Gail Waterhouse interview with James Collins

The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. The audio of this recording is difficult to hear, this description is based on the transcript that is available upon request. James Collins starts by describing the difference between a ghost and a haint and recalling supernatural encounters at the school where he worked. He explains that he did not believe in ghosts until an encounter with his brother and that individuals born with a veil over their face can see ghosts. Then, he tells a story in which a womans ghost kills her childrens abusive stepmother. Collins remembers a haunted house near where he lived that had a picture of a woman whose eyes followed him. He states the only dead relative he has ever seen was his father in a dream, but that he has experienced deathbell visions that predicted the death of relatives. Next, Collins explains that it is possible to predict your fortune by scratching your hand on an oak tree. He also lists signs that predict seasonal change, including white squirrels, snakes, and the placement of birds on a tree. Then, Collins remembers a spell to curse ones enemies which involves putting eight grains of pepper, six needles, graveyard dirt, and black cat bones in a bag thrown into a creek. He also remembers when a woman used a curse involving spider legs to make a man act like a crow. He also explains that the ability to curse individuals comes with being a seventh child. The transcripts concludes with Collins listing herbs for spells such as beargrass, yellow sassafras, and butterfly root. James Collins (1924-?) was born in Thomaston, Georgia, where he lived until moving to Atlanta in 1949. He worked as a gardener and as a custodian at City of Atlanta schools. He married Champie Collins (approximately 1922-2014) and had four children. THE REPERTOIRE OF JAMES COLLINS: GHOST TALES AND SUPERSTITIONS by Gail Waterhouse Folklore 300 Dr. Burrison November 20, 1974 TABLE OF CONTENTS lfilMORA TES 1 Ghost Parties 2 Ghosts talking 3 George and the ghost 4 Alonzo jumping out the window 5 Ghosts moving furniture 6 Brother seeing ghosts 7 Ghosts talking at Westview Cemetary 8 Haunted house and moving picture 9 Seeing father in a dream 10 11Deathbell" 1 ! White squirrel "sign" 12 Man turned into a rooster by hoodoo TALES 1 First wife returns from the dead FOLK REMEDIES 1 Tonics 2 Sassafras SUPERSTITIONS I Difference in a ghost and a haint 2 \'lho are ghosts? 3 11Born with a veil" PAGE 2-3 3-5 4 6 6 7 7 8-9 10 11 11-12 14 8 14 14 2 5 7 SUPERSTITIONS 4 GhestS feel warm 5 Seeing gh@st<, betwe 6 Itching hands and 7 Snakes and sp:r-ingt 9 H@ed@e nr.epipe" 0 ise:venth child'! 11 Butter:t:ly roet and cont ..... PAGE 7 8 11 12 12 13 14 15 This paper is a collection of the folklore repertoire of James Collins. James is 50 years old and 0f a rural black background. He was born in Thomaston, Georgia (Upson County) in 1924 and lived there until 1949, when he moved to Atlanta. He now lives at 1833 Flat Shoals Road in southeast Atlanta. James is emplcoyed by the City of Atlanta Scheols as a custedian. He works primarily at Lakewood Heights Elementary School, where he claims most of his experiences with ghosts have been. I visited James on Oct0ber JO, 1974 t0 cellect his ''true" e~perii.ences with "haints". The Collins home had a warm atmesphere and James related his experiences to me as we sat around the kitchen table. Several other people were present including 11 Champie11 Collins (JBJlles' wife), Mary Ella Wind@m, and Bill Burnham. Alse, some of the Cellins grandchildren wandered in and eut of the reom. The additional listeners provided an audience which encouraged James to, perhaps, exaggerate and vividly narrate his steries. Before relating the stories, James explained that he had "hever believed in haints befere working at the school", but that he had heard many ghost tales as a child. These tales were teld by his mother as well as older members ef his family, such as his grandmother and uncles. Additienally, his brother had some strange psychic pGwer to "see haints11 as a result of being "b11>rn with a veil" James attributed his knc,wledge <if "h<>e d11><>" to his grandmother and father. He seemed te completely believe the superstitions he related, Alse, he implied that these superstitions were learned as a child on the farm. The interview lasted about 45 minutes to an hour in which James related approximately ten memerates @f experiences with gh0sts, @ne ghest tale, ten superstitiens, and two folk remedies as f@llews: Collector: Tell me the difference, what you were telling me about the difference between_a ghost and a haint. James: They sez a, well a ghest is, the difference in a ghost and a haint is ... well a gh@st is a rich man and a haint is a peer man. (Repeat) an that's de difference in 1em~ Collector: Why is there a difference? James: Why is dere a difference? Well ya see, if a-a haint well dey, what dey have dere parties upstairs-- an ghestes, dey have deirn a d@wnstairs. Cellect0r: Oh .. at the sche@l? James: Uh-hum, yeah. An' when I g@ upstairs, Iwent back upstairs one night an a dey--dey had a party up dere, and uh, dats when I, dats before I turned en de light and I seenem up dere playin around, havin' a party. An I ceme heme, ccme dere one evenin 1 en de way te werk, an ya knew when I get dere, dey tell me 'beut dis little girl, three year eld girl, get killed 2 an run over by a car... S0 de next day, 'b0ut two weeks after dat, dey had a party ... de ghostes had a party for her. An' I saw em .. yeah. I went upstairs to turn de lights on in de hall an I heard a noise, chairs a rattlin, dey wuz givin'' her a party, Se well, after dat, well I ceme back dmwn tewards de principal's office an he teld me, say "Oh, I just wuz imaginin' things". One night .. and se I went en an didn't werry bout it. But after dat, I ceme back dat next week and, uh, dey had a fundersterm, ya knew, an knecked eut all de lights, an dey wuz d0wn in de audit0rium playin' de piane, Se I went dewn dere an dere dey wuz. . Jus.t as I' started mut de deer, an de lights wuz mut, I wuz fixin t0 go 0ut de d<i0r, an de ghost told me, say, "Wait a minute!" say, "Let me out first!" An I stepped backt An, ef ceurse deres always been plenty ef em, ya knew, plenty e dat. Datole man, Alonzo (former custodian), he told me 'bout. em. He dead now! Collector: Ymu ever see his ghost? J allles: Naw! I never did see his ghost, but. dey say dey s g,mna give him a. party, dey told me, ya kn@w. After I gmt hurt befmre den, an uh, but, uh dey say dey gcmna. have. 3 him a party. I tell ya another thing bad ab@utJdat tee! When day have dat PTA mver dere, de teachers sometimes dey get ta havin' a meeting, dey stand around in de hall an talk an I tell em, I told de principal, I said, "ya hurry up an get em out a here cause de ghosts is genna 4 git mad." An' he said, ''Well, dcm t werry 'b,rnt it." But I kn@w, dey genna git en me, see!; Cause dey been stayrn' evertime, standin eut dere talkin'. I want dem to leave, cause after, if 1n dey stay tee leng, dey'd ceme down, fly down euta de walls jus' like bats. An' deyd git at me! An' se I perted it te de main office an dey sent a b!ily ,rnt dere, anether guy dat werk with me, named Geerge. An' he said it wuz nothin'. An' se, I heard him hollerin1 upstairs an I went up dere at 'im an he say tt deres a man upstairs, man upstairs!" An' I went up dere an' dere 'wasn't nethin 1 but .. a, big ghSt flyin' ar!J)und. An' s@ I teld em de next mlilrnin', I told de principal 1beut it an he said, ''Well, I tell ya, if George run", say, 11dat s g0@d as a burglar larm", say, "y@u take off behind him". (Laugh) Cellecter: Well, do they ever hurt yeu? James: Naw! Dey den 1t bether ya. leng as yeu dent b@ther dem, New if yeu ge betherin' dem, messin' round with dem, dey will. De ghestiest ting bout it is stayin I in dere with em. Now I learnt t stay in dere with de haints an' it I s better dan dem wines ... Dey 1s more dangerous dan de ghests is. Collecter: They talk te y0u though? James: Yeah, after you come to learn 1em, dey talk to ya. I didn't believe in ih@sts til I wuz w0rkin" dere a long time by myself, dats when I first started seein' 'em Now de onliest time dey talk to ya is when, is when ya git too cl0se to em. Well, one time when I wuz workin' in de cafeteria an before dey put dat other power line in dere de lights would ge out---se when de lights went eut dat night I started out den an dey say, 11Well, yeu can't git eut befere us, so you gonna have to wait." Se dey 111 talk to ya, dey den t say much to ya but de thing 'b@ut it is I ain't get much hair en my head new, an' a little less an I I'm gone! (Laugh) Yeah, dey '11 talk t11 ya. .. C@llecter: Are the ghosts Gf people that you knew? Ja.mes: \i(ell, seme of em, like ya see some ef em, like de kids what died an g0ed to school dere, what died, an some of dem ole teachers. Yeah! An' ole Alonzo, ya know I told ya I ain't never seen him but dey say he's comin' back Cellector: Do they talk to you abeut what s happened before? James: Yeah, dey tell ya whats happened way back yonder, years back---before dey ever built de new part on de building. Collector: What else do they say? 5 James: Well, dey say dat when dey build de new part, over dere where de kindergarten at, dey' s gonna have de little ghosts over dere, deY's gonna have a meetin' 0ver dere- for de children,. When ya see 'em, really see 'em, ya go in dere an' when ya pull dat switch, it's dark in dat building at night, an you can see eyeballs movin' round in de dark when ya pull de lights off, Dats when ya can see em goin' in dem rooms. Collector: What do they leek like? 6 James: What do dey look like? Well, I don t know, I can t describe it. But I tell ya one thing, dey got dem great big red eyes, white robes on, an dey'll fly right down by y0ur head jus like a big bat or somethin'----dats some of dem things dat are doin' it-- come right down by your head. I don ''t know 1bout it-- but I know one thing, deys dere--~ I have seen em dere! Collector: Didn t you say Alenz@ went through a. window one time? James.: Yeah, dey wuz--dey wuz tellin I me dat, see d'ese people say Alonzo wuz dere lockin' up de buildin', dat wuz when he wuz comin' in de momin' at 7:00. See, 7:OOis dark in de mornin , an I he come in dere. An' I think what he did, he must've got after one of em or run into one of em or somethin 1 , an I dey locked him up, cut him off from de main door. He plum went through de principal I s window, uh-hum, an' got c;mta dere. Cause if dey ever git mad with ya, dey can hurt ya. Collector: Do they ever move the furniture around or anything like that? James: Well, de only time dat dey really scared me, dat night,,. I wuz upstairs, ya know, havin I my break, 15 minute break, an I dey come at me. I wuz dere restin 1 , I wuz restin I my eyes, my eyes closed. Dey come in dat room, movin' de furniture around an when I lo.oked up, I seen him lookin' right down on me, with his teethies, long teethies, an' a old nose with no meat on it. I t00k off, an' dats de 7 onliest time I really got scared. I run down to de office to unlock de doer tc call for some help an I got down dere an' I couldn't unlock de door, so I went on out de cafeteria . dats just a scary times, you come to know em an' dey don t bother ya. Collector: Has your main experiences with ghosts been at the schoo'.i.? James: At de schoGl. .. I mean, I never did believe in 1em ya know, until I saw 'em. Ya know, dey say dat people wha.t wuz born with a veil over deir face .. I have a brother, he could see em. He. could be walkin' along with ya at night, dark at night; ya know, dey didn't have a heap of cars back.den, an you could hear him say, he say,"Git away, git away! Git away!" An' I'd say, "what you talkin' about?" "llaint, haint, haint!'" He could see 1em! Ya know, anybody born with a veil over deir face can. Now I never did see em But I C<imld tell when dey go along, you could feel de warm, dey feel real warm. You could tell when dey 1s dere, it feels real warm jus' like when ya go by a heater 0r s@methin . , I wuz tryin' to git a job out here at Westview Cemetary one time. Dey wanted somebody to fire de boilers~-~an you could go down through dat gate, de main gate, right down through dem dere trees dere, an' yeu could hear em talkin'. C@llector: Did you work @ut there l@ng? James: No, I never did git de job dere! Yam dent tell dem ghosts nothin 1 When he sez somethin you jus I go 0n bout your business. Gause ya !mow, dem ghosts is a funny thing. Dey said a man, well a woman first married ... years ago .. way back, years age, a w0man married an I a she had sem.e chulins, three or f0ur chulins, small kids. An' she died. an. de man, her husband, married another woman, to be deir stepm0ther. An 1d.e stepm0ther beated on de chulins sc much, <lat I d0nt !mG>w, de chulins wuz hollerin1 an gein en. She wuz whoopin 1 em all de time---who@pin' em up, beatin em up. An' dey say ae chulins mama c0me back one--an come back de next time, dey say she come back an she Slapped dat weman 1s head clean through de wall . killed her. So y0u dant tell dem gh0sts What you ain't gonna do,= what yeu is g0nna d@. C0llecter: Why do you think they come back? James: Huh? Dey don't never leave . dey, see, dey ghosts don't never leave. Dese folks dat die, dey aint gone n0where. Dey walk around, dey1s walkin' around now. Dey not gone. I tell ya, if you wanna seeem, ya wanna really see em, yougo out to any of deseb:i.g.cemetaries out dere tween twelve and one oclock ... you111 see em. You ge out dere yourself, don't go out dere all "plannmg" t<D git to see Collectr: And y<1>u dont remember any stories from when you were little? . .James: Well, dey say dere wuz a eld haunted house . an' dey never 8 9 would let us see or go up dere. Dat ole house, you could see em movin' around up dere at night, with a light. We used to ask rrry mama what it was and she'd say "dats nothin but a ha.int up dere!" Collect0r: Was the house near where you lived? James: That's right. It was up on a hill above our house. Wasnt nobody livin' there, hadnit been for years.' I remember, I never did go up dere, .ya see, .we didn t go up dere cause Mama told us not to. The onliest time I.remember, dis woman wuz watchin' me, de ghest wuz watchin me . ya know dese pictures what wuz drawed? N0t what ya take with de camera, dey be dpawed---an I a I wuz gi vin '' dis here, her husband, he wuz deaf an I dumb an I he got sick, I wuz ta.kin' care of him, givin' him his medicine. Anytime I'd go in dere to give him his medicine, I 1'd go dere by dat picture, his wife's.picture. An' you could see her, she fo.llowed me right r0und t@ de bed. C@llector: With her eyes? James: Her eyes, yeah. But the whole picture would move, her face would mcive, . I wuz supposed to give hini his me4cine at a certain time but I wuz out dere eating pecans und.er de tree an I I forgot, runnin I late,_, an uh, when I come in dere, she wuz lookin' down Uta dat picture, lookin' right at me! Collector: Was that her ghost in the picture? James: Yeah, dat's what dey said it wuz ... 10 Collector: Did you ever see any of your relatives after the died? James: Well, I seen my daddy. I ain't seen any mere <>f em. My brether wuz beatin I my mama up it be s in a dream, it comes in a dream. He wuz beatin'' my mama up, an' he (father) come up 'beut .dat time, an' had a big stick, an' wuz whoepin' en him. I jumped up outa de bed, an my wife sai<;t, "Where's yeu gein ?" "Papa I s beatin en my brether~ (Laugh) Yeah, yeu can see em, dey 111 come back. C0llectsr: Y0u see .em in yeur dream? James: Yea!;l, yeu can 'see 'em in yeur dreams. Well, uh, dat s de way yeu see em, It's not a dream; it's kinda like a. visien .. " Collecter: Have yeu ever had other visions? James: Me? No, I seen a leta things, a lota signs an all. 'Collecter: What kinda signs? James: A lota signs, jus' like a sign, I can tell ya jus' as geed when it1s gonna, jus like somethin' s gonna happen. Collector: Hew do you tell? James: Hew do I tell? I have a deep seund in my head, rings jus like a telephehe . sounds way up in yeur head . dats what dey call a ''.deathbell" . Collector: That's when somebody's gonna die? James: Yeah, right at de time! I tell ya, de other night . dis my wife's cousin, de one dat got killed with de screwdriver . over dere @n Peters Street I wuz layin I dere in de bed, den--an I I heard dat "U~h-h-h-m" an' shore nuff after a few minutes she heard.tell 1beut her c@usin.,.Her 0ther ceusin called her on_ de phone, said, ".Cousin 'Champie, I want yeu to c0me ever, semebody done killed my boy!0. 11 Collecter: And you had heard it in y0ur head? James: Yeah, beforehand! Like around when my sister died, I heard it den. When she went, I reckon it be_ beut twenty minutes_, .maybe fifteen minutes an de phene: rang; _ I can tell_ yeu when somethin_ s gonna happen er -somethin Is already doaehappened, Collect@ri Are they ever the sign f good things? James: Well, I can tell, between de letters an' I.th,, de_f'act dat - I'm gonna git some m<1>ney--de left hand it_ches., ,'it itches an ... when ya scratch it, scratch it on a @akwood. Doat scratch it 0n a pine, it 111 thre,w it off;., If ya right hand - itches, leek out! Dat means ya gonna git in trouble, You _ genna either git sGme bills or due bills er somethin'. other werds, yeu gonna git a letter, Cellecter: What kinda w0ed can yeu scratch it on to make it ge away? James: Oh, yeu can't make it --it ain't gonna go away. Collector: vmat other signs have yeu seen? James: ... 'bout dat white squirrel, now dat wuz truly white .. De way I noticed it, dere wuz lets of squirrels around dere, but de reason I knowed it wuz a white squirrel, de reason we payed it some ttention--de birds jus kept flyin 1' round it, jus kept flyin' round--jus like birds fly round a witch. Dey jus kept flyin 1 round an I I said, "I wonder - ---- - ---------------------------------------- 12 what dem is?11 Meet ef de time I think_ dat 'bout a ~nake, see, but it wuz a white squirrel. I told her (Champie), I said, "Lo@k yonder, look yonder!" Mrs. Waterh,mse said it's rare-but it must be rrcighty rare cause I hunted squirrels all my days up an d0wn de creek, across de creek, an' dats de first un I've seen. Collector: What's that a sign 0f? James: ,.,Oh, ya see, de things wuz changing. Dat wuz jus fore de President got killed, jus' 1 fere de President get shot, Ya see, every time ya see s@methin , that s a sign it means semethin i ;,' Cllecter: Have. you ever seen any others (signs)? James: De onliest thing,.,omliest signs I seen is, uh, snakes, snakes ... if you ever noticed a snake in de springtime, He dent ever ceme @uta dat hole if it's freezing ... People think he crawls right out, right den, but he d,in 1t. He sticks his head up 'b0ut a hand high an he takes 1beut seven days before he c@me out. Collect@r: Why <lees he do that? James: Well, dat lets ya know when it I s time to plant cottem,,, dere ain t gonna be n0 more frest .... Dere ''s leta ways to tell 'bout spring, Anytime like it is now, like 81, how hot, don't pay dat no attention. Dem birds is sittin' middle way in de tree,. watch em, If dey sittin' middle way in de tree an' he say, "did-it, did-it, did-it!" , donlt let it fo0l ya, don t let him fool ya . ,don t put your winter clothes up. Nah,,,he's sittin' dere lyin' 'bout it 13 or somethin. But now when ya do put your winter clothes up, wait til he get way up dere at de last limb, way up high, at de top, last limb, an I he start to hollerin . Dats springtime. Collector: You believe in hoodoo? James: Oh, yeah--you got a l@t of hoodoo s. You kno,w, I jus 'bout, I think Im goin' in dat business myself. Me not bein ' scared of ghostes or nothin 1 Dey say ya gt ta go eut in a graveyard an dont carry nobody with ya, an carry a stocking, an git some dirt.out of de grave--right around where de head is . Bring it back home, an I anybody ypu wanna get rid of, run crazy, or run away, use it ,,n em You take dat graveyard dirt, an' de person you wanna run crazy, go out an' git his track; If he's barefoot pr got on a shoe, it dont make no difference . Take his track up an put eight grains of pepper, an six needles, dat you sew with, an put dat i;raveyard dirt-:.ya. gotta have de.graveyard dirt. An I den, .take a. cati. citch a bla.ck cat ,real black ca,t . DEm, put him in s0me water, catcllhim alive an tie him where he can t jump cout an' put him in sli>me hot boiling water. An' de bhes dat come to de top, dats _de ones ya take out an put em in de saek. lien ya throw it in de water, de runnin' cre.ek water, an' dat sack 11 go up de creek, an. you can use it. u.Y@l.l can put a spell on somebody James: You know, I seen dis b@y down dere in Columbus ,an' dis ole woman said, she say, "Son, befere de sun g<D dwn tomorrow evenin 111 , she say, 11y0u gonna be crowin 1, an 1 walkin' on your knees jus 1 like a ro0ster." An' shore nuff, dat lady, she done somethin', she fixed up s@methin', seme kinda stuff, an I used it on him. I met him c0ming down de street--talkin 1 1bout Q-O-O-0-O-h-h", an I said, IIWhat s de matter with you?" She 1d run him crazy! Collecter: What 1d she use, the same thing? James: Na.w--,'1mat she do, she burned dat "Fi weed" an 1' it smelled real bad. An' she catched it an' bottled it up, an put a top. on it. An' what she d0 den, she catcheda spider an' cut his foots off, an' put it in dere .. , Den she called his name, say, "J-o-h-n! J-o-h-n! 11 , an it happens Cellector: What is she, a witch or somethin 1? 14 James: Yeah, .. you gotta be, uh, dat come between de seventh child ... anybody dat got seven chulins, it .. gotta be tween de seventh child, Collector: Can you make goed spells? James: I use dem herbs for dat. Collector: Good spells? James: . You git some mullet, beargrass, scubby grass an make tonic out of it ... Gather up all dem herbs, Dey'd use dat scubby grass an I make tea out of it,,. Sassafras, dat s a tonic an anybody can drink it .. you can't drink de white kind, cah 1t drink no tea outa dat, it'll run ya blind 15 Use de yellow .. Jallles: I tell ya de one I liked, always liked to git wuz dis here, what ya call, butterfly root. Anytime I see it .. what ya do is y<ilu pull it up,wash it off; break it off, an put it in your pocket, An' yeu'lLalways git some money In, conclusion, this collectiori proves the existenc~ 0f . a dynamic folklore of ghost tales and superstitions originating in a black rural cemmunity er central Georgia, In the case of JaJnes Collins, t~is belief system has been transplanted into his . ,present urban environmentin Atlanta. Apparently, he continues to have the same beliefs from his childhood, and they are operating in a very interesting way. Through his experiences, James uses his beliefs to explain what he can t understand. Most of the previ0us superstitions probably originated as etiolegical beliefs for the black farmers with little education. Als0, many of James experiences with. 11ghosts and haints" c0uld be explained as mere "bumps in the night", while others are quite unexplainable. Nevertheless, these beliefs and memorates or tales have entered an oral t~adition thrcugh James' frequent telling of them. And in the realm of folklore, we shGluld not ask questions, but only listen and enjoy A PDF transcript exists for this recording. Please contact an archivist for access. Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions. As archivists, we acknowledge our role as stewards of information, which places us inaposition to choose how individuals and organizations are represented and described in our archives. We are not neutral, andbias isreflected in our descriptions, whichmay not convey the racist or offensive aspects of collection materialsaccurately.Archivists make mistakes and might use poor judgment.We often re-use language used by the former owners and creators, which provides context but also includes bias and prejudices of the time it was created.Additionally,our work to use reparative languagewhereLibrary of Congress subject termsareinaccurate and obsolete isongoing. Kenan Research Center welcomes feedback and questions regarding our archival descriptions. If you encounter harmful, offensive, or insensitive terminology or description please let us know by emailingreference@atlantahistorycenter.com. Your comments are essential to our work to create inclusive and thoughtful description.