Interviews with Leroy H. Palmer, Reverend Harold Baker, and Corinthia Shellman Manigault, 2008

Palmer, Leroy H.
Oral HisiOIJ' Interview
DEPARTMENT OF CULTURAL
AFFAIRS
EASTSIDE DOCUMENTATION PROJECT
Interviewee's Full Name: Mr. Leroy H. Palmer
Interview's Address: 2138 Iowa Street
Savannah, Georgia 31404
Interviewee's Neighborhood: East Savarmah
Interviewer: Charles J. Elmore
Date oflnterview: II October 2008
Length of Interview: 46 minutes, 44 seconds
Interview Medium: Video (Reginald Franklin- Videographer)
Transcriptionist: Samanthis Q. Smalls
Date of Staff Review: Revised and corrected by Michelle Hunter on 7 January 2009
LP: I was born here in East Savannah and uh, I was born up on Waldburg Street. In uh, a big house there,
my mom and dad rented, had a room rented. And when I was about three or four, they moved across the
street in a smaller house. I can show you both of those houses. And uh, now ...
CE: You want to tell me your mom and dad's name?
LP: Yeah. My mom name is Rosalee Peny and my dad name is Earl Palmer.
CE: Spell the name for me.
LP: Earl?
CE: Your mother's name. R.O.S.A.L.I.E.?
LP: No, R.O.S.A.L.E.E. rt's different, it's like Rosa L.E.E. Palmer, I mean Perry.
CE: Okay, and your dad's name?
LP: Earl Palmer.
CE: Okay.
LP: And my dad's from Waycross. And he, he, he is here by way of my aunt who is married to my mother's
uncle.
CE: Okay, just tell me.
LP: Yeah, so he came to see her you know, he said, "Who's this?" Well, she's a kid from the, "Oh," and
that's how they got together.
Palmer, Leroy
CE: Okay, go ahead, I'm listening.
LP: Okay. Uh, this house was built by my grandfather, Henry Perry. This house was built in 1910.
CE: Keep on talking.
LP: Yeah, and of course he, he left this to my mom. And after her, her and my father got married, they came
back here. At that time, my uncle was here, Isaac Green and he had five, five children.
CE: He raised five children here?
LP: Yes. He raised five. And then my mom made the sixth because she was, she was only eleven
CE: Um hum.
LP: when her mom died.
CE: So he raised your mom and five kids of his own?
LP: Right.
CE: Keep on.
LP: Okay, so let me give you an aside.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Uh, I just purchased this house three months ago.
CE: Wow.
LP: Three months ago I purchased this house back from the guys uh, who bought it they come out of
Detroit, him and his son and they remodeled it. And by coming to see Ms. Manigault, I see them down
here working and I talked with ' em. And I said, "I want to buy this house but I want to buy it from you,
I don 't want no middle man." And I did; bought it from him. So, I last lived in this house in August 31,
1950.
CE: Wow.
LP: That's when I went to the service. And when I went to the service, I didn ' t come back home to stay. I
stopped in New York City for a vacation and I came home 45 years later when I first met you at
Savannah State.
CE: Oh. Went to New York.
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: Yeah, on a vacation after I mustered out in Virginia. And uh, stayed on vacation for 45 years. Raised
five children.
CE: Okay.
LP: Alright. Um, I went to work for New York City transit as a tower operator. A towerman controls the
traffic on the railroad. The engineer only can put the power on and turn it off.
CE: Um hum.
LP: But the tower, if he doesn't give him the proper line-up, he's in trouble.
CE: How long you worked for them?
LP: Uh, for 21 years, 9 months.
CE: When you retire from there?
LP: 1984.
CE: Um hum, keep going.
LP: Okay. Uh, I, I knew I didn't want to hang around New York. But uh, my wife at that time was working
and she wanted me to kind of hang around ' til she retired.
CE: Uh hum.
LP: And uh, so I did odd things. I went to work for OTB, in fact, my son-in-law worked, drove for Hazel,
the lady who was in charge ofOTB.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And he got me on at OTB in the paramutual window. So I, so, chances, what they, horse, horse bets.
When I tired of that, I, I went to work uh, as a limousine driver. 'Cause I knew the city like the back of
my hand so. But, but my wife was a little queasy about that.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Because sometimes I, I'd be gone for two days.
CE: Urn hum.
LP: And black women not, they're not, they're not cool with that; "What? Where you get clothes from?
Where, where, where?" Well, you know, you have to work it out because sometimes, if my last trip is
going to be to Groton, Connecticut ...
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... I'm not coming back at two in the morning.
CE: Um urn.
LP: I'll get me a place, stay, come home, take a shower, and come on back the next day. She wasn't happy
about that. So, I said to her, you know, when she retired in '94, "We're coming to Savannah." Because I
had, I had planned to come back anyway. So ... ,
CE: In 1984?
LP: No, in 1994.
CE: In 1994.
LP: Yeah, we came back to Savannah.
CE: Is your wife originally from Savannah?
LP: No, she's from Sapelo Island.
CE: Wow.
LP: Yes sir. Sapelo Island.
CE: You met her in New York?
LP: Yeah. And that's my second wife that I'm talking about there.
CE: Okay.
LP: We got married in New York in 1974. We were married 24 years when she passed away.
CE: In 19' what? She passed away in 19'?
LP: 19', no, in 2000. She passed away in 2000, November. And, and I finished Savannah State the next
year, December 21
51• I went to school the whole time she was sick because the doctors kept her moving,
kept her ambulatory.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And I got help, to help me with her, and I, I went to school because I, I was like, boxed in.
CE: Um hum.
LP: That's when I ran into you and you were ...
CE: Um hum.
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: ... and you, and you gave me a "C."
CE: Nope, 1 didn ' t give it to you.
LP: Yeah you did. Because I said ...
CE: I never, I never gave a grade in my life.
LP: No, no, I know, I know. That's, that's what you earned.
CE: You know, you know why you got that "C."
LP: Yeah, Jesse, Jesse Faucet, whatever I called her?
CE: Yeah.
LP: I called her backwards. I still remember that. But anyway, I um, uh, my wife passed in November and
then uh, the following year I finished in December, 200 I . But now, I met a great girl. She was uh, of a,
of a old family out here, which is the Baker family.
CE: Um hum.
LP: I met her and I said, you know, I'm going to study in, in Accra, for, for four weeks in August and we 're
going to get married that next September. I said that's going to be a long time Effie, if something
happens to me, it's, it's all over.
CE: Um hum.
LP: So, why don 't we get, push the wedd ing up to June?
CE: Um hum.
LP: So, I get married and then I'll go to Ghana and when I come back, we'll just go on living. She says,
"Okay." So that means that I got married almost seven months after my wife passed which was a big
thing, out here.
CE: I guess so.
LP: I don't pay 'em no attention.
CE: No, you got to live your own man.
LP: I go where I'm going. So, uh ...
CE: This is your, this is your third wife?
LP: This is my third wife.
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: Okay.
LP: And uh, when I went to Ghana I had a great time. Dr. St. Mark and Dr. Quacco.
CE: Um hum.
LP: fantastic guys. Um, when I came back is when I graduated, and then in 2002, I started subbing in New
York, in, " in New York City," in, in Savannah school system. I am still now, in the Savannah system.
They just brought me on as a para and gave me, what do you call it? Uh, brought me down to the
office ...
CE: Urn hum.
LP: ... and gave me, so other words, I been employed now, other words, I was working before
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... as a temp. Now I'm a regular employee ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... with the Board of Education.
CE: Yeah. My daughter, my daughter-in-law is a right now, until she gets her credentials, is a paraprofessional at Thunderbolt.
LP: Okay. Okay.
CE: Like what you've done.
LP: Right now, where you call me the other day, I was over at Gadsden.
CE: That's where you work regularly?
LP: Yes, right now.
CE: At Gadsden?
LP: Gadsden.
CE: You know, my dad was one of the first principals of that school when they originally, when they built it.
LP: Son of a gun.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Small world huh?
CE: Yep.
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: Okay. And of course uh, I got kind of uh, pushed off into Special Ed. For some reason, back in 2004 ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: I worked at Juliet Low. Dr., what was her, what was her name? Dr. Garcia called me and said, "Listen, I
have a kid who is autistic. I wonder would you come over here and work with him, one on one? Pick
him up from the bus, be with him all day, you got 30 minutes for lunch, take him to the bus in the
evening, that's your job." I says, "Okay, let me talk to my wife about it. We'll see." So, I took that job.
That's back in 2004. Since I took that job, eve1ybody calls me for Special Ed.
CE: Did you have much success with that kid?
LP: Psst, Herman is doing fantastic.
CE: Herman?
LP: His, his name is, I can't give you his ...
CE: No, no.
LP: Yeah, yeah.
CE: Herman is .. .
LP: Herman was about, I guess about seven or eight. He was very disruptive. Um, not too coherent but I
found out that he liked to spell. So, what I did, I spelled eve1ything with him. Like, I spelled "Good
morning," I spelled "goodbye." I spelled "lunch." I spelled "I like you," spelled "You make me ang1y."
I, I spelled it. And he had to listen to me like this. He'd say "Ang1y." "Yeah, yeah that's what I said."
So, after awhile we became very good. I had him for the whole year.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Of course, in this class, this was before they became uh, included.
CE: Uh hum.
LP: This, this was a contained class.
CE: Okay.
LP: There were six children in that class. And the lead teacher was Ms. Harriet. The second teacher was Ms.
Franklin. And I was Herman's para-. There were only six students there. So, we had quite a few bouts.
He was uh, disruptive with regard to his, his, his uh, uh not wanting to do what you tell him.
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: Um hum.
LP: So, you had to kinda do a little bit of forcing with him and hold him and hold his hand. We made a deal.
He said to me, "You hold my hand all the time." I said, " If you, if you would tell me you wouldn't nm
away, I wouldn't hold your hand. We'd walk like two men." And after about six months maybe, we
were able to walk like that. 'Cause before, he would run, people he had before, he run out the school,
jump ...
CE: Is he, is he studying mainstream now?
LP: Yes he is. I just saw him at the Summer Olympics in, in uh, Daffin Park.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And I go to him and I says, "Herman." And he says, "Yeah?" I said, "Who am I?" He said, "You Mr.
Palner." Always called me Mr. Palner. He couldn't call my name right. But, but he knew who I was.
That made me cry.
CE: So he talk, you got him to talk?
LP: That's right.
CE: Okay.
LP: I tell you what, I tell you what Herman did. After I worked with him so much,
CE: Um hum.
LP: Herman was able to go to the board, write eve1y student in the, in the, in the class name, write the
teachers' name. Count from I 00 back to I, backwards.
CE: Okay.
LP: He was fantastic. Fantastic.
CE: Now. I, you told me now, now I didn't, you didn't tell me, I know you went to Powell Lab School.
LP: I went to Powell Laboratmy in 1932, 1938. Outside the student union, there 's a little clock there with
the sundial.
CE: Um hum.
LP: When they put that there, I was standing right there. That sundial is right there, it's still there.
CE: Yeah, at the Russell Marquee.
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: They, they told us that, that the Egyptians told time by the sun and this is the dial that they used. When
they installed it there. I was standing right there.
CE: And my dad was a, a freshman.
LP: Dad went to school? Janie Bowers finished that school 1949.
CE: My dad finished in '41. If he'd been living, he'd a been 90 years old yesterday.
LP: Wow. Fantastic.
CE: Yeah.
LP: Very sweet, vety sweet. Okay, yeah, in my class at Powell Laboratmy, in my first, second, third grade
classes,
CE: Hold a minute. Go ahead.
LP: Yeah, my first, second, and third grade, I remember at least two or three teachers in the classroom.
CE: Okay, give me names.
LP: No, I don't have the names. I don't, I don't remember my, my.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Now I've got a buddy here, Harold Baker, who's a minister.
CE: Um hum.
LP: He um, he was a minister at uh, Mt. Ebenezer down in Hitch.
CE: I talked to him yesterday.
LP: That's my buddy.
CE: Don't, don't mess with me. He told me. Say ya'll went in the Army together. And ya'll went into Basic
together.
LP: That's right.
CE: When ya'll went to Korea, ya'll split up.
LP: That's right. We grew up, we grew up right here on East Savannah. Okay, that's great, that's great.
CE: Don't mess with me.
LP: I've known Harold all my life. You know, this is his niece who I'm married to now. That's his brother's
daughter. Boy you, you getting yourself together.
9
Palmer, Leroy
CE: You ever know me to do otherwise?
LP: No, no, no. Listen, the, the one time that I saw you that you really knocked me off my feet when you did
that oral essay at one of the, what is it, Founding Days.
CE: Really?
LP: Oh you, man you blew the whole place apart. Everybody was going, "Wow!"
CE: That was 1997 I think it was.
LP: That's right. That's right.
CE: What? What's your wife's name now?
LP: Uh, Wanda.
CE: Okay.
LP: (looks at phone) Leave a message.
CE: "Wanda Baker. Wanda Baker Palmer."
LP: Her name is Wanda Baker Palmer.
CE: Okay.
LP: Yeah.
CE: Now you, do you want to tell me about your first wife?
LP: My first wife name was Emma. E.M.M.A. And her family comes from Augusta. I don 't know much
about them at all. But uh, we were, we were married for 17 years. And uh, she became quite religious. I
was, I was a little older than her. I was probably, I was 24 when I married her.
CE: Um hum.
LP: She was going on 17.
CE: Uh huh.
LP: Because of a situation, I stepped up to the plate and said, "Don't worry ' bout it. I'll marry you."
CE: Okay, she was pregnant?
LP: Um hum.
CE: She was 17, you were 24?
LP: Yes.
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: Okay.
LP: I was 23, 24, something like that.
CE: Ya'lllived? Where'd ya'lllive then?
LP: We lived in uh, in 1342 Prospect Avenue.
CE: Ah man. And where was she from?
LP: Bronx.
CE: Okay. I know exactly where that is.
LP: Oh yeah?
CE: You know where Franklin Avenue is?
LP: Yes.
CE: I rode 3rd Street out Alexander, Don't mess with me, [u nc lear]. I worked there in the summer when I
was eighteen and nineteen.
LP: Is that right?
CE: Yeah.
LP: Yeah, that was my stomping ground there before I moved out. Uh, uh, we lived there when the baby
was born, we then moved to 21 0 East I 0211d Street, el barrio. It became el barrio.
CE: You had a son or a daughter?
LP: I had a daughter. Her name was Syteria; S.Y.T.E.R.J.A.
CE: She still living?
LP: Yes, yes. She had three children: Syteria,
CE: And, she had three children?
LP: Yeah.
CE: Syteria had three children?
LP: Yeah. Syteria had, she named her daughter Syteria. First daughter name is Syteria.
CE: Okay. What happened to your first wife?
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: Uh, she um, she passed uh, I guess when she was just shy of 50; between 46 and 40 ... , some,
somewhere in there. But what happened she uh, she got entangled with the, with the uh, with the
religion.
CE: Um hum.
LP: The sanctified and holy.
CE: Um hum.
LP: So that put a rift into our marriage. At that time 1 was working ve1y hard. I had, I had six people to
supp011.
CE: Um hum.
LP: So eighty hours was a
(Doorbell rings)
LP: 1 know who this is. Excuse me.
CE: Um hum.
LP: That's my grass man.
(Brief break in video)
LP: ... Passed in 1972. And when I came here to btuy him,
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... my mom said that. I said, "Mom, I got to sit here while they put the dirt on my clad?" She says,
"Yeah. That's, that's, that's respect." Eve1ybody, at that time, they was into, eve1ybody take one
spoonful of dil1 or one shovelful of dirt and put it on him.
CE: Yeah, oh God.
LP: I, I couldn't. I said, my mom I can't sit here for that. And while I'm sitting there, I said, "You know, I'm
going through hell in my marriage ... "
CE: Um hum.
LP: " ... and he's gone already. I'm not going to go through this forever." Go back and talk to her, if she
can't straighten it out, psst. And, and we did. But New York City is very funny. They called that, even
though I paid the rent. ..
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: Um hum.
LP: I gave her $200 a week for food ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... 1 bought the kids clothes, I took them to the doctor and all of that, they, they called it abandonment.
CE: So you, so you, but you divorced her?
LP: Oh yeah, I, I divorced her right away. I, I, I saw what they were doing so I went on and, and got a
divorce.
CE: Oh yeah. You were being, you were being taken for the, for the, for the okey-doke.
LP: Oh yeah.
CE: And how many kids did ya'll have?
LP: We had five children.
CE: Those the only five kids you got?
LP: Uh, yeah, yeah. And I have two step-children after by my second marriage and my third marriage. Did I
say my, my first daughter name was Syteria?
CE: Um hum.
LP: The next one name was uh, Celeste, C.E.L.E.S.T.E.
CE: C.E.?
LP: C.E.L.E.S.T.E.
CE: Okay.
LP: Celeste.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Then Susan.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And Tracy.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And Leroy. Leroy, Jr.
CE: Your kids all still in New York?
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: Um, all except Tracy. Tracy lives here. She lives in Millen Street.
CE: Okay.
LP: 321 Millen. And Leroy passed away. He had diabetes and uh, a hard head. He was about going to uh,
health food stores and treating it, treating his diabetes
CE: Oh Jesus.
LP: in that way. And uh, I think it overtook him.
CE: That must've been rough.
LP: Yeah, it was hard. You never want, you never think you're going to marry, bury your child.
CE: No.
LP: Especially your youngest. He was hard headed. And the boy had talent.
CE: Um, um, um.
LP: He could look at anything and draw it. I said, "Leroy, even though that's your talent, you have to still go
to school ... "
CE: And study the craft.
LP: " ... and study the, you got to study."
CE: Um hum.
LP: "But I could do it." I tell you, a friend of mine asked him, he, he, did a picture on a horizontal bridge.
And this guy next door said to him, he says, "Leroy, when you did this picture of this bridge, where
were you standing?" He would never answer that question. He says, "Where were you standing?" He
says, "No, you see, I did this here because I wanted to see, show this." He says, "But no, where were
you standing?" I didn't understand why he didn't try to say '"Cause we always drove out there." That
was his point.
CE: Um hum.
LP: "Let's go the bridge." I'll drive him out to the bridge and we sit there and he just walk up and down,
looking at it, looking at it.
CE: Getting visual images.
LP: Yeah, yeah.
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: Wow.
LP: In fact, he started reading at, at one. He, he had so much going for him, so much going for him.
Sometimes, I think he outsmarted himself. He was a great kid.
CE: Okay, uh, now. We confide in ourselves now. We got like, when you were here, everything I want to
hear right now is about being in East Savannah from your recollections.
LP: Okay.
CE: Alright, what was, what was it like in terms of whites and blacks, demographics and ethnicity when you
were growing up in East Savannah?
LP: Everybody here is, was black. As a matter of fact, this whole housing thing here, Strathmore ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: .. . 1 remember when it was built. Probably in the '40s, in the, in the middle '40s, during the end ofthe
War. Prior to that, on Pennsylvania .. .
CE: Is it Stratmore or Strathmore? What is it?
LP: I think its Stratmore. S.T.R.A.T.
CE: T.H.?
LP: I don't think it's "H." Is it? I don 't think so.
CE: Okay. Well.. .
LP: Yeah. I don't, I don't remember the spelling right now. But this was uh, a housing, housing for white
people; poor whites. And they come over here, the kids that were our age, we just played, like regular
kids, it was no problem. So, we didn't have that kind of, of torrential thing going on.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Because the area, if you over there, Delaware, those whites thought that they were doing great.
CE: Um hum.
LP: See that's Twickenham and Gordonston and all of that. They thought they were living. So they didn't
bother us. Then a lot of people in this area worked for them as uh, domestic workers and whatever.
CE: Upper level whites?
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: Yes. Yes, yes, ' cause I know um, my mom worked for people that, whose name was Ireland. He had a
little seed store there on Barnard Street.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Between City Market and Broughton. He sold, he just sold feed. That's all he sold. Then, then he went
out of business.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Uh, urn, the, our church here-First African Baptist- most people here went to that church. And that
church had, this, this something, which you probably know about. Uh, the people from here used to
walk down to Monterey Square to First African Baptist. And then they, one day they asked them, say
"Listen. Will, will you give us a chatter so we make a church in East Savannah where we live and save
this walk evety time?'' And, they gave them a charter.
CE: Let me get that.
LP: Yeah.
CE: You, you mean Franklin Square.
LP: Yeah, Frank, Franklin Square? That's what. What did I say, Monterey Square?
CE: Um hum.
LP: Excuse me. They gave them a charter and when I came back here in '94, '95, somewhere in there, we
reenacted that. We went down one Sunday morning, and we went there and they got up in church and
said, "Mr. Chairman. I'd like to take a, a charter to East Savannah because it's such a long walk for the
parishioners. Some of the older people can't make it." What they do, they come back and they had a
little prayer house where they would give them the prayer that they had when they were down there.
But, by doing that here, they were about to get a church. This church is I II years old.
CE: Decided, "And to give them a charter?"
LP: Yes. They asked them to give them a charter.
CE: And they did?
LP: Oh, they did.
CE: "And they did in nineteen .. . ?"
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Palmer, Leroy
LP: Well, Ill.
CE: Ill, let's see. 2008. Seven. Okay. In 1897.
LP: Um hum. And I don't remember any big conflicts here between whites and blacks. Uh, as a matter of
fact, the white kids that played with us over here.
CE: Um hum.
LP: When my mom fed us, she fed them too.
CE: Okay, let me catch that.
LP: Yeah. If she made us sandwich, they got a sandwich too.
CE: I got something to tell you.
LP: Hm?
CE: Same thing happened in my neighborhood.
LP: There it is.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Same as ours. Now, this is, I'm, I'm talking now up until about 12 or 13.
CE: Um hum.
LP: After the teenage years, they seemed to disappear.
CE: Same thing here.
LP: Yeah. They, they, they ... But, all between like 8 and like, 12 and 13,
CE: Um hum.
LP: they come over here, they be in here and we' II listen to the radio. We used to have a show, The Fat
Man.
CE: Um hum.
LP: "There he walks into the house, he steps on the scale, his, his weight is whatever, his f011une is danger."
We listened to this together.
CE: Um hum.
LP: So they probably didn't have a radio. We had a Grumman that my grandfa, that my uncle left for my
mom. It stand up.
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: Um hum.
LP: We didn't, we didn't say we hit it but after so many years you can't say that stuff. But that's a big one
like this here. And then you could go to short wave by flipping the switch.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Go to short wave.
CE: Okay. Ya'll, so ya'll, we had a big what? I know what you talking about. Those big 'ole things. "We
had a ... ?"
LP: A Grundage.
CE: Grundage?
LP: Yeah, but just, what was it, grundage?
CE: Radio?
LP: Yeah. Used to have football fights.
CE: "And big console."
LP: Right.
CE: 'Cause in 1952 I was like, prizefighting. When I was a little, even a little kid, I was about 7 years old.
And our neighbors had a, we listened to Ezzard Charles ...
LP: Yes sirree.
CE: .. . fight Rocky Marciano.
LP: Yeah.
CE: That was a wonk.
LP: And he, he put something on him too.
CE: Split his nose in two.
LP: Put something on him. Yeah.
CE: They should've stopped it.
LP: Yeah they should've, they should've.
CE: That Rock Marciano was a rock though.
LP: That's right.
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Palmer, Leroy
CE: He split his nose in two.
LP: Yeah. J heard, I heard Joe Louis when he knocked out Schmeling.
CE: Wow. You heard it on the same radio?
LP: Yeah, same radio. Used to get like, it'd be, in and out.
CE: Uh huh.
LP: (makes fading in and out noises) But we heard it, we heard it.
CE: Right here in this house, right?
LP: Right here. Right here. Of course, what we did here
CE: That was in '39?
LP: That must've been .. . See, I was like, I was 6 in '38.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And I was in school already. So I was becoming aware, becoming aware. And, and my dad went to
work for the um, shipyard. In fact, my dad used to work for Mingledorf. He was Mingledorf chauffeur.
And I don't remember, you know, you would hear isolated situations.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Where, where wild white kids come out, nine of 'em in a car riding 'round doing silly things but,
nothing, they didn't hurt anybody,
CE: Um hum.
LP: they didn't burn anybody, they didn't throw any cocktails or nothing.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Just they get like off track for a second.
CE: Mingledorfuh, uh, was shipyard, own the shipyard didn't he?
LP: Yeah. Right over here.
CE: And that was his son that became mayor?
LP: It must've been, I, I don' t know that much of it but uh ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... they were .. .
19
Palmer, Leroy
CE: He committed suicide eventually.
LP: Yeah. They kinda hand things down to each other.
CE: Um hum.
LP: They didn 't even like, they didn't even let poor whites get in the middle of it.
CE: I know. What did, what did, what did ya'll do for leisure time?
LP: Leisure time. We, the kids made their own leisure. But they had construction for you, they had
instruction for you uh, with church. We had Sunday school, II :00 service, on a certain Sunday,
CE: you go back at 3:00 for, for communion. Then you go back at 6, 7:00 for night service. You had it going
on there. And uh, as far as playing uh, we made our own things. We played half-rubber.
CE: Okay.
LP: We played baseball. We used to go outside and get four, four guys on each side, so you played I stand
2"d, you played 3rd and 41
h, 3rd and home. You, you don't have no catcher.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Anybody get the ball throw it back to you.
CE: Played half-rubber,
LP: Yeah.
CE: baseball. How ' bout football?
LP: Football we did when we were getting older, like in our teens maybe. We played, and Harold, Harold is
a good runner. He was skinny and wiry. He, he could run; knees high. Yeah, we, we played that over on,
the area we used to call The Diamond. Now it's all built up but uh, at that time, it was quite open.
CE: He was fast?
LP: Oh he was fast. He was good, he was good. Harold also is a ve1y good pool player. He, he, he could
shoot because he shoot vel)' slow, you think the ball's not gonna make it. He 's good, he's good. Uh, we
used to, in fact, I started playing golf out here. Uh, we would say, take ten guys ...
CE: Um hum.
20
Palmer, Leroy
LP: ... take one club. We make a hole, say 25 feet from each hole. Put, put up a nickel and we all used the
same club each time we go to each hole. And, we come out a winner. One guy may make .35 cents, one
guy would make .50 cents.
CE: Um hum.
LP: That's how we started playing golf.
CE: And they had a three-hole golf course out here right?
LP: No. No, we just made our own holes.
CE: But eventually, they did.
LP: Yeah, we could have three, four,
CE: No, I' m saying but eventually they had a three-hole golf course out here.
LP: I don 't remember that one.
CE: That's what Harold told me.
LP: Harold. Oh, the one on here?
CE: Urn hum.
LP: See, now that could've been after I left.
CE: It was after you left.
LP: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CE: Urn hum. See, after 1950, you didn't come back.
LP: No. I didn ' t come. See, see Harold came back and soaked up everything 'cause he came right back and
married a girl whose, whose sister now just went to work uh, uh,
CE: Ola.
LP: Ola.
CE: She took over at Southwestern 'cause that
LP: She took over, yeah, for that guy
CE: Was that a black woman over there with all that foolish stuff?
LP: I got a feeling not. You know why, 'cause Southwest Middle is, is, is,
CE: Um hum, that's out Wilmington Island like, right?
21
Palmer, Leroy
LP: Yeah.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And, they
CE: But they had a black principal out there one time; a black guy.
LP: No, no it's a woman out this, now.
CE: Okay. But they reassigned her.
LP: Yes. Yes, its, on TV. They said they can't fire people, they have to reassign them. But what they do is,
to make their end look good, you say, a kid not doing good, uh, okay uh, they, they override. They
override the teacher. Actually, teachers really need an ombudsman. Teachers in trouble.
CE: Well you know, Chatham County is backwards.
LP: Yes.
CE: My wife worked in Beauf01t County for 34 years. Those people are avant-garde over there.
LP: Really?
CE: Oh yeah.
LP: That's great.
CE: Yeah, yeah. Let meum, the, what, what uh, you remember any stores around here when you were a kid?
LP: Melvina.
CE: Go ahead.
LP: Yeah. That store you came by on the corner of Gwinnett and Treat? There, there, there 's a two-story
building there. That was Ms. Melvina Ladsen. She had the only store here in East Savannah. Now mind
you, some people made a little thing in their house ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... and through the window, they sell treats and ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: .. . what they call them other things? Them things they put on a stick and put icing on?
CE: Thrills?
LP: They did that. But she had the official store. In fact, a lot of us even had a book with her.
22
Palmer, Leroy
CE: Um hum.
LP: You go there, and you go on the book and Ms., and Ms. Lad sen let you put it on the book unti I your
money comes or whatever. Yeah, she .. .
CE: I know 'bout that.
LP: Yeah, she, she was uh, she was terrific. In fact, she was our pianist for the, for the Junior Choir, Ms.
Ladsen. She had, it's, it's upstairs there, when you go back past, you' ll see it's on that, stand on the
corner. The Moultrie, Moultrie people bought it now.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Murray, did you get anything out of him? Murray?
CE: I got him down to talk to him.
LP: Yeah, William, William Moultrie?
CE: I got, wait a minute. I'll tell you. I' ll tell you in a minute. Uh, I got Bernard Moultrie.
LP: Bernard, yeah okay. Bernard, that's, that's a cousin.
CE: Okay.
LP: But how 'bout William?
CE: And I got Ben Moultrie.
LP: That's, that's, that's, that's Benjamin. He's up on Gwinnett Street.
CE: Um hum.
LP: But, but, you need William Moultrie. He is plumber. He, his mother married a man from Hilton Head
named Cohen.
CE: Um hum.
LP: And Mr. Cohen taught William and Edward how to plumb, plumb. And that's all they do.
CE: Wow.
LP: The kids are good. And his kids, he's got about 7 or 8 kids. I mean 6'5 is sh01t; they're all big.
CE: Great day.
LP: Plus,
CE: Ms., Ms. Ladsen was ya' ll church pianist?
23
Palmer, Leroy
LP: Yes. Yes. You know, um, uh, uh, Murray, Murray just went into the Hall of Fame, for football. I think
he was a guard or a tackle for Beach. And he just went, he just had an inducted, he was inducted into the
Hall of Fame.
CE: Hm.
LP: Recently.
CE: Now you said that most people they worked as, you say, domestics, and um,
LP: A lot of the women worked for these people.
CE: Uh huh. What did the men do?
LP: The men, uh, I' ll give you this street. On this street it was this house, now my dad, my dad always tried
to be in business. Dad never could fund it but he always in business. He sold ice, wood, coal, his last
endeavor was fuel. And then in between that, he, he, he drove for Mingledorf during the War. And then
he also worked over here at the Bible Baptist or something as their uh, caretaker. That's in between
doing his regular, trying to keep anoat. Then, at that time, this house was here. Uh, down the street here,
CE: Um hum.
LP: uh, Mr. George Morrell, he worked for a tugboat company. And the, and the lady you're going to go
see, Ms. Manigault, she live across the street from them, her husband was a um, um, what is it? A
merchant seaman.
CE: Um hum.
LP: That's basically, on this side of the street,
CE: Um hum.
LP: these were the three houses. Eve1ything else was just growth. 'Cause we played, we played on them
woods over there. We had a little tree house, not tree house, but like a little cardboard thing that we used
for a house and stuff and, our um, what do you call it? Our office. And our den. And then there's a, then
down here uh, there was a little house there, as you come down, there's a big house on the, straight in
the corner. There was a little house there like a half a house. That man lived there, he didn't have any
children.
CE: Um hum.
24
Palmer, Leroy
LP: And he was a carpenter.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Next to him, was a man named ...
CE: We still on this street? Iowa?
LP: Yeah, on, on Iowa Street. But that, that house is not there anymore. In fact, that big house that you see
when you come straight down Treat...
CE: Um hum.
LP: . .. that's, that's property, bought up and changed.
CE: Okay.
LP: Then just, just past him was a man name Mr. George Lee, he worked on the docks. Okay. Then going
down that, this same street. ..
CE: Um hum.
LP: .. . the last man down there was Mr. Fishburne. I don't know what he did. It was only him and his wife.
Tall man, you just see going and coming.
CE: Yeah. You don't know what he did?
LP: Don't know what he did.
CE: Well, we'll just kill him offthen.
LP: See, and that's basically this whole street in 1940, '42, '43, '45.
CE: Late '30s 'til 19', 19', until the early '40s, until the early '40s?
LP: Yeah.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Yeah, I, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. That's about it for this street. Oh, another house was on the right hand side. A
lady lived there, Ms. Sally, Ms. Sally, who was, who is Bernard's aunt, grand-aunt.
CE: Um hum.
LP: She didn't have no husband. I think something 'bout, 'bout her husband died in a fire.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Down at the Purell something. I think. 'Cause she never, she never had no husband.
25
Palmer, Leroy
CE: Um hum.
LP: As I was a kid. She
CE: Purell was a place some people worked at in East Savannah?
LP: Yeah, down in LePageville. Did anybody give you Vernell Coleman?
CE: U m tun.
LP: Alright. Vernell Moultrie Coleman was the first black principal at May Howard. That's my first cousin.
CE: I'm going to talk them, I'm a, when I talk them Moultries, I'll. ..
LP: Yeah.
CE: Who, all these names I got, I got- Ben Moultrie and I have Bernard Moultrie.
LP: Okay.
CE: Who is the most informative 'cause I don't want to be talking to the same, if they gonna tell me the
same thing.
LP: I think Ben Moultrie is the most informative. Bernard is about in his 40s.
CE: He too young. How old is Ben?
LP: Oh, Ben is 80.
CE: I want to talk to Ben.
LP: Ben just made 80.
CE: I don't want to talk to anybody young.
LP: Yeah.
CE: I'm serious.
LP: I don't blame you.
CE: 'Cause they can't tell me anything.
LP: Yeah. Um, now, Vernell, Vernell is my first cousin. That's my father's ...
CE: Right, now you say in LePageville now. What? LePageville. People telling me, LePageville was what, a
black area?
26
Palmer, Leroy
LP: Yeah. It was a, it was a, it was a black local community. There's a, there's a church there on Waters
Avenue called St. Thomas. It moved when they had moved people out ofLePageville. That faith church
moved there and moved to uh, moved to Waters Avenue.
CE: Now you were telling me about somebody in LePageville. Who was that you were telling me about
now?
LP: Uh ...
CE: A woman you were talking about to me. You were telling me about in LePageville, there was a woman
there that did something.
RF: Vernell.
LP: Oh, no. No, Vernell not from LePageville. Vernell's from East Savannah.
CE: Okay.
LP: But now she lives in Thunderbolt.
CE: Okay.
LP: Her husband is Roosevelt Coleman who is the coach at Johnson.
CE: Yeah. Well, his son kept himself in a lot of hot water didn't he?
LP: See, you know all that stuff.
CE: Give that little girl Norma Jean Harriet a baby, little Asia.
LP: Yeah, he's something.
CE: Pretty little baby.
LP: l-Ie's silly.
CE: Last time I saw that girl though, she blew up.
LP: Something wrong with that boy; Coleman boy.
CE: Yeah, that boy crazy man. I hate to talk about nobody son but something wrong with that boy.
LP: But, I'll tell you, I'll tell you something. Vernell and, and Roosevelt took those two kids and they raised
them. They're not their real children.
CE: Wow.
LP: Yeah.
27
Palmer, Leroy
CE: And it's taking a toll on uh, Roosevelt too.
LP: Yes it is. It's taking a toll.
CE: When you see him man, he look like he's about, he about, he looks, he look like he ain't doing too hot.
LP: Roosevelt is a kid, to, to me. I think he's like in his 60s.
CE: Yeah, he older than me but he like 68, 69 maybe.
LP: That's all. That's all.
CE: Yeah. Uh, I think that about, you got me.
LP: Yeah.
CE: Um.
LP: One thing 1 want to give you on the, on the, in Coleman's case.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Is that um, Vernell is, is my first cousin. That's my father's sister.
CE: Um hum.
LP: Now, Vernell was the principal and her brother Charles, I think he was, on this village, he was the first
graduate if I'm not mistaken.
CE: Uh huh.
LP: Charles was a math major.
CE: Um hum.
LP: At, at, at uh, Savannah State, at that time called
CE: Georgia State.
LP: Okay. He went into the service, he became a navigator. And he got killed.
CE: Wow.
LP: He got killed.
CE: Now, this is Roosevelt Coleman's wife?
LP: Yes.
CE: Her name is Vernell what?
LP: Vernell Coleman.
28
Palmer, Leroy
CE: Anthing, uh, did she grow up in East Savannah?
LP: Yes sir.
CE: Ah, let me get, you got her number?
LP: Yes.
CE: Please. And you got to give me ...
LP: Yeah, as a matter of fact, East Savannah produced four, five principals. Vernell's a principal. Ward,
Lynette is a principal. Andrea's a principal. Uh, and Debra Jones ...
CE: Um hum.
LP: ... her family's the Roberson family.
CE: Um hum.
LP: She's a principal. Four principals in East Savannah.
CE: Yeah, I talked to her.
LP: Debra?
CE: No, Ranelle.
LP: Oh, okay. Let me, let me get my book.
CE: Okay. I'm a, I think I' ll just write, I think that's about all I need from you.
LP: Okay.
END
City of Sava nna h NOTES
1. Footage is unedited and presented in the form tha t it was recorded.
2. Filmed on the date indicated at the home of the resid ent.
3. Desig nations-- " LP" indicates Leroy Palmer. "RF" indicates Reginald Franklin, the Project
Videographer. "CE" indicates Charles Elmore, the Project Historian.
4. The Church referenced o n page 27 of the interview is located at the corners of Park a nd
Waters Avenues.
29
Interview with Leroy H. Palmer at 2138 Iowa Street, Savannah, Ga 31404 on October 11,
2008
Abstract prepared by Charles J. Elmore, Project Oral Historian
I was born in East Savannah on Waldburg Street. My parents lived in a rented room when I was
bom then they moved into a house across the street. My mother was Rosalee Perry Palmer, and
my father was Earl Palmer. My dad was born in Waycross, Georgia and came to Savannah as a
young man. This house- 2138 Iowa Street- was built by Henry Perry, my maternal grandfather,
in 1910. He left the house to my mother when he died. Isaac Green, my uncle, raised my mother
and his five kids at 2138 Iowa Street. I purchased 2138 Iowa Street three months ago from some
men from Detroit, Michigan who remodeled the house. The house changed ownership over the
years. I last lived at 2138 Iowa Street in August, 1950, the year I graduated from high school and
entered the United States Army.
I went to Powell Laboratory School in 193 8 on the campus of Georgia State College (now
Savannah State University). In my first, second, and third grade classes -Harold Baker (now
Reverend Harold Baker) was my classmate. Harold Baker and I grew up together in East
Savannah. Ms. Pollard was one of my teachers and Mrs. Mattie B. Payne was the principal of
Powell Laboratory School. William K. Payne, her husband, was the dean at Georgia State
College. He would later become president of what is now Savannah State University. I graduated
from Alfred E. Beach High School in 1950.
I went to the army and mustered out in Virginia. I went on a vacation to New York City. I stayed
in New York for 45 years; married and raised five children there. My first wife's name was
Enuna, and her family was from Augusta, Georgia. We were married seventeen years. She was
seventeen, and I was twenty- four. She became pregnant and I married her. We lived at 1342
Prospect Avenue in the Bronx, New York. We moved to 210 E. 10211d Street when Syteria, our
daughter and oldest child of five children (Celeste, Susan, Tracy, and Leroy Jr.) was born.
Syteria died when she was fifty years old, and had tluee children. Emma, my first wife, became
very religious and this distracted from our marriage. We had irreconcilable differences in our
marriage. After my dad died in 1972, I divorced Emma, my first wife. Two children from my
first marriage live in New York. My daughter Tracy lives in Savannah. I went to work for the
New York Transit Authority as a tower operator for twenty - one years and nine months. I
retired from the New York Transit Authority in 1984. I knew that I did not want to stay in New
York, but I waited until my second wife retired. In the meantime, I worked for OTB (Off Track
Betting) and then as a limousine driver. My wife did not want me to work as a limousine driver
because it involved being away from home overnight at times. In 1994, my second wife and I
came back to Savannah. I met my second wife in New York, but she was a native of Sapelo
Island, Georgia. We were married for twenty- six years when she died in November 2000 in
Savannah. I have two step-children from my second marriage.
When we returned to Savannah, I enrolled in Savannah State University at the age of sixty -
nine. Charles Elmore was one of my teachers at Savannah State University. I graduated from
Savatmah State University in 2001. After my second wife died in 2000, I met Wanda Baker
Palmer, a great girl, who was a member of the well- known Baker family of East Savannah.
1
Wanda is my friend Harold Baker's brother's daughter. We were married seven months after my
second wife died. During my matriculation at Savannah State University, I went on an
educational tour to Ghana, West Africa, and discovered so many wonderful things about African
and African American heritage.
In 2002, after graduation from Savannah State University, 1 started substitute teaching in the
Savannah/Chatham County Public School System. Currently, I am a paraprofessional at Robert
W. Gadsden Elementary School working with special education children. In 2004, I worked at
Juliette Gordon Low Elementary School one on one with Herman, an autistic child. Today,
Herman is doing very well in school. When I initially worked with Herman, he was disruptive
and not coherent verbally. I found that he liked to spell rather than speak in sentences so 1 spelled
out everything to him. I had Herman for a year in a contained class of six students, but I worked
exclusively with him. I was his paraprofessional. He is in a mainstream class now as I was
successful in getting Herman to talk, read, and write coherently.
Everybody who lived in East Savarmah was black. I remember when Strathmore was built in the
1940s for low- income whites. The young white children in Strathmore played with us. There
were upper economic level whites living in Twickenham and Gordonston, and many black
women worked as domestics in the white homes there. As a child I do not remember any
conflicts between whites and blacks. In fact, my mother would feed white and black kids at our
house. All kids, black and white, would come to our house to listen to the radio. We had a
Grundig radio in a huge furniture console. I remember listening to our Grundig radio when Joe
Louis knocked out Max Schmeling in 1938. My dad drove as a chauffeur for Mr. Mingledorf,
owner of the Mingledorfplace at the Savannah shipyard.
Kids made their own leisure time. We attended church and Sunday school at 11 a.m.; regular
church services, and then night services. We played half - rubber and baseball. Harold Baker
was skinny and wiry, and he was a very fast nmner. Harold Baker was also a very good billiards
player. We played baseball on the Diamond. We all played golf on the black tluee hole golf
course in the area of the Diamond, and used the same golf club. Ms. Melvina Ladson, a black
women, owned the only store in East Savannah. Many black families had a book with her that
allowed them to charge groceries and pay Ms. Ladson when they received their pay checks. She
was also the church pianist at First African Baptist Church of East Savmmah.
The men on Iowa Street had various occupations. My dad sold ice, wood, coal, and fuel oil. He
also worked as a caretaker at Bible Baptist. Mr. George Morrell worked for a tugboat company.
Mrs. Corinthia Manigault's husband was a merchant seaman. There were only tlu·ee houses on
Iowa Street in the late 1930s until the 1940s. One man in the neighborhood was a carpenter, and
Mr. George Lee worked on the Savmmah docks. LePageville was also a local black community.
Received by MH on 10/15/2008.
2

DEI'ARTl\IENT OF CU LTURAl.
,\!'FAIRS
Interviewee's Full Name:
Interview's Address:
Interviewee's Neighborhood:
Interviewer:
Date of Interview:
Length of Interview:
Interview Medium:
Transcriptionist:
Date of Staff Review:
Oral His/my Interview
EASTSIDE DOCUMENTATION PROJECT
Reverend Harold Baker
7 LaRoche Court
Savannah, Georgia 31404
East Savannah
Charles J. Elmore
I 0 October 2008
33 minutes, 52 seconds
Video
Samanthis Q. Smalls
December 18, 2008 by MLH
CE: 'Cause John been your neighbor ' bout all that time hadn't he?
HB: Yeah, John moved six months ahead of me.
CE: Great day.
HB: Um hum.
RF: We're ready.
CE: Okay. Reverend Baker. Reverend Harold Baker, Baker. 7 LaRoche Court, Savannah, Georgia 31404.
October 10, 2008. Uh, Reverend Baker, we're going to start this interview by me asking you to tell me,
if you want to, about your early family origins. Where your family came from? Were they original
Savannahians? And, all of this is specifically about your time in East Savannah.
HB: Okay. My parents were born and raised in, in Chatham County. We moved from 5111 Street in Savannah,
Georgia to East Savannah proper, when I was two years old. We were there ever since. In fact we still,
the family home is still there. My maternal grandmother was from Hilton Head, South Carolina. Her
name was, maiden name is Green, Rebecca Green.
CE: Um hum.
HB: I don't know the origin of my uh, paternal grandparents. 1 think, I think my grand, my uh, my father's
mother was from Chatham County. I never did know my, my father's father. But I knew the, I knew his,
I knew his mother. We all lived in East Savannah.
CE: Which street?
EASTSIDE DOCUMENTATiON PROJECT
Baker, Harold
HB: Gwinnett Street. 2 114 East Gwinnett.
CE: And that's from your, from the time you were two until?
HB: Until I was, 'til 1973, then I moved here. But I, I bought a, I bought a home out there too. In 1963 I
think it was.
CE: Keep on talking. You don't have to wait on me.
HB: 2 109 Hanson Street where I been. From there, from Hanson Street I moved here.
CE: Keep talking. Don't pay me no attention.
l-IB: I have, there were eleven of us children, siblings; seven boys and four girls. Uh, three of my brothers,
three, yeah, have preceded us in, in, in uh, in death. Eight remain, eight are living. Four boys, four girls.
CE: Just keep talking, don't wait on me just tal k.
HB: Okay.
CE: Don't wony about it 'cause I want, I want you to be fluid so we can use you on, you know,
HB: Okay.
CE: so keep talking. So, uh now, tell me the schools, just keep on talking.
HB: Okay.
CE: Don't pay attention to me.
HB: Elemental)' school - I went to Power Lab. Located on the, on the campus of Savannah, now Savannah
State College. lt was Georgia State College then. I guess from 1937 ' til I graduated from elemental)'
school, whatever the year that was. For one year 1 went to um, Saint Benedict's Catholic School. And
after that, I went to Beach-Cuyler.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And I graduated from, I was the second class to graduate from, from the then new Beach High School
on Hopkins Street in 1950. I finished high school on August the thirtieth. I joined the Army August the
thirty-first, 1950, three clays out of high school. Didn't, didn't have any, any other place to go. Couldn't
go, couldn't afford to go to college; my father couldn't afford to send me to college, my mother
couldn't. So uh, we joined the, we joined the militmy; Palmer and ! joined the same clay. Went through
basic tra ining together. Went to Korea together. And they split us up after we got to Korea. Um, spent
2
Baker, Harold
three years in the Army. And uh, I got, I got married while I was, let's see, I got married while I was in
the Army, in 1952 to Ruth M. Hamilton.
CE: Okay.
HB: I started college in uh, 1 forgot, must've been the Fall of January, the Fall of one of'em, 1973. '73? No,
no, not '73, I'm sony.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Uh, '54.
CE: Okay.
HB: I was, I was discharged from the Army uh, August 30, 1953 . I stayed in the service three years, three
years. I enrolled, I enrolled at Savannah State College in the winter of um, 1954. I went, it could've
been the Fall, I don't know.
CE: Okay, we got you, I got you. Keep on going.
HB: Okay.
CE: Talking good.
HB: Okay. I um, I completed the four years as a night student. Never did uh, graduate, matriculated. My
other education, American .. .
CE: You didn't graduate?
HB: I didn't graduate, no. American Theological Center, Nashville, Tennessee, extension school.
CE: Attended.
HB: Yeah, attended.
CE: Give it, give it to me agai n.
HB: I, I beg your pardon.
CE: Give me the name of it.
HB: American Baptist Seminary.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And I also attended uh, uh, not Morehouse but um, it was under Morehouse at that time. ITC,
Interdenominational ...
3
Baker, Harold
CE: Um hum.
HB: .. . Theological Center. That's my, that's my educational background.
CE: Okay.
HB: Post uh, high school.
CE: Alright, where were you ordained, ordained a minister?
HB: I was ordained in
CE: That's important.
HB: 1950, '50, '54.
CE: Um hum.
HB: at First African Baptist Church, East Savannah. But, I, I was licensed then; l was ordained in 1956.
Same place, First African Baptist Church, East, East Savannah. My first um, pastorate was um,
Macedonia Baptist Church; Reynolds and 31st Street, 3 L st, 30, yeah, I think it was. It's been so long ago.
Second pastorate was Beth Eden Baptist Church; 302 East Gordon Street. Stayed there 9 Y2 years. My
third pastorate of charge was um, Second Ebenezer Baptist Church. Stayed there 35 years and retired.
CE: When did you retire?
HB: Retired October. ..
CE: Um hum.
l-IB: ... or September, last of September, 19, uh 2003.
CE: Okay. Where's your church located? I spoke there once, didn't I?
l-IB: l think so, oh yeah, yes you did. That's
CE: It's in Hitch Village wasn't it?
HB: Yeah, Hitch Village. 800 Colbert Street.
CE: 8?
HB: 800 Colbert. C.O.L.B.E.R.T.
CE: Okay.
HB: Now when l was a boy, I guess I'll back up a little bit.
CE: That's alright.
4
Baker, Harold
HB: When I was a boy, East Savan1uih was, was um, in the county. It was not, it was not a part of the City of
Savannah. It was the county. Didn't have no streetlights, no, no paved roads, no running water, no in,
uh, in house plumbing. Outhouse and pump on the outside. It's, its, its amazing that we're not dead
because we had ...
CE: Um tllll.
HB: We had the pig, we had the pigpen, the outhouse, and the pump. The outhouse was, was between the
pigpen and the pump, so it's amazing we're not dead. But anyway, that's the way it was. Um, my father,
I think he bought the first radio, as I can remember, in 1939. A battery radio, had a big 'ole battery, you
had to have an, an antenna; we used to ca ll it an aerial. Went out of the window and up on the roof.
When I was a boy, I used to frequent um, my grandmothers', my two grandmothers' house, houses.
When I was a, while I was still a youngster, my, my grandfather, my, my, my paternal, maternal
grandfather died. I remember him, Hamilton Mitchell. Did I give you the name of my, my mother and
father?
CE: Um tun.
HB: My mother's, my mother's name was Mamie Mitchell Baker.
CE: Let me get that, let me get that. Okay.
HB: My father's name was Benjamin Baker, Sr. You want, you want the name of my deceased brothers?
CE: No.
HB: Okay.
CE: Just your mom and dad is all, that's good. It's all good. Okay, keep on, keep on rolling. You doing real
good.
HB: Alright, so what else I need to tell you? I told you I stayed three years in the militmy, the Army?
CE: Um hum. You told me.
HB: Okay.
CE: Okay.
HB: Fifteen months in, in Korea dming the time of the war. I went to Japan, went to Korea in 19-, Janumy
of 1951. Right after the Chinese uh, pushed the Americans back over the 3 8
111 parallel.
5
Baker, Harold
CE: Wow.
HB: I was in Korea. We were, Palmer and I were. I been, always been a lifelong member of First African
Baptist Church, East Savannah. I was baptized in 1945. You, you'll have to piece that together.
CE: No. I'm fine.
HB: Okay.
CE: "A lifelong member."
HB: Lifelong member. Still a member there. I was baptized by the Reverend, Reverend William C.
Cunningham. Long deceased. My father worked in the, worked at the, at the DeSoto Hotel as a porter,
until 1942, until the war broke out. And then he became a Pullman Porter. And I, I guess he worked, he
worked that job, the Pullman Porter job, until around nineteen fifty-something I guess. My mother was a
domestic worker. We had one store in, in East Savannah. Uh, what's Ms. Sweet last, Ms. Sweet first, at
that time it was um, oh my goodness. It wasn't Luke. She later married Luke.
CE: It was a black store? One black store?
HB: Black store. One, yeah one, yeah one black store. Corner ofuh, Treat and Gwinnett. (calls out) Ruth,
Ruthie Mae? I'm trying to remember her name. Ladsen. Ladsen. Ladsen Grocery Store. Boy, she sold
about everything you could buy I guess, up that side.
CE: Um, wow.
HB: Kerosene and so forth 'cause you didn't have any lights, electricity. Ladsen Grocery Store. I remember
buying up a nickel worth of liverwurst, a nickel, a nickel wmth ofum, bologna, two bales ofum, sweet
rolls for a nickel.
CE: Five cents worth for liverwurst. Oh, I bet that was good?
HB: Yeah, it was good back then. It's no good anymore. It doesn't taste the way it did years ago. Was, for
fifteen cents, you could get a meal. Fifteen cents. Now my father used to, used to buy all of his groceries
in bulk from Laskey's Grocery Store on McDonough and East Broad. That's way, way before your
time.
CE: Oh yeah. That's Laskey's what now?
HB: Laskey's Grocery Store. You didn't have no supermarket then. Well, you did have A, A&P.
6
Baker, Harold
CE: Um hum.
HB: Used to be on um, Bolton and Hannon.
CE: Okay, give me, Laskey's was located where?
HB: McDonough and um, East Broad.
CE: McDonough?
HB: McDonough and East, East Broad, yeah. Right down the street from Steele's Funeral Home.
CE: That's my granduncle.
HB: Yeah?
CE: Urn hum.
HB: No wonder you got all that money.
CE: No. Reggie and I are both Steele's.
HB: Yeah?
CE: Um hum.
HB: Yeah, Mr. Steele was somebody. He trained every um, funeral director, just about, let's see: Sidney A.
Jones ...
CE: They were in business together as early as 1946.
HB: ... Bynes. Yeah?
CE: Um hum.
HB: Okay. Yep, he trained, he trained most of the morticians in Savannah. They worked for Mr. Steele.
CE: What about the demographics, and segregation, and people in the area? Did any white people live by?
Or just all black people?
HB: You, you, you had white people lived in a area called Twickenham. And what's the other one?
Twickenham is on the, was on the uh, the west of East Savannah. And Gordonston, Twickenham and
Gordonston.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Real rich folk lived in Gordonston. And I guess what you called the common whites lived in
Twickenham. And there 's a, the another, the east side of East Savannah was called, I be dog, I can't.
7
Baker, Harold
But East Savannah, whenever you read the paper now any uh, East Savannah, as far as we were
concemed ran from Bolton Street on the south to Jones Street on the north. Bordered by Long Avenue
on the east, and I forgot the name of the street out there on the west, on the west side. That was East
Savannah. And whenever we think of, whenever we speak of East Savannah ...
CE: Um hum.
HB: ... that's the um ...
CE: You say Long Avenue on the east?
HB: Long Avenue, yes, Long Avenue on the east?
CE: Um hum.
HB: I think its Long Avenue.
CE: Okay.
HB: Either east, east or west, but anyway. One of them.
CE: Okay. This is what white, this was what, what blacks considered East Savannah?
HB: That's East, that's black, that's right. You didn't have any, any, any whites in, in East Savannah.
CE: Okay. I got another question here. Uh, were there people in the community who were concerned with
Civil Rights?
HB: Oh yes.
CE: Can you, can you give me some recollections to your?
HB: Well, I, I, I was a part of the movement. Um, I worked with Mr. Law. In fact, I was um, I was uh,
Chairman of voter registration for awhile then Chairman of labor um, under Mr. Law.
CE: What? Give me some dates and times.
HB: Ah man, I can't go back that far. You remember seeing a picture in the Herald a few weeks ago of
preachers marching?
CE: Um um, I haven't read it.
HB: Well, it's, it's, it's been over, over two months ago now.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And um ...
8
Baker, Harold
CE: So you worked with him in the Civil Rights Movement?
HB: Civil Rights Movement, yeah. And on, on that, on that front page of the Herald, Joseph Lowery, P.
Harold Gray, he was president at the time ofl.M.A, Benjamin Gay .. .
CE: Um hum.
HB: myself, 1 was vice, vice president, whatever that, 1960.
CE: In the, in the '60s? In the early, in the '60s?
HB: Whenever, yeah, ' 60s, yeah.
CE: Okay. I got yeah.
HB: Or during, or during the boycott period. Then we, we picketed uh, Barga in Corner. Remember Bargain
Corner?
CE: Um hum. Um hum.
HB: And I worked, I, I, I worked for the Post Office.
CE: Okay.
HB: Um, in 1954 I slatted working for the Air Force.
CE: Alright, let me, let me, just give me the chronology now. In I9-...
HB: ' 50, 1954.
CE: Um hum.
HB: I started working with the Air Force Storage station in Garden City, State P01t.
CE: The U.S. Air Force
HB: Storage Station ...
CE: Um hum.
HB: ln Garden City. At um, the uh, facility was on State, State Port. 1958, I transferred from ...
CE: Was this is a federal job?
HB: Federal job, yes - Transferred from uh, the Air Force warehouse, storage station to ...
CE: In 1950?
HB: '58.
CE: Um hum.
9
Baker, Harold
HB: To U.S. Post Office, Postal Service. I stayed there until! retired with disability in 1973.
CE: Okay. Alright.
HB: Alright. My state affiliation in terms of um, church, was New Era Missionary Baptist Convention of
Georgia. And 1 served as president of that ...
CE: New Era Baptist Convention?
HB: Yeah. New Era, E.R.A., Era.
CE: Um hum. I spoke there before.
HB: You did?
CE: Oh yeah.
HB: I was president from 1996, to see, 1996.
CE: You were state president?
HB: I was state president, yeah. For two years.
CE: From 19- ?
HB: Must be 1996 to 1999, something like that.
CE: Okay. Yeah, 'cause Reverend Ellis is a good friend of mine worked at church history. I remember ...
HB: Yeah, Ellis.
CE: ... going there.
HB: is one of the vice, vice presidents.
CE: Um hum. New Era, yeah, know about it.
HB: Yeah.
CE: Um, all those preachers you called, 1 know ' bout them too from all that writing in my books ...
HB: Yeah, okay.
CE: ... and stuff. I researched a lot of that.
HB: Shell, Quarterman,
CE: Um.
HB: Brooks,
CE: Yeah.
10
Baker, Harold
HB: Whitehead, they were all founders.
CE: E.P. Quatterman boy.
HB: Yeah, E.P. Quarterman, yeah.
CE: Um hum. Go head on, let me stop.
HB: My good friend. Ah, what else you want to know?
CE: Let me, ask me, tell me about, I was very concerned, or very curious when I wrote a book ca lled All
That Sm•m11wh Jazz .from Brass Bands, Vaudeville, to Rhythm and Blues about ten years ago now
almost. And one of the things I remember writing about was in 1956 when at the Sports Center, this
rhythm and blues revue came. And they had Clyde McPhatter, um, um, the um, Frankie Lyman and the
Teenagers. And the blacks went in the mornings and then the whites went at night. And they had uh, the
guy, Bill Haley and the Comets doing "Rock Around the Clock." You remember that?
HB: I, I remember the song, "Rock Around the Clock."
CE: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
CE: What did people do for leisure and entertainment in the area? In East Savannah?
HB: In East, we had a, we had about a three-hole golf club in East Savannah. And the fellows who played
golf, most of us, most of us were, were uh caddies at that time. We all went to the golf course, especially
on Saturdays to caddie, to make a little, little extra money.
CE: That was Savannah Golf Course?
HB: No, yeah, Savannah Golf Course.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Uh,
CE: They did like, let blacks, blacks to go there did they?
HB: Oh no, they didn't allow blacks go there. That, they would allow us to play on Mondays. And um,
believe or not, the white players would lend the, lend them- their caddies- their um, their golf bags to
play golf at, at Savannah Golf Club. Then we had, well they played baseball, footba ll sometimes, but
mostly baseball. A place called The Diamond. It's been taken over now by Housing.
11
Baker, Harold
CE: "At The Diamond." Where's that located?
HB: The Diamond was located from Gwinnett Street on the south to now what is called Moseley Street on
the north. From Treat Street,
CE: Wait a minute. Um hum.
HB: Now The Diamond and, and the three-hole golf, gott: golf uh, club ...
CE: Um hum.
HB: ... was in, was all in, in the same area.
CE: Okay, golf course.
HB: Golf course and The Diamond and stills, had liquor stills there, in that area also. They made liquor.
Treat Street was on the west and um .. .
CE: They had illegal liquor, liquor stills and everything?
HB: Oh yeah, yes sir. Had a lot of 'em, a lot 'em down that side. In fact I had a uncle, he, he played football
and at that time, he got his chest crushed. And they didn't take, he, he didn't get proper medical
attention and he developed TB and died. l had uncles to make liquor.
CE: They made it and sold it?
HB: Made it and sold it. Everybody knew what was going on but, you know, they kept it quiet.
CE: Okay.
HB: Now um, we didn't have too many, something happened to me. I was, when l was in high school, I was
working for a white man who ran a, a, a, a pool parlor, billiard parlor.
CE: Um hum. What was the name?
HB: Lovelady. He, he was from um, he was from Ohio. What pa1t of Ohio? Uh, he was from um, oh that's
been so many years ago. But he slapped me.
CE: Good God.
HB: Because um, he, he, he'd gotten his head bad, got his head bad. And he asked me a question and I told
him it wasn't, you know, I told him. And then he hit me and said, "Don't call me a liar." When I got
home, my, my face was swollen. This says something about, about my father. And he noticed that, and
he took me back up there that same night to confront this white man. Now that was something else.
12
Baker, Harold
CE: Oh yeah.
HB: And he apologized to my father for hitting me. My daddy was a man, he was a real man.
CE: Yeah, he was a man.
HB: Yeah, a real man. I thought that, I thought that that wou ld be kind of interesting to you.
CE: Oh yes. Been like that night when a cop tried to stop me one night in front of my house and my daddy
came out and had him to bring a officer to watch out.
HB: Hm.
CE: Oh yeah.
HB: We used to um, when we were in high school, we had to either walk or catch the bus to go to East Broad
and Gwinnett Street. No, to go to high, to go, go to Cuyler.
CE: Okay.
HB: Beach Cuy ler.
CE: Um hum.
HB: Later on, they gave us a bus. We had to, they took us to East Broad and Gwinnett. And we had to walk
from East Broad and Gwinnett to Beach-Cuyler over on Cuyler Street.
CE: Took a, had a bus that took you to what?
HB: East Broad and Gwinnett. And that's when evety bus, bus route was segregated, as you probably know.
And I never shall forget um,
CE: That was a city bus though, right?
HB: City bus. City bus. We caught the bus at, at Gwinnett and Pennsylvania Avenue, is where we caught the
bus at. And, as you know, to be seat from the white, white from the front to the back.
CE: Um hum.
HB: And blacks, blacks from,
CE: Um hum.
HB: to the back.
CE: I know. [unc lear] We was there.
HB: Okay.
13
Baker, Harold
CE: I was there when you talking about.
HB: And this, this, this patticular morning we were going to school and one girl sat a seat ahead of a white
person. And this, and this white man got up with a knife in his hand, cussing the girl out. But he really
cussing all of us out. Telling us to get, get on back to the back of the bus where the niggers belong.
CE: Good God.
HB: I know, all, all the best, the best you could do was, was, was to comply. 'Cause he probably could've cut
your head, your head off and .. .
CE: Nothing would happen.
l-IB: And nothing would happen to him.
RF: Let's stop right there for a second, I got to change tapes.
CE: Okay.
RF: Go ahead.
CE: Um, let me see. We covered early family origins, education, demographics/ethnicity, desegregation and
Civil Rights, how leisure time was spent, that's very good. What kind of work did people perform?
Businesses, where did most of the people work? I know you told me your mother and father but, most
blacks?
HB: No, my father. Most blacks worked um, either the golf course, the cemetety. Bonaventure Cemetery, my
uncles worked there. Um, uh, the fertilizer mill on President Street; there were, there were two of them
over there. The rosin, they had a, a, had a rosin factory on President Street. They worked there.
CE: Rosin?
HB: Rosin, yeah.
CE: Uh huh. Or? You said there was two of them.
HB: And during the war, or when the war broke out, lot of'em
CE: In Korea?
HB: No. Second World War.
CE: Uh huh.
HB: Southeastern Shipyard out President Street. It was on President Street, Savannah River.
14
Baker, Harold
CE: Was it longshoremen?
HB: Yeah, you had a few longshoremen, yeah.
CE: Okay.
HB: You had a few of those, you had a few of them out there.
CE: Okay, that's about it.
HB: We had the golf course the, the cemetery.
CE: Um hum.
HB: The fertilizer mills and the rosin mill.
CE: Okay. I believe we got it. Threw me some good stuff?
HB: Yeah.
CE: Now we got to get these ...
END
City of Savannah NOTES
1. Footage is unedited and presented in the form that it was recorded. Breaks represented pa uses or changes in
taping medium.
2. On page 2, the interviewee references Leroy Palmer, a fel low East Savannah neighborhood resident that was also
interviewed for this project.
3. On page 12, the interviewee references "TB" which is an acronym for tubercu losis.
15
DEI'ARTMENT OF CULTURAL
AFFAIRS
Interviewee's Full Name:
Interview's Address:
Interviewee's Neighborhood:
Interviewer:
Date oflnterview:
Length oflnterview:
Interview Medium:
Transcriptionist:
Date of Staff Review:
Oral His!OIJ' Interview
EASTSIDE DOCUMENTATION J>ROJECT
Mrs. Carinthia Shellman Manigault
2115 E. Iowa Street
Savannah, Georgia 31404
East Savannah
Charles J. Elmore
II October 2008
15 minutes, 24 seconds
Video (Reginald Franklin- Videographer)
Samanthis Q. Smalls
Reviewed and corrected by Michelle Hunter on 7 January 2009
CE: Tell me as much as you want to tell me about your early family origins; your mother, your father.
However you want to do it.
CM: Well, my mother was born here in Savannah. My daddy was born in a place called Ogeecheeton, which
is Georgetown now, I think it is.
CE: What was your mother's name?
CM: Sarah Ann Bartow Shellman.
CE: And your dad?
CM: Jake Shellman.
CE: Okay. Just talk.
CM: Oh, oh.
CE: I'm, I'm writing. You just talk. Just tell me all you want to tell me about your family. You have any
brothers or sisters? Whatever.
CM: Well, well I had one sister, she's deceased. And one brother, he's deceased.
CE: Okay. What was uh, what was early, what was family life like when you were a little girl around here?
CM: Well, when we came up, it was, here wasn't nothing but dirt, sand anclum, no lights, you know
electricity and everything, you know?
CE: Umhum.
Manigault, Corinthia
CM: And this uh, we went to school, it was uh, Prayer House which was from First African Baptist Church
right on the next block over there. And after you leave there, we went to Paulsen Street School and from
there, to Cuyler. And at that particular time, the streetcar was running and um, the city limit was um, at
the Catholic station over there. You had to get off there. And the mailbox, we had to walk down there to
the Golf, Savannah Golf Club.
CE: To get your mail?
CM: To get mail, um hum.
CE: Okay.
CM: It wasn' t no telephones out here until about in the '40s I'll say.
CE: What did your dad do?
CM: Uh, he worked to Oelschig Florist, he was a fireman for the, to keep the hothouse warm to keep the
flowers. And my, my mother was a homemaker; she did domestic work.
CE: She worked for white folks?
CM: Yeah.
CE: You know any of the families she worked for?
CM: My uh, the lady name was Ms. Coney.
CE: Okay.
CM: And at that time, we didn't have no [unclear] we just played hopscotch and run-around-the-roses and
bat, you know, hit balls.
CE: Um hum, just keep on talking. I'm writing, I can' t ...
CM: I'm t1ying to think what happened way back then as children you know.
CE: Yeah.
CM: We played, had swings made out of rope.
CE: Did you have any, how were, how were the ... Uh, when you went to uh, Paulsen School, you remember
who was the principal when you were there?
CM: I think Alphonso Roberts. And Ms. Alma Tyson was a teacher there. Ms. Young.
2
Manigault, Corinthia
CE: Okay and you went to, what year did you attend Paulsen, if you can remember? Which grades did you
go to Paulsen?
CM: Paulsen ran to sixth grade ...
CE: Okay.
CM: ... then you left and went over to Cuyler Junior High.
CE: Okay. Okay. You remember anybody who taught you at Cuyler Junior High?
CM: Mrs. Morris, Sarah Morris.
CE: What did you do as a young woman in terms ofum, what kind of work you did or?
CM: Well, I'll tell you I worked as a domestic worker and uh, later on I started sewing; seamstress.
CE: Um hum. Were you ever married?
CM: Yes. Husband is deceased for 30 years.
CE: What'd your husband do? And what was his name?
CM: He was a merchant seaman.
CE: Okay.
CM: Want his name too?
CE: Yes.
CM: George Manigault.
CE: How many years were you married to him.
CM: For 48 years before he passed.
CE: So you got married in uh?
CM: We got married in 1945.
CE: Okay. Do you have any kids?
CM: Miscarriage, that's all.
CE: Okay. Don't worry about that. Alright. Well, I guess your husband traveled all over the world.
CM: Yes he has. You see a lot of those (she points to something in the home).
CE: Wow.
LP: He loved Africa.
3
Manigault, Corinthia
CM: Huh?
LP: He, I said, he loved Africa. Used to tell us all about South Africa, Germany.
CM: Oh yeah, he's been all over the world so J wouldn' t know all those different places.
CE: Yeah. Okay, tell me about uh, please, white people and you know, black people relationship during the
time you were growing up.
CM: Well it wasn't good because it was segregation at that time, you know.
CE: Um hum. Were there any black people in this community that were really fighting for black peoples
rights when you were kids?
CM: A man named Mr. Adam Morrell. He was connected with the NAACP.
CE: Um hum.
CM: And then J have worked in the Civil Rights Movement.
CE: Tell me about it.
CM: Weill picket, walked picket lines. Broughton and Bull, by McCrory. I used to take people to the poll.
I've worked at the poll. I attend all these regular mass meetings during W.W. Law time.
CE: Um hum.
CM: Um hum.
CE: Picketed?
CM: Yeah, picketed.
CE: Um hum. "Attended W.W. Law mass meetings." Wow, this is wonderful. Do you remember, of course
you knew Mr. Law personally?
CM: Yeah.
CE: Um hum.
CM: Um hum. It's account of all those mass meetings on Sundays when, during the Civil Rights Movement.
CE: Um hum. What did you think of him?
CM: He was Mr. Law was a!, he was fine, he was a fine gentleman.
CE: Have you really seen the world ...
CM: Have I?
4
Manigault, Corinthia
CE: ... change in your lifetime?
CM: Yes.
CE: What you think of it?
CM: I think we making progress but there's more need to be done.
CE: What do you think about Obama?
CM: I think he's gone win.
LP: You're too much.
CM: He's a great man. He's intelligent and he's ve1y respectable.
CE: What, what advice would you give to the uh,? When you were, when you were a young woman, did
ya'll, did ya'll have dances or socials?
CM: Yeah, they had ...
CE: Talk about that some for me, what the social life was like.
CM: Well, we had parties you know, there wasn't a place out here to have that. They did have a place called
Madison Hall where we used to assemble at and have uh, pmties.
CE: Where was Madison Hall?
CM: It was on Bolton Street.
CE: And when you say parties, did they have a band?
CM: Well, yes.
CE: Can you remember some of, some of the bands they had? Some of the players?
CM: They called him Freddie Red, I remember him.
CE: Okay.
CM: Um hum.
CE: Freddie Red Frazier.
CM: Yeah. You know him?
CE: Yeah, I wrote a book ...
CM: Uh huh.
CE: ... called All That Savmmah Jazz.
5
Manigault, Carinthia
CM: Yeah.
CE: And Freddie Red, Freddie had a sister too. Tell you that he was piano player.
CM: Yeah. I don't, I don't remember his sister.
CE: Yeah. Freddie Red Frazier. And who else do you remember?
CM: Ray Snipe was a, used to play a saxophone I think.
CE: Um hum. You talking good talking now. Keep on talking. Yeah, I love jazz.
CM: That's right.
LP: Willie Williams.
CM: Who?
LP: Willie Williams.
CM: Willie Williams?
LP: During, during my time.
CM: Your time ain't much better than mines. You up there in '76.
LP: Yeah.
CE: Um, what were the, what were the dances that you all used to do? Did you like dancing?
CM: Yeah.
CE: Tell me some of the dances you liked to do.
CM: Do the bogey wogey.
CE: Bogey wogey.
CM: Yeah. I used to two step and waltz.
CE: They had a, they had dancers called The Lancers too didn't they?
CM: The Lancers? I don ' t remember them.
CE: Yeah. Okay, well this is good. Um, who were the people that you really liked in terms of, let's say,
people in East Savannah, different people you talked to when ya'll were like young people coming up?
Who were some of the nationally known black singers or whatever ya'll liked?
CM: Maggie Morrell. She was a, play, play the organ and she used to sing and I used to admire her.
CE: She was a East Savannah person?
6
Manigault, Corinthia
CM: Yes.
LP: She, she, she used to live across the street.
CM: Yeah, she used to live across the street. She lived to be a old, ripe age.
CE: Um hum. Anything you want to just tell me that I, that really, you think 1 ought to know that maybe I'm
not asking you? Anything? I'm just writing and listening.
CM: Writing and listening. But I'm trying to think 'cause it wasn't much out here to do at that time, nothing
but sand beds and stickery, you know?
CE: Yeah.
CM: And it was a small, you know, village.
CE: Yeah.
CM: And the houses were well, I think it was G or 7 on each street.
CE: Did ya'll enjoy playing cards or singing or anything like that?
CM: Well, yes. We was brought up in church you know, Sunday school and singing. Sing in the choir at First
African Baptist Church, Franklin Square, that's where I'm a member. Reverend Tillman pastors.
CE: Um hum.
CM: And um, I sang in the choir until my hus ... , uh husband took ill and then I took my retarded child and
took care of him for 27 years until he passed about 2 years ago. So I give up the choir. Of course, I' m on
the deaconess board down there.
CE: And now you had a, you say you had a retarded child?
CM: My brother had a retarded child and I took care of him for 27 years.
CE: Ooh. Oh God, my goodness.
CM: He just died two years ago. And um, so I, I didn't go back to the choir but I'm still serving the church
doing what I'm, what I can.
CE: Wow. Are you one of the, one of the matriarchs of the church?
CM: Yeah, I'm the oldest member living now.
CE: Wow. "The oldest member."
CM: First African Baptist, franklin Square.
7
Manigault, Carinthia
CE: Okay. You know I wrote a book ...
CM: You did?
CE: ... um, called The HistoiJ' of First BIJ'WI Baptist Church and really, when you talk about the histmy of
First Btyan Baptist Chmch ...
CM: First African
CE: you know, you know the history of First..
CM: There was a dispute between those two.
CE: Right. Yeah. You telling me, you telling me about it.
CM: Uh huh.
CE: Tell me about it. Um, is there anything else you want to tell me, that I, that I, maybe I didn't get.
CM: Well, we didn't have, as I say, no service. Like, you didn't have, we had to pump water, you know.
CE: Um hum.
CM: Um hum.
CE: And cook on a wood stove?
CM: Cook on a wood stove and then you wash on a washboard and you heat iron on a charcoal pot. And then
you had to have fireplace and make fire to put the irons in front of the fire.
END
City of Savannah NOTES
1. Footage is unedited and presented in the form that it was recorded.
2. Filmed on the date indicated at the home of t he resident.
3. Designations-- "CM" indicates Carinthia Manigault. "LP" indicates Leroy Pa lmer. "RF" indicates
Reginald Franklin, the Project Videographer. "CE" indicates Charles Elmore, the Project Historian.
4. Interviewee indicates that her father was from Ogeecheeton, which is a designated neighborhood in
Savannah.
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