - for de put it unner hi' baid. starter walkin' up de step. ,,~ So he carried (one syllable) it down nar, put itAunner hi' baid, an den he went to sleep. So dis lady she, dis witch she came down, den he say,"L'il boy - I want yo' (always there is a 'chI carryover sound between want and you) livuh. 'I/' Boy - I want yo' livuh." Den he IISaid, "Boy, I want yo' livuh." Den he got in de bedroom. Said, *"Boy, I want yo' livuh. ~Boy, I want yo' livuh." Got by de bed he say, '"*Boy, I want my gale an' yo' livuh. *Boy, I want yo' gole an' my livuh." an' he say, *"Boyl I got my gale an' my livuh! 'tBoy ...... " SOlVIEBODY: Das all? '* Roy? li/ !lENHY LEE MALCOM Henry is 8 rather quie t thirteen year old, born in Athens, Georgia January 26, 1955. Henry's mother is not living and he lives at 2785 'I'upelo Street, South East, Atlanta with his cousins. He is in the sixth grade at Last I,ake :khool. Ilis father is a policeman and works out of Atlanta. Henry has lived in the; East JJake area for two yea,"s before/which he lived in Monroe, G~orgia. As do most of the other boys, Henry playf3 on my hus band's baseball team. His hero is Henry Aaron of the Atlanta Braves and refuses to play any posi ti on other than right ii~ld. 'r'he other boys have dubbed him Aaron. He is a really good player and mature sport. 'I'he way Henry tells a story is fascinating compared with the; rna t ter-of-fact way the 0 thers tell them. He puts himselJ into every word. He makes as many motions as he can. One that made 11,e smile was in the tale of High John the Conqueror when the big slave John was to fight jumped up and ran across the field to k~el) frolll fighting John. Hem'y made a motion wi th his right hand that looked almost like a rabbi t scooting away. I didn't get a chance to ask Henry where he learned his stories or what he thought about thelll because he disapJceared after he told them to go oucside and play. However, I learned from one of Lhel other boys thatLhe High John tale had been told that week at their sohool from "A lady from Afrioa who callie to talk to us. II J wi sh I knew who she was. HENRY LEE MALCOLM Uh, my name is Henry Lee Malcolm, an' I'm onna tell de story 'bout de monkey an' de bulldog. One time dere was a man. He was sittin' on a - sittin' on dis bench, an' he had a stick, an' he was trimmin' it. (Henry made the motions of trimming a stick.) Ant he had a l'il monkey dane in , aroun'. Ant a man came by wi' a bulldog. He said, "I betcha my monkey can beat yo' bulldog." Dat man say, "Naw he can't~1I til betcha he cant" "Naw he can't .. " "I betcha five dolluhs he can." "Okay. It's a bet." So de bulldog, he grabbed de monkey, th'owed 'im on de groun', jumped On top 0' 'im, an' beat 'im. Anil de monkey was jus' sittin' dere hollerin'. Dat man jus' trimmin' de stick (Henry makes the motions of trimming a stick. ~. Well, while de monkey finally jumped up on dat bulldog back, dat man pitched de monkey de stick an' de monkey stuck de bulldog in de rear end, an' (Giggles from the others), an' dat bulldog went across de street (Laughter) an' said, "I wadn't bardin', bardin', bardin' (bother in' '?) nobody." (laughter.) One time - I'm onna tell de story 'bout High John de Conqueror. One time d'was de slave, an' he was, he was a gud slave. An' so he say, he were gonna do m-more, mpre, less work an' more s'-re-res'. An' so hi~, hi' mastuh, hi' mastuh, he were pickin' cotton, an', an' so he picked all hi' cotton, an' den hi' mastuh, s', hi' mastuh gi' hi' a-a slave. Naw~ Hi'mastuh ga' him a horse, a mule. SOMEBODY: Yeah. Hi' mastuh gal him a mule. HENRY: Wait a minute~ Lemme tell it myself~ SOMEBODY: Cut his skin off HENRY: lVI-m-m his mastuh ga' 'im a mule, an' den he said, den he saiel, "John, since you been doin' sech gud work an' all, I'm anna gi' you a mule so you can (Coke bottle knocked out of the window where one of the boys was sitting) make yo', make yo' own food an' stuff." An' he said, "Yes. suh?" An' den he got hi' mule, an' den he hitched up his mule de nex' dayan' one 0' his mastuh mule. An' den ev'ry time de mule say, "EE 'AW" he'll pop 'im on de back - -WAAH SHiH -- SOMEBODY: He hit 'im HENRY: He'd he'd he'd h-hit at de mule agin ~~WAH SHAWl GIT ON YO ZOO 1 WAH SHAWl GIT ON YOU YO ZOOl(?)U SOMEBODY: Ani, an' HENI<Y: an', ant, an', an' den, ant den, ant den s'-an' den, wuh, one 0' dee house slaves SOMEBODY: Hey. manl HENI<Y: One dee, one dee. one dee house , Je~ ,/e", n slaves4 say - de house slave, he were. he thought dey were gooder dan de feel (field) slave, so dey all would run back an' tell-tell-telde mastuh what de feel slave were doin'. So-sa-de house slave he ran back, he say, "~';astuh~ High John 68 C"'n<ltl8HH out - John out dere killin' yo' I im t 1" mule 1 I-Ie jus I beatin' it te def. He act like he gonna 1<122: 'I\(!, An' den de mastuh went out dereAsaw he was beatin' 'im an' he say, sho 'nough, - dis - den de mastuh (fa' real?) an' den High John, he was out dere beatin'de mule. An' den he said, "John? What you doin' beatin' my mule?1" He say, "I can't git dis ole lazy mule te work. E'ry time I say Hee, he say, Oink. E'ry time (Others giggle) I say Oink, he sat Hee. (Giggle again.) An', (Henry laughs.) an' den John, he din' know how te talk te de , , (lJ' . mastuh_ "g1.t 'im fooled, an' so, (gulp) an' so de mastuh say, "Okay," an' den he say, "You hit my mule one mo' time, I'm 'anna kill yo' mule1" An' den John say, "I betcha I make mo' money den you .an' SOMEBODY: Did you kid my ,? HENRY: An' den he say, den dis man looked at 'im right quick, looked at 'im, uh, an' den he say, he say, "What you say'?" He say, "I betcha if you kill he took his knife, my mule I make mo' money den ~\il.eA clean' sliced deAmule's th'oat. you .. II So de man.... Sliced de mule's neck (One of the boys hao:! motioned to Henry that it was supposed to be neck.), He did1 He . SOMEBODY: You tellin' it bad (?). HENRY: He sliced de moo, he sliced (Mumbles from everybody about the way Henry is getting it all wrong) SOMEBODY: , ..an' den he went on, went on into town. HENEY: An' den High John, he took de mule skin an', an', an', took it an' dried it, an' den he wen' inde town, an' he were wavin' it, an' he said, he said he cud (could) tell each other (?), he could tell people fortune. An' so, an' so dat man came up. He said, "Nigguh, can you tell each other, c-can you tell my fortune'r" He say, "Yeah." He said, "I gi' you a ~hou.!2an' dolluh you tell my fortune." An' den he, L'il John (One of the boys on the ball team is called L'il John.), John, he waved de rag, he waved de mule skin, looked in an' den he kep' on wavin'. He lookeec in it real hard, he said, "Oh NOl" Dat man say, "What is it'?! What is it?l" lIe, d'he say, "I can't tell. You might get mad." Den he waved again, said, "Oh IrQl" De man say, "What is it? l What is it? l" He said, "I can I t tell. You might get mad." He said, "I gi' you ~wo thousan' dolluh." He said, "Naw, you might gi t mad." "I gi' you three thousan' dolluh." "Well, Okay. You go home right now an' you'll fin' yo' wife in de house wid anothuh man." An' den he say, "Okay, now. If lAJL" he, " naw, daLilan say, "I don' E!?liev e it l" An' den he g~-t, "I tole you you wun (wouldn't) believe me." An I den,uh, he say, he say, "Go," den he say, "Weh, well, I'mgoin' home, an' I'm 'onna see, an', uh, if it's true, I gi' you yo' money." Den de man wen' home, an' hi', an' him an' hi' wife, him an' dat ma-, dat man an' hi' wife were havin' a gucl time. An' den, (Henry chuckles.) SOliLc;BODY: They were coooo ie l (I think this was Ir'il John.) fu:NHY: an' den dat, den, den dat white man, he grabbed hi' gun an' he shot de man an' h.1". , wife, an' he came back an' he ga' John hi' money. John carne back all on de feel jes' -- flancin' An' den, an' three thousan' dolluh, he hold de three thousan' dolluh gole in dat l'il bag in hi' mastuh face. An' den de mastuh say, "J"ohn':' You think if' I kill my lIlOO, uh, mule, I'll make some money too"" An' den he say, "No, Bosc;, I 'm .E!~~ you won't." An' den dat man, he sliced de, he-he-he/sliced hi' mule, he sliced hi' mule an', he sliced hi 1 mule an' th 'owed (?), an' den he took de skin an' dried, an' den he took, den he, den he, SOMEBODY: ~~op dat. (Meaning the recorder.) stop dat. HENRY: Den he, den he, wa-waved 'im through de air, an' den, SOMEBODY: sto~ dat. He got it ~rongl fu.NRY: he wen' into town. He were wavin' de top(?), "Mule skin fo' sale 1 Mule skin fo' sale 1" An' den dat ( ) anyway) dat colored man came out. He say, "1 gi' you a quartuh fo'it." "Man, what you talkin' about?Z Dis thing's worth seven thousan' dolluhl" (Everybody giggles.) An' den, an' den, so, SOMEBODY: Hey, HENRY: An' so WUll nobody buy it, so he jus' th'owed de mule skin in a, in a di tch, an 1 came on home. An' so, is, an' so, it was a man say, "I betchou I gatta, I gotta Nigguh, he can whup any Nigguh in 'is, in 'is gra(?). An' den he say, "Ne), I, nuh-uh." An' den he say, he say, "Come on den. I-I got, ya High J.eM, I got High John de Conqueror." An' den, an' den dat man say, "Okay." SOMEBODY: (whislJers) thousan' dolluh HENHY: An' den he say, ',' Ten, I gi' ya ten thousan' dolluh if, you beat ... C' St3I1JEBODY: 22 thousan' HENRY: 'I'en thousan' dolluh if you beat my, if yo', ... s-slave beat my slave. SOMEBODY: Why don' y'all be quite'?!" (Lid (Joh") HENRY: An' he say, "Okay, das a deal." An' so High John de Conqueror, he wun even worried. He was jus' sittin' out inna feel, eatin' an' gain' on, an' whi' dis othuh, whi' dis othuJ:J! slave, he were takin' ekercisesrn' everthang. An' so, an' so, when is finally camo/up, de mayor, de governor, hi' wife an' daughtuh, (Giggle) an' everbody came. ";verybo-, whi te people came from all ov"r de countryAe see it. An' dis color man, he wa', he wa', he was a great big ole tall he, v-..A he had~chains on his man. An' he had chains on his arm ~, hI!. w.a "'\-\"'1\1> 0-\\ -\'Ii-. "-,.",,6" arm sOAhe cun git away. An' so John, High John de Conqueror, he came up dar. He had on a pair a' black britches, a red coat, SOMEBODY: (whispers) stesson (stetson) hat HLl\IRY: had a Stesson hat an' a l'il cane. Came up !::Iere, an' den, he saw de,uh, saw de governor daughter, an' den he slapped her. He said, "POW l Din I tell you not to come out here today? POWiJ''' (Somebody drOP1Jed something and there are giggles.) An' den, den dat man, dat man say, dat man, he din supposed to be chusin'(?) dO, he din e 'en supposed to look at a white woman, much less touch her. An' den dat colored man, dat slave, dat man who High John de Conqueror supposed to be fightin', he saw him slap dat woman, he jumped, he broke dem chains an' ~.! off 'cross de feel. (Laughter.) He was a-goin'J An' den, an' den, den da', den, uh, High John de Conclueror, hi' mastuh, well he gal de g-governor half 0' de money, an' den de 01" lady, she, uh, dat girl, she wan'ed all de money. Dat man said, "Shut upl" ,. An' den, an' den he went, an' (len de nex' day, he put lm +'{(~\t back out, an' he were gonna put tim back out inna feel. So High John de Conqueror, he-he broke up all de plovl, an t pored watuh in de cotton seeds an' everthang, an' den he wud a' got away if it had',n a been fa' dat, uh, dat, uh, de house slave. House slave wen(\} back an' tole de mastuh. Mastuh came. "John? Did you do dat?" An' den he S-,. J'ohn say, "I cannot tell a lie. Yes I di d." An' den he say, "I'm gonna ],ill you. " So he grabbed John an' put tim in a paper sack, an' den he took 'im down to de river, but he forgot de, he forgot de, uh, weights. An' so he went back, he went back home to get de weight:o. (Mumbling frail! the others.) He-he went back home to get, :he werlt' back home to ge t de weights, an' so, the so, there was some rna' feel O'!t slaves, an' dey let High John de Conqueror~an' put some rocks in there. An' dey put, an' den de man put de weights on dere. He din take a time to look in~ide the bag. So he jus' put de weights on there, an' den he th'owed 'im in, th'owed diS, th'owed dem rocks out in de w-watuh. An' den de nex' day, High John, he came back, he's, he's jus' whustlin'. Den dat man say, "Johnl Is dat ;you? Johnl Is dat ;you?" An' den he say, "Johnl You think it I kill myselt I ma]{e some money too? I" An' den he say, (whispering from the others) "I-if I, if-if I k-, if you kill me will I make some money too?" He say, "I '01 sure you .. will, Boss I I '01 ~!:lre you willI" (Henry chuckles.) An' den, an' den he say, "Well, come on, John. I want you te puc me inna bag an' th'ow me irma watuh." An' so he got in, an' dey got 'im an' drug 'im down dere, an' dey din forgit de wei.ghts. Dey th'owed 'im in dere an I dat was de end. EVERYBODY: Let~!:!. tell it. IJemme tell it after John black bra cher JOHN lllA'l:"-i:E John :L s a thirteen-yesr-old who was born in Atlants on A.ugust 11, 1955. lie lives cl."G 2010 Memorial Drive, Atlanta, fJ.nd Goel3 to l~ast Lake school - sev'enth j~, year ago John moved from Edgewood (A.tlanta) to the East 1a1<::e area. His mother is Rolinoe 1avenes (?) and his father is John Barber, a construotion worker. John says that as an only child, his parents told him stories so he would go to sleep. His Uncle Roy 1esley also told him stories. In his colleotion here, the first story was told to him by his father, the seoond by his mother. He didn't remember where he had learned the story about the dollar of Daniel Boone. John made up the story about the White man, Colore<f\ man, and Jew man ste.aling, but the last two were told to him by his Unole Roy. John is one of the sohool bullies. He runs around with a rough older orowd, and has been suspended from East 1ru{e sohool for gambling. On the baseball team he is one of the best players and knows it. He loves to be praised and does it himself if no one else will. The fellows call him 1 'iI John, and this has beoome his trademark. In telling a story John uses good facial expressions and ocoasionally will make some hand mottons. JOHN lVIATT1~ SOMEBODY: I'm nex' aftuh John. I'm aftuh him. I'm aftuh John. JOHN: Tell ya 'bout white man, color man, Jew man. My name, uh, my name John Matte. Well, white man, he-he-he-he had te go te de devil, he had te go up d'othuh (?) night, so, he said, he said, he said, "God, what you doin' white white man?" White man said, "I don' do Q!?thin l , God.'" He sen'b 'im up dar. He said, "God, what you want me te do fo' ;you?" "I want you te go gi t me a big ole self te piece 0 1 rock fo' I kin make me some bread an' eat my11 ;Sh t Elea." An' he et hisself te deaf. Okay. White man, uh, white man got by de do'. He put a guard by de dID I. "Color man, what ;YQ!.!; wanna do?" Color man i3aid, "I wanna room full 0' women fo' I can, uh, can I say dat?, uh, 'f' myself te de af " So he put two gua,cd by de ro om. Okay. Went back de whi te man room te see was dey dere. Whi te man, he had ate hisself te deaf. J'ew man, he had drunk hisself te deaf (John said this kind of sadly.), Ole Shine went de color man room. Color man had -If' ed all de two womens an' bust de two guard IS boode (?). (John chuckles here wi th the others.) Das all. One night a man wanted Shine de watch his hawse (horse). Okay. Shine, he watched hi shaw', an' a man tl"ied, de man tried de get ovuh de fense de steal de haw'. Shine shot 'iml Shine had de go te co't (court). He cussed ~v 'ry.- said, body out. He bussed ev'rybody. He had de go te co't. Dey say, "Shine, you shoot dis man in self defense?" Shine said, "Hell, naw, judge, I shot his ass tryin' te go ovuh de i'ense." (Insane laughter.) SOMEBODY: Follow de driillcin' bull (?) (Sung) JOHN: It was a white mEm, color man, Jew man. Dey went down by, a white man went down by de ou (?), by de gra'yard. It was a dolluh shinin'. White man picked it up, put it in his pocket. Dis is de dolluh 0' Daniel Boone, Ya borrowed 'is dolluh ya doon. C ) IYhi te man start runnin'. Jew man came down nar. Picked up , de dolluh. He each lcin{ia (?) know about it. Dis is de dolluh 0' Daniel Boone, Ya borrowed 'is dolluh ya doon. He go t scare'. Colol'ed man a-go t down nar. (Fas ter. ) Dis is de dolluh 0' Daniel Boone, Ya borrowed a dolluh ya doon. He ran. Davy Crockett came down nar. Col, uh, uh, lang (?), Dis is de dolluh 0 I Daniel Boone, Ya borrowed a dolluh ya doon. A colored man said, Dis is de I put dis (Giggles and laughter.) dolluh 0' Davy mallah fok (?) /i'l/<A{""ll/ij {v Cl'ockett, in my pocket. A white man say, "How come you always comin' te work a ham sam'ich?" "Ah, man, I'm just tryin' te clam my way home." Jew man, "How come you always comin' te work by ham sam'ich?" "Jus' tryin' te clam my way home." Colored man, he don'lIevuh say nothin'. So (ley went to de sto'. Colored man, white man \'ro t~ was stealin', Perry say, "Vlhi te man ste alin I. Whi te man stealin', white . " Dr. Perry say, "129.:1 He make me sickl" Je" man wen t in nere. "Je w boy stealin'. Jew boy stealin'." Put dat stuff in hi I pocke t an' :@n. Shine went in nere. "Blacl{ nigguh stealin'. Black nigguh stealin'." Shine dried ni (?) said, "BOOOK'-BOOOK""BOOOK-gi ssh-BOOOK." Beat 'im te deaf. So,dey came back in nere te steal agin. "White man stealin'. White man stealin'." Jew man came in nere. "Jew man stealin'. Jew man stealin'." Shine started stealin'. He said, "Sh-". Shine grabbed 'im by the th'oat, he said, "Shhhh. Dat nigguh beat de shit outta you." (Giggles) Ole man went down de $.' I r~ street M he had a dunkey, he din have no thin ' but a skinny wheel. So skinlly ya could look thru 'im an' see his spinal cawds. Okay. Man said, "1,''11 buy de dunkey from ya. " He, "Naw, man, I gotta waTh home. " He waJJ{ed on. He iffed ( ? ) -fi-fte-e-n dolluhs. He stuck a ii' do:Uuh bill up de goat ass, an' he stuck a ten dolluh bill up it. Okay. 0c'0 he said, he wa' walkin' down de street, he said, "Yeah, ya wanlla but dis goat?" "Man," he said, "yeah, man, dis goat shit tens an' fifteen." Okay. Pat 'im on de ass, he shot a ten. (Gyah,l Reck-de-doodle-um ???) Pat 'im MQ.n sa.hJ J II on de ass. S-shot a five. "~, I'll buy 'im fo' a thousan' il,,~ -f'.' dolluh. I prob'ly sell 'im to de boss. Five or two tho:;san' dolluh. Prob'ly sell 'im to de boss." Bou,'Q" 'ht 'im fo' -th-r-e-e thousan' dolluh. "Awh, I pl'ob'ly sell 'im to de boss." Bought 'im fo' fo' thousan' dolluh. "Awh, prob'ly sell 'im to de boss." Bought it f"o' ten thou!!.~' .9:01;!:uh. Okay. He say, "You gonna help me get outta town an' get my chilluns on de bus'! You gonna pay dat an' g1' me ten thousan' dolluh?" "Yeah, man." Ole man bought de goat an' took de goat home te f"atten 'im~. OOOO*IE, he were bigl Big ole goat. Okay. One day he went out to de barn te pat 'im on de a', an' he shitted directly, an' he din see no monQX. Three 'ere joker five or tens ('I?). Pat 'im on bU'. "I 'ant see nothin' now." (Giggle from one of the boys.) Man got on kne8s an' started cryin'. "Don' shit no fives an' tens. I ain't greedy lak dat colored nigguh. Jus' shit some pennies an' dimes an' nickles. (Laughter) " De o'chuh night di s ole ole man go up de hill. He wanna Lei e" ,\( see his son. "God, God, lemme see my son te-night. Oh Lawd (, God, God, lemme see my son te-night." (sung) O-ole drunk mans got tired 0' dat, boyl Evuh night - "Oh, Lawd, hallelujah, God, lemme see my son te-night." He kep' gain' up dere, he kep' gain' up dere. Color man put on a whi te sheet. "alliin' towards de man. "God, lemme see my so~, now." Ole drunk man walkin' towards 'im. "Heavenly Fathuhl" Walkin' towards 'im. He said, "No, now son, don' git 'cited now. You go back down nere." Ole drunk man s Lill walkin' toward 'im. "Now, you go back down nere, son. God dammit devil, ya dead te hell t",day ya so danH1 h.l:rc1headed I" KENNETH DAVIS Kenneth Davis is the only boy interviewed who :Ls not on Jim's ball team. Jim had never heard of him before, and I Leally don't know how he got into the group. But it is this fellow that does most of the interrupting oj the others' stories. Kenneth was born in New York city in November of '55. He now lives with his family at 2921 Chevelle Lane, Atlanta. He has lived in this Jast J081ee distriot for two years before whioh he lived in New York. His mother, Easter, is a "house worker", and his f:ather, Haymond, is a "oement worker." Kenneth is in the seventh grade at East Lake. It was from Kenneth that I learned that the High John the Conclueror tale had been told to them at school frolli a lady i -~, from Afrioa. She told the other stories that Kenneth tells here. KENNETH DAVIS My naille is Kenneth ])avis, eh, I'm anna tell ya de stOl'y 'bout High J'ohn ue Conqueror. High John de Conqureo:c, he used te work one season, he, naw, h-he work one season good an' one bad, an' so, a-an t so he went down, no he used te worle one season an' one in a good one. An' den, so he wen' down nere. De man, he say, "Bas", how come I have te work so "R<- hard?" An' he say, "You a good worker." Sonaftuh dat he went, he went to de house, an' so he went, an' den tlrrn it off' (meaning the recorder). I dun forgot g!3-t story. I wanna tell a nary un. Turn dat un off. BAHBARA:What you wanna tell the second one? KENNETH: Well, de three dogs. BAIUARA: Okay, tell it. KENlSE'J:II: I'll tell one BAHBAHA: Okay. 'Ere were, 'ere were dese l'il boyan' girl in Africa. Dey wan' ed te go on a tri p thru de woods, so dey ask dere mama, (,ey say, "Mama, can we go on a trip thru de wood'?" She say, "I'm scared y'a3-1 will get hurt," an', sh-, an' he say, l'il boy went to de pirator(Hcdrigerator?), he say, "Here di' glass a' milk right here," an' he, an' he, an' he say, "Hhen de glass a I milk turn te blood, it s- turn our thil?ee dog loose." An' dog name Sao-sao, Bwanna, Barney McCarry, 1~'.\';~;:' 1,1) 0(11 (), Vi 000 Boy, an I Doodle-me-doo. An' den so, 'dey wan (?), an' she say, "Okay." An' den, so dey went ttlru de wood, de y went a long, long way. So :Lt got down te tere (?) witch house, wa' house made 0' can', an' cookie, an' all dat sorta. An' started, an' den run <lide. Now wi tch, she say, "Who's dat out dere7" He say, "l'a boy ta coooed (?), nothin' but de wind." "Who's dat out del'e?" 1J'il girl wi' hi' mi (?), "Nothin' but de . ," She knowed wa' some thin ' out del'e den, so she went out dere, she said, "Y'all don' have te eat ofia my house. Y'811 can come on in." So she fed 'em, got 'em real fat, 8.n' den she put 'em te bed. An' den she said, she went in de kitchen, had a cat up dere, "Sharpen yo' knife. Sharpen y (), knife." An', 8n' Jack din like dat, so he said te his si'tuh, '''Ne be ttuh get Qutt~ here I" ;30 dere were three, two bunk, two punkin sittin' by de bed, an' den, so she say, he say, "],et's put dese in it an' get out." Den, so he put de pumkin in de becl, an 1 he had tlwee co-, three drops 0' cawn in his pocket. He dropped one in a leven (?), went down, she knew whe' del' cows, lavin (?)wen down te de barn an' went down to it, (?'I??) An' dey took all dis, a eh, an' den, so aftuh dat, de went down dere, an' de lady, dey know she wane catch 'em on del' broom, so she caught 'em wi' dat broom. An', an' dey dropped, an-, anuder corn, an' so, it made a tall tree, it went up dere. Dey know dey cud hole out wi' dat.. She did a broom like dat, an' it's made outta as she started te chop. An' she , '6h~ hAd Ot'ie. yy.",E) had one more~n an' dey had one grain a 1 corn, an' den so dey dropped it, an' dat g-glass a' milk turned te blood. An' den, so, an' den so, he say, dOlj say, "Barney McCarry, Dooley-medoo, :300 Boy." An' den, dem dog came rurm.cn', st-, she gr-, she grabbed dem boy, and dem dogs started 'er eatin' up, an' den, dat's de end of it. Dooba dis an', ('ih say, Dooba dis an' dooba dat An' doo ba stole de yellwl cat. Doo-bal Doo-bal An' he s", h8 say, Doo-ba. De white folk, dey, dey cook dis cawn bread An I give us de crust. Dey cook dat meat an' give us de skin. An' he say, Doobs dat an' dooba dat An' dooba stole de yelluh cat. Doo-bal An' dey cook dat meat an' give us de grease, (Kenneth must have meant the African lady at school.) An' das din all 'ey say. Df it te11 all ..l.effi. Das de end. of- "~ She din tell all .Leill, she din tell all dUSON LEWIS Nilson Lewis, eleven years old, born in Atlanta on lrl<c"Y 26,1959, lives at 8 Carter Ave, Atlanta in Ea:3t Lake. lIe is in the fifth grade at E:ast Lake school a.nd ha.s lived in this neighborhood for one year, before which he lived in th", Negro housing project, Grady Homes, on Dekalb Ave. near Grady hospital and Georgia State College. His mother, Bm"bara Lewis, worl;:s in the hospital (I assurne Grady) a.nd his father is disabled, having u1l11y one leg. The others made fun of Wilson when he told us this, and he drew into himself :30 _,uch I vms afraid he would not tell me any stories. As it turne cl out, he told the,,, to me onlJ' after everyone ha.d gone outside. 'Nilson i:3 a. very quiet little boy who joined Jim's ball team onl,; at the end of the season. lIe is a. sensitive li ttle Jellow and very uneasy around the older boys, especially \ Ji 1':;0 i\ ~" L'il John. Jotmny is a great story teller. He laughs at his own humor and really seemed to enjoy telling the stories. He learned the gu:Lnea pig tale i':com his cousin, Bernard Harris, the Gabriel story from his grandfather, ,':rnest Harris, the Sugar story from his brother,UDondi. The white i'ian, colored man, J-ew man tale came from Cousin Bernm"d, and the liver story from his mother. WILSON LE'iIIS My name is Wilson Lewis an' I gon, I'm, I'm gonna YI tell a joke 'bout.;de guinea pig. One day dis man broke outta prison, an' he wen' to de farm an' stole a guinea pig. An' all de police was line' up on de street, went to de city, police wa' line' up on de street. Den guinea pig start hollerin' , "I walk. I walk." He say, "Shut-up, guinea pig." Guinea pig kep' hollerin', "I walk. I walk." "Shutup, guinea pig." An' guinea pig kep' hollerin', "I walk. I walk." He say, "Not here, an' I tole ya." (?) Das all. Ya know, Gabrul, Gabrul came te tawn an' started blowin' 'is hawn, an' den das 'cided dey wanna gi t 'im te play at de church, so he din show up. De preachuh started hollerin', "Gabrul, blow yo I hawn. Gabrull" An' Gabrul din blow it. An' he kep' hollerin', "Gabrul, blow yo' hawn. Gabrul:" He ain' still din blow it. "Gabrul, blow yo' hawn. Gabrul." Gabrul started blowin' dat haWD. 2v' ry body jumped up, ran uut de church. Ya know, de preachuh W8" t so smart. He had one a' dose long-telll' coats, he go jump out de winduh, so de winduh, w' , ya know de winduh laid ,\ down on de, on de tail, he started ha!rtgin' out de wiiJduh, tay (?), "Gsbrul, turn me loose, GabI'ul." Gabrul don' say ..- "Turn me ,0100 se, Gabrul. Gabrul, turn me loa se , an' I ai n 't lyi n ' " he was up stairs playin' wi' Now, dis boy name' Jo!Jnny, \ , ~ j\'1tfl>n\Lv'lj, his frien' ,tso 'is ,jll_ called lim downsatirs, "Johnny, I wan' you go get some s~, get some sugllll~ugar) wi' a) poun , 0' suguh wi' de s-s-spring time taste fa' de suguh can't wai t." He say, "Okay." So she ga' lim de money. Den Johnny weny aut, he met a boy wi th anairplane. He ask I could he see it, but de l'il boy said, "No." Den he wen' on to de sto', tole de, uh, clerk dat he wan'ed, a-a poun' a' ikuguh wi' de thee thie thay so de thuguh wo' wai'. tLh e j"etta man tole 'im dey din have no, I'hou de thuguh wi I de thee thi thase so de thuguh wo' wai'. Den he wen' back an' tole 'is mama, uh, dey din have no, thou thuguh wi' de thee thie thase fa' de thuguh wo' wai'. Den calla, call 'is sustuh, an' she say, *"Garl, go, go git me, a poun' \.'~e suguh wi' de, wi' de spring, springtime taste fa' de suguh won' wai t. " Den she met a l'il girl with a doll, a-ask' de l'il girl could she see her doll. An', uh, an' she wen' on to de sto' an' tole de clerk she wan I eO. a .lou 6' suguh wi' de thee thie thay fa' de thuguh wo' wai'. lIe said, "Here you come say, tlWl'. lie t thou de thuguhiVi' de thee thie thay t-.l'io' de thuguh wo I wai'." an' he ss.jd;'fust yo' brothuh, now you, an' go tell yo' * 'rhi s got accidentally erased in one of the play backs. lllallla lain' have no pou 0 I thuguh wi' de thee thie thaycYloY tho de thuguh wo' wai I ," 1m' she wen' back home an I tole her mama, have no "lila, they ain I t/;loun 0' thuguh wi' de thee thie thuy tho de thuguh wo' wai I , " An' den she say, "I ain't tell you te get no thou de thuguh wi' de thee thie thay Jo' de thuguh wo' wai', I tole you te go ge t some poun I (.Ie suguh wi I de sj)-sp-s"tring-'l:;ime taste fo I de suguh won' wait." 1m' Dlw call her Ja.thuh, an' den she tole I'lJlll to go down dere an' git a pound 0' suguh wi' de string-time taste 1'0' de 8uguh won' wait. II Den Iayhuh wen' down dere, uh, my wiIe said she wan' a, a thou de thuguh wi' de thing thie thase so de thuguh won' wai'." "Dis, fust yo' son, an' den yo ' daughtuh, an' now ,you. Tole ya once I din have no thou de thuguh wi' de thee thie tha" eJl tho de thuguh won' wai'." An' den she wen I on home an' say, say, "lYlargret, dey ain' have no thou de thuguh wi' de thing thied thase tho de thuguh wo' wai'. " An' den she, den she wen' down dere herself, an' den she d'meet, she, she din meet nobody. An' den she say, "I wan t," den she, den dey go t her te start sayin', I wanna thou de thuguh wi' de thee thie thase tile de thuguh won I wai', An' den he say, ":B'ust yo' son, den yo' daughtuh, den yo' husban', an' now ;)I:ou. I tole ya once lain' have no 'I'hou de thuguh wi' de' thing thie thase tbe de thuguh wo' wai'." Den de l'il baby 'roun about three years ole came down clere an' say, "Mama, can I go say dat?" "No. You too l'il." An' de baby sneaked out de back do' an' wen' down dere an' said, "I wanna pound 0' suguh wi' de string-time taste fo' de suguh won' wai t. " An' den, das de end. I'mma tell de joke about de colored man, white man, an' Je IV man. Well, de colored man w'-, dis colored man was up dere jus' throwin' peanuts in watuh, den police came 'roun nere an' say, "What you doin'?" "Throwin' peanuts in de wa-tuh." An' de11-, den, uh, white man came 'roun der'e an' say, an' started throwin' peanuts in de watuh, an' den colored man say, !!What you dohl'?" "Throwin' peanuts in de wat-uh." Den dis ole colored man thiJ:lJl: he so smart he got de boy called Peanut. Den colored man e-, what, police came 'roun dere an' say, "What you do:L n'?" Wilson and I laugh.- "Throwin' Peanut in de watuh." I 'milia tell dis, dis, uh, story called, "Johnny, I wan' my livuh back." It not de same one Bulldog tole. An' den .{I one, one, one e 'n\\ uh, his mama called. "Johnny, I wan I /\ you te go to de sto' an' get me SOHle Iivuh." An' den he wen' down to de sto' they ain' ha" 2 no Iivuh, so he wen' to dis gra'yard, an' he~~ut out de man livuh. lIe wrap it up in a brown papuh sack to take it horne, hi s mama cooked it, an', an' ask' Johnny did he wan' any livuh. S'he say, "No, ma'm." She say, "Go on an' get in de bed." An' den dat night/Johnny de creek by de watuh. Den he heard some noi se iJ\? ' heardhfootsteps, comi.n' from an' de man say, Johnny-John, I wan' my -liv-u-h back. Johnny-John, I wan' my -li-v-u-h- back. Johnny-John, I'm on de i!!~! step. Johnny-Jokm I'm on de -se-c-u-n' ste'p Johnny-John, I'm on de -th-u-r-d step. Johnny-John, I'm on de 22.roh Johnny-John, I'm in ya, I'm in de do 'way. Johnny-John, l'm in de -li-v-i-n' room. Johnny-John, I'm in yo' -ma-m-a'-s room. Johnny-John, I'm in yo' -si-st-u-h'-s room. Johnny-J'ohn, I'm in .Y.Q' room. Johnny-Jorm, I'm at dc' head o} de bed .. Johnny-John, 18m at de foot Ojl de bed. Johnny-John, I 0 chal I" Se m, "'try' A PDF transcript exists for this recording. Please contact an archivist for access. Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions. As archivists, we acknowledge our role as stewards of information, which places us inaposition to choose how individuals and organizations are represented and described in our archives. We are not neutral, andbias isreflected in our descriptions, whichmay not convey the racist or offensive aspects of collection materialsaccurately.Archivists make mistakes and might use poor judgment.We often re-use language used by the former owners and creators, which provides context but also includes bias and prejudices of the time it was created.Additionally,our work to use reparative languagewhereLibrary of Congress subject termsareinaccurate and obsolete isongoing. Kenan Research Center welcomes feedback and questions regarding our archival descriptions. If you encounter harmful, offensive, or insensitive terminology or description please let us know by emailingreference@atlantahistorycenter.com. Your comments are essential to our work to create inclusive and thoughtful description.