Billie Rumbaugh interview with Catherine Keith, Susie Broadwell, Eleanor Drake, Frank Rucker, Ruth Rucker, Edith Rucker, Flora Dorris, and Newt Dorris (part one)

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This is the first of a two-part interview. This part begins with Catherine Cantey Keith singing a few short songs, including Go Tell Aunt Tabby and Hush Little Baby. She describes elements of her childhood including a tag game, playing with her familys washerwomans children, and attending school at a small brick schoolhouse three miles from her home. She also fondly recalls riding ponies to school and being one of 18 students spread over eight grades with one teacher. Having grown up on a farm, she lists the plethora of foods her family grew, including wheat, corn, peaches, and watermelon. During family dinners the children were always expected to remain quiet. Next Keith describes her family home, which was built in 1835 by the overseers of Fort Mitchell, a time in which Native Americans controlled the fort. She concludes her interview by recalling a Christmas when she and her siblings received axes for presents and describing how her family stored butter on the back porch. Next, Eleanor Drake, Susie Broadwell, Frank Troy Rucker , and Ruth Rucker reminisce about their uncles and the old crabapple school. The recording ends with Keith singing five folk songs, including Animal Fair and Went Down in the Valley.
Catherine Cantey Keith (1906-1999) was born in Fulton County, Georgia, where she graduated from Girls High School. She had two daughters and died in St. Simons, Georgia. Her daughter, Billie Keith Rumbaugh (1934-1992), married Dana Rumbaugh and had three children. Susie Broadwell (1892-1976) was born in Little River, Milton, Georgia, to William Sherman Broadwell and Mary Catherine Broadwell. Frank Troy Rucker (1892-1982) was born to William David Rucker and Melissa Princella Rucker. He married Edith Gertrude Copeland Rucker (1900-1987) and they had one daughter, Helen Rucker Manley (1917-1990). Flora Beauchump Rucker Dorris (1894-1981) was born in Little River, Georgia, to Robert L. Rucker and Anna C. Crisler. She lived with her husband, Newt Dorris (1890-?), in Little River.
Family history;
Tape l, Track l (transcribed up to 42) Mrs. Keith: This is the \1ay my old nurse down on the plantation sang this song to me. "Go tell Aunt Tabby Go tell Aunt Tabby Go tell Aunt Tabby The old grey goose is dead. The one she's been savin' The one she's been savin' The one she's been savin' To make her feather bed. " Interviewer: What's the one about "Hush Little Baby?" Mrs. Keith: Cut t'off. Well, cut t'off 'til I think. "Go to sleep, my little pickaninny, Brother Fox'll get you if you don't, Slumber on the bosom of your old Mammy Jenny, Brother Fox'll get you if you don't." Interviewer: Very good. Mrs. Keith:"Go to sleepy, little baby, When you wake we'll pat-a-pat-a-cake And ride the pretty little pony." /jere I played the guitar a little with her to try to overcome some of her nervousnessJ '~ush, little baby, don't say a word Daddy's gonna buy you a mocking bird, If that mocking bird won't sing Daddy's gonna buy you a diamond ring. If that diamond ring is brass Daddy's gonna buy you a looking glass, If that looking glass gets broke Daddy's gonna buy you a billy goat. If that billy goat won't butt, Daddy's gonna buy you a pony and cart, If that pony runs away, Daddy's gonna buy you a boom-de-aye." 7 Interviewer: Uh, what were some of the games you played? You were tellin' me about one where you ride on somebody's back--? Mrs. Oh, Keith: that one. Uh, you get on someone's back and then the other' person would say, "What do you have there?" And the person carrying you would say, "A bag of nits." And then they'd say, ''Well, shake 'em 'til they spit." And then you'd just shake 'em and shake 'em 'til they fell off. Tape l, Track 2 (transcribed up to 38) Mrs. Keith: "Animal Fair?" Now? Interviewer: Uh huh. Mrs. Keith: ''Went to the animal fair The birds and the beasts were there By the light of the moon, the old raccoon lias combin' his auburn hair. The monkey he got drunk And fell on the elephant's trunk, The elephant sneezed and fell on his knees, And what became of the monk-monk-monk?" Do "Baby Bunting?" "Bye Baby Bunting Daddy's gone a-hunting To get a little rabbit skin To wrap the baby bunting in." ''Went Dmm in the Val--?" Uh-- ''Went down in the valley to pray Went down in the valley to pray Went down in the valley to pray I got drunk and stayed all day. All my sins are taken away, taken away." Interviewer: Any more verses? Mrs. Keith: That's all I know. Interviewer: Where did you learn that? Mrs. Keith: We sang that down the country. Interviewer: At the meetings, or uh--? Mrs. Keith: No, just--just the children. ''Down went McGinty to the bottan of the sea Dressed in his best suit of clothes, He must of gotten wet for we haven't seen him yet Dressed in his best suit of clothes." That's all. That's what my mamma used to sing. Eleanor: What you want me to do? Interviewer: Say it. Eleanor: [This is a recitation that Eleanor learned fran her mother when she was littl<U "Girls do have so much trouble, especially if they have little brothers. I have a brother, his name is Tom. I'll tell you some of the trials I have with him. I used to have a cat named Neopotomus, and Neopotomus had fits, And Tom would stand on the chair while Neopotomus went 'roWld and 'round and he'd say "Fits, Fits." One day Neopotomus had a bad We had a funeral for him out And when we laid the flmlers With :fit and he fell down the stairs and broke his neck. 'Birds and bees in the on his of the morning, back yard, and we took all our dolls cof:fin, maple and/alder we the sapg: are in bloom, ( }!\ffi"\ " f'A/"-O lAff:v. W~ , ~ nil, " } Neopotomus shall never see the dawning--' this we laid him in the tomb. The next morning I went outside and the grave was open and the cat was gone. And I looked overhead and saw Neopotomus hanging :from the limb of the apple tree and he was smoking a cigar. Then I saw Tom sittin' in the apple tree and he sang: 'Had a little cat, he loved me, swingin' up yonder in the apple tree, Ta ra ra ra ra boom, ta ra ra ra ra boom. ' " (laughter) :. /3 Tape 1, Track 1 (428) I had, uh, we had a great uncle that lives in Alpharetter and he ;rent to California durin' the Cole--Gold Rush, and his name was Uncle Joe--Uncle Joe Rucker--and he lived in Alpharetter and, uh, Uncle Elzey he lived over here close to Nap, on Nap".s place. Well, uh, one Sunday mornin' . Uncle Joe came over to Grandpa to see his Mammy (that's what my daddy called her--they lived over there) and Uncle Elzey for some reason or another was goin' over to see Uncle Bill, so just right over whar' ;re live is a creek there;rell, then they met up, passed the time of day, and decided to sit d= and chat awhile. Well Uncle Joe, he, for some reason or 'nother it jest occurred to him, ncm Elzey'll start an argument, I don't care what it is, Elzey, he's a great hand to argue. He just agrees with everything he said. \?ell usually it wuz' religion most likely 'cause that 'uz the thing they start somethinl, "Elzey, it's that way, Elzey--you're right." \?ell, Uncle Elzey started talkin' back on the other side. started the other way, and he'd still agree with him. Finally, Uncle Elzey got disgusted. Called up thar' to Bill, said ''Bill?'' Said ''When did you talk to Joe? Have you talked to him lately?" "I don't kno;r." Said, "I met him down on the creek while ago and talked to him a ;rhile--you kno;r, I believe he's losin' his mind." (laughter and comments) Susie: Uncle Bill, I believe he 'uz a Universalist, wasn't he? Arr;fHay, he, uh, I believe they said that he didn't believe in, they's any hell. Thought everybOdy'd go to heaven. One day, though, this ole' Aunt Harriett, nigger, lived in the yard thar', she had other views, you knOlif. So one day, this, uh, hawk sHooped down an' picked up a chicken, or started to, and Uncle Bill shot it, shot the ha\ifk. Well she marched out and picked up that chi--that hawk, laid it on the fireplace, and Uncle Bill said, ''What are you doin' that for?" "I'm gonua 'vince him they's punishment after death." (laughter) Eleanor: Tell her that thing about the man, uh, the couple comin' along in the buggy and they passed the house and said ''Who lives here?" and that business. You remember that? And they said ''Who lives--;rho =s all this ?" and they said "The Ruckers." Troy:Oh, that's about, uh, Cousin Uke. No;r he 'uz right ;rhar I'm livin', and the road ;rent right on by thar and he I uz hearin' it--Preacher Hudgins and one of his other brethren, ha, just passin' by thar, one in one buggy and one in n'other'n and natch'lly they 'uz talkin' to one another. Hell they had started just makin' ridges and plantin' oats in the fall of the year and ;rould brush the oats d= in this bottom of the firs to come up. Well, he asked Brother Hudgins, says "Ho;r did they get this, that oats down in that, down in thar' like dat~" And he explained it to 'em just ho;r they done it. And what the object was to make it survive the winter, uh, cold, I mean the fir you know, the banks to help it'. Well he sez, "That's a good idy," sez, ''Who does this land here belong to?" And the other'n sez, "Oh it belongs to these Ruckers," sez, "They, uh, they're good farmers, good friends, good neighbors, but quar." (laughter and conversation) Troy:Now Uncle Bill and Uncle Elzey, they were grown whenever Simeon Bluford--that 'uz the first one that moved here--they were grown when they moved here. And Uncle Bill went up there huntin' that--they's scoutin' aroundand they went up there just above where Uncle Joel's fish pond is up there on that bluff, you know, and they happened to look--two redskins up there. Said, ''you seen 'em gettin' nearer." Well they 'uz lookin' up in the treeshot, out come a squirrel. They shot an arrow right through it. Said it fell down right at their feet. Well they picked it up there and give it to them. Uncle Bill wuz tellin' Nap about that one time. See when they wuz hunting out for a homestead natch'lly they'd look aroundand they stopped here. I think they were over in Alabama, didn't they? Ruth:Yeah, they went to Alabama first, but Simeon Bluford liked this country when they came through here, they came fran Elberton. And, uh, he wanted to stop and the rest of 'em wouldn't stop. And they went on to Alabama, but he couldn't forget this spot here. So[The tape ran out here. The gist of the conversation was that Simeon Bluford Rucker came back to that area north of Roswell and settled~ Tape 2, Track l (l6) Eleanor: Do you--did you ever know the "Ballad of Mary Phagan?" You know, the Leo Frank case? Susie: Um, yeah, I 'member 'bout it. Eleanor: Do you know the song? Susie: No, I don't. Eleanor: Oh, I'z hopin' you'd know that. Troy:That's what John Carson played. Eleanor: Yeah, he made it up sittin' on the steps of the Courthouse. Susie: Let's see, it seems to me like I've heard that. Eleanor: Well, I've got the words to it. Susie: You have the words to it? Ruth:Well, sometime dig up that one, uh, I've often had a curiosity to know that one--who-- Ruth {con't} 'bout the ribbon for her hair. Interviewer: Oh, "Scarlet Ribbons." Ruth:"Scarlet Ribbons." Where did that cane from and who?" Edith: I think that must be an English ballad. Susie: I bet that's in that book of poems you gave me. Ruth:But that has always intrigued me, and Perry Como can just sing that and make you just wonder and wonder and wonder again. Edith: I think that's an old English ballad and you know that, uh, most of the, the, uh, uh, well you know the mountain people, uh, here in Georgia are just almost pure Anglo- Saxons. And then, so those ballads have just lived with them throughout the years. And that's where most of our ballads come from is those mountain singers Interviewer: Well, you-all are English heritage, aren't you? Edith: The Ruckers were, uh, Huguenots (she pronounced were, uh, they this with a soft came if, from they Alsace-Lorraine were Huguenots which is, uh, and they came over in 1600 and somethingthey've been in this country a long time. But I'm pretty sure they rs, uh, English blood in 'em now. But they were originally Huguenots. [This is different from Uncle Nap's version--he told me they came from Hungary;] LWhile Edith was talking, Troy "as telling Eleanor something about Johnny Carson which is difficult to make out. And there ensued a discussion about a red-headed banjO picker from Ros"ell that played with Johnny Carson. They never decided on his name, but Troy said at one point, "\-/hen Johnny Carson wuz plain' that song he 'uz back in thar behind the curtain--he'd do the howlin'." He might have been referring to a song Eleanor mentioned that Johnny Carson "rote about a dog named Rattler;7 ~63) Interviewer: Was there all sorts of legends about Leo Frank afterwards? Eleanor: Well, it hadn't been long enough to have legends I don't guess. Interviewer: Did they make him out a villain or a hero? Ruth:They lynched him. /(" Eleanor: That's pretty conclusive they thought he was a villain. (laughter) Interviewer: Yeah, but I mean afterwards? Eleanor: Well, he's been exonerated since then. Interviewer: Nothing else's been sung about him since? Eleanor: Uh uh. Like I say that was made up on the steps of the courthouse in Marietta with the lynch mob around him and he wadn't gone say he was innocent. Susie: That'll always be a mystery, won't it? That man didn't have a fair trial. Edith: I haven't got a doubt in my mind what that nigger did it. Eleanor: Well, he did. He--he confessed to it Edith: Later? He did? Susie: The Negra? Eleanor: He--he confessed to it in his first, uh, conversation with his court appointed counselor, and that "as suppressed 'cause they didn't want him, they wanted Leo Frank. Susie: Ohhh, I didn't know that. Eleanor: And Jim Conley has just died in the last 2 or 3 years and that--and as soon as he died they brought out the book about it, and said that he did confess. Edith: I had no doubt at the time that he was the guilty party. Susie:Well you know Cousin Sanford Bruce, uh, you know he was the-- Edith: He was the caretaker of the cemetery over there. Susie: Uh huh. job, but I I don't know how come him to know but he said that 'ias no white man's don't know 'iho come him to know that. Edith:Well wasn't she--wasn't the Phagans from, from Marietta? Eleanor: Yeah. Susie:Well, she had some kin folks up at Cumming. I remember one of the-- Ruth:They at one time lived down there next to the Burtons, on this moun--what we abiays call the Mountain Route. Troy:Yeah, she wuz buried over...and that's what they, they had planned to carry him over there and hang him over there at the grave, but it got daylight on 'em, so they stopped over thar whar Frey's Gin, just south of here, where they'strung him up to the tree there. Eleanor: And he was in his nightshirt Susie: Um hrom. Troy: I remember in Alpharetta when that happenedcome in thar, just walked up on the jUdge's stand and court in session and just started quotin' the announcement they'd found Leo Frank and lynched him and hanged him to a tree over thar, just outside of Marietta, at the Frey's Gin, and you know everybodY in that courthouse just cheered an' hollered an' whooped. Ruth:Yeah, just like a lot of 'em down at the shop when they announced that, uh, Kennedy had been shot--Grace said some of the women jumped up and said, ''Well, thank God." /Jrere follcl'i/s a discussion of the book on KennedY which I have omitted} (118) Interviewer: 'Bout the little girl who went to the rich man's door-- Susie: Uh huh. Is that goin' nml? You want that? (laughter) Well, my voice's liable to crack any minute If I said rich man's hall, it's rich man's door. "Lay at the rich man's door." Eleanor: That's good. Interviewer: Oh, and the one about, uh, Fair Eleanor. v/hat do you remember--? Susie: I don't know that. I--I mean I wish I could think of the words and I don't knOl, the story even. Interviewer: But the one verse-- Susie: But the brown girl was rich you know in houses and land and his mother wanted her to son Eleanor to marry acrOss the brown the table girl. and '{ell, then he we loved laughed Eleanor, at thatJ Fair Eleanor /.here she pointed Susie: I (cen't) V>1' "'No home, no hom~:ied a little girl At the door of~ich man's hall As she tremb~toodon the marble step And leaned on the polished wall. Her clothes were thin and her feet were bare And the snow had covered her head, 'Oh give me a home," she feebly cried, 'A home and a piece of bread.' ~ 'My father ;bffes I never knew, ' And a tear did fall so bright, '~.jy mother sleeps in the new made grave v/hile the orphant begs tonight.' The night was dark and the snow still fell And the rich man closed his door His proud lips curled as he scornfully said, 'No home, no bread for the poor.' The rich man slept on his velvet couch And dreamed of his silver and gold Vlhile the orphant lies on a bread of--bed of snow And cries, 'I'm cold, so cold.' The morning dawned and the little girl Still lay at the rich man's hall Her soul had fled to a home above Vlhere there rs room and bread for the poor." /9 Susie: Fair Eleanor. And, uh, all I lmow is, uh "the brown girl she has houses ana. lands, Fair Eleanor has none," but I can't think of the rest of it, but just--just the last verse. I don't lmow who had the pen lmif'e and the blood came trinkling, trinkling down, you lmow--and I don't lmow ..Tho killed who. I don't know whether it was Eleanor killed the brown girl or the brmm girl killed Eleanor, I don't lmow. Eleanor: Yeah, I remember that 'cause I--Mama had a little lmife and when she'd sing about that 1'0.--1 was--I'd think of that lmife. Susie: Well, you tell her to wrack her brain, I been ,{antin' that song. I'm f'ascinated with those old, old, uh, folk songs. And, uh, the last verse, it's, uh, "Oh mother, oh mother, go dig my grave, go dig it broad and deep--wide and deep--and bury Fair Eleanor in my arms and the brown girl at my feet." And I can't think of the rest of' it to save my life. It's a great long thing. You lmow Homer's wife used to sing those things. She'd sing, uh, uh "Barbara Allen" and all those things. Eleanor: Do you lmow that? Susie: No, I don't Eleanor: Mama used to sing that and she used to sing samethin'--what ../as that thing? Rory O'Moore, or somethin' like that, and it went on and on and on and I'd go to sleep you lmmT while she was singin' it. /Eleanor had brought some old family pictures to show Susie and they were discussing them hereJ (184) Susie: ..four bales on one acre. That's a fact. Interviewer: Who was that? Susie: John B. Broadwell. He lived to be almost a hundred but he was deaf' as a post. But he, he never--he was alert, he read a lot, and he, he kept improvin' things you lmow in agriculture. Interviewer: And what'd you call the cotton? , Eleanor: Rucker? Susie: Double-jinted cotton. Eleanor: How many bolls did that stalk have on it that's dmm there in the Capitol? Susie:Well I just forgotten but it's down there in the Capitol. Eleanor: It looks like a tree or somethinf--just goes on and on. Susie: You know they, uh, of course, aJ.l the bolls they--they counted 'em and of course a lot of 'em weren't open when they--they pried those open and, and glued locks in 'em so they'd show how many bolls there were, but of course all of 'em wadn't natch'lly open when they carried it to the fair. Interviewer: Did your mama used to sing, uh, "Go tell Auntr, Rhody, go tell Aunt Rhody?" Eleanor: Urn hmm. Susie: I don't remember that. Eleanor: (singing) "Go tell Aunt Rhody the old grey goose is dead." Susie: Oh, "Aunt Tabby." Eleanor and Susie: (singing) "The one she's been savin', the one she's been savin', The one she's been savin' to make her feather bed." Susie: That's what I sing "hen I take my e:Je exercise. (laughter) You know I got--I've got to, uh, hold this pencil up here Ldemonstrates with finger in front of her eyes] and hold it there until I count t"enty by saying one thousand and one and two thousand and one, so "AlLTlt Rhody. I ':J say, "One thousand one, and two thousand one." [Sings to the tune of /.More conversation here about the pictures. Eleanor had ><ritten down the words of the ''BaJ.lad of Mary Phagan" from the "ay she remembered hearing it on the school bus when she "as little. Eleanor sings it here while Susie gets more coffee for us~ (232) Eleanor: '~ittle Mary Phagan, she went to town one day, She "ent to the pencil factory to get her little pay, She left her home at 'leven, she kissed her mother good bye, Not one time did that poor girl think that she was goin' to die. J/ Eleanor: Leo He She (con't) sa'\.8 Frank fell he met her with brutish heart and grin, to Mary Phagan, 'You'll never see home again.' right down upon her knees to Leo Frank and pled, He picked up a plank from the trashpile and knocked her on the head. Judge Roan he passed a sentence, he passed it very well, The Christian doers of heaven sent Leo Frank to hell." jDiscussion here of the coffee and cup cakes and peanut candy Susie had served usJ (257) Interviewer: Did you have any, uh, medicines, like did you tie asafoetida around your neck, uh, when you were little? Susie: I've heard of that--um hum. Interviewer: But you didn't do it? Susie: NO, I didn't. Interviewer: I think Mama did down the country. Eleanor: I heard Aunt Mary say she gave you red clover tea, or scmethin', or white clover tea. What was it? Susie: Well, I don't Imow, I don't remember. Eleanor: She dosed you full of that. She said she gave you quarts of it to build you up. It was to build you up. It was red clover tea, though, it was to build up your blood. She said you got real anemic one time and she just filled you full of red clover tea. Susie: For goodness' sake, I don't remember that. Eleanor: Must have been when you were little. Susie: Must have been. And I don't remember her tellin' about it. Ruth was tellin' about the time, you know the kids used to when--they buried everything they found dead like a little dead bird or somethin'--and I can remember this that, uh, they used to when-- before they embalmed people, you Imow--they would, I believe they would soak a cloth in camphor and put it over their face? Well one night Grandma come in and they had found a little dead bird and Mossy went and got into Grandma's camphor, you know, and they 'uz gonna bury that bird--have a funeral. And she come in there and smelt that camphor and they had that bird all fixed up for burying. (laughter) Eleanor: Mama was sayin' the other night that, uh, they used to get together, uh, and go to sanebody's house, like they'd go fran farm to farm and do the--do the harvest--"hatever had to be got in. They'd get it all in at one plop, and, and the people that lived there, whoever lived at the place, would provide 'em with the food that day. And they'd all do their quiltin'. Said they'd make somethin' like 6 quilts in One day. Susie: The men would shuck the corn, you know, and the women would cook and aJ.J. the--sliced potato pies and I guess hog jowl 'an so on, I don't know what all they cooked. They'd probably kill a hog, you know, for the occasion. Interviewer: Did y'all keep hawgs? Susie: We did, uh huh. Interviewer: Do you remember hawg slaughterin' time? Eleanor: Are you kiddin/? We've had one in the last few years. Susie: Yes. I'd go in the house and cover up my earswhHe they shot the gun. You know I loved everything we had on the place, even the pigs, you know, and I couldn't bear to see 'em killed, but when they got killed and in the sack of sausage I could eat it like anybody else. Eleanor: Did y'all put it up in jars? Put the sausage up in jars? Susie: No, we--we usually sacked it up. We--we'd make the sacks you know and stuff it an' hang it up, you know an'-- Interviewer: Did you have a machine that you ran it through to make it long? Susie: No, we "ould grind it in the sausage mill. We would, uh, they knew just how much salt to add and how much red pepper--ground up, you know, red pepper and sage and, uh, get it all seasoned up and we'd run it through the sausage mill maybe twice so it'd be real nice. Interviewer: And y'aJ.J. made the bags to put it in? Susie: Uh huh. Eleanor: Mama put some in jars that was real good. Susie: Yeah, I guess it was. Eleanor: Stone jars. I don't remember us ever doin' that. I don't remember us ever doin' that. Susie: But you know now the, uh, the sausage we buy--it's good when it's fresh but I don't like it after you keep it in your refrigerator. It's just no good. But I like it when it's a fei; days old, hangin' up in a sack--let it get a little rim around it, you know. 'Course cold weather--hang it out an' it just develops a good flavor. Interviewer: Is that when they slaughter 'em--in the fall? Is that when they--? Susie: When it's cold. When it's cold enough for the meat to keep, you know. have refrigeration then and, uh, 'course when you salted it down and hung smokehouse after it cured it would keep, you, you know. They had methods We didn't it up in the of curing it. Susie: Blood? No, I never heard of that. Interviewer: In one book I--they made blood pudding and blood sausage--. Susie: Nooo, I never heard of that. Eleanor: I've heard Daddy talk about that. Interviewer: And they'd eat everything. They'd eat the--all the insides. Susie: Uh, I've never eat what they call shit--(laughter)--chitlins. (You haven't got that recorded?) (laughter) Chitlins--you know, that was the, uh, oh what is the right name :Il:r 'em? Eleanor: Intestines. Susie: Well I ate 'em when I 'uz in school--didn't know what it was. They got canned, uh, what you call--? Eleanor: Chitterlings is what they call 'em, when they get prissy. Susie: No, no, it wadn't what they called it. I can't think. think of, but anyway, I ate 'em a long time I didn 1t know That's another thing I can't I was eatin' chitlins 'cause Intervie"er: Did you ever--? Did you use the insides? Did you use the blood to make anything? Susie: (con't) I never ate any at home. Mama never kept the, you knaw. But they, uh, they clean all the insides out an', an' wash I em good. They are clean and good as anything, I guess. Eleanor: There's supposed to be two methods of' cleanin' em--dog, dog stretched and stump slung. Susie: Oh. (laughter) Eleanor: Dog stretched and stump slung. You slang 'em on the stump(laughter) Susie: I'll declare. Well naw I think some even, uh, stuf'fed their sausage in those, didn't they? Eleanor: Yeah, you use that just as a natural sack. Susie: We used to get, uh, oh, that was a big day with the kids, you knaw, we didn't knaw what work was--the women knew what work was, you knaw, and the men they'd kill a hog, you know, and they'd--a big ole barrel of boilin' water they'd scald 'em, you know, and scrape the hide off and they was the cleanest lookin' meat you ever sa'1. Hang 'em up, they had a--what'd they call those things? --gamlin' stick, or somethin'? Eleanor: That sounds right. Susie: That they stretched 'em up, they was leaders i~their legs--they stuck them in and smmg 'em up and split 'em open and then those insides'd come out in the tub and all the women'd go out there and they'd clean those--git the lard of'f' that'n and then they'd render that in a big wash pot. And, uh, then the cracklin's, when they'd make the lard, all that good Interviewer: Cracklin' bread. That's "hat Mama talks about. Susie: Crackl:i1l bread, boy, that was good. And, uh-- Interviewer: Where'd you keep your milk and butter? Did you churn? Susie:Well, we, uh, Papa had a cellar and he made a--an elevator to go up and down in it, you knaw. It was just sort of-- Eleanor: He was handy. Susie: He was a handy man, you knOl" just said he saw his mother go up and do,m cellar steps all his life so he made a little--oh, he fixed some cords over little pulleys up there somewhere in the attic and I remember riding down on it when I was little. It was--you, you had ,leights on it so it wadn't no effort to put it do,m and just kind of give it a lift and it, it come up by itself, you know, if it's balanced right. Eleanor: Oh, tell her about the wind harp. I don't know "hy I hadn't thought of that before. Susie: Window harp. Eleanor: Windml harp, that's right. Intervie"er: Hhat's that? Susie: My "indo"s are not, uh, you know it's this kind "ith the sash-- Eleanor: Double sash. Susie: Uh huh. You get a little piece of "ood and split it "here you can put your thread through and tie a knot in it, you know,. "hittle it down "here it's thin enough to push down in there, you know. Big at the top and little at the-- Eleanor: Wedge. Susie: Yeah, wedge, wedge is what I mean. And you "ax that string and you pull it real tight and on a "indy night, boy, that's a sound like a, a sound real pretty. Sound like it, uh, sort 0' like that "Steal away, steal away." Eleanor: Yeah. Susie: It'd go "ay up high and come down--it "as soft, real pretty music. I remember Papa had one one time and this from Roswell came up there to fix our, our refrigerator-- it was somethin' wrong with it, and I believe we was sittin' around the fire and he heard that thing, sez, uh, ''1Yho are they playin' taps for?" (laughter) Tickled me, I knew what it was that window harp; he didn't know what it was. Eleanor: Well, he fooled me with that one time, too. Susie: Did he? Eleanor: He had one sittin' up there in the window and I didn't even know it was there and I heard this, "Do do do, do do dO," and it sounded exactly like that. Susie: It just depends on how hard the wind blew, you know, and it'd hOld and sound lonesome-- Eleanor: And then sometimes it'd sound exactly like, uh, "Steal Away." Interviewer: What's "Steal Away?" Eleanor: ''De de dem, de de dem, de de de de dem." (humming tune) Susie: Uh huh. It was more like that than anything else. Intervie.,er: What's the words? Eleanor: "Steal away, steal away, steal away to Jesus; steal away, steal away home." Susie: You know the first movie, I believe it was the first, the first talkin' movie I ever heard, was, uh, Hearts in ~ and that was real pretty, it was Negras--entire staff, I mean-- Eleanor: Cast? Susie: Cast were Negras and it, and they had a--it was when this little girl died and they had a funeral and they sang that. I'd never thought of that for a funeral song--it was real sweet. Negras winging, though, you know nobody can act like Negras. You've heard that song, hadn't you? Interviewer: No, I don't think so. Susie: Sing it, Eleanor, you can--my voice cracks. Eleanor: My nose's all stuffed up. ;)1 Susie and Eleanor: (singing) "Steal a"ay, steal away, steal away to Jesus, Steal away, steal away home, I ain't got long to stay here. " Eleanor: And that harp would sound exactly like that. And didn't Uncle Sherman used to play the fiddle with it? Susie: I don't know whether he played the fiddle with it, but he played the fiddle. There had to be a sort of a draft where the wind would kind of louder (sic) it--if there was a draft where the wind would go, with the door open, why it would sing real loud. Papa used to fool the kids, you know, and he'd sit by the door and he'd ease it open and said "Stop," and the window harp would stop, you know. "Now play again," and he'd ease that door open, and the kids'd look as Wild, you know--they didn't knO\~ what ,ras happenin'. Eleanor: Yeah, I remember you tellin' me that, and he'd say "Sing softly, harp," and it'd go real soft. Interviewer: Did you have church suppers and box suppers and--? Susie: They used to have what they'd call "pound suppers" in homes, you know. Everybody's take, supposed to be a pound, but it was usually more of a feast, you know. Eleanor: Did you ever read Samantha at Saratoga? That old, old-timey thing? Susie: No, I don't think so. Eleanor: They were gonna have a pound party for this real poor family and she told her husband, Josiah Allen, she always called him 'Josiah Allen,' and he said, ''What on earth do you want to pound those poor people for? They've had enough trouble." (laughter) ~The point telephone and began rings on Track and 2J interrupts us for a few minutes. I rewound the tape at this Eleanor: Tell her about the foot washing business--how they do that. Susie: 'em. Oh, Well, they you used know, to have, they, uh, uh, they 'course had pans, we flat pans, I don't, the Baptists remember those--stacks" of now don't count that as an ordinance of the church, but they used to. Now they just say the ordina:ces are, uh, baptism and the Lord's Supper. And, uh, that's, 'course I don't know, 'course I don't argue, anybody wants to wash feet, well, it's in the Bible, but still nobody mentions it but JOhn, you knmr that other Gospel don't mention foot washin' Hmrever they do mention the Lord's Supper, you know. And keepin' it in memory of the Lord's death. But they had, I can remember when they washed feet. They had church about once a month. Why they didn't keep all the Lord's days I don't know, but it was just every fourth Susie: (con 't) Sunday, I believe, or whatever Sunday they had preaching. And then about once or twice a year they'd have the Lord's Supper--they called it Communion. And they'd--some of 'em'd wash feet, they didn't all. Eleanor: Who paid the preacher's salary back then? Did he have a salary? Susie: They didn't have a salary. They just--when anybody'd have any--well, they didn't .have much money, they, uh, if anybody had some meat or vegetables or anything or whatever they had, you know, they helped the family out and--I know they never did get enough, I know that, 'cause all of 'em had to work you know. And when they had money, 'course anybody that wadn't too stingy they'd pass the plate around. Interviewer: Well, who washed whose feet? Susie:Well the men ;lashed on one side and the women on the other. Eleanor: Just each other's feet, back and forth-- Susie: Uh huh. And they'd, they had a great long towel--they'd tie it around their ,;aist and just--the rest of it hung down. I don't know "hether they make those towels now, but they were made for that purpose. Just tie it around their waist, you know, and then wash feet. Eleanor: Oh, so they could gather up the foot in it? Susie: Uh huh. Interviewer: Did you have candy pullin's? Susie: Yeah. They did. And candy knockin's You ever hear of that? Interviewer: '3,No, what's that? Susie: We'd blindfold 'em, you know, and "e' d hang a stick of candy from the ceiling and they'd, they'd blindfold 'em and if they'd knock the piece of candy they'd get it or get--I don't know "hat the prize was. And candy pullings, yeah, "e used to have those. Eleanor: '" Spelling bees? Susie: Uh huh. Those old, uh, plays we used to have--''Hog Rovers, Hog Rovers, " and-- Hog Drovers is what it really was, but we said Hog Rovers. I didn't know where it came fran--where the word came from, but I've read it sanewhere about--isn't it in Italy or somewhere they have the, the Hog Drovers? I believe Achsah when she visited over in Italy --they had the Hog Drovers, or Drivers, they called 'em Drovers. (singing) "Hog Drovers, Hog Drovers, Hog Drovers we are, A-courtin' your daughter so handsane and fair, Can we get lodging here, oh here, Can we get lodging here?" Now that was, uh, they's one boy would be sittin' in the center and, uh, this girl-- uh, he'd sing back, you know, he'd say--we'd be goin' around in a ring--he'd say: "This is my daughter that sets by my knee And none of you Hog Rovers can take her from me And you can't get lodging here, oh here, And you can't get lodging here." (glancing out window) Red bird out there. And, uh, then he would, uh, then we'd go on aroun' and we'd say: "Shucks for your daughter, much less for yourself We'll go to Kentucky and better ourself And we don't want lodging here, oh here, And we don't want lodging here." And then he would choose a certain person in the ring, you know, and he says: then he would choose a certain person in the ring, you know, and he says: "This is my daughter that sets by my side, And Mr. So-And-So can make her his bride And he can get lodging here, oh here, He can get lodging here." And then they would change places some way, I forgot just how the play went. Eleanor: Was that thing that you and Mama used to play, was that somethin' you made up about "Make my home in Sandy Land?" Susie: I think Flo and, and Clif made that up, I don't know where--where they--where that originated, I don't knm,. Vie used to holler it at one another, you know. Vle'd holler that and the other'n'd answer back and we'd have to holler pretty loud--I couldn't do that now. Eleanor: That must be the equivalent of "Ail-y, All-y, Ails in Free." They'd say, "Make my horne in Sandy Land, Susie" or "Make my home in Sandy Land, Flo." I don't know what they were talking about. Just sornethin' they made up. Susie: If Flo ,las here she could think of sorne things, I guess. 30 Eleanor: I was wantin' to go over there to her house. Mama was tellin' something, she said flo used to eat, 00, raw potato peelings, but she didn't know that she had that habit. And she said they were walkin' aroond out in the yard and Mama stepped on one, out in the yard now. And it made Flo so mad she nearly died, and said they >Tent in the house and she said, "Mamer, fount me a tater peelin' and down ccme ole' flatfoot right on it." (laughter) Susie: I didn't know that. I'll declare. Eleanor: "Momer." Was it Marvin that used to say, 00, "I want some syrup and bread and burlm,?" He said ''burlow'' instead of ''butter,'' for some reason. ''Momer, I want some syrup and bread and burlow." Interviewer: Eleanor says you play, uh, an instrument--auto harp? Susie: Urn, no-- Eleanor: Yes, you did. You used to play that. You had one over at the other house. Don't you remember? Where you pressed dmm the chord and went "thrumm?" I don't know >There you got it, but you had it over there at the house. Susie: Hell, I probably borrowed it--I never did own one. Papa had a banjo--he made it-- got burned up. He picked that and Edna picked the guitar and she played the piano. Mama'd sing and we'd have us a, uh, you kncm-- Eleanor: Family sing? Susie: Yeah. We'd sit onthe porch at night and Papa'd play the fiddle. Eleanor: And revivals. They made a big thing out of the protracted meetin's. Susie: Yeah, uh huh. Yeah, Mr. Early, he was a droll fellow, but you !mOl' that man could preach. That's James's grandfather--James, our choir-leader. I told him--he doesn't remember him--I said, "If I get to heaven I hope they'll have one sermon of his recorded that he preached from the thirteenth chapter of First Corinthians one time." I said ''No theologian ever lived could beat it." 'Course I can't remember how it--much about it, but, uh, he was a drollest old fella'--just as green as he could be--raised up in the mountains, and I think he used to make likker. You know, he 'uz converted. I think the fire fell from heaven or sumpin' and caused him to see where he was goin'. Anyway, they--it was a very spectacular thing that happened to him. (laughter) I was little when he preached there -- 3; Eleanor: Susie: Struck by lightnin'-- But, ub, anyhml he--let's see now, one thing he said, uh, we--you know now you don't know nothing about sheep, but Mama and them they used to raise sheep--Grandfather Rucker used to keep sheep, and they had a log that--they called it the "lick log"--they'd put salt on that and the sheep ,lould come up there and--,lhen they needed salt. So YJT. Early was preaching and he said ''We're commanded to feed the sheep, but how we gonna feed 'em if they don't come up to the lick log?" (laughter) You know, he was raking us over not comin' to church. Eleanor: Who was it used to have the geese that would take a flyin' spell and run into the light wires? Susie: Huh?': Eleanor: Somebody down there close to Uncle Joe had the, the geese that would get out and start flyin' and they'd--their wings would touch both-- Susie: Oh, Uncle Dave owned some geese. Eleanor: Was it Uncle Dave? Susie: Uh hub. Yeah, they, they had spells of flyin', you know, they'd, they'd fly--and they'd get up--when they'd--ff they'd sat on one ..ire that wouldn't hurt, you know, birds light on wires all the time, but they was so broad winged, like if one of 'em'd touch this ..ire and the othern the other'n, why they'd just drop dead--they were electrocuted right there. They had one electrocuted every--every so often. Eleanor: And didn't y'all used to have to look for hen's nests when the hens would go off and hide their eggs? Susie: Yeah. Eleanor: That was fun. Intervie..er: (referring to an earlier discussion) ,fuat'd you call Coca Colas? Eleanor: Dope, and Georgia Beer. Susie: I'd forgot about that. They used to have a dope. I remember that. I didn't know it was called Georgia Beer. I guess that--they served it down there before I i;as very much familiar with it. We didn't have things like that much. But where they were--the works-- I guess they had it available and they called it Georgia Beer. Interviewer: Thought it wasn't good for you? Eleanor: They thought it was habit forming. ~Tell, it started out as cough syrup. Intervie,ler: Really? I didn't know that. Eleanor: Uh huh. It started out as a cough syrup. Susie: I didn't know that. Eleanor: Then whoever it was--the druggist--pharmacist--invented it--then he, he turned it over to Mr. Candler or whoever it was that wound up ,lith it. Susie: I knew it originated in Georgia. Eleanor: Oh, didn't Grandfather Rucker walk home fran the--wherever he i<as wounded? Susie: I don't knQi'. I don't remember that, but he was a-- Eleanor: I think I've heard Uncle Nap say that--said 'be follered ole rocky ridge." Interviei<er: From Virginia? Eleanor: Uh huh. Followed the Appalachian Trail right into Crabapple. Says, "ole rocky ridge." Susie: I know he was wounded, and uh, his-- Eleanor: Had a rifle ball in the arm. 33 Susie: You know, hi, uh, his "ife--Grandmother Rucker--,ras married twice. She married a Jamieson the first time and he was killed in the Army. And, uh, then Grandfather married her and I think he was on crutches when they married. I've heard that. Eleanor: Hnnn. And Tom Jamieson was this son of him, yeah. Susie: Mama's half-brother. Uh huh. Uh, Grandfather Broadwell, now he was, you knml they didn't have any "ay much of communicatin t then, and, uh, but after the Surrender, uh, "e didn't, uh, (I say we--I wasn't even here) but, uh, Grandma didn't kno>. whether he was dead or alive--there-was about a month I think that, uh--he had had typhoid fever and he came walkin' up one day with a beard, you kno>.--he never wore a beard, but she recognized him. And so his mother--now that's what--that's the way the Lord takes care of us now, you know, "hen a thing like that comes along--his mother lived up about Arnold Mill and, uh, she called him--and his name "as James--she called him Jeems. And, uh, she said "I dreamed last night that Jeems come home," so she took her foot in her hand and she walked d= here and sure enough Jeems "as here. Eleanor: That was Gtandfather Broad"eil? Susie: My Grandfather Broad"ell's mother. Eleanor: Jeems? Susie: Jeems, she called him Jeems. And Grandma--my grandmother--(and Ruth reminded me of this the other night, I forgot about that) Ruth, you knm. was here, Aunt Printa, her mother--when she was a baby--uh, Grandfather built this house do"n here, and, uh, they, they moved from Arnold Hill downihere. Well Grandma walked and led one child and carried this other baby in her arms and drove the cm. dm.n there. And, uh, in the meantime the calf got all the milk. (laughter) So, uh, when she got there-when she got moved she had to send over to Uncle Rucker I s after some milk for the baby. Didn't have a drop. Eleanor: The calf just "alked along and drained the cm.. (laughter) Susie: Uh huh, yeah. (laUghter) Oh la,,! [susie went with Eleanor and me to the Rucker Cemetery in Crabapple. On the way there we passed the old house "here Susie was born--not lived in nm.. It was dusk by then and the pictures of the house did not turn out;] Tape 2, Track 2 (184) Flo:That's me? [Eleanor had aJ.so brought the old pictures over with us on our visit with Flo;] But I used to know a lot of old songs and old, uh, uh, you know--I remember the--we used to call 'em speeches at school that I'd heard--learned. Intervie~ler: Oh, that'd be good. Eleanor: Recitations and things? Flo:Yeah. Interviewer: Like what? Recitations about what? Flo:Well about--lemme see, oh, I don't guess they'd suit you.but, uh-- Interviewer: That's "hat Mama says, ''You don't "ant this." Flo:Well, uh, like uh-- "Oh don't go away until you hear a story, though it may seem queer, By a funny name of, by the name of Ump-ha-ha--by a funny family"-- (you've not got t'on?) (laughter) Have you? Interviewer: I'm playin' aroun' "ith it. Flo: (laughing) "Oh don't go a~lay until you hear a story of a family know both far and near By the funny name of Ump-ha-ha. Mr. Ump-ha-ha one day thought he'd like to take a sleigh and ride upon the frozen snow, And ~lrs. Ump-ha-ha said she'd go, and takin' all her family of course, including too the family horse; It was a mule and a thin one too, you could see his ribs where the hay stuck through, They hitched him up to an old time bob--then you ort to have seen the mob, There was Patrick and Mary Ump-ha-ha, Grace and Cary Ump-ha-ha, Mike and Freddy Ump-ha-ha, Willie and Eddie Ump-ha-ha, and Big Fat Jammy Ump-ha-ha. Fifteen people in one sleigh started out to spend the day The way they packed and jammped them in, it made the family horse look thin. As luck "ill have it, as it will, they started from the top of the hill. The hill "as slippy, d01m they flew, how fast they went, they never knew. 37 ~ Flo:(con't) It "as a mile to the bottom and the bottan was mud; they all went down with a siclmin' thud. Mary Ump-ha-ha "as dad (sic), Patrick Ump-ha-ha was crazzed (sic), Little Willie bumped his nose, and Big Fat Jammy, she got frozed. Fourteen doctors come at once. Did you ever see a dead mule lyin' around? It took four drays to get them home and when they'd found they broke no bones They all sit dm'll and thanked their stars and then laughed out ''Ump-ha-ha!'' (laughter--Eleanor and I "ere slapping our knees hysterically) Flo:I'd'a swore I couldn't remember all that--I don't know-- Intervie"er: Well, did you say it at school? Flo:Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: Well, did you have a recitation day, at the end of the week--? ~~ Flo:Yeah. Eleanor: All the mamas and daddys would come? Flo:Yeah, that's--that's "hat "e'd have, you lmow. Well, that 'uz ,;hen I 'uz just small. But after I got bigger they'd have, uh, these, uh, these plays..like, but, 00, that 'uz--oh, I used to lmow a lot of them old things but my mind can't, uh, bring 'em back. Interviewer: Well, tell me about the chicken again. Flo:Dh, well, uh, tell about, 00, us a'sayin', uh, "Make my home in Sandy--?" Interviewer: Yeah. Flo:Well, us cousins was livin' in hollerin' distance and, 00, so we got up a, 00, just a--I don't know how come us to get up something. He'd just holler at one another ,;hen we wanted to talk. And we'd say, uh, ''Make my hane in Sandy Land, Clif," that's when I'd want CUf and, uh, then I'd--maybe all three of us'd be in it at the same-- ''Make my home in Sandy Land, Susie," so, uh, ,;e'd holler ever'--jest ever' fe" days to one another, and, uh, so (tell about that ole' hen?) Interviewer: Yeah. Flo:So, uh, my aunt had a, a, some chickens and they, uh, they'd, uh, lay their eggs up in an ole', uh, uh, barn and so, uh, one of my cousins went down and scared her off the nest and she laid as she flew off and he caught the egg, and uh, after that we got to sayin', ''Make my catch in Sandy Land." Eleanor: That was Uncle Reid? Fi,o:That'z Reid. Newt:Yeah, that 'uz Reid. Me and him used to set together at school and pulled Sally Harmon's har' and got three licks from the teacher aCross the shoulder. Had long plait of hair, you knOH, and we'd get behind and give it a jerk. Flo:When Aunt Julia and them lived down thar', uh, I 'uz dmm thar--we stayed together most of the time, I mean bet"een the houses--we wouldn't stay in the house--"e played down thar in the branch and, and Mama hollered and said, uh, for me to stay dmm there, they wuz a mad dog comin' down that >lay and so me and Clif and Reid and all of us out thar playin' we run and with our clothes on and jumped in bed and covered up. That, uh, I thought that was the a"fullest thing in the world, but I was just scared to death--every one of us "as just--"e never did see a mad dog, you know, and we thought that was-- Intervi"",er: Do you believe in ghosts? Flo: (shaking her head) Um um. Do you? Interviewer: Yeah. Flo:Do you? (laughter) Well, I tell you when you found out,the--it's not real. I knOH one time Rachel spent the night here--my sister?--and she brought her friend, that's, uh, she's, uh--I'm fifteen years older than she is--she brought a friend and stayed all night. And--I aA.ways did like to scare people--and I'd scare myself, but I didn't knm, what made me. But I always liked to scare people and so they decided they'd go down at Marian's--they were all about the same age--they went dmm there and stayed awhile and "hile they's gone I made it up I was gonna get a sheet and get down there and, uh, behind a tree-- Ne>lt:The bank wadn't high then. Flo:No, that wuz before they graded down the bank. I got dmm there and I seen 'em comin' so I went and ,,alked out with that sheet, yOU.knOH. That liked to scared them to death. They just had One fit after another and they squalled and they squalled-- (laughter) . Ne"rt; I 'uz on the porch when I hollered--I couldn'--fell down on the porch an'-- said, f1Plo __ " They wuz squealin' so, they Flo;I said, "It's me! It's me!" But they 'uz a-screamin' to the top of their voices. They said they never would get over that with me. (laughter) But I don't know what made me--but I always did love to scare-- Interviewer; Was--ever--didn't you call 'em hants? Flo;Yeah, they call 'em hants. Eleanor; Well did anything ever happen--I don't mean like a joke--but anything real like that? That made you think there was one around? Flo;No, I don't remember. I don't remember a!1Y--might if I could, you knm7-- Interviewer; Were you farmers? Flo;Yeah. Interviewer: Did you have any superstitions about farmin'? About when to farm? Flo;Uh huh. Yeah. Eleanor; Plant by the signs? Flo;Planted in the moon-- Intervie..,er; At the, at--what part of the moon? Flo;Well, uh, they had to be the--in, uh--had to plant the Irish potatoes in Mar-- dark nights in March. Interviewer; Really? Flo;Yeah, that's when they'd plant potatoes and they'd make more potatoes. And the moon had to be in, uh-- Newt:Full moon in March, wadn'tit? Sumpin' Dark night-- Flo:Dark nights. And, uh, and then they had to--they planted their beans when the sign was, \1aS in the head, wadn't it? I think it \/Uz in the head and if you planted 'em when they uz in the arms they'd bloom theyself' to death. That's what they--people, well Pa--my daddy didn't do that, but they's a lotta did--that did. And Aunt Jenny, she didn't do that either. She'd just go out an', an' say "hocus pocus" and her beans'd come up--she'd have more beans in this country than all put together. (laughter) Flo:Yeah, you remember hm, she used--what a good garden? She had the best garden. Newt:She'd put tub of leaves in the fall and spread all over 'em--that uz to make it stay soft and moist. Flo:Yeah, she'd put all the leaves-- Eleanor: There \1as something Daddy told about. He said that if a cow had got the fever in her bag, that they'd go dmm to the creek and get a nice flat, uh, rock--that was nice and cool, you kn01,--and wet--and bring it back and put it on the cow's bag, and as soon as the rock got \1arm with the fever, they'd take it back and put it exactly in the same spot where they got it and it would take the fever out. Flo: (laughing) Yeah, I've heard of that. I forgot it though. Newt:We used to run 'til our sides commenced hurtin' and we'd stopsand pick up a rock and spit on it and put it back and it'd quit hurtin'. Probably you wuz rested a little-- that \/Uz the reason. I imagine nml, I don't kn01'. That's the way we'd do, though. Flo:Your side'd quit hurtin'. Uh, uh, Mama one time lost her broom and, uh, you know we used to make brooms--get 'em out of the field, you know, broom straw? You ever see--? You ever--? Eleanor: She wasn't superstttious, she'd just say ''hocus pocus." Flo:Yeah, she \1adn't superstitious, she'd just say ''hocus pocus" and they'd--boy, they'd have the beans to burn 'em. Newt:Who, I>ltl.ss Jenny? tfl Interviewer: Uh huh. Flo:And, uh, every fall we'd get, uh, get enough of the--that ole' broom straw to, uh, make our brooms the rest of the ;year. And, uh, she had one, new one made, and she lost it and, uh, she didn't know where in the world she'd lost that broom. She'd looked all over that place and she said, uh, she believed somebody got her new broom. She believed somebody stole it. So I don't know how long it was--she dreamed one night where it was at and she 'lent and she really found it--where she dreamed it was at. So I reckon that's--dreams'll come true--some of 'em. Interviewer: Did you make soap? Flo:Uh huh. Mama used to make soap and I did too. Interviewer: What did you use--ashes? Flo:No, she, uh, she bought her potash, but Aunt Jenny and Grandmamma used to run potash out of the ashes but Mama bought her Red Devil Lye. And she'd save all of her, uh, meat skins, you know, we always kept hawgs an'"she'd save all of the meat skins an' she'd, uh, she'd put about two buckets of water in a wash pot and put her potash in thar' an' her meat skin, and she had a stick and she'd stir it and stir it 'til all that meat was eat up with that potash. Ever' bit of that meat would be eat up. 'N then she'd put about three more buckets of water in thar' and stir it 'til it bar'ly come to a boil again an', an' then, uh, she'd take the far all out by mornin' that'd be just as hard--the best soap--just as white-- Newt: I remember how they used to cut it. Flo:Yeah, she'd--used to cut it in squar's--and she used to make soap that way. And we used to have corn shuckin's. Papa used to raise a lot of corn but he had to pay rent--had to pay Grandfather rent--and he'd, uh, have a big crib of corn and, and, uh, he'd invite all of his brothers and sis--uh, brothers and brother-in-laws to, uh, the corn shuckin'. And she'd begin the day before and, uh, cook, uh, pies an'--and, uh, maybe cook a ham--she'd have ever'thin, ready the day before, then the next day she'd make her pies. And she'd cook a chicken pie in a big ole' oven--she had a 'arn oven--and she'd, uh, make her chicken pie in that. An', uh, make potater cobbler--sliced--a big ole'--had big ole' pans in--boy they had the best time. They don't have things like that now. But us kids'd have a good time too. They'd play houses an'--the kids don't play in play houses now. They have these little Barbie dolls. Interviewer: Did you have any games? What--what did you play? Flo:Well Vle'd play in the play house an' Vle'd play, uh, VIe had, uh, used to make fire balls. But our parents wouldn't let us if they kllO"Hed it, but we'd slip and make 'em. Yeah, we'd take big ole'--git rags and just Vlrap 'em just as tight as Vie could and sew 'em and then Vle'd soak 'em in kerosene. And, uh, at night, you knOVl, and Vle'd thrOVI them and ketch 'em right quick an' tho' 'em back. Eleanor: Guaw-- Flo:Yeah. Th--it v/uz, it v/uz right pretty you knOVl-- Intervie"er: Did it burn? Flo:No, it didn't burn. We 1wuldn't let it--wouldn't keep it any--long enough. I knOVl, uh, one of my cousins, Annie Gentry--you don't--Clif knOVIs her-- Eleanor: Flo:kne", IntervieVler: Yeah--an', I've Vlhat heard it is? uh, of that she name. had on, uh, Vie used to call 'em fascinators. \fas it of net? They VlUz--do you Flo:Uh huh. It 'uz, uh, knit and it had, uh, fuzz all on the outside and she--it 'uz night and they made us war' sumpin' on ar' head--they Vlouldn't let us go bareheaded-- and, uh, it hit her head, and her har' just sViinged over (sic)--I mean that fascinator did--just swinged over--that liked to skeered us to death. They liked to give us a whippin' for that. Yeah, that,lUz dangerous--if it'd a been her har' now, it'd, uh-- Vlhew. She'd 'a had a, uh, permanent permanent, Vlouldn't she? (laughter) Eleanor: She'd 'a been bald-- Newt:Cousin----Rucker used to make,uh, rumtar, do you remember that? Flo:Yeah. Newt:Rum tar, and he had a tar Wagon-- Flo:Yeah, he'd, uh, rumtar and--in a bank he'd have a big ole' pot and, uh, he'd make his enID, uh--that was good, uh, tonic. He'd, uh, put that tar in a bottle and pour Vlater on it, you kne"" and it ,loi!Ild scent it. 13 Eleanor: Oh, yeah, tar water. Ne'7t:Yeah, made out of pine-- Flo:And it was good for you, they claimed. I don't know if it was or not, but they claimed it was. Eleanor: I bet it was a terrible dose. Flo:No, it wadnlt too bad. I used to, uh, I'd--we never did have any but when I'd go over thar', uh, I Id taste it but it >ladnIt too bad. You know we used to che>r pine rosin for chewin' gum--you remember? Eleanor: I got a mouth full of that when I meant to get sweet gum and I couldn't get that rosin off my teeth. Flo:I knOl' it. That's the way it-- Eleanor: It was in the cracks all in my mouth. Interviewer: Did you, did you have tobacco? Flo:Uh, we didn't never, uh, raise any tobacca, uh uh. Eleanor: This is not tobacco country--south Georgia-- Newt' " Mr. Davis did. Flo:tlho? Newt: I remember Mr. Davis, since >Ie 'uz married, raised some cig--and he rolled cigars out of it. Cigar--you knO>l out of them leaves--regular cigar tobacco that >ras--and then he had, uh, he twisted them things up, hang 'em up-- Interviewer: t1hat ls rabbit tobacco? Eleanor: ThatIS just that greyish lookin' stuff that boys try out before they start smoking. Flo:My brother used to smoke that--he'd, uh-- Interviewer: Yeah, Mama did too. Flo:Yeah, and I did too. I used to smoke that. Oh, and Cross Vine, did you ever--? Interviewer: Uh uh. Flo:This is a vine that grows in the woods and it, uh, it, uh, you could cut it and you could just get it started and it'd just peel apart and it had holes in it an' "e used to smoke that. But-- Intervie"er: Was there anybody in the connnunity that you all told tales about? A noted liar, or strong man, or anything like that? Flo: No, I don't knm,. Eleanor: These are honest f'olks up here, what are you talkin' about? told her about John B. Broadwell. Hell Grandf'ather brought in we had up here, didn't he? Put it in himself'. (laughter) We've already the f'irst telephone Flo:Switch? Uh huh, yeah. He had the s,/itch and he didn' charge anything for, you know, to switch from one-- Ne,Tt:Yeah, he had a big thing on the wall-- Flo:Uh huh. You'd call over there, you know, and he'd switch you over on your--another line. And Aunt Jenny and Frankie both, they'd, uh, you know he didn't do--didn't work-- he wasn't able to 'lOrk then an' that just suited him. Interviewer: Who was that? Eleanor: Grandfather Rucker--General (to Flo) We've been over to the Rucker Cemetery and she's got the names, you kno;l. Flo:Sure enough? Oh, ain~t that the skeeriest place? I-Iby I remember one time--you remember ..,hen them three women got, uh, mis--uh, missing? They went into this forest and they never did find 'em. And they had been seen some men in there, and--or one man, I don't know whether it was more than one or not--anyhow these--I don't know what them women ,<liZ doin' in there--anyhow, they never did come out. So it wadn't long af'ter that 'til me and Alma--Eleanor, you kno;l the, they's Newt's sisters--we went over here, Flo: (con't) we just--one Sunday we decided we wanted to go over thar I an' look, and we got over thar' an' thar' wadn't no--you kncm it was so lonesome. I said, "This is--seems lonesome just like that whar they said that--them three ,Icmen never did come out. Boy, if we didn't come out of thar. (laughter) (1O) Tape 3, Track 2 (Starts on Track 2, then Track l) Alice: I use the same chords for 100 songs. And that's basic. And I think what happened is they picked up something and they strummed it and--to fit, or like myself just to fit the voice range and then they could go on and on and on with thosestrums. Intervie>,er: , Urn hum. Did your mother play an instrument too? Alice: She plays the piano and the organ. Lorraine: By ear--just as she (gesturing to Alice) plays the guitar. Alice: And all her brothers play the guitar, and the harmonica, and jugs, and piano, and bass fiddles, and everything. Intervie1,er: Did you all get together around the piano and sing? Alice: They did. And we were small--we sang with 'em a.'1d watched them and then later th--I think that's why I went home and learned this so that I could join in those sessions. Lorraine: Oh she yodels--that's what I love. My uncle taught her to yodel. That's just 1nld. {'laughter) All right, "Ole' Dan Tucker." Alice: (singing) "Ole' Dan Tucker ,laS a good ole' man Harshed his face in a fryin' pan." I forgot it--oh, this is gonna be a'lf'ul. I can't do it. (laughing) Lorraine: Coward. Alice: All right, good. Cheer me. "Ole' Dan Tucker was a good ole' man Warshed his face in a fryin' pan. Combed his hair with a wagon wheel Died with a toothache in his heel. Get outta' the way, ole' Da.'1 Tucker, Get outta' the way, ole' Dan Tucker, Get outta' the way, ole' Dan Tucker, You're too late to get your supper." ~ Alice: (can't) That thing--I hadn't played that in--'cause we thought of it last night. Lorraine: Go ahead with "Barbara Allen"--that's a good start. Alice: Okay. I--let's tell her about this first. Lorraine: Oh. Alice: I thought of this last night thinking of haunting melodies. And we hadn't, uh-- I hadn't thought about it in years, and my father used to sing it, and my mother used to sing it, and they 1-,ould mainly sing the chorus. So I called her because I couldn't remember it--see, when I had talked to my grandmother that, uh, and she had said that quadroon was Irish,and Grandmother and Mother were of the conception that quadroon meant one eighth of anything. But Father specified that it was one eighth Negro--that his father and his grandfather sang this song, and it dates back to before Civil War and there's hundreds of verses and she said she'd try and write down what she could remember. And the basic story is that the quadroon was seduced by the white man, and then he left her and she withered and finally died during childbirth. And then the colored man that loved her would sing this--it's sort of a lament over her grace--and we don't have all the words, but--I'd like to go into--- "Oh my pretty quadroon, My flower that faded too soon My heart's like the strings on a banjo All for my pretty quadroon. u Oh my pretty quadroon, My floHer that faded too soon My All heart's for my like pretty the quadroon." strings on a banjo I've never heard that recorded. Uh, I don't know where we'd find it. Father said he thinks it comes from Nashville--that his father came from Nashville. Lorraine: I spoke to a woman today, uh, we were just talkin' about it in Art History, and a ,,oman behind us who is--what, she may be forty--I don't knOH if she's quite that old-- uh, she had heard it, but she couldn't remember the words to it. But she remembered the name and that it was a Civil War Ballad. Intervie"er: Urn. It's lovely. Alice: So that's one. And I--I'm just trying to think of something really old that I never heard anY'vhere but from the family. And there's a couple of others--I wrote 'em up here, but to begin >1ith, I only heard them in the family, and when we moved to Chicago there were two blind singers that sang some of these songs, and they were from Nashville. So apparently all this migratim from Nashville to St. Louis and, and-arried these songs--and one of 'em 1-'as "Put My Little Shoes Away." So Intervie"er: Oh, do you know that? Alice: Yeah, I'd heard Grandmother sing that, and then they were the only other people that "e heard sing them--Mack and Bob. "NOH come bathe my forehead--~' (had trouble with the chord) Lorraine: Lost your forehead. Alice: Yeah. "'No-" come bathe my forehead, Mother, For I'm grmnng very weak, Let one drop of water, Mother, Flow upon my burning cheek. Tell my loving little playmates That I never more shall play Give them all my toys, but Mother, Won't you put my little shoes away. You will do this, Mother, Hon't you? Put my little shoes aHay, Give them all my toys, but Mother, Won't you put my little shoes away. Santa Claus, he brought them to me With a lot of other things, Then I think he brought an angel With a pair of golden "ings. You "ill do this, Mother, "onlt you? Put my little shoes a"ay, Give them all my to;y-s, but Mother, Won't you put my little shoes a"ay. I " That's old. Intervieuer: Uh, we mentioned that in class. Alice: Oh. And, uh, something that I only heard, uh, I heard it sung iJ{the family and then again these blind singers, about "TI<e Little Girls in Blue," and I tried to do some research on it, and they said that it dated back to the Civil War, but lIm not sure. Intervieuer: Who were the blind singers? 51 Alice: Uh, Mack and Bob. Uh, Lester McFarland and ,;hat was Bob's last name? I can't-- Lorraine: We lived near their farm. Alice: But very, very old and were from Kentucky and Tennessee, and sang together as boys and just came on up and they knew all these folk songs. But they were really-- Lorraine: Both were blind--but they could play-- Alice: "Two little girls in blue, lad, Two little girls in blue, They were sisters, we were brothers, We learned to love the two." (laughing-Jit 's been so long,'she said.) Alice and Lorrain: "One little girl in blue, lad, Stole your father's heart Became your mother, I married the other But we have drifted apart." Alice: That's it. And I've never heard that, but there-- Lorraine: ''Who's Little Girl"--I love to hear that. Alice: I'm so nervous--I don't knOH what-- (laughter) Lorraine: I'm enjoYing it. Alice: "\-Iho's little girl are you, Who's little girl are you, .-lith hair so blond, and eyes so blue, Well I wish I had a darlin' like you. Who's little girl are you, Who's little girl are you, With hair so blond, and eyes so blue, Well I once had a darlin' like you. I once had a darlin' like you, I once had a darlin' like you, Her hair was blond, her eyes were blue, Well I lost my darlin' like you. Alice: (con 't) '~o's little girl are you, Who's little girl are you, With hair so blond, and eyes so blue, I wish I had my darlin' like you. " Lorraine: Do you know that's the first time I've gotten the implications of that song? It--it's like the one today that you know of--"Roses are red, violets are blue--I signed in your book here--someday you'll have a daughter--someone'll sign her book too." It's this--he sees a girl that looks like the girl he loved--a child. Alice: Yeah. That--that's what it's supposed to be --a child. And he wonders if it's-- Lorraine: Uh, it's just never dawned on me. Alice: There was a certain period of time like the, "The Little Shoes" and ''The Little Girls"-- Interviewer: Sentimental ballads. Alice: Yeah--very sentimental, and on children and the death of children. Lorraine: Do you remember "Asleep at the Track?" Alice: l've got the words at horne--I wish I'd brought them. '~sleep at the track was an old--" Lorraine: That's one of my favorites. Alice: Yes. And he went out and pulled the switch--and a letter edged in black-- Lorraine: Mother used to sing that. Interviewer: Oh, you don't remember it though? Alice: I've got the words to that at home. 53 ~ Lorraine: (singing) til heard the postman coming yestermorning He whistled as he came along the path But he little knew the sorrow that he brought When he handed me the letter edged in black. With trembling hands I tore the letter open And (hums) I read just what it said Come home, my boy, your poor ole' father wants you--needs you Come hom, my son, your dear ole' mother's dead." (laughter) Interviewer: (to Alice) You can yodel. I can tell from--how did you learn that? Alice: Uh, my Uncle Paul taught me. And he yodelled. And he said, uh, that it was, uh, he taught it to me in a sense that you would never be alone. That you went out into the mountains and into the hills and you would call out and it would answer you back, and you wouldn't be alone ~lhen you, uh, did your chores. He had this, uh, thing where you know he always thought he was a great ranch hand--(laughter) Lorraine: Yeah--it was a coupla' hundred acres out there of nothing. (laughing) ~ me(sniff) Alice: Yeah--he'd go riding around on this old plug and yodel. (laughing) Lorraine: Give us your Swedish yodel--the one you were saying--your, your Alpinish-- Alice: I don't know if the acoustics will bounce it here like outside. Lorraine: It I S bound to. Alice: Yea--you need to, uh--he taught me how to throw it and drop it and bring it back, and you do, you need acoustics for the Alpine yodel. I don't have any idea where he--do you?--where he got it? Lorraine: Unless he taught himself'. Alice: And how he taught me letter A--and he said to to break yodel it. was A--E, unique A--E, 'cause and he keep started doing with that, a letter--the and with different letters~-O. 0--00, 0--00. Lorraine: It f S a vowel. Alice: Uh huh. And tryin' to say different things like A--E, A--E, I--E, I--E, yodellotoo-- fhere follmis a discussion of yodelling with Alice standing in the middle of the room and aiming her voice at each wall to tryout the acoustics~ (295) Interviewer: Oh, that's 'iOnderful. Alice: You have to be in the mountains. And that's folk singin'. (laughter) That's your own. And they make it up and slap their feet and they do dances--sort of--(demonstrates) Interviewer: Oh, I saw that in Austria. Alice: Yeah, they do--Austrian and Grman-- Lorraine: And als 0 American yodelling has come afar, far way from that. It's really-- Alice: Yeah, it's--what would you say?--commercialized? Lorraine: Well, no, it's unique in its min way. It doesn't have the-- Alice: It doesn't have a reason. Intervie,ler: When do they use it ncrl'l, do you know? Lorraine: Hillbillies do a lot of it. Alice: Yeah, hillbillies, but still not, uh--in 1946 and '48 it was predominant with Elton Britt. Lorraine: Quite popular on the-- Alice: Yeah, on the barn dances-- Lorraine: Well it wasn't really a folk music they were singing--what was it-- Alice: NO, it was, uh, well let's see-- Lorraine: It wasn't really cowboy, it was sort of a-- Alice: No, like we were talking--Elton Britt, uh, he did most of the yodelling. And he would sing a song like: (singing slowly) "I'm tying a-------- so they won't fall down So Nellie won't go a"ay." And the "hole song was just actually a yodel "ith "ords. That, too, is possibly an old song. jjorraine begins to sing "Barbara Allen"--Alice the versions she can renember on a large piece has written of cardboard, the about words 3 down from feet high. is a brief discussion of which tune and which words to begin with~ allThere (334) Alice and Lorraine: "In Scarlet Town where I was born There was a fair maid dwellin' Made every youth cry 'Well a-day, I And her name was Barbara Allen. In London City where I did dwell There lived a fair young maiden Made every lad cry 'Well a-day, ' And her name be Barbara Allen. All in the merry month of May ,/hen the green buds they were swellin' Sweet William grey on his deathbed lay For the love of Barbara Allen. He ,irote her a letter in rosy-red lines He wrote it slow, SlO1~ and movin' , "Go take this letter unto her And tell her I am dyin'.' He sent his man unto her then To the place where she ,las dwellin' 'Come with me, please (oh, you must too) --------- If you name be Barbara Allen.' She took the letter in her lily-white hand, She read it slow, slow and mavin' 'Go take this letter back to him And tell him I am comin'.' Then slowly, slowly--" Alice: There's t"o different verses--let's sing this one and this one--two different things. "Then slowly, slO1dy she came up And slmdy she drew nigh him And all she said .,.,hen there she came 'Young man, I fear you're dyinl''' (Lorraine sobs, .,.,ith her hand clutched to her bosom. ) Alice: Then we'll sing this one. ''Miss Barbaracame unto him then To the room where he was lyin' And all she said when there she came, Was, 'Young man, I fear (Lorraine talks these words) you're dyin'.' He turned his face unto her then With deathly sorrow sighing, '0 lovely maiden, pity me, For I am surely dyin'.' II Alice: Second verse on it--two different versions, yeah. /There is here a grinding sotuld in the tape which is tulaccountable--it does clear up further on./ '~e turned his face tulto her then In deep breaths siliowly sighin' And begged :Cor her to tell him then Why she did e'er deny him. 'Do you remember in yonder town, While drinkin' in the tavern, You drank a toast to the ladies fair But you slighted Barbara Allen.' (Lorraine., turns up her nose haughtily.) 'Oh, I remember in yonder town While drinkin' in the tavern, I gave a toast to the ladies fair But my heart to Barbara Allen. ' He turned his face tulto the wall And death was drawin' nigh him, 'Adieu, adieu, my dear friends all, And be kind to Barbara Allen.' As she walked down the long, long stairs She heard the church bells ringing And every knell it seemed to ring 'Unworthy Barbara Allen.' As she 'Ialked down the lonely path She heard the birds all singing, And every bird, it seemed to say, 'Cruel-hearted Barbara Allen.' She looked to the east, she looked to the west, She saw his cold corpse comin', 'Go bring his pale corpse tulto me That I might gaze upon him.' 51 Alice and Lorraine: (con't) Tche more she looked, the more she grieved, She busted out to cryin' Sayin', 'Pick me up, and carry me home, For I feel like I am dyin'.' 'Oh Mother, Oh Mother, go make my bed Go make it long, long and narrow Sweet William died for me today I'll die for him tomorrow.' And on her deathbed as she lay She begged to be buried by him And sore repented of the day Tnat she did e'er deny him. They buried Sweet Willie in the old churchyard They lay his Barbara beside him On vlilliams' grave there grew a rose On Barbara's grew a briar. They grew to the top of the old church tower 'Til they could grow, grow no higher, They tI,isted, they tied in a true lover's knot, The red rose grew 'round the briar." Interviewer: Oh. That's lovely. Alice: That's all that we've picked up--all through the-- Lorraine: That is terrible how we sing it so differently, and she taught~. (laughter) Alice: And Grandmother taught me. And then I'd hear other people singing it, and pick up verses from them, 'til finally from this notebook and another notebook, and I've put it on cardboard--(laughs) And is there any other that I wrote down that was just in the family--no, unless it's "The Pretty Little Shoes" and everybody pretty well knows that. Interviewer: Do you sing to your children? Alice: Yes, they can't stand it. They say I'm a cornball. (laughter) Now for them you have to do things like this, see--I have to get hep for them 'cause they see this stuff on TV. (plays a little ditty) I have to play all this back stuff for them, you know. And then I picked out something the other day, uh, and they'll listen to it. (plays and hums melody of "Barcarolle. ") 53 Tape 3, Track 1 Interviewer: And explain when you did it-- Lorraine: The fact that all children have to tell ghost stories and be scared is personified by Bill Cosby's little taJ.e of, uh, "Scare me, scare me" with the chicken heart. (laughter) Children love to be frightened, even though it really upsets 'em, and, uh, we were living at a time of radio, spook stories, "Inner Sanctum" and ''Lights Out" and things like this. And fear was a very important part of our lives. So, uh, in Chicago when all the kids would get out on the streets--there were no automobiles-- but on the steps, and tell frightening stories, we were unable to do so and Mother passed steps: this [Lorraine one to us tells that the she following had done story, out on very the streets dramaticallyJ of St. Louis, on the "One evening, Mary's parents went out to supper and Mary was left all alone. However, she was not a ~ little girl--she was old enough to take care of herself. And although it was dark, she knew that everything would be fine, after all the lights were on. But as the evening wore on and Mary had to go to bed and the lights were turned off, the world changed a little. And Mary just didn't seem to like the same thing. She lay there qUietly in bed, and she listened, and she decided she'd turn on the lights. But when she did they wculdn't go on. So there was nothing to do but lay there silently in bed. And then she heard it. ~Thumps on the table--one-two-three). It sounded like steps coming from way off. What was it? And then she listened and she heard a sound, a voice far away--''Mary, I'm coming to get you." And then these steps got closer and she could tell that they were on her street, and the voice was louder and it said, ''Mary, I'm coming to get you." And then they were on the sidewalk outside her house, and she could hear the voice even louder and it, it sounded even worse, ''Mary, I'm coming to get you." And then up the steps, one, two, three, and it was at the front door, and the knob turned and the door opened (squeaks slowly), ''Mary, I'm coming to get you." And then footprints were heard on the steps (thump, thump, thump) coming up to the bedroom, ''Mary I'm coming to get you," and outside her bedroom door the knob turned--(loudly) ''Mary, I've got you!" (laughter) Alice: The oldest spook story I ever heard was ''Little Orphan Annie." Interviewer: "Has come to our house to stay--" Alice: Yeah--on a cylinder record--in St. Louis. Mrs. Bartew--if I would eat all my soup, and it was bad soup--with the cracker~hichwere 100 years old--because they were very elderly--they kept a Model T in the garage on--and they only drove it on Sundays to church. Interviewer: Who was that? 5} Alice: and and These had they Victorian were would our allow neighbors f'urniture me to-- and and had, they uh, adopted lamp me--Mr. shades made and Mrs. out Bartew--very of multi-colored old, glass, glass, Lorraine: All in vogue today--(laughter) Alice: Yes, yes, indeed. And they would allow me to crank this machine with the cylinder on it. And this voice, you know, saying ''Little Orphan Annie," (she sings it as it sounded on the cylinder) and my pigtails would stand up. Interviewer: Do you remember it all? Alice: No--at one time-- Interviewer: ''To wash the cups and saucers up, and brush the crumbs away." It got terribly frightening. Alice: Yeah. Oh, I wish I knew all of it. Oh, it's, it's horrible. I'd be--my heart would beat and I would crank the machine faster and it would..(makes sound like the machine made cranked up fast). (laughter) Well, all right, now wait, I--thinking of one other thing that was on that machine that was so old. Lorraine: Oh! Oh no! "Red lUng." Alice: Yes, ''Red Wing." Have you heard of "Red Wing?" Interviewer: No. Alice:Well, I can't remember the, uh, the--I remember the chorus, but I can't remember the front, uh, let's see-- "There once was an Indian maid da 00 da de da 00." Lorraine: "rhat kept the campfires burning? Da--sit all alone--hm hm hm hm hm" As she cried her heart away." [They hum some more of the verse and Lorraine describes what is happeningJ Lorraine: Her Indian boy had gone--he'd been killed in a war. Alice and Lorraine: "Now the moon shines tonight on pretty Red Wing The breezes sighing, the night birds crying, Far, oh far 'neath the stars her brave is sleeping While Red Wing's weeping her heart away." Alice: That's Indian, and that's-- '\fuo's gonna shoe my pretty little feet Who t s gonna glove my hand Whds gonna kiss my red ruby lips And who's gonna be my man? Who's gonna be my man, love, Who's gonna be my man, Who's gonna kiss my red ruby lips, And who's gonna be my man? Lorraine: Oh, how I used to listen to that. Alice: Yeah, in the middle of, uh, in Missouri, that was a big one, and who sang it on the cylinder record? Lorraine: (gives a demonstration of how he sounded when the machine was cranked down--singing through her nose. Both launch again into a rendition of the above chorus, and there is some conversation trying to remember who sang it on the cylinder.) (66) Lorraine and Alice: Papa's gonna shoe my pretty little feet Sisters gonna glove my hand And Mama t s gonna kiss my red ruby lips And I don't need no man. I don't need no man, love, I don't need no man, Mama's gonna kiss my red ruby lips And I don't need no man. The longest train I ever did see Was a thousand box cars long The only man I ever did love Is on that train and gone. On On that that train train and and gone, gone, love, The only man I ever did love Is on that train and gone. to I Lorraine and Alice: (con't) Now who's gonna shoe my pretty little feet Who's gonna glove my hand Who's gonna kiss my red ruby lips And who's gonna be my man?" Lorraine: I love that. She's so bitter. I never sang the last verse to it. I always ended it with--she starts out with--who's going to do this, you know, and then she tells who's going to do it, and then suddenly she just explains through the longest train she ever did see and her man was on it and gone. Alice: Another one sort of like that that's the woman bitter is, uh-- ''Love, oh love, oh careless love, Love, oh love, it's care:Ess love, Oh, it's love, it's careless love, You see what careless love has done. (from Lorraine-- "Ab hah. ") Once I wore my apron low, (from Lorraine--"oh yesl"--as she makes a gesture Once I wove my apron low, symbolizing a ~ow-cut gown.) Once I wore my apron low Well he followed me through rain and snow. Now I wear my apron high (Lorraine makes gesture symbolizing rounded stomach.) Now I wear my apron high Now I wear my apron high Well you see my door and pass on by. Love, oh love, oh careless love, Love, oh love, oh careless love, Oh, it's love, it's careless love, You see what careless love has done." Lorraine: I love that. Alice: They tell stories. Something else, uh, that's bitter like that if you really think about it: Together!'On top of old Smokey All covered with snow, I lost my true lover, For courtin' too slow. For courting's a pleasure And parting is grief, But a false-hearted lover Is worse than a thief. Alice and Lorraine: (con't) For a thief he will rob you And take what you have, But a false-hearted lover Will send you to the grave. And the grave will decay you And turn you to dust, Not a man in ten thousand That a poor girl can trust. So come ye young maidens And listen to me, Never place your affections On a green willow tree. For the leaves they will wither And the roots they will die And you'll all be forsaken And never know why." Lorraine: Did we sing 'he'll hug you and kiss you'? Alice: No, we didn't sing 'he'll hug you and kiss you.' Lorraine: Did we say, 'there ain't a man in ten thousand'? Alice: Yeah, we said 'there ain't a man in ten thousand.' But say 'he'll hug you and kiss you. r Together:"They'll hug you and kiss you And tell you more lies ("ah yeahl--from Alice) Than cross ties on a railroad Or stars in the skies." Alice: That's it. Now that's it. There's a whole section of bitter songs there. (laughs) Then a whole section of jailhouse songs, and railroad songs. And I tell you a song that I believe about twenty years from now--it took 'em so long to write it and the story has passed down--will be ''Wolverton Mountain." That, that is a true story. There was a girl kept on a mountain, and this was true, and finally someone wrote it down. And I believe that this will pass on because the story in it passed about him, with his bear--the bear iIPuld tell him if the boy tried to sneak up the mountain. And I, I give that as a future predic--projection--(laughter) Lorraine: Of a folk song. Alice: 'Cause it's a true--you know, handed down--(pause). What else1 Lorraine: (begins hunnning from a paper Alice had brought) Alice: Yeah, that's is dein Goiman handed down, because father's family was German. Let's see, and I wrote it down, uh, because I forget 'smerzchen.' Lorraine: We never--we never say the words right. We--we just make German sounds. [They begin a song using German sounds--the tune is ''You, You, You Are My True Love." Then they sing together in English~ "Just one look at you, and then I knew, we'd never part, There'll never be but one love for me, You are the one love that lives in my heart. You, you, you are my true love, You, you, you are the one, Oh, no, there'll never be one, Here underneath all the sun. Just one look at you, and then I knew, we'd never part, There'll never be but one love for me, You are the one love that lives in my heart. (as Lorraine sings ''you, you, you" on the same tloo, note, 00, 00. Alice IT) soars up the scale, You, you, you are my one love, You, you, you are the one, Oh no, there'll never be one Here underneath all the sun." Lorraine: Now I'm just gonoa hum the melody so you can go--with that part, 'cause I love to hear you go--(indicates with her hand the way Alice goes up with "00, 00, 00. ") Alice: Oh that1 Well, you're supposed to end it that way--you're supposed to go--(here Lorraine hums and Alice goes "00, 00, 00"). 'Cause that's just a long yodel in an Alp song. Lorraine: Oh, I see. I'm gonoa have to learn it. Alice: And I can't think of anything else that--let's see we did the English side of the family, and we did the German side of the family, and we did the hillbilly side of the family-- fiorraine There follows sings a discussion ''Too Ra Loo of Ra their Loo Ra," ancestry: and "I'll Scotch-Irish; Take You Home English-Indian; Again, Kathleen." German and French. They settled in Nashville. Their grandfather Copeland built the courthouse in Nashville. sings: Alice sings part of' "There's a Tavern in the Town." Then Lorraine "He told me he loved me, but oh how he lied, Oh how he lied, oh how he lied, He told me he loved mel, but oh how he lied, ( Ohl How he liedl"J (318) Alice: Did you think of' the other one we used to sing as kids? "Slide down my rain barrel. La la la cellar door And we'll be jolly f'riends Forevermore. It Yeah, I just remember that. I hadn't thought of'that in years. That's an ol.d one. Now what else? I had sanething-- Lorraine: (to the tune of' "He told me he loved me, but oh how he lied") Oh, how I cried." Get's real bad, doesn't it? I mean-- ''Went up to heaven and flip flopped my fly--? [General remarksJ Lorraine:''Way down in Columbus ~'i'ailhouse Want to be back in Tennessee--" A1.ice: Move it up a key. Lorraine: Okay, you hit it. Together:''Way down in Col.umbus jailhouse Want to be back in Tennessee, Way down in Col.umbus, Georgia, Friends had turned their back on me. Go away and l.eave me if' you want to Never let me cross your mind In your heart you love another, Leave me, l.ittle darl.in', I don't mind. Leave me, l.ittle darl.in', I don't-- Leave me, little darlin', I don't-- Leave me, little darlin', I don't mind." "I went to the tavern and cried in my beer, Cried in my beer, cried in my beer, I went to the tavern and cried in my beer Alice: Something else in Georgia that's, lib, I heard it here for the first time, in Augusta. "In the pines, in the pines, where the sun never shines, And you shiver when the cold windblows The wind in the trees brings memories Of a love that I once knew. You caused me to weep You caused me to moan, You left me alone and so blue, In those pines, in the pines, in those old Georgia pines--" (laughter) And anything else? Lorraine: I thought we've really skirted the religious issue. And, lib, do you know-- (singing). ''Life is Like a Mountain Railway?" Alice: " Yes, we did. And they used to sing in their get-togethers. Alice and Lorraine: ''Life is like a mountain railway With an engine - - - - You must make the run successful FrQIl the cradle to the grave. Watch the turns for spills and troubles Never falter, never fail, Keep your hand upon the throttle And your eye upon the rail. Blessed Saviour, thou wilt guide us 'Til we reach that blissful shore, Where the angels wait to join us In thy praise forevermore." Alice: I almost forgot that. Good thing you're here. You remember better than me--I'm gettin' old, an'--what other ones did they--besides '~recious Memories" which they sang all the time? Lorraine: Oh yeah. (to Interviewer--"Have you had enough of us?") Interviewer: No! Goodness. Alice and Lorraine: "Precious memories, how they linger How they ever flood my soul, In the stillness of the midnight Precious sacred scenes untold. Precious memories, how they linger How they ever flood my soul, In the stillness of the midnight Precious sacred scenes untold." Alice: Can you think of anymore? We're trying to think of the ones they sat around-- pick up strictly from memory. Lorraine:''Gather 'round me and I'll tell you a story Of the mountains in the days when guns were long, When two families were a-feudin' there was bound to be some shootin', Gather 'round me and I'll tell you what I found. Oh the Martins and the Coys, they were reckless mountain boys, At the art of shootin ' (forgets) They could shoot a feller quicker than it took your eye to flicker, They could knock a squirrel's eye out at 90 feet. Now the feudin' started out one Sunday mornin' When Old Grandpa Coy was full of mountain dew, Just as quiet as a churchmouse he stole into Martins' henhouse 'Cause the Cays they needed eggs for breakfast too. Oh the Martins and the Coys, they were reckless mountain boys And ole' Grandpa Coy has gone where angels live, When they found him on the mountain he was bleedin' like a fountain They had shot him 'til he looked just like a sieve. Now the Coys they started out to avenge him And they didn't even take time out to mourn, They were off to do some killin' where the Martins were distillin 1 And they found ole' Abel Martin makin' corn. Oh the Martins and the Coys, they were reckless mountain boys And ole I Abel Martin was the next to go, He had seen the Coys a-comin' and had hardly started runnin I When a volley shook them hills and laid him low. Well after that the fightin' started in in earnest And they scarred up them thar' hills with shot and shell, There were uncles, brothers, cousins, say they shot 'em by the dozens Just how many bit the dust is hard to tell. "Oh the Martins and the Coys, they were reckless mountain boys At the art of shootin' they became adept, And though they knew they shou1.dn't do it, long before they even knew it, On each side they only had one person left. Now the sole survivin' Martin was a maiden And as pretty as a picture was this Grace, While the one remainin' boy was the handsane Henry Coy, Folks all knew that they wou1.d soon meet face to face. Then one day they met upon a mountain pathway And as Abel (sic) raised his gun and aimed at Grace, He was, set to pull the trigger when he saw her pretty figger, You could tell that love had slapped him in the face. Oh the Martins and the Coys, they were reckless mountain boys And they say them ghost's a-cussin ' shook the hills, 'Cause the hatchet sure was buried when young Grace and Henry married, They broke up the best dern feudin I in their hills. Now you may think this is where my story's ended, But l'm telling you them ghosts don I t cuss no more, For since Grace and Henry wedded, they fight worse than all the rest did, And they carryon the feud just like before""
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Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions.
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