Oral history interview of Thomas Hal Clarke

Collection:: Veterans History Project: Oral History Interviews
Title:: Oral history interview of Thomas Hal Clarke
Creator:: Tozzer, Newell Bryant
Clarke, Thomas Hal, Sr., 1914-
Date of Original:: 2004-11-16
Subject:: V-1 bomb
Submarines (Ships)--Germany
World War, 1939-1945--Campaigns--France--Normandy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Clarke, Mary Louise Hastings
McElreath, Walter, 1867-1951
Winship, North, 1885-1968
Leigh, Vivien, 1913-1967
Olivier, Laurence, 1907-1989
Moore, Alfred Preston, Sr., 1916-1990
Washington and Lee University
China National Aviation Corporation
Location:: China, Shanghai, 31.230416, 121.473701
Tunisia, Bizerte, 37.083333, 9.583333
United Kingdom, England, Falmouth, 50.1552197, -5.0688262
United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018
United States, Georgia, Atlanta Metropolitan Area, 33.8498, 84.4383
Medium:: video recordings (physical artifacts)
mini-dv
Type:: Moving Image
Format:: video/quicktime
Description:: In this interview, Thomas Clarke describes his experiences as a Naval officer during and after World War II. When Pearl Harbor was attacked, Clarke had been Vice-Consul in Toronto, Canada, and attended Officer Candidate School at Princeton University. He became a communications officer on an LST. From Boston, he sailed to Norfolk, Virginia, Bermuda, and Gibraltar, finally docking in Tunisia. After the fall of the Germans in North Africa, his LST continued to ferry supplies and men in Italy. They were then sent to England to prepare for the invasion of Europe. He describes his part in the invasion. His ship was one of the first in because they were carrying an underwater demolition team, landing them on both Omaha and Utah beaches. After the war in Europe was winding down, he was sent to Shanghai.
Thomas Hal Clarke, Sr. was a U.S. Navy officer during World War II.
THOMAS HAL CLARKE, SR. VETERANS HISTORY PROJECT ATLANTA HISTORY CENTER Interview Date: November 16, 2004 Interviewer: Newell Tozzer/Henry Howell Transcribed by: Stephanie McKinnell NEWELL TOZZER: This is Newell Bryan Tozzer at the Atlanta Historical Society. It's Tuesday afternoon, November 16, 2004, on the Veterans History Project, World War II Veteran's History Project, interviewing Thomas Hal Clarke, who was in the Navy during World War II. Mr. Clarke, you are a native of Atlanta, are you not THOMAS HAL CLARKE: Native of Atlanta, yes. NT: Not many of us are. TC: Not many of us left. NT: But you are. You were born here on what day? TC: I was born August 10, 1914, over 90 years ago. I have lived here all my life except college days, except Navy days and one tour of duty in Washington for the Federal Home Loan Bank Board. NT: I see, I see. Where were you born in Atlanta? TC: Where? NT: Uh huh. TC: I was born in Inman Park on a street called Waverly Way, as I say, over 90 years ago. I don't remember it because the family moved long before I reached, I think two years of age. NT: Well, Happy Birthday, I know it was recently. TC: Well, thank you very much. NT: I'm proud to see you again and be with you. What year did you graduate from Washington and Lee? TC: 1938 I graduated from W&L after having been there for enough time to do my AB degree and then later on LLB law degree. NT: So your law degree is from Washington and Lee. TC: I was asked by Washington and Lee, the LLB degree is now usually, a fellow likes to have a JD degree, and those of us who got a LLB degree way back were given the opportunity to change LLB degree to a JD degree, which I declined. So I'm still a LLB and proud of it. TC: Absolutely. NT: So you had all your degrees before World War II. TC: Yes. NT: Fortunately you have written down some of your memories for your children. And I have read them, and I am fascinated by them. So you had joined the law firm of McElreath & Scott before the war? TC: Yes, before the war, after getting out of law school. See, I got out in 1938, and I joined the law firm before I went into the Navy. Enjoyed being with some very fine lawyers, Walter McElreath, you've heard his name all over the place. NT: We're in his building, no, we're not. The building, McElreath Hall, is next door. TC: We're next door. I was there in his office as a young lawyer. He and I made an interesting trip together to Washington and Lee where he was being given some sort of honor. He had gone to W&L before the turn of the century. So he and I were given a trip to W&L in Virginia, and he was the honoree. It was a memorable trip. NT: I'm sure. HENRY HOWELL: Was he influential in your attending W&L? NT: No, he was not. Actually I hadn't known Mr., I knew his family, my parents knew him, but I didn't know him. NT: But you rejoined the law firm, of course. TC: Absolutely, when I got out. Then, of course, Mr. McElreath was quite old, and when he retired, why we had to form a new firm. Paul Anderson and I, a lawyer, Paul and I got together and we formed a little firm to begin with, and then it expanded and expanded and got to be a rather large firm for Atlanta. NT: I'm sure, that's wonderful. TC: But Mr. McElreath was our mentor, he's the one that sent us out on the right path. NT: For the Historical Society? TC: And for the law firm. NT: And for the law firm, too. HH: So having practiced the law, you then decided maybe the Foreign Service would be an interesting thing. TC: You're exactly right. I had always been interested in the Foreign Service and had known some Foreign Service officers in years gone by. So after getting back to Atlanta with my law degree, I said, well, why not try it out. So I then made the decision to go into the Foreign Service, which was in those days, rather elaborate because you had to take the exam. Of course, you do now too, but it was only given twice a year. And tough, tough, tough exam; it was rough. Finally took it, and very fortunate in Washington where I had to take it, ran into a state department fellow, North Winship, does that ring a bell at all? NT: Winship name is very familiar, yes. TC: From Macon, Georgia. And he got hold of me and he said look here, I'm going in as consul general to Toronto. You've just taken the law exam, the Foreign Service exam, come up and why don't you start your career with me? I said, sounds good to me. So went to Toronto and he became consul general. While I was not, I had not really passed the exams completely at that point, he said, oh, it doesn't make any difference, I'll give you the duties. So I served as sort of a vice consul up there with him. Then the war broke out. NT: That was when Pearl Harbor . . . . TC: Pearl Harbor. NT: When you were in Toronto serving with Mr. Winship as consul. TC: That is correct. HH: Did you have any premonition or any hints coming through the Foreign Service that things may be heating up? TC: Yes, we did. And I was told of course, being in the Foreign Service, you don't have to get into the armed services because you're automatically excluded from the draft if you're already in the Foreign Service. And many of my friends stayed there. But most of my friends were getting into the Army or Navy. I felt like I ought to get in. And Mr. Winship, the consul general, went along with me. He said, well, if you're determined to do it, I think we can get you a commission right off the bat. So he got me a commission as an ensign, which was very fortunate for me. NT: That was helpful. So you were sworn into the Navy? TC: Sworn into the Navy. NT: And went to officers training school at Princeton. TC: Princeton. Which, I loved Princeton anyways. NT: So does Henry. HH: I went to Yale. NT: Oh, I thought it was Princeton, excuse me. TC: Actually, I went to Princeton—I didn't matriculate—before I went to Washington and Lee. But anyways, to get back on this, I was sent to Princeton to naval school there, and we stayed there for three months learning all about the Navy and Navy language and what you're supposed to do when you're aboard ship. Enjoyed it greatly. HH: How did they blend in all you somewhat older, more mature people with the college classes that were still there, with undergraduates? TC: That's a good question. I think Princeton really closed down much of the university so as to open up certain dormitories for us. We stayed in the regular students' dormitories there. I remember, too, it was, there was some time when no students were there. We had the run of the campus for the most part. But we didn't get in each other's way too much. It was an interesting time for a real civilian such as I was to learn a bout the armed forces and the Navy in particular. NT: Was it a tough course? TC: Tough course. And even though all of us were officers in there, I was an ensign, the lowest number. We had some full commanders in there which were several ranks above. They were going through this initial getting you familiar with the Navy, what all the terms meant, the discipline`. All the time we were there, we had to march. All of the higher ranking officers had to march with us from class to class. It was to get us used to being under orders really. We enjoyed it though, got to know a lot of good people. Still know them, the ones that are left. NT: You were back in school. Then after three months you graduated from officers training. Where did you go from there? Norfolk? TC: We went from there straight to Norfolk into a training situation down there, in which we were put on these various ships so as to learn, really, how to handle them. We had done it up at Princeton but not aboard ship. We would ply up and down the Chesapeake Bay on these naval ships learning the ropes. I was assigned to be communications so I was the communications officer. We had about 11 sailors underneath us who would do the flags and the semaphore and the radio business. It was quite an education for somebody that really had no background in communications, learning Morse code, learning the flags, you know the alphabets. But it all went well. HH: At that point, did you know you were going to be on an LST or was that undifferentiated in training? TC: Yeah, it was, I did not know I was going to be on an LST. But very soon after I was assigned to an LST as communications officer. NT: LST is landing ship tank? TC: Landing ship tank. It's a very awkward sort of ship, about 320 feet long. It has two decks where you put tanks and lorries, trucks, on either the top deck or the lower deck. There's a huge elevator in between to get them up and down. Have you ever been on one? HH: No. TC: Well, it's an interesting ship. Only problem with an LST, it only drew about 13 feet of water when it was fully loaded. Going across the ocean on something like that, you ride sort on the top of the waves. But you get used to it. NT: Wasn't very comfortable. TC: Wasn't very comfortable. Quarters for officers on an LST though were very, very good, much better than a destroyer. Much better than a destroyer. HH: How many officers would there have been? TC: I think there were, our complement was 8 officers and about 150 men I think. Yeah, somewhere along there. We had a skipper and all of the supply officer, gunnery officer, communications officer, several other officers. HH: Executive officer. TC: Executive officer. And a very fine bunch of men they were when we finally got assigned to our ship, which we had to commission ourselves. We had to fly from Norfolk up to Boston where it was being built and commissioned. We all got aboard there and went down in our new capacities and maneuvered it down to Norfolk on our own. I think I mentioned in my story, we did put off in New York, and the Navy lost us. At least three weeks, at least. So we tied up in Staten Island, New York. And we had a ball for three weeks in New York City. We would go over, what was the name of the hotel in New York where all the debutantes were giving parties for officers. Not the Waldorf. Well, anyway, it was one of those big ones. We had a ball for three weeks. NT: You just were entertained. Then they found you. TC: They found us, yes. So we got immediately shipped to Norfolk. HH: This crew, you and all the other plank owners, did you stay together pretty much the whole career of the LST? TC: No, the group that we started out with, say, back in Princeton. But the group that we finally did learn how to act aboard ship, yeah, we stayed together pretty much all the way. HH: So you got to be pretty good friends. TC: Very good friends. Knew each other pretty well. NT: Together for a long while and under stressful conditions. TC: Stressful conditions, yeah. NT: You used a term that as a novice, I don't know, I can imagine, but I want you to explain. “Keeping our ship in proper station.” TC: Yes. I don't remember, of course, but there must have been 60 ships in our station when we were going across the water. NT: In the convoy? TC: In the convoy. And you had to keep so many feet back of the one in front of you and so many feet from the ship that was alongside you in another column. These old LSTs could be washed about with very shallow draft, and it was very, very difficult keeping your proper station. HH: It must have taken a very long time zigzagging across. TC: Zigzagging. And many of them would break down. Then you would have to, if the one in front of you became incapacitated, you had to maneuver around him, and he would get left way behind. There were destroyers and smaller ships sent by the Navy to take care of these smaller ones that did break down. But they would finally get fixed up, and the convoy was moving so slowly that they would have time to catch up to it. NT: You went in this convoy from Bermuda to Gibraltar. TC: We did indeed. We went from Norfolk to Bermuda. Had a bad thing happen in Bermuda. We stayed in there several days, and they were giving us liberty, the ship's company. So we let down one of our small boats, we had about 8 small boats called Davits, and you let it down to the water. The sailors would go to there, to Bermuda, and let themselves go for a while. But on the way back a storm came up and swamped them and we lost those sailors. At least seven or eight of them. That was a shock, yeah. Then we went on to Gibraltar. NT: Which probably took several weeks. TC: Yeah, at least. I would say from Bermuda to, about 10 days, rough. And remember, submarines were very active mid-ocean, we would see the destroyer escorts along the side dropping their mines to blow up submarines. Many of them would hit submarines, and you'd see debris coming up, and you'd pass along in your ship. NT: You were indoctrinated early to war. TC: We were indoctrinated early, yeah. Hadn't thought about those things in a long time. NT: But then when you got to Gibraltar, you said that the enemy had invaded the harbor there. TC: Yes, we thought we were safe getting into the harbor in Gibraltar. It turned out that some German small craft had crept in unnoticed. They would affix what were known as limpet mines, I don't know if you've ever heard of them. They're not huge mines at all, but they would just stick them on the propellers of the ship that were anchored in there. They had underwater arrangements. Then when the ship's wheels would turn, it would blow the whole end of the ship up. They would have to go in dry dock and be repaired. It did not happen to our ship, but it happened to two of them that were there. Of course, the Germans who did that, they were in their small boat that had gone on out into the Mediterranean and were never seen again. HH: Brave men. TC: Brave men. NT: Then after Gibraltar, you headed towards Africa and Tunisia. TC: We did indeed.We headed east, mostly along the northern coast of Africa. NT: Were you in a convoy still? TC: We were still in a convoy with escorts because the Germans were very, very active there in the Mediterranean at that time, particularly from the air. HH: Flying by then mainly out of Italy I guess? TC: Out of Italy. HH: They lost North Africa by then. TC: Africa was still being fought over. We hadn't completely secured it. HH: This was 1942 I guess, late '42? TC: Right, late '42, '43 beginning. But it was very active. Lake Biserte is a large lake just at Biserte the town. It's in Tunisia. But Lake Biserte is a huge lake. The Navy had taken it over completely by that time. All of the convoy that was left, that left America, I suppose about half of it was still as a convoy. We all went into Lake Biserte because it was relatively protected from submarines, things like that. But we were very vulnerable from the air. And many, many, many air raids took place there. I think I mentioned watching the dog fights up in the air was a fascinating thing for us who were aboard ship. The Germans would come over, you know, dropping bombs. And all of our anti-aircraft guns aboard ship as well as on the land we had secured around it, all firing at these German planes. Every now and then they'd get one and it would make a glow in the sky and you'd see it coming on down and finally splash in the water. HH: That was also where you picked up the Jeep, the German Jeep? TC: We picked up, I didn't pick it up in Biserte. After having made one trip over to Europe, we went back to Libya. That's where, Tripoli, that's where we picked up the Jeep. I think I told you the story, having a drink in a bar there and the officer sitting alongside said that he was catching a ship and they were leaving, did we want a German Jeep that they had liberated. So he threw out the keys right there on the bar. And I said hell, we'll take it. We'll take it. We had room for it. So I went to the skipper, our skipper, and I said look here, we've got this German Jeep, can we bring it aboard. And he said yes. We had a boom on board the ship. So we picked it up, put it on board ship and we used that Jeep for a long, long time. German Jeep. HH: Probably the same thing they imported over here after the war, a little Volkswagen. TC: Yes. The rest of that story is that we finally took it to England with us. The commanding officer of the base where we landed saw it, liked it so much, he commandeered it. That was the last we ever heard of it. NT: Stole it. HH: It was your Jeep. TC: It was our Jeep. NT: Life is so interesting. You said that your captain became a little too familiar with some army nurses. That's a funny story. TC: Well, in Biserte, there were a lot of very attractive American nurses that were around. For evening's entertainment and so forth, we'd give a dinner aboard ship. See we were there months. And they would come and we'd have a wonderful time. Well, I think our skipper got a little too friendly and it just so happened that the commanding officer of the whole fleet came aboard at this very unfortunate time. He was relieved from his command. NT: Poor skipper. HH: So you lost the leader. TC: We lost the leader, but we got another one in his place who was very, very good, very experienced. NT: Life is interesting. TC: Life is interesting. NT: You said you were nearly hit when you were invading Sicily. That was . . . TC: I was personally nearly hit. We had discharged our materiel and men on the Sicilian shore and put down the bow doors so all of the tanks, troops could get off. And the Germans came over and raided us. And it just happened that they missed our ship. I was on duty, and I remember seeing all of the hit, I should say within 25 feet of where I was standing. But I was not injured at all. But it did a lot of damage. Some of our sailors were injured and had to go to the hospital. But we survived. NT: That was the beginning of the invasion of Italy, at Sicily. TC: Yes. We started in Sicily, which is the island you know. Then from Sicily, after they secured that, took some little time, then we began invading Italy itself. NT: I was interested in your returning prisoners of war. TC: Interesting indeed it was. Two types of prisoners we had, the Italians and the Germans. The Italians just loved us. They would get on board and be laughing and enjoying life to the fullest to be so liberated and away from the Germans. But the Germans, the few Germans that we did have, they were very, oh they wouldn't talk, they wouldn't smile. They would give you their rank and name as required by the international rules. But they were not living it up at all like the Italians, who were glad to be captured really. NT: The Italians. TC: Not the Germans. NT: So you would convoy the tanks and equipment to Italy. TC: To Italy and then unload and then bring back prisoners. NT: To Biserte? TC: To Biserte where they would be put in camps in North Africa. HH: Did they come with a contingent of guard troops or was it up to your crew to guard them? TC: No, they would have their own guards. But our crew were alerted to what was going on, and they were, but they had their own guards. HH: That would have been how long a trip as you make the voyage back and forth? TC: Across the Mediterranean, yeah. I would say at least, well, overnight. I don't think you can do it in one full day because those LSTs were not fast ships. HH: And so prisoners would just sleep on deck, I guess. TC: Sleep on deck. And they had to be fed. HH: Kitchen. TC: They were on there as I say probably overnight. NT: The guards would be Americans? TC: Americans. HH: Did you also ferry wounded people back and forth? TC: We did indeed. Not the desperately wounded but ones who were out of service. We would bring them back to the hospitals in North Africa. HH: Did you talk to them much? TC: We didn't get much chance to talk to the prisoners that were on board. I don't think I ever talked to any of them. NT: The wounded? TC: We did talk to them, yeah. HH: They were having a hard time. TC: They were having a tough time. You see, it could be very rough there on the Mediterranean and they would be seasick and all of that sort of business. They were ill to begin with having been shot at, wounded. But we did much of that. We kept doing that for maybe six weeks as the troops who had landed would secure first Sicily, then into Italy and move up Italy. NT: Up the boot. TC: Up the boot. And as you recall, much of that going on the boot was very, very slow. HH: It was, right to the end of the war. TC: It surely was. NT: So for six weeks, your LST… TC: We went back and forth. And one of those occasions was when we went to Tripoli to pick up, and that's where we picked up our Jeep. NT: That you got liberated from! HH: Then it was off to England. TC: Off to England. HH: And did you know that was part of the invasion? Pretty general knowledge that that's why you were going up there? TC: Oh, yeah, yes. NT: People knew that D-Day in England, D-Day in Europe was coming. TC: And we were taking a very active part in the invasion up there and we knew it. But I tell you, the trip from the Mediterranean up to England was really, that's when we had the worst attacks by the Germans from the air. And they had these, what they call buzz bombs, I mentioned in that paper, where they were pilotless ships carried on the belly of a big plane. They had very, very accurate sights down to the target, which was one of our ships. The big plane would loose him right at the proper time, and it would zero in, you could see it zeroing in, going round and round and round until it hit its target. And it was magnetic, so it didn't miss. We saw, I guess, five or six of those ships get hit. But we made it. We were very fortunate. NT: I heard about the buzz bombs but I never really understood about them. TC: They were devastating because they were very accurate. Once they found their target and they set the, whatever they did, it would go to the target and then it would just blow up. Then you see, the escort vessels would have to stick around a little while to pick up all the survivors, as many as they could. HH: So you finally made it. TC: We finally made it to England. HH: At Falmouth? TC: Falmouth, which we loved. HH: And when did you get up there, about? NT: We're about 19—, well, D-Day was '44. TC: Yeah. NT: So are we early '44 or are we late '43. TC: We had finished all we were going to do down in Africa, so they sent us up there in preparation for the, to get ready for the invasion of northern Europe. That's what we were doing. And we went into Falmouth, and we anchored there for some town, up the river Fal, beautiful little village where we were made welcome by the nice British people there, particularly the pub people. Then we moved from Falmouth on up to various ports along the English seaport. HH: Was it at Falmouth where you were asked to lend the Jeep the day Vivian Leigh—? TC: No, I think it was after we had gotten to Plymouth that we lost our Jeep to the commanding officer of the base. HH: But somewhere along the line a pubkeeper asked you to take Vivian Leigh. NT: This innkeeper, you said. TC: That's right. Asked us to take Vivian Leigh and Lawrence Olivier, who were vacationing in wartime in the Ferryboat Inn, which is a delight. I think the little inn is still there, but it's very secluded, near Falmouth. So we were asked because we had the Jeep to pick them up, which we did, picked them up and took them to the inn. That was the last we saw of them. We were duly thanked both by them and by the hotel manager. NT: Being from Atlanta, that was fabulous. TC: It was a fabulous thing, yes. HH: Hope she told you how much she liked Atlanta. TC: Yes. We didn't have too much chance for . . . NT: Chit chat? TC: Chit chat. But we were all excited. NT: Fabulous. Did you have any trouble getting gasoline for the Jeep when you had the Jeep? TC: No, we had gasoline, petrol, running out of our ears. There was no scarcity at all. HH: Would the LST have carried a supply for the vessels, for the vehicles that it carried? TC: It would indeed. I'm sure you remember seeing them, 5 can. HH: Jerry can. TC: All over the place. And then putting into ports as we did, every port, all we had to do was just make requisition for petrol that they had there, and we would get plenty. There was never a need for a supply that we didn't have. NT: Was not rationed to you. And you were made lieutenant jg [junior grade]? TC: There in Falmouth. Yeah. Well, it was just after we got to Falmouth. There I was made lieutenant jg and had to go take the oath. Felt very grand with another half stripe. NT: Did your duties remain the same? TC: Remained the same. NT: You're still communications officer? TC: Still communications officer. HH: Did you, in that capacity, pick up a lot of pre-invasion chatter? Could you tell things were really ramping up? TC: Yes, yes you could indeed. And, of course, there was much speculation. Even when we first got there, there was still speculation of the sort that the Germans might try to invade England again. I mean that was not completely out of the picture. So there was a lot of, we were trained to be alert to see anything that might be suspicious. But it didn't happen. But there were some bad experiences we had up there where the Germans would slip over in those same little small boats and they would plant bombs underneath these ships that were getting, practicing maneuvers on the English beach. HH: There was that one terrible disaster where a bunch of U boats sank three LSTs I think, and an enormous number of men killed. TC: Never saw them again. We weren't part of that group. We were not. But there were at least three or four LSTs I believe that were taking part in it that they got. The loss of life was terrific because it was on the British channel. Hadn't thought about that in a long time. NT: So now we've, we have the buildup to June 6, 1944. D-day. And you were part of the invasion force. TC: We were, along with, I would estimate, hundreds of ships. NT: Largest armada. TC: And we all had a station that we had to move in and maintain. But the bad part about the invasion was, you know, we were supposed to have invaded on the 5th of June, and we all got ready. Each ship had its full contingent of people, Jeeps, guns, people, ready to go, and the whole thing was called off. HH: Had you actually sailed? TC: We had actually sailed out of the harbor but before we got, what, two hours out, we were all called back. So we all went back with all the troops and men aboard and stayed there overnight in the harbor. Then the next day we were told to go. That was June 6. You remember the people who do the weather had told hierarchy that they thought it was going to be well enough for us to go ahead. It was rough, terribly rough. But we made it. HH: Your LST was one of the very first, I gather, since it was carrying some underwater demolition engineers. TC: We were. We were even ahead of H-hour. H-hour was the hour you were supposed to, the day and the hour. But we were less than H-hour because we were carrying, I think, maybe 190 underwater men with stuff strapped to their back, explosives and things of that nature. They would, after we had gotten about, what, 500 yards from the beach, they would get off the ship over the side. HH: Just over the side? TC: Over the side. And swim underwater. They had, what, fins. And their duty was to blow up the stuff that, on the beach, that the Germans had put there, which were railroad ties. They did a good job. But out of the total number that we let off our ship, some very small percentage came back. But they did a good job. They would blow up these things, you know, that would keep these small boats from coming in up on the shore and discharging all the men. HH: Did you get fired on at that point, or had the Germans really discovered you? TC: We did get fired on at that point, both from the beach and way up on the hill. You could see the shots coming in. But there were a few German planes left at that time, very few, but there were some. And we would get air raids. It was, thinking about it again—but I haven't thought about these things in a long time. NT: The 60th anniversary. HH: Run on up to the beach to discharge. TC: We ran up to the beach finally, later on. That was maybe, that was H-hour on, I suppose, we didn't get into the beach until about afternoon sometime when we discharged the men. And it was touching. We didn't know whether they were going to, whether we were going to be having to take these people back. And many of them never came back as you know. But finally, after we discharged, we put up the ramp door, closed the door, and propelled ourselves back by the stern anchor on our ship which was let out as you went in, and you pulled yourself back out. Then we rendezvoused in the middle of the sea there, to wait for a full convoy to go back to England. Then we would all proceed back to England, to the port, and pick up more people, come back. We did the next day. HH: What was it like seeing that enormous theater basically? TC: It was really beyond your imagination really to see, just as far as you could see, ships, ships, ships. And a lot of firing. The battlewagons, the big battleships were way out. Way out, maybe thousands of yards out, lobbing shells over onto the beach. It was an exciting time. NT: And you were at both Omaha and Utah beach? TC: Omaha and Utah, we were. Not at the same time. But we would make many trips back and forth. HH: This went on for a month or so? TC: Let's see. Yes, we must have gone back and forth I would say . . . TAPE 1 SIDE B Six times. Then things were beginning to be pretty well in hand and we were told to proceed immediately to Scotland to turn over our ships to the British. That's when they learned that I was a lawyer. NT: Oh, they didn't know it until then. TC: No, I didn't say anything either. So we turned over our ship, when we left the beaches there and the war was going pretty well at that point, so we went up to Scotland, turned over our ship to the British. We were put abroad a very nice, beautiful ship, I forget the name of it, and sent back to the states. And that's where I was told when I got back that I was to be given an assignment for a lawyer. NT: Not a communications officer. TC: So we did get back safely, back to America. Sent immediately to Florida, had a nice time there. NT: Your mother and sister came to see you. TC: While I was stationed there, they came down to visit me. Ultimately, I went to Atlanta. I broke this arm. I was in uniform [?], just shattered this arm. Finally the judge advocate general's office said, look here, it's time for you to move on. So I went to Washington, took a few courses there. Then we were flown to, went to Shanghai. HH: It was interesting to me that you made the choice between London and Shanghai. TC: I had been to London, you see. I'd never been out to the far East. I was not married then. I thought it would be interesting. NT: This is about '45? TC: Yes, beginning of ‘45. HH: We had already liberated Shanghai before the war was over. TC: We had liberated Shanghai, but the fighting was still going on. HH: But Shanghai…? TC: Shanghai as liberated and we were trying to get it back in shape. My problem when we got to Shanghai, the skipper or admiral of the base told me that we had to do something because all the ships that were coming in there had been at sea for nine months or more. The sailors when they'd get liberty would go completely wild. And I think I mentioned that the sailors would get so full of whiskey, literally, that they would get all the rickshaw drivers in the rickshaw, and they would pull the rickshaw all over Shanghai, up on the sidewalks. The admiral came to us one day and said, we've got, you fellows have got to do something about it. So we had to court-martial a lot of them, some officers. And many of them did it just to get over the experience, just to get back on land. And I felt sorry for those sailors. Been at sea for nine months. I'm sure it wasn't very good booze, but they would drink it. The local Chinese people were ready and willing to sell as much as they would want. But we finally got it in good shape. HH: So how long were you over there? When did you come back to the states? TC: Well, I, as I say, being single . . . I was building up my points, and I had enough points to get back. HH: So that would have been early '46 sometime? TC: Early '46. NT: But you say that was a plush assignment that you, that you lived in the [Castlegate?] hotel and . . . TC: It was really plush, the hotel was the best in town, right on the bluff. And we had house boys to do your shoes, brush your clothes, wash your shirts and everything. HH: Just like home. TC: Just like home, it was better than home. The food was good, you could eat at the hotel. And as I said, I was assigned a Jeep there, so we could get around. NT: And you had a friend there? TC: I did have a friend. In Washington he was vice consulate. And he and his wife had been assigned to Korea as vice consul. But he was flying into Shanghai and he let me know so I met them with my Jeep at the Shanghai airport. And after I had taken them back after a delightful visit, I was on my way back to town and came by this creek. And in my Jeep ran over this little Chinese boy . . . This was on the creek where these people lived. [unclear] I had to take him to the naval hospital which I did. They fixed him up nicely. Turned out he wasn't furt too badly. That's one thing that is deeply engraved in my memory. NT: But it was your friend Preston Moore . . . TC: Pres Moore was from Virginia. He and I went to Washington and Lee together in my younger days. He had gotten into the Marine Corps and had been discharged out there in China where he was flying. And, in those days, the Chinese airways were employing American aviators at a fabulous salary. So Preston stayed there in Shanghai flying for China Airways, and we ran into each other. He had this fabulous apartment there. NT: You went horseback riding. TC: Horseback riding. We had dates. Interesting Russian women, beautiful, fine girls were there that had fled Russia. A lot of fun.. NT: Interesting experience. TC: Yep. Preston finally came back and I left, so the next time I saw Preston he was in Virginia, had taken over the management of a boys school in Virginia Woodberry Forest. HH: He became headmaster? TC: No, he was head of business. Had a beautiful house there. NT: Beautiful place. When you came back from Shanghai, you had to stand watch on the ship; you weren't just a passenger. You had duties. TC: Had duties and stood the watch. There were a lot of naval officers aboard who knew what they were doing. By that time I knew pretty well what to do when you're running the ship. Late one night we ran into something. Going along beautifully then all of the sudden—it was a huge ship—just, the ship shuddered and stopped. I was the officer in charge. Anyhow, we hit something, we never knew what it was, no idea. So far as I know, it is unknown even until this day. We hit something because it stopped that huge ship, but never knew [what]. Finally came on into California, where we filled out all the papers for discharge. Finally caught the train all the way from San Francisco to Jacksonville, Florida, by train. It was plush. NT: You were an officer. TC: Officer. So, discharged in Jacksonville. HH: When was that? TC: When? Early ‘46. HH: So you'd been in four solid years. NT: '42 to '46. . . . . Back to China for a minute. One thing that was very interesting to me was you said you ran into the Agrarian Reformers and therefore couldn't get— TC: That's right. The Congress in those days was called the Agrarian Reformers. They had set up roadblocks. We had gone by Jeep fairly far inland. And on our way home we ran into the roadblocks, and we were told in no uncertain terms if you see a roadblock of the Agrarian Reformers, don't go beyond that. We turned around and went back to the ship. NT: You don't want to get mixed up with them. TC: But it was an interesting assignment. NT: Fascinating. TC: Fascinating. I look back on it with great pleasure. You forget the terrible part, where you see bombs coming down and people getting killed. NT: That's good. Thank you very much. It certainly is fascinating for us. TC: [Hope the tapes will be interesting to others some day.] NT: Fascinating. It's a privilege to hear them. Thank you very much. We must get this on video [refers to picture]. HH: And that's in Shanghai, at which point you were a jg [lieutenant junior grade], a legal officer. TC: And then I made full lieutenant out there, but that was before. Real interesting experience. NT: Very interesting naval career. TC: Yes, it was, but as time goes on, you forget the details. That's the reason my children asked me two or three years ago, please try to reduce it to writing. HH: Thank you for paying attention to your children. NT: . . . When were you and Mary Louise married? TC: We were married in—we began going together in 1950 and were married in ‘51. HH: And you met her how? TC: At a party in Forsyth County. Did you ever hear of, what's that nice family down in Forsyth? NT: Newtons? TC: Newtons. NT: I knew the Newtons. TC: She gave a party. And it was at that party that Mary Louise and I really met each other. Although I knew the Hastings, but didn't know Mary Louise.We got together and it didn't take us long, as they say. Mrs. Hastings was terribly upset because I wanted to go ahead and get married, and she wanted it, what, six or nine months away. I said Mary Louise, I've got a little age on me now, let's go. HH: So how quickly did you get married? TC: We were only engaged about three or four months. Mrs. Hastings would not do it in any less time than that. NT: I was telling Henry that I went down to the Hastings home many times when I was younger. I ran around with Ted Forbes, who was a friend of Dottie's. HH: Wasn't your father a very good friend of theirs? NT: Yes, Daddy was. TC: That's right. NT: So we would go down there to parties. TC: You saw her gardens. She really did it up brown, the wedding, the reception was there. We got married at a church in Griffin. But she had that garden all fixed up, I tell you. . . . . You know, that house is completely gone. NT: No, I did not know. TC: Absolutely, it's not there anymore. It was sold, and it stood vacant for a while . . . HH: Let me take a picture of the two of you if I could, a photograph. [interview ends]
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Extent:: 1:02:32
Original Collection:: Veterans History Project oral history recordings
Veterans History Project collection, MSS 1010, Kenan Research Center, Atlanta History Center
Holding Institution:: Atlanta History Center
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