T. Lang interview with Russell Hornuckle, Mrs. Russell Hornbuckle, Mrs. Hayes Lawsey, and Carl Lambert

The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. The interview begins at 3:27 with Mrs. Hornuckle, a woman of Cherokee descent, telling a story originally told to her by her grandfather about an old Indian woman, named Yungi, who captured children and ate their brains. 5:47: Next, Russell Hornuckle, a man of Cherokee descent, talks about the Fa So La singing technique, also called shape note singing. He talks about "leatherbritches," wild produce that they hung out to dry before eating. This is followed by Russell and Mrs. Hornuckle demonstrating Fa So La singing, including singing "Where the Roses Never Fade." Russell Hornuckle says Henry Bradley taught him to sing using this method. Hornuckle says that this form of music originated from the Indians. He also talks about a pipe hanging on the wall given to him by his father that Russell used to smoke Prince Albert tobacco. Lang asks how long the couple has had electricity, and they reply twelve years, before which they used an oil and kerosene lamp. 14:26: Mr. Hornuckle discusses his grandfather, who was a midwife, and talks about the types of teas and home remedies he used for boils, headaches, chicken pox, snake bites, toothaches, and other ailments. These remedies include witch hazel tea, crow's foot that grows along a creek, poplar bark, and boneset. 19:42: The interview switches to Russell talking about his mother and her ten children. He adds that he has ten children himself with his wife of 41 years, who he met at a Cherokee school in Bigwitch, North Carolina. He talks about building his house, including the purchase of the land and how he used logs. 24:09: Next, Hayes Lawsey's wife tells a story about her grandfather encountering a strange white handkerchief in the middle of the road that spooked his horse near Wright's Creek. Mrs. Lawsey describes superstitions involving screech owls and magical transformations. A Cherokee Indian, she says that her mother, and other witch doctors, could cast spells. 31:28: Mrs. Lawsey says her daughter plays musical instruments and won first prize in the talent show for singing. She also describes the types of herbs doctors used, such as mint tea. Later in the tape, she describes how her husband makes blow darts, bows, and masks. 37:15: This section of the tape is a recording of "Cool Chilly Waters" sung at the Wright's Creek Church by Willard and Elena Smith. 39:20: Lang next interviews Lambert, a Cherokee Indian, who talks about when his cousin George was shot and killed. His grave diggers encountered a black snake and two weeks later several people affiliated with the incident died. 42:15: Lambert then tells a story about when his father worked as a postmaster in the mountains. His next few stories revolve around superstitions: one story features a haunted abandoned building on a reservation and a Cherokee belief in witches turning people into animals. He refers to Swimming Swimmer, a noted Indian storyteller. Lambert also talks about the forced relocation of Indians during the 1800s and his belief in little people of Cherokee folklore. 1:06:00: Next, Lambert refers to previously recorded oral histories conducted by Cherokees that might be found at the University of Pennsylvania. He describes the communities Indians lived in, the gender roles in their culture, and how they fished. Lambert also talks about an old Indian mound and arrowheads he dug up from the ground. 1:19:37: At the conclusion of the interview, Lambert talks about the lack of doctors on the reservation, he lived 25 miles from the nearest dentist, and his quest to find a cure for his toothache. Despite the availability of Western medicine, there were also many Indian remedies to treat a fever and other injuries. No biographical information about Russell and Mrs. Hornuckle, Mrs. Lawsey, or Carl Lambert has been determined. Native Americans; Family history FOLKLORE COLLECTING PROJECT English 307 John Burrison " /13YI THOMAS W. LANG rraff~c muved slowly dS it winded through uuter Atlanta, and it seemed as though Chsrokee, North Carolina \'~as days away.. 'I'Ve busied ourselves with map-l.'saJing, each one of us having a faster route in mind. Larry and Carolyn, an ex-roolllhiate dnd h~s girl, argued spasmodically over the currect roads to take, Carolyn being backed up by the map clutched in her dainty hand. My wife and I, in the backseat, fumbled with the tape recorder and agreed to regard the trip as a belated honeymoon with collecting as the main objective. As we rode through the small communities north of Gainesville 1 was very impatient and wanted to stop at every antiquated abode I saw. DId men on front porches added to my anxiety. The girls were primarily interested .' in admiring the scenery as the leaves were beautiful.. We saw the mountains in the distance and before 1 could tell, we were looking down and our Bars began to pop.. Larry and Carolyn 'Ivere taking the trip mainly as an escape from the humdrum routine of work and school, dnd I feared their disinterest would hinder my collecting. It was late afternoon ~vhen we arrived in the city-limits of Cherokee, and suddenly I found myself at a loss for a starting place. ! was there but totally inexperienced and confused. The tourist shops, dancing Indians, and commercial appearance of the place put me into a whirl of misgivings as I had expected a general store and deserted type of atmosphere. '~~e decided to get a motel room early, which later proved to be a wise move because all the rooms were taken by nightfall. Having one lead, at, least, the partial acquaintance of a large family J.n the mountains, 1 persudded Larry to strike out with me while we left our girls shopping. Directions ~vere easy to abta; i.n, since everyone knew everone else.. The only problem was that people didn't instruct us in our terms but rather in lucal terms such as,Uig Cove, 2 this creek ami across, his branch on the other side of so-and-so mountain. After several minutes of deciphering the instructions and the discovery that the streets on the outskirts of town were named after the creeks which they followed, ItJe headed in the right direction. Taking a left turn off the main highway, we traveled north on ~'Jright t s Creek Road, paved to my surprise, for about two miles, each mile seemingly taking us back in tiwe. The road divided on a crest and was no longer paved. Big ~~itch Creek Hoad went down in the valley between the two massive mountains, while \iright I s Creek Road veered around the bend. ~Je followed tht::: latter and the going became rather rough. We passed several houses and I wanted to approach all of them, but I held out until we pulled up to a l0(J house overlooking the road. On the other side of the road was an old barn made of split logs. A dried-up corn field sloping down to the creek served as the background. This acreage was traded for twenty bushels of corn, r later found out. ~J8 were now at John Smith t shouse. Larry and I climbed up the stone walkway and were melt by six eyes cautiously peering out from behing a screen door. Once on the porch, the lady of the house CdrtlB out followed closely by two young girls. The porch was constructed of boards and split logs while the main structure was a notched log building. Several rocking chairs littered the porch, and the outside wall was strung with various items. I introduced myself and said that her son, Ned, in Atlanta had told me that they might be able to help me in my collecting project. They all claimed to be ignorant of such facts having nothiny to offer, but I persisted. The father came out and I questioned him as to tales, songs, and other items. He was uf no help. ItJe d.ld get invi ted to church several. times by the family, but we had to refuse because we hadn't brought what we considered llchurch tl clothes. The old man, about 65, told us to come anyway. He re3 called that once they had a lumberjack preacher whD used tD shDw up tD preach in overalls with mud clear up to his waist. These fplks were about half Cherokee Indian and never missed a chance to express this fact. They gave us reference to a family down the hill who sang in church and Hayes Lawsey who was renowned as a liar and great tale-teller. I noticed a huge shallow wood bowl with ladles hanging from a nail in the wall and asked Mr. Smith what it WclS and if he would sell it. The answer was a firm IINol1 and that it was a bread pan the "Dld fDlks" used for dDugh making. When asked if he had any Dther Dbjects frDm the old days he produced a pair Df shoe molds from the days when wooden pegs were used instead of nails. Larry and I were ready to be on our way as this family wasntt of much help. We departed down the hill fDr Russell HDrnbuckle's horne. This turned Dut tD be a framehouse across the creek. A twelve inch board was the means one used to cross the creek. When we came up to the front of the house, on thl;;: road, I noticed a larlJB man gathering firewood in the yard some 30 yards from the porch where his wife was seated, along side another woman who turmed out to be one af his daughters. As I teetared across the bDard approaching the gDuse, with tape recorder in hand, the women disappeared from the pourch and all was left was Mr. Russell Hornbuckle, a robust man in his sixties, quite big boned and wearing denim overalls. I introduced myself, and then Larry who was a little late as he'd encDuntered d~fficulty in crDssing the stream. There was a little scepticism on the man's part as tD our appearance(1 hesitate tD call him an Dld man because Df his health and his general happiness with life), but all doubts were SDon gDne and we were all laughing Dn the porch and nDt getting right down tD facts yet. (This was very easy, tD create a warm atmosphere, ma~' n1y because Mr. Hornbuckl e was very re~<lp. t ~' ve and a1so because Larry and I had lived together for a long time and we seem to almost always be laughing and in good spirits.) Russell professed ignorance in every aspect of folklore, but I could see it all around him as well as the fact that he, himself seemed to me a huge store of it , so I was determined to get something and presisted. He still produced nil, but we had not 'warmed'up yet. His wife came out and I questioned her,( she seemed a little more forward at first, later when things got rolling, Russell loosened up and dominated conversation). She was nervous as you can tell by the tape and started a spook story her father told her very fast: (Mrs. H.- R.H. LEF &T.L. shall represent the speakers, LEF being Larry) .I::llli.Ji.:"an' if it, they-the menfolks went out to hunt-she just sit still an a stay at home like she wanted to take care of the cookin' and things an the- the; as they eat the meat; she'd feed it to the hunters and what was left over, they'd a- she'd even eat the bones- ya know. and ah - so one evenin' the men come in ant and ah - jist like the dogs were talkin' and or the cats, whatever animals they had - said: this old woman's not goodsaid'ah everytime she eats a piece of meat she don't give us the bone - and if she took a chile and took care of it- she wanted to take caee of a chile good, and well she acted good around the parents ~r whoever - and they - and she wanted to be good to 'um so she could put leetle hole in their head an git the brains out an eat 'um - and the - and if she killed one that way she'd take it out and eat it. Now this is what my grandpa used ta tell us and it used ta scare the wits outta me. T.L.: "Well, who did he say this Was about?" MRS H.:"Well ah ... the old Indian name wuz Yungi that wuz her name ya see." g.: "What does that mean?" MRS H "Yungi - that's ah; in ah English it's a needle - she wuz sharpl ya know and could do these things." g.: "Oh, were there many tales about her? Or just that one?" ~.'''Just :\Ihis one. I knew that - there were more to it but I jI; I can't remember everything about it." I..!.b..:" Well, ah, are there any more you can r8membe~- Have a seatl ll MillLt!..:" But they soon got rid of her when they found her." g.,"How did they get rid of her?" ~.IiIP1, they took her out and beat up -" Lll..1.. "How'd they find out?" T.L "They call her a - They burn her? or you know. is there a certain way of gettin' rid of 'm - back in those days?" ~,'''Well they made a big fire and ah I dunno - they set it afare an they laid her on it and burned her up-" This ended her tale and once again I turned to Russell who now had loosened up having lost his fear in his wife's example, and we now discussed the Fa So La singing techniques which I hoped he knew. He hinted knowledge of it and I immediately grew anxious to hear it, but first he had to explain it to me. !!i:"fa so la fa so la- they just used those four notes but we used the shape notes see? do ra fa so 1a te do _" T.bl."Like how would you start out a song?" RH: "It's accordin' to what the song'd be - like ah - it'd be ah -" J::1!lU:" Let's sing 'What a friend We Have In Jesus'- in one verse of Indian an one of English tt TlI" Do you start t!;lat out with the notes or do you just start that out with singing?" .B!i:"We can sing the notes to that ya see., we can sing music to most any of the songs, ya see . ,ll lb.: "That t s fine 111 the road. ( Laughing)." " All this conversation took place on the porch and nightfall had crept upon us and it was now cold and dark. While they scrounged the house for a hymnal they invited Larry and myself inside, giving us the best seats in the house while they stood. The inside of the house was of a combination of sheet rock and bits of wood along the wa]s.. A large iron woodstove warmed the entire house from the living room. The room itself was the biggest in the house and had family pictures, old family, on the walss. As for electricity, there was a keyless light on the ceiling and the romex which ran to it was stapled on the wall and ceiling quite in view. Kerosene lamps still remained on tables.Meanwhile, they were unable to locate "What a friend We Have In Jesus" but Mrs Horbbuckle hed one book and was busy thumbing the pages while I talked with Russell: .lb: "Where did ya live before this?" RH:"Back up the holler - back up here - back in the Cove." .lb: (pointing) "what is that stuff hangin' right there on that?" RH: "That I s ah, LEATHERBRITBHE5 " TL:" Leather a .. What I s leatherbritches?" !!it "Leatherbritches what ya eat shuckybeans or whet ya .lb: "They grow wild or you grow 'm?" .B1JJ" We grow 1m in the garden, then we put 'm on a string, see, an' they dry. " TL:ItDa ya eat'um?lt Eli: "Yea, ya take 'm and acald them again then put ' m in a pot an ah .. " TL: "How long they gotta dry?" RH:lt Well, right now they keep ," TlI "They're ready huh?" !!i:" Keep all winter there - there not " (botch~ed up tape in this area) (Now continuing with Russell we're on the topic of superstition and he's in the process mf telling a funny on the 'black cat belief we're all familiar with). !!i'" How'd it ever git across the road if it didn't go across (Laughing) What'd they do, just stay on one side of the road? Next came the highlight of my collecting as far as I'm concerned, a real live fa 50 La song done by traditional people. Prior to this bit of folklore, my thoughts on the subject were that there was some but it must be very scarce, but here I'd acmually found some singers who still sang the old way. The thrill I received from this is unexplainable, though I must add that I gid get goose bumps while listening. Unable to locate "What a friend We Howe in Jesus" in print they.. . '. resorted to another favorite oj) their's: ("Each Day I'll Do a -Golden Deed". \ _ _ --------- - - - - ---- -------------------------.! Because of the complexity of notes and Cherokee language I didn't transcribe it, but it is beautiful, and to m" quite fasinating. After the song, we discussed that type of singing: lb.: "vJhen they sing in the church down here, do they sing with t!;>e fa 50 La notes?" RH:" No,no, it's sh to this generation, ya See this livin l generation -;;-;;w, why they.. they don I t know a thing about.. just like you all II RH:" It's kind of what you would call itl Ah, towards them now ta sing ah, m music to a song see, we were raised up we had to learn the notes before we could go on to the music, ya see? We sung the musia* on thare (another boo boo with the low rent recorder) "ah, you could sing to these young people an they'd ah they'd ah .. it's a mystry to 'urn, you know, how ya sing1m .bli.:" Yea, it is, it is to me " lb.:" Who taught you how to sing this way? It " It II If II like this?" !lli.:" ah, fella by the name of Henry Bradley " TL:" Where's ole Henry now?" !lli.:" Hets daid now he's been dead for " TL:" He taught the whole neighbor hood, or church or what?" llli.: II Differebt places around Yes J me an her, we sung under him, ya see? We learned under him " lb.:" Where are your folks from?" .!lli:" My folks is from Georgia ahlll (here, he caught himself as though he'd disclosed a terrible secret.) (Once again the tape recorder boo booed) Now,after very little coaxing they ate ready to go into another song: (tt,Where the Roses NeverfarJe";) They have two starts in this song as they .,;;ae-an--error in the first attempt. I must also add that they'd have sung till morning came had not Larry and I persuded more aspects of lore. RH:lI Indians are a singin this hers four noted TL:" The Indians?" RHl-(here he carries on an Indian rhythm in the four notes, Do La 50 Ra) IIYa see. it don't git out of them thar four notes " TL:" Did it originate with the Indians?" RH: uYeal l1 TL: "This type singin' did?" RH:"Yea, this does that they sing ya see?" TL:" Yea, but what you learned, do you think it sprung from the Indians?" RH:" Yea... I think it did yea, the four noted song .. because they had a ~ok (Once again the recorder misses it~ calling and I almost smashed it) When the tape returns to normel we're discussing a pipe hanging behing a picture on the wall. It was one his Daddy gave him, he was from: RH: "Lumbert' n North Carolina. It's a cottonwood etem an a cherry bowl. !!:::" He gave it to you?" .!lli: "Yea, he gave it to me ah, after he died I told fum I wanted that and the pictur~f my Mother , right thar see? The reason I said she was from Georgie, she wuz a Maney see before she married my Daddy. She was a Maney and they originally came from Georgie. 1t 7 ,ll".:" Did you ever smoke that pipe?lIhat did you smoke in it?" m: II Prince Albert, or some other. ," lJ.:Oh,you didn't What dmd he smobe in it? llli:" He smoked Prince Albert all the time. I1.:" Prince Albert, you bought the stuff didn't have any " ~" No, they had this ole they had this home made tobacco twist tobacco ya know. t1 I.J,..;" Yea, I thought you shewed that .. " JlIi:" Well, they smoked it too. (laughing)" TL:" How long have you had electricity out here?" fj81" How long is it Nora... NORAI twelve77? (An element of surprize here.l I must insert a few facts about not only the electricty but also Nora whu is Russell's thiry some odd year old daughter. By observation, I could see plainly that the wiring in the house was more recent than 12 years. My occupation, an electrical wholesaler, lends to a familiarity with all aspects, hence I could tell that the romex stapled across the wall was recent in that it had a plastic jacket which has only ~een in use a few years. Also I had heard that these folk in this area had just gotten electricity in the past few years from other sources. As fo~ Nora's answer, well I'd also heard that she was s little'touched in the haidl and she was living at home with two children, having never been married. Her son, David, a kid of about ten Was with us at all times, both larry and I addressed him several times asking the usual questiobs, and never getting an answer. The boy never spoke during the time we were there. Another fact about Nora, once I tried to ask her a question while she was in her refuge in the kitchen, and got no answer, so I entered the kitchen whereupon she went to the back porch, when I went a few steps toward the porch she dashed out in the yard heading for the woods in back. When I came back in Russell had no explanation other than !lthat's the Indian in he"'." k; l!..i.""hat'd you do before electricity?" BJiL"Burnt the lamp. ~.: lIThe lamp with oil and kerosene in the bottom. II (Aththis point the tape recorder got tangled up.) BJ;!; "IVlid-wife IVly grandpa was a mid-~'l/ife when he had to go to places held just go from house to house see, and, uh, take care of the birth of these chile ... Yes ... we never had no hospital ya see." W IlHe deliver you'/" Jlli,: "Yes sir, yeah." ~IJJ:,: "~ow corne his wife didn't do the work?" Did they have a lot of men?" 1J",; "Did they all hire a doctor?" ~tj: "Doctor, yeah. If :Tr: "He have any remedies for cure or anything?1I .stL;IlWeml no - the lnd~ans mighta had - I don't know what." TJl;."Yau don't know any remedies he had at all - You rernelnbrer'(l1 (directed at Mrs. H.) ~:IINo.1I " ~1l1 don't ~now too much about it ya know" HThey wouldn't - back when we were growin l up. They wouldn't talk about sex much with us ya see. How then little fellers knows it, see." B!::!J "Oh we got, uh, Baneset - witch hazel tea I n catnip tea and LEF:"vJhat d~d you put on cuts7" How about for open sore'lll llfu "Plant in ' - put plantin' on either-wilt it on the stwve and then put it on top of lim - and for a risen or boil. l.W Ilput bacon or something like that?" J3.!:L;llput bacon on it or take a case knife and hold it over the lamp or get it hot and hold it close to that boil and heat it." "Put fat meat on it." LLF: tlHow about headaches?" HH: IIThey wasn't t~o much, uh, they used this here " .l:1x.s..: liMy mother used to go out and get Crow I s foot that grows along the creek, she'd get the roots and beat it up and make a poultice and lay it across hal. haiss." TL:"Crow's foat?!t ~IICrowls foot - it's a green that grows along the creek see - and they eat it'": some people eat it. II LEf: llHow about diarrhea'/ll J:!IXll"We use poplar bark - scrape the bark off of it and kinda cook it, or either some kine1s of weeds that grows. 1 dunno the names of it, but you take the roots and boil it down and drink it for about 3 or 4 days." ~'5he had it, (diarrhea), just not too long age. Ya knm' what we did for it? (No) \~e went aver here and gat a piece of persimmon bark - the inside you know - scrape it, the side the sun shines against see. And she taak that and then the next day it was checked." TL: "Why does it have to be that side7" RH: "v-Jell, I don't know. II ill ""ho told you about that7" ill:iJ, 'I'Well, uh, ancient, uh, grandfather- or mother . " fu"Did they tell you anything else like that'l Any other cures7 for anything like chicken pox or rneasles?1I ill: "Fever7" ,TL: "How do you break a fever?" J:l.tl.t"Boneset 1" LEF: "vJhat 's that d07" nH: " It's a weed that grows that high (3') and the leaves come around on it, you know - just kinda I round - like a balsam weed - grows in the- swamps - you take that and git in the bed and drink that " llf..; "And that Was it7" _RH: "Yeah. II B!:!.:."Now for snake bite - not that you fellers might extend that a little on it - is a - you know we have a poison snake here, Co~perhead and rattlesnake, and our dog gits bit with a copperhead see, and he swells u~ We just go down thare to the creek and get a little weed when it's up ya know, when it's wintertirne. Get that weed In bring that weed up and put it in 80me good Warm sweet milk, and give it to that dog right thare like out there this evening and in the marnin' he's a - ~:IIUoes it in one night?" RH: IIDoes it in one night." lI~~hy dontt you dig up $omethin' and see why ~ldn't a human drink that?ll ill "Yeah. 1l LEF: "How about toothaches7" ~ B.l:i..iltWell there used to be. Therels a WOman livin' now that used to pull teeth see. She's yot her, oh, whatayacall instruments that they used, ya know'lShets gott em ritht over there - the other creek across the mountains, here now that she used. She doesn't do yet, but she dmd see, but she's so old now she cantt hardly git about see. Shets still livin'." LEf: "Uid she give you anyth~ny to kill the painl" ..a1::l: II No ! They never killed no pain." TL:"What did you do for a toothache?" MRS H:" Oh, my friend; j my mother used ta dig up ah, is it Indigo? Vea, and beat the roots and kinda wet it with a leetle warm water, then it got fine ya know, an then she'd cram it in the tooth or by the tooth that wus hurtin' an it'd relieve it awile. Here Russell went into directions as to how to get to this 90 year old woman's house, Liza Jane Briden. Then the conversation shifted to me looking for some tall tales or lies and once again the name of Hayes Lawsey popped up. He lived right up the mountain back off the road about a quarter of a mile. We discuseed him in a few sentences and I knew that I'd die trying to see him. TL::' He lie to most everybody in the neighbo"hood7" RH:" Well, he's pretty good at that .. you know, tellin' tales like that. Some OfOm enjoyfit ya see, but we n~er thaught of anything like teat ya se~, but these other things, why we, you kno,'J.. just like we wuz tellin' t bout my GiBandpa see, ah " JtlRS H;" Since we been civilized ya know II TL: " Civilized, (Laughing) How long have you been civilized?" MRS H:" \,hen we got electricity." ~ll When we were my Mother, she never Wane to no hospital, with us, ant she raised ten of us. 1l ~11 How many children you got?" RHl." (Proudly) I got ten; 5 boys an 5 girls." ..I1.l" An' you tell me yuu didn't tell any tales all along ten of'm7" RH: " Well no, I mean I been gain' to church pretty well and I don't like to." TL;"You build this house?" RH:" (Proudly) Ves sir!" TL," How'd you build it?" ~' I built it out of logs; just notched ' m and laidtm up. useu ax. ~" What'd you put between the lmgs,ah mudl ,Bl:i.:lfAh, mud, just mudl1 fbltlVJouldnlt it wash out when it rained'lll .B.t!J "No it dried on each gable ends ya see." Ik.;"How'd you get the lJnd'I" illi,}' I swapped this, I swapped apiece of land at the head of the Bradley Branch to my Aunt that lives right up here, the boy's you wuz talkin' to, his mother. I swapped her that place for this place here, all the way up to the to~ of the mountain, this way.1I I..L..: Ills it all yours now'l" Bl:i;" No, I sold this to Hayes Lawsey over here." ill "Just came out here and clear it r(1I ..illi':'" no, no, ah, it wuz already cleared, this wuz. Now when my father and Mother came... here they came in heLe through the mountains on a trail ya see, they cleared it ya see. There wadn It nubody lived in here see and they cut these here big popular trees no saw mills and they jest piled 'm up ;!il'i0/160 in loilg heaps they calledtm an started 1m an' burned t m Up.1I ll....;.ltWhere d~d you meet your wife at"" l:iJ:L;." I met her here down Bigwitch, they call i t B~gwitch, the other prong up there ya know. She wuz a Crow before she married me. I met her in Cherokee school where they had ah, Bin married, I dunno t Is it 40, 4P years, Mama? .MRS H:"41" We left the Hornbuckles as it was late and our girls were shop~ing stil.l and must have been famished 50 we picked them up and ate, intendeing to see Hayes Lawsey later. We had gone by his place earlier but he was gone out and his dau~hter said to COHle later and she was sure he'd help us. We returned tu Lawsey' s house at about 9; 30 in the evening and he still was aut gathering thistles to ma~e blow gun darts with. Nat wanting to make the trip for nothing I decided that his wife must remember a few tales he tells, and she did. About the 'Lawsey house, it is a coon's age from the dirt road. that his trail runs off, and that trail is rutted very deep. The house was very small wi th a parch boarded u~ and only one door, which was around gack which led through the kitchen and un into the living room. It was the most unkempt house I believe I'Ve ever had occasion to visit, with food on the floor scattered everywhere in the living room which had in its center a huge pot bellied stove and linolum covered floors. Mrs Lawsey Was a short squatty woman in her late fifties of early swxties, but then again, these folk amaze me with their robust appearances, and she didn't even look that old but she was. Her husband was full blooded Cherokee, and she seemed to be at least half Indian. With her was her daughter's little girl of about four years, and very dirty also. The woman didn't seem at all perturbed with the state of her house, and she told a few tales she remembered: MR5 11::" 50me that my lladdy tale, my Baddy tole me, and it really happened to him, an it'd be hard for everybody to believe that, I mean, an for everybody to believe iy now but, but it really happened to him. I wuz just a kid. He used to ride a horse all the time dawn here below. below where Russell (Russell Hornbuckle), where Alec lives, where they ground corn meal. . an I my Daddy come down on a horse an' an there wuz a short cut where you go, instead a gain' all the way around ya know, the wagon road, you go right through the trail an' my Grandmother always told him when he wuz travelin ' there not to take that short cut because she said she told him that he'd see sumthin' in there ya know, it's spooked. 50 he thou~ht, he wuz in a hurry that night and he thought he'd just go through there and before it sto~ped he said the moan wuz shinin' bright, an' his horse started jumpin' up and dawn and stopped 'n he wouldn't understand why it wouldn I t go on and he said out in front of him in the road there wuz a white handerchief so he got down an' tried to pick it outta the road and he said when he kicked it outta the road that it run under his feet an' he fell, yaknow, fell in the road, an' everytime he'd get up to kick it outta the road it I d throw him. 50 he got mad an' got him a stick an' started beatin' it an' he said everytime he'd hit that handerchief, he called it handerchief, it'd throw him. An' he said it really happened to him, but he Jd:Lid;.n"D'tid kniotwhaifveitanwyuthzinagwthoitdeohwanitdh~rtchheiemfooonr wbehiantg itbrwiguhz.t", do you reckon?" 1:1.1:.J.1I1 dunno, but he said as soon as it, it just moved, muved across the road an' as soan as it moved over to the edge of the road~n' disappeared t his horse went an. Hut he didn I t go an home that night, he stopped at the neighbor's house an' stayed, nOt but now - it really happened to him because he told us about it." -U..;..!'I'hat was the name of the place?" MrsL,llIt was right down here where Alec liveSt ya know, Russell's boy, that lives across the branch - it's right along there." 11 TL:II'what's the name of that place'"/" Mrs:Hlt's just aIel Wright's creek, that's all I know.'1 TL:"Any other people have any - you kno" like that?" Mrs:"Ah, this where we live now is ah called the Cam Cove, Cam Cove. 1I LEF: "Nobody else ever had the same experience'llI l~rs:"Yep, probably did back then, but I was just so young back then, but I can remeber my Daddy tellin' that story." lb.:tt'f'Jell, you have any superstitions out here didn't ya't ~~hat about ~-Jhen the moon was full, like it is tonight?" !::1..:" I dunno about that, II TL: "Do they have any witches?" Mrs:"Yeah, they claim they do, the screech owls, ya know." TL:"Do "hat?" Mrs:"5creech owls, ya know, that holler." TL:"5creech owls?" tl!.!i:"Yeah, the old Indians, like his Daddy, the older ones back, uh - They used to believe thdt if you do someone wrong they could, uh,they could witch ia. They would corne to ya an I ya know like a screech owl, change yourself- -;;. this is how an' my sister's mother-in-law, before she died, we used to go up there a loVshe was a real old Indian, she wuz in her 80 ' s I guess. She couldn't speak English an'one night she woke me up, or I got sCdred, ani when I woke up I heard her makin' a noise in her room. She sounded like she was a chokin ' or sumpthin', ya know, she was makin' a funny noise. 1 thought she wuz dyin I , and when I yot up, uh, my brother-in-law tole me, said just go on back to the be9 an' said there's not nothin' wrong with Mama an' I says What's ~-Jrong'/with her?il said she sounds like she's dyin l , and he said that's just a screech owl he kaid. Now that's believin ' '1 l.J-;IlNow what did wour l"lama say, it's just an owl outside7 11 ~lIYeah, but she wu:J uh, in her sleep, she was, uh, workin , on someone see, workin t on somebody else see that she didn't like, 1 reckon. ~ "0p, your mother could put these make a spell on people. II ~t1Yeah, you know, .... II IJ..;llwhat would happen to people when they put a spell on them7 11 ~: 1l~Jell, they could make t em get burned or do anything. II J:.L..; "Get' ern to do things wrong?1I ~:"Yeah, there was an owl, there was an owl on , on one of their chimneys, up on a chimney that kept hullerin' an', uh, thpp wasn't real close kin to me, just about my cousin, I reckon. This man went out an' shot the owl off the chimney tcause he was keepin' him awake, ani he shot him ani whenever he fell down, he fell dOl-Jn the chimney, an' inside the house he burned h~s feet in the fire when he hit, an' when thdt wuz a'happenin' at the same time why there wuz a neighbor of mine that, uh, somebody said he wuz in bell over there ani they asked vJhat wuz wrong with him they said his feet wuz burnt .. They couldn't figure out how he burned his feet. So they figured that wuz him, see, , J.L; lI'vvas there only certain people that could do this'?" ~nYeah t just certain Indians It IJ..; "What'd they call them'I" Mrs:"Witch doctor's I reckon. All I know.Now Hayes calls it conjurin t , now he believes in that too an' like if she gets (speaking about the little girl she held in her la~, her daughter's daughter) stomach-ache she'll go to him and tell him that she's got the stomach-ache, ant he 111 just lay'er on his lap Bee an' he'll - I don't kno" "hat he says, but he'll say sumpthin' an' then he'll blow in his hand ant rub her stomach,an' when he tells her she's all right she'll go on. 12 50 1 reckon she believes in it so strong in it, or sumpthin I, I dunno. 1t I.L..: "He doesn't do anything like that, does he7" IVJrs: lIMy husband does, uh huh. He doctors her stomach when itts hurtin'." lb.: "Well, uh, what about when, this tale I heard about somethin I chasin I him down th Broad" It :1!..: "He wuz, uh, on his way home from prison, he served time in prison in Atlanta, and he wuz on his way home that night an' he heard he says it was a motor car camin I down the railroad, the rail~'oad tracks, and he said he just stepped asiue and waited for it to pass an' instead of it bein' afnotor car, he said it wuz a , looked like a dog, ant it had real h~gh legs in the back an' the front had little short ones sorta like his nose wuz in the ground J it wuz just like an animal. 11 lb.: "What did it sound like7" 1:18: I1A motor car like on a railroad. ItflHe wuz a' walkin ' by the railroad, he said he just fell duwn beside the, on the bank an' he waited till it passed, an' he went ujJ a little ways to the neighbor's house. He didn't wait for them to open the door when he knocked, he just went on in. He didn't go home that night .If After cornplet'iing thcils tale, it Was as though she'el run out of all past rernembefances, but I persisted and still got nothing along the lines of lies or tales. I then resorted to the old vein of doctoring in the old days and did stri~e upon a little information from her: lb.: "What did they dlil for doctors back thelll?" .t!!J..J,,:"They had ah, my Uncle wuz a docta>r,that lived u"p here, his name wuz Old man John Maney( must have been kin to Russell's wife). He wuz a real good doctor but, he wusn't a licenzed docbor, ya know what I mean." TL:" What sort of remedies did they have7" MR5 L:" All kinds of ole herbsaan' stuff ." TU" Like ah, let's just say for, ah, a headache7" MR5 L:"Mint, they had mint.You just crush li:t up in your hand, it's got a real strong smell an' jus put that on your head.You meke tea out of it too (for a fever). Mint tea aiB' some kinda ginger root." Next we seemed to have Once again run out of words so my eyes began to wander and I noticed a w~rd bunch of sticks oJn the bed with purple wads of flowering plants on them. We then got an explanation that her husband made blow gune and thses were the thietles used on the ends of the dargls used in the guns. In fact that was where Hayes was at toe time, out collecting thistles. He neVer came home that night and at 12 o'clock the next dey he still hadn't returned. We also talked about leatherbritches once again and also drying pumpkins the same way,(she had about ten large purnpkins in the living room). 5he also brought out en Indian mask Hayes had carved and told us about them. They made their liVing from tourist trade of blow guns, bows, masks, ect all which Hayes made himself. The next day was 5unday and the four of us went to the Wright's Creek Church up from Hornbuckles place and waited for services to end hoping that We could get some song or something of value before we left this area. The church was recently constructed abd a one room affair. When I approac~ed the frony door to take a picture a dog waddled out. The dress for the occasion was overalls, and no ties in sight. I did persuade a couple with a guitar to sing a song after services, he was' Ned's brother, one of the 5mith' s I I d talked to earlier and his wife. llhey sang a song they'd heard another group sing: "Cool Chilly Waters" J! o COOL CHILLY WATERS ------'" I :>~ -~''rl~ When that long line forms to cross old Jordan, \" L~')\u (:~,S\\, C) 00 And to this world I have said my last good-bye, \ ~---~._~-- I want Jesus to lead me thru the cool chilly waters ~\ ~e,,, \::' \",r,,\' (' t\" , ",J. ' And walk me to my home in the sky. \\ e....-._. l .~.-_-., I <J :c In that great beyond, on that last judgement day, With tender hands he'll wipe the tears from my eyes. I want Jesus to lead me thru the cool chilly waters, And walk with me to my home in the sky. When that long line forms to answer questions, And I need somebody to testify. I want Jesus then to be my witness, When I write my name in the sky. , \ \, \\ In that great beyond, on that last judgement day, With tender hands he'll wipe the tears from my eyes. I want Jesus to lead me thru the cool chilly waters ,/' And walk with me to my home in the sky. / LORD LIFT ME UP There are trials that come on every hand, And some times there hard to understand I just take the promise to the master's fold So that he will look down and lift me up; Take my hand precious Lord and lift me up Let me drink from that ever lasting cup Lift me up when my spirits seem so low Lift me up precious Lord I love you so. In Gethsamnie he prayed for you and me If it be thy will let this cup pass from me Not God's will to lead astray from that cup And today I know that he will lift me up. Take my hand precious Lord and lift me up Let me drink from that ever lasting cup Left me up when my spirits seem so low Lift me up precious Lord I love you so. Before we left to go back to Atlanta, I had one more lead, Carl lambert, a man who worked on the poverty program for the reseruation. We pulled up to his house on a mountain, quite moder~ a8 compared to those previously, and I found him on the roof patching a leak. He came down and I presented myself and he explained that he'd gone through simular experiences with some people from Pennsylvania. He invited all of us in, pulled up a chair and just began to talk. His talk was mostly about folklore, not it in general and I've only got what I feel helpful transcribed, though it is all interesting. Cl: "A few months back, ah, a cousin of mine got killed, shot down in the Birdtown Community,so he'd worked on the Nelson Amendment project with us ever since it started so, it's customary here in the mountaibs, the undertaker likes to bury the dead on the reservation, because each community has its own grave diggers an' they're kinde insulted if they don't git to dig the grave when somebody dies there.50 I thought it might be appropriate if some of the fellas who had worked with George, help dig the grave, so one of the fellas in the grave ~iggin' crew was a fell blooded Indian by the name of John Ucumber, not Cucumber but Ucumber. So it came dinner time an they'd had the grave partially dug an in the cemetary where they were di9Uin' the grave, there was a large a k tree, right in the center of that an the fellas had driven their cars an' left '~thar an they had their lunch in there, so somebody hollered dinner time, an they a~l started to go up to the tree an' eat dinner. Well about half way between the grave and where the ah, tree was they met a black snake. Well one of the fellas had an ax, an was a gonna kill the snak~n this John Ucumber said don't kill that snake said that's an evil spirit an if ya kill that snake sumthin' bad will happen to some of your close relatives and they'll be buried right close in this cemetary. Well, lawBeDce Murphy cut the snakes head off an all durin lunch hour, John Ucummer would mention the fact that somethin bad was gonna happen. Well, within about c2 weeks, Andy Chicerlilly's wife, course she died a natural death, an they burried her right close to where George was buried. Well, we thouUht possibly that was the omen that John was referin to but in about a couple mare weeks, George's son in law was shot an killed, in that same community. 50 now the comment that John UDommer had after that, he tells them all, see what I told ya, ya oughtn'd to killed that snake." Cl:" Up until 1932 you couldn't get a car within about 8 miles of where we lived." "My father ran a sItore an was post master up in the mountaibs, an all the supplies came in by wagon an the mail came in by horseback. And my Dad had to keep a claw hammer there in the store to, in the winter time wh.m they had to ford the river with the horses and many times the mail carrier's feet would get frozen to the stirrups so, an my Dad would have to get the hammer and beat the fella!s feet from the stirrups, so he could get '!lown off od! the horse." He goes on and on telling about the life back then and also goes into a history of the Indians. We ran out of tape in the middle of his talk and had to go back to study for tests. He has an open invitation for anyone to come and he is a vast store of folklore as he is now the historian for the Cherokee Indians. Janette Edwards and 1 lit out one Saturday momning toward White County Georgia, where she had located a "folk" who sang and played the guitar and banjo. I Was very anxious to heaL' him play for my own enjoyment as well as folklore collecting. We arrived after a quick trip, and driving up the dirt road 1 thoght she had really stumbled upon a good find until we actually got in fromt of the house. There was a T.V. antenna staved in the groung out by a rustic old wood shed, then 1 knew these people weren't as true to folk tradition as the Hornbucklea and the Lawsey family. His wife greeted us with curlers in her hair(curlers, something I realized was "civilized according to Russell's wife whom I could never imagine with such). Sonny was not at home, sd! we went out and ate then returned to find him waiting. We entered the house. It was once an old log cabd!n, now with a touuh of modernization, plus an addition on the back. They had only lived in it about five years and it'd been that way all along. The fireplace was brick, each brick was now painted oVer with a bright red, and the divisions in between were painted white, this created an unseal aspect of the place. The floors were even fake wood, a linolium with a fake wooden finish. The furniture was modern, but of lower quality modern, but there was e sign of the old life, a hole in the ceiling directly over the sofa where the old pot bellied stove must have been. They had a large gas heater, a baby crib, sofa, two chairs, TV and Hi Fi in the living room The wall decorations suggested a hint of folk, behing the sofa hung the traditional '~ast Supper' painting, to the left of it on the other wall was a pwcture of a praying Jesus, while on the other two wal$S hung their marriage certificate, a large picture of the class of '55 of Cleveland High School in \~ashingtom D.C. and on the other wall was Sonny's Honorable discharge from the Army. The walls themselves were of pine paneling, store bought type. Well, We made ourselves comfortable and Sonny didn't waste a minute and started playing his banjo. He sat in a chair by the front door, ana sang while his little baby screamed. Sonny had a hatchet face, thinning hair, on his pointed head. His side burns came ear lenght and he was dressed in work clothes: the usual green pants, a black sweat shirt, and boots. Ha wore two rings, a watch, an~ on his hands he had na nails for strumming. His right eye tooth was missing, as you could tell when he rolled back his head while singing. The quality of his playing while I was there seemed not too good. He seemed to play the same notes over and over again. Miss Edwards has the identical material on her tapes abd it is much better than mine because of my recorder's low quality. G Lam~rt as entertaining as the day is long, ;~, " '. ,; ", ' ,', " ,"'," ',' " " , ' __ ; ',.,' ',< _',". ""'" ,:'_:'i ',' were 'left bi>hlnd wllh the CHEll OKEES (dOl1/( with some of, his , our Many scalp), He designed and bullt seas enter- veral special machines at the than his col- plant. Among them wasa machine , .' for making whIp handles, II 'at TomoIeau, In March, 1966when the CllERkee County" a OKEES relented to his leaving, son wa rn to J. B. and carl took over as Director of Lambert. This little fel- the Nelson Amendment Project of s to ot of moving CAP in June, 1966. Alter getting in hi 'the Nelson Project off to an exsch came, Carl cellent start, Carl Is now Dlrat Oil I in Jack- octo'r of the Home Improvement then moved to Project. He S(ly s he really enin 1910 and joys Working with the trainees 'school ,for 2 ,on the Home Improvement Proeagain, backto gram and Is looking, forward to o and more getting much work done this year emware' was a~_:~epait:118:,_a",bt 'gf hom~s,on and another the reservation, The Lam- Some of Carl~s hobbles Include way from Cher- taxlderrm', blacksl"lthlng, carw) so in 1924 pentry, masonry, blrdwatchlng, y came. Carl nower growing, astronomy, Instai- >d sc ofallandcon- dian history, and we know coltinued high schOO InWhittierand lecting, since he could very well jJnlshed in Bryson City in 1929. start his own museum. Carl col- Laura Sw was the lucky lects lIU kinds of IOdlan and girl in CuI chose her mountain artifacts. CoWbells, to be h s carl Jr., Peg- stone' jugs, bottles (his wile's gy Ann llnd M bael, were born bobby) or as Carl S(lys, "the to them over tbe yeus. , dat/ldesl collection of Junk I've , In 1937, 1 took a Radio- ever seen." refrigeratl rse at Canton, ca'rI's interest in Indian his- He worked for some thne, tory is partiaily Inherited from. going to night school 4 years his father. who stirred his lmatakIng Machine Shop Practice. glnatlon, by talkIng about the hlsT~ e beilnning of World War tory wUh him. Alter his fathers IT saw Carl and J'amlly in Bal- death, Carl kept hIs books and thnore, Maryland, carl working records and kept, pursuing the at Glen L. Aircraft Co. ~obbY he bad begun many years as toOl des eer and at- before. . te J ns University , Yes, quite a feUer, this Carl. rS studYing electrical And MOWS more about the history of o~r ,1ncestors than anybody I've Mown. If you're wanting to know something, just ask Carl, and then settle down for ne some real entertainment. Ing rema 22 years. HUibillY Photos was started in 1951 at the, mouth of Lambert Brancb. carl ran his business until the CHEROKEES captured hhn In 1960 as maintenance supervisor. Some of Carl's talents , I r ;1 !: ,i ( \,., , ....., ' . .' '- A PDF transcript exists for this collection. Please contact an archivist for access Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions. As archivists, we acknowledge our role as stewards of information, which places us in a position to choose how individuals and organizations are represented and described in our archives. We are not neutral, and bias is reflected in our descriptions, which may not convey the racist or offensive aspects of collection materials accurately. Archivists make mistakes and might use poor judgment. We often re-use language used by the former owners and creators, which provides context but also includes bias and prejudices of the time it was created. Additionally, our work to use reparative language where Library of Congress subject terms are inaccurate and obsolete is ongoing. Kenan Research Center welcomes feedback and questions regarding our archival descriptions. If you encounter harmful, offensive, or insensitive terminology or description please let us know by emailing reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. Your comments are essential to our work to create inclusive and thoughtful description.