LS: Today is August the 25th 2003. This is Luciana Spracher, project historian for the Benjamin Van Clark neighborhood documentation Project of the City of Savannah's Department of cultural affairs. I am speaking with Mr. Adolphus Allen, resident of the neighborhood and the Benjamin Van Clark Park in Savannah Georgia. Now Mr. Allen, our Project is a social history of the neighborhood and we're focusing on three things. The first thing being transportation, you know how the streetcars affected the development of the neighborhood. The second is how desegregation affected the neighborhood during the middle of the 20th century. And the third, is how the current revitalization efforts of HopeVI in Garden Homes is going to affect the neighborhood. So first, I'd like to start with some background questions and then move into those themes. Could you please state your full name, including your middle name?

AA: Adolphus H. Allen.

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LS: Okay, could you please state your birth date and place of birth?

AA: 9-8-31. Alexander City, Alabama.

LS: Okay, um, what is your current address or if you're not comfortable, the block and street the live on?

AA: 1206 E. Collins St.

LS: Okay, when did you move to this neighborhood?

AA: In 1962.

LS: Why did you choose this neighborhood to move to?

AA: Uh, I thought it was a nice neighborhood and I was looking for a four-room home to buy.

LS: Where we living prior to moving here?

AA: On the 1200 block of E. Gwinnett St.

LS: Okay, still within the neighborhood then?

AA: Yes.

LS: How long had you been in that house?

AA: For three years.

LS: Were you owning or renting?

AA: No, renting.

LS: Renting. Who did you rent from?

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AA: A lady by the name of Mrs. Williams. She's deceased now.

LS: Was that a white woman?

AA: No, black.

LS: Okay, prior to that, were you in the area?

AA: Yes, I lived with my brother around the corner on Colbert (?) Street.

LS: Colbert?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. What would be the cross street there?

AA: Waters.

LS: Waters. Okay. So that's closer to Williams (?) Street?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. So you've been in the neighborhood, a lot longer than in the sixties then?

AA: Yes, since the fifties. I came to Savannah in 1951.

LS: Okay. What brought you to Savannah?

AA: I was living with my brother and going to school at Savannah State.

LS: Okay. I came to go to college?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. What degree did you get there?

AA: I did not finish.

LS: What were you studying?

AA: Industrial Education.

LS: Okay. When you moved to this house, did you rent it originally or own it right out?

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AA: I bought it right out.

LS: Who did you buy it from?

AA: A realtor by the name of Hams.

LS: Okay. You know anything about the owners that he was representing, or was he the owner?

AA: He was the owner.

LS: He was the owner. Had he lived in the house?

AA: No.

LS: Okay. At any point, did you ever leave this area, and then come back?

AA: No.

LS: Okay. So you stayed here the whole time?

AA: Yes.

LS: Um, could I ask what you did for a living before you retired?

AA: Yes. I retired from Wal-Mart, Sam's Club.

LS: Okay. Um, did you raise children here?

AA: Yes.

LS: How many children?

AA: I have three.

LS: Three. What's their names?

AA: Yes, um, Anita, Angela and Adolphus.

LS: Adolphus, Jr.?

AA: The third.

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LS: You are the Jr.?

AA: Yes.

LS: Um, so they were raised in the neighborhood (inaudible)?

AA: Yes.

LS: Where did they go to school?

AA: Um, Savannah High, Albany State, Savannah State and Savannah Tech.

LS: Okay. How about elementary school?

AA: Elementary school, they went to Hubert.

LS: Hubert Elementary. Okay. Did any of them go to Paulson or Spencer Elementary?

AA: My youngest son went.

LS: To Spencer?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. Living across from the park must have been nice. Did your children use the park a lot?

AA: Yes, they really did.

LS: A lot of the neighborhood kids came out?

AA: Yes.

LS: And they would play games?

AA: Yes, they would play games. Basketball, football, and things like that.

LS: Okay. So when you moved here, the streetcars were gone, right?

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AA: Right.

LS: At that point? But you had the car barns on Gwinnett St., where the bus is using it. Did you know of anybody that worked over there in the car barns?

AA: I knew some of the bus drivers. One of the bus drivers was my next -door neighbor.

LS: Right here at 1204?

AA: Yes.

LS: Do you remember what his name was?

AA: Ike Kenti (?).

LS: Kenti ? Okay. And he was a bus driver for a while?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. Did you ever ride the bus?

AA: Yes I did.

LS: Okay. Where would you pick it up? Where would you get on?

AA: When I was getting on then, it would be on Waters and Gwinnett. (Inaudible).

LS: Okay. You'd take it downtown?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. Um, you were here during the Civil Rights period in Savannah?

AA: Yes.

LS: When you moved into the neighborhood, was the area predominantly white?

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AA: Yes. I'd say, in fact, I think I'm the first black in this area, on this street.

LS: When you moved here, did you feel welcome? What was the reception that you got?

AA: Well overall, I'd say yes. Even though (inaudible) some neighbors. They said, everybody was going to move. And they was white. Some said they weren't going to move, and they stayed here. And they stayed here for a while before they moved.

LS: Did you notice, um, more white families moving out as black families moved in?

AA: Yes.

LS: Um, you think that was directly related to the black families or that they would have moved anyway?

AA: Well, I feel that they would have moved anyway. I'm not going there.

LS: Okay. At what time did you notice a great shift from a white neighborhood to an African American neighborhood? Can you pinpoint i t to a time period?

AA: It was probably within a year.

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LS: So, 1967?

AA: In that area.

LS: Okay. During the Civil Rights period, are you aware of any protest activity or organization that was occurring within this area?

AA: No, it was just, I mean the Park, see the Park was, I'd say 35% white when we moved in. I didn't know it was 100% white.

LS: The neighborhood?

AA: Yes.

LS: What did you call the neighborhood?

AA: I'd say the Park, Benjamin Van Clark.

LS: What did you call the neighborhood before?

AA: Live Oak.

LS: You called it Live Oak neighborhood?

AA: Yes, yes.

LS: Okay. So are you aware of any meetings that were held at St. Pius High School?

AA: (no response heard, presumed "No").

LS: Okay. Um, do you know of any residents from the neighborhood that got involved in the Civil Rights movement?

AA: Oh, yes. Benjamin Van Clark.

LS: Did he live in this neighborhood?

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AA: No, he didn't, um, he lived over by (inaudible). We, um, we participated (inaudible) we started out (inaudible), and it just escalated from there.

LS: So, you were directly involved (inaudible)?

AA: Yes.

LS: What, um, how old were you at that time?

AA: Late twenties.

LS: Twenties. So what was your role, how did you participate?

AA: We went downtown, marches in the city, and did a crusade for voters trying to get them out to vote, and things like that.

LS: Educate people about their rights to vote?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. Did you participate in any of the sit-ins, or?

AA: A couple of times down on Broughton Street.

LS: Do you remember what establishments you went into?

AA: Yes. At that time, it was Livingston Drugstore, and Kress Department Store.

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LS: Okay. So, you're one of the leaders who lived in the neighborhood?

AA: Yes.

LS: So, name some of the other people that lived in this neighborhood that were involved, that you can think of.

AA: I cannot.

LS: Well, if you think of anything let me know. During, and after the Civil Rights movement really got started, how do you think it affected the neighborhood? Do you think it caused a change in this immediate neighborhood?

AA: Well sure it did.

LS: In what ways?

AA: Well, now, I see that the homeowners take more responsibility in their homes, and in the neighborhood. It really brought a change, from the beginning up until now.

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LS: Would you say there is more pride today?

AA: More pride. Yes.

LS: What do you think, is it home ownership, or um,?

AA: I'm sure it is. Home ownership.

LS: Um, do you want to talk any about the integration in schools that happened during that time? Cause I know a lot of the white children would go to Ramona Riley, and a lot of the black children would go to Paulson, and then Spencer. Was there any feelings in the neighborhood about, you know, the split in the schools on the differences?

AA: I'm sure we had some, there was some concern. Because, a lot of parents felt that their kids would do better in an all -black school, in which I disagree. I believe that all kids, if they're going to get along in the world that they should start out at a young age. That's my opinion.

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LS: So your involvement in Civil Rights was really, for, that was what motivated you?

AA: Yes. It really did, right.

LS: Um, now, what about today? Do you feel the neighborhood is mixed it all or is it segregated?

AA: Right now, I would say that the Van Clark neighborhood is predominantly black. Every once in a while, you will see a couple of white folks out there playing basketball, but very seldom.

LS: Okay. Let me ask you about Garden Homes. How did you feel about it when it was in operation?

AA: Well, I felt like Garden Homes was just a crime-ridden neighborhood.

LS: Was it like that when you first moved here?

AA: I, no, I don't think so. It escalated over the years.

LS: Do you have (any idea) what made it happen?

AA: Yes. The families just didn't care. It starts at the home.

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LS: So a breakdown in family values?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. Um, how do you feel about the Hope VI project and the mixed-use and mixed-income housing they're hoping to introduce?

AA: Well, I (inaudible) in Atlanta. I like the concept. And I really believe it can make a big difference. The attendance, you know, more pride in the home they're living in. And if they would take more pride in their neighborhood, the residents who live there, quite naturally it would make a better place for everyone.

LS: Right, you feel that improvement in there will continue to spread out?

AA: Spread out, yes.

LS: Okay. Um, are you planning on taking advantage of any of the city programs 13:00that are being offered in conjunction with the Hope VI? I know there are some, like loan programs, that the city is offering to help you improve your home. Are you planning on taking advantage?

AA: I have used it already.

LS: Okay. What did you do with it?

AA: I remodeled the inside of my home.

LS: Did you go through the City of Savannah?

AA: The city, yes.

LS: Do you remember what that program was called?

AA: (inaudible).

LS: Okay. What, a couple of years?

AA: Oh no, it was at least 20 years ago.

LS: But not any of the programs they are offering now?

AA: Ye s. The paint, it just happened in the last year, (inaudible).

LS: Okay, you repainted your house?

AA: Yes.

LS: While you tell me about your remodeling experiences that you had that you were telling me about?

AA: Yes, um, I applied for the remodeling of my home. It didn't take long before 14:00they came through with it. No problem whatsoever.

LS: This was 20 years ago?

AA: Oh no.

LS: This was a recent one?

AA: Recent one. Yes.

LS: So, 20 years ago you remodeled the inside?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. In this past program, you worked on the outside?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. When they renamed the Park, do you remember when that happened? From Live Oak to Benjamin Van Clark?

AA: (inaudible).

LS: So, early nineties?

AA: Yes.

LS: Okay. What was the attitude of the residents toward renaming the Park? Were they pushing it, was there any resistance?

AA: The renaming came through the City of Savannah, when they wanted to honor Ben. That's when they changed the 15:00name from Live Oak to Benjamin Van Clark.

LS: What was the reaction in the community toward the renaming of this?

AA: Well at that time, it wasn't too much. But now, we have a little opposition between the Live Oak Neighborhood Association and the Benjamin Van Clark Neighborhood Association.

LS: Do you want to explain that a little bit? We don't have to get into it if you don't want to.

AA: What it is, the Live Oak Association have their own thing. And we are the (inaudible). We have our agenda.

LS: You're talking about Benjamin Van Clark?

AA: Yes, Benjamin Van Clark, and Live Oak. You see, the Live Oak Association just have to realize that this is Benjamin Van Clark Park. And that's the way it is.

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LS: Okay. What changes have you noticed in the neighborhood since you've been here? We've already talked some about population, like maybe architecture or landscape businesses? Any comments? What kind of changes have you seen going on?

AA: Well, we have more businesses coming into the area. Especially on Waters Ave., and Wheaton Street. Yes, yes. And we are going to get more. But were hoping that the Benjamin Van Clark Neighborhood Association is hoping that (inaudible).

LS: Okay. What about when you moved here? What was going on, on Waters and 17:00Wheaton in the fifties and sixties? Was it a very active area?

AA: Yes. It was active that you had a lot of (inaudible) it wasn't nothing to call (inaudible). Now we had a business on Waters and Park Avenue. It was called Alan's Confectionery. And we stayed there for 17 years.

LS: (inaudible).

AA: (inaudible).

LS: (inaudible) Alan's Confectionery?

AA: Yes.

LS: And what kind of items did you sell?

AA: Just everyday items.

LS: Kind of like a little general store?

AA: Yes.

LS: And you had it for 17 years?

AA: Yes.

LS: And who ran it, you?

AA: Me and my brother.

LS: What was your brother's name?

AA: Luke (inaudible).

LS: Um, when did you get out of it? Did you sell it?

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AA: Yes. His wife got (inaudible). After 17 years, it was time to give it up.

LS: (inaudible), what time?

AA: Around about 95.

LS: Do you have any memories you want to share about having a business over there?

AA: It was fine. We had a lot of cooperation. It was wide open. (Inaudible) retired from Wal-Mart.

LS: Okay. Um, can you think of any other significant businesses or restaurants 19:00that used to be in the neighborhood?

AA: We had (inaudible) shoe shop. (Inaudible), many years. Before it was Alan's, I think it was (inaudible).

LS: In the same spot?

AA: Yes.

LS: Was there a Jewish family?

AA: I think so. And there was an icehouse, probably down on Wahlberg Street, and Waters. An icehouse.

LS: Were they suppliers or could anybody go there to get ice?

AA: They would allow anybody to go in there.

LS: Did you go down there?

AA: (inaudible).

LS: Was that Georgia Ice Co.?

AA: I don't remember the name of it. I believe it was.

LS: Okay. Um, is there anything else you want to add?

AA: (inaudible) further south.

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LS: Those are the only questions that I have. So, if there's anything else you'd like to say, um, to add? Maybe about your experiences, how you feel about the neighborhood? Do you, I mean, is there anything you want to say about how you felt the entire time that you lived here? Positive or negative?

AA: I don't mess with that negative stuff. Well, um, as of now, it's clear that it's going to be redeveloped. The parks are going to be redeveloped. As you see, it's not too much for the kids to play on. And it is a concern to me because, when your kids come, we want them to come. But when they come, it's nothing to 21:00do. Some want to play basketball, and it's nothing. And I believe that it's more of a hazard, than it is helpful. (Inaudible) play on.

LS: So are there?

AA: (inaudible) supervised.

LS: Right. Are there definite plans to work on the Park?

AA: No, but there is a sign over there on that post. (Inaudible) happen.

LS: All right. I'll look (inaudible). Okay. Well, I want to thank you for talking with me. I appreciate it.