LS Today is August the 25th 2003. This is Luciana Spracher, project historian for the Benjamin
Van Clark Neighborhood Documentation Project of the City of Savannah's Department of
Cultural Affairs. I am speaking with Nancy Johnson, resident of the neighborhood at her private
residence in Savannah, Georgia.
What we're doing is a social history of the neighborhood and were focusing on three themes
and how they have effected the neighborhood. The first theme being transportation. The
second being desegregation in Savannah and the neighborhood. And the third being the
current revitalization efforts going on with the Hope VI Project. So, I'm going to ask you a few
background questions and then ask you a couple of questions that relate to those themes.
Could you please state your full name, including a middle and a maiden name?
NJ Okay, Nancy Taylor Johnson.
LS Okay, could you please state your birth date and place of birth, if you're comfortable?
NJ February 22nd, '37. Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.
LS OK, what is your current address or block number?
NJ My block number is 1300.
LS Of Collins Street?
NJ Right.
LS Okay, when did you move to this neighborhood?
NJ August of 1966.
LS Why did you choose this neighborhood to move to?
NJ Well, at the time this house was being built, we was looking for you know something to move
up, trying to get from an upstairs apartment. And so we find this location. Now before we
moved in this house it was like an open lot. You know, before this house was built. We used
to call it the mule man, he used to plant this ground. So, I guess they [inaudible] and built this
house for him, you know for sale, and we just caught it before they got through with it.
LS Okay, so you are the only people that ever lived here?
NJ First person to move into this house.
LS Tell me about, do you know anything else about the mule man?
Benjamin Van Clark Neighborhood Documentation Project
Neighborhood Oral History Project
Savannah Department of Cultural Affairs
NJ It was just a local person that used to farm, you know used to farm a mule. He used to farm
this area, go around farming.
LS Okay, where did you live prior to moving here?
NJ East Anderson, in the 600 block.
LS Okay, in the 600 block. Have you ever left the neighborhood and come back?
NJ No.
LS Where were you raised as a child, on Hilton Head?
NJ Hilton Head.
LS Okay, you moved here when you got married?
NJ I moved here in 1952, you know because Hilton Head was an island and most of the people
were sending their children off to school, so I came off to school in 1952, but I never went back
to live.
LS Okay, do you have children?
NJ Yes, I have one daughter, four grands and three great-grands.
LS Wow. Were they all raised in this neighborhood?
NJ My daughter and two of my grands and I have my little great-grand with me now, one of them,
and the rest of my grands are on Hilton Head with my daughter.
LS When your daughter was growing up, where did she go to school here?
NJ She went to Spencer, Hubert and Savannah High.
LS So, Spencer was a pretty new school when she started going there?
NJ Yeah, what happened was, Spencer, no Hubert was the new school. She had to go to
Spencer half a day until they get through building Hubert. So Hubert was the new school and
Spencer was here already.
LS Okay, did your daughter play in any of the neighborhood parks?
NJ Live Oak.
LS She played in Live Oak?
NJ Yes. But now it's Benjamin Van Clark Park, right over there.
LS I was going to ask you, do you remember when the park was renamed?
NJ I couldn't tell you exactly when that park was renamed, but it was after the, we had the Civil
Rights Movement here. And we was marching, Benjamin Van Clark was a young guy. What
happened, he just took sick and he died. So, we decided to give the park the name Benjamin
Van Clark. That's why this community become Benjamin Van Clark, because it used to be the
Live Oak.
LS Right, it was really the residents that wanted to rename it an honor of him or was it the city?
NJ Right, I don't know if it was the city or the residents. I couldn't verify that, but I'm most sure that
you'd be able to find it at the city. The city would tell you exactly when.
LS As far as the feeling of the residents, they wanted the park renamed?
NJ Yes.
LS Okay. Well, let me ask you little bit about the Civil Rights movement. When you moved into
this neighborhood, was it predominantly white?
NJ It was white.
LS White, okay. So were you the first on your block that wasn't white?
NJ I believe I was the first on the block that wasn't white. Because white folks was there, there,
there in the back [pointing out neighboring houses]. It was, yeah white.
LS What was the reaction, were they open, welcoming?
NJ Yes. I had, they did, you know. Okay, this lady over there that used to live in the yellow
house, and these people moved right after I moved in. This lady, she died and the lady in the
yellow house died. These people here, they moved out because they resents, you know, they
wasn't welcoming [pointing at houses].
LS Yeah.
NJ So, they moved out.
LS Did you, when did you notice a shift really starting to take place from more of a white
neighborhood to a black neighborhood?
NJ Right after I moved. There was one lady that moved right after I moved in and then it started
becoming black. I don't know if she moved in '67 or '68. The lady next door, she probably
moved in '68 or '69. But this house here, the girl bought this house, but she never lived in it. It
was always rented out, so that's why it's looking like that [pointing at houses].
LS Okay, there's always been a renter in it?
NJ Right, now the guy that was in that house over there, we moved at the same time. But he's
died, and his children. I think it was Mitchell, I can't remember whether she was there when I
moved or not. Because, you know I was fairly young when I came into this area and I was
always working.
LS What did you do?
NJ Foodservice with the Board of Education.
LS Okay, what school did you work at?
NJ Different schools, but I worked for 32 years before I retired.
LS Okay.
NJ My husband was a longshoreman at that time.
LS So he was working down at the docks?
NJ Right.
LS Okay, I wanted to ask you, during the Civil Rights period, do you know of any protest activity
that is actually taking place in this immediate area? Like, I know at St. Pius High School, they
had some meetings there, but as far as organizing, are you familiar with that at all?
NJ Some of it. I worked in the movement, I marched in it.
LS You did? Where did you, where did you march from to?
NJ Well, anyway, wherever there was a march, I would go there.
LS Okay, but none of the marches started around this neighborhood?
NJ No.
LS Besides Benjamin Van Clark, do you know of any other residents that lived in this
neighborhood that were leaders in the movement in Savannah?
NJ No, not in this neighborhood.
LS Okay, how do you think changes that were brought about by the Civil Rights affected
desegregation in this neighborhood?
NJ Well, I couldn't verify that because everybody has their own feelings. And when I moved here,
I was treated very well. I had no problems. But that was in '66, that was before we started this
movement, before I got involved in it. Because, when I moved here, in '66, I don't think I was
in the movement at that time. I was on the job or at home, so, I can't tell you anything about
the movement in this neighborhood.
LS Well, did you notice maybe more of a shift in the population maybe was occurring because of
Civil Rights?
NJ Well, the population only occurred when the blacks moved in and the whites beginning to
move out. The ones that didn't move out, they were old. So they, you know, died in the area.
And the ones that didn't die, they moved different places.
LS Okay, what about today, is the neighborhood mixed or is it pretty much segregated?
NJ It's segregated.
LS Okay, it's predominantly an African-American neighborhood.
NJ Just a few whites in this neighborhood and they's on like Henry Street.
LS Okay, let me ask you a few questions about Garden Homes. How did you feel about Garden
Homes when it was still in operation?
NJ Garden Homes, when I moved here Garden Homes was mostly white. They was, you know,
very quiet. And after the blacks started moving in, then everybody just went berserk. It was
terrible. Like I said, I was glad when they closed it. The traffic was much heavier up and down
the street. People were walking, you could hear guns shooting all time of night. I wouldn't say
that they break into my house, but I was breaked in here, must be about seven or eight times.
The last time I got breaked-in, they arrested the guy. And after that, I just began to put, secure
my house, because I'll be working and I come home and it's open.
LS Do you feel safer now that the housing is gone?
NJ Well, I feel much safer. But you know, you just, you ain't safe nowhere now you know? I don't
care where you move, there's something.
LS When you moved to this neighborhood, was is a safe, quiet neighborhood at that time?
NJ It was quiet.
LS How do you feel about the new Hope VI project and the proposed mixed-use housing?
NJ I couldn't tell you. When they come into this neighborhood, the neighborhood and the
organization they overlooked us. So I wouldn't know what the Hope VI consists of and I don't
know who would be moving back or what. There ain't too much I can say about Hope VI.
LS Okay. The City of Savannah has some programs in conjunction with the Hope VI for you
know, loans and stuff, for fixing up your house or anything like that. Are you familiar with
those?
NJ Yes.
LS Are you planning on taking advantage of any of them?
NJ I already did. The Housing Authority, I signed up for it, it's not a loan, you know how they fix
your house up as long as I'm living here. They put a roof on, and paint. And they put
insulation in the ceiling.
LS And what was the name of the program?
NJ It was World Changes.
LS So you're happy with it?
NJ Yeah, they did a beautiful job.
LS Are you involved at all with the neighborhood association?
NJ Uh-hum.
LS How long have you been with them?
NJ Well, ever since we started it. Ever since we started it. At first it used to be Live Oak
Community, I was the Secretary. We didn't have no meetings, we used to move from house to
house. And all those people, just a few of us survived, that was still involved in the Live Oak.
And, Benjamin Van Clark, the organization, come about when they did the drainage right here.
The drainage system that went down here. And it was taken out, it was wrecking people's
houses, because my house, and I have some cracks in there now. Um, that was caused by
that project. That house over there, that house was completely torn down. They had to tear
that house down because, they was so messed up. They had to rebuild her. The house on
Anderson, I mean on Henry and Cedar, they rebuilt that. But, we were just a project and that's
when Van Clark Association formed at that particular time. That's when they changed the
name to the Van Clark Association. Because Live Oak, sort of, vanished a little.
LS So when you first moved to this neighborhood, did you call this immediate neighborhood Live
Oak neighborhood?
NJ Okay, this is um, this neighborhood, wasn't called any. It wasn't an association.
LS Well not necessarily a neighborhood association, but when somebody asked you where do
you live, would you say, oh I live over in Live Oak or I live in Collinsville?
NJ Okay, now let's see what the name of this, it's a name for this place? What is it?
LS Is it the Meadows?
NJ Uh-uh. I can't remember the name here. Ballantyne Ward. Okay, Ballantyne Ward. That's
what it was called. And I think they still have it registered.
LS Well , that's your Ward.
NJ The section that I'm living in. That's what it was.
LS Okay, so that's how you referred to it?
NJ Right.
LS Okay, what kind of changes have you noticed in the neighborhood since you've lived here?
We've already talked about population, maybe like landscapes, or businesses, maybe the
architecture? Have you noticed any big changes?
NJ No. The only thing we got changes, them stores over there. They was there, they just opened
up different.
LS On what street?
NJ On Wheaton Street. They just opened up the stores. And Waters Avenue they had a bakery
at one time. All that has vanished.
LS So you would just over to Waters or Wheaton to shop?
NJ No, I get my groceries. I can't remember that grocery store. M & M. And they was way, you
know, over. We didn't have a grocery store in this section. We had a little shops, but we didn't
have grocery stores.
LS Okay. Can you think of any other maybe businesses or shops you want to mention?
MJ Okay, at that time we had the post office, it was that building over on Anderson and Waters,
that was like a post office. But I don't how long that lasted. I can remember that.
LS It was here when you came?
NJ Uh-huh, it was here when I came.
LS Okay, finally I want to ask if there is anything that you want to add? Maybe about your
personal experiences or people that you knew, that may be gone now?
NJ No, not really. Only Miss Mitchell, the lady lived right there in the 1200 block. She raised a lot,
she raised her grand. But she's gone. But that's, the rest of the people that was here, Miss
Turner, she's still here. And Miss Moore, um, next door. But that's, further down, I'm
acquainted with further down, but you know, I don't visit.
LS Can you think of anybody that's been here a long time that I need to talk to for this project? Is
there anybody that you can think of?
NJ Did you talk to Miss Turner?
LS Gladys Turner?
NJ Uh-huh.
LS Yes, I have.
NJ At the end of this street, very end of the street, there's the Gregorys. They was right at Garden
Homes.
LS Right, Okay, Okay. So at the end of Collins?
NJ Right, it's a brick house sitting on that side [north side of the street].
LS Okay.
NJ These people over on this side are new. Gregory and them been there a pretty good while.
LS So on the north side, of Collins Street at the corner of Bee Road? Okay, well I will check this
out. Well, I want to thank you for your time. You've been very helpful.
NJ That's Ash.
LS Oh, on the corner of Ash. That's right, Bee's on the other side.
NJ Bee's all the way over.
LS Okay, well thank you for your time and talking to me Mrs. Johnson.