Oral history interview of E. Neal Harris

Collection:: Veterans History Project: Oral History Interviews
Title:: Oral history interview of E. Neal Harris
Creator:: Vick, Archer
Harris, Neal Elbert, 1924-2008
Date of Original:: 2003-07-16
Subject:: Liberty ships
P-40 (Fighter plane)
Artillery--United States
50 Caliber gun
Escort fighter planes--United States
B-24 (Bomber)
Douglas DC-4 (Transport plane)
Mustang (Fighter plane)
World War, 1939-1945--Prisoners and prisons
Messerschmitt Bf 109 (Fighter plane)
Prisoners of war--Germany
Prisoners of war--United States
Ile de France (Steamship)
United States. Army Air Forces. Fighter Group, 479th
Stalag VII A
United States. Army Air Forces. Aviation Cadet Corps
Curtiss P-40 Warhawk fighter plane
Consolidated B-24 Liberator (heavy bomber)
Douglas C-54 Skymaster (transport)
Curtiss-Wright Corporation P-40 Tiger Shark
People:: Gleason, George W., 1917-2000
Olds, Robin, 1922-2007
Zemke, Hubert, 1914-1994
Haynes, Clarence G., 1921-2005
Patton, George S. (George Smith), 1885-1945
Tibbets, Paul W. (Paul Warfield), 1915-2007
Miller, Glenn, 1904-1944
Location:: France, 46.0, 2.0
Germany, Moosburg an der Isar, 48.4667, 11.9333
United Kingdom, England, Royal Air Force Wattisham
United Kingdom, England, Wattisham, 52.1261961, 0.9367006
United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018
United States, Georgia, Atlanta Metropolitan Area, 33.8498, 84.4383
Medium:: video recordings (physical artifacts)
mini-dv
Type:: Moving Image
Format:: video/quicktime
Description:: In this interview, Neal Harris describes his experiences as an Army Air Force pilot and POW during World War II. He flew escort missions over Germany accompanying the bombers. He was shot down, captured, and spent time in a German prisoner of war camp. He relates the conditions in the camp, his liberation from the camp by Patton's troops and his return to the United States. He describes post-war meetings with other veterans, participating in veterans' groups and how they helped him heal.
E. Neal Harris was an Army Air Forces pilot in Europe during World War II.
DR. ALBERT NEAL HARRIS, DDS 1489 Rainier Falls Atlanta, Georgia WWII Oral Histories Atlanta History Center With Archer Vick July 16, 2003 [Tape 1, Side A] Vick: My name is Archer Vick and today I'm gonna be talking with Mr. Harris, Dr. Harris. And Dr. Harris, would you go ahead and give us your full name? Harris: Albert Neal Harris, DDS. Vick: And what is your current address? Harris: 1489 Rainier Falls, Atlanta. Vick: What is uh…what was your date of birth? Harris: Ten June, ‘24. That's 1924. Vick: And you are a veteran of what war? Harris: World War II, and I was called back in the Korean War but as I…I had…when they assessed me, they found out that I was teaching at the dental school at Emory and so they released me and I went back to teaching. Vick: Okay. Harris: I [inaudible] the other war. Vick: What branch of service were you in? Harris: It was the Army Air Corps when I joined, right after Pearl Harbor, but it turned later and now it's the Air Corps instead of…I mean the Air Force instead of Air Corps. Vick: Today is July 16, 2003, and we're gonna talk with Mr.…Dr. Harris today and we're gonna find out a little bit more about his experiences in World War II. And basically I'd like to go ahead and start, let you start from the beginning and just talk to us. Harris: Well, when I got back from the prison camp where I was, when I got back and got back to the United States, I called my folks from Virginia, where I landed in the liberty boat and that was the first time they found out that I was alive, because I had been reported missing in action and was captured and spent the last part of the war as a POW. But they never knew I was alive until I got back. Is that what you're relating? After I got back, I'd forgot about all the things that had happened to me. Everybody had a story. I got back, went back to school and I started thinking that I was going change from pharmacy as my primary target to dentistry, which is what I did. And I started by doing…coming to…I had no car, so I hitchhiked to Atlanta and applied to go to dentist school. They said, “Yes, we'll take your name. We have a list of about twenty-one hundred waiting for a class of a hundred and twenty and we'll see what happens.” And so when they told me that…I had no, as I said, I had no car and I started hitchhiking back and forth up here to the dental school several times and finally, I'm sitting out in the class…in the reception room and the dentist…the dean walked by and he recognized me and he said, “Neal, come in this…come in my office”. And I thought, “Well, he's gonna call the police”. He just said, “Sit down and if you'll tell me…if you'll promise to quit coming up here, we're going to accept you in this class”. And that's how I got in the dental school. Vick: Okay. Can you tell me, when did you first enlist in the military? Harris: The day after Pearl Harbor. Vick: Okay. And what do you remember about that? Harris: I was in, a bud…at a high school buddy's house and we heard about Pearl Harbor and I just got…I don't know. I was just stunned like everybody else, I guess. And the next day I was in an ROTC Reserves type of unit, no active duty, of course. And I was at that stage…let's see. I was 17, I guess. Vick: You were 17? Harris: Born in ‘24. That's about right, isn't it? Yep. Vick: Is that something you were afraid to do? Harris: No, no. I was…well yes, I was afraid one time. I love this answer to that question. I was afraid one time and that's when I got in the service and I stayed scared the whole time and anybody who says they weren't is lying. But anyway, I was able to join the Air Force, or Air Corps, the next day. Vick: Tell me a little bit about basic training. Do you remember that? Harris: I went to basic training in the regular Army outfit that I was in, but waiting to be going into the Air…I mean Cadet Corps. And I had to wait my turn. That took several months. Finally, I got in the Cadet Corps anyway and wound up that I soloed in ‘43 and I got my wings in April of 1944. I got my silver wings in ‘44 in a single engine. And then I was assigned to the P-40, the first fighter that I flew. Incidentally, that had no twin-seat 40s. The first time you got in the 40 was the first time you flew it. And I loved it and continued to fly the P-40. Vick: What's is like to fly [inaudible]? Harris: They…powerful and very…you're the only one aboard and you had control and I liked that. And you had a lot of power. But of course, you didn't have the advantage of any instruction except local land instruction. Anyway, after I went to the unit in Fort Myers, Florida, I was sent overseas and I joined the 479th Fighter Group and my CO was Colonel Zemke and he was a famous fighter pilot. And my squadron commander was Robin Olds, who later became commanding officer of the Air Force Cadet Academy and who wound up like I did as a prisoner of war. But that was later. And…does that answer the question? Vick: Yes, sir. Do you remember arriving in England? Harris: Yes. Vick: Tell me about that. The first day. Harris: We were on that…one of those liberty boats. I mean…no, I'm sorry. That was coming back. We were on the Ile de France, which was the third largest boat in the ocean at that time and it was an amazing cruise. I was awed by the boat. We landed in Scotland and finally got on a train and wound up down in Moose…not Mooseberg [phonetic], Radisham, England, and we were…I joined the 479th fighter group. And it was the base for the RAF, primarily the base for the RAF that we were assigned to. And it was well done. Vick: Were you proud to be a part of that? Harris: I was absolutely tickled to death. Vick: Was it…was it something that…was that a dream for you, to be a pilot? Harris: Yes. It always had been, way before the war. Vick: Where did you get the interest? Harris: I just…I don't know. I can't really identify that. That's a good question. Vick: When you were there and the first week or so that you were there in England, what time of year was it? Was it winter? Harris: It was…it was the summer of forty-four. Vick: Okay. I imagine it's pretty hot. Harris: Yeah. Vick: At that point during your…during your career there, tell me a little bit about your mission. Tell me a little bit about the people you flew with. Harris: Well, Col. Zemke was the big…the commander and was one of the leading aces. Robin Olds, who was my squadron commander…there were three squadrons…four squadrons in our group. A group is the outfit. It's the 479th group and my squadron was the 434th Fighter Squadron, commanded by Robin Olds, who later became the CO of the Air Force Academy. And he was also a prisoner of war as I was. But…and I was on his wing the day I went down. But I saw him later. It was not in combat. It was later, after the war. Vick: Did you have a best friend at that time? Harris: Yes, and I don't recall his name, but I do know who…what you're referring to and I think that I identified my best friend at the time, my flight leader. And his name was…I cannot say it. But anyway, he was the one who I looked up to and followed. And as a matter of fact, as the wing man and then as the…as I graduated to the flight leader, I protected him. And of course, leading…he led me and I protected him. That's what it amounted to. Vick: So you gained…the relationships you had there were pretty close. Harris: Personal. Yes. Yes. I mean it was…I remember when I had a phone call about six months ago here from the guy that was on my wing when I went down. And we were in a dogfight over Berlin, near Berlin. And I would firewall the engine, that Merlin Rolls Royce engine. And it quit. There I am making a dive on a German fighter and the engine blew and it just quit. And all of a sudden, there I am in that sky by myself and it didn't really dawn on me at the time about what I was and where I was as much as trying to get the airplane under control and to save my life. My wing man followed me down and with no engine, you only have one chance to find a place to land and that's [inaudible] field. Vick: Did you have communications? Harris: I had… Vick: Between your wing man? Harris: Yes, un-huh. Vick: And who was your wing man? Harris: His name…I have it written here. Vick: Okay. Harris: It's all right. I have it and he called me about…several months ago. And his last words with me after…well, first of all I found a field to land which was a plowed field next to some woods. And I happened to find one and you get one shot at that landing at the field. And I happened to do right and made the landing real easy and made it perfectly. And I skidded to a stop and the last words I said were…the last words I heard rather over the radio was from this wing man who was on my…who was following me, “See you after the war”. And I got out of the…jumped out of the airplane and ran into the woods. We were told beforehand to have something white to identify for surrender, which I did have a scarf and I had my .45 in my holster and I ran out…got out of the airplane with that and ran into the woods. And all of a sudden I heard this rattling effect of shell casings falling through the woods from my airplanes that I was leading, strafing my airplane, which was the thing to do so that the Germans could not use it. Vick: Do you remember looking back and seeing your plane? Harris: Not really. I looked up and I saw them pass over and I remember this though, and I've use this phrase very much. I was scared just one time and that's when I got there and I stayed scared the whole time, believe me. Vick: Was it…what time of day was it? Harris: It was early afternoon. Vick: Was it hot or cold? Harris: It was cold. Vick: Was it raining? Harris: But it was…I mean it was chilly. It wasn't freezing or anything like that. Vick: What time of year was it? Do you remember? Harris: Early in ‘45. Vick: Okay. So could it be maybe fall? Harris: There was snow on the ground. But, I mean, it was something that I could deal with because I had my long underwear on underneath my flying outfit and my leather jacket and I kept all that stuff with me. Vick: So after the point…you were at…you had gone into the woods and you could hear the shell casings from your buddies destroying the…your plane. What happened after that? Harris: As I say, the thing that I remember about that most was the silence that I heard…didn't hear of my airplanes leaving and I knew I was alone and I was in the middle of that area and didn't have anybody to turn to. And I knew that if anybody saw me it would be bad. So I started hiding. I ran into…I was in the woods, which is where I had landed, next to the woods. Vick: Did you have any idea where you were located? Harris: Oh, yeah. I knew where I was. Vick: Where you were [inaudible]. Where were you? Harris: Between Berlin and the town where I was…near where I was landed. I can't say the name of it right… Vick: By chance was it north or south of Berlin? Harris: It was southwest of Berlin. Vick: Southwest. Okay. And just a guess, how many miles could it have been? Harris: I don't know. Twenty, thirty. Something like that. Vick: So it's fairly close. And um… Harris: I'm guessing at that mileage. I've had…I'm a map freak, but I don't have one in front of me. Vick: That's just fine. Go right ahead with your story, sir. Harris: Anyway, I knew that anybody that saw me was the wrong thing and the uh…the first thing that…the next thing that I recall was hearing those shell casings from our airplanes falling through the woods where I was. Because they were strafing the airplane that I had just gotten out of. And the airplane was named “Lil' Droopy”. That's L-I-L Droopy. People kept asking me how I got that name and that's another story and I won't go into that, but it's obviously a funny one. Vick: What…so what happened next? I mean you're… Harris: Well, it got real quiet and all of a sudden I realize I'm alone. I had a little…this is an interesting story, believe me. In a white scarf around my neck…all fighter pilots had to keep from chafing our neck as we looked around to see where we were and the other fighters. In the scarf…in the hem of that scarf, rather, was a little compass, which was my answer to where I was and where I'm going. And I…that's an interesting story and I'm going to tell part of the story. It's in this frame right here. The Germans never found that compass and the reason they didn't find it was cause I took it out of the…I took it out of the scarf that I had on, the hem of the scarf and put it in the lower part of my digestive tract. And the Germans never found it. And that's the compass. Vick: Okay. There's the compass right there. Harris: Anyway, I think it was about two days later…oh, I…did I mention the fact about the scarf? Vick: About the compass…was in the scarf. Harris: Now, by that time, my wing man and my flight were strafing my airplane and I was out of sight and had no problem there. I mean I was not being hit. Anyway, I was surrounded later…two days later by Germans and I knew it. And I had a .45, but I wasn't about to get into…I was scared. Vick: What was the first time that you had seen or that you knew the Germans were around? Harris: Well, I saw them from time to time as I was hiding. And I would… Vick: How close were they? Harris: Some of them would get real close, maybe fifteen or twenty yards away on a…say on a road and I'm below some hedges or whatever. Vick: Could you hear them talking? Harris: Yeah. Vick: Were you scared? Harris: Only once and that's when I got there and I stayed scared and that's no kidding. I mean, that's not a funny joke. I was scared as hell, really. Pardon the language but that's the truth. Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: Anyway, finally I knew I was surrounded and I did not want them to kill me. I mean, I was scared. But I did remember the rules that they had told me, to try and give yourself up if you have to, to an older soldier rather than a civilian. And in this group of people, I saw this old man who was a German soldier. And I came out of the hiding place and surrendered. Vick: What did he do? Harris: He turned around and he said in German…I don't remember…I don't know what he said but it was not…it wasn't that bad. Vick: Was he…was he astonished? Was he surprised? Harris: No, no. He was surprised. I shocked him. But I mean he…he was looking for me. Vick: Right. Okay. So he's… Harris: I opened my flight jacket and reached in there with my hand, gently pulled out that .45 and handed it to him and pointed to my insignia as a ranking officer and that was it. I was a prisoner. Vick: What, at that point in time, what went through your mind? Harris: This sounds really ludicrous and all but it's true. Anybody who says they weren't scared is lying. I mean I was absolutely petrified. But I did have some relief, knowing that I was in their custody instead of them chasing me with guns. It was a relief to be captured or to be surrendered and know that they are not gonna shoot me or at least I didn't think they were at that time. Then what happened was they took me to this little farmhouse, I guess it was, out in that isolated area and put me in the basement of this little house or cabin or whatever it was. And in that place there were two other men and I was too scared to speak to them. They were American soldiers or airmen or something. And I didn't say anything to them. But during this period of time, I think it was maybe over a two-day period, and in the…maybe the second day, five German soldiers came in the room where we were in this basement. They got in an argument. Vick: They being the Germans? Harris: They… Vick: With one another? Harris: With…an argument. And they were discussing something. And all of a sudden they got both the other two and me up against the…put us up against the wall of this basement and stood back on the other side of the room and I heard those rifle bolts click and I remember thinking, “I hope my mother finds out what happened to me”. And the bottom line is what they got in an argument about, they…everything got real quiet and I heard those rifle bolts click and a calm came over me. A complete calm. They fired into the wall next to my head and instead of killing me they beat the hell out of me. It's a wonder I have eyes or teeth. This arm was broken and I was bloody and just mashed up. Vick: Were they…how old do you…would you say the German gentlemen…or they weren't gentlemen, but these soldiers… Harris: They were just soldiers. I don't really know. Vick: Could they…okay. Harris: They weren't old. Vick: Were they bigger than you? Harris: Oh yeah. Well, about my size I guess. But I don't really know. Vick: Okay. Harris: All I could think of was “monster”. And those other two men had the same thing happened to them. Of course, I never spoke to them. I didn't know who they were or anything about them. After I came to, they drug me out and put me on a train, kind of a… Vick: [Inaudible] train from where… Harris: I have…I don't know. Vick: Were you blindfolded? Harris: No. But I was not able to walk by myself. They put me on this train and the train started running, moving and there was a German guard in this freight train type of a coach there. Vick: Were you in pain? Harris: Oh, God, yes. Vick: What was hurting? Harris: Everything. My ribs were broken, this arm was broken. It's a wonder I have eyes or teeth, as I said before. But… Vick: They didn't give you any medical attention? Harris: Not that I recall. No…I mean, you know, you'd think maybe an aspirin or something. I did have a cloth and I did use my towel and so forth. And I was conscious. But like an idiot, when the train started moving, there was nobody watching me and I jumped off that train down an embankment, down a grassy knoll off the train. They stopped and caught me again and put me back on the train. Then we went to our first prison camp. Let me just say that there are more…we were on one of those so-called quote death marches, which was in fact true. From there, from Nuremberg down to Mooseberg [phonetic], where I wound up at my last prison camp, Risess [phonetic] in southern Germany, just above…I mean…a big city in south Georgia, I mean… Vick: In south Germany? Harris: South Germany. Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: Anyway, we got strafed by our own airplanes. Vick: Now, when you say, “We got strafed”, were you in a…at that time… Harris: We were marching in our own unit. Vick: So you were on the ground. You weren't on a train. Harris: We were on the ground by this…at this time. And the Germans…were the…we had been told not to break rank and to wave something white. And I had that white scarf and I…all of us who did waved the white scarves and the fighters, our fighters, made a pass at us but didn't shoot and saved our live, of course, by telling them who we were. They figured we were prisoners and we were. Vick: But you…but they had already been strafing…you were strafed one time? Harris: Well, I wasn't but they were strafing around us. Vick: Okay. Harris: Anyway, they found us and didn't strafe. Vick: Did they tip their wing? Harris: Yeah. When they passed over, they did this. I remember that. That's an interesting question and that's the answer. But they didn't… Vick: The pilot would have been able to see you guys [inaudible]. Harris: There were, I think, either seven or eight B-51s. And they left. Vick: Do you remember seeing that now? Do you remember seeing… Harris: Yes. Let me just say that after the war, everybody came home, had a story to tell and I went back to school and got…back off…tried to forget about it. And I'm going to tell you how this came back into my thoughts. Okay. After that German prison camp firing squad, so forth and so on, we were liberated by George Patton. By the way, I opened the gate for him when he came in our…our place down in Mooseberg. Stalag 7, I think it was. I weighed a hundred and sixteen or so pounds. Walked down the road with George Patton and you know what I remember about him? Two things. First of all, he'd just gotten his fourth star and there must have been eight thousand stars on him and his…his uniform and his Jeep. He was sitting in the back of that Jeep and every word he said was a cuss word. And I applauded that in my mind. I believed him. But anyway, they flew us back out in that…and I remember flying over France. We passed by Paris and we…the pilot actually buzzed the Eiffel Tower and wagged his wings at the Eiffel Tower. And we went back out to Fay [phonetic] Camp, France, to the coast. And we were put in one of these waiting places to get on a liberty boat. And while we were waiting, we had the buddy system and my buddy…that means one of us was awake at all times. There were two together. We were pairs. Everybody had a buddy. One of us was awake while the other one slept, whenever that was. Anyway, he was from New Orleans and he knew where there was a monastery where they were making some kind of champagne or something down on the coast of France. He said, “Let's go down there”. We went down there and talked one of the monks out of a bottle of that champagne. We knew if we took it back we'd have to share it. So we sat down on the edge of that beach and drank that champagne. And you talk about sick. I still remember how sick that stuff made me. Anyway, we got on the liberty boat to come, we got back in the water and I'm asleep in my bunk on that liberty boat. It was so packed with former prisoners that we slept in shifts. And my shift to sleep came up and I was in my bunk and all of a sudden I felt this warm body next to me, cuddling up with me and I thought, “Oh no.” It had been a long time, but not that long. I turned to him and I remember saying some words that I wouldn't repeat here. “Get away from me or you're dead.” Anyway, got rid of him. Vick: Tell me, sir, a little bit about…more about at that point in time you were…you guys were in a moving prisoner of war or… Harris: No, we were in the last stalag where I was liberated. Vick: What was it like there? Harris: Well, it was well organized, but we had no food. The Germans had no food to give us. Vick: Was it pretty dirty? Harris: I was looked after pretty well by this older guard that I told you about. And yeah, it was dirty because it wasn't like the old German outfit that you would have expected to see. Vick: Do you remember the name of that German that helped you? Harris: No. No, I don't. Vick: Why would he help you? Harris: He was just old and he didn't want to…I guess they knew they were losing. Vick: And how did he help you? Harris: Well, he would give me water and look after me and help me to get to the bathroom. We didn't call it the bathroom at that time, but that's what it was. I didn't have anything to deliver to the bathroom much because I had no food. I told you how little I weighed. Vick: How long were you in prison? Harris: Just the last couple…three months. And the essence of the story was carried on after the war because we didn't get food immediately and we were…all I could think about…I forgot about girls and all that. I forgot about everything except peanut butter, which…what I mentioned. And I think they weighed me in, what did I say, a hundred and six or seven pounds when they weighed me. Anyway, later after the French stay for a while, they put me on a liberty boat, got back to the United States. We landed in Virginia and I called home. And that was a touching thing because that was the first thing…the first time they knew I was alive. They had gotten this liberty…I mean, this telegram from the Air Corps—it was corps at the time, not force—that says missing in action. I have that telegram in my keeper here. That's a touching thing. I have it here. But…oh, I might mention this, too. Before I got out of prison, I had the opportunity to go into their headquarters and get their records of me. These are those records with my picture on it. And if I look scared it's accurate. Now the thing that…the most interesting thing that I have to say is coming up. Let me just say that I got home, went back to school after I called them. Got back, went back to school. My son, now, joined Delta Air Lines, which I helped do because after I finished dental school, started my own practice after teaching at Emory, I was very honored, after I sold my last airplane after my private teaching sessions on my own time. Anyway, this guy came to me as a patient and we started talking and I realized that I'm talking to the guy who was the son of the man who was in that prison camp before the firing squad. I couldn't believe it. I called him and we got to talking and identified each other by what we knew, not the names. We didn't know each other's name. Vick: Now the firing squad… Harris: Was in the basement of that building when I was a prisoner. Vick: Wow. Harris: And here I am, talking to the man whose son I'm seeing as a patient. And I couldn't believe it. But we have a bond. We found the third man who he knew. And I had no idea. He lived in Idaho. Isn't that an amazing story. Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: Put together by two men, I mean two sons, who wouldn't be here if we had been killed. We have a bond, as I say, and I'm in touch with him all the time. Vick: Could you give us their names? Harris: Ray Banks. Vick: And the other one? Harris: I can't recall his name, but I had it written down. I had [inaudible]. I'm at that stage of the game now where I don't remember everything as much. In fact, I have to look at my card sometimes to remember my name to be sure I get that straight, particularly if I'm in a [inaudible] somewhere. [laughs] I used to use that as a joke, but it's getting more accurate. Vick: When you came back was it difficult after being a prisoner to…and being in the war to come back to a civilian life? Harris: Thank you for asking that question because that has been asked many times. And let me just say that everybody had a story. I didn't think…I tried to put it behind me. I didn't even talk about it. To heck with that. I'm glad to be home. I started talking about what courses I was going to take, where I was gonna live, what I was gonna do. Tried to get in touch with my relatives. And I went back to school, forgot about it. And when I graduated, as I mentioned before, first, the reason I stayed in Atlanta was because I'd been asked to stay and teach, which was unheard of. When I was a junior in dental school, they asked me to stay and teach. There must have been a big shortage. [laughs] But that's what happened and that's how I became a faculty member and then later in my own practice. Vick: What was it like to be a fighter pilot in a dogfight? Harris: I think I know what you mean. I think the word aggressive is the word that makes success of a fighter pilot. And the other word that overshadows any of the others is scared. Anybody who says they weren't scared is a damn liar. That's how I am. Vick: Do you remember any firefights? Harris: Oh, yeah. Vick: Could you tell us about one? Harris: I was lucky not to have been shot down, but I was a pretty good pilot. And when I was following as a wing man, I was with the right guy who made the right turns. It was a matter of who got there first as far as fighter pilots are concerned. And our job was not attack as much as it was prevent, because we were escorting those B-24 bombers primarily. Vick: When you were in the air could you see your opponent, the enemy? Could you see the pilot? Harris: The first thing that a fighter pilot learns is never stop looking. Look around all the time, everywhere all the time. Keep your head moving. The one you don't see is the one that's gonna kill you. Those fighter pilots of Germany was the ones that I was looking for. I remember being attacked by one of our planes who misunderstood who I was, but he didn't hit me, thank God. But I saw him coming and I turned into him. You always turn into your…to your attacker. Vick: What's the closest you think you ever came to actually being close to a German um… Harris: I got hit by shrapnel off of…when we were on a strafing run. I got hit by ground fire. But it didn't…it wasn't enough to ground me. The thing about an inline engine, I think I mentioned before, is that one little nick in that air cooler, I mean, water coolant or liquid coolant, one little nick and you're dead, you're out of…that engine will go dead within just a minute or so as opposed to the radial air-cooled engine of the P-47. Anyway, the B-51 that I was flying was a high-altitude, used primarily as an escort as opposed to this P-47 was used for the strafing ground attack. How much time? Vick: You're doing fine. Tell me…[tape stops] [Tape 1, Side B] [Partial duplication of end of Side A and beginning of Side B] Vick: Did you have any men in your unit that lost their lives? Harris: Oh, yes. Also, I've had two other reunions with other pilots who were, as I mentioned earlier, the wing man who was the last one. I'll never forget those words when he said, “See you after the war”. And you know who showed up about two weeks later? He did, as a prisoner. So I saw him before “after the war”. [laughs] Vick: You saw him in prison? Harris: Yes. Vick: Do you remember saying anything to him? Harris: No, we didn't ever get together, but I did see him. Now, the real other interesting thing to him is that about, oh I don't know, several months ago, he called me from West Virginia and he says, “Is this the…is this the Neal Harris that I flew with?” And I said, “Who is this? Who is this?” And we got together on the phone. It touched my heart. Vick: I bet. Harris: Really. Cause you know, you don't expect that. When… Vick: Could you give us his name? Do you remember? Harris: I've got it written down. Vick: That's fine. That's not a problem. Harris: Believe me, we have a bond and I do know his name. I can't say it. Vick: Right. Harris: But as…say the…a wing man and his leader…of an element…called an element leader and his wing man had a bond like you would expect them to have. Vick: You've told me about several experiences in…are there any other experiences that you had maybe while you were in prison or maybe while you were flying? Harris: Oh. I know one of them that is interesting. One day the colonel and…at my…in my airbase in England called me in and says, “Tomorrow we're going to have the day off. We're gonna be ‘stood down'” as we called it. “And I want you to take that C-54 high-wing monoplane out there…” Vick: What is that? Harris: High-wing monoplane, a four…five passenger monoplane. One engine. “Take it up to Scotland and pick up the party supplies.” Now what he meant was Scotch. Well, I don't drink now and haven't for over fif…well, seventeen years. But I did at that time drink. Not when I was flying, but I did. Reminds me, quickly I'll tell you of the…of the French drink that I had when I was liberated and I got so drunk I couldn't even stand up. But anyway, I took off in that airplane after the crew chief told me how to start it, flew up to Scotland in that horrible weather, found the airport, landed, picked up that airplane full of booze, took off and flew back down to my airport in that damn horrible weather, landed. We were unloading the airplane and guess who drove up…out of one of those two cars that drove up was my hero, Glenn Miller. Glenn Miller was really a wonderful guy, although I didn't know him personally. I did speak to him. He might have spoken to me. I was a trombone player in high school. Later played the trombone after the war. Joined the Atlanta Symphony. I think I mentioned that. I had my own dance band here in Atlanta, playing the trombone. He got in my airplane, that C-54 Norseman and I stood there and watched him take off into that horrible weather and that was that. But it was quite a story. Now, after the war I found out that he had died in that flight in that airplane that I had just flown. I couldn't believe it. But it was documented by the same airplane and the same date. He was going to France to entertain the French troops who were in place there at the time. My concept of why he was lost and he was lost is that he probably was hit by the German…I mean by the U.S. Air Force…Air Force planes coming back. They were jettisoning their unused bombs into the North Sea. You follow that? Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: Our bombs probably hit his plane. He was never discovered, never seen or heard from any more. That was that. Vick: He was the only one in the plane? Harris: Well no, there was a pilot. I think there were two of them. But that…and I didn't know anything about that until after the war. I mean…so what? In fact, I didn't hear about it. But it really touched my heart when I did find out about it. Vick: When you were in prison…can you tell me about an average day? What happened…give me a…think of a day in your mind [inaudible]. Harris: Well, first it was, “Where are we?” I'll just be…I'll just try to be brief and accurate. Secondly, I think it was, “I'm hungry”. The German food ration got less and less. Vick: Where did you sleep? Harris: We slept…first of all, I would say again we had a pair system. Whoever…we had a buddy system. One of us was awake at all times. And we would sleep wherever we could when we were on the march and when we had shelter we would swap times in the so-called bed or bunk or wherever we were. Sometimes we had a comfortable place and sometimes not. Vick: Could you talk to one another? Harris: Oh, yeah. In fact that's how you chose him. I chose a guy who was another fighter pilot and who I trusted because I liked him. Vick: Was he about your age? Harris: Yeah. And obviously he wasn't too bright because he was a fighter pilot [laughs]. But we… Vick: What did you like about him? Harris: His aggressiveness. Vick: What was he aggressive about? What [inaudible]… Harris: “I don't like these SOBs” and I didn't either, but I didn't tell them that. We told each other and we worked at each other. And we guarded each other. One of us, as I said, was awake to see what was happening and why we might be moved. See, at that point we really never had a place that we could call home, so to speak. We were on the move. Vick: And why do think they were moving you so much? Harris: Hell, because the Allies were approaching. It was toward the end of the war. Thank God I didn't have that much time in prison camp. Vick: Right. Harris: They were approaching and that's when I was telling you about George Patton. He caught up with us down in Mooseberg [phonetic]. Did I mention that before? Vick: Yes, sir. When you were in this traveling or when you were in prison were any of the inmates killed? Harris: Yeah. Vick: How were they killed? Harris: Sometimes…one time, as I told you, they were strafed by our airplanes, but I didn't have a problem there. I had a problem but I wasn't hit. Vick: Did the Germans kill any prisoners? Harris: I didn't see it but I heard it. I don't know. Vick: It was… Harris: But they did, yeah. There were those that tried to escape and they were shot. And I'm sure there were arguments and confrontations that caused it, but I was never present when one got hit. Vick: Can you tell me a little bit, sir, about the night? Harris: Oh. If we had…we were…my last thoughts during my last days were nothing but peanut butter. I'm not kidding. All I could think…I forgot about girls, sex, all of that. And all I could think was peanut butter. I was hungry and I weighed, as I told you before, I weighed a hundred and six pounds when they evaluated me in France. But during that period of time I carved out of a piece of wood with a piece of glass this knife in case I ever had something to eat. And that was the [clinking noise]… Vick: How did you keep that knife on you? Harris: I just had it in my pocket as a piece of wood. Vick: Would they have taken it… Harris: I don't how I got it back. It came home when I went through my debris. Here's an interesting thing: This is a New Testament that I carried through the war in my pocket. Vick: Even when you were a prisoner? Harris: Yep. This thing had a so-called bulletproof shield on it. We were told that that was to protect us. And then…in that…there's some wording in that. Vick: Would you like… Harris: On the front page. But that's very much of a personal keepsake. Vick: It says, “To Neal from Mother with all my love. October ninth, 1944”. Harris: It's just when I went overseas. I told you about the compass. Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: Anyway, the other things that…of interest…oh. When I was liberated, a German guard, an older man, gave me this bayonet. Look at the swastika. Vick: Where were you when he gave you that? Harris: Mooseberg [phonetic]. He was an older man. The older men were more sympathetic with us and took care of us better. Vick: The older soldiers? Harris: The older Germans, yes. Vick: And he gave you this when… Harris: When…after…after we were liberated, he surrendered that to me. As a gesture. It's a personal thing that means something to me, you know. Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: I also had…this was in stuff that was sent home after I was a prisoner and I was still an MIA. I showed you…did I not show you the telegram that was received by the family? Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: Okay. That is what we call a silver dollar and what you did in those days when I was in combat, it was the thing to take your buddy to the bar and have a drink with him and have him sign that dollar bill. And there were a lot of big-time signatures on there of my group. Vick: Why did they do that? Harris: Just for the hell of it. For the fun of it. Robin Olds was one that was the leader of my group, squadron when I went down. He later became the CO of the Air Force Academy. Vick: Would you like to read out some of those names? Harris: Well, this was the Radisham silver dollar, short-snorter as it was called. And some of the names in there: Duval, Haynes, who was my wing man, who was the man who called me. This is a touching thing just to sit here and talk with you. Believe me. Didn't mean anything to anybody, but it touches my heart to know these people. And believe it or not, there were some people in there who were fighter pilots who actually had some sense. It wasn't a requirement to be a fighter pilot to have any sense at all. George Gleason was one of the leading aces. His name is on here. Vick: Were any of those gentlemen killed in action? Harris: I'm sure they were but I don't know. It may be the ones that I don't recognize. I don't know. Vick: How many names would you say are on there? [inaudible] Harris: Probably eleven or twelve. It's just something that turned up. Doesn't mean anything to anybody but me, but it touches my heart to see the occasion. Vick: When…how long…that dollar did… Harris: This one came from 1944. And that's when all these names were signed. Vick: When you were…did you have that with you when you were flying and you were… Harris: No, it was in the stuff that was sent back. This Bill Addenby [phonetic], I noticed his. The first time I've seen it. It was printed in ‘35. That's 18-, no 1935 [laughs]. Oh, here's an interesting hat that I like to wear sometimes, although if I chart [phonetic] hair properly I don't wear it. I don't comb it, I chart it, as she knows. I was…there's an organization in Atlanta for old POWs, I mean old veterans and I was really honored to be elected the commander of the Round Table in Atlanta, Georgia. And we still have a meeting every month and we have a real bond. But to be commander of a group like that was quite an honor. Vick: Yes, sir. Harris: I have this hat, as I say, and it just happened to show up. Did I tell you about the compass and all that? This is… Vick: Tell us about the spoon you got there. Harris: Oh, the same time when I made the…occasionally we'd get a bowl of slop and I carved this spoon out of a piece of wood with a piece of glass. Vick: Did you eat with this? Harris: When I could. Vick: Where did you get the piece of wood? Harris: Just off of the dang ground. I had no idea. But that is a personal keepsake that really touches me to have, too. It's like something…like the compass that I told you about. The story in the newspaper was concerning when I was before the firing squad in the newspaper. I saved it. Oh, did I…I told you about the picture there that came out of the German fighter? When we were standing around waiting to be…to be flown back to France, that's an interesting story. There was an ME-109 there, which is a German fighter. I took apart the…anyway, some way or another I got some gun film out of his gun and kept it with me until about four or five years ago and I had it rejuvenated through some kind of process. It was so crumbly and [inaudible] that you couldn't even touch the film. It was negative film out of a gun. Vick: Where did you…where did you get the film? Harris: Out of that gun, out of the…I mean out of the gun camera of the P-50…no, the 109 German fighter. Vick: And where was that plane when you got that? Harris: On the airfield where I was waiting in Landshut [phonetic] to be flown back to France. I took it out of the German airplane. I kept it all those years and had it rejuvenated or redone or whatever you call it and developed and it showed him shooting down a B-17. Isn't that amazing. That was gun film that I took out of a gun camera of a German fighter on the ground. Vick: Wow. Harris: Crazy. I'm glad it didn't show him shooting me down anyway. Vick: Do you remember…have you been to any more reunions since World War II? Harris: Oh, yes. Did I mention the fact that we found the third guy? Vick: No, sir. Oh, the third guy. You did, yes. Harris: Before the firing squad? Vick: Yes. Harris: Now I have talked to him. He's in bad shape and he's not expected to live. He lives in…out in the West. I've never met him personally. I mean, never talked…never been with him long but just met him. And anyway, but I am in touch with the other man all the time, as I told you earlier. Of all the bonds that I ever heard of or certainly ever experienced personally, that is the most…definitely the best bond I've ever experienced. Oh, I told you about the…I told you about Glenn Miller. Do you remember Robert Scott, the…one of the famous people I came in contact with was…he was with the…in Asia. Did I show you the pictures of my group? That's not it, but there is one here. That's it. I'd like for you to see that. That's taken in England during the winter of forty-four and my picture is in there. I'm on my knees down at the bottom in the middle of the lower level of people there. Yeah, that's it. Vick: Very nice. Harris: This is a bunch of memorabilia. You know, growing up in the Depression I never threw anything away and I saved all of this and it came back to me when that reunion happened. And it's just been a real touching thing. In fact, it helped me cleanse all these thoughts and stuff out of my heart and mind. Vick: Since World War II… Harris: Oh, here's another interesting…pardon me. Paul Tibbets, you remember that name? Paul Tibbets was a temporary patient for about ten minutes in my office because I had met him. He was the pilot of the Enola Gay. That airplane was in Atlanta and I went out to see him and began to talk and we became friends and I took him to the office. That's quite a name and quite an act that he participated in. That's really something. You know, we got…afterwards, we went out and started talking and telling and all that and I had the obvious…the usual question for him. “Colonel, did you ever have any re…?” He said, “Wait just a minute. Don't even ask me that question, Neal. I was given a job to do and I did it”. I'll never forget what he said to me…that answer. And I agreed with him. My spontaneous answer was, “I just wished you'd have gotten them all”. Vick: Sir, have you ever met a German after… Harris: Oh, yeah. I've had them as patients. I did properly anesthetize them, hoping that they wouldn't recover. Oh, I belong to the Combat Pilots Association. That's pretty much…oh, this story as I told you I think about the picture? Yeah. Vick: Tell us about your award, sir. Harris: There's no…nothing but what you see there. I have the air medal. I was not in combat that long as you could tell. These are aerial gunfire…I mean aerial awards for the pistol…this is aerial, I mean. This is for the pistol and for the small bore and for the machine gun. Unit citation. Good conduct. Air medal with a second air medal, bonus. And this is European so forth. Oh, the compass is the one in there that I told you about. Here it is. And these are various other decorations. But that's essentially it. Vick: Did you have any confirmed kills? Harris: On the ground. But not in the…I had one in the air, I thought. But I'm not sure. It was never confirmed. Vick: You want to tell us about the one in the ground? Harris: Strafing was the…was…after a mission, if we…on the way back, if we something on the ground, we would strafe it. And it was a very different or difficult thing for the P-51. First of all, we were the liquid-cooled engine which was very subject to bad hits by the land fire, ground fire. That was primarily was the mission of the P-47, which was the 9th Air Force, another division also in the 8th Air Force. Anyway, I strafed and we…I strafed… Vick: What was your target? Harris: I was gonna say I strafed a row of tanks and a row of trucks, apparently they were trucks. And I strafed an airfield, two or three airfields. Didn't have any claims because I was usually following somebody. And we left a lot of airfields toward the end of the war, just before I went down, we left a lot of airfields in bad shape, rubble. Vick: Right. Harris: And those six P-50…I mean six caliber…six fifty-caliber guns in the 51. By the way, they would slow us down, fifteen or twenty, thirty miles an hour when we fired. Anyway… Vick: Did you feel the vibration? Harris: Oh yeah. Brrrrrrrrr. Vick: How long would your ammunition last? Harris: I've forgotten how many we had but it wouldn't last more than a minute…a minute and a half total time. Vick: Out of curiosity… Harris: I think that's correct. Vick: When you would go on a mission and you were on your way back would you use all your ammunition or did you always save it? Harris: Sometimes we'd find a…on a…we would find somebody…obvious enemy on the ground we'd strafe. Or something that we would hit coming back over France on our way back to England. Vick: Would you be worried that you'd use all your ammunition and then fly back and then encounter an enemy? Harris: That was always a thought. But toward the end of the war [clears throat]. Pardon me. Toward the end of the war we didn't have that as much as they did earlier because the air force, the Luftwaffe was just about done. And our primary enemy was the ground force and we helped strafe a lot in that category. The other thing is ground fire is dangerous as it could be because a rifle could nick one little bitty coolant valve in your airplane and you would…you were done. So strafing was dangerous, but we did it. Vick: Tell me a little bit more about…it's really interesting to see…you talk about how it felt being in this P-51 and you said when you were getting strafed that you actually…the plane would slow down because of the… Harris: The percussion of the fire, yes. Vick: And was it an exhilarating feeling or was it…or were you still scared? Harris: I think that's a good question, but the answer varies. First of all, I used to say this that and the other. Then it came on me to say the real truth and say that I was only scared one time and that was when I got there and I stayed scared. And then the real truth again would be when I approached a firing back-at-me type of situation of ground troops or an airplane who I couldn't…couldn't contact, outmaneuver. Anybody who says they weren't scared is lying or crazy. I mean, I was scared, yeah. Vick: How do you handle that fear? Harris: You…you stay aggressive, attack and take the consequences. That's a good question and it came to my mind a long time after the war, but I realized, during the war I guess, the only was to handle it was if you don't like it, attack. If you're scared don't run, attack. Anybody…again, I'm gonna say it. Anybody who says they weren't scared is lying. Vick: Did you…I guess over a period of time too you felt some confidence maybe? Harris: Oh, I…well, now I won't say it was confidence. It's just that I was a good pilot. As far as the maneuverability and ability to handle my airplane, yes, I had complete confidence that I could handle it. Vick: Tell me a little bit… Harris: As long as I had an engine. Vick: We've got about two more minutes or so, but I want to know…tell me since the war's happened and over your years…you've told me about that you've done some reunions. You told me that…about how…an impact it has been in your life. Tell me, World War II, has it made you a better person? Has it made you… Harris: I will say this: That the reunion with that person has brought a lot of time and thoughts to my heart, where everybody really lives and I was able to purge a lot of thoughts in my mind that I had refused to answer and to address and to accept. You know, the word is acceptance. And I have the disease of alcoholism and I haven't had anything to drink in seventeen years, it is. And I get mad and I get ugly and I hit bad shots on the golf course, but I don't ever go cure it with a damn drink. So, to talk it out and to talk to either your sponsor or your buddy and to tell the truth and to get it out of your system is one of the best ways to purge your thoughts and to feel better. Vick: How has it affected your immediate family? Harris: They uh…the reunion has helped purge, as I said, I try to be a better person, first of all for me. And that means that they are going to be treated better. I'm the one who matters to me because I'm the only one who can do anything really about me, instead of looking for help. Vick: How long was it before you first shared a lot of your experiences with your [inaudible], your wife or your children? Harris: She's dead, but my children and I are very close, thank God, and we have…I have shared the experiences when I had this reunion with my POW buddy. It started me with that ability to get it out. Vick: Sir, it's been a pleasure and an honor. Harris: It's an honor to be here. Vick: And we appreciate your giving us your time and your experiences and your service, sir. And again, we really appreciate you sharing this information. Harris: What a nice, really, really nice group…this lady and you and the others that I've met. I'm serious. As I say again, at this stage I don't lie about things like that anymore. I can't remember them if I tell them, so I don't tell them. But what I'm saying is true and I appreciate being here. Vick: Thank you, sir. [end of tape]
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Extent:: 1:09:33
Original Collection:: Veterans History Project oral history recordings
Veterans History Project collection, MSS 1010, Kenan Research Center, Atlanta History Center
Holding Institution:: Atlanta History Center
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