Linda Lovett interview with Mr. and Mrs. Burl Williams, Abraham Dickerson, Frank Walker, Alphie Cockrill, and Moses Sides (part two)

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If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. This is the second part of a two-part recording. The interview starts in the middle of a song sung by the Antioche Baptist church of Christ choir. They sing a few additional songs. The recording skips a few times during different songs. At minute 39:07, Moses Sides talks about his experience hauling logs to the timber mill with his brother. He also recalls when he found salvation, waiting for a sign from God to join the right church, which turned out to be Primitive Baptist. A few more unnamed interviewees join the conversation as Sides discusses how he got married to Josephine Lettie Wade and build his house, which he expanded and renovated over the years. He ends with a story about dealing with a county judge to purchase land. There is a pause in the recording. At hour 1:04:49, Abraham Dickerson talks about chilling milk using cold spring water. He expresses how challenging it was to retrieve water, especially compared to modern-day chores. He claims that modern women complain much more than they did during his childhood. He recalls the outdoor fireplaces used as ovens and lack of cooking utensils. Dickerson also discusses home sanitation and the first glass windows he saw. Dickerson tells a story about two enslaved men who he refers to using derogatory language. He talks about remedies, including catnip tea for babies, whiskey, quinine, and various roots. One old remedy, calomel, was the cause of many deaths. As a child he was prescribed chewing tobacco to cure a skin condition. He concludes by explaining how oxen are used in farming. At hour 1:32:55, Alphie Cockrill talks about planting vines and corn. She then discusses additional remedies, including tying comfort roots around childrens necks to prevent them from getting sick and making snakeroot tea to remedy colds. She recalls a riddle about hens and the games she played as a child. Cockrill also talks about boxed suppers prepared by girls and bid upon by boys who would also receive a date. Cockrill discusses Easter egg hunts and methods used to dye eggs. Abraham Dickerson (1892-) was born in Alabama. He worked as a farm laborer and married Viola Dickerson. Frank A. Walker (1919-1975) lived in Winston County, Alabama. Moses Thomas Sides (1882-1972) was born in Alabama to John Ruben Sides (1850-1923) and Rebecca Ann McCollun (1849-1937). He worked as a farmer. In 1904 he married Josephine Lettie Wade (1884-1969) and they had four children, Edgar Newman Sides (1906-1987), Pernia Sides (1908-1965), Eunice Sides (1914-?), and Mamie Sides (1919-?). No biological information has been found for Alphie Cockrill or Mr. and Mrs. Burl Williams. Informant: Mr. Abraham Dickerson, Haleyville Alabama Interviewer: Linda Lovett, Spring 1967 C11 A) Mr. Lovett: O.k., you can begin any time your ready ( cleers throat) 'cause it's on and ready. Mr. Abraham Dickerson : I ah I think rrry best way to express it is like I was writing a book Mr. L. Yeah go right ahead yeah Mr. D. You think that'd just be about it? Mr. L.: Yeah, go right ahead yeah that's good. Linda Lovett: Uh-huh. ~1r. D.: Having had the privilege of living in Winston County seventyseven years, I think I have eh the abilities uh to uh tell some of the things that happened in the eerly days of the settlings of Winston County. The roads were almost nonea rock pile one Yay and a sand bed the other s'about all we had. And the ( clears throat ) uh manners of working the road- we had no no uh tools to work with except uh just a hoe, weed hoe and uh a plow and the mules, plow out the water ditches with. Our bulldozers wes a piece a plank about seve six or seven feet long, with a hole bore close to each end and in this hole was a a hickory width that was cut down just below the ground to give it a 2 large end that wouldn't pull through the hole. We'd push the top end uh this width thru that hole and twisted it and tied it around the pole about the same length of the board, some six feet long. And two to 1lree men took hold of this pole, little pole and we pulled .eh. trash and dirt out of that ditch and rakes it up Mr.L.: Uh-huh. Mr.D.: in the road with that little ...we called it a dray. That's uh ...~ "~ abouhthe.manner of our road work, all we had to do with it an9 of course, eh .with that that . small amount we'd of tools to work with, we couldn't keep a road in much shape. But there wasn't much wear and tear on the roads. There wasn't much travel, mighty little. But anyhow, that's all that's that's the method of working the road the earliest that I can remember. Of course, gradually improved The first improvement, now, on roads or any, any try, any any indication of tryin' to improve the roads happened when I was probably eight years old. And that is, in my memory, now. There's a old Brother Gibson lived in the east end of the county and he was appointed or elected, whichever they did when I don't remember which, but he was appointed to... to help to open up a way to for better roads in Winston County. And I well remember his method. And it was a very silly thing until you saw it and studied it. He carried with him to the school houses I 3 about, came to our schoolhouse, a half-a-galihn or a five pound lard bucket, was what he demonstrated with. And he had that little bail ~handle-7 and that bucket bent good and tight, to when he pulled it over there and it caught in the airs ( ? ) that helt it, that h'it would stand anywhere he put it, uh up or down, straight over or er down on the side. And he'd sit that little bucket down ( pauses) and uh show that, and uh measure it, had a measuring string and he'd measure that bucket bail. Had it sitting sitting straight up over the top like the hill, a hill. He'd measure that and then he'd turn it down on the side, of the bucket, lay on the level, and he'd measure it and he'd say "Now you see, he's just the same distance around the hill as it tis over it." L.l.: Hmmrn. Mr.D: Now that's the first demonstration we ever had ofhe's .rell Mr.L.: Hmmm. L.L.: Hmmm. Mr.D.: Uhhh and then, then he went on and then he had some more to say about it. He said .1 You notice cattle;'theyuh they won't ever go straight up over the hill, they always make a road around it. The ahThey won't, tha tha they won't free reign cattle had their will to make their trails and they never go straight up a hill and straight down it. They 4 they they'd circle it and gradually come out around. Even if was three times that fa:r, they'd come out.uhuhon the top, but they wouldn't go straight up it, because uh they just uh I reckon they have some kind of an instinctive knowledge, seems like, to do that. Well he went on an and to my own knowing and remembrance now, when thetnan built him a uhbegin to fix tObuild a house, he had some neighbors way over the hill yonder and instead of trying to find out and look him out a road, they listened for the old rooster to crow. Or the cow bells "cross the hill. They knowed John lived over there. And they cut their road out right just straight- to that cow bell or to John's chickens, where they crowed. They didn't go on an-and hunt around and see where the best lands laying, best ways to cut the road. They went straight to John's, ( laughs) no matter how straight it over~he hill, that's the way they went. When the uh fields was fenced in and a man started and uh plowing the fields, he either took the fence road, no matter how straight it was up and down, his rpws went with the fence. Or if there'~was a road going by the side of the field, whichever way that road run, he'd run his rows. Well, aft-er uh this ~ old Brother Gibson, I won't never forget h~, he was an old Baptist preacher. After he demonstrated and explained some things about that, folks went to lookin' around the hills an-an and walkin' and steppin' and changed all the roads in Winston County within about three years, it took about three years. L.L.: Hmmm. 5 Mr.D.: There's nearly every road, and I can show you ta- welL uh I guess fifty at least, in around Devil Springs ah that uh was changed duduring the next three years. And what a wonderful improvement they was, that was over the other.bll' then when it come to building our houses, no man hired a house builder. They made a house raising, they called it and they cut their logs and had 'em ready. Set the boys out or went out themselves allover the community to ,ask folks to a house raising. There's log houses all of it, and they asked folks to the house raising and they uh would respond, folks helped one another uh, they was linked up in a yay they almost had to, and they lo~edto, they wanted to.' And there'd be anywhere from ten to twenty-five men at this house raising. That ( clears throat ) uh the man that went out or the boy that was~sent out to invite 'em to come to the house raisin', that's what they called it, a house raisin', was strictly instructed to get four certain men, they knew their men. Anybody was invited, everbody was invited . to come to this house raisin', but there was four special men that they knew that could carry uh' what they call carry up a corner. That corner had to be notched dOlm to Where the . the-th .. notch would fit over what they called the.,saddle that they bladed out ,on the end of that log. That notch had to fit exactly 'on there or that ole log would just rock this way, if one corner's deeper than the other. And they always, in every community that I knew about, they was at least four men 6 invited and, if possible, they'd be there. And I~ seen them stand up on the corners of that house, with one foot on this, on the log on the right, that went, I'll say goin' west and then one that went north and south and the other foot up on that. And uh the other feller was standin I down there and they hold their axes lile that on a certain slant on uh . to that notch, er uheach man was holdin' his axe. And they'd look at one another. And they'd cut that notch and I'd I'll say this, eight times of every ten, when they got that notch cut and uh dropped that log over, h'it ud just fit that just as smooth and pretty, It wasn't no rock in it. Now, other men couldn't do that,that wadn't trained to do it. They'd just hit this rock and they'd have to turn it back and notch it again and then put it back L.L.: Hmmm. Mr.D.: and direc-direc-directly one corner be deeper than the other. But those men that was trained to do that, uh they could, I'll say eight times out of ten that when that log slopped over on that saddle, they called it a saddle, that they they tapered off this-a-way, then that-a-way and then, that notch hoOked right over that to hold it and the then they let it down, it ud, it ud be a small crack in the middle. Well, when that uh house was raised, the next thing was to cover it. And it wasn't covered with uh asphalt shingles, ner it wasn't covered",,, ':. with tin. It was covered with boards made with ",hat~s called 7 a frow, split out of big white oak timber, sawed about two and two and a half feet long. And a frow, a little piece of iron, was drove in then with a hanle L handle.u and it was prized worked and there was board makers 'at could make a thousand and two thousand a day of them little boards and you coUldnft tell one hardly from the other one when they got it done, either. And when you put 'em up there and went to nailin' on thelll, they just fit just as good as ever saw shingle as you nearly saw. L.L.: Uhmmm. Mr.D.: And tho-those buildings was covered with boards entirely, !l, I say not one in ten that I knew in all the community, of course I didn't have a large radius ~o uh uh see in and go over like we would now, and travel, but all that I ever knew of had no to~, I mean, no loft in it. No no ceiling overhead. The -naked boards was just up there where the rafters come ~ together. And just so woUVt turn the water was all folks cared about, it jusr turn the water ... Well, when they build it, got that house builded and got the top put on it, they hewed down two sides of it and left the other sides round. When they go1lthe two sides hewed down, a little flat place on I it, they split some more long boards, probably four feet long and uh sealed the eracks up uh from end to the other build uh to just over those cracks. And then folks felt like they had a party good house, of course now I'm talkin' about the furtherest 8 back, I aintt talkin about that that didn't last so long til folks got to where that uh theytd build double houses their way and hallways between tem Theyts all logs, of course, for years and years, for there wasntt a saw mill in, Inl say, in-nin twenty-five miles of the average uh community, where they built it. There wasntt no such thing as a sawmill. And they had to split, they split what they called lat~ and ~ call it the deckin~ to go on a house, to put the roof on. They just split what they call lath', pieces about eight feet long and about four inches wide, one inch thick and uh the boards uh-the they just lapped over one, the-them from one to another, they was nailed to, and between them on the inside you could see the lapped boards about six inches, like they did shingles, after they got to cuttin' shingles. But it was boards all together, split with men t s hands and we had plenty of timber to make it out of, which thing we couldn't do now because we ain't got the timber. But thatts how they split it. (pauses) And then later on and an-another thing ltd like to mention is that ill of those houses ~s built dmm yonder under the steep hills. Why? because of water. Because wells, dug oI~, II ..J.r wells, ner ~' wells was unknown. One maybe in fif.,Jramilies of this in Winston County had a dug well in nineteen and sixty. Built to get water out of, and by nineteen and it drops on down, eh in nineteen and sixty-five, uh, on down to nineteen and forty-five, and fifty, they begin to drill wells. And uh an abundance of wells begin to be drilled allover the land. But prior to that, the uh houses were all built dOwh here, at the foot of a hill. L end of tape J 9 Informant: AbrahB.lll Dickerson Interviewer: Linda Lovett, Spring 1967 Abraham Dickerson: got some things about }k. Lovett: Okay. Here we go. Go right ahead. C-11 .B A.D.: In. in getting your water, you went to the spring and got your water, and sometimes, you had to tote it up fer a long hill, and rough, very rough to get your water. You didn't have a refrigeator ( refrigerator) to cool your milk, but you toted your wa , your milk to the spring an' set in the water to cool it, keep it cool, keep it from , tha~ the only way you had of doin' it. And that water had to ceme up, if you didn't get below the spring, a few could build, find a buildin' place, in,uh, below a spring where it was to tote d01m hill, but ni'Jt many. Host of it had to come up some part of th' hill. An' uh, wooden bucket, that was as heavy, three times as heavy as the buckets we have now, the bucket was as hea~J almost as the , as the water , as a bucket full of water of our metal buokets; big thick heavy cedar buckets. An' then, when it was filled with water, it was a right smart little task to tote. But, it had to be toted, up the hill an' that milk had to go do"m under the hill and get in that spring, to keep it. The uh... th' many people soon learned to bring a tub of water up at night an' set the milk in that tub, rather than have to go ( giggles) next mornin' before breakfast and get it out 2 of the spring. We did, at my home. And there's mE~ thing's that, uh, was pertainin' to to carryin' your , the water and things, almost to~miserable to mention. Fer instance, let me say to the housewives of to-day that you don't know what hardships is about, ~ou don't know what hardships is. Suppose thatlYOU take, ah, yer two year old child by the hand, you don't wanna leave it at the house to go and bring in that water, by itself. An' you take it to the hand an' carry it down there an' you git that big bucket of wa~eF in one hand an' the little feller don't wanna climb tack up that hill. He's got to be toted on 9ne arm an' that big bucket of water on the other. S'not like turnin' the fawcets of to-day an' catchin' your water there, but , but it was tottote an' the child was to carry with it, because , a lot of times, an' certain circumstances, of course that wasn't all ... , every hou , home wasn't, didn't have that problem at one time, but some time in life they did have it. And it was a real burden, just th' water was a bigger burden today , in th~e days than .. than all the chores of a home to-day, no question about it, just the water alone, gettin' the water there, to supply that home was a bigger chore than all chores put together that women have today, and d'it don't care how many you put there, it won't, it won't out do the the . gettin' that water to the house. An' uh, they churned their milk with a stick , with a dash , they call it a dasher. A little sourwood stick o usually was peeled an' a bore , little hole tore onto two flat pieces, uh, whittled out timber about fout an' five inches long an' that little dasher was 3 what you churned in the churn with your hand. An~ it took thousands of strokes an' that hand to churn that milk. Then, it was to tote an' put in the spring, you , to cool that buttermilk off before it was fit to eat. After it was warm enough to churn, it it is not, ah, not fit to eat hardly. H'it 'as to tote to that spring an' cool before it was fit to eat. An' then, the other thing that~ we could mention that was ah , heavy chores for the household of those days, but folks bore it with patience and you hardly ever heard a grumble. I hear ten grummles (grumbles) today about what what women have to do in the house, with all the facilities they've got, that , to work with, electricity an' that put together, I hear ten times more grumblin' about what they have to do than I ever heard folks in the days of rolf childhood, eh, when we had those burdens that I've ah just been mentioning. An' I think if we had to go back there, all of a sudden,inow, that they'd be suicides so fast that you couldn't hardly bury 'em. (laughs) Linda Lovett: (laughs) A.D.: Befor (laughs) I think that, I believe that would, that folks had a, had a started in about three or four or five days, they , of it , they'd say "I ain't gonna do it." Now, their cookin , utensils, there comes uh, one of the other burdens that we shouldn't never forget, I won't forget it while I live. My mother and all the people that lived about her her her, ah, associates were all near about in the same box about cookin' utensils. What did they have to cook on? They had a big open fire place. July, August, and September and all the year around, they had a big open fireplace. They had a, what they called a oven.,., er, l"Tge , steel, pie ce of rnaterial that, 4 'bout twelve an' fourteen inches across, with a little legs about t",o or three inches long, on the bottom side of it, an' then, they had lead (lid) that set over that. They fixed their bread dough an' put it down tn that oven. Hit (heat) that lead (lid) on the fire ah as it was burnin' , back behind the skillet, raked out coals an' put the~ skillet on it an' then, put that, uh, lid over it with a pair of hooks. Had a hooks made to hook in the eye, set it back over that, an' no matter how hot the day was, ah , that cobk~' had to be done, over that open fireplace, or that blaze a-lappin' up there, keepin' that fire , an' all those coals. The only chance to cook, now, that's what they had, eh I can remeber a . , of course, a long after a while it, ah , folks got stoves, but I'm talkin' about th', th' furth~rest back that I know. I suppose that that's mmre interesin' to us now than some things later on. Ant uh, the-they cooked their bread, they cornbread or the biscuit bread, or any bread that they cooked, on that skillet, an' when that was cooked, if they's somethin' else to cook, that bread was laid away, in that same skillet, had to ba used, they called it a skillet, had to be used, or a oven. I believe the oven was, ab , didn't have any handle on it, an' skillet did, but body of it was made exactly alike. An' they cooked everythin , they cooked, almost on that, had to cook it on that one pan. An' eYen it come to boilin', they had a steel kettle, they called it a kettle, eh hold a gallon to a gallon an' a half. Ant that 'as to set on the coals, in that open hot fireplace, that was to rake out some coals 5 an' to sit it there anI to do all the boilin', ah ah, on that one steel kettle, right facing , uh , that, that uh that hot fireplace. Mr .L: llmm. A.D.: Now, try a woman or two out now to , with that an' see what'll happen. (laughs) Reh they won't be much, much cooked, I tell you, it won't be cooked. (laughter) You'll eat somethin' raw i' you that, it'll not be cooked. But, they did, an', an' they didn't grum'le, they didn't grum(le nowhere as bad as, as the good women of today grum'le. They cooked their food on that open fireplace. In the winter time, it wasnlt so badAn' their coffee was bought green, like they gathered it off a the bush, in the coffee countries, and shipped it here, green L.L: Hmmm. A.D.: .Even not husk(d. An' you parched that coffee in that skillet, that same skillet you pookedCthat bread in, you parched your owo coffee, an', anI that green coffee, in that skillet an' you had a paddle, about as big as my hand anI the handle met about three feet long, that you stirred that coffee as it parched. Ant when it was thoroughly parched, then you poured it up an' . an' in some kind , first let it cool good, an' put in some kind a vessel. AnI I have known people, now, notnot. , anI it wasn't general, but lIve knowo people to beat that coffee all thk way they had to git that coffee ready, what we call ground, an' ready to make coffee, was to beat 6 it in a , tie a little ra , in a little rag , tie, ah, it up in a little rag an' put it on the hearth an' take th' hammer an' beat that coffee up till it was fine enough, in that little rag, an' to pour in th ' , in their coffee pot to make coffee. Now that wasn't general, understand, I don't mean that , that wasn't a general . , but I've known a few that didn't have th' coffee mill ~ an' course , a lotta folks, an' I , fer back as I can remember, had that little coffee mill, some folks did, most 0' folk , a little coffee mill that you turn with you hand, an' little hopper about that big, hold a cup full,'as big level cupful of coffee. An' poUr it in that, an' just take your hand an' grind it , was a , that t~s a uh steel grinders in there, that ground it instead of rock like a mill. They's little steel grinders in there an' you ground that, helt your cup under it an' a , under, you an' ground your coffee. L.L: ffimam hmm. A.D.:You could hear that coffee grindin' of tha mornin', fast as a, somebody's home, you know, you hear tht go whirrrr-rrr-rrr-rrr (laughter) HEY, you're gonua have coffee fer breakfast, , I hear the coffee mill rftnnin'l ( laughs) Well, the meat was fried in that skillet, that same skillet that I'm tellin' you about, cooked th' bread an' parched th ' coffee ahh there , that meat was fried in that same skillet, that's the average, what folks had an' I'm talkin' about th' earliest 7 days, now, that's whE!t they hs.d, was a skillet. They, uh, they's always a division, s'far as that's concerned. They's some was farther advanced than others, 'ats always been so, will always be, At that s~e time, scattered, there was folks that had better utensils, but I'M talkin' about th' earliest days. Uh, thay ground that little tad of coffee, I've ground it a many a , ohh think of the little mills full, an' I liked to. The kids, you know, they'd get , you'd have to stand up in a chair, you know, an' reach that , reach that handle there, an' grind ithat coffee, I lLked to grind it. That's somethin' that I could do, y'know. 1've ground a-many a , a-many a mornin' s coffee for breakfast. Welluh ,they didn't have uh uh, refrigeator (reHigerator) nor they didn't have uh, anything but wha;t they called an old fash.f ioned cupboard. That cupboard, uh, was made outta about half inch lumber by hand, in the home, ...most of the men made their own, in their own home. And they covered that, one of the doors with tin, just common block tin. An' then, they punched little holes in it, little bitty h~les in it with a nail just enough to go through, that flies couldn't go in there, but it could give the stuff in there air L.L: Unhunh. A.D.: . and that's what you had. Now, then, when it comes to sanitation in the home, we had none, I'll give you a little history of the sanitation we had. I don't remember till at least I was fourteen years old eVer seen a house with glass winders in it. No body had a glass winder in their house when I was seven, eight an' tem'years old. They had a wooden winder that they shut and opened. And nobodY 8 had a screen door or thought of such a thing as a screen door winder , no screen whatever, that door had to stand open to give you enough air an' ligh~ that~s all the way you got any, an' that give the hous~lies!Y1l swing to gat , to get , to come in your house. And my mother and grandmother an' plenty of the neighhors that lived about us, where IVe eaten a-many a meal, dinners an' suppers, would have one hand to stand, by the table with a big brush, a peachtree bush with the leaves on it an' fight them flies off a the , 'a folkses plate till they eat. L.L: Hmmm. ae4 A.D.: Now, now that happelll allover that country, ... of course, you couldn't shut the door L.L: Yeah. A.D.: because you'd smother to death in there, An' because there was no screens and you , no light either if you shut the door. The , no air could get there, ner light either, you had to have it open. An' when night came, you had to have it open, an' if you lived in lowlands, the mosquitoes'd eat you up. There's no screen to keep 'em out. And you had to shut the door or they'd eat you up. An' it it , now suppose that our house wives, wellll an' we men folks, too, had to go through with some things like that now, we'd whine an' whoooop an' we would groan (laughs). But we went through-:, it. We went through with it. An' lots of us, like the nigger, lived in that way. I'll tell you that's th' reason that nigger's story"j I'll tell you right now in the middle of it The old n~gger, two 9 big niggers met up, in sl~ve time ,an' one of 'em said to th' other, says,"You loOks like you never been sick in your life." He said, "Yeah," but he says,"I ain't always been a big stout nigger like this." Says, "They tells me's t<hen I Ioms born, that they could pu"j;, uh, my head up in a tea cup an' run their finger 'round an' 'round 'tween my head an' that cup." (laughter) He said,"Did you live?" He said, "They say I did an' I've done well:" (laughter) An' he's a-standin' there loltkin' at him. (Laughs) So, ah, we lived an' lots of us done well. j~e ;rent through it, a lot of us done well. But it was a, it was a, it was a hard problem to come through. But, thank God, we've come to a better day than that. An' we can growl an' groan about this an' that all we please, but but I do,hope that nob6dt/ on earth will eVer have to go through the , those days that, uh, oui: foreparents had to go through with. An' we ought to give them all the honor that could be, for ahwhat they've done to make this countty where it ~s. They really suffered for it, we we've helped some to make , but we didn't suffer for it like they did. An' theyTeedue, those 01', uh , residents, uhh , are due more honor than we'll ever be able to put on 'em fer fer bearin' th' burden. Well, they worked together till they got better houses, they worked together till they got better roads. And, it 'uz,2it 'uz a slow go. But they finally came to where that they , roads was decent to travel. An' ah , of course they's all dirt roads, uh, no , an' the streets was and' ain't cut a nnld 10 hole in front of the few little stores they was. Just a , in the winter time, 'uz lust a perfect mudhole, good folks a-drivin' in an' out just as , why you might near mire down right in front of store because it's g , natural earth was always there. But we come a long ways, an' I'm mighty proug of it. Well , now then, an' another hardship that we went through with an' I Io~>nder how we lived an' overcame that, more than I do the heat of the fireplace an' the totin' the water, an' all the rest that I have described, was the medecine problem. There was no doctors to go to an' uh, you d , dug your own medecine, some fellah come along an' he had one remedy an' another, an' he knowed another remedy. An' one recommended what , that was knOlonl then as bluegrass. An', uh, it was a little bluer than a sedge grass, it took a pretty good eye to tell the difference. But as a purgative, now, or a laxative, that was the main one, mainly wh~t was used. Folks would go to the old fields, I have an' dUg it, after after I was a married man, I went to th'old fields an' dug that. An! uh, caught a little bundle up, the the dose was "hat you catch up around your fingers that way. Their roots or whatever was that long when you clipped the top off, ..uh . ah , the roots averaged about that long, little yellow roots. An' uh, what you could span that way was counted a dose, an' you steeped it in hot water, took twenty or thirty minutes. An' uh, then cooled it an' dranked it. You might get three times more than you needed, an' you might not get a half enough, that's ably the way the dos~t, though, the only way they knowed dose it that that wastthe cUstom, just what you could cut ya around that-a-way. 11 Well, to one person, that would, that would be enough might like to kill 'im. To another one, it might not. Well, another another remedy was catnip tea, that baby , uh , when it, that got sick, ah' got the croup an' begin to scream an' take on an' cry an~: suffer, uh, get 'im some catnip tea. That 'uz that, that, that was the remedy allover the land. Every woman had a bunch of catnip grown in the corner of her garden an' that was baby medicine,'s catnip tea. Didn't go to the doctor for nothin' an' she went to that. Well, if a fellow was ab . , h , had a bad breakin' out on him, lot of folks would recommend a good drink of rot gut whiskey. If he had lumbago an' couldn't straighten his back, give him some whiskey. No matter what he had, it was a , it a , give him some whiskey. (Laughter) Yeah! They , that was it. An' . , an' , an' quinine uh, was used very frequently but not as , not so much in th' first years as it was ten or twelve years later in my life. But, uh, th~ finally got to, uh, they gave 'em , for chills they the , resortea to quinine an' it was a wonderful remedy. An' then calomel come along an' thousands was killed with it, thousands of peoples' in th' grave today, now, n6t that many in Winston Cpunty, but I'll say there's hundreds in tpe graves today, th' result of takin' calomel, was abput all th' doctors gave you, when you went to a doctor, I won't name none but , none of 'em, fer I wouldn't want to ,to throw no stigma on 'em, but ab, even no matter what you had, went to th' doctor, he give you a dose of calomel. }~.L: What is that, I'm I'm not know . A.D.: Calomels, yeah, C-A-L-M M-O 12 Woman's voice: You never hear the name much called now. A.D.: Calmo . 14r.L.: No. A.D.: No, errr. , th', th', th' law ruled that out, uh, years ago. An' if you took a little bit of overdose of that calomel, it would do what they call salivatin'. An' your gums would, might near rot off. They just might right near eat your gums up. Uh, that's woman's gums was eat up with it, years ago, an' she had to have teeth thirty , 's been thirty, thirty-five years you had to have new teeth put in W. voice: Yes. A.D.: the ca+omel, her teeth just crumble all to pieces. L. L: Hmm! A.D.: Well, they, they , they didn't know no bettr, that's , just to give what they had, that's all, it was cheap medicine an' a~lomel is a derivative from stone coal, it's a by-product of stone coal. An' it's jUst as white as snow, th' whitest little tablets even to look at that, just as white as snow, no one would dream that came out of black stone coal, but it does, it was a by-product an' was cheap, don't you see? An' uh , it , it cost a mighty little, eh, , by-products of anything was always cheaper than th main thing that that they used , that they get 'em. , uh, body for, An' they give, they give that. An', uh, my daddy dug heart leaf root. An' there's not none in Winston COllllty, uh, there never was that I 13 knew of, but was in l.farion County. He dug that heart leaf root an' it tasted a little bit like turpentine. An' ! don't r:emember what hey gave it for, but he'd dig it an' then they was a calamius root an' they dug that an' use it, I don't hear it never mention now, If there's an~ in existance, I don't know it. But, I've s ... , but I've tote it in my pocket an' eat it. L.L: What for? A.D.: For a medicine, calmus, C-A-L-M-U-S, calmus. An' it wa , it was resembled a turpentine, in taste a little bit. W. voice: Um humm. A.D: Just a little bit. An' then, uh, some other, uh, medicines that we used, frequently, uh, was uh, bl what they called blackroot, it was a a .. , ah, I can't think, I can't think. W. voice: They used it for colitous. A.D.: Anyho1il, blackroot, they dug that. My daddy dug a-many a root of it. Well, we moved to Marion County from Winston:"County. An' when I was eight years old, a doctor had doctored me for ,ah. skin scrufalo on my left foot, from th' . day I was born, I guess, or from the month, I'll say, in the month I was born, that's the be . , he had, it popped out an' he begin to doctor it. An' it never got no better, he never did improve on it.'C~ourse f' I have my parents' word for that, of course I don't remember th' first of it, but I do,;remember that he finally gave me up an I said he couldn't 14 do nothin , about it. He believed if they'd put me to chewin' tobacco, it might do w. voice: Oh, well, now this was A.D.: An' they dmd . W. voice: better'n anything. A.D.: An' I can't remember th' first I ever chewed, I sat on th' pallet, I didn't learn to walk till I was, ub, aboutvthree years old, because I couldli't walk with that foot, it just, er, just s stayed in a bad, runnin' sore all th' time. ~Iell, we moved to Marion county an' my father went to , an' my brothers, went to diggin' root for 01' doctor Rodin. An' that made his own medecine. Never, he never order none from nobody' s pharmacy. He made his own, hired folks to dig it an' he bought it. Or hired them to, an' fixed it to suit him an' then, they dug a root called black walnut. No, white walnut. White walnut an' th.. , he made, ab, thick liquid out of that an' one day, they was a-boilin' a five gallon can of that on that hearth, that's where we boiled everythin~On, raked out some coals on the hearth an' they coiled, was boilin' a can of that. A big square can , uh. , an' ah, the bail's sticking up that they held it cy. An' my my foot 'as tied up with a a big rag of some kind, 's bound up an' I went hoppin' by that an' I hooked my toe, as I hopped by it, I hooked my toe in th' b8il of that can an' that 15 throwed me, an' I fell on my face an' pulled that can over. An' an' h'it just covered that an' took ever bit of that hide off that foot from . from along here down. An' it was months an' mont , well I'll say year, before they could do, they had to graft some skin back on part of j.t. An' it 'as ovElr a year tefore that ever looked like it would ever get well, an' it did. Got sound an' well an' I never hear tell of my skin scrufulo no,~ore. That's how I got to cured. (Laughs) Mr L.: PJIlIIllIl. A.D.: Of skin scrufulo. Mr.L.: That's a pretty tough way to get cured. L.L: Sure is. (Laughs) ,.., A.D.: (laughs) That's a tough way. Tl::J1t... , th' remedy was about as bad as th' disease would~ Mr.L.: Yeah. A.D.: But now tpat's a fact, now, a W. voice: He wants ypu to tell, to tell 'em th' story about th' oxen's a little differnt to th' mule plowin' 14r.L.; Oh, yeah. W. voice: when you got th' chance 16 A.D.: In my early days, my father an' all th ' communtiy except about three families in my earliest recollection drove oxens all together to t' plowin' of th' land. No matter uhoc., whuh . what you did, it was oxens was what drove. fl~' I made th' first two crops after I was a married man, ah, with a with oxens, drove OJ,ens an' rna.de that crop. Oxens were never intended to plow an' work in fields an' , in this part of th' country, it's , they can't stand th' heat. They don't sweat an' oxen, lot of folks don't know why , that a oxen can't stand heat. They did you ever see a ox with his tongue out? Cattle to get hot an', an' pant . , stick their tongue out an' pant like a dog? Well, now, they will, in hotweather. Db ... , I've seen 'em out in postures a few times get hot ehough ,just to pant a little bit. But, in workin' a oxen in hot weather, th' only coolin' system he had was a spray. They don't sweat a drop, don't care if they . burn down an' die, they don't sweat, not a drop. A-c mule an' a\horse can sweat off, an' stearn off an' get rid of heat, That's the reason they can sta.nd it so much better than th' ox. They can , they syeat but an ox doesn't. An' they get so hot, I've seen their tongues hang out that long, I've plowed 'em down in a furrough, when their tongue was out that long. L.L: Ilmrnm. A.D.: A-pantin' , th! their only coolin' system they had. An' they went about about one third of th' average gait of a mule, ah, the average oX.did. , They yas some, of course, spiriter than others. But the average, I'd say, was a , yould go about one third of the ga.it of a mule. An' a , two acres a day of land ploYed yas d~ig days plowin' with any ox. 17 Ah; th' . , if you was goin' two fUrroughs the row, two acres ws"s all you could get over in a day, he couldn't stand it. You'd have to take advantage of the early morning an' th' late afternoon to , in order to, to when hot weather come. Farmers understood that an' they planted their crops early as they possibly could so that, uh, they could get the heavy plo~Iin t an' th' land broke, all ready, an I th' heavy stuff all done before hot weather come an' it would make it lighter on th' oxen. WelL , when, when you went to hitch up a yoke 'a oxens, you had a yoke, th' yoke fer fer yoke, fer a pair of ox. , they called ita yoke of oxens. But it was really a pair. Ah, when they worked two, they called it a yoke 'a oxens. An' that yoke was about four and a half feet long. Two big holes bored in each end of it. An' a bow, they called it a bow, a piece of timber bent an' went up through that with a little hole through it, half an inch auger hole, to put a key in it to keep it from fallin' out. An' it come up under their throat. Looks like it would choke 'em to death, but it didn't. An' they done th' pullin' by their back of their neck, right up there. An' that . , they had to put, to put their heads down, that's th' reason they toted their heads down, uh, they, they done th' pullin' right there an' that bow came up right there an' you'd think it would choke one to death, it loak like it would. But th ' bone of this neck right through here is it is in a mule thick ih a ox, is thick , a heap thicker than . HriVq~ or a horse, rlght ~,there. An' uh, the.t bow was made so it, that it'd corne, it'd, as it to, when they put 18 their heads down, th' bone of that neck would, ah, hold that bow to keep , an' it wouldn't come plumb up here to, ah, to th' throat, to th' swallow an' choke 'em. It'd catch against th' hard part of that neck. An' their , they , go with heads down, they can really pull a load. T~y could pull as much, I guess as a . , same weight or maybe more than a mu+e, a good pullin' yoke of oxens would. An' theythey, uh, had th' tongue in th' center of th' wagon an',a~9ig ring in th' middle of this tongue went through it. Then, they dropped in what was called a pullin' pen in a head of that to keep that ring from slippin' off. An' then, th' one behind that ring, so they could hold back. An' their holdin' back had to be done by that jaw right there. L.L.: Hmm. A.D.: I don't see how they poor things, I felt th' corners on there as thic~ as my hand an' bigger than my hand on a-many one's jaw. They lent (leaned) apert, just as far as they could lean apart, An' throwed that neck around that way, an' that put that bow, thBt there big round bow, it'd be almost as big as, well, about th' size of that chair post, just about,~over~ther~,'the size of,tsat chair post. Now they had hauled big loads down steep hills an' I mean steep hills, too, when I say steep hills.An' they'd hold that load with that bow w... , throw that jaw around there an' each one would swing as far apart as he could an' pop that jaw against tha~ bow an I hold it dmm .. , down hill to a big old corn would be worn over their jaw. Mr.L.: Hmm. , ~ A.D.: Taht's right. AnI '-' Mr.L.: Do you , excuse me, go ahead, if you A.D.: .. which.... Mr.L.: Go ahead. A.D.: It's wonderful , ah to see, uh, some of th l things that's gone by. AnI it's glorious to see what we have today, instead of it. An' I do hope that, ah, as we look back together over those, some of those hardships an' things, that t'will help us to appreciate the days that we live in an' what we have to do with now. Mr. L.: Yeah. 19 A.D.: I hope it will. An I I t!link, uh, that's ,uh, about th I end" uh, of, um. time that I could give you. Mr.L.: Well, sure do appreciate it. A.D.: 1 .. ,00, I .... Informant: Alphie Cockrill Interviewer: Linda Lovett, Spring, 1967 C-11 Linda Lovett: Okay, 'fua . Alphie Cockrill: Wha about the vines? A.C.: Uh, they used to, they . they Cbaeliqou.lV.( rlDr::>e") the kitchen, they'd g~t up early in th t mornin' and walk back'ard to where they's goin' to plant 'em and plant 'em so that the vines stayed better that \;ay. LL.: Okay, what about, uh . , any other signs or any other times of when to .. plant? A.C.: I don't remember 1bout those, 'ceptin' about .. L.L: Wh ..what about plantin' the . the illoon, did that have anything? A.C.: Th' what? L.L: The moon, did the moon have anything to do with it? A.C.: Oh, yeah ... they ... L.L: \'mumbles} A.C.: ...they give it the corn. I know 'at, Daddy always talked about, you know, back in the days that, on the .. full of the moon, they'd plamt. L.L: Plant corn? A.C.: Corn, uhhuh. L.L: Okay, and what about , uh the remedies now? A.C.: Oh, the comfort root, the comfort theylied around, like beads, around their neck. To keep , said it kept the children from takin' a cold. And then they used that snake root, a yellow root, they'd get out 0' the woods and make tea and things; 'bout all they used, uh . if they took cold, t' doctor with. L.L: Is the snakesroot for colds? A.C.: Uhhuh. L.L: Okay. Can you think of any of ( clears throat) other remedies? Sassafrass tea, did you use that for any thing? A.C.: I believe they made that, an' gave to the babies when they 'uz teet-hin'. I think I've heard Mother say that's what they us", that for. L.L: What, the tea? A.C.: The sassafras tea. L.L: And what about th' catnip tea? A.C.: Ohh, I guess that was fer colds or maybe if they . took measles or someth. , some'n like that, use that hot to make lem break out. They used hot things then, and now, you know it's cold but I, ah L.L: To make 'em break out? 2 A.C.: Uhhuh. Real hot, teas and things like that. L.L: What about do you happen to remember any old, any old saymn's that maybe .. you all still say? Uh, proverbs or riddles or . A.C.: Mmmriddles? LL.: Umhum, do you remember any riddles? A.C.: Hmm. I remember one about the Chinese used tm tell, I believe. L.L: Okay. A.C.:"That six set, seven sprung; out of the dead, the livin' come. ,I L.L: What's the answer? A.C.: That 'ia.s, ah .uh hen that set in a, .. it was a dead harse. His haid, she sit in his haid and raised little chickens. L.L.: Oh (laughs). A.C.: You know that vas'1 six set, seven sprungl/: the hen set and had six childrI' ., six baby chicks and they \1 sprung out o' the dead 'I, it was the dead horse haid where she sit, made her nest. (laughs) L.L: Okay. Any more? that was good. A.C.: Ohh, I used to knowah, quite a few riddles, but I've forgotten 'em all, I b11ieve. (pause) Hmm! We Ire wastin' time. (laufhs) L.L: Okay. Tell me about the .uh games you all used to play. A.C.: Uh, we'd play "Hickand Seek" and "Get But and 1l>ig Sage Patch" and "Run Hide" and, uh, "Red Light" an ' .all of them games. 3 L.L: What was , whet was the other name for "Red Light"? A.C.: Uh, "Black Tone". LL.: Okay, and about the play parties. A.C.: That "Black Tone", you know, you'd sa.y " Black tone, black tone . ", if you didn't say black tones three times, if they started to run, they 1 s out, you know, like if you say, " Black tone, black tone, J-Iue tone" and then be ah . ah,stcrn and they'd be out of the game. L.L: Uhhuh. Cause you got to A.C.: Yeah ... , s9- I L. L: .. start fore he &&.'"l" three. A.C.: That's right. L.L: Three "Black tones". AC.: Ulfu.h:;: L.L: Okay, and tell me about the play parties. A.C.: Uh, well, we'd all go to them an', uh , play, uh, game, as "Spin the Bottle", you know and ever who'd . tha bottle pointed at, was s'posed to take a walk with 'em, the girls was. L.L: Did you ever dance, kind of? A.C.: Nooo, we didn't dance. They hadn't heard tell of dancin', back in them days, hardly. (laughs) 4 L.L: Would it, ah . , well . would ah you sing at 'em or sing any kind of songs? A.C.: Hmm, nothin' more'n in a game you know, they sing, just . ah. like this... (sings) " On my way t' TenneseeJ' ... in a ... in the ga.me you know., was all the singin' there was. L.L.: An 'what about, ah. A.C.: (clears throat) L.L: Oh, yeah, the box suppers. A.C.: Oh, well, we'd fix the box, you know, fix it, decorate it up real good an' fill it up with stuff to eat, and the boys'd be always peepin' when you come in an I we'd wrap 'em up with a paper an' try to keep them from knowin' whose box it was. L.L: Hmm. A.C.: And, ub, then they'd bid on the boxes an' after they sold them, ya had to eat supper with the one that bought your box. An' then the purty girl, you know, have a purty virJ. cake and ever who got the most points~ld get that cake. An' a guess cake. L.L: A what cake? A.C.: Guess cake. 5 6 L.L: Guess cake. A. C.: We baked the guess cake one time for the school, put a thimble in it and, uh, made quite a bit a money on it, you know, the longer it takes 'em to guess, it 'uz ten cents a guess. An' they didn' guess it right off an' we mB"de quite a bit a money on that guess cake. L.L: Hmmm. A.C.: Uh .... L.L: Ab , wh . did you, ah.what d'you do, just eat supper ,dth the boys? A.C.: Uhhuh. L.L: An' . an' then what would you do? Would it. wo,lld it be over with? A.C.: It'd be over af . , it'd be over, that was the last thing you know, they'd have the guess cake and the ugly man cake and purty girl cake. An' when got through with all that, sell the boxes an' then you'd eat supper, be over. L.L: Did you have 'em at church? A.C.: N no , we usually had 'em at the school house. L.L: And Dale said that, uh, y'all gave a egg hunt one time. A.C.: Dh, yeah, we gave L.L: Kinde tell me what you did. A.C.: Oh, well. we just uh all got together an' uh older people would hide the aigs. you know. An' then the children would be rlinnin' allover the hill a-huntin' 'em. We'd have. oh in the hundreds of aigs. you know. for there's quite a fe" comin' in. to the aig hunt. L.L: What d'you . did you ..what d'you dye em with? A.C.: Oh. Well. you could git aig dye out of the woods. instead of going to the store and buyin' it. we'd get it there and it1d make a purty golden brown aig. An' then. we've used color. if you know. an' could color 'em with that. An' I have material, get a scrap that had flowers. you khow? . L.L: Umhm. A.C.: ...and wrapped that around the aig real tight and boil it an' it(d come out with purty flowers allover it. L.L: Ohh. Okay. can you think of anything else? A.C.: Ahh. thas the aig hunt. Mr. Lovett: Alphie, do you remember . ~,"j )' '.".6:::, i~";"i;~,, ~' __j:""S A.C.: I don't rem Mr L.: . any of those little rhymes that you used to say. or we used to play some little games in the storm house out there. little finger 7 Informant: Moses Sides Interveiwer: Linda Lovett, Spring 1967 C-ll Moses Sides: Well, it's for me to remember; now uh eh ah uh, if I could remember things, uh I could remember things back, uh, I can remember :L.er brother a two year older than myself. We ah ah, we wo we hauled the logs eh and, an',an', Dad we practicqy built that church house. They weren't too many folks lived in here at that time. And eh and for me to te11,ah just ah a11 about it I, I'd wouldn't know hardly how to commence. But, uh m'brother an' I, though, cut timber an: an' an' hauled 'em to the mill an' got the lumber sawed an' we Dad, of course, helped and some of the other members of the church. The church used to be a way off, an' I an' I ain't sure, but I reckon Dad and Mother belong to it. An',eh, then they,they got to have there was a 01' out house down here where they he1t services foreea while, I don't remeber just how long. An' uh I was saved, eh, not a not a hundred yards from right here, at about where black top road is out there, And uh an' this was the Primitive Baptist Church. So uh, I was saved out there an' 'e an I.,'e an' 'e, the world couldn't make me believe that but what the Primitive Baptists is the true church. At 'a time I was saved, they was ah I don't know, over two hundred differnt denominations, diffe~t types. And I said, when I when I was saved,I ah I wanted uh, I wanted to get in the church and be baptized, then. So ah I said to myself, now I know it's customary that children would join the church where Dad and Mother 2 And I said, now 1. . I don't aim to do that. Daddy an' Mother could be wrong. An' I said ahuh there's~~ there's uh there's about uh. two thou two hundred or more churches of differnt denominatbns and they uh. they all can't be right. God just sit up one church. '1. Jesus in this world. And uh an' I said .uh, the'Jo:lcL::.Rrimitive Baptist is one of the most despised churches in the world. An' I said, Daddy an' Mother could be wrong, 'a same as anybody else. Somebody's wrong. An' I said to myself, I'll not never join no" church till till I, till I git in the right one, or GQd directs me to the right church, I wanted to get in the right church. Eh ah Dad an' Mother could be wrong. I wadn't gonna join the Primitives just 'cause they belong. But uh I never told nobody what I had in mind, went on , I'd go to the uh diffeint, er denominations al'oune ",around and I was about. uh f thirteen or , welve or thirteen years old So I never had to. had to, no one to encouragement to go to any church till, ah, one day I went down to Dad's 01' church. 01' Primitive Church. ( clears throat) And you know. the Bible s~s that, uh, I wilL , God said ,\ I will add 'em to ih e church daily. such as should be saved." Well, I "ent down to Dad's 01' church and uh the ... the preacher just uh uh knew, seem like, my condition, just wh~t I had in mind just a8 good as I did. And I wondered how how he knowed it. I uh I uh didn't realize how uh he did know it, then. Of course. I know then that God was a-puttin' it into his , words in") his, to his mouth t , about me, he God knowed all about what I had in mind. S80 before i ..ahhh, when he when he preached, Why, then he'd give a opurtunity for members. I had no idea 'a goin' in ~' joinin'. But before I 3 knew what I was doin', I 1 was up there givin' my hand, askin' fer a place in their church, for membership. An' if that wasn't God addin, me to the church, I don't know what it was. An' the world couldn't make me believe but what the Primitive Baptists is the true church. Now, this we said, as I 'as tellin' about buildin this old church, we WEnt ahead and built that church an' an' uh 'At was 'a year , I don't remem,"" . ,prob'ly 1 couple years after I joined the church. Down there,even 'en, had an 01' residence house, out house with nobody livin' in it. So ah when this old church went down, folks the members begin to move off. Way back, I don't know, you might.uh remember somethin' about it. In Tenneeee, there was a great ah,ah , oh I can't think what I want tel' say. They was a boost up there, t~ug9, uhh tha eh, everybody was a-mavin' from differnt states to to Tennesee. So there's a lot a the members went, some of 'em, I mean, went to there; some of 'em to Walker County, and differnt places about till, till ah. there wereN't but one member left. So, ah... wife and I both belonged to th' that church, an' so we ah ,I wasn't satisfied when th~y uh, whel:e they didn't have no services. We just went on out around, never went to no church fer some times, weren't no Primitive church close enough to we could go, an' back then, we didn't have no cars then. So ah." I tol' wife one day, I said, 'ets go over here to Fairview Church, that's two miles from over here, in toward Devil Springs. I said,'ets go over there an' go into D~ '2, 4 that Missionary Baptist Church. I said they's~some good people in that church. Maybe a a poor church'll beat no church at-all. Linda Lovett: Hnunm. ( laughs ) M.S: So ah a, a poor home, I said a poor home I ... I guess would beat no home at-all, have no place that we could call home. So we stayed in there about twenty or twenty-five years, in that church. An' I got dissatisfied there. It took on, I figured, lots a members in that church, git 'em in there that er, uh not saved So ah , they had too many worl'y ( worldly) things in their church. Well, they ah . had a free for all, we had a free for all fight there one night, uh They put on a play, Christmas tree, and box supper, an' I don't kno>! just , first anything to make money, now the church wanted to make some money. Well, th~ls a fellar had that in charge an' he, an' he told, he he was a-votin' on differnt things ah I don't know whether eh,uh you all knowed of anything like that or not. The thEf votin l on the pertiest girl, th' th' young boys was, an' ... an' the,uh the an'the ugliest man. Any thin ... any thing to get some money, it pays so much in for a vote, you know. Well, they ah . they,they,they, was a-gittin l quite a bit a money, too. Eh.. I think they got about uh... uh bette:rln two hundred dollars. So, there's a young man voted, ah, for the pertiest girl anl an' , it, this fellar just give 'em so many minutes till. ,to vote in. AnI this fellar, young man, throwed some money down on, slap down on the table an', an' a an' the fellar called "out", about that guy I don't know which one was riight, but, anyway, they got to 5 arguing on it. The the fellar slapped the money down and the young man, he said it hit th' table before he called "outll and an' he said, "No, I called !'outll before it hit th' table. 1I Well, they just went to ehh arguIng about it, and went to fightin'. And they had the:.-awfullest ripit there, and turned the money changers' table overyou all know about uh, when Jesus went in the temple, don't you:, about one Sunday morning an' an' they overtowed the chambers, they uh. was havin' big worl'y time in there and makin' money. An' I thought of that, direct as, that the L.L: (laughs) M.S.: they turned that table over an' that money, they had it there on the table, you know. Just scattered all around it. Well, I tole, I ab . I told wife then, I said, Let~ go hfue, I've got enough of - this. Well, they had their their Christmas trees and thier worl'y things there in the church from then on up till I left it. An' ah . an' I say anything outside a spiritual in the church is out of it's place, these worl'y things , they ain't no place fer eh , in the church. So ab ... eventually, I just got dissatisfied, there was so many worl'y things an' folks in there, I figured, that weren't saved and an' uh, I begi begin to pray about it an . an' ah, prayin' to row Creator, talkin' to Him about it an' uh an' He put uh me to read a certain scripture, in row mind to read a certain scripture in the Bible, an' an' He said where/it's where it' s out~ through the members in the church that, uh, unsaved, these, Jesus said, " Come up from amongst 'em, and be separate." 6 And that's what I did. 1 1 come out from amongst 'em. Y~ wife's name ..uh name still on the book up there. But, uh, I went back to th' 01' Primitive Baptist. Mr.Lovett: Do you remember, uh, what the inside of this old church down here was like, the inside, how's it arranged? M.S.: How'was s'arranged? Mr.L.: Yeah, where was the pulpit or where the preacher stood? M.S.: It 'as up in the in the south end of the buildin'. An'lc ... an' ... they all had a door in . in th' end, the other end of the house, an' an' . er, side doors, too. An' uh, th' house never was, never was sealed at-all. Folks , it was, folks just had no way of makin' money, only just uh what farming they're doing, an' uh an' uh, they didn't Know about farming at that time and didn't make much. MY dad, they was , they was eight of my dad's family, an' an' eh an' eh, he he wouldn't, uh, buy no kind of fertilize, only acid fertiliZe his crops with. Us boys, we got older an',U9, . Mr.L.: You got company comin' ~L:tape stopped; then begins again_Z it's connected M.S.: I thought you was Mr.L.: Did you build this? M.S.: I certainly did. I done that .uh .uh I done everthing, most everthing 'at's done on this house, myself L.L: vllien you built 7 M.S.: I had had some help a, a-fixin' the inoverhaul the inside an', started to have some , thought I'd have some help for the outside, an' didn't even want to, .. , havin' anything to do with it, but a hired .fellow to I couldn't get no real carpenters, an' one feller had been workin' tbe carpenters business right smart an' he had a good set of tools, an' I asked him, about could he do that overhaul outside of my house, tear off yhe old weather boardin' an' put in new weather boardin' on th~, so.on This rOOm right here is a log building. Mr. L.: Really? M.S.: An' uh that's the first oneuhwhen, uh,.I stayeduhone year wi th my dad, I thought when I ... , when up before I married her, I thought a woman was all I needed. (laughs) 1.1: ( laughs) M.S.: I thought about a woman, 'ats ... that's all I needed. Never thought libout what would I do with her. (laughter) But after I married I begin to tal!,: to my wife, uh ...my dad about it an' he said,",lell son, uh I've got plenty of land here an' an' stock an' you just stay with us, now, litt . this year. Make you a crop and then, you can, ah. " He gave me a forty acres of land here. I went in the \l woods and went to cuttin' an' snakin' up logs. Made a workin' an' we notched up this old log building, big heavy pine logs. Rh hewed 'er down, eh lined up the cracks, it, and we moved into it. An' we stayed here for for sixty years. Then went to Woman's voice: They M.S.: buildin' in more to it, an', en' you see what it is now. 8 W. voice: They was married sixty years th' twenty-eighth of Feb~uary. Mr.1: There aren't many people that can say that. W. voice: No, well, no. M.S.: Got married nineteen and four. Male voice: And he entered the rest of his lan~ here, across the read down there. How much d'you enter over there? M.S.: Three forties. 1.1: You dido M.S.: I already had a fort , I uhuh entered as a joining farm, like it ough I could enter it five forties, I mean, I could 'a enter four forties, a full entry, by buildin' off the road, but I didn't wanta do that. I waLed to live on the road and so I had I couldn't B , enter but tbEee forties . M. voice: Now he's lived here M.S.: M,!~ife and I went to work and I mean~ we worked, brother. I've worked all of my life. Wife w ah has been a real .mother to me, she's stayed with me and we worked together an' M. voice: I tell you, he's lived here M.S.: There was here M. voice: . he lived here eighty-five years, on this uh land here. Not on Right down there .was where 9 M.S.: Yeah, less than a half a mile from here uh M. voice: Yeah. M.S.: ...we lived better'n eighty-five years ... Mr. L.: Well, this looks like a sturdy house. M. voice: Oh, it is. W. voice: It.is Mr .L.: Real sturdy. W. voice: it is, it is. M.voice: Yeah it's a good house. M.S.: Why, this-this-this~room right here, a log buildin', big heavy logs an', an' I took, ah . , big wide pranks (planks) from from twelve to sixteen inches wide an' ...an' stood, an' it up and down on the inside and out, nailed it with big nails and, an' ah when I d~cided I'd have it overhauled, uh inside, uh why the children, they, they begin to say, "Daddy, I wouldn't do that. I' d ... I'd tear that 01' log buildin' down",or 'I'd.;;.H:d build a new buildin' out now') I said,"No ...no,that 01' log buildin' a-gonna stand right there.I know what there is in ~Ol' log buildin t , tve been in storms where everthing was just swep} out of the to'TIl, an', an' they was an aI' log buildin' that's standin' out there, look like nearly rotted down, an' still wa.s standin' there. Didn't ... didn't tear it dmm, didn't " And I said, "They're stout." So 10 I~m proud, I ab. I just thank IDlf God fer fer lettin' me live fer better'n eighty- five years, an' uh. I've had ups an' downs, an' more downs than ups, look like/ant , an' uh After I got the feller, I ,the other feller built the inside, overhaUled the inside here and done most of the work. An', so ab . , this feller started around, he , uh. er to puttin' new weather boardin' , overhauled the outside an' he worked, uh all a day an' ~lalf or two days, an' I tole my wife, I said he'd stand, the feller I got to do this, he had two other boys, are helpin' him; he was chargin1 me a dollar an' half an hour, an' these boys, a dollar an' quarter an' hour. Well, I tole IDlf wife they'd stand~ " he'd stand and talk to these boys, how to do so an' so. An' he done a bit a corncrib work aroung here and made a iiless of that, an' tore down part of it, an' rebuilt it, an' then, it was in worser shape than ever'.ciAn' I tole wife, I said, "I'm gonna let 'em go. I have done this and I can do it again." So 1. . 1 let 'em go. I tole her, I said'~ man 'at 'ud > charge me a dollar an' half a hour oughter know how to do things." I ab I thought he knowed more than he did, but he just didn't know it. So I just went out an', ab, 1 1 put the weather boardin' around the whole thing an' painted it, an' done it all, rest of it. L.L: HO~ig hOW big was this cabin when you first built it? M.S.: Do how? L.L.: Do you remember how big the cabin was when you first built it? How big it was? Mr.L.: This house . 11 M.S.: This , how big? this W. voice: (mumbles) L.L: this one room M.S.: It was, ub, sixteen ty eighteen. (wn;'5p"~") Mr.L.: VSixteen by eighteen. M.S.: Sixteen by eighteen room. (pauses) You can look at those ab, ab Mr.L.: (whispers) That was (mumbles,) M.S.: windows and places an' tell's a log house, it's as , as thick as they are. I put ah, after I'd had it already plank put up an' dOh~ on it, round, then theh I had sheetrock put on the walls, cedar , overhead. An' I just wife said, "Well, I don't be~ve I'd,. ab, do anything, now, to the other room; just let 'em go." I said, It No, I don't want to be partial! an' I. .. , I dressed this room up,9I want to dress the rest of them up."(laughs) So I just went ahead an', an' had 'em all fixed, sheetrock an' ceilin' M. voice: Now, they did their cooking an' everything in this one room, right here, to start with. Then, they had their kitchen over yonder L.L.: When did you add on that room out there? was that one the next one? B.S.: Do hmr? L.L: When did you add on that room over there, (louder) when didyouadd on that room Over there? M.S.: Well, really, I don't remeber. It was several years, though, I added 12 that room there, elled it off there first 1.1: first . M.S.: then we equipped it, then I, thenlI, then I built this room, I I don't remember. You know a lot of things, I can, when I 'as just a small little 01' bo~, I ah, things is just as fresh in my memory as it ever was. But, uh, things of yesterday, I've done forgot. But, ah . M. voice: Prob'ly about ten or fifteen years aftee you built this one, wadn't it? M.S.: I imagine it M. voice: you had it built . (mumbles) hmmm. M.S.: was. I went . , I had to clear up my land an' M. voice: An' then possibly keep M.S.: .. I don't know. M. voice: . three years before you added this one. M.S.: .!hen I went to . , when I 'as tellin' (laughs) about enterin', uh. this uh . three forties to this forty that Dad let me have, why I went to the uh. , they was some land in this , Winston Count that, ah, was settl , was a-gonna be trrrown back subject for rentin', rentin' I mean ah W. voice: Enterin'. 13 M.S.: Enterin'. An! uh, an' I tole the prublic ( public) judge, I says "Now/when they, when that throwed back for, subject for rentin', I want that, down ther'j'," they was a , they was a quite uh , five, uh, ffn~orties layin' right north of here that, uh, subject for rn~tin' or enterin' an' homesteadin', are the other words. So ah I tole 'im, I wan , lie said, well just as qUick,I found out he was the, prublic judge, was a good friend of mine. And he said" HOi-', quick as that's throwed back, I'll let you know " He said, "There's lotta folks got their eye on that. They "~ , a lot of 'em's fixin', fixin', uh, to enter it", quick as it threw back. But he say," I'ni gonna let you know, just as quick as it " an' Now, he said, " If you enter that, an, as a joining farm, you're s'posed to be a-livin' on the . , on the land 'at you enter, too~ An'he said, "I'll tell you, now, wha... , how to manage that thing." ~lell, I said, ''''Why I ... I can't, ain't a-laborin' on it. Ain't got~o house on it. Just as quick as I can build a house, I want to move on it!' He sai\l" "I'll tell you how to do it." He said,"Get you some planks, an' ...an' ... put up, uh, some forks an', an' put a ridge pole up there and set planks up each way, an'll make you a kind of a ...'j anyhow, ... house place .. " L.L: Yeah. M.S.: an' he said, "Take you a bed up there, an' uh, an' you an' your wife go there an' spend the night an' eat there~ An' we did. (laughs) I never will forget that, the gnats an' mosquitoes like to eat us up that night. (laughs) But, uh, he said uh... , er... ,"You wouldn't want to tell a~ie;"I said ,"Oh, I wouldn't do it fer the ... fer the place. tf And ... ah, weI ab .... 14 W. voice: You went the next mornin' , then, didn't you? M.S.: Huh? W. voice: You went the next mornin', then, didn't ya, an' M.S.: Yeah, went next mornin' and enter it. W. voice: town an' entered it. M.S.: That's right, I W. voice: See, it's the government an' M.S.: forgot to go on an' tell it w. voice: they could stop people from enterin' it, this homestead, an' 1 then, they took the banned off on if an' they, uh, were allowed to re-enter land. That's wben he did that. Was government land that'd never been entered in private propety ( property). M.S.: HmJllong has it been since that 01' ... , we built ths.t 01' house down there, 'at church house? Do ycu rememberanything about it? M. voice: I don' know, it's been W. voice: Well, Bert's fifty-eight an' be went to church there (laughs) M. voice: ~lhen I was a kid W. voice: when he was a little bitty kid, so M. voice: I tell you, I'd sEW it's been sixty years. W. voice: Longer'n that, I guess. Mr.L.: Hr. Walker was sayin' M.S.: Yeah, it's been over s M. voice: Over sixty years, I guess, hadn't it? W. voice: It was there before you man-ied, wasn't it? !-l.S.: Yeah. W. voice: Yeah, it's there before you married. How old. H.S.: Now, ... W. voice: ..,..were you when you married? M.S.: I 'as twenty-one. W. voice: Twenty-one M. voice: I'd say possibly sixty-five years. Mr.L.: Hr. Walker was thinkin' that church was built with a pulpit in the center of the church W. voice: Uh-hunh. Mr.L.: . but Mr. Sanders said that M.S.: No , 'uz at one end. Hr.L.: This must have been another church that he was thinkiil'about that 15 got mixed up W. voice: What Walker? Mr.L.: with it. 11. and Mr. L.; Frank. W. voice: Hmmm. M.S.: Frahk Walker. What was that other Walker boy n .... his brother's name? M. voice: 1 1 M.S.: Frank an' M. voice: You mean. you're talkin' about the one at Haze~ton? Mr.L.: No. Frank is ;. M.S.: No, they live down here atout the , they live at M. voice: Dh. , oh , yeah. LEnd of TapeJ 16 A PDF transcript exists for this recording. Please contact an archivist for access. Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions. As archivists, we acknowledge our role as stewards of information, which places us in a position to choose how individuals and organizations are represented and described in our archives. We are not neutral, and bias is reflected in our descriptions, which may not convey the racist or offensive aspects of collection materials accurately. Archivists make mistakes and might use poor judgment. We often re-use language used by the former owners and creators, which provides context but also includes bias and prejudices of the time it was created. Additionally, our work to use reparative language where Library of Congress subject terms are inaccurate and obsolete is ongoing. 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