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This is the second of a four part recording in which Catherine Green interviews Mrs. Joseph Rash. This part starts with Rash discussing herbal and root teas used to cure illness, like black snakeroot for colds and goldenseal for sore throats. At minute 9:40, Rash briefly talks about superstitions. She says that it was believed that if you heard an object fall at home and could not source the sound, you were going to die. Next at minute 12:15, Rash talks about the process of churning butter and the timber used to make churns. Then at minute 16:18, Rash details forms of entertainment from her childhood. Specifically, she describes the game Authors that she played at school with homemade cardboard cards. At minute 22:22, Rash recalls hymns her family sang, including alternative versions with humorous and topical lyrics. She then sings a fragment of the hymn Sowing in the Morning, which she sang at Forest Home Baptist Church, and reminisces about the church.
Ida Geneva Shoal (1876-1973) was born in Warrensville, North Carolina, to Robert Lindsey (1844-1932) and Robecca Shoef (1842-1929). She married Jesse Rash in 1905 and they had two children, Howard (1906-1989) and Joseph (1909-1991). Additional biographical information has not been determined.
Ii The following materiel was collected from Mrs. Joseph Rash during two sessions (November 14 and 21, 1970) in Auburn, Alabama. Mrs. Rash (maiden name: Ida Genieve Shoal') was born August 19, 1876 in Warrensville, North Carolina. She spent her childhood in a two-story log house that had weather boards on the exterior and a porch in front. On January 1, 1914 Mr. and Mrs. Rash and their fiveyear- old son, Joe, moved to Chiihowie, Virginia where Mr. Rash had bought a farm. Mr. Rash made his living by farming (wheat, corn, oats, cattle, hogs, etc.) and was also a mechanic. Since the death of her husband, Mrs. Rash has given up housekeeping and makes her home with her children, alternately in Chilhowie, Virginia and Auburn, Alabama. Her permanent address is the old farm address: Rt. 1, Box 270 Chilhowie, Virginia and she may also be contacted through Mr. and Mrs. Joseph Rash of Auburn, Alabama. I was introduced to Mrs. Rash by Mr. and Mrs. H.W. Green of Auburn, Alabama who knew her through the First Baptist Church there. Mrs. Rash is a thin woman, very lively for her age, with pleasant wrinkles that are not contradicted by her manner. She speaks in a voice, which is obviously aged, but strong. Her dialect has apparently been tempered by association with her Alabamian relatives because it varies in strength and phrases which seem foreign to it sometimes occur in her speech. The following transcript was made from a tape recorded November 14, 1970. ( pips) When obviously irrelevant or repetitious material has been omitted, the omitted tape footage numbers will be given in parenthesis. f 3 and then you put your hand under it and go through it. But uh...you have to sew from atop to bottom. a lookin' at that. That's the uh... Sugar Bowl... Katie: Oh. Mrs. Rash: ...they call it. You see uh...This is the bowl and this is the lid. Katie: Oh that's pretty. Is that one that you learned from your mother too? That looks like an old... Mrs. Rash: Oh...when I's a little girl, there's an old lady, she 'as an invalid that lived right next door to my mother and she sent her uh a square of that that was pieced and the pattern when I 'as a little girl. Katie: Do you remember what the lady's name was? What her name was? Mrs. R: Williams. Katie: Williams. Mrs. Rash: People called her Grandma Williams. She 'as old and she 'as an invalid, she couldn't walk. And uh...so she sat...I can remember...she sat by the side of that bed that she had a little bed right up next to the fireplace and she uh...stayed in that bed and she'd get up and set on the side of that bed and work. I can remember that old lady, I remember when she died, I helped put her in the coffin when she died. And uh...now let's see... (185-192) Katie: Do you remember anything about dying cloth or the weaving, how people used to weave cloth or... Mrs. Rash: Yeh. Yeh. Katie: Well could you tell me something... Mrs. Rash: My mother uh...My mother wove...well...When I can first remember...now that's been a long time ago. You couldn't buy any cloth, there wasn't any. 4 Wasn't any in the stores and, no ready-to-wear uh... garments. And uh people had to make everything... and uh...My mother used to dye her material. She'd dye her wool before she'd card it and she'd card and spin her thread and weave it into cloth. And I used to...When uh she'd be putting in a piece, she'd call it. The uh...course I can't tell you all about how it was but she'd first put it...uh...You'd warp it, they called it, and uh...They had warping bars and you'd warp that and then you'd uh...put it in the loom, you know, and have a big beam that'd roll it all up on that. And then you'd put it through the harness, they called,it, they 'as made of threads... and there'd be a eye in every one of them...and uh... so I'd have to hand threads to my mother and I'd went to be out playing, you know,...and I'd get so tired. I'd have to hand her two threads at a time. Well then, uh the she, next they had a sleigh. It was made of reeds and uh you'd put two threads between every one of them reeds. And she had a little something she'd put up through there and put through there and put it down, I can remember seeing her. And uh, she'd uh then she had wndingbladeJthat she'd put it on to fill ui1I ) You'd have quills made out of uh...reed, about that long. ' esture to indicate hand-length to wrist] And you'd put them on the stem of the wheel and wind them up and... Katie: Oh, I see... Mrs. Rash: She... and I...She'd have me a filling quills when I'd have to reach up. And she'd dye her material. She uh...used uh Black Walnut hulls. You know what Black Walnuts is. Katie: Yes. Mrs. Rash: Well you know the outside hull is soft. Katie: Uh huh. 5 Mrs. Rash: And uh she would take them outside hulls. I don't know what she put with it, she put something else with it. But it made a beautiful shade of brown. Katie: Oh. Mrs. Rash: Those Walnut hulls did. And then uh she had uh something she used uh a certain kind of oak bark, and I don't know, she put something else with that, but I don't know what it was. But for a yellow, she used hickory bark and allum, to dye yellow. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: And uh...there was some kind of a herb they got that she dyed that made a kind of a purple. I don't remember what it was. Course after I got up larger they began to bring dyes in the stores. Katie: Oh yeh. Mrs. Rash: Didn't even have to use that homemade dyes. But I can remember that uh the walnut hulls uh making such a pretty shade of brown. Katie: Well, what would she...put it...boil it with the cloth or something? Mrs. Rash: Yeh...They'd boil it somehow and they'd put something else with it to make it uh fast color, to keep it from fading, but I don't remember what it was. Now I know they put allum with the hickory bark. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: But I don't know what she put with the walnut hull s. Katie: Did they just strip the bark off the hickory tree and then boil it with the cloth? Mrs. Rash: They'd skin it off. They'd take the outside, the rough, you know, off the outside and uh take the inside. Katie: They'd use the inside for dying? Mrs. Rash: Inside of the bark, you know. The outside's dark, rough. They'd peel that all off and just take the inside and put allum in it, boil it, put allum in it and strain it. And it made yellow, made a pretty yellow. (330-334) Katie: I wanted to ask you where you're from originally, you know, where you grew up and where you were born. Mrs. Rash: I grew up in North Carolina. I was born and grew up in North Carolina and stayed there till after I married. Katie: Uhin, what was the name of the town or the...in what area of North... Mrs. Rash: Warrensville. Katie: Warrensville. Mrs. Rash: And uh...so uh after I married, well Joe... (349-354) Mrs. Rash: Oh yeh. Well, he was five years old. And my husband went over in Virginia and bought a place over there and we moved over there and I still own that place. Katie: And uhm what was the...What sort of house did you grow up in? What was the...what did the house look like... or what... Mrs. Rash: Well, it was a two-story house. It was a log house and weather-boarded on the outside, two-story. Had a front porh. (373-377) Katie: Was there any special uh name for that kind of house in those days, did they... Mrs. Rash: No. Katie: Was it a special style or something? Mrs. Rash: They didn't have names of things then like they do now. Altogether different. Lot of things I could tell you about them times, you'd think it 7 wasn't true, that I was just a making that as I went because it seems so itipossible for the things like that to happen, you know. Katie: Yes. Uhm...do you remember any old stories, any stories your mother used to tell you or any stories your relatives used to tell you? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. (397-401) Mrs. Rash: There was an old couple that uh lived uh close to us by the name of Denny when I's a little girl. And they was up in eighty. They didn't have any children. And they was witty and, funny and I used to go there. I'd just love to go there and get them to tell about the habits and the customs when they were young. Katie: Oh, uh huh. Mrs. Rash: Cause I's just a child then and they were old. And, uh...they'd tell me and this old lady, she was witty as she could be and she's a good old lady. Everybody loved her. But she had a by-word, she'd say 'by-gut." That was her by-word. I've heard her say that a thousand times, I guess. And she'd tell about things when she was a girl. And uh and she said when she was a girl, people went uh barefooted. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: And she said that they'd uh, when they'd go to church, they'd carry their shoes and stockings till they'd get nearly to the church and they'd sit down and take off their shoes and stockings and she said they'd tie their shoes with the strings, you know, they all had lace and uh they'd tie the strings together and hang them over their arm and she said that their boyfriend was with them, he'd carry their shoes for 'em. Katie: What did they do in the wintertime? r Mrs. Rash: Well, I reckon they just didn't go. Katie: I guess so. Mrs. Rash: I don't know, she didn't say anything about the winter, but she laughed and told about that and she told a lot of things about uh their habits and customs and I just enjoyed it and it was just uh sauce to me now to hear her tell about how people lived when she was a girl. (477-483) Katie: Children's stories they used to tell uh...? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. They uh. In them times most the stories they told was ghost stories. Katie: Oh... I' d.. . Mrs. Rash: I can remember... when I's a child, people'd get together and they'd tell so many ghost stories and they had me so 'fraid. They'd maybe there at home at night and get to telling um and I'd be afraid to go upstairs to go to bed. I's afraid to look behind me, afraid I'd see a ghost and I'd get in bed and jerk the cover up over my face 'fra.id to look out. I've thought about it lots of times and I thought everything that people told was true you know. But in later years I learned that you couldn't uh rely on everything you heard. But them times I thought it, when they'd tell their ghost tales, they'd tell the awfullest things that'd happened that they'd seen and heard and I thought that every word of it was true and I hadn't learned then that you couldn't rely on all you heard. (530-534) Mrs. R: Well, uh there's so many. I've heard so many, they told so many. They told there's a. preacher and his wife now and uh course I thought they'd be the last ones that'd ever make a mistake in anything they told, you know. And they told about a place 9 that they'd lived and they said uh of evening, a certain time in the evening, it's afore dark though, they'd uh, uh. Somebody, I forget whether they said it was a man or a woman, would come up the road with no head on. And said they'd have a long white handkerchief hanging down to their side and they'd come up right close to where they were and they'd see 'em, watch 'em, why said they'd just see 'em a many of them. They'd stand and watch 'em. Well I wondered about that. And I'd look sometimes, to see if I could see something like that. And they told about uh...A place they'd lived and uh...after they'd go to bed of a night they'd tell what they'd hear. And uh...they'd see something coming up the stairway, it'd come and they'd watch it till it'd get nearer to their bed and they'd jerk the cover up over their face and they didn't know what went with it then. But they said they'd see that every night. Katie: What was the name of the preacher, do you remember? Mrs. Rash: Uh, name of the preacher? Uh...Campbell. Katie: Campbell. Mrs. Rash: Yeh. He and his wife they uh they'd both be a telling and they told a....Oh, they just told so many things that away. And I thought every word of it was true and thought they really did see it and it'd really happened. Katie: That must have been....Why do you suppose people told stories like those? Mrs. Rash: Don't know. Katie: I guess... Mrs. Rash: I reckon that they thought that it was so. They imagined it and thought it was so, I don't know. Katie: Well, uh... ON Mrs. Rash: I couldn't study up things like that to tell. I couldn't get it up so I could tell it with a straight face. Katie: I know what you mean. Uh... Mrs. Rash: And there's a old lady. Her name was Shepherd, that lived aclose to us and they kept the Post Office there at her home. She lived with her son, she's a widow-lady and she was up in eighty years oldwhen I's just a girl. And I'd go there to the Post Office and a lot of times they wouldn't be anyone there to get the mail. I'd have to wait awhile. She didn't do anything about the mail. And she'd always talking and a telling things and uh she'd tell ghost tales. She'd tell the biggest tales. And uh she told about a house she'd lived in one time, and she said that uh every night after she'd go to bed and the lights'd be put out, she hear something fall up from the ceiling onto the floor like a box of nails, and the nails would fly all out she said then. And said she'd uh put on the light and look and there wouldn't be a thing. But she could hear that every night. And she said there was a, right at the foot of her bed, there was a spot that they claimed was blood! It was red stains and said they said there was someone's murdered there one time and she thought that that's why it was hainted. But she said she'd hear that every night. Just like that uh box of nails she said wauld hit the floor and the nails'd just spread out everywhere. Katie: Was..there anybody uhm...in your...in the town that you lived in or the town you lived by sho was considered to be a witch or something? I was wondering about the superstitions of those times. Mrs. Rash: What? Katie: Was there anyone who was considered to be a witch . or anyone... 11 Mrs. Rash: Witch? Katie: ...or who, or anyone who was considered to be able to uh influence what would happen to people? Mrs. Rash: Well, there...there was an old man uh after I grew up was grown that lived there close that people just suspicioned, they said that his mother was a. witch. And people suspicioned that he was. But I never did believe he was. Course he he might of been, I don't know. I never believed in witchcraft. much. Katie: Well, I was...uh... Mrs. Rash: But uh...I reckon they was. The Bible speaks of the days of witchcraft and I reckon the time was. I know my mother uh...when she was growing up. Course that'd a been a hundred and fifty years ago, or nearly that. She'd tell things that uh had happened. They said uh witches had done so and so, you know. And uh, she told about uhm a man that uh lived right close to her father when she was a little girl. She said he looked awful bad, she could remember how bad he looked and people said he was bewitched and said that he said that there was an old lady Wagon and her daughter that would come in the room every night and they was just a riding him to death. And she said that uh he finally died. She said they told... the witch doctors told him if he'd get one of their pictures that they'd make a bullet out of it and uh shoot the picture and they uh and the witch would die but he wouldn't do it. And she said he finally died. She, of course, that was just rumour, she didn't know whether it was true or not. But she said one thing that she did know, when she was a girl, she was visiting her uncle, and there's an old lady that came there one day, a neighbor, that 12 was said to be a witch and wanted something that her uncle had and he didn't let em have it. I don't remember what it was. But she said that when she left, she went by the barn. And he had uh such a. pretty young filly in the barn and she opened the door and went on. And she said that evening when they turned it out to get water, she said it was just, just like it was wild, she said. And uh so he went to a witch doctor. They had what they called witch doctors then. And he give him a little vile of uh some".,.kind of medicine and told him to uh, uh bury it and let it stay so many, so long. And take it up...then. And if he didn't that uh that old lady would die and said that he wouldn't take it up, said that he said that if she was mean enough to put spell like that on a innocent horse, she was too mean to live. And he wouldn't take it up. And she said that she was there visiting and she said, course this old lady died, said she didn't know whether that's what killed her or not, but she did know that happened. Katie: Well uhm, what did she say about the witch doctors? What sort of people were they and uhm...? Mrs. Rash: Well, they's just normal people. But they, they's just like doctors are this day and time, you know. They'd tell to do....Course they don't, they didn't have any hospitals or anything like that, but people they'd uh...They'd call 'em witch doctors and they'd tell you what to do and how to do to avoid uh bodily harm, you know. And some of 'em would do and some wouldn't. Just like that man was when they told him to let that medicine stay buried, I think it was three days, so long anyway and to take it up and if he didn't take it up that she'd die and so he just said that if she's mean 13 enough to put anything like that on a innocent horse, she's too mean to live and he wouldn't take it up. And they said she did die. But whether that's what made her die...maybe she'd died anyway. Who knows. Katie: Uh...do you know of any of the old uh old medicines that were used to treat people say when they had a cold or they had flu or... Mrs. Rash: Medicines they used for cold? Katie: Herbs or uh, or what sort of thing they used. Do you know of any of those? Mrs. Rash: Well, the people used teas, different kinds of teas. They didn't...there wasn't any medicine in the stores, now sounds unreasonable... TAPE II (7^ips) Mrs. Rash: Some people of today had to go back to uh the time when I was young, they woiadn't know how to live. Katie: That's true. Mrs. Rash: Now they have doctors and drugstores, lot of all that they'd be better without of course. But them times you you couldn't buy any kind of uh medicines. There wasn't a drugstore known when I can first remember and but few doctors. And what doctors they did have wasn't skilled like they are today. Katie: Do you remember any uh any,,uh teas that were used for uh special...you know, what tea was used for what illness? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. Now there was a herb they call Black Snake Root. It grew out wild of course 'n' it a smelled kinds like camphor and had a little taste like that my mother used for a cold. And then there was the Golden Seal, they called it, they used for sore throat. It was bitter, and it was yellow, the root was. And they used that for sore throat. And 14 uh some people used. Boneset for a cold, drink a pint of Boneset tea before they'd go to bed. But I couldn't stand. It .'as just as bitter as anything could be. But my husband uhm after we 'as first married. That'd been uh, up in sixty years, that's what he'd want when he 'as taken a cold was a pint of Boneset tea. I couldn't stand it, I never did drink any. Katie: Well uhm. The Black Snake Root, you used the root to make tea.? Mrs. Rash: Yeh, you uh the Black Snake Root, you got the root of that. The leaves on the herb looked a little like bean leaves. But it grew up not more than that high an you got the root and it smelled and it smelled and tasted a little like comphor. Now they used that for cold and it was good too. Katie: And what about Golden Seal? Did you use the roots or the leaves? Mrs. Rash: Yeh, the roots. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash; The roots was yellow and gold colored. I reckon the reason they called it Golden Seal. Now it was bitter. But they used that for sore throat. Katie: Uh...,and what did the plant look like? The Golden Seal? Mrs. Rash: Well...it grew up in little uh little spikes growing up with little leaves on it and a white tossel right on top. I haven't seen any in so long, I wouldn't know what 'twas now if I was to see it. Katie: tJhrn. Where did this, where did these uh herbs grow? Did they grow...Did they grow in the open field or in the...? Mrs. Rash: Well, uh, they uh just usually, when I's growing up they grew, in them times they had the old rail fence. I don't guess you ever saw one? Katie: No, I don't think so... 15 Mrs. Rash; Made out of rails. And they'd uh, you know, crooked. And they'd grow in fence corners. Katie: Uh...and what about Boneset tea, did that come from the roots of the plant or leaves? Mrs. Rash: The what... Katie: Boneset? Mrs. Rash: It was a herb. uh Katie: kn herb? Mrs. Rash: It grew up and uh had a white blossom on it. It'd grow that tall and had a white blossom on top. And uh they make tea out of that and it was as bitter as quinine. Well you could get quinine then. Some people used that. Course...you could get quinine and tincture of iron and uh uh I thought a little while ago of some other things. Katie: Well, where would you uh buy the, would you buy these from someone? Quinine and tincture of iron? Mrs. Rash: Do what? Katie: Where would you get them from? Mrs. Rash: Well you got that at the store. It was a powder. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: They had that in the res. Now the quinine and uh salts and sulfur and tincture of iron and turpentine and camphor and uh uh a few other things that they had. Just laudanum end... Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: People then would uh use laudanum, paregoric. And uh, you could get that at uh, just the local stores, you know, where they kept it. You didn't have any drug stores. Katie: Uh...and what were they used for, what was, what was...what illnesses were they used for? Mrs. Rash: 'What? Katie: I don't know which illnesses they were used for. 16 Mrs. Rash: Well, I don't know. A lot of them, they, people when they got sick, they just... Katie: Take everything? Mrs.. Rash: Take whatever they thought they needed. Course if they had a. cold, why they'd take. Now they'd, people would take quinine for a cold sometimes. And uh...sulfur, they'd take that. And uh...salts. And some people would take uh calomil. I never took but one dose of Calomil and that salivated me and that was enough for me. I never took any more. (162-204 ) Katie: What does the term salivated mean? Mrs. Rash: Well, when uh, uh my gums all just got loose from my... my teeth got loose. My gums just left 'em. Around...my mouth was just sore all inside. And when I'd eat uh, my gums would come loose from my teeth and uh crumbs would get around my teeth and you know, under my gums and oh, it was an awful feeling. My mouth was just so sore. I was sick and I vomited and ...They said I vomited up the calomil's the reason I ...it salivated me. I don't know. Anyway, it's lasted me till now. Katie: Sounds like I don't think I'd want to take it either. Let's see, do you remember uh any superstitions? Do you remember anything people used to do to uh...keep something bad from happening to them or something bad from happening to their crop or anything like that? Mrs. Ra.sh:.. Well, they used to have signs and wonder as they say and is. And they used to uh...they...if a dog howled they's say they'd one die out of the family. That's a sign one ' d die out of the family if a dog howled. I've seen that in print and uh a lot of things that a way. People'd say if they'd 5 hear, sometimes they'd things fall and couldn't 17 find nothing, they'd say they's one going die out of the family. I don't know whether it had anything to do with it or not. Katie: Uhm...was there anything they could do to prevent someone dying...? Mrs. Rash: Well, no they uh... Katie: You know, for some superstitions there are also superstitions about things they could do... Mrs. Rash: To avoid it, yeh, I know. But I don't know whether they had anything then or not. I don't remember whether they had anything to break the suspicion or not. But times are not like they used to be. And people are not either. Katie: That's true. Mss. Rash: Young people now...It's like they saying. Somebody said that the young people thought the old people was fools and the old people knew the younger ones were. Katie: I think I've heard that somplace too. Mrs. Rash: Well, in some ways, the old way was best and some it wasn't. Some ways uh why they uh they ways of today are better than the old time ways. Katie: Let's see, I had some other questions I wanted to ask you. What about churning butter and what about uh do you uhm....I'd like to know about uhm how you used to churn butter and how the butter churn was made. And I'm interested in all of this. Mrs. Rash: Oh, I've churned a many a time in these old upd and down churns, you know. And you...you could always tell whenever it uh the the butter would get gathered as they say and is. It'd all get out of the milk, you know. You could uh lift up the dash and tap it that way and if the dash'd stand up and woulr_dn't go down in the milk, the butter was gathered, they said. If it wasn't, why the dash'd go back down. Course I used a churn uh uh it's been about two years ago, I reckon uh when I's up home. I had one of those old churns, a cedar churn, that I've had when I's ...when people used them. (338-358) Katie: Were churns always made of cedar? Was there any reason that they were made of cedar? Were churns always made of cedar wood? Mrs. Rash: Well, no not always. But uh the cedar it was a fine texture, the wood was fine texture and it stayed pretty. And uh they, uh churn's uh, those old time churns were mostly made ofceda But they could make them of any kind of timber, but some timber turns dark after using. You know, you had to scald and uh use a lot of water on your churn to keep it clean. I'd always<;pour boiling water on my churn and churn it up and down a while with just the hot water in there and then wash the churn out good and wrinse it. Course it uh, the cedar it didn't affect that like it did a lot of different species of timber. But they didn't have to be of cedar, all of them. But uh, most people if they bought a churn, a wooden churn they uh really uh specified it uh cedar. Katie: Let's see, what else did I want to ask you. Uh... do you remember any games you played when you were a little girl.? Mrs. Rash: We uh...had uh, we had one game that...we played that after I grew up uh. At school, we called "Authors." We'd take a cards, you can make em, cards and uh, you'd take four cards to a family, say uh John Brown, Mrs. John Brown and uh their daughter and their son. Or any name you wanted to take, Brown or Jones or Smith or whatever. And uh the one that won in the game was the one that'd have the most names of the all the family, the four, you know. If they, 19 the one that had the most names now of most families, won in the game. I, we enjoyed that a lot, we school kids. We'd visit back and forth, spend the night with uh different students and we'd always play a game of "Authors," we called it. Katie: 'Well, uh...how did you play the card game itself? How did you exchange cards to see who would win? How did you...? Mrs. Rash: Well, uh...you'd take uh, when you'd start, how many was in the game would take a card. And they'd call for the names of the rest of the family, you know. If they'd get a Brown, or if they got a Brown, they'd call for Brown's wife, or Brown's son, or Brown's daughter and they'd...every time they'd call for one of that family till they got the family. And uh somebody would give 'em uh a name, maybe it wasn't be a Brown, but then passing around it was, it had to happen that way. And sometimes you'd have a ol.e card of uh several different names. And uh... Katie: So, you uhm...you took turn, you asked the person next to you whether he had the card that you wanted, say Brown's wife? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. Katie: And uhm...what happened if you got the card that you wanted? Could you ask again, or was it the next person's turn? Mrs. Rash: Well, uh, you'd just keep on till you got the Katie: If you got the card that you wanted, you could keep on asking? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. Katie: Did you have to ask the person right next to you or could you ask any anyone? Mrs. Rash: Well, you could just ask the bunch if you wanted to. Katie: Oh, the...the whole buhch. 20 Mrs. Rash: Yeh. But they'd usually just ask the one next to 'em, you know. I for...kinda forgot how they played it, but...That might not be just the way we played it, but anyway it's about like it, but I know we used to enjoy that. We'd uh if we'd call for, if it was a boy and he'd called for Brown's daughter and some of 'em would say "Well, take Brown's daughter,"or Brown's son.or something like that. Katie: What were the uhm...you said you made the cards sometimes. What did you make them out of and what sort of uh did you draw a picture on the outside of the cards or...? Mrs. Rash: Do how? Katie: Uh...you said you made the cards? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. Katie: Well how were they made? Of what? Mrs. Rash: We'd just take a piece of cardboard about, oh about like that and just put the name on the card. Put Brown on one, and Brown's wife on the other'n and Brown's son and Brown's daughter. They'd be four to a family. And we'd just have, we'd just make the cards, just cardboard, you know. Brown, Brown's wife, Brown's son, Brown's daughter. Jones, Jone's wife, Jones's son, Jones's daughter. And Smiths and so on. Katie: Yeh. Mrs. Rash: There wasn't anything to entertain young folks then like they is today. The way the, when they, when they'd visit, the young folks, they'd go to a neighbor's of a Sunday afternoon and they'd uh...Now they've got to get out in a car and go places or things like that, but them times they had no way to go, just ride a horse or walk. And uh, we'd go to a neighbor's house and we'd sit and sing hymns and we'd uh laugh and talk acid we'd have 21 the best time. I believe we really enjoyed it better'n they do out a riding their cars now. Katie: Yes, uh...what uh...do you remember any of the hymns you used to sing? Mrs. Rash: Any of the what? Katie: Any of the hymns you used to sing? Mrs. Rash: Oh, we just sang the old-time hymns. "Jesus, Lover of My Soul" or "Am I a Soldier of the Cross" and the boys, they'd uhm taken "Am I a Soldier of the Cross" and just for fun they'd say, make it into Am I Master of the horse or follower of the plow? And shall I fear to rope the calf? Or blush to milk the cow? And uh "When I can Read My Titles Clear" they'd had that When I can shoot my rifle clear At the pidgeons in the sky, I'll bid farewell to bacon and beans And eat my pidgeon pies. They thought that was fun, you know. And just different hymns that they'd uh study up and make something, you know, out of it and laugh about it. (652 to end of tape) 22 Session 2 (November 21, 1970) Tape 4 (3 3/4 ips) Mrs. Rash: ...what we'd now call a log heap and they'd keep the doors open a lot of the time. Katie: Was that because of the smoke? Mrs. Rash: No uh, just, I don't know. They just did it when I was a little girl. I can remember they uh. (13-14) They'd uh, just bring in...They had large fireplaces and they'd bring in wood. They'd just pile the fireplace full, you know, and and uh sit back around uh. A lot of times they'd leave one door open. I reckon for air, I don't know why. May be they thought they'd get too hot. (19-20) Mrs. Rash: Then they didn't have stoves and people cooked over the fire. I can remember when my mother got her first stove. I don't know how old I was, a little girl, but I can remember it. I thought when we got a cook stove, we was rich then, you know. That's something unusual. Because they wasn't very many. But of course it wasn't long till everybody had stoves. Katie: What kind was it? Was it uh, for coal or wood? Mrs. Rash: Coal or wood, either one. You'd burn either one you wanted to, coal or wood. Sometimes you'd burn uh, put in uh wood and then put coal on top of if. Soon have a red hot stove. Katie: Did they keep that burning all day or did they uh Mrs. Rash: Well, as long as they needed it. Most everybody had a fireplace in their kitchen. And uh, we had a big fireplace in our kitchen and we had what I believe they called a McCrane, that had hooks on it and you could...put the...turn it back. Have pots on the hooks, you know. And uh turn it back 23 and uh, then if you wanted to look at em, you'd pull and uh look at your pots, whatever you had cooking uh....If it wasn't done, push it back. Katie: Oh, this was at the, out...uh...atta.ched to the fireplace? Mrs. Rash: Uh hum. Katie: And it was uh called a MoCrane? Mrs. Rash: I think that's what they called 'em. It's been so long that...I can't remember that far back much. (40-59) Katie: Uhm, have you, have you remembered any more ghost stories since I've been here? Mrs. Rash: I heard a lot of ghost stories. I just heard 'em, I can't tell it, say they were true. Katie: Uh huh. Well, I...I'm not... Mrs. Rash: There's a place uh there close to where I grew up in North Carolina that was called the Devil's Stairs. And they claimed there'd been a man murdered there. Anyway they's a large rock there by the side of the road, a high rock and course it was just uh on ei...the creek ran between two hills and it was just rugged rocks and they, they was some bones a lying uh on a, under one of those rocks that they claimed was a man's bones. They's bones. I...they might of been a sheep, I don't know. Katie: Yeh. Mrs. Rash: But anyway, that was the most hainted place that there was anywhere around there and people just told of everything they'd see and hear. They'd tell about meeting uh people that uh riding with uh man'd have no head on, he'd be riding a horse and they'd uh bridles'd be red or some kind of a color, you know, and they just told all kinds of things that people saw and heard along there. They'd hear wagons 24 a coming and they wouldn't ever get there. They'd hear something like a wagon, a empty wagon a running over a rough road. It wouldn't ever come. And uh... they uh...most everybody was afraid along, to go along there by night by themselves. Course I passed there all hours in the day by my self. I never did hear anything but one time. I'd been off to church one Sunday and I'd uh....Them times you had to, everybody you had to ride a horseback io in a hay-wagon or something like that. There wasn't any cars and not many buggies. And uh...the...horse there at home, the mare that I uh wanted to ride had a little colt. And I didn't want to be bothered with it. And then it wouldn't have been safe to take it to church noway where they's so many horses. And so I rode uh my brother-in-law's horse and left the mare and colt there and as I went back that evening, it wa.s getting pretty late and I was by myself and the colt was just a running and playing along in the road and the mare nickering to it. And they's a millpond there at uh Devil's Stairs. And I heard something. I don't know what it was, on the other side of the millpond a making. such a pitiful noise and everytime it'd get louder, till it got real loud and then it'd commence growing weaker till it get so you couldn't hear it. Course the mare heard it because she'd perk up her ears and listen. I don't know what it was and I guess it was a bullfrog or something like that and that's all I ever heard. Katie: But did it scare you? Mrs. Rash: No, never scared me a bit. My husband wasn't afraid of nothing. And uh he'd always laugh if people'd tell haint tales, he'd laugh about it. Held, he'd say it was uh,...If something they'd seen, he'd it was an old stump or something like that. He'd laugh 25 about it and....He said one night he was going past the Devil's Stairs and he said they...out in front of him it was dark, but still you could see an object moving around and he saw something come down offa the hill down into the road. And he said it was there in the road just a wiggling around and said, said it never scared him, said 'I just thought, that's it now,' And says, he uh, was going to find out what it was. Said he got up to it an.d it was an old sow had come down into the road and lay down and the pigs's, little pigs's sucking, you know, and wiggling around. And he said that's the, the ghost that, things like that was the ghost that people saw and he laughed about people seeing ghosts. But it was known as uh being the worst hainted place there was anywhere in the country. And then there's a place up on, further up on the creek that they said was so hainted and uh....One man told that uh he was going to walk in through there one night and something.... He saw a haint and it cut a metal watchchain in two. Course that was unreasonable. Nobody believed that. I', didn't, I know. Katie: Well, he, the the haint or the ghost uh cut, cut his, the man's u watchchain in two? Mrs. Rash: That's what he told and you know it wasn't true. Couldn't a been. Katie: Yeh, Mrs. Rash: And they'd tell about going through there and there'd be a little boy a. walking along by the side of them and they'd a put their hands down and uh they couldn't feel nothing but they could see the little boy walking along by the side of them but they couldn't find him. Where uh I grew up they claimed it was hainted there after we moved.away. People'd pass there and 26 tell about hearing things there in the house a.nd it wasn't long till another family moved in of course. They bought the place and uhm...No ghost ever got after me there. Katie: Yeh. I guess there's something about an empty house that scares people. Mrs. Rash: Well, rats and things like that uh could be a running around and could make a pretty big noise, I guess. There's a preacher and his wife, Baptist preacher that used to come there at home. And I had seen 'em a lot out and they could tell the most ghost tales of anybody I ever saw. And they'd tell it for the truth and uh things that they had seen and heard even in the daylight. Uh I thought 'twas all true then, but uh now I have my doubts about it. Katie: Well, what sort of thing, what do you remember anything they told you? Mrs. Rash: Oh yes. Katie: Well, tell me some. Mrs. Rash: They told about uh one place where they lived and uh they said they uh 'bout a certain time every night they would uh lights come up the stairway. They'd be three lights. They'd come up the stairway and uh go to the rooms, you know. And they it uh every night that they'd see them lights. They couldn't even see any body but it just be a light and uh.... They'd tell about hearing things like a box of nails would fall from the ceiling to the floor and the nails you know, would fly out. But they'd look and there'd be nothing there. Katie: Why did they think the light came up the stairs? Mrs. Rash: Well, they didn't know. They didn't know what caused it, what the lights resembled. There's one house there that uh oh, it was uh, I guess, five 27 or six miles from where I lived, that they said was haunted so bad, there wouldn't nobody live there. And my father, he, of course I guess he's just a joking, told uh my mother and my sister that he's goingto buy the place. And uh he tried to make us believe he really meant it. We told him that uh buy it if he wanted to and he'd live by himself though. We wasn't going there. And they told of people that'd go there and said that they'd... something would carry them out, even out of the house. Put 'em down and tell 'em that was Luler's home. Katie: That was whose home? Mrs. Rash: Luler's home. They didn't know who the Luler was, but uh the ghost would carry them out of the house. And they'd leave. And uh they didn't anybody live there. It was known as the Yeats' place. The last time I passed through there the house d all been removed but uh. But they, they claimed that uh Mrs. Yeats had lived there one time and they was a millpond there right close and she got despondent and uh uh she drowned herself in the millpond uh. And they, they, people thought that was what caused it to do that was because she drowned herself. Katie: I'd like uhm have you thought of any old recipies that... Mrs. Rash: Any what? Katie: Old recipies. Any old ways of preserving things or uhm any old uhm ways of cooking things that you remember from years back? Mrs. Rash: Well, I, people don't cook now like they did then. I, I know, can remember how people cooked back then. Of course, they...as I said before, they cooked over the fire. And uh, people uh, them days 28 when I...in some snap beans, they'd always put a piece of bacon in snap beans, cook 'em, season 'em up good, you know. And they don't do that any more. And they uh they'd cook in the old iron kettles and they'd just really had better flavor than they do co:ked on the stove. I don't know why but they did. (214-215) And uh, they'd make their bread by the fire. Bake it in a oven's a. lid on top with coals on top of the lid, you know. And they'd make the best bread, a lot better'n baked in a stove. Katie: You woiild uh, there was a oven in the fireplace, was that it? Mrs. Rash: Yeh, you'd put it, have your fireplace and people'd always try to have some kind of wood that made uh coals, the live coals, you know, that would hold. heat. And they'd uh, get them out and uh on the hearth, they called. it. It'd be rocks or soapstone or something like that end they'd put them out and put their baker on top of them coals and put their bread in there and then they'd have a lid to go over the baker and they'd put coals on top of that. And uh, that's the way they made their bread when they didn't have stoves. (228-231) Mrs. Rash: Well uh, people in them times, they had good bread and it'd make the best rolls. They'd rise, you know, and be so light. And uh, I know my mother used to make chicken pies. And uh, in front of the fire, you know, make 'em like that in the oven. And when she'd take the lid off, they'd be so nice and brown. And she'd pour cream over the top of them and put the lid let that steam in the chicken pie. And oh how go they were. Katie: Well, uh...do you remember her recipe for the 29 Is chicken pies? Mrs. Rash: No...she'd cook her chicken, I reckon, I don't know whether she cooked it before she put it in the pie or not. But she'd put her uh, usually put her some dough. She'd roll out her dough pretty thin and cut it, you know, in pieces. And she'd put's a layer of chicken and a layer of dough and course she always had a liquid of some kind, chicken broth, you know. And uh, she'd uh before she'd put the lid on, she'd dot it over with butter on top. (248-249) Katie: Did it have pastry on top of the pie? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. And she'd cut that this a way and that a way. cross Katie: Oh. Mrs. Rash; ...to let the liquid come out and steam and so on. She'd put uh a piece of dough all over the top, you know. And then she'd take a. knife and cut it this a way and that a way right in the center. (254-263) Mrs. Rash: And uh people, of course, I reckon they made their preserves uh very much like they do today, but they made more apple butter then than they did preserves. And I like apple butter till today. (266-267) Mrs. Rash: Well, we always uh would make it in a big copper kettle, you know. And you'd uh...well, you'd just put sugar in till you got it as sweet as you wanted it. And cook it down. Sometimes it'd take you about uh most of the day to make a big kettle of apple butter. You'd start off with about six or eight gallons and uh then you'd uh cooked it till it'd uh, and have sugar enough in to preserve it so it'd keep and put it in crocks or jars or whatever you'd want to put it in and store it away. Katie: And uhm...let's see, how much did you have by the 30 time you finished cooking it down? flow much did it cook down, from six or eight gallons, how much did it reduce? Mrs. Rash: Well, you's start off, you'd just have, anyway six gallons of apple butter,, if you uh...now you'd usually.... It'd be a. large kettle, no telling how many gallons it'd hold. And they had a frame. They'd set it outside, you know, and had a hoop they'd set it in and keep the fire under it, you know, and cook it. Had a stirrer with a long handle and you'd set back and just stir just this way, you know. Katie: Did you have to stir it very much? Mrs. Rash: Yeh ^y oyu have to stir it uh most all the time. Katie: Oh gosh. Mrs. Rash: IItt 'dd stick to the botttto m,, yyou see,, cook to the bottom and scorch. You had to stir it away from the bottom of the kettle, you know. And it'd take you, the...about twothirds of the day to cook it off. But it was good. (293-314) Katie: Well, I hear your, uhm the t1is, if you make apple butter this way you don't have to uhm seal it up, it'll just keep... Mrs. Rash: No. Katie: ...unrefrigerated. Mrs. Rash: They uh now uh this lady that'd been making it for me, she said they said if you'd put some vinegar in it, it wouldn't mould. But I used to get this Salicillic Acid and put just a little bit of that in it and it wouldn't mould. But if you didn't put something in it, sometimes in setting it would comes little mould on top. It didn't hurt the apple butter, you'd take that all off. But still you'd rather not have it. (325-330) Mrs. Rash: Then uh of course in them times people didn't know anything about making jelly. They hadn't learned 31 the art yet. They didn't know there was any such a thing. And uh I used to put that uh Salicillic Acid, a little in my jelly. Now some people said they never had any jelly to mould but I did. No matter how good I'd make it, sometimes it'd come a little mould over the top of it when it was stored away if it wasn't sealed. (339-349) Mrs. Rash: It was uh in a little powder. And you'd put, I'd always put it in just about the time I'd take my jelly offs the stove and dissolve it good. And I didn't put but just a little pinch in. And uh, you never cowl, not enough to taste it. (354-357) Katie: How did you keep your dairy products cold? Your milk and your butter cold? Uh how did you keep it from spoiling? Mrs. Rash: The milk? Well people then had what they called spring houses. Katie: Did you have one? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. Had a. little house at the spring, you know. At the spring and uh oh. it's as close as from me to you, four feet from the spring they'd build a little house, and aave a box with water, filled with water through the uh little house, you know, and they'd set their milk and have crocks and things. And they'd put their milk and butter and everything in that water and set it there and it'd keep good and cool. That's the way they did when they didn't have any refrigerators. Katie: Uhm...and I wanted to ask you...you told me how you churned your butter last time. And I wanted to ask uh how you molded it? What sort of mold did you put it in after you finished churning it? Mrs. Rash: Well, I had a regular butter mold. 32 Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: ..that printed it. It'd, it'd make pretty prints. It'd print one pound, hold one pound. (376-390) Katie: And uh, did you use fresh milk to churn or did you use...? Mrs. Rash: No, you had uh had to let; it uh clabber, we called it. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: ...had to let is set you know till it soured and then it'd get thick, clabber , we called it. And uh, then you'd take your butter out and uh if if wasn't solid enough that you could work the milk all out of it, put salt in it, why you'd let it set a little while till it kinda hardened and you'd work the whey they called it, uhm milk out of the butter, you know, and make it into a ball or if you wanted to pack it in a little bowl or crock or something to set in your spring house. (403-423) Katie: Uhm...did you...uh you talked. about snap beans a while ago. I was wondering if you, did you dry your snap beans? Mrs. Rash: Well ...we'd dry 'em. Now they didn't can 'em then times. People didn't know anything about canning. Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: And they had to dry uh....They dried their apples and they dried their blackberries. And all kinds of berries, you know, and uh beans and punkin. Katie: Well tell me uhm how did you dry your beans? Mrs. Rash: Well, uh, you could uh take they strings off of 'em. And you could spread 'em on a cloth and put 'em out in the sun and dry 'em or you could string 'em on a thread and hang 'em 'round the fire. Arid dry 'em and uh when they got dry, take 'em off, you know, and put 'em in a sack. We always, uh we 33 children at home, we'd call them leather br itches. Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: And uh, I like 'em s'much. Cook 'em and put a little vinegar over 'em on my plate and I just loved 'em. (449-459) Katie: Yeh. Uhm. How did you dry blackberries? Mrs. Rash: Just spread em out uh if you had the little, you could put em into little pans or put 'em on a clothe or on a wax paper, anything like that. You could put 'em out in the sun or you could dry 'em around the fire in the house. Katie: And how did you cook them after they, uhm after they were dry, how did you cook them? Mrs. Rash: Well, you just cooked them till they got tender. Katie: Just with water. Mrs. Rash: Put some water in 'em and some sugar and cooked em. They wasn't good like fresh ones though. (4701471) Mrs. Rash: Well, you know, them times they's no way of keeping 'em throughwthe winter except to dry 'em because they, they wasn't a.dy jars and uh if they hada been people wouldn't know how to used them. I's up, I don't know how old I was, a great big girl before I, I ever saw any fruit jars. Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: And uh, uh people when they started using 'em, they call. it airtight. Katie: Oh. Mrs. Rash: They didn't say canned , the called it airtight . Katie: That's interesting. Mrs. Rash: Course it was aitight but that's all the name they had and they didn't, they hadn't heard of 5 the canning and they uh some people would uh fix it 34 that way and uh how long as they could get to the jars, you couldn't maybe get more'n two or three at a time if you could get any, because they wasn't on the market. (490-499) Katie: Did you dry your apples whole or did you, did you dry, when you dried apples, did you dry them whole? Mrs. Rash: No, you had to peel 'em and uh cut 'em up, take the core out. Katie: And uh. Did you have anything, anyway of keeping them from turning brown or did you just let them turn brown? Mrs. Rash: No they, well you could dip 'em in salt water, put a little salt in the water, enough to make it a little salty and put your apples in that and they'd dry pretty, they didn't turn so dark. Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: And didn't have to have enough salt to uh uh hurt the taste of the apple. Katie: Uh huhm. And uh, lets see. tfh what about preserving meat, how...? Mrs. Rash: bleat? Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: Well, people just salted it. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: And uh let it uh take salt so long and then took it off and hung it up in the smoke house. Katie: Well, how did you uh salt the meat. What, did you pack it in salt or uh...? Mrs. Rash: Well, it uh uh the government put out a formula for curing meat and it was so many pounds of salt and so many ounces of black pepper and so many ounces of red pepper and so much brown sugar. And you mixed that uh all up together, salt and all of that and salted your meat heavy, just covered it over with that. And uh that kinda cured it, you know. Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: And uh then uh you'd let it stay so long, I don't remember how long and you'd take it off and just hang it up with that loose salt, all that stayed on. Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: Just hang it up in your smokehouse. And when it'd dry then you'd put your hams in a cloth bag or any kind of a bag to keep flies from it... Katie: Uh huhm. Mrs. Rash: and uh hang it back up. Katie: Uhm, do you remember any ways of cooking dried food that were used to uh restore the uh... Mrs. Rash: Cooking the...? Katie: The dried foods. Meat and beans and uh apples and... Mrs. Rash: Well... Katie: Any special way that you... Mrs. Rash: ...now they uh beans, snap beans, dried beans, we uh called 'em, we chi- _dren there at home called 'em leather bitches . You'd parboil them. Uh, that is you'd boil 'em so many minutes and uh put a. pinch of soda in, we always did. Well, that took uh uh a lot of that dried taste out. Katie: oh, uh huh. Mrs. Rash: And then you'd take 'em cut of that water and put 'em in with your meat. And cook 'em. And they 'as a whole lot better that way than they was to just cook 'em, you know, not uh, not precook 'gym. We called it parboil. Precooking, 'N I always did my uh greens that way, turnip greens and mustard, any kinda greens. I'd cock just a few minutes in uh water with a. pinch of soda in it. Then I'd 0 take it out. And that takes that uh, a lot of that green taste, some people say it takes the vitamins out, I don't know, but the greens is a lot better, I know. Katie: Uh huh. Well, you would...yeh...uh...you put, cook 'em in soda to remove the strong taste or... Mrs. Rash: Beg your pardon. Katie: You'd cook them in in a little bit of soda uhm... Mrs. Rash: Yeh... a pinch, L':d just take my finger and thumb, you know, and a little pinch. Katie: And that was to remove the strong taste? Mrs. Rash: Yeh, it takes that out and uh they'll cook a lot tenderer. Sometimes you coati greens, they'll be kinds. tough. And I like for them to be good and tender when I eat 'em. And that; uh pinch of soda had helped to tenderize 'em. They'd cook so tender and good. (576-581) Mrs. Rash: I always put a little sugar in my snap beans. Just a little, about a half a teaspoon full in what I'd cook for dinner and they didn't give 'em a sweet taste but it did help the flavor. Katie: Yeh. Mrs. Rash: 'N I always put uh sugar in turnips and cabbage. And... Katie: I'll have to try that. Sounds good. Mrs. Rash: I always thought that uh a little sugar in, a little sugar and red pepper in turnips makes 'em hundred percent better, I think. I always use a lot of red pepper, hot pepper. I didn't put enough in to make it burn your, burn your mouth or anything like that, but just enough to flavor it. I cooked, I reckon, a lot f the old fashioned way, things I got from my mother about like that, you know. And she always used, she always grew 3$ hot pepper and she'd string it up and hang it up by the side of the door and it'd dry. And they she'd hang it in her kitchen and she'd put it, cook beans or cabbage or turnips, she'd go and break her off a piece of the pod of that red pepper and wash it and put it in with her vegetables. (612-642) Katie: Uh what about children's toys, do you remember any kind of toy's that uh people used to make, homemade toys for kids? Mrs. Rash: Well, they'd make little wagons and little sleds, you know. (648-662) Mrs. Rash: And we'd make little sled's. When we first got started, they wouldn't be longer than that. [gesture to indicate hand length] And we'd have a string to pull 'em by, you know. Katie: Uh huh. What were they made of? Mrs. Rash: Wood. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: We'd get some kind of wood and we'd make them little sleds, have little runners, you know, and then we got to making little wagons out of wood. That's about all't I remember that we made in the way of toys 'as when we 'as children we just made them. Katie: What ..about dolls? Mrs. Rash: Well, all the dolls I ever had, I made. Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: They wasn't any dolls in the stores. A ready made doll in the store wasn't heard of. 'N I made my dolls, just rag dolls, you know. (679-699) Mrs. Rash: You'd take a domestic cloth and cut 'em with that pattern and stuff em with cotton or anything 38 you wanted to stuff 'em with. Some'd use wheat bran. But uh you'd stuff 'em with anything you wanted and they's shaped kinda like a baby, the way they's cut and uh I got that;, uh got to using that and used them till I got up till I was shamed to play with dolls any more. (71:2-843) Katie: You were saying yourstep""Grandmother... Mrs. Rash: Her first husband they said was bewitched. He was sick a long time before he died. He was just thin...and pale and weak and you might say, just dragging. And they, a man that claimed to be a witch doctor said he was bewitched. And uh told him that uh a widow lady Wagon and her daughter was bewitching him. And uh if he'd draw a picture of them, give him a picture of 'em that he'd make a a bullet of it, I believe. And he'd make a bullet anyway and shoot the picture. And they'd die. And if he didn't that he'd die. And uh said that uh he said, this man said that they, they was just a: riding him to death. Said that this woman and her daughter would come in through the keyhole....At the door, he'd have the doors locked. And they'd come in through the keyhole. And uh so he wouldn't do what the witch doctor told him to do. Katie: Why do you think? Did they say why did, was he afraid to do it or he just...? Mrs. Rash: Well, I don't know, he told him that if he didn't do that.... If he would do that, they would die and if he didn't that he would die. And so he wouldn't and he died, the man did. And uh so whether it was so or not...they told it. I've heard of the man, his name was Leonard. I've heard of him, but I, course he was dead long before I was in the world. I don't know whether it was true or not but they said that uh r9 the, that the that woman and her daughter had him bewitched. I don't know what k:Lnda spells they put on him to bewitch him. And uh when my mother was visiting her uncle, she said that uh they's a old lady came there one day and they say they've got to get something from you before they can put a spell on you. And this a. lady came there one day and uh she wanted something that they didn't let her have, I don't know what. But when she started off, uh she stopped at the barn and opened the door and her uncle had a nice young horse there and she opened the door to where it was and stood and looked at it a little bit and went off.. And uh said that uh that evening when they turned it out, it was, just acted like it was wild. Said it would just run and it Would climb up on a. pile of wood and just uh was crazy. And uh so this witch doctor told them that old lady had bewitched it. And uh give him some medicine, told her uhcle now to bury that little bial of medicine and to bury that and let it stay uh so long, three days, I think it was and take it up. That if he didn't that uh she'd die. This woman'd die. And he wouldn't take it up. Just let it stay. Well, she said uh all she knew was, this woman died. She said they'd sat down to the dinner table and someone come in and told em, I forget the woman's name, but this woman had died. But said now she mighta died anyway, she didn't know. She said that was the only thing that ever come under her observation that might a been caused from being bewitched. (972 to end of tape) I* S Tape 4 (3 3/4 ips) (Beginning of reel to 68) Mrs. Rash: Did you ever see any pillow shams? Katie: No, I haven't. Mrs. Rash: These is some I had. Th8t I made these. I embroidered them. (70-72) Mrs. Rash: And uh people used to....People used to...they uh they beds, they didn't let the uh bedspread hang down like they do now. They tucked it up under. And uh they'd smooth over the top of it and have it just as smooth. And they had large pillows and they'd set the pillows up against the headboard, I called it. And then have these shams starched right stiff and set them up over the pillows. ( 8-80) Mrs. Rash: And it made a bed look so pretty. You see they'd be starched so stiff they'd uh set the pillow up and put this up and it would uh just set up, you know, at the head. Katie: Well, uh is that., ,where did you get that pattern from? The... Mrs. Rash: I g...I guess I ordered it readystamped, I don't remember. If I didn't, I stamped it myself. I'd uh take uh I used to stamp a lot of things. I'd take a spool of thread or a spool that'd had thread on it, the dark end. There's a paper, a dark end. And I'd dampen that dark paper and uh what I wanted to stamp, I'd spread it over this, you know, and iron it and then rub it with that dark paper and you could stamp it as as pretty, just look like it'd been stamped by a machine. Katie: Oh, I see. You put a piece of uh...You'd have one that was already sewn? Is that what you'd have? With the thread on it. And then you'd put 41 another piece of cloth on top? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. You see you'd spread this out now... And put your piece of cloth that you wanted to stamp on top of it and iron it over. On top of this, you see. And then take that spool that had that dark uh, the end of it has one dark paper and one light. And you'd take the one uh of course you could use uh lead or a lot of other things but I'd use that more'n anything else. Dampen that dark paper on the end of that spool and rub it over this. Katie: Was that something you thought of, or was that something that everybody did? Mrs. Rash: Well. Well a lot of people did it. I don't remember how I come to it, to gent into it but... Katie: Uh huh. Mrs. Rash: ...I got into it anyway and I stamped a lot of things. (106-138) lTr Rash You thentionedl_ about the ppinn.ing and the weaving. Katie: Uh huhm. I was wondering if you knew that: I'd gotten uh....You told me a little bit about it but... Mrs. Rash: I don't remember what I told you. Did I tell you about how they put the pieces of cloth in the looms? Katie: Uh why don't you just tell me again? Mrs. Rash: They'd uh, they had uh cotton thread in the stores. They'd put it up. They called it bales . Now they'd have uh we called em hanks . I don't know what they'd call em now. But uh they'd be uh so many hanks in the bale. And they'd buy a bale of that cotton. Was supposed to be five pounds. I think. And they'd take that thread and boil it. And uh size it, they called it. They'd take corn meal...I don't know how they fixed it. I don't i 4% remember. I've seen my mother do it but I don't remember. They'd call it siin r. It'd make it kinda. stiff. Put corn meal in water and dip this in it. Called it sizing . And then they would warp it. They had uh what they called warping bars . And uh they'd warp it. And then you'd put it in the loom. Katie: And uh, what was warping it? Was it lining up some of the threads? Mrs. Rash: Well, they uh you had uh when you uh sized the thread it was still in the h anks , they called it. Skeins. Katie: Uh huh. Those are just uh the thread sort of wrapped around in a loop? Mrs. Rash: Yeh. Well you put them on what they called winding blades and uh spooled it off. They'd take corn cobs and uh burn that uh I uh lint, whatever you called it offa the outside and uh take something and burn a hole through. Burn that pith out. And you used them to uh put the thread on. They called it spooling it. And then they'd fix that and then they'd warp it offs those spools. And they, when they'd take if offa the warping bars, they had uh big bars way around. Course I've seen a lot of people warp, but I never. I wauldn't know A from B now about it. And then they'd take it and uh cffa the warping bars and loop it around their arms and fix it somehow. And then uh when they'd go to put it in a loom, they had a certain end to start with and uh they'd uh put that...they'd uh roll it on the big beam of the loom, they called it till they'd get to that place and that place was fixed to put through harness, they called it. It was made of threads with little eyes about that long in the middle. 0 44 And they would be uh two sheets of it. And you had to put uh uh a thread through each one of them eyes in a harness, they called. And uh then they'd have a sleigh they'd put in the uh breast beam , they called it. And you'd put -two threads through every one of those reeds. And uh then they'd uh put uh they'd put what they called rods through. They had a place to put them. And when you'd uh those harness, they called 'em. When you'd start weaving, the treddle uh similar to uh any sewing machine or anything. They's two of them and you'd put your foot on one of them and it's raise one of those sheets of harness up and you'd take th other'n and it'd raise the other'n. And that's what would uh uh cross the threads, you know. You'd have the, you'd have the the uh filling , they called it on quills and you'd had a shuttle and put the quill in the shuttle. You'd uh put your foot on the treddle and it'd open up the harness. It'd open up uh half of those threads and you'd shoot the shuttle through and uh tramp the other'n and shoot it back. And that uh lapped every one, you know, every thread to itself. Katie: Yeh. Well. I guess I'd have to see it to understand it. (208-213) Mrs. Rash: I love to weave. I'd get in sometimes when my mother'd get out. I'd get in and weave a few threads and I could shoot the shuttle through, you know. It'd open the uh threads uh...One harrness'd go up and the other's:'d come down and that'd leave an opening and you'd shoot the shuttle through. And when you'd tramp the other treddle in it'd raise the other threads. Katie: I think, yeh. I think I understand so;that they 4'^ would cross and... Mrs. Rash: You see there'd just be one thread and you could tell and you can look at cloth and tell, you know, how it is. And that's they way it 's done. Now I...everybody had a loom then and a spinning wheel. A lot of people uh....They wasn't any cloth in the stores. And you had to make all the cloth you had. And everybody wore woolen uh clothes through the winter. The winter was so cold and they didn't have warm houses like they do now. And they just wore heavy winter woolen clothes. The women wore what they called lindsey. The men the wore jeans. Katie: Oh. What's uh what's lindsey: Mrs. Rash: Well it was just plain uh cloth, you know. Just like uh well you'd flannel.. They'd uh got to calling, uh making it in the factories. They called it flannel. But they could them times when the people made it in a home, they called it lindsey. L-i-n-d-s-e-y. That's what they made their dresses out of. They'd make dresses and their underwear all out of that woolen stuff and. the dresses come down to the ankles. So they was; warm to what they are now. (242-263) Katie: What are Sweet Spirits of Nider? Mrs. Rash: What? Katie: Uh ... spirits, did you say something about Sweet Spirits of Nider? Mrs. Rash: I guess... Katie: I'm not familiar with that. Mrs. Rash: You ever heard of it? Katie: No, I don't think so. Mrs. Rash: They gave that I think for kidneys. It was just a liquid, a clear liquid. :But that's what 45 they called it, Sweet Spirits of Nider. (268-289) Mrs. Rash: hd then they had uh what they called uh Ginseng. And it, the last account I had it was ten dollars a pound. And they used that for camps and uh....Uh I think cholic and things like that. It's known as a great medicine. And people were just as particular about every bunch of that as if it'd been uh pot a gold. ( 296-303) Katie: And you used the root of that to make tea. or...? Mrs. Rash: Yeh, you used the root of that too. And they was(sassaferilla), they called it. You used the rooDt of that. Of course. They called it uh it was so good for the blood. And to give you appetite if you had poor appetite about eating. (311-314) Mrs. Rash: And people'd always got that to put in their bitters. And they'd use uh uh Alder and uh Wild Cherry bark and witch hazel and that uh yellow sassaf erill a and... (319-320) Mrs. Rash: And they'd call it uh their Spring bitters. (320-325) Katie: What about the Alder bark, you said? What did they use that for? Mrs. Rash: Well, I don't know. They put it in their spring tonic. They'd take all that and they'd boil it and strain it and uh if they had any whiskey, could get any, they'd put enough of that in it to preserve it, keep it from souring, you,know, spoiling. And if they didn't uh they'd put it in the spring house and they'd let it stay in there a few days and they'd reheat to preserve it. Katie: Did everyone take a spring tonic, tell me about 4' S Mrs. Rash: Well, not everyone, but uh lot of people did. They thought that they couldn't get through the summer if the didn't have a spring tonic. It'd build up their appetite and uh their health generally. (339 to end, of tape) 0
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Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions.
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