The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com.
In the interview, Ernest Hodges explains how to construct a violin and how he tests wood to make the perfect fiddle. He explains that he has been crafting violins for thirty years. The conversation returns to how to assess the quality of wood for a violin and where to buy it. Specifically, he prefers older wood, which he typically buys because it has character in its sound. He tells a story of a master violin maker who listened to trees fall as they were cut down in order to find one with the perfect sound. Next, Ernest shares his knowledge of the history of master violin makers like Guarneri and Stradivari and about to determine if an instrument is counterfeit. Ernest compares the use of horse hair and nylon for violin bows, and he explains how different instruments require different types of hair. Regarding a violin's construction and workmanship, Ernest enthuses how the instrument is a work of art. He discusses the history of the first violin, which he credits Gasparo da Sal for making in Italy. He talks more on the history of master violin makers and how the violin has evolved. Elaine Williamson asks about Ernest's family traditions, and whether he knows of instruments that date back to the "Lost Colony," presumably Roanoke. The interview stops then starts again, and Ernest talks about the banjo, its structure, its history, and how to play it. He compares the fiddle to the banjo and the guitar and how they're used in classic folk music. The interview stops once again and then restarts with Ernest, Carol Hodges, Vaughn Saxon, Mr. and Mrs. Roberson, and Ed Carpenter playing folk songs including: "Katie Hill," "Cripple Creed," "Cumberland Gap," "Never Alone Waltz," "Cacklin' Hen," "Leatherbritches," "Blackberry Blossom," "Billie and the Low Ground," "Jim Crack Corn," and "Buck Creek." The musicians chat between each song.
Vaughan Saxon (1912-1987) was born in Georgia to William Bennett Saxon (1883-1925) and Ella Saxon (1888-1925). He served as a Private First Class in the United States Army during World War II. He married Bessie Ruth Saxon (1911-2003), and the couple had one child, Mary Lou Ashton (1933-2009). Ed Carpenter (1903-1968) was born in Georgia to David L. Carpenter (1881-1964) and Caroline Carpenter (1886-1969). He lived in Milan, Georgia, married Betsy Carpenter (1905-1988), and had two children, David Jackson Carpenter (1924-1955) and Maude Vaughn (1922-1988). Carol Hodges (1922-2007) was born in Georgia. Ernest Hodges (1907-1984) was born in North Carolina and grew up near Lexington, Kentucky. He served in World War II. He married Beatrice G. Hodges (1907-1978), and the couple had no children. He later married Darlene Collins Hodges (1932-2008); the couple moved to North Carolina and had no children.
Brotherhood of Banjoists, Fiddles
-~-~--"''-; ~-~ ...-~~"-""--~-~~-- . t~__.J "'L' -" 1. brnie: So you're interested in the fiddle. Elaine: Yes. Ernie: And interested in the method of construction, something about the noble instrument. Well, the violin is made of , I j wood as we" know. It's the first violin of the orchestra, the result of masters over the centuries. It's made of two kinds of wood: maple and spruce. Now the maple must be well seasoned, preferably old, and naturally cured, not artificially or kiln dried. The spruce must be of good t@_ nal property, as well as the back or the sides and all. Now, the problem of the maker given good wood is to construct the instrument so that every detail-- a thousand or so--will come to a point, that point being a fine instrument in every respect. Elaine:How do you determine whgt the tone of your wood is going to be? Ernie: Now, that is an interesting problem. Without the good wood, as we know, you can't make a good instrument, any more than a coach could produce a fine singing voice in someone who did not have a good voice. You must have the potential in the wood and that's one of the most important things. Many years of experience will help ~., and once one has tested some wood, he will know, if he is a good violin maker, he will know its potential. Then he will know how to combine woods to get certain effects--sort of marrying the woods, if you know what I llh.-1Un .. __ ~ w ~ ~\ "-; r-~----~ ~ -, , J~ <' 2:. Elaine: Is that why you 1...1.88 the tVfo different kinds? Ernie: Yes it does, it adds certa.i:.n qualities, tambre, certain qualities we don't get any other way_ Ho'!;':, the thic1rnessing of' the wood, very important, the air space., the curvature of the top, all those things enter into it. The slightest ch~nge will change the general quality of the tone. Now, the sQundpost is one of' the important features inside the instrument, the basS-bar, a long black bar running lengthwise of the instrument sitting under the G string, the soundpost sitting back of the A string ( He indicates these positior60n the violin he is holding). Those are important factors. Now it might interest you to know that only ODe or two things have happened to the instrument since the day of the great masters. The string length is slightly longer today because our scale is about a half a step higher_thaI} it was in tileir days, and it's often been said that a Stradivarius would SOillld better if tuned a half step lovier. Also to compensate for that extra string length, a slightl'l longer bass-bar running the .length of tije instrument, about ten and a half or eleven inches glued to the bottom of the top, underneath. 'fhose are the tvlO things that have happened, the only two. Otherwise ~e c~~not improve on the old ~~sters. You ~ight be interested in knowing why Stradivarius was so great, or ~~y of the masters. Well, they ~era not scientists, but the/ were experimentersand their predecessors v..'ope. ..... "; .-- I '-~ I r- ,--...>_, .-. ~' 3. developing by. trial and error--to perfection. The violin was really cOllinlete with Amati, before Strad, but Strad improved it slig.':1tly with a little more volume for larger concert audiences, retained the sweetness of Amati, yet getting the volume. Now, and since they reached that ultimate, no one has been able to go past. them. Of course there is one consideration which we know, that age and playing has a lot to do with the value and tonal properties of the violin; the longer it's played the better the tone will be, provided it's a good instrument to begin with--a cheap instrument will always be a cheap instrument regardless of its age.~ That sou~ds reasonable, d08an't it ? Elaine: Yes. How long have you ~een making violins? Ernie: I've been making violins for about thirty years and I have made them as more as a hobby than anything else, just one, two, or three a year. Two or three years during the War years I didn I t make any at all. Elaine: I think I've heal>d something about your getting your ovm wood for these violins. Ernie: Yes, I'm always looking for wood. live searched everywhere. I was fortunate au first in finding a few pieces of wood, Vlood that had been cut in 1865 for gun stocks in the mountains. ~laine:Was that around here? Ernie: Yes, in Union County, near Blairsville and I used some or that wood. That instrument on the left you see hanging there is made of that wood(He points to the violin hanging behind him). Elaine: How did you happen to find out about this? Ernie: A friend of ours, at that time I was with another violin - ... ~"' ....-. ,.'- .. ~l 'i,. JIIj I 4. maker in Atlanta, a friend of ours, came in one day afid said "I know where there's some wood," and he told the history of it. He lived there and he said, "I stopped 'em just the day before they were going to put it into hog pens and asked them if the' d (sic) hold off. H We said we'd make 'em a violin for that wood and so we got quite a bit of it. Some was not good, but some of it was fine, and beautiful wood, and very old and authentic. Some other wood I found that was cut for picture fr~es in 18S0 I've used, I have some of that left, ~Dd some ~rom-- a lot of my maple I have acquired from the Carolinas, the mountains around Highlands and up in that section, forty or fifty or sixty years old and some around the Indian Reservation. ~laine: Do you buy this from someone who has already cut the wood or is this .. Ernie: This wood that I have so far was cut years ago and has jus t been lying around in attics or . Elaine: Stored away somewhere. Ernie: Yes and I knew what it was. That's how we find wood. Finding wood is not a thing ,'ou just go out and do. Elaine: I'm sure it isn't. Ernie: You go out and search for it, and if you're lUCky, it's like gold. You might find it. Elaine: Do you necessarily need old wood to make a good violin? I"----' ,'. ! Ernie: One must have Ii'lood aged at least t:en ;rears, so that there will be no further shrinking of it, but I pr~rer it ~lch i i " I I iiI ; -~-- - t:--' ..----~~-. ~---- I, '''-~_.. o. older than that. I prefer it much older. Some of the violin makers in the past searched allover Italy-- furniture, cabinets--to find this wood and their best instruments were made from that old wood thee' found. Now, as to the actual making, every piece of wood is a law unto itself and should be treated accordingly. T'he rate of vibration through one piece of wood may be different from that of another and I use a sort of wave length idea to make all instrument. I've found that by measur- Audience: Uh-Huh. ,I I Ernie: ing the various angles and curvatures of the finest Italian . masters, that it could be compensated for Yvith about the scale length of C to D. In fact, one experimenter, Sevar(sic) of, France a hundred years ago, philosopherscientist did much experimenting' on these instruments he stated that every Strad, blowing into the F hole would give the note C or C~, and that the back would be D, the tone of the back as a whole would be D and the t,op vwuld be C. So it has been found that b~ tuning the plates, the top and the back one step apart, better results are obtained. II ~ '1 J Elaine: And how do you determine this? Ernie: 6y holding the back at a certain place and uh by sounding it. Elaine: By tapping it on the back. Ernie: By tapping it one can get the true tone of the piece as a whole. 11 , -- \ ~- l_~: i 6. ~laine: And you get this by listening. "rnie: Yes, by listening and you could check with the pitch f'ork tuning f'ork and the instrument is usually thicker in the middle than at the edges. Now concerning the instrument itself', it's put together entarly(sic) with glue; no nails, no pegs, anything, just glue, and. there T S Quite a story about glue. I have opened instruments at least two hundred years old that were as dif'ficult to take apart as if they'd just been recently done. Elaine: ,~here do you find this glue? ])oas each maker have his ovm .. Ernie: :rJ o ... Elaine: recipe? Ernie: I buy my glue which is made in western Europe especially for violin makers. It's the Old-fashioned glue, and,you can see the glue pot thar(sic) it's two parts in two parts so it will par-boil, and I use it for makinp; of the glue. It's a special job to do and to get the right consistency is very important. Now "ith this nack(indicates neck of violin) you see the scroll. I start with a piece of wood; a square piece of wood, nearly square about two inches thick each way and start carving. I lay a pattern on and mark it out genarally and than I carva with littla hand tools tha scroll to match the instrUIl1ent. It's an imDortant part of the violin. NoVi the 'wood is a little thickar in the middle of. the instrument usually than on the edge~ and the thickn~~ss is gPHduHtGd ver'y evenly, it 3hould be, very evenly graduated. The accessories you seF, the fingerboard and- the pegs, those are just fitted: 'they're not - - c , \ ~ 7. part of the essential violin, they're just merely fitted on and they can be replaced, but the body of the violin is the important thing. And now we come to the varnish, which is very important, for the fine old violins have beautiful varnish that has stood the test of time for all -" the years. In fact, the old Cremona varnish has been a lost art since 1760. No one knows exactly how or why or how how the old varnish was made. After 1760 a good deal of commercialism entered in the fiddle business and they made fiddles more hurriedly and with an inferior varnish, and today no one can say for certain. Every year someone comes out with a neW varnish supposea to be the old one, but it soon fades away. We never hear of it much longer, and in fact you'd have to wait a hundred or two hundred years to be positive anyway. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: It must be, hm'.'ever, an oil varnish. Now, I mix my own varnish, and I take pride in that, because I know the importance the varnish has to the wood. A spirit varnish is hard and does not influence the tone except in a de~rimental sense. Now, you might ask--I can anticipate some qU8stions,.that you miV1t ask-- AUdience: Laughter. Ernie: for instance, how many fiddles did Strad make, or how many masters weY'e there. (Omission here at: \ S "e,,", , He talks about StradivHri's life Hnd the numher of in3truments he made). L.' , . i ,_. f ~ j ; ~ 8. I t~~e a year to complete one of mine. Elaine: How mcmy dirrerent types of instruments do you make? Ernie: I--oniy or the violin ramily: just violins and:'liolas, so rorth. However, the principle remains the same up through the bowed instruments. Once a duke of Spain I believe it was sent ~~ order to Strad for a quartet or instruments; the strings: violin, viola and cello. Arter waiting t~o years he sent his agent down and told him to stay until he got his instruments. Strad was waiting for the varnish to dry for it to mRture, to be just right berore he delivered. Now, you might wonder, you see stories in papers, very often, concerning a new rind. Someone has discQvered a Stradivarius in their attic or picked up a Stradivarius rrom the garbage can. I've examined many or them and I've never seen a Strad yet obtained in such a way. In fact there hasn't been a genuine find in more than a hundred and fifty years maybe more. Elaine: How m~my do we know of now? Ernie: We know of several hundred. I have color pictures of a good many or them, and so they have been accounted for. It's possible that one could remain but there wouldn't be a chance in a million. The thing that many people go by is the ticket inside, which can easil:; be taken out and replaced at will. Elaine: ':How,whHt is a ticket? Ernie: The name. ) I ' ~) 9. i Elaine: They actually put a piece or paper inside? Ernie: Yes, Stradivarius had a ticket, all the great makers had their tickets \:Jri tten either on. skin or parchment or something 2Jld gl~Bd inside. You could read the labal, the ye ar it Vias made and by 1,yhom .. ~laine: Haven't you remade some of these very old violins? Ernie: Yes, I have repaired a number or rine old instruments and have enjoyed the privileGe or doing that, ror it's quite interesting to study what the old masters did. However, one cannot measure art, and no matter how carerully one calipers an instrument and duplicates it no matter how accur"te he is, he'll never have a Strad. The principle itself mast be followed in order to produce anything fine. And you don't follow a principle just by measurements, not i~ art, certainly. So, there are very few fine instruments left, that is, loose, around the country. They're in collectors' hands or in the hands of the artists. I have examined, I suppose I have examined twenty :five or fifty instruments sent to me each year- and have ror twenty or thirty years and I've never discovered a great wasterpiece yet, that wasn't already known of and had papers with it. Ilye seen some good instruments, worth having, some very good instruments, and occasionally one by one of the lesser masters, but none by the great masters. So, a Strad in one's attic is a rarity indeed. Audi:.ence: La'"ghter. l I , ~_r Gharlie: v.... ou were telling me a little vlfhile ago about the horse hair for \Tour b01HS. '1'ell us about that. " Ernie: Oh, yes, the hair is Iln important thins They've tried to use--as you-know, hair is stretched in the bow bow 10. is rehaired with hair to pro~uce the tone, raw with resin -on it. Horse hair, of course, is the finest thing,ever been found. Nylon has been tried, and other things, hut it's not good, ann usually the northern horses: Siberia, some in Canada, differ'.omt places, have hair Ions enclUgl1 and white that will do, but it is very high now. Retails l:lain6: Ernie: now at about one hundred and t"enty dollars a pound. How much dOBS it take to do one bow? Well, we used to think about twenty five bows to the pound, is about what we consideY'ed, losing some of the hair--the imperfect hair is thro~~ away. The finest part of the hair is used. be"more and it might not. I Dever did count it, might It wouldn't miss it very far, I suppose. And the hair is usually turned both ways, 'so thestickeY's on the hair will approach the string going or coming, dovm or up bow,ho~ever you play. Charlie: You use basically the same type hair for any sort oi bow, cello bow, or . Ernie: Probably a little coarser hair for cello or bass. Yes, probably a l~ttle coarser, usually. However, one can use the sa.'1le, belt -it's better to use bow hair a little coarser for the cello 'thHn the violin. violin are 'bout the same. The viola and , . ~.) ll. I---"', Charlie: What's the type of wood you use making a bow? Ernie: On, the bow is a field all its own. The French became the great bow makers. Torte was the greatest, he was the Stradivarius of the bow. The wood that he chose, that has been superior to all other wood is known as Pernambuco-- Pernamhuco is a province in brazil, a~d not all wood from Pernambuco is the right but a certain type, of sort of reddish wood, makes the finest bows, and it is a very rare wood, very hard. Probably it's I think it's harder than eborq. It's very hard wood, very difficult to work, but will polish itself, and Torte never, they say tie never used varnish on his bows. Itve never seen one that had varnish on it 1 Ji~st an oil finish and the wood itself highly polished has a fine finish on it. The bow is a very important adjunct to the fidale. One of the great conductors said the modern bow is the only reason we have a Beethoven's symphony. The bow was arked(sic )--it was areal"boV/::-arked, as originally in Mozart's day, but Torte changed that. He curved the bow the other way,giving it certain qualities that it didn't have previously and no one has ever improved on a Torte bow, and they'r6 worth, aw, up to most any price, a thousand, tl,'iO thousand dollars if you can eet one at th8.t. There were a good mBnY fine bow makers, but Torte was by far the greatest. Elaine: Do you make those too? Ernie: I can 1 t get the wood, unfortunate. I'd love to make bovis ':-- \ -._~ -' -t \~ ! . r ~) 12. but I can't get the wood good enough I hHve some Elaine: Ernie: bov! wood, but I don't have enough to go into, into thHt field. There's not a wide variety of wood that can be used .. No, if I could tHke a trip to South America I mi&~t fiDel Some dOY'ln there in the provinces. There are people however who ffi8ke a business of getting wood and I possibly could find it, I"don't know, I've never tried. wnat limited time I've had, I've spent on the old fiddle. Audience: Laug..l}ter. Charlie: I imagine you've gone to some pretty great lengths to find your wood. Ernie: Yes, I have. Everyone thHt finds good wood must go. to a lot of trouble. Yes, it's real difficuLt to find and it must be old. In the first place it's difficult to find old wood. They don't put this old wood in houses, old houses. They might occasionally, in::a mantlepiece or someplace like that. But they do not just build it out of that sort of wood. Charlie: Of course, it takes some pretty large pieces of wood to .get the size, that is solid front and bacl{. Ernie: Yes, it tftkes a good mature tree. A young tree is not very good and there's another thing about wood. To get fine tonal wood one must find a tree that has gro\T.n under nature and been tossed by the wind and the elements. It's developed character'. 'Ehe tree tlHlt groVis sheltered .j ~ I!1I ! j !j J ! L---....t; ~ -'_. _~_. ~ --_'_--~--,-----i ~- '"'-----_... 13. by all other trees such as a person might be, sheltered, will grow sappy and will not be strong and if you cut the pther trees it will fall, or likely to. So the tree, there I s a lot of character in wood. We don't know what the old wood has, we don't know that. There's some stories. Styner, the greatest German maker, they used to tell that he would go to the mountains and the Tyrols knock on trees and till he found one that sounded right or he would have, or listen to the loggers cut down trees, and if one rang just right when it hit 'the ground, he would get that to make his fine violins from. &"!o. others carx'ied ita little farther, said he'd always select his wood from the south side of the tree, yes, nopth side wouldn't be so good. South side. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: Of course that's pure ~rth, cause the sap flows allover. But, an:rway, a lot 01' people believe it. But many a story; the violin of course, has more ~!th and more rom~ nce and more myste0' than any other instrument m~_'s ever created. And 1 really believe, that the violin is the finest piece of art that man has yet created. Those that will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a painting has a one or two dimensional thing that only can be seen. The violin not only is a beautiful tning, the most beautiful curves kno~~, but it has art in its workmanship, in its entire essence, in its varnish, and above all--What can it say? Over the centuries, and it 1 1l say 14. a different story with a different performer. It's the nearest thing to human. And if the human supplies the brain, it's just about human. blaine: Since you know so much about the violin, can you tell ::-:me if the violin originated as the violin, or if it developed from something else? \ iIIi Ernie: It had an evolution, of course. We know that the violin was not at one time,.when we had many other of the boed instrurneniJs: the contrabasses, the viola d' amour, aIld the other instruments, the larger.' instruments, the viola. In fact, the violin comes, the word comes, . from viola-- the little violin--the lit"le viola--is the violin. So we think that we give Gaspar de Sallo in northern Italy in Brusnia, credit for making the first violin. And he's the first we haVe any evidence of. (Onit here 94 feet--discussion of the histo~i of the violin and many old nakers). Chnrlie: To a master is there a great amount of dif1'erence between iI 1 I and the other like a bass? nierius tone from that of a Stradivarius. Is it generally softer or deepe~? a Guarnierius and a Strad? Would one be like a soprano 1i IIj j 1 11 -) I In a certain period of A little more somber, we might say and yet some of them are--he varied his instruments considerably. Some of ference in the ta.'TIbre. I can usually recognize a C,uar- There's some differ'ence in the taIubre of tone. Some difthem are much thinner tonea. Charlie: Ernie: Ernie: ----------------------------------- 15. Guarnierius' life he built instruments smaller. Naturally a small instrument would not have quite tbe vol"T.tne. Charlie: Uh-Huh. Ernie: But some of' them, the period in the forties bef'ore he died, forty up to f'orty five v!ere probacly his most powerful instruments from the stfu'!.dpoiht of volume. There is a difference. Bis construction was someVulat different from that of Stradivarius. Elaine: To change the SUbject a little, I believe that Popa Williamson told me that there is almost a almost a legend I S-llppose in your family abo').t how you might. have originally come f'rom the Lost Colony. Ernie: liVell, I wouldn't say there's a legend there; I donlt know that mlYone couLd prove such a thing. In fact, it I s probably pretty well established that the Colony really was los"t. Audience: La~lghter. Ernie: HO\76Ver my people did come ,i'"'rom that neig11borhood from at least two sides of' the house, ~~d the mountains of' North Ca'lina and Virginia. However, at a rather early age, several of us, two or 'three different families mig!'ated to the hill 'and mountain countr:r of Kentucky, and there I greY{ up, in i"Centucky. Elaine: Well, the reason that he thousht that you more or less were sure was that--didn f t you bring some instru..YJ1ents wi th you from there that could possihly be traced back to Bn~l~nd or Scotland rrom that spot? IJ J j1 1 1j , l \II j I Ernie: 16. Well, there were some or them, I haven't seen some of the instruments thRt they had. I don't know where-the dulcimer came rrom. I don't know, and some or those old instruments. He probably--yol.l kna~v, in those days, the early Americans, if' they had anything, they had to make it. So they's. make an instrument if they neaded it. In fact, that's how I learned to do things with ~T h,mds; we had to when I grew up. On the farm we had to make things. Get:u,,,",some wood and just make it. l~, ii Ii ~ ,I I Ij 1 Ernie: Now, the story of the banjo is somewhat different from that of the fiddle. The banjo is strictly Americana; the only true American instrument, and it originated in the south. Now, of course we know at first it was a very crude instrument and, uh, but it was later quite a sophisticated instrument. The,uh, banjo players continued to want better and better instruments and a long before 18 and 90 the banjo had reached a pretty high state of perfection. In fact I have one 1888 that's highly ornamental and a very fine instrument. This banjo I show you here (points to banjo he holds in his. lap); was 19 and 9, while not a very old one, it's a very fine ins trument. Charlie: Now, originally they had four strings, didn't they? 17. Ernie: No. The four string banjo was an offshoot of the five string, that is, the American variety. Of course, banjos, you might sayan instrument played with strings over a skin might be far over; it might have even been in Africa, I don't know where all. But the banjo as we know it, the five string banjo,originabed in America, here in Virginia, I understand. Now, uh, the tenor banjo, the four string, the tenor, tuned in fifths like the cello or the plectrum without, just like the five string, without the thumb string--the thumb string nearly half way do~n the neck, u~, came in later. They're used with the pick; they were fine for the jazz band, where the five string is a plectrum style insbrument , played ._ l:.:...-~~------...:j . _ ' .~ Charlie: Uh-Huh. Gharlie: Uh-Huh. Ernie: Ernie: 18. with the fingers, not played with a straight pick. Sv;eeny, of Virginia, vias the first one to r:~ake a five string be~jo and in one of the museuma is one left-handed one, made for a girl .. uh and it's quite interesting. They were cruder instruments and uh and in early America the banjos were made II ,jI, by hand, homemade, .. you might say, uh, the.uh, shell was either cut out of solid wood, or, bent, and skins, usu~lly from a ground hog--maybe a cat . Audience: Laug..hter. Ernie: stretched across it and tacked with tacks.. My first banjo, was just one of them. It had no frets or crossbars, to note, just a strai~ht neck, carved out and whittled out and uh, that ,iaS the first banjo until until later on in the 90's it bec&~e an art. The banjo reached a high Doint. Even in the early days they claimed even the President played the banjo. Boston went banjo mad and up at the turn of the century hit (sic) was the biggest seller on records, probably, the banjo. Fred Van F. Bacon 8..1'ld others, Osborne, made hundreds of records and uh but then when the Jazz Age came the five string banjo, except among the country plbyerS was heard no more. It is now be~cming well known, due to folk music, but there is a banjo society, of which I am a member, The Hrothin"hood 0.1.' ,P,tm:loir;ts; \...e meet once ft yenI' find [lUVe a big to-do someplace and banjoists from allover the -.' - i ~ \ ,_. i 1~.,l LJ 19. world ~ppear, and it r S ver~T popular in England, Australia and other places. That's good banjo type of playinf!, the classical style, of ban,io playing,al'1d so, the banjo is quite an interesting instrument and there's a big story with the banjo. Our early pioneers plucked the banjo for the dances; someone would saw a fiddle, occasionally someone would have a gUitar, or an organ and one playing the fiddle, in order to add a little more interest, they'd take darning neeales and hit across the strinrs as the fiddler was playing to give 'em an effect, and many ways of getting the various effects. The banjo is played in various ways by plucking, or by rapping the banjo or frailing it in most any way to get the tone, and of course the simple mountain tunes, such a9 Sourwood Mountain, Turkey in the Straw~-used to be called Old ZiTI --" Coon .. Audience: Laughter. playing the banjo, were not musicians; the~.r had to hear Little Mo Hee--many verses to that--and before that, a and before that, it was known as Shanty Holler and such as some of our modern numbers today are country music, ii ! !, iI ; 1 ~11 Ij1 I the tunes coma dOYtTI and chD..nge. But:,,: these early people, it. Nanurally the tune changed, and sometimes they were hardly recognizable from the'old original tunes that came friend of mine told me, i!1 Shakespeare's day it was I believe, Under the Apple Tree, or something. Anywey, for instance, O-n-To-p -of-O-ld Smokey was before that -M-y Ernie: :.....:..:~.._.j 20. from England, and Irel=d, and Germany and other places. Some Yiere composed in this. country and seemed to belong here more then an.vvihere else. Among the fiddle tunes, the breakdoffiS they called 'em were, while they might sound very much like the old Irish and English, Scotch reels and hornpipes they're still typically American and southern American and it takes that kind of foot~ pattin l to make 'em sound right. Audience: Laughter. Charlei: What really is a breakdown? Ernie: A breakdown is just a conntry fiddle tune unsophisticated with Dlenty of pep EL"ld just swang(sic) to it. Charlie: Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs have made millions off of breakdowns. Ernie: That's what it is, called breakdown by the old timers. I ~ show you' here hO\'l the baEjo, sounds. I can demonstrate here with this instr~lment:::::1'lmv;. l.ti. .iluned in different ways. ThiS is the way most old timers (strums banjo) tune the banjo. This way and now they played in several ways, for instance, as you know, Daniel Boone went through Cumberland Gap on his way to Kentucky. There I S an old sa:Ting, "Cumberland Gap ain't very fer (sic), jest(sic) four miles a Middlesboro" ane; they have a fiddle tune called Cumberland Gao. It's also been played on the banjo. It sounds somethinG like this (Plays part of song on the banjo). That's one way they had of picking out the tune. . ~.. -, '---J-. ----.-.. Elaine: .brnie: Blaing: Ernie: i. --J ~_. 21. How many fingers are you using? I WaS using three on that ... Three finger picking... You can do that with two fin~ers; most of the time they used only two fingers. Eow with another approach to playing they had, they what they called rapuing, or thumping or .frailing. ~ou can use any. one of the words, and describe, the ",yay they did it. They viould pluck vii th the thumb, but they would frail with the thumb nail-- uh--with the nail oE the first finger by hittinE downward toward the snring and t~en picking up wit~ the thumb on the other. _ They got quite a rhythmic, stom~, bre~~- dorm effect with it, and CrijJple Creek is the oldest banjo tune._ Anybody that p~ays country banjo knows Cripple Creek; it's the first one he cut his teeth on probably. It sounds like this when you frail it(Plays the song On the banjo). Something like that. (Speaks words) 11Goin' dov,iTI to Cripple Creek, goin' in a run, gain' down to Crinple Creek to have a little fun, ,I .1 ' j Audience: Laughter: Ernie: flRell my britches up to my }mees, I 'll~~'go dovm to Cripple Creek vihen I please. II The old words to it. Charli~: wnere did that song come rrom? Ernie: We don't kno~, well, I don't kno~ whether it came from Cripple Creek in Arizona, or Cripple Creek in this part of tllO OO\Jhtry~ Thnro oro ~ov0ru~ Cripple Cro0ka anrl I 1!I 1 1!I " '::':'~J:=-"-- .---.-..----- -; ... I~ ~...-' 1""'---_. Elaine: Ernie: 22. don't know which one, or how it originated. Vlhere did you first hear it? I heard it in Kentucky. There was a neighbor, banjo player, who played it in that way, and that style, and and' I heard him play it and the first I ever heard. Now, of course every banjo player, among the folk banjo players know Crinple Creek, and most of them know Sourwood Mountain and Cumberlend Gap, Sally ~ooden and all the old tunes. I suppose I know hundreds from memory since I grew up with them and I've always loved those old tunes. They have a rhythmic somethinf, natural that, a don't care attitude that you just like; it's foot-pattin:-'music. iIj 1 1I Charlie: Would you say the banjo was the instrument that Vias more closely used in folk music or would it be the violin? Ernie: Well, they were both used in country dances and in entertainments. The fiddle was, Viell I don't know how far back we'd go not to find fiddlers' contests and of course the banjo player was always there, that is, since the banjo has been a banjo. Charlie: U'n-Huh. A mOlmtaineer would come closer to being able to make himself a crude banjo ~nd play it .. Ernie: Yes, you'd find more banjo players in the old days than fiddlers. The fiddle is much more difficult to learn than a few simple tunes on the banjo and so they grew up together; the banjo and the fiddle Vlere the two instr'.1- ments uS'.lally at the dance and in the mOill1tains, you didn't see the guitar so often as you do novl; just , .' . 20. occasionally someone played the guitar, not ve~r often. But the banjo was always there, and the fiddle. 1 'm rererring of course to these Southern mountains--Tennessee, North Ca'lina, Kentucky and here in north Georgia especially. , ~harlie: Was the banjo, when they first started making them and everyone, individuals,say were making them, didn't you see a lot of differentkinds and shapes? Ernie: Every imaginable experiment has been done with the banjo. Even today you'll see what is corillUonly called folk banjos, with the neck out (He measures the length with his hand on the banjo he is holding.), well that's ve~r recent--I never saw one before last few years. So they're always-- they're making banjo-guitars, ba~jo-mandolins, banjo-everything to get the different effects. ~~t the old standard has remainea the one that didn't die out. Charlie:Wh~{t does it have to have, or be made out of or shaped like to be considered a banjo? Is that the skin that makes ita ban,i o? ~rnie: Yes, the round shell and the skin head and the strings and the long neck and the frets; that makes the banjo, gives the banjo tome. I'--_........, ~~~J 1 .. ~,J 24. lJ-:rnie: Now, ~~. Saxon, let's hRve an old time tune. Let's go way back. You remember thlS old tune called Katie Hill? You.:d6? Don ttc shake your' head, say! Mr. S. Yes. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: Ernie: Katie Hill, she must have been quite a gal. Allright, you fiddle it. ( They play the song. Ernie plays banjo,. Mr. Saxon plays fiddle, ~~s. Saxon plays gUitar.) Well, welve played that to [t many a square dance, hs.ven't we? The old timers that was one of the favorites .. 3ird in the Cage, old Virginia Reel, all the old favorites. Guess yoa1ve heard a many haven't you? his head.) (Mr. Saxon shakes Audience: Laughter. Charlie: There he goes shaking his head again. Mr. S. You know I cen't talk. Audience: Laughter'. Ernie: Mr. S. Do you know another one? Anything you want to play. 'ihat do you want to play? (Asks-'his wife.) Mrs. S. Anything you want to, doesn't matter to me. Ernie: I\'I~. s. Allright. Sound your' A and start out. (Sounds A.) How about Never Alone Waltz? ('l'hey play.) Elaine: What was that one called again? ,io'lr. S. Never Alone \/ialtz. Ernie: Never Alone--sounded like Over the Waves, didn't it? Mr. S. It's related to it a little I think, first cousin. 25 . ..';':lclience: Laughter. Ernie: Mr. S.: Ernie: lvir. S.: J:;rni e: Ernie: Mr. S.: You Jr.now, the old time fiddlers used to imitate a lot of barnyard sounds and everything. YOil know, they imitated the chickens. Isn't there an old tune called C. acklin' Hen ? Believe there is. The old hen. Can you make the old hen cackle? Little bit. O.K. (They play.) Well. Mr. Saxon, .Leatherbritches is an old time t~~e, but they're not mffi~v people that know what leatherbritches are. You tell us what leatherbritches are. Are they dried beans? I don't know. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: Dried beans, that's it. Dried in the lmsk. Good old leatherbritches. And when you cook 'em up with a lot .of good bacon for about two or three hours, it's hard to beat. How 'bout the old tune called Leatherbritches? Mr. S.: I'll try it. (They play. ) Elaine: ~here'd that t'lDe come from? Ernie: That's one of the oldest. Really originally that was McDonald's Reel, the old Scotcp- tune but after it became l1-'llericanized, it became Leatherbritches. That's an interesting bit. Well, ~r. Saxon, you have any other ideas? Mr. S.: ~lst anything, I don't know. J1 Ernie: Oh, how 'bout you singin' us one of the old timers, Mrs. Saxon? Just cut loose and sing us one ... 26. Audience: Laughter. ErI;li e: JoIIrS. S. We'll play you the prettiest accompaniment. Don't ya(sic) know, I've got a sore throat. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: Nlr. S.: Well, Mr. Saxon, looks like you'll have to sing. Not me. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: 1'lr. S.: Viell, at least you can fiddle. Give us a fiadle tune, anything you want. How 'bout Elackberry Blossom? Ernie: Aw yes. (Thev pla~;) Ernie: Billie and the Low Gr01md dates long back to William the Conqueror, William the Conqueror when he went through the lowlands of Holland. He, tnat tune was composed about that, an old fiddle tili~e they called it Billie and the Low GroQ~d which is a countrified way of saying \".Jilliam the Conquer-or went throug..':t Hollllild and that I s all there is to it. Now there's another tune that we hear quite often today, they call it On Top of Old Smokey. I remember when On ':rop or' Old Smokey first came out. It was back in the '30' s I think. Someone just wrote some words to an old tune. The original tune before that, was L. ittle Mo Ree i ! I Elaine: Did it have words then? \ -, -- t.-.l \---- ~ __ ~~__,. ~~ -- ~...........J '4.~ L~_._( f-~ '''"''''.:-:-,,) 27. Ernie: In had a string of words long as your arm. I've seen them many a time. Little Mo Ree was about an Indian maiden and an English sailor who came over to this country, and they fell in love. Well, it was one of those sad love affairs, and he had to return to England and the verses are a miLe long. about it. Little Mo Hee, exactly the same tune; an old friend of mine who died two or three years ago had done some research into that tune and he said it went bac~ to Sh,~espearels day. In that day it Y'as called Under the ADDle Tree or some- _____ .c" ~ thing and we don't know how much further back the old melody went and that I s the story of that tune, so far as T know Audience: Laughter. (13 feet omitted here--they discuss Ylhat to Ernie: Elaine: Ernie: Elaine: Ernie: . play next--decide to play Billie and the Low Grmmd. ) Go ahead, I'll play with vou. (They play.!) A lot of that sounds like it was written for--not written, but pla7ed by a bagpipe and then adapted to a violin. Somewhat. Now, it also reminds me of another tune that I can tell you another short story about. There came out a tune some s6veral years ago called the Battle of Hew Orleans. I remember it. It was a very famous tune at that time. Every fiddler that I've ever knovm in the past fifty years, have called that that tune the Eight~Day of January. 'l'hat's what " "~" ~~r"--'~~"'----, --. '--; -J---'~-------- .....--'=- 28. the old fiddle tune then for .. ma~y years I played that tune On the eighth day of January just for the fun of it. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: So, originally it Vias called the Eighth Day of January, so far back as I know, and later on I, I don't know how the origin of the Battle of New Orleans, I don't know , -- that, however it cO-lIld,. maybe oven that one was the ,original, I don't know but I know I always knew the melody as the Eighth of tTa..l1uary. j ~--i Ii , 1 ,I j, i I I Elaine: Ernie: Mr. S.: Ernie: Gould you play it for us? No, I don't ~lay it on the banjo but maybe Mr. Saxon would play it on the fiddle. I don't play it. Viell, 1 1m sorry we don't--but it's just an old. time fiddle tune, similar to these others, very similar to the one we just played. Billie and the Low Ground, that was Billie anci the Low Ground. And of' course She'll';be Gomin' Round the Mocmtain goes back to Eliz- < abethian(sic) days and it's another old one, There are many old oneS old tunas and we don't know the origin. In fact, there's been very little, there are very few of the old melodies the.t hC.ve not had their birth back hundreds of 'rears ago, and "they I ve been changed jus t somewhat over the usage and time over the year;s. Takes a long time to develop a tune and Gradually 29. changes--there's an evolution in'tunes--tunescan change names and gradually chaq;;;e a few notes, they're worn and polished till they become real folk music you might say and maybe they were originally, in a Viay, but, theY do change. L-"' i Charlie: Ernie: Ernie, do you think you could get Carol to play and, sing something f'or us? Oh, wh'." not, she should. She has her classic guitar over there and she looks very eager to play. Audience: Laughter. Ernie: Carol, you'd better get close to the microphone, or you 111 not be heard.. Vihat art') you going to play, Carol? Carol: Ernie: Carol: This is, ,,;as, a favorite of Abe Lincoln's I believe called Jim Crack Corn. Jimmy Crack Corn, oh yes. (Plays, accompanies herself on the guitar.) lIV~hen I was young, I used to wait, on master, and give him his plate. And pass the bottle when he got dry, and brush away the blue tailed fly." "Jimrn;r 'erack corn, ariG. I don't care, Jimmy crack corn, and I don't c al'e '. Jimmy crack corn, and I don't catoe, My mHster's gone away. " ! -'----. _. f--'.. ._~ ---- '.,",~ Elaine: Ernie: f....... ' ~... HOne da;l he ride around the farm, The flies so numerous they did swarm, One chance to bite him on the thigh, The devil take the bluB tailed fly." TlJirmny crack corn, and I don't care, Jimn~ crBck corn, and I don't care, Jirmrry crack corn, and I don't care, . My mas ter-' s gone away. I' liThe pony run, he jump, he ~pitch, He threw my master in the ditch. He died and the jurv wondered why, The verdict was t1"le blue tailad fly." IIJirnr.G.Y cracle corn, and I don't care, Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care, Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care, r.'ly master 's gone away. " flThe~" buriad him under a I simmon tree, His apitaph is there to saa. Beneath this stone I'm Lorced to lie, Victim of' tha blna tailed fly." "JiTIlzny crack corn, and I don't care, Jimny crBck corn, and I Qon't care, Jirrill}:-T crack~ corn, and I don't care, IYIY master's gone av/ay. n vrhat is this ~\>-'-ou' r8 going to plt\y? And now let me play vou a hornpipe, an old English 30. II IJ Ii I 1 ..I ~_.' -.- t --=) . Cha r lie: Ernie: 31. sailor's dance. This is a soldier's hornpipe. (He plays the fiddle and Carol accompanies him on her guitar.) And now let's take Cumberland Gap--tain't very fer (sic) just four miles a Middlesboro. (He plays the banjo.) Well, we got one more I want to play: That's called Buck Creej{; it I S an old time breakdown, a genuine hoedown just similar to this last one. (He plays it on the banjo.) You've got time for Cripple Creek, if you'll play it. All right, the old time way. I'll play it the rapping way. The way they used to play it about a hundred years ago. (He plays it on the banjo). , ..
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Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions.
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