Transcript of an interview with Barbara Gore

LS: Today is September 26, 2003. This is Luciana Spracher the project historian for the Benjamin
Van Clark neighborhood documentation project for the city of Savannahs Department of
Cultural Affairs. I am speaking with Barbara Gore, resident of the neighborhood, at her private
residence in Savannah, Ga. Ok, what we are trying to do is put together a social history of the
whole neighborhood that focuses on three things. The first being transportation, which was
when the streetcars were laid out and it really started the whole neighborhood. The second is
desegregation and how the population has changed during the twentieth-century. And then
the third is the current revitalization efforts. So I want to start asking some questions about you
and you coming into the neighborhood and see what you know on those things. So to start out
with can I ask you to please state your full name including your middle and/or maiden name?
BG: Barbara Anne Walker Gore.
LS: And can you please state your birthdate and place of birth?
BG: Six, twenty-nine, forty. Johnson County.
LS: Georgia? Ok. And what is your current address, or if youd prefer, your block number and the
street?
BG: 1306 East Park Avenue.
LS: When did you move to this address?
BG: November of 66.
LS: Why did you choose to move to this house?
BG: Well, at the time I moved from our family home across the street. I was married at that time
anyway. But my mom was still alive and she lived on Bolton St. and I really didnt want to be
too far from my family at that time.
LS: Ok. What block did she live on Bolton St.?
BG: 700 block.
LS: 700 block. Ok, so what would be considered eastside today?
BG: Yes, eastside.
LS: Ok. Had you always lived over there on that block of Bolton St.?
BG: No, we moved there in 50 maybe late 49, 50.
Benjamin Van Clark Neighborhood Documentation Project
Neighborhood Oral History Project
Savannah Department of Cultural Affairs
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LS: Where was your family before that?
BG: East Boundary St. Which was called Fort.
LS: What do you remember about the Old Fort area?
BG: Oh a lot about Old Fort.
LS: Because its all gone now.
BG: Its all gone. Thats where Fred Wesley, Hitch Village, that Old Fort area. And my old church
was over there which was Emerson Lee, Second Arlen Baptist Church. Thats the old church
that the city brought down. And Tin City was behind our Hitch Village which our familys plant
lived on.
LS: Do you remember why they called it Old Fort?
BG: The Fort.
LS: Is that the fort over by Trustees Garden area?
BG: Our area out this way used to be called Bruton Hill. This area by Old Fort was called Bruton
Hill. Wheaton St. on up from Randolph.
LS: So around Bruton and Randolph was called Bruton Hill?
BG: Anything past coming, well, beyond, well Ill say where Hitch Dr. is now. Because all that was
the Old Fort and Tin City area. Right where the railroad tracks are, we called that hill Bruton
Hill. Out Presidents St. was called Bruton Hill. This was called out the road. But down
Presidents St. was called Bruton Hill.
LS: When you moved to this house, what were you calling this immediate neighborhood?
Because it wasnt Benjamin Van Clark.
BG: Live Oak.
LS: Live Oak, Ok. So if someone asked you where you lived you would say Live Oak?
BG: Well, Live Oak area.
LS: Ok.
BG: Park area. When they started zoningzoning or whatever, to get, like, neighborhoods.
LS: When they started really making
BG: Yeah, things.
LS: So when you moved to this house did you buy it right away or did you rent it?
BG: Well we bought it.
LS: So it was your first home.
BG: My first home.
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LS: First and only home.
BG: No, not my first house.
LS: But as a home owner?
BG: As a homeowner this was my first home.
LS: Who did you buy the house from?
BG: At that time it was
LS: Ok, so you didnt know who was living in it before you?
BG: No, I dont know how lived there before me. I dont recall the name but the people across the
street did tell me at one point but I dont remember.
LS: Ok. When you moved here was it mostly white? Was it a mixed neighborhood?
BG: When I moved here I was the only black on this block.
LS: And what was the reception that you got?
BG: Well, we pretty much, everybody stayed to themselves. You know if you come by and
whoever was close enough you would speak to them too. And at that time Garden Homes
was out here which was white. Garden Homes was, well it was all white at that time.
LS: What was it like when you first moved in? What do you remember about Garden Homes from
when you first came in the 60s?
BG: Well it was quiet. It was quiet down here. Things changed some.
LS: What do you think made the change?
BG: Well, each project, .. I dont know, well, because, I wouldnt say I didnt have any problems
when I moved here because one reason, Raleigh, the school, was right there. Kids from this
area went to Raleigh School. I happened to be home this Wednesday with the wash and
some little boys come by, and we just sealed off the porch, come by and set them on fire. And
our neighbor across the street at that time, the gray house over there, she came over and told
me that some little boys come by and started the fire. Well I got it out and she warned me but
she wouldnt say no more. And so I called the policeman and he said, you know, there was
nothing to be done but for the children going by. But I thought that was wrong because
anytime somebody gonna jeopardize your life in a house or your home with a fire I knew there
was something that could be done. You know, I didnt pursue it but, that was not the thing to
tell me about children going by and they were children, because something couldve been
done, and I couldve had something done. But I didnt bother.
LS: Since you brought up children, do you have children?
BG: I have two.
LS: Two children. Can I ask their names?
BG: Eric Gore and Iris Gore.
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LS: And I assume you raised them here.
BG: Yes. Moved in when Eric was about seven and she was six.
LS: And where did they go to elementary school?
BG: Hubert. Hubert elementary school
LS: And was that a fairly new school at the time?
BG: Fairly new.
LS: I know some children in the neighborhood went to Paulsen and Spencer, so you were too far
south so that you went to Hubert. Do you know where the cutoff would be?
BG: Well you see I was staying at Bolton St. at that time. And I didnt transfer them to Spencer
when we moved to Spencer because we were working and they were going to my moms
house after school till after work, you know, when we got off.
LS: But for most kids that lived around here, if they were African American, they went to Spencer?
BG: Yes.
LS: Ok. I just wanted to clarify that. Where did they go to middle school?
BG: In this area they went toI think Savannah High. My children from Hubert went from Hubert
to Savannah High. Spencer was elementary so I assume they went to Savannah High.
LS: Was there, do you remember any issues when your children were growing up between the
fact that the schools were still segregated so that the white children were going to Ramona
Riley and your children to Hubert, but some were going to Spencer, I mean, were there
problems, at the time, coming up as far as the quality of the schools not being equal?
BG: No, I didnt have any problems.
LS: OK
BG: Not from the kids.
LS: Did your children go play in any of the parks around here? Did they go over there and use
Live Oak or Grason Park?
BG: No, because we worked, you know, and my mother took care of them. And they definitely
didnt play at the park down there because there were no blacks around. So, you know.
LS: Oh I see, so Live Oak was all white surrounded.
BG: Yeah, white lived all in this area.
LS: They didnt play with any of the white children?
BG: No.
LS: Can I ask you what you and your husband did for a living?
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BG: He worked at the, it was called Bay St. Paint Co. at that time. And he worked, he was a truck
driver.
LS: Where was the paint company located?
BG: Down at the railroad tracks on Wheaton St. And he worked for Caulk Bros. Caulk
transportation. I worked at Surgery Associates.
LS: And was that on the Southside?
BG: Thats, um, Medical Arts down Waters.
LS: Let me go back to when you were a little girl and living in the Old Fort area. Do you, I dont
know if youd remember streetcars. Do you remember streetcars at all, the trolleys? Do you
remember riding them at all?
BG: Yes a little. Not because, they took them off. When we moved here I was about three. And
right about then streetcars and things started shutting off.
LS: And then did you take buses?
BG: We road the bus. Of course at that time we had tokens, which were like paper, there were no
little copper things they have. I remember tokens being something like a cardboard.
LS: Ok, some little tidly-winks or something. Youd get on the bus and where would you go?
Downtown to shop?
BG: Downtown.
LS: Ok.
BG: Or out to the movies coming out this way.
LS: Coming out Waters?
BG: Gwinnett, up East Broad. Up East Broad to Gwinnett. There were two movies up there which
was called the Melody and the Eastside Theatre. Or we went to the Westside to the Bar Bar
or the Starkey.
LS: Right, which is now M.L.K. Can you name any businesses that were on Waters Ave. or the
Wheaton St. in our area?
BG: There was a package shop right on the corner of Wheaton and Waters.
LS: That would be in Blackshear.
BG: And there was grocery store on the other side, on the north side. And there used to be a radio
station which was SOK.
LS: What was it called?
BG: SOK. That station was right on Wheaton St.
LS: Waters.
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BG: Waters, off Wheaton St. Waters, and, well, I dont recall that side street, but right on the
corner. Right across from St. Pauls Church. St. Pauls Church is still there.
LS: Around, would that be, like, Rockefeller? Or Joe?
BG: Rockefeller, yeah, uh huh. All of them.
LS: Around what time period do you think that got started?
BG: Oh, probably when I was starting..oh.. I was twelve or thirteen, so that would be like 52,
53.
LS: Would you and your family listen to that station?
BG: Oh yes, that was our station.
LS: And it was the first black station in Savannah?
BG: Uh huh. The people were good.
LS: Can you remember any of the people that were involved? Or maybe owned it?
BG: No. I dont know.
LS: Ok. What about some other African American influences?
BG: There was Sams. Mr. Sam had a store on the corner of Wright and Waters. William and
William Funeral Home was there. And then there used to be a bar the South corner which
was called the Grill. But it was white at that time.
LS: Do you remember Porters Lounge?
BG: Yeah, Porters Lounge closed down. Porters Lounge come to Waters and Thirty-Eighth. It
used to be on West Broad which is Martin Luther King, and Thirty-Fourth or Fifth. Now I was a
young girl at that time. But there was a place called 540, and that was on Gwinnett and East
Broad. Over there used to be the old Chinese store. Which was China store, we called it the
China store. And then there was Cregors Store, that was the grocery store there.
LS: On Waters?
BG: No, East Broad.
LS: East Broad. What about on Waters?
BG: Because when you asked about Porters thats why I brought that up. OK, Waters we had a
Paresons Bakery right on the corner of Park Avenue and Waters.
LS: Pareson?
BG: Yeah. And we had.. well, you know the old post office used to be right here on Henry,
Anderson and Waters, close to the school.
LS: When do you think that closed?
BG: Well..ummm.. I dont know, maybe 45.
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LS: It was here when you moved in?
BG: The post office was, yeah.
LS: And thats where everyone would go?
BG: Uh huh.
LS: Did you have mail delivered or did you have to go get your mail?
BG: No, it was always delivered.
LS: Let me move up a little bit in time to talk about what was happening with the population in the
neighborhood. When did you did you start seeing whites move out?
BG: Gradually. Well, I think I been around here, maybe like four or five years, and that gradually
started.
LS: Do you think they were moving out in response to more black people moving in, or do you
think that they were moving out anyway and they were replaced with black people as they left?
BG: Probably because black people were moving in. I would think so.
LS: Do you remember there being any strikes, I know you said you didnt really talk, but
BG: No. No, no, no, because everybody around me was white. I stayed here and everything was
white. You know.
LS: Was that hard at the beginning?
BG: No, because I lived with my house. I just come and go. They didnt bother me, I didnt bother
them. And I had my children the same way. If you go out this is your yard. This is your house.
And, you know, you dont. And I didnt have any problems.
LS: Are you aware of any protest activity that was occurring within the neighborhood during the
civil rights movement period as far as maybe youth or people organizing meetings or starting
here and going downtown for a march or something like that?
BG: Not around in the area.
LS: Do you know any residents in the neighborhood that maybe got involved in the civil rights
movement.
BG: There were a couple different names. I dont recall at that time because that was, the civil
rights movement, lets see, when that happened I wasnt really here.
LS: It was earlier.
BG: Right. That was like, what, sixty?
LS: Well, early 60s.
BG: 63, somewhere in there. I was living on Bolton St. at that time.
LS: Its sort of interesting that we had the desegregation of schools, and restaurants, and
businesses. But, it seemed like the neighborhood had a brief period when it was mixed and
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then it was sort of segregated again. It went from being white, to mixed, to all black. Do you
have any comments on that?
BG: No, because it didnt bother me.
LS: Ok, Im trying to get you to say something
BG: What you want me to say?
LS: No, no. Im trying to see something that maybe wasnt there.
BG: Well I didnt find it. Just like I say I was a person I went work and I went home. But I did black
out what was happening around me in the neighborhood. But we didnt have many problems
around here. None that I can get into. And I know we certainly didnt have any on this block.
The only incident I had around here was the fire. Thats the only incident I had with any of the
neighbors.
LS: Do you feel today that the neighborhood is completely segregated or do you feel like its
starting to be mixed again?
BG: Its starting to be mixed again.
LS: What do you think is making that happen?
BG: I dont know whats making that happen. I dont know if its really from the young people, or, I
dont know. They get out and then they decide to flood the area. Because at one point all
whites moved out. Everything was counting for whites and all blacks were in. Now it seems
like whites want to be in the city.
LS: Do you find now that more blacks are moving out to sell a home?
BG: Yes, theyre moving and whites are moving in.
LS: Thats interesting.
BG: They coming back in. Just like everything else. Like with black people, they were all on the
island. Nobody was in land but white folks. If you had to come in, you had to take a boat in on
Saturday. You know, Skidaway Island, Daufuskie Island, you had to go on a boat. To come to
do their grocery shopping or whatever they had to do. And now theyll kill you for the water.
And white folks going that way now.
LS: Interesting.
BG: Yes it is.
LS: I hadnt thought about the islands like that.
BG: Yeah.
LS: Let me ask you some questions about revitalization. It may have something to do with the fact
that the neighborhood is becoming mixed, and houses becoming available are getting fixed
up. How did you feel about Garden Homes in recent years before they closed it? You lived
pretty close to it. How do you feel about it?
BG: Well I didnt like some of the things that were going on around there. You know, but I just
stayed away from that area.
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LS: On purpose?
BG: Yeah, you just stay away from it. We didnt have much problems with it. We would travel the
street a lot, you know, because the bus, going to the bus, or going to the store. Well we had
the store down on the corner. We would always have it walking. Some things we had were
taken, like the flowers in the yard or something, or the chairs from the porch.
LS: But you didnt feel unsafe because of it?
BG: Well, not really. I just stayed in my house.
LS: Which isnt a good thing always, especially if you have a nice porch like you do.
BG: Well, I stayed in my house.
LS: How did you feel when they torn it down?
BG: Well I was glad that it was torn down for the purpose that it was going to be rebuilt.
LS: Well, thats my next question. How do you feel about the new project?
BG: Well I hope it will be significant. I really do.
LS: Do you think it will have a good effect on the neighborhood around it?
BG: Yes. I really hope it does. And it will help clean up some of the other areas that are around
here, you know, the people that are not in the houses, that are building the houses and not
taking care of them. I hope it does. I would like to live to see that.
LS: Well, it seems like they are working down there.
BG: Theyre working down there now laying pipes. Getting water lines and I supposed whatever.
LS: Any of the work going on down there disturbing the immediate neighborhood around it?
BG: Well you dont hear it now, but it was rumbling from before.
LS: When tearing down the old building?
BG: Not as much as that digging. Tearing down the building you didnt hear. Its only that, umm
LS: Jackhammer.
BG: Um hmm. You could feel it. Ive got places, these are cement walls.
LS: Cracks in the walls.
BG: Not from that, but from when they did that Casey Canal, 93, 94, 96. We got plenty of
problems around here with that. Ive had these walls redone. See all that was cracked. And
this too, and all of that.
LS: Let me ask you, a lot of people have mentioned problems with that project. What was that
project supposed to do? Was it to build a new canal or clean out a canal?
BG: Yeah that goes over Derenne. Case canal was supposed to be for the flooding.
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LS: Did you have a flooding problem?
BG: Well, I never had a problem with the flooding with this block, but theyve had problems with
flooding all around. But if it rains, it still floods. So, it still floods. So really all we got was
messed up houses.
LS: Do you know of any houses that had to be torn down?
BG: The house on Walberg and Cedar. Thats a new house right there on the southwest corner,
thats a new house. Also the house on Henry and Cedar, the brick house, rebuilt. The Howe
house, the house on Anderson and Cedar, the two-story, rebuilt.
LS: Was it a county or a city project?
BG: City.
LS: So did they pay to have it rebuilt?
BG: No, and they didnt want to pay for it. The city didnt anyway. They said it was T.I.C. who was
the contractor. So, we had a time.
LS: Did you get involved the neighborhood association at that time?
BG: Oh yes. Im telling you Ive got cracks still out on the porch out there. You know. And at the
time they said they would take care of it, but they didnt. They didnt do a lot of taking care of
anything. Right now my cabinets in the kitchen, like the foundation in the house, shift. Doors
dont close. I have pictures. And even the walls and around the ceiling, like from the ceiling to
the walls. Youve got your molding, and its got cracks.
LS: Cracks in the molding, yeah.
BG: You know.
LS: Do you think nowadays that when problems come up the city listens more to neighborhood?
Do you feel like the neighborhood has a stronger voice than it used to?
BG: Somewhat, somewhat. But they dont want to take full responsibility for things because, well,
we really had a trying time with them. A really trying time. Before Brown got in. Whats his
name?
LS: Michael Brown. Are you planning on taking advantage of any of the city programs that they
are offering in conjunction with the Hope 6 project like loan programs to help fix up you fix up
your house, or anything like that?
BG: Well, if youre a single person you tend to get these things. Im married, so Im out of a lot of
things that they offer. Theres a lot of things that Im not eligible for.
LS: And is that because its based on income, and you are two?
BG: Yeah.
LS: Do you remember when they renamed Live Oak Park to Benjamin Van Clark Park?
BG: Well, it was done so silently, lets see
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LS: Silently?
BG: Well, in a sense. It was after Mabel died. I dont have it here.
LS: Do you remember what the attitude was of all of it among the residents?
BG: It wasnt even thought about. Because it they worked, he worked. And it was good for the park
to be changed to his name.
LS: So everybody was happy to do it?
BG: Yeah, it was an excellent idea. Because he had worked for civil rights.
LS: Did you know him personally?
BG: I did not know him.
LS: What kind of changes have you noticed in the neighborhood since you moved here? And this
could be anything, you could talk about population, architecture, landscape, people?
BG: Well, the people, the thing is in the neighborhood, if you have homeowners, you tend to get a
little more participation in the neighborhood. Rather than you would if you were just renting,
because I guess they think why should I bother Im just renting the place. Which I think we
should have it, which is true, you go to the owner and that owner should be more involved in
what is going on in the neighborhood, because that house belong to them. And thats the only
thing that I have. If you dont have a homeowner, or if the owner doesnt live in the house
themself, thats the only real problem.
LS: So would you say that there were a lot more homeowners that were living in their homes when
you moved here, and theres more renters today?
BG: Yes.
LS: Well I wanted to ask you, what do you think makes this neighborhood special, except for the
park? Say, the eastside neighborhood? Or going out past Anderson St. in that
neighborhood?
BG: Well, I have to think especially because this is where I live. And we want to see stay together.
This is where I live. This is where I raised my children. And thats special to me. And I would
like to see everything just stay up and keeping, instead of going down. And I would like to see,
just like I say, the Hope 6 to be completed over there and see whats happening in that area.
Because its going to be good.
LS: Well it seems to be, well the reason were doing this project is because were think that project
will spur revitalization in that neighborhood, and probably things will change. So were trying to
capture things before things change too much. So, well, those are all my questions, do you
have anything you would like to add?
BG: No.
LS: Thank you very much.
BG: Ok. We did have a Fox, just a little five and dime store down there. It was on the corner of
Anderson and Waters.
LS: Anderson and Waters, and it would be called Fox Five and Dime.
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BG: It was Fox. And we had Mr. Cutter that did the shoes. Shoe shop.
LS: Ok. Was the Five and Dime owned by white or black?
BG: White.
LS: And Mr. Cutter?
BG: Cutters were black.
LS: Is that shop still down there?
BG: Mr. Cutter retired.
LS: Ok, do you remember any other businesses?
BG: No.
LS: Where would you go to go grocery shopping?
BG: When we would go grocery shopping.
LS: So you wouldnt go?
BG: I was all to Food town at that time.
LS: Where was that located?
BG: Food town was located on West Broad, Oglethorpe, and Price.
LS: So you didnt go to any of the groceries on Waters Ave?
BG: They didnt really have groceries until later. And then Food town moved right down there on
Thirty-seventh.
LS: Oh, ok. I heard a lot about Jewish grocers on Waters. So mostly the white residents went
there then?
BG: Food town was Jewish, and M and M, were all owned by the Jewish.
LS: Oh, ok. Anything else you would like to get on tape?
BG: Did anybody tell you that there, right there where the law center is now, that used to be a park?
LS: That was Grayson Park, right?
BG: No, Grayson Parks always been there. Grayson Park is on Victory and Waters.
LS: You mean Daffin Park?
BG: Daffin Park. Thats right, that was Grayson.
LS: What was there before they put the community center there? Was there playgrounds?
BG: No just a park with some benches in it, you could sit.
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LS: People would just go and sit for a while?
BG: Yeah, no swings or nothing. It was just a park you could walk through from one street to the
next street. We would go there on Sunday when we were younger and go walk through the
park.
LS: Like with your girlfriends?
BG: Um hmm.
LS: Where did you meat your husband?
BG: Over where I lived.
LS: So over on the Bolton St. area. Where did he grow up?
BG: Hes from Richmond. And he was living around on Gwinnett St. with his aunt. And 55 we got
married.
LS: Where did you get married?
BG: At the court house. A blind judge and the dog.
LS: And the dog?
BG: The dog was with us always. The dog was the baby.
LS: Was it your dog that you brought with you?
BG: No, it was the judges dog. The blind judge.
LS: Oh, it was the Seeing Eye dog. Ok, well, thank you.
-End of interviewTranscript prepared by:
Kate Ryan
Project Intern