Oral history interview of Jacqueline Thiesen Kennedy

Collection:: Veterans History Project: Oral History Interviews
Title:: Oral history interview of Jacqueline Thiesen Kennedy
Creator:: Lacy, Margaret
Kennedy, Jacqueline Thiesen, 1923-2014
Date of Original:: 2004-06-16
Subject:: World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Georgia
Reynolds, Herbert Lindley, 1918-1984
Kennedy, George Wallace, 1921-2005
Sawyer, Annie
Mitchell, Margaret, 1900-1949
Leahy, Louise, 1928-2011
Marshall, Peter, 1902-1949
Truman, Margaret, 1924-2008
Marshall, Muffy
McRae, Fannie Forrest Collier, 1864-1942
Haverty, May, 1884-1967
Gunston Hall School (Washington, D.C.)
American Red Cross
St. Margaret's Church (Washington, D.C.)
Location:: United States, District of Columbia, Washington, 38.89511, -77.03637
United States, Georgia, 32.75042, -83.50018
United States, Georgia, Atlanta Metropolitan Area, 33.8498, 84.4383
Medium:: video recordings (physical artifacts)
mini-dv
Type:: Moving Image
Format:: video/quicktime
Description:: In this interview, Jacqueline Kennedy talks about her life as a civilian in Atlanta and Washington, D.C. during World War II. She also discusses the military service of her two husbands. She relates her family's history, including her birth at Crawford Long, attended by the first female obstetrician in Atlanta. She attended a boarding school in Washington, D.C. because her mother and sisters had gone there. She recalls that she had been to church on the day of the attack on Pearl Harbor and remembers the announcement made by President Roosevelt. She describes walking past the Japanese embassy, seeing a bonfire and thought it was odd that they were burning leaves; she later learned they were burning documents. She and her fellow students were encouraged to learn new skills such as home nursing, rolling bandages and using a switchboard. They were also urged to buy war bonds. She also describes having picked cotton and that it was backbreaking work. She recalls rationing, including how butter was essentially lard that came with a yellow coloring, as well as darning silk stockings to make them last. She describes writing a letter to a soldier; her letter was returned because he had died, but his parents had not yet been notified. She recalls that Margaret Mitchell invited enlisted men into her home for Sunday dinners during the war. Mrs. Kennedy also tells of having tea with Margaret Truman, and tells the story of moving Margaret's piano into the White House; a leg of the piano went through the floor of the White House, which prompted major renovations to the building.
Jacqueline Kennedy was a civilian living in Atlanta during World War II.
MARGARET LACY: I'm Margaret Lacy and this is the Atlanta History Center, and it's June 16th, and we're so lucky to have Jacqueline Thiesen Kennedy with us, who is going to discuss whatever it is that she wants to discuss. And we're going to start back in her growing up years perhaps. Where would you like to begin? Thank you for coming. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Thank you, I'm Jacqueline Thiesen Kennedy. And I was born July 3rd, 1923 in Atlanta Georgia at old—it was called Davis Fischer, it's now Crawford Long. I was one of four children; my mother and father are lifelong Atlantans. My mother particularly, my father was from Pensacola, Florida. He came up here to go to Georgia Tech and never went back to live anywhere else. Growing up in Atlanta I was like everybody else. I went to Spring Street School, and then to E. Rivers School and then to North Fulton. And they were wonderful, happy years. We all had such a good time. It was so carefree and fun. And when we went downtown we dressed up, put on hats, gloves, stockings, and acted like ladies. And downtown was so small, we would go to Rich's or Davison's. We would start on the top floor and go all the way down, and look at everything, and know almost everybody in the store. And we rode the street car, and that was great fun. And then it was time to go away to college, and I went to Dunstan Hall Junior College in Washington, D.C. And that was where I was when Roosevelt made the announcement that we were at war. We'd just been, a group of us had just been to St. Margaret's Episcopal Church that Sunday, and we walked home. And we went by some of the embassies, and we saw a bonfire and we all commented and we said, “I wonder why the Japanese are burning leaves?” It was December. And we thought, of course, that was what they were doing, was burning leaves, and they were really burning the documents, we found out later. And then it was, after we got back to school and about time to have lunch, I guess it was, and we heard the announcement that we were at war. Well, that was very dramatic because a great of many of the girls at Dunstan Hall were Army and Navy juniors. And of course they were terribly distraught, and it was during the next month we would hear things at night, and my roommate and I got up one night to peak out in the hall to see what the commotion was, and it was some of the Army and Navy girls leaving to go and tell their fathers good-bye. And I was there with Murphy [?] Marshall, whose uncle was General Marshall, and Lewis Leahy, whose grandfather was Admiral Leahy, and quite a number of others. And we often met those people, because at Dunstan they invited the important people in Washington to school every Sunday afternoon so we would have an opportunity to meet a great many people in the government. My roommate and I took great advantage of being in Washington. We went to every concert. I think anything to get out of going to school. We enjoyed it. MARGARET LACY: Well, that's what it's for, to see all of them. How did you come to choose that school? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: My mother went to Dunstan Hall and both of my older sisters did, too. It never occurred to me to go any place else. MARGARET LACY: How long were you there? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It's a junior college, so I was only there two years. So, I graduated the following June after Pearl Harbor. Margaret Truman was at school with me. It was a high school as well as a junior college, and she was a senior in high school my second year in college, and we became friends. She was a very, very nice girl, a plain old shoe. And the Trumans came to the school many, many Sunday afternoons. So, we had an opportunity to meet them. And somebody else that I loved being with in Washington was Peter Marshall, who had been in Atlanta and [I] went to his church several times, just because he was so wonderful. MARGARET LACY: Yes. Agnes Scott girls used to go down, that's where he met his wife also. I remember reading about that. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I loved the book she wrote, “A Man Called Peter.” Then, of course, well . . . while we were at the school, after Pearl Harbor, we were encouraged, all the senior girls particularly, to take the Red Cross Home Nursing Course, which we did, because they thought it might be necessary for us to be able to do that. So we did. My roommate reminded me—I had lunch with her yesterday, and she said, “We also had to learn to use the switchboard back then.” I don't know why we had to do that, but we did. When we got home, of course, everything was in turmoil, and we started rolling bandages and knitting. I'm afraid that some poor soldier had a very strange scarf from me, but at least I hope it kept him warm. And we sold war bonds, and we had something called the “Girls' Battalion.” And it was—we met, I think it was once a week, at the Georgian Terrace for a Tea Dance, and we met all the young soldiers and sailors, officers I think they were. And it was great fun. We met some awfully nice young men. MARGARET LACY: Atlanta was a point of disembarkation where they directed wherever they were going from Atlanta , wasn't it? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I'm not sure about that. MARGARET LACY: Down on Ponce de Leon? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yes, I do too remember that. But that was great fun. And when I was doing the Red Cross bandaging, there was a house on West Peachtree. It was a stone house and I think it eventually was the SAE House for Tech. But during the war that was where we rolled bandages, and Mrs. Floyd McRae, Sr., and Mrs. John Marsh, who was Margaret Mitchell, were the two ladies who were in charge of our Red Cross work, and we were very diligent. I don't know why they called it “rolling them.” I don't think [it was] rolling bandages; we made a lot of flat ones. MARGARET LACY: You folded them? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: What we said, we had to go and roll bandages. I remember I had one pair of silk stockings left, and that was devastating. I darned those stockings a thousand times. MARGARET LACY: Well, there was so much rationed, also; I don't guess silk stockings were even on the list at all, were they, because they didn't exist very much? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, things were rationed like canned goods particularly and, of course, gasoline, and I remember the butter was just awful. It looked like lard. MARGARET LACY: It was lard. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: And it had little packages of orangey looking stuff to color it. And I remember my mother and I used to go out to the farmers' market and we would buy butter beans and shell them, and they had a canning place at the farmers' market. And we would all go over to can our vegetables, or whatever we had prepared. But I remember also that our mother had ours stored in the basement because it was cooler. But I can remember those cans popping open many times, they exploded all the time. That was not the best canning process, I guess. MARGARET LACY: I didn't think cans, I knew jars, would explode. Canning process you think? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I think so. It was just, you know from the farmers' market. But Atlanta was a very special place to grow up in. And I have the same dear, dear friends that I had in grammar school and all the way through high school, and we're still the best of friends and have lunch frequently. MARGARET LACY: At some point, you met your husband to be? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, I met my first one because he lived around the corner. His parents were good friends of my parents but he was five years older so I didn't really see him as much until he came home from the war. And he came home from the war and Miss May Haverty was having a dinner party, and she called and invited me. And she said, “I want you to come with Herbert Reynolds.” And I said, “Miss May, I hardly know him, we have nothing in common but our parents.” She said, “That's all you need, and he's going to pick you up.” And that was it. And we were married for thirty-eight years. Herbert had been in the Army for eight years. And he was stationed in the Panama Canal Zone for a long time; he had been all over the country. And then we had three wonderful children, and a very happy life. He had a very bad heart, and he died after we were married thirty-eight years. And seven years later I married George Kennedy, who was also in the service during the war. George was in the Navy, and he flew PBY's in the Pacific. And as he said, he was never in actual combat because it was mostly cargo, they transported cargo and soldiers, and things like that. MARGARET LACY: What sort of cargo, did he tell you? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Whatever, I guess, they needed—food, supplies, I don't know. He just said cargo. MARGARET LACY: And you stayed, while he traveled you stayed . . .? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, I didn't marry him, you see, until fourteen years ago. But Herbert and I, the war was over when we were married in 1946. So I didn't have to wait for either husband to come home from war. MARGARET LACY: Those were times weren't they, sometimes scary and sometimes so peaceful? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Absolutely, we knew a lot of boys who were gone. And most of our hometown boys had gone to war and a number of them were killed. And that was just devastating. I had one awful experience. I wrote to a boy, and I got one of my letters back saying, “not delivered” because he was deceased. And his family hadn't heard it yet, and that was horrible. I didn't say a word until after I had heard it from them. But that was a miserable thing. But we all had dates with lots of the soldiers and the sailors out at the Air force, had a good time. I'm afraid we had too much of a good time. MARGARET LACY: That was just different times. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It was. MARGARET LACY: No doubt about it. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I'll regress a minute. I did make my debut, we were the first, I don't know, the second wartime debutante club, and we decided to have only one party. And we had an afternoon reception and a dance that night. MARGARET LACY: [refers to newspaper article] Can you hold that up? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Um-mm. This one says “The war debutantes.” It shows a whole group of people, all good old Atlanta girls. And doing the various things, I was rolling bandages and they were writing to soldiers, and selling war bonds, and dancing at the [Georgian Terrace], and knitting. MARGARET LACY: Knitting, I never learned to knit. Okay, I don't know whether, this was before you were married, I guess? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yes. This was long before I got married. I didn't get married until 1946. MARGARET LACY: Uh-huh, and what was his occupation? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Herbert Reynolds, he sold truck trailers, commercial trailers. MARGARET LACY: Civilian? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Yeah, after he got out. MARGARET LACY: What was he when he was in the military? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: He was a major in the army in artillery. MARGARET LACY: And he was stationed where? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: In the Canal Zone most of the time. MARGARET LACY: That canal was important, strategic, wasn't it? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Right, he said he never knew when it was going to be blown up at any minute. MARGARET LACY: I wonder if they ever tried, I don't remember seeing that in the news. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't know that. I know that Herbert was very popular when he was there. And he was even elected mayor of Gatun, a little tiny village or something right at the Canal Zone. MARGARET LACY: Well, that's impressive. Did he like being mayor? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I guess he liked it. He was one of the younger officers, and I think that was a little difficult. He said he grew a mustache and a beard so he would look a little older. MARGARET LACY: Really, and that was his duties, protecting the Panama Canal? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Yes. MARGARET LACY: I never read anything about whether there was an attempt at that one or not. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't know, I never heard him say. MARGARET LACY: How long was he there? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: He was in the Army for eight years, and I don't know how long he was there. MARGARET LACY: And after that, you all came back to Atlanta? Well, you were here. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, I never left, and he came back to Atlanta. And we made contact after the war, and we were married at All Saints' Church. MARGARET LACY: And then you had your children and saw them growing up? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yes, I have three very fine young people. MARGARET LACY: I think you told me? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: They're old children now. MARGARET LACY: You told me one's in New York? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: My oldest son, Herbert, lives in New York with his wife, and they have no children. And I have a son, Jack, who lives in Atlanta and he has one daughter, who's beautiful and wonderful, of course. And then my daughter is married to Gary Crews [sp?], and they have two children, Christopher and Rachel. Chris is thirteen, and Rachel is twelve, almost twelve. MARGARET LACY: Do you ever tell any anecdotes about this time of your life to the grandchildren? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: One time, I think both of the young children had school projects to interview somebody during the war, and they came over and interviewed George. And then they asked me a few questions, but I was absolutely the “also ran,” he was the one that they were interviewing. But that was a school project. I don't think the children spent a great deal of time learning about the Second World War. It's too bad. It was a big part of our lives. MARGARET LACY: They just don't have a frame of reference a lot of times, there's nobody there that is firsthand. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, they have, George has airplane models of what he flew, in our house, and they have a picture of me christening the plane down at Moody Field. So they know about the war a little. MARGARET LACY: Well, I knew they christen ships, how do you christen a plane? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Same way, you just break a bottle on the nose. I don't know how they asked me, but whoever was the commander of the Moody Field in Valdosta came to see me. In fact, two nice Army officers came to call upon me, and ask me if I would come down to Valdosta for the celebration of the graduating class and christen a plane, and I was very flattered and I thought it would be great fun, so I did. I stayed with Miss Ella Ashley, who was a friend of my mother's. I did go out to the base and we pinned on the, what do you call them, the wings, the boys' wings, some of them. And then they had a dance that night and I christened the airplane. MARGARET LACY: I've got to show this one, may I? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Sure. MARGARET LACY: That is Miss Jacqueline and the other one, we had a name on it, Bernard Hurley. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't know where he was from. MARGARET LACY: He got his wings. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Yeah, he got his wings. MARGARET LACY: That one is unidentified, how did you get such good pictures? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: That was just the invitation to the dance, it was the 43rd graduating class at Moody Air force Base. MARGARET LACY: Nice, nice. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, I'll tell you about that. MARGARET LACY: All right. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: During the [war] years, we were asked to help to pick cotton, because nobody was around to pick cotton. So, a group of us went out and picked cotton. And I want you to know that was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, leaning over, picking cotton. I finally just sat down on the ground and “scooched” along and picked the cotton. Oh, it was back-breaking work. MARGARET LACY: Well, you wonder why they don't sit down to pick it if they have to lean over. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Unless you have a little rolling stool. It's not easy, but the farmer fed us great big wonderful vegetable lunch, and was very grateful that we had helped him out. I'll show you the picture of christening the airplane. MARGARET LACY: Oh, I don't know if I saw that one or not, which one is it? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It's over there. MARGARET LACY: In the movie, picking the little cotton had little thorns and hurtful things for the hands. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It was not an easy task I can tell you. I had great admiration for them. MARGARET LACY: Ah, dandy, let me see if I can get this. I want you to hold it, but I can get more in focus just in the camera. And that's the way, we get on to a stepladder [to christen the plane]. I wondered. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Whack it. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, first time, was the first time a success? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yeah. I hit it hard. MARGARET LACY: Did you practice? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, you just take the bottle and whack it. MARGARET LACY: I've seen them in the newsreels and they have to swing three or four times sometimes, and they say that's not good luck for the ship. If you get it the first time, it's the best. And it was named after Jacqueline. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Me. Yes, they left off the “e” but that was all right. MARGARET LACY: Maybe they didn't have room to put it in, I don't know. That was at Valdosta? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Moody Field, Valdosta. MARGARET LACY: What did you do after that? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, the war was over and we got married, had children. MARGARET LACY: Stayed busy. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Stayed busy from then on. As you know, it's a ring around the rosy with three children, everybody going in different directions. MARGARET LACY: I don't know why they do that. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: My children went to Lovett School, and they loved it. It's wonderful there, they had a wonderful education. Then they went on to greater things. MARGARET LACY: Some of them went off to college. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Yes, Herbert and Nancy both went to the University of the South at Sewanee. Herbert then went to Columbia, New York, to get his master's, and Nancy went to Vanderbilt to get her juris doctorate, whatever, to be a lawyer, jurisprudence, I guess they call it. And Jack went to Georgia State. They all graduated, and my husband and I said that was our greatest achievement to have all those diplomas on the wall. MARGARET LACY: I'd think I'd feel that way. None of them went to your school in Washington, D.C.? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, they wanted higher education than that. MARGARET LACY: Well, what did you think when you first heard the news about Pearl Harbor? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, of course we were distraught. There we were right in the middle of Washington and it was a little scary too. We didn't know when we might be hit or something. But we had a darling Japanese girl who was a student, and she didn't ever come back to school, of course. After that Friday, she left on Friday perfectly normally, and that was the end of her. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, it was probably news to her, too? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Probably so. MARGARET LACY: Because the Japanese, I can't say embassy, I don't know the title, but there were diplomats in Washington negotiating, the pictures in the paper. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Supposedly, but they waited until it had already been bombed, I think, before they ever negotiated. That was pretty exciting times because there were so many prominent people, and everywhere that we would go, at the concerts and everything else, you'd see all these men that you saw in the newsreels, and it was very exciting. And then we came home, all the boys were gone. Most of them had gone off to war. The only ones that were here were the ones who went to Emory, who were going to be doctors or something like that. MARGARET LACY: Maybe ministers, theology school, perhaps, I don't know about that, probably doctors, yep. Times changed just like with a turn of a switch. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Right. MARGARET LACY: It's true. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: But I lived in very exciting times, and Atlanta is a very happy place to grow up in. MARGARET LACY: It's grown so much and it's changed so much. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It's changed terribly; I'm not crazy about it. It's too big for me. MARGARET LACY: Head for the hills. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: We used to go downtown on the street car and know everybody. I don't go downtown at all if I can help it, and I don't know anybody when I'm there. MARGARET LACY: Now it's like any other big city, but it wasn't so big back then, I guess maybe that was the difference. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: But we had opera, the Metropolitan came every year, and that was really wonderful, it was so exciting. And I loved the opera, and I went every year. That was fun. And the Junior League and the Atlanta, I guess it was the Atlanta Opera Association, brought them every year. MARGARET LACY: Was that when they had it at the Erlanger? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, they had it at the Fox Theatre. And most of the stars stayed at the Georgian Terrace. MARGARET LACY: Across the street, wasn't it? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Right across the street, and that was fun to see them after the performance and all, sometimes going back over there. MARGARET LACY: Get to meet them, maybe? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, the Driving Club always had a big party after one of the operas, and I think the Capital City Club did, different clubs did, and we'd go to the party, and they would sing, they'd just stand up and sing. It was very exciting, but things got a little more organized, and I think it was during Mr. Bing's [Rudolf Bing, longtime Metropolitan Opera managing director] tenure that he stopped that. They still had parties, but it was a performance, it was planned. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, I wonder why he changed it. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It wasn't spontaneous singing or anything like that. MARGARET LACY: That's too bad. I guess that was just his decision. I don't know if unions had come in then or not. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I'm not sure about that. MARGARET LACY: And then . . . Mr. Reynolds passed on? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: He died in 1984. MARGARET LACY: '84, and then somewhere down the line you met Mr. Kennedy, who had a quite a different title then? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I knew him a long time, I knew his wife very well. And we had been friends and lived near by, but we didn't start having our dates until seven years later and then got married. And that's been a very happy union for the last fifteen years. MARGARET LACY: Very fortunate for both of you. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: We think so. MARGARET LACY: When you met Mr. Reynolds, did you know you were going to get married? She was a matchmaker, your hostess. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, well, I didn't know that night, but we started going out together and enjoyed each other and got more serious as time went on. MARGARET LACY: Well, that's a nice story. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It's been a nice life. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, I'm thinking of these movies where you have these terrible courtships and misunderstandings, and somebody gets lost and so forth. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, not us. Just plain old shoe we were. MARGARET LACY: Oh, I think it progressed in the best possible way. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I remember thinking about all the songs during the war. All of them related to the boys overseas. MARGARET LACY: I remember the one, “Till we meet again.” JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Yes, “Till we meet again,” and “I'll be seeing you,” and “Kiss me once, Kiss me twice, and Kiss me once again,” and then “Don't sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me.” MARGARET LACY: Now, that was one all of them jitterbugged to, I think. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: “Until I come marching home.” MARGARET LACY: Yeah. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Wonderful music. MARGARET LACY: It was. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Still is. MARGARET LACY: Well, I don't think anything has topped it, it hasn't had much competition. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, not at all. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, they were nice. Remember when “Gone with the Wind” came to Atlanta? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, what a thrill that was. Yes, I went to the party the night before. I think I was about fifteen and there was a group of us that went. One of the girls had a dinner party, and we all went. We were in a box. It was in the old auditorium. And it was across, all the way across the auditorium is where the stars were. MARGARET LACY: The old auditorium, was that on Edgewood? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It's all the way right smack in the middle of downtown, near where Georgia State University is. MARGARET LACY: All right, it's not there now is it? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't know. MARGARET LACY: Not unless there was something else, but that was the auditorium. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: My sister was seven years older, and she and her friends were the girls who were dressed in the costumes of “Gone with the Wind.” MARGARET LACY: Southern Belles. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It was very exciting, very romantic, I remember. MARGARET LACY: Did you see the movie that week? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yes, of course. And I've seen it a thousand times since, I think. MARGARET LACY: When Clark Gable went out the door, did the audience applaud? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yes, and another thing is that during the war, Peggy Mitchell and her husband, John [Marsh], were wonderful to the soldiers and sailors. These were the enlisted men mostly. And very, very frequently on a Sunday night she asked me and another girl or two to have dinner with them. And we'd go to the Driving Club, and she would always have some soldiers or sailors, no officers, they were always enlisted men. But I think it must have been a thrill for those boys to be invited by Mr. and Mrs. Marsh, who turned out to be Margaret Mitchell. MARGARET LACY: I get the feeling they were warm, interested hosts, she was so friendly. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, absolutely. MARGARET LACY: She wasn't five feet tall, was she? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Tiny little somebody, and just full of pep and vitality, and vim and vigor. She was fun. MARGARET LACY: Did she ever talk about her book? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Not to me. I don't think it ever occurred to us to ask her about it. We were young and I guess more interested in the soldiers and sailors at that point. MARGARET LACY: Well, they said after she sold the book to the movies that was the end of it for her, and she wouldn't comment or do anything. She did go see the movie, of course. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yes, she went to the premiere. MARGARET LACY: If they ever expected her to kibbitz, she never did. She also said, I think, that was the only book she was going to write. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, that was enough. MARGARET LACY: That covered it pretty well, yeah. Did you hear her say that? I think it was printed. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I didn't hear her say that. I've heard her talking about, I don't know what the occasion was but some publishers were here, and of course she was a writer for the [Atlanta] Constitution. And she was invited to a luncheon for all these people, and she sat next to some man and she casually said, “I've written a book.” And he said, “Oh, I'd like to read it.” And she said, “Well, it's in shoeboxes.” And he said, “Well, send me one.” So she did and he sent her a telegram or called her or something, and said, “Send more shoeboxes.” MARGARET LACY: Really? So that was a go from the first, wasn't it? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: It was the publisher or whoever. MARGARET LACY: I don't know who published it. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't remember. MARGARET LACY: I remember it was about the biggest novel I'd ever seen when they got it on the shelf. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I know. And you know it was really considered quite risqué. My mother didn't want me to read it when I was so very young. MARGARET LACY: That's right, but it was a hit from the beginning. But I understood that she wrote the book, she was home looking after a relative, maybe her father was ailing or something? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't think so. MARGARET LACY: No. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Because they said she wrote most of it when she was living at her apartment that's now the Margaret Mitchell House. She called it “the dump.” It was just a little tiny apartment in that house. And when you go there they show her typewriter and everything, and they say that's where she wrote most of it, but I don't know. MARGARET LACY: Why did she call it a “dump”? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Just because it was just an old house at the time, and there were lots of little tiny nook-and-cranny apartments, you know, they were not normal, they were just very small. MARGARET LACY: But think of the location. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Now. MARGARET LACY: Yes, what, Tenth Street and Peachtree, somewhere on there? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Yeah. Tenth and Peachtree. MARGARET LACY: Yes, perfect location. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, it's not on Peachtree, it's on . . . . MARGARET LACY: A side street, might have been Tenth Street or Eleventh, something like that. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Something like that. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, they got a Marta station there now. Interesting. You knew a lot of celebrities. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I did. I had very interesting growing-up years. MARGARET LACY: You met General Marshall because his daughter was in your school? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, she was a niece, and Admiral Leahy's granddaughter. But we were just a “how do you do” as we walked along, nothing exciting. Except with the Trumans, and we did sit and visit with them. They were there a lot. And Margaret came to Atlanta for her concert that was a terrible disaster, but she called me and invited me to come to tea. So, I went to the Biltmore and I went to the desk and I asked for Miss Truman's number, room number, and they said, “I'm sorry, we can't give that out.” And I gave them my name and I said, “I've been invited to have tea.” And so the clerk said, you go up to the fifth floor or sixth floor, or some floor. So, I got to that floor and the elevator opened and there sat an enormous big Secret Service man. MARGARET LACY: He [Truman] was vice president then. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: He looked at the list of people who had been invited and he checked me off and I could go in. So that was fun. And then I had a luncheon for her. Ann Quinn, Mrs. Hugh Quinn, had gone to Georgia Washington University with Margaret and they were friends, so I asked Ann to pick her up and she did. And my brother had come back from the war, and he was at Tech and I told him that I was having it, and he said, “Oh, I'm going to come over there.” And I said, “Well, you're not invited.” And he said, “That's all right, I'm just going to come and hang around, because I want to see the Secret Service.” And he was so disappointed because Ann Quinn brought Margaret Truman, and there wasn't any Secret Service. But we had a very pleasant time, and she told us all sorts of little anecdotes about moving into the White House and about her piano, when they put it down and the leg went through the floor. And that's when they found out it [the White House] had to be renovated because all the timbers underneath were scorched from the War of 1812. MARGARET LACY: Really, I've never heard that. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: So that's why they moved to Blair House, and they lived there most of the time that Mr. Truman was the President, because you know that was when he did over the whole White House. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, they spent most of their time across the street, that's right. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: But she told us lots of fun little stories about growing up, or being there, not growing up because she was grown. MARGARET LACY: Yeah. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I can't think of any other exciting things that happened. MARGARET LACY: Well, you skipped a little bit, I think. She came to Atlanta to do a concert which apparently wasn't successful. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Wasn't too successful. I made my husband go. And Ann McCardy had also gone to Dunstan with her, and Ann and Molly [?] and the Hugh Quinns went, and we all went with great anticipation because we were invited to come backstage afterwards, and I thought the boys were going to get up and leave, it was a pretty poor concert. She had a very sweet, nice voice, but no concert voice. MARGARET LACY: Oh, dear, I bet she felt badly about that too, didn't she? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't think so. I think she thought she was splendid. MARGARET LACY: All right. That was interesting, though. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: She sang at the choir at school and the Glee Club and all that, and that was lovely. I mean, she had a lovely voice. MARGARET LACY: I think I heard her sing at one time, it was all right. I couldn't have done it. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, I couldn't either. MARGARET LACY: It was not an ordinary voice. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No, but not an operatic voice. MARGARET LACY: She had training. Now, well, she's written a couple of books herself. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: She's a nice, nice girl. And she was not a pretty girl, but she made the most of herself. She had beautiful skin and hair, and she wore very good-looking, simple, elegant clothes. As I said she really made the most of herself. MARGARET LACY: Well, her parents were so nice. Well, as you said these were interesting times. Did you, I know you did a lot of volunteer work, if you want to cover some of that? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, from the war years, with rolling the bandages, and selling the war bonds, and dancing with the soldiers—that wasn't volunteer, but that certainly was fun. And I did a lot of work in the Junior League later, but that was with the Speech School and the normal things like that that everybody does. I didn't do anything outstanding. MARGARET LACY: You did a lot of volunteering. I don't guess you ever had any thought about employment considering all the other things you tended to. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I did a lot at my church during the time. Herbert and I taught Sunday school for about six years. And I was on the Altar Guild and things like that, was chairman of my church circle. MARGARET LACY: Your days were pretty well filled? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Sure, but those as I say were normal activities that everybody did. MARGARET LACY: Well, I don't want to leave out anything, so what would you tell your grandchildren if you . . . . JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I haven't told them anything. MARGARET LACY: I mean just general conclusions about where you were and how it went? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, I'll tell you the truth, I've got this grown granddaughter and I haven't told her anything about growing up in Atlanta, but I don't think she's ever asked me. And then as I said the younger ones had school projects and they interviewed us. MARGARET LACY: I'm so glad they did. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: But I still don't think the young people can quite grasp the horrors of the Second World War and the devastation and everything else that was in Europe. MARGARET LACY: Every neighborhood lost members. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I was in Dresden a few years ago, and a man was a tour guide, we were taking the city tour. And he was telling about the wonderful things that went on when the Communists were there. He said, “My daughter got to go to ballet school, and we had this and that, and we had the other thing. The Americans, Roosevelt and Churchill bombed our beautiful city.” And he kept going on and on and on, and I couldn't stand it, and finally I said, “But you're free aren't you?” And he said “Yes” and didn't say another word. So. But it just irritated me. MARGARET LACY: Well, he wasn't gracious. What was his nationality? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: He was German. MARGARET LACY: Talking about Communists. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, he was under—see, they lived in Dresden. And the Russians took over. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, that probably explains some of his reaction perhaps, I don't know. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: And that is a beautiful city and still is a beautiful city, and they had left some of the bombed out things. You could see the ruins of different churches. MARGARET LACY: What year were you there in Dresden, before the wall came down? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, no, this was after Herbert died. It was after '84 sometime. MARGARET LACY: Somewhere in '87 or '89 the wall came down, I'm not clear which. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I'm not sure. MARGARET LACY: So he was still in East Germany, maybe? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Maybe, but I think the Dresden Museum is the most beautiful place I have ever been, just magnificent. They had saved everything. I think I understood the people had taken things and put them in caves and all sorts of places. But it is simply glorious. MARGARET LACY: I have not heard of anybody mentioning that, could you tell us about that? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Well, it's just that, going in—my sister and I were traveling together—and I said, “Look at those gorgeous Cannelettos”. She said “Shhh! How do you know they're Cannelettos?” I said, “Well, you know I took history of art at school.” And they were, of course, magnificent paintings, and then they have the crown jewels, and it just was a gloriously beautiful museum. Lots of fine, fine paintings, I loved it. MARGARET LACY: Yeah, you spend a long time there, half a day, all day? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, yes, you have to, to see it. Everywhere we went seems to me, I adore every place I've ever been in Europe and I'd like to go back. And every time someone says, “where would you like to go?”—I'd like to go anywhere, I loved it all. MARGARET LACY: On that tour, where else were you? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: That time we went on a little trip down the Elbe River. We started in Berlin. It was right after, just about a week after the Berlin Wall came down. And we were only the second ship to go down, the boat I guess they call it, because they were river boats down the Elbe River. And that's when we went to Dresden. And Berlin was a magnificent city, too. It was pretty well bombed out when we saw it, it had not been restored. We did see Checkpoint Charlie, all those things. But one thing we saw in Berlin that was a thrill to me. We had gone to the Pergamon Museum and the Pergamon Altars, and there was a poster in the museum of Nefertiti. I said, “Oh, is Nefertiti here?” And the lady at the desk said, “No, she's in a little museum.” So we got in a taxi and went to that little museum, it was in a little house. And we went up the steps and it was pitch black dark. And across the way, you could see this one light. And in this black room with this one light on, the head, statue of Nefertiti was the most dramatic thing you've ever seen, and gloriously beautiful. MARGARET LACY: You were so fortunate to have all those good trips, but Pergamon was a word I didn't recognize. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Pergamon Altars, they must, they come from Egypt I think. [coughs] I talked myself dry. MARGARET LACY: Well, I'm sorry, because it's so interesting. We don't want you to talk yourself dry. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I can't think of anything exciting. MARGARET LACY: Okay. Well, I think it's been exciting, and I thank you kindly. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Thank you very much. It was a real treat for me to be here. MARGARET LACY: Glad to have all this history you've given us. Did you want to mention any of the other cities you visited, European tours? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: No. MARGARET LACY: All over, you saw a lot of museums. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I loved it all. MARGARET LACY: I'm surprised at the attendant who said what he said, though. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Uh-huh, made me mad. MARGARET LACY: Yes, I can understand that. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, one thing that was exciting. When I was at Dunstan Hall, it was Roosevelt's Third Inaugural. The school had seats right across from the White House. MARGARET LACY: Really? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: And that was very exciting. I was embarrassed because all the state cars went by, each governor had a car, and they'd just go by with great dignity past the president, except Georgia. Georgia's [car] came along, the back door opened, and Herman Talmadge poked his foot out and waved. With his red suspenders. And, of course, I was seventeen or eighteen years old, and I was embarrassed for the whole state of Georgia. MARGARET LACY: Well, he had his own style. Did he exit from the back? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Oh, no, didn't have to exit at all, just put his foot out. There were running boards, you know, then. MARGARET LACY: I had forgotten running boards. They say they're bringing them back. Some of the Suburbans, but I'm not sure. So Talmadge did come to the parade, though? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Every state in the Union was recognized, everybody was there. But that was very exciting because that will never happen again, I don't think. MARGARET LACY: Probably not. You'd have to have too many guards nowadays, anyway. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't think there's been a president that we would want for three years, I mean for three terms. MARGARET LACY: Well, they put that in the law, didn't they? Two, and that's it. For governor of Georgia, also, isn't it? JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I think so. MARGARET LACY: Well, I want to say thank you again. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Thank you. MARGARET LACY: I hope you come back. I know you've got a lot more to tell us that we didn't think of this morning. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: I don't know. MARGARET LACY: Okay.
Metadata URL:: http://album.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm/ref/collection/VHPohr/id/234
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Extent:: 46:06
Original Collection:: Veterans History Project oral history recordings
Veterans History Project collection, MSS 1010, Kenan Research Center, Atlanta History Center
Holding Institution:: Atlanta History Center
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