Interview with Bernice Grimes, 2003 September 25

LS Today is August 25th, 2003. I'm sorry, today is September 25th, isn't it, 2003. This is Luciana
Spracher, project historian for the Benjamin Van Clark Neighborhood Documentation Project
of the City of Savannah's Department of Cultural Affairs. I am speaking with Bernice Grimes,
resident of the neighborhood, at Benjamin Van Clark Park in Savannah, Georgia.
Now, Mrs. Grimes we're putting together a social history of the neighborhood and were
focusing on transportation, desegregation and the current revitalization efforts going of the
Hope VI Project. So, I want to ask you a couple of background questions about you and then
ask you some questions that relate to those themes, okay?
BG Okay.
LS Could you please state your full name, including your middle and or a maiden name?
BG My name is Bernice Williams Grimes and I live at 1311 East Park Ave. I've been a resident of
that area since the latter part of 1969. Which I was reared on the west side, born in the Millen,
Georgia, retired from Georgia-Pacific as a power engineer after an injury. And since then I
was just working with the neighborhood association, different church organizations and also I
am the caterer, I cater food.
LS Who do you do that for?
BG I do it for quite a few people in this neighborhood, and also for different churches and
weddings , and that type of stuff. And I've already, also worked for Dr. Harry Portman and uh,
Mose Portman's , which all of those people are dead now. Dr. Portman was a pediatrician. I
start working for his family in the early age, for his mother. And I did a lot of Jewish cooking.
LS Okay, where did they live?
BG Well, they lived on the west side. His mother lived on West 36th, about the second house from
a corner. And uh, she was real old, and they had a little fishing pond out there and they had all
kinds of fruit that they raised themselves. This was Dr. Portman's mother.
LS Okay, so you moved here in 1969?
BG I moved in this area in 1969.
LS Why did you choose to move over here?
BG Well, over in this area there was a, the houses was a little bit cheaper, what I could afford. I
looked all-around and this I could afford. Now it that particular time, I paid $8,000 for my
house. I guess the value of it today is around 60,000. So you can see how much things have
changed.
Benjamin Van Clark Neighborhood Documentation Project
Neighborhood Oral History Project
Savannah Department of Cultural Affairs
LS Who did you buy your house from?
BG As a matter of fact, I bought my house from Mr. Lanier. And he was a gentleman that owned
Eastern Furniture on Ogeechee Road, which is still there now, but I don't know whether he
owns it. And his father lived across the street. And they was white folks. And, they was a kind
of a close-knit family. And his father, after I purchased his house, his father stayed there for
several years. And he tried to get me to buy his father's house, but I was making so little back
then and I just couldn't afford it.
LS Were most of the families in that neighborhood when you moved in white?
BG We had about, at least about, about seven or eight white families was still in there. And they
was very nice people. As a matter of fact, it was a retired colonel that lived next door to me,
and his name was Hume. But I found out later that he died, you know. And, also we had a
doctor, Dr. Lange.
LS Did he practice in the neighborhood?
BG Oh, I don't know about in the neighborhood. But he had an office in town here. There were
several others but I don't know what they did. These are the ones that I was close contact
with.
LS But you felt welcomed by them when you moved in?
BG Oh, definitely so. And also there was a gentleman there, he was the last one to move out.
LS When did he leave do you think?
BG Oh, I would say in the late seventies, when he moved out. He was the last one that, and he
said that, I think the reason why he moved was because his health had failed. And he said
that he wouldn't have moved because he was satisfied with his neighbors. The neighbors
would help him. And the man across the street, a black fellow, had a regular job of keeping his
yard up. Cause, he liked a nice, neat yard.
LS Okay, um, as the white families moved out why do you think they did start to move out?
BG Well, there wasn't that many more left in there. And I guess they all sort of, they wanted to
just, you know, be on the Southside, something different.
LS Okay, did you raise children in the neighborhood?
BG Yeah, I raised two children.
LS Two children. Can I ask their names?
BG My son is named Willie Grimes, Jr. and my daughter is Beverly Williams [?].
LS Where do they go to school when they were growing up?
BG Well, my daughter went to Savannah High.
LS What about elementary school?
BG Elementary school, she went to Florance, because see, I lived on the west side.
LS Okay, so they were, when you moved over here, were they already grown and out of school?
BG No, I had a son that he went to school, my son went to private school, Sacred Heart. That's
where he went to school until he was in his teenage years. Then he went to Savannah High.
LS Is there a particular reason why you chose to send him to private school as opposed to public?
BG No, I was a Catholic. I went from the Methodist Church to the Catholic.
LS Okay, so it was a religious decision, as opposed to a quality of education?
BG Right.
LS Okay, so you weren't here when there were streetcars, so I'll skip some of the questions.
BG I, I used to visit over here, when there were streetcars, when I was a little girl. But I remember
when the streetcar used to come all the way down Wheaton Street and it would end up-turn
that off-Their either was a, you know, we used to come over here to the Tin City. And over
there to the wood yard, in that area.
LS Savannah Lumber yard?
BG It was right up there on President. Yeah, I remember that.
LS So who would you visit in Tin City?
BG Um, we had some little school friends that we used to come over there and I had some more
friends that lived over there on, right nearby, let me see, what's the street name? There was a,
they lived on, [inaudible] Southville Brown church.
LS Hartridge Street?
BG Yeah.
LS Okay, what can you tell me about Tin City? What do you remember about it?
BG Well, there was just a lot of people that lived over there. They didn't have as much as other
people have. And I don't know how that place got started or whether the government just gave
them the land and said you can, and, they built stuff over there with what they had. And that's
what they called it, Tin City.
LS Okay, so you would on the streetcars on the west side, and travel over here to Tin City in the
Wheaton Street area, right?
BG Well, somebody would bring me over here, on the streetcars. Because, I wasn't old enough to
just get on there and ride it by myself. I always come with somebody older than I was.
LS What do you remember about the streetcars?
BG Well, that was the only thing, it was just a, I don't know how the thing was powered by.
LS Electricity?
BG I don't think it was electricity. Some kind of gas or whatever. But it was a nice ride. It had
windows that opened up. And you could get on there, and you know, when they start the bell
used to be ringing. And they had the seats, you know, almost like the bus seats today.
LS Do you remember what color they were painted?
BG No, not right off.
LS Do you remember around how much the fare was?
BG It couldn't have been no more than 10 or 15 cents, or a nickel. I really don't know.
LS Okay, let's see. So you were sort of here toward the latter half of the Civil Rights period. Do
you remember any activity in this area that related to what was going on in Savannah with the
Civil Rights movement?
BG No, I don't anything about on this area. Because I wasn't on the west side during that time, I
mean on the Eastside at that particular time.
LS Okay, um, well, let me ask you? Being Catholic, um, are you familiar with the St. Pius High
School?
BG No, I'm not familiar with that. I mean, I know, how they got it, you know, they built it. And
several of the black churches, Catholic Church, St. Anthony, and St. Mary's and St. Benedict.
And if I'm not mistaken, I think they were the ones, you know, purchased, uh, you know, I don't
know if the land was given. But I know, they sold fish dinners and stuff, you know, to buy
bricks for that place.
LS Okay.
BG But I have several of my friends that
LS Went there?
BG Yeah.
LS Do you know of any neighborhood residents that either lived here then, or now, that were
involved in the Civil Rights movement that you can name?
BG Well, the only one that I know personally would be Ben.
LS Do you want to say anything about him?
BG Well, he was just an advocator, a Civil Rights advocator. He, he spent a lot of time trying to
get, you know, he was in a lot of the sit-ins. He marched with Martin Luther King down in
Alabama and places like that. And, he was beat up many a time. And, as a matter of fact, I
know him, the kind of person, I also knew his mother. Cause his mother used to run a laundry
mat for somebody. You know, she used to see after it. And then after, I don't know later years
when he got hurt, you know, he couldn't remember things like that. He was, he was real
smart. He was a smart fellow in school. Very smart, because he went to Cuyler. And he was
always the type of person that could um, could remember speeches and stuff like the um, we
used to recite the um, he could remember speeches, poems and stuff, long poems. He was
real smart. Very smart person.
LS Okay, um, how do you think that the Civil Rights movement affected this neighborhood? Do
you think it had an effect on the population or schools?
BG Yeah, I think it did. Because, it, I don't know, it turned a lot of, to me, part of the black children
was going in the right manner. And then when this came about, it was like a change.
LS And then they started going down the wrong path?
BG Well, yes. Sort of like that.
LS Do you want to elaborate on any of that?
BG Um, well, some of the things that, um, that I see, that they, like in the education department, at
first the children, before it started, we used to have the second books. And we used to get all
of you alls books that what you all had left over. And then when uh, segregation came in, then
they would give, begin to give us, you know, all, everybody had the same books. Even which I
could remember when I was in school, we used to have, a, the sport, the basketball team
things. And um, we used to have to use the old things that you all used to have.
LS From the white schools?
BG Yeah. So, but they changed that. And we used to get new things and you all used to get new
things. And also, I just can't think, close up.
-break in interview at request of intervieweeLS How did you feel about Garden Homes when it was still in operation?
BG Well, Garden Homes was a good place for black and also white. And when I moved in this
area, it was all white.
LS Do you remember, around when it switched?
BG No. It just start, they just, you know, started moving out. I don't have a specific date. But um,
they tried to do, to keep the place up, but sometimes they would come in, different types of
people moved in there. And um, they used to just keep stuff going on over there. All the time.
LS What kind of stuff?
BG Oh, like drugs. And you would see the white people bringing the drugs over there. And they
would drop it off, and they would take off. And then it would be left up to the black people.
LS How do you think the activity down there affected the neighborhood surrounding it?
BG Oh it did, it did, because you had a lot of break-ins. And um, a lot of the people would, they
would walk all night long. Stuff of that nature.
LS You mean like walk up and down the
BG Walk up and down the blocks and stuff like that. Just, seems like they just didn't care too
much about anything. I don't know was it because they had a problem over there or what. But
to me, they didn't care too much about anything.
LS So there wasn't a good relationship between the Benjamin Van Clark residents in the Garden
Home residents?
BG No. I don't think, no there wasn't. Not to me.
LS Have you noticed an improvement since it closed, in the neighborhood?
BG Yes. To me it's been an improvement, because you don't have that much activity around here.
Now you can't run activity away, because it's going to be. But I don't think that there has been
that much since the Garden Homes has moved out.
LS Less crime then?
BG Right.
LS Okay, um. How do you feel about the new Hope VI project and the proposed mixed income
housing that they are going to put there?
BG Well, it probably would be a good thing, if we can just keep it that way. The way they said they
going to do it, and screening different people who come in there, it will be.
LS Okay, so you think it will have a good effect on the surrounding neighborhood?
BG I think so.
LS Are you planning on, or have you already taken advantage of any of the city programs that are
being offered in conjunction with it?
BG Yes.
LS Which programs have you used?
BG Well, I have, the only one I have used, where that I had borrowed since I retired, I borrowed
money from the city to do some work on my property.
LS What kind of work did you do?
BG Well, I had a roof put on there. And also, I had, they painted it, the outside.
LS In the past year?
BG Well, the painting was done in the past year. But, the other stuff was maybe two or three years
ago.
LS So the programs will definitely help the value of your house?
BG Yeah.
LS Okay, how long have you been involved with the neighborhood association?
BG Well, I've been involved with the neighborhood association since about in the early eighties, in
the early eighties. And we had a project, a drainage project that they put down on a city street,
Wheaton Street all the way down to Cedar. And they dug up, they dug up the streets, and it
was about 40 feet down they had to go in and dig. And we had a pretty good neighborhood
association at that particular time. Annette, um, Annette, I can't think of, she was the president
then.
LS In response to the drainage project, the issues that it raised?
BG Yeah. Then after, the people, they dug up that street out there. And they didn't come by and
let nobody know that, this was the thing. The only thing you know, they would be, you'd see
them coming down, you know, digging up, they didn't tell anybody. And since then, they're
going to do Paulson Street, one of them streets. And they're going to go into each person's
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house and take a look at it before they start doing any work. They didn't do this in this area. I
guess because this was predominantly black. And a lot of people, they houses was torn up.
And we had two, I think it was two houses around here, just build them all over.
LS Tear them down and start over?
BG Right. And since then, the neighborhood association, well, some people got some money,
some people didn't. And it was just a whole controversy. It's been down for several years.
But, I didn't never give up hope, about the neighborhood association. I would try things myself,
go to the, talk to the city about you know, houses that needed boarded-up. Stuff like that. And
then I would be start going down to the East Side Concerned Citizens meeting. And I was the
only one from this area, you know would go in at any time I find out the city would be having
something that would be connected to the neighborhood, I would stand up for Benjamin Van
Clark.
LS You were the only spokesperson?
BG Right.
LS How do you think the activities of the neighborhood association benefit the area today?
BG Oh, definitely. You've got a lot of elderly people that live in this area that need help with they
houses and stuff.
LS Elderly?
BG Yes. And um, it really has helped quite a few. The lighting situation. The trees and stuff in the
neighborhood. Some of them got their houses painted. And roof on their houses.
LS Okay. Can you think of any general changes that have occurred in the neighborhood since
you moved here, maybe population, landscape, changes in businesses?
BG Oh, yeah. It used to be quite a few black-owned stores on Waters Avenue. But we got a lot
of, like the Chinese store down there, they, a black man used to own that store. And a
restaurant, and further on down, and a lot of Cajun, Asian people came in this area in
business.
LS Oh, you've noticed an influx of Asian business people?
BG Yes.
LS That have convenience stores, that sort of thing?
BG Right, right.
LS Name some names of businesses or restaurants that used to be here, but that are gone. Like,
you mentioned a restaurant down there.
BG We had a restaurant right there on the corner. They, I don't know, I can't remember their
name. As a matter of fact [inaudible]. Also, um, a laundry mat, and a, I don't know too much
about um, I know there was a, years ago, a shoe store was right down there on the corner, you
know fix shoes.
LS Mr. Cooper's.
BG Yes.
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LS Do you remember what the laundry mat was called, was it Snow's?
BG Snow's Laundry.
LS Snow's laundry. Is there anything you would like to add?
BG The only thing that I would like to add, that um, this neighborhood is getting better. But it can
be much better, with the help from the city and the people in the neighborhood.
LS What makes this neighborhood special, compared to say, Eastside or, you know, other
neighborhoods on the West Side. What defines Benjamin Van Clark neighborhood?
BG Um, I don't know what you mean.
LS I don't know, something that sets it apart. Something that, you know, it can't be mistaken for
somewhere else.
BG Okay, we've got a lot of old houses in this neighborhood. And as a matter of fact, it used to be,
it has a point of a few historical stuff in this neighborhood that I, that I'm saying, a lot of them I
know about. You know, some of them I know about and some of them I don't know about.
LS Tell me about the ones you know about.
BG Well, they tell me it used to be a funeral home. Um, about two blocks, where did that funeral
home used to be at Mr. Allen? Duffy Street. Duffy Street. And also, we have um, a doctor
used to live on Duffy Street, a black doctor. And um, we had quite a few people that taught
school, that lived over there on Duffy Street. And um, as a matter of fact, one lady taught for
about 30 years that lived across the street from me.
LS Do you remember her name?
BG Her name was Mitchell. I don't know her first name.
LS Do you know what school she taught at?
BG No, I really don't. Yeah, I do. One of the schools was Florance Street School. But you know,
they switched back and forth. And um, let's see what else, that's all I can think of right now.
LS Okay, that's fine. Well, if you think of something else, you know where to find me. So I want to
thank you for talking with me today. You've been very helpful.
BG I don't know if it's been helpful. I hope it's been helpful.
LS It has.