Transcript of an oral history interview with Reverend Harold Baker, 2008 October 10

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Oral His/my Interview
EASTSIDE DOCUMENTATION PROJECT
Reverend Harold Baker
7 LaRoche Court
Savannah, Georgia 31404
East Savannah
Charles J. Elmore
I 0 October 2008
33 minutes, 52 seconds
Video
Samanthis Q. Smalls
December 18, 2008 by MLH
CE: 'Cause John been your neighbor ' bout all that time hadn't he?
HB: Yeah, John moved six months ahead of me.
CE: Great day.
HB: Um hum.
RF: We're ready.
CE: Okay. Reverend Baker. Reverend Harold Baker, Baker. 7 LaRoche Court, Savannah, Georgia 31404.
October 10, 2008. Uh, Reverend Baker, we're going to start this interview by me asking you to tell me,
if you want to, about your early family origins. Where your family came from? Were they original
Savannahians? And, all of this is specifically about your time in East Savannah.
HB: Okay. My parents were born and raised in, in Chatham County. We moved from 5111 Street in Savannah,
Georgia to East Savannah proper, when I was two years old. We were there ever since. In fact we still,
the family home is still there. My maternal grandmother was from Hilton Head, South Carolina. Her
name was, maiden name is Green, Rebecca Green.
CE: Um hum.
HB: I don't know the origin of my uh, paternal grandparents. 1 think, I think my grand, my uh, my father's
mother was from Chatham County. I never did know my, my father's father. But I knew the, I knew his,
I knew his mother. We all lived in East Savannah.
CE: Which street?
EASTSIDE DOCUMENTATiON PROJECT
Baker, Harold
HB: Gwinnett Street. 2 114 East Gwinnett.
CE: And that's from your, from the time you were two until?
HB: Until I was, 'til 1973, then I moved here. But I, I bought a, I bought a home out there too. In 1963 I
think it was.
CE: Keep on talking. You don't have to wait on me.
HB: 2 109 Hanson Street where I been. From there, from Hanson Street I moved here.
CE: Keep talking. Don't pay me no attention.
l-IB: I have, there were eleven of us children, siblings; seven boys and four girls. Uh, three of my brothers,
three, yeah, have preceded us in, in, in uh, in death. Eight remain, eight are living. Four boys, four girls.
CE: Just keep talking, don't wait on me just tal k.
HB: Okay.
CE: Don't wony about it 'cause I want, I want you to be fluid so we can use you on, you know,
HB: Okay.
CE: so keep talking. So, uh now, tell me the schools, just keep on talking.
HB: Okay.
CE: Don't pay attention to me.
HB: Elemental)' school - I went to Power Lab. Located on the, on the campus of Savannah, now Savannah
State College. lt was Georgia State College then. I guess from 1937 ' til I graduated from elemental)'
school, whatever the year that was. For one year 1 went to um, Saint Benedict's Catholic School. And
after that, I went to Beach-Cuyler.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And I graduated from, I was the second class to graduate from, from the then new Beach High School
on Hopkins Street in 1950. I finished high school on August the thirtieth. I joined the Army August the
thirty-first, 1950, three clays out of high school. Didn't, didn't have any, any other place to go. Couldn't
go, couldn't afford to go to college; my father couldn't afford to send me to college, my mother
couldn't. So uh, we joined the, we joined the militmy; Palmer and ! joined the same clay. Went through
basic tra ining together. Went to Korea together. And they split us up after we got to Korea. Um, spent
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Baker, Harold
three years in the Army. And uh, I got, I got married while I was, let's see, I got married while I was in
the Army, in 1952 to Ruth M. Hamilton.
CE: Okay.
HB: I started college in uh, 1 forgot, must've been the Fall of January, the Fall of one of'em, 1973. '73? No,
no, not '73, I'm sony.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Uh, '54.
CE: Okay.
HB: I was, I was discharged from the Army uh, August 30, 1953 . I stayed in the service three years, three
years. I enrolled, I enrolled at Savannah State College in the winter of um, 1954. I went, it could've
been the Fall, I don't know.
CE: Okay, we got you, I got you. Keep on going.
HB: Okay.
CE: Talking good.
HB: Okay. I um, I completed the four years as a night student. Never did uh, graduate, matriculated. My
other education, American .. .
CE: You didn't graduate?
HB: I didn't graduate, no. American Theological Center, Nashville, Tennessee, extension school.
CE: Attended.
HB: Yeah, attended.
CE: Give it, give it to me agai n.
HB: I, I beg your pardon.
CE: Give me the name of it.
HB: American Baptist Seminary.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And I also attended uh, uh, not Morehouse but um, it was under Morehouse at that time. ITC,
Interdenominational ...
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Baker, Harold
CE: Um hum.
HB: .. . Theological Center. That's my, that's my educational background.
CE: Okay.
HB: Post uh, high school.
CE: Alright, where were you ordained, ordained a minister?
HB: I was ordained in
CE: That's important.
HB: 1950, '50, '54.
CE: Um hum.
HB: at First African Baptist Church, East Savannah. But, I, I was licensed then; l was ordained in 1956.
Same place, First African Baptist Church, East, East Savannah. My first um, pastorate was um,
Macedonia Baptist Church; Reynolds and 31st Street, 3 L st, 30, yeah, I think it was. It's been so long ago.
Second pastorate was Beth Eden Baptist Church; 302 East Gordon Street. Stayed there 9 Y2 years. My
third pastorate of charge was um, Second Ebenezer Baptist Church. Stayed there 35 years and retired.
CE: When did you retire?
HB: Retired October. ..
CE: Um hum.
l-IB: ... or September, last of September, 19, uh 2003.
CE: Okay. Where's your church located? I spoke there once, didn't I?
l-IB: l think so, oh yeah, yes you did. That's
CE: It's in Hitch Village wasn't it?
HB: Yeah, Hitch Village. 800 Colbert Street.
CE: 8?
HB: 800 Colbert. C.O.L.B.E.R.T.
CE: Okay.
HB: Now when l was a boy, I guess I'll back up a little bit.
CE: That's alright.
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Baker, Harold
HB: When I was a boy, East Savan1uih was, was um, in the county. It was not, it was not a part of the City of
Savannah. It was the county. Didn't have no streetlights, no, no paved roads, no running water, no in,
uh, in house plumbing. Outhouse and pump on the outside. It's, its, its amazing that we're not dead
because we had ...
CE: Um tllll.
HB: We had the pig, we had the pigpen, the outhouse, and the pump. The outhouse was, was between the
pigpen and the pump, so it's amazing we're not dead. But anyway, that's the way it was. Um, my father,
I think he bought the first radio, as I can remember, in 1939. A battery radio, had a big 'ole battery, you
had to have an, an antenna; we used to ca ll it an aerial. Went out of the window and up on the roof.
When I was a boy, I used to frequent um, my grandmothers', my two grandmothers' house, houses.
When I was a, while I was still a youngster, my, my grandfather, my, my, my paternal, maternal
grandfather died. I remember him, Hamilton Mitchell. Did I give you the name of my, my mother and
father?
CE: Um tun.
HB: My mother's, my mother's name was Mamie Mitchell Baker.
CE: Let me get that, let me get that. Okay.
HB: My father's name was Benjamin Baker, Sr. You want, you want the name of my deceased brothers?
CE: No.
HB: Okay.
CE: Just your mom and dad is all, that's good. It's all good. Okay, keep on, keep on rolling. You doing real
good.
HB: Alright, so what else I need to tell you? I told you I stayed three years in the militmy, the Army?
CE: Um hum. You told me.
HB: Okay.
CE: Okay.
HB: Fifteen months in, in Korea dming the time of the war. I went to Japan, went to Korea in 19-, Janumy
of 1951. Right after the Chinese uh, pushed the Americans back over the 3 8
111 parallel.
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Baker, Harold
CE: Wow.
HB: I was in Korea. We were, Palmer and I were. I been, always been a lifelong member of First African
Baptist Church, East Savannah. I was baptized in 1945. You, you'll have to piece that together.
CE: No. I'm fine.
HB: Okay.
CE: "A lifelong member."
HB: Lifelong member. Still a member there. I was baptized by the Reverend, Reverend William C.
Cunningham. Long deceased. My father worked in the, worked at the, at the DeSoto Hotel as a porter,
until 1942, until the war broke out. And then he became a Pullman Porter. And I, I guess he worked, he
worked that job, the Pullman Porter job, until around nineteen fifty-something I guess. My mother was a
domestic worker. We had one store in, in East Savannah. Uh, what's Ms. Sweet last, Ms. Sweet first, at
that time it was um, oh my goodness. It wasn't Luke. She later married Luke.
CE: It was a black store? One black store?
HB: Black store. One, yeah one, yeah one black store. Corner ofuh, Treat and Gwinnett. (calls out) Ruth,
Ruthie Mae? I'm trying to remember her name. Ladsen. Ladsen. Ladsen Grocery Store. Boy, she sold
about everything you could buy I guess, up that side.
CE: Um, wow.
HB: Kerosene and so forth 'cause you didn't have any lights, electricity. Ladsen Grocery Store. I remember
buying up a nickel worth of liverwurst, a nickel, a nickel wmth ofum, bologna, two bales ofum, sweet
rolls for a nickel.
CE: Five cents worth for liverwurst. Oh, I bet that was good?
HB: Yeah, it was good back then. It's no good anymore. It doesn't taste the way it did years ago. Was, for
fifteen cents, you could get a meal. Fifteen cents. Now my father used to, used to buy all of his groceries
in bulk from Laskey's Grocery Store on McDonough and East Broad. That's way, way before your
time.
CE: Oh yeah. That's Laskey's what now?
HB: Laskey's Grocery Store. You didn't have no supermarket then. Well, you did have A, A&P.
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Baker, Harold
CE: Um hum.
HB: Used to be on um, Bolton and Hannon.
CE: Okay, give me, Laskey's was located where?
HB: McDonough and um, East Broad.
CE: McDonough?
HB: McDonough and East, East Broad, yeah. Right down the street from Steele's Funeral Home.
CE: That's my granduncle.
HB: Yeah?
CE: Urn hum.
HB: No wonder you got all that money.
CE: No. Reggie and I are both Steele's.
HB: Yeah?
CE: Um hum.
HB: Yeah, Mr. Steele was somebody. He trained every um, funeral director, just about, let's see: Sidney A.
Jones ...
CE: They were in business together as early as 1946.
HB: ... Bynes. Yeah?
CE: Um hum.
HB: Okay. Yep, he trained, he trained most of the morticians in Savannah. They worked for Mr. Steele.
CE: What about the demographics, and segregation, and people in the area? Did any white people live by?
Or just all black people?
HB: You, you, you had white people lived in a area called Twickenham. And what's the other one?
Twickenham is on the, was on the uh, the west of East Savannah. And Gordonston, Twickenham and
Gordonston.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Real rich folk lived in Gordonston. And I guess what you called the common whites lived in
Twickenham. And there 's a, the another, the east side of East Savannah was called, I be dog, I can't.
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Baker, Harold
But East Savannah, whenever you read the paper now any uh, East Savannah, as far as we were
concemed ran from Bolton Street on the south to Jones Street on the north. Bordered by Long Avenue
on the east, and I forgot the name of the street out there on the west, on the west side. That was East
Savannah. And whenever we think of, whenever we speak of East Savannah ...
CE: Um hum.
HB: ... that's the um ...
CE: You say Long Avenue on the east?
HB: Long Avenue, yes, Long Avenue on the east?
CE: Um hum.
HB: I think its Long Avenue.
CE: Okay.
HB: Either east, east or west, but anyway. One of them.
CE: Okay. This is what white, this was what, what blacks considered East Savannah?
HB: That's East, that's black, that's right. You didn't have any, any, any whites in, in East Savannah.
CE: Okay. I got another question here. Uh, were there people in the community who were concerned with
Civil Rights?
HB: Oh yes.
CE: Can you, can you give me some recollections to your?
HB: Well, I, I, I was a part of the movement. Um, I worked with Mr. Law. In fact, I was um, I was uh,
Chairman of voter registration for awhile then Chairman of labor um, under Mr. Law.
CE: What? Give me some dates and times.
HB: Ah man, I can't go back that far. You remember seeing a picture in the Herald a few weeks ago of
preachers marching?
CE: Um um, I haven't read it.
HB: Well, it's, it's, it's been over, over two months ago now.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And um ...
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Baker, Harold
CE: So you worked with him in the Civil Rights Movement?
HB: Civil Rights Movement, yeah. And on, on that, on that front page of the Herald, Joseph Lowery, P.
Harold Gray, he was president at the time ofl.M.A, Benjamin Gay .. .
CE: Um hum.
HB: myself, 1 was vice, vice president, whatever that, 1960.
CE: In the, in the '60s? In the early, in the '60s?
HB: Whenever, yeah, ' 60s, yeah.
CE: Okay. I got yeah.
HB: Or during, or during the boycott period. Then we, we picketed uh, Barga in Corner. Remember Bargain
Corner?
CE: Um hum. Um hum.
HB: And I worked, I, I, I worked for the Post Office.
CE: Okay.
HB: Um, in 1954 I slatted working for the Air Force.
CE: Alright, let me, let me, just give me the chronology now. In I9-...
HB: ' 50, 1954.
CE: Um hum.
HB: I started working with the Air Force Storage station in Garden City, State P01t.
CE: The U.S. Air Force
HB: Storage Station ...
CE: Um hum.
HB: ln Garden City. At um, the uh, facility was on State, State Port. 1958, I transferred from ...
CE: Was this is a federal job?
HB: Federal job, yes - Transferred from uh, the Air Force warehouse, storage station to ...
CE: In 1950?
HB: '58.
CE: Um hum.
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Baker, Harold
HB: To U.S. Post Office, Postal Service. I stayed there until! retired with disability in 1973.
CE: Okay. Alright.
HB: Alright. My state affiliation in terms of um, church, was New Era Missionary Baptist Convention of
Georgia. And 1 served as president of that ...
CE: New Era Baptist Convention?
HB: Yeah. New Era, E.R.A., Era.
CE: Um hum. I spoke there before.
HB: You did?
CE: Oh yeah.
HB: I was president from 1996, to see, 1996.
CE: You were state president?
HB: I was state president, yeah. For two years.
CE: From 19- ?
HB: Must be 1996 to 1999, something like that.
CE: Okay. Yeah, 'cause Reverend Ellis is a good friend of mine worked at church history. I remember ...
HB: Yeah, Ellis.
CE: ... going there.
HB: is one of the vice, vice presidents.
CE: Um hum. New Era, yeah, know about it.
HB: Yeah.
CE: Um, all those preachers you called, 1 know ' bout them too from all that writing in my books ...
HB: Yeah, okay.
CE: ... and stuff. I researched a lot of that.
HB: Shell, Quarterman,
CE: Um.
HB: Brooks,
CE: Yeah.
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Baker, Harold
HB: Whitehead, they were all founders.
CE: E.P. Quatterman boy.
HB: Yeah, E.P. Quarterman, yeah.
CE: Um hum. Go head on, let me stop.
HB: My good friend. Ah, what else you want to know?
CE: Let me, ask me, tell me about, I was very concerned, or very curious when I wrote a book ca lled All
That Sm•m11wh Jazz .from Brass Bands, Vaudeville, to Rhythm and Blues about ten years ago now
almost. And one of the things I remember writing about was in 1956 when at the Sports Center, this
rhythm and blues revue came. And they had Clyde McPhatter, um, um, the um, Frankie Lyman and the
Teenagers. And the blacks went in the mornings and then the whites went at night. And they had uh, the
guy, Bill Haley and the Comets doing "Rock Around the Clock." You remember that?
HB: I, I remember the song, "Rock Around the Clock."
CE: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
CE: What did people do for leisure and entertainment in the area? In East Savannah?
HB: In East, we had a, we had about a three-hole golf club in East Savannah. And the fellows who played
golf, most of us, most of us were, were uh caddies at that time. We all went to the golf course, especially
on Saturdays to caddie, to make a little, little extra money.
CE: That was Savannah Golf Course?
HB: No, yeah, Savannah Golf Course.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Uh,
CE: They did like, let blacks, blacks to go there did they?
HB: Oh no, they didn't allow blacks go there. That, they would allow us to play on Mondays. And um,
believe or not, the white players would lend the, lend them- their caddies- their um, their golf bags to
play golf at, at Savannah Golf Club. Then we had, well they played baseball, footba ll sometimes, but
mostly baseball. A place called The Diamond. It's been taken over now by Housing.
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Baker, Harold
CE: "At The Diamond." Where's that located?
HB: The Diamond was located from Gwinnett Street on the south to now what is called Moseley Street on
the north. From Treat Street,
CE: Wait a minute. Um hum.
HB: Now The Diamond and, and the three-hole golf, gott: golf uh, club ...
CE: Um hum.
HB: ... was in, was all in, in the same area.
CE: Okay, golf course.
HB: Golf course and The Diamond and stills, had liquor stills there, in that area also. They made liquor.
Treat Street was on the west and um .. .
CE: They had illegal liquor, liquor stills and everything?
HB: Oh yeah, yes sir. Had a lot of 'em, a lot 'em down that side. In fact I had a uncle, he, he played football
and at that time, he got his chest crushed. And they didn't take, he, he didn't get proper medical
attention and he developed TB and died. l had uncles to make liquor.
CE: They made it and sold it?
HB: Made it and sold it. Everybody knew what was going on but, you know, they kept it quiet.
CE: Okay.
HB: Now um, we didn't have too many, something happened to me. I was, when l was in high school, I was
working for a white man who ran a, a, a, a pool parlor, billiard parlor.
CE: Um hum. What was the name?
HB: Lovelady. He, he was from um, he was from Ohio. What pa1t of Ohio? Uh, he was from um, oh that's
been so many years ago. But he slapped me.
CE: Good God.
HB: Because um, he, he, he'd gotten his head bad, got his head bad. And he asked me a question and I told
him it wasn't, you know, I told him. And then he hit me and said, "Don't call me a liar." When I got
home, my, my face was swollen. This says something about, about my father. And he noticed that, and
he took me back up there that same night to confront this white man. Now that was something else.
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Baker, Harold
CE: Oh yeah.
HB: And he apologized to my father for hitting me. My daddy was a man, he was a real man.
CE: Yeah, he was a man.
HB: Yeah, a real man. I thought that, I thought that that wou ld be kind of interesting to you.
CE: Oh yes. Been like that night when a cop tried to stop me one night in front of my house and my daddy
came out and had him to bring a officer to watch out.
HB: Hm.
CE: Oh yeah.
HB: We used to um, when we were in high school, we had to either walk or catch the bus to go to East Broad
and Gwinnett Street. No, to go to high, to go, go to Cuyler.
CE: Okay.
HB: Beach Cuy ler.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Later on, they gave us a bus. We had to, they took us to East Broad and Gwinnett. And we had to walk
from East Broad and Gwinnett to Beach-Cuyler over on Cuyler Street.
CE: Took a, had a bus that took you to what?
HB: East Broad and Gwinnett. And that's when evety bus, bus route was segregated, as you probably know.
And I never shall forget um,
CE: That was a city bus though, right?
HB: City bus. City bus. We caught the bus at, at Gwinnett and Pennsylvania Avenue, is where we caught the
bus at. And, as you know, to be seat from the white, white from the front to the back.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And blacks, blacks from,
CE: Um hum.
HB: to the back.
CE: I know. [unc lear] We was there.
HB: Okay.
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Baker, Harold
CE: I was there when you talking about.
HB: And this, this, this patticular morning we were going to school and one girl sat a seat ahead of a white
person. And this, and this white man got up with a knife in his hand, cussing the girl out. But he really
cussing all of us out. Telling us to get, get on back to the back of the bus where the niggers belong.
CE: Good God.
HB: I know, all, all the best, the best you could do was, was, was to comply. 'Cause he probably could've cut
your head, your head off and .. .
CE: Nothing would happen.
l-IB: And nothing would happen to him.
RF: Let's stop right there for a second, I got to change tapes.
CE: Okay.
RF: Go ahead.
CE: Um, let me see. We covered early family origins, education, demographics/ethnicity, desegregation and
Civil Rights, how leisure time was spent, that's very good. What kind of work did people perform?
Businesses, where did most of the people work? I know you told me your mother and father but, most
blacks?
HB: No, my father. Most blacks worked um, either the golf course, the cemetety. Bonaventure Cemetery, my
uncles worked there. Um, uh, the fertilizer mill on President Street; there were, there were two of them
over there. The rosin, they had a, a, had a rosin factory on President Street. They worked there.
CE: Rosin?
HB: Rosin, yeah.
CE: Uh huh. Or? You said there was two of them.
HB: And during the war, or when the war broke out, lot of'em
CE: In Korea?
HB: No. Second World War.
CE: Uh huh.
HB: Southeastern Shipyard out President Street. It was on President Street, Savannah River.
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Baker, Harold
CE: Was it longshoremen?
HB: Yeah, you had a few longshoremen, yeah.
CE: Okay.
HB: You had a few of those, you had a few of them out there.
CE: Okay, that's about it.
HB: We had the golf course the, the cemetery.
CE: Um hum.
HB: The fertilizer mills and the rosin mill.
CE: Okay. I believe we got it. Threw me some good stuff?
HB: Yeah.
CE: Now we got to get these ...
END
City of Savannah NOTES
1. Footage is unedited and presented in the form that it was recorded. Breaks represented pa uses or changes in
taping medium.
2. On page 2, the interviewee references Leroy Palmer, a fel low East Savannah neighborhood resident that was also
interviewed for this project.
3. On page 12, the interviewee references "TB" which is an acronym for tubercu losis.
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