The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com.
This is the fourth recording of an eight part series, this recording starts with the Upper Sardis Church choir, located in Stewart County, Georgia, singing a gospel song. At 2:25 Betty Clark introduces their next song, I Met Jesus. She introduces a second song, followed by the choir singing Changing and Glory Hallelujah. Then at 17:00, a muffled church sermon begins, which turns into a somber choir song. At 22:55 a man sings a call and response gospel song, then a short sermon begins that turns into a song. Another sermon starts at 32:35, then a woman tells a story about her sister. After another story at 36:20, the choir sings a gospel song. Next, Theodore Vernon T. V. Williams gives a sermon and recites scripture from the Bible.
Rebecca Becky Y. Plunkett (1951-2001) was born to William Hugh Young (1918-1982) and Alma Lucille Young (1918-2009) in Birmingham, Alabama. She married Daniel Plunkett (1950- ) and had three children. Plunkett graduated from Georgia State University. Sara Clifford Hathcock Newman (1890-1978) was born in Quitman County, Georgia, to James Hathcock (1831-1924) and Lucy A. Hathcock (1861-1919) and was the oldest of six children. She married Gerald E. Newman (1893-1948) in 1922 and had two children. Newman moved to Stewart County, Georgia, before her marriage and lived there until she passed away. George and Earl Cobb were born in Georgia and were blues and country musicians. Theodore Vernon T. V. Williams (1914-1987) was born in Stewart County, Georgia, to Jacob Cornelius Williams (1889-1987) and Ardella Pauline Alford (1895-1996). He was a preacher at Upper Sardis Church and the owner of T. V. Williams Funeral Home. Williams lived in Stewart County his entire life. Thomas Daniel D. T. Gordy (1914-1991) was born in High Point, North Carolina, to Fred Lyon Gordy (1886-1976) and Nona Gordy (1890-1976). He later moved to Fulton County, Georgia, and married Louise Jones Gordy (1916-1987). Upper Sardis Church is located in Stewart County, Georgia, and is now called Sardis Methodist. It was established in 1848 and built by Joseph Sessions and his nephew, Benjamin Franklin Barge (1810-1873) who served in both the Creek Indian War of 1836 and in the Confederate Army during the Civil War. The church is nestled between the Lumpkin, Richland, and Troutman communities and has become a staple of Stewart County. Today Sardis Methodist holds church services once a month. Additional biographical information has not been determined.
TRANSCRIPTION iA'1I6IJALe ()~ PR.'ACHEIl ..::!i:>kE Roger Kluge f) I ) , , Ii'. . ". Researcher: This is Reverend Oliver C. Wilbanks, Assistant Pastor of the Wieuca Road Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia. Mr. Wilbanks, take it away. Informant: We may not get much out of this session. It may be like the man who was raised in a very - uh - expressive church where when they worshipped they expressed themselves by saying "Amen" and "Hallelujah" - they shouted . and he was on vacation and they got into a large city and he wanted to go to church on Sunday. Well, he saw a church and he went in and he was already inside when he realized he had gotten into a very formal church. It was a very ritualistic church - they did everything just so the program was printed, the ushers all had boutonnieres, the preacher was in a long-tailed coat and everything was just very formal. But he was in and so he decided he would stay with it, so he went along and he endured it right through until the preacher started preaching. He was a good preacher and he began saying some things this fellow liked. In a few minutes, he said something the man liked so well, the man said right out loud, "Amen!". Well, the people around him jumped, because they weren't used to this sort of thing and the preachers were startled and it sort of shook things up a little bit. But he kept preaching and things settled down again. After a while, the preacher said something again that this man liked even better and he said even louder, "Amen! Amen!" and this just almost broke the service up because the people began whispering "Who is that? What is that? What's happening?" And the ushers began whispering and, and the preacher fumbled around in his place and finally though, he went on until he got to the climax of his sermon and he said something this man really liked -- and this man couldn't help holding himself anymore and he said, "Amen! Glory Hallelujah!!" Well, this just did it. It broke the service up completely and an usher came trotting down the aisle. He leaned over this man and he says, "Pardon me, sir, but you're gonna have to be quiet in here." And the man looked up at him and he said, "I'll have you to know I've got religion!" And the usher very sternly looked back a t him and said, "We 11, you didn't getit in here, so be quie t! " .... And so, you may not get much out of this, but anyhow this'll give you an idea of some of the jokes that are told in various services. Inf. (con't) - 2 - Now - uh - ministers have some very interesting experiences, especially young ministers, and I am reminded of the young minister who had this experience that .. it was one of his first churches and just before he went into .service a couple came up to him and wanted to get married. He said, "Well, I can't perform a ceremony right now, we're fixing to have our worship service and if you'll wait - come on in and worship with us, and wait, why then right after the service we'll have the ~ceremony". They agreed and went there. So, at the conclusion of the service as he said the benediction, he made this announcement: "Will those wishing to be married please come forward". And to his surprise, one man and thirteen women came down the aislel ..... So you never know what's going to happen. Like the young preacher who was preaching away and he was sorta noted for - uh - being able to -uh - explain the scriptures very clearly. And so it happened at this particular time he was sorta caught because the evidently the preacher who was supposed to do the preaching was not there and so they called on him to preach. And so he decided he would just open the Bible and so he did - he opened the Bible to the verse of scripture that said: "Keep thy tongue from evil and thy lips from speaking guile". But he was a little bit nervous and in his reading he mis-read it. And so he read: "Keep thy tongue from evil and thy lips from squeaking girls". Well, you would have thought that would break up the thing, but it didn't, and he went on to explain and he says, "Now bretheren, it seems that here the scripture while it does not entirely forbid kissing, it rather recommends that you choose those girls who are quiet under the operation." So ministers do get into a fix sometimes along that way. However, others get nervous, too. This minister was preparing for a - uh ceremony, a wedding ceremony, and the bridegroom was outside his study just pacing up and down, nervous as he could be and so the preacher was kidding him a little bit and he said, "What's the matter, son" Have you - uh lost the ring?" "No, no I haven't lost the ring, I've got it here." 'N he said . "Then why are you so nervous have you lost your best man?" He says"No, no - he I s over there - the best man's here". And he says, "Then why are you so nervous?" And he says "I've lost my enthusiasml" - 3 - Inf. (con't): Well, in our churches a lot of times we find ourselves I guess, in that situation... we do lose our enthusiasm and we feel like that humor does put a little bit of enthusiasm in it. I think a classic story that has a point to it, is about a preacher back in the time when uh - transportation was horse and buggy. This preacher was out in this little rural church, preaching a revival meeting and he was staying with one of the deacons in the church. This particular night he was preaching and he waxed loud and long and eloquent and some of the intermediate boys had gotten enough so they slipped out and decided they would playa trick on the preacher. And so they slipped out to his buggy. Now if you know how the buggies were there - some of them had small front wheels and larger back wheels. So these boys simply reversed the wheels. And the preacher that night - it'was dark when he came out - he didn't notice and he got into his buggy and went on home. The next morning, the deacon with whom he was staying, looked out the window, and there was the preacher standing there in the road, looking as though he had lost some- ;: thing or was looking for somebody coming down the road. And he went out in the road and said, "Preacher, what in the world are you looking for?" And the preacher said, "I'm looking for that hill I came up last night". He said, "What do you mean - hill? There's no hill between here and the church - the road is as level as a floor." And so they got to looking around and they found the buggy and sure enough, there was the buggy and the big back wheels were on the front, and the little front wheels were on the back. And the preacher laughed and laughed and he said, "You know" he said, "there's a sermon right there in itself". He says , "If you put the wrong things first in your life, you'll ride on the back of your neck all the way." And this is a story that is used in sermons many times. Well we tell stories too on some of our laymen - like the church that was planning to improve its facilities and so the discussion one night in the business meeting got around to whether they ought to buy a chandelier. And so they discussed this - over, and pro and con, and just about the time they were finishing discussing, the most - 4 - Inf. (con't): wealthy man in the church came in. He was very influential but he was not an educated man, but they knew they'd better talk to him about this, so they just asked him the question, "Mr. Smith, do you think we ought to have a chandelier for the church? Do you think we ought to buy a new chandelier?" He says, "I'm against it. I don't think by any means we ought to have it." He says, "In the first place, if we bought it, that the clerk couldn't spell it in the first place. In the second place, if we bought it, there's nobody in town that could play it. And in the third place, we need some lights in this church." So this gives you an idea about how we play on the laymen. We have a little story about the preachers who - uh maybe talk too long and it's this one about the young fella who came to this church that Sunday and a terrific snowstorm appeared, a regular blizzard, and when he got there to church, there was just one old farmer who had made it to church, and so the young man said, "Well, sir, there's just the two of us here, so what do you say, shall we have a service or shall we just call it off for today?" And the farmer says "Well, I'll tell you son," he says, " -uh - if I had a herd of cows and I put the feed out and - uh - called the cows up to feed and only one cow came, I'd feed that cow." And the young man said, "Well, I get your point. We'll have a service". So he went right on through the service - had everything in the service - and then he began preaching and he preached and he preached and he preached, on and on and on, and after he finally finished, he said, "Well, sir, what did you think of the service?" He said, "Well, son," he said, "if I had called those cows up and only one cow had come, I would have fed that cow, but I sho' wouldn't have fed it the whole load". Res. : Inf. : That's good. I like that. We had a little story recently about a - pioneer days, when there was a preacher who was a little fellow , but he was pretty tough" and it was a time when they had to build - uh - stockades around their houses to protect them from Indians and wild animals, etc. out in the pioneer. - 5 - Inf. (con't): And so - uh - this preacher had this - uh - thing built here, and - uh - so one day a very huge outlaw came up to the stockade and the preacher let him in there and he began throwing his weight around and so the preacher got enough of him and he ordered him to leave. And so this - uh - this guy kept on throwing his weight around and finally the preacher had enough and although he was rather small, he just picked the guy up and threw him over the stockade fence and locked the gate. And - uh - in a few minutes he heard the - uh - someone just banging on the gate out there, and so he went there and says, "Who is it? And what do you want?" And he explained he was the fellow he'd just thrown out, and he said if he didn't mind, he'd sure appreciate it if he'd just throw his horse over to him. Res.: Do you remember where you heard that one? Ini. : No. Res.: Or, or can you remember where you have heard any of these? Ini.: Most - most of the ones"I have heard have been in services at one time or another. Ridgecrest - this type - assembly type meetings. These are used a great deal in this type of meeting. You don't hear this as much in regular services as you do when you go to an assembly. Res. Um-hum. Inf. You see, because this is a different type - it is a more informal type of atmosphere and it's just a different sort of tenor to the whole thing and you'll hear more of this type of thing at assembl~es and, and special meetings than you do in the regular worship services of -uh - churches. Res. I unders tand. Inf. : I might tell you about one - uh - about this deacon was - uh praying and they'd called on him to pray that night, and he - 6 - Inf. (con't): was praying along and he was very grateful for all that God had given him and he had been married three times and so in his prayer he prayed this prayer, he said, "Dear Lord, I want to thank you for the wonderful wives that you've given me", he said, "of course, first there was Mary - she was a lovely bride and a wonderful wife. She was - just blessed my life and then You saw fit to take her, and' that's all right, Father, rou know best, and then you sent me Luella. And she was a good wife. She made - was a wonderful loving person and we had a wonderful life together, and then you saw fit to take her. Then you sent me Lavonia, and Lord, she's a wonderful woman, but if you see fit to take her, that'll be all right, too." Res.: All right ... do you tell that one at weddings? Inf.: No, you don't have much of a chance to tell things at weddings, except before or after. Res.: Yeah - I gotcha. Inf.: Well, that's just a few there - uh - that you might - uh I think that's ..... oh, there's one that I tell when I'm talking to young people sometimes - uh - and really it this is used - I use it a good bit in introductions, you know, as I start in and try to - to get the folks to realize that I'm not responsible for being there, and I usually blame the person who invited me, you see. And I say: you might be like the young couple who were married and - uh - they were - got into their going away outfits and there they were all set to go on their honeymoon and they didn't realize until they got the pictures back that they'd had their going away pictures in front of the church bulletin board. And on the bulletin board was the pastor's sermon subject for Sunday. And so there they were right fresh from the wedding, ready to go on their honeymoon, and right above their heads wer;e the words, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do". Res.: Dh boy. Fantastic. Have you - uh - remember the jokes we were referring to earlier - uh - you know, just kind of country jokes that might not be funny now but - uh -poked fun at the pastor .. poked fun at the guy that was preaching, maybe like - uh - to make him more human. Some mistake he - 7 - Res. :(con't): makes during the sermon - or something that happens? Inf.: Well, let's see - uh - I remember one I read here the other day. I read this one, I didn't hear it, but he was talking about the preacher who had - uh - taken his - uh - was in a real small church and you know a lot of informal things happen in a small church many times and so this was one of his first churches and they had taken their little boy to church for the first time. And so - uh - uh - when they were on the way home, the father decided he'd ask the little boy how he liked the service. And he said, "Oh, I liked it fine, Daddy". And he said, "Well, what part did you like best?" And he said, "Oh I liked the best, the part best where you put the dog out the door"." ... Because a dog had wandered in and he had put the dog out - so that made an impression on the little boy and not the sermon. Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Right. How about jokes about Sunday School? What kids learn in Sunday School or mis-learn. Well - uh - there are a lot of things like - like this where - uh - they get the wrong word, like "Oh wash up the king" ... instead of "Oh worship the king", a child will hear it as it's sung as "Oh wash up the king". Dh-huh; And then like the little child who came home from Sunday School and he had a pocketfull of nickles, and his mother said "Where in the world did you get " And he said "I got it at Sunday School - they have jars of it down there." (Laughter) Of course he didn't know he was supposed to give, not take. Right, right. Let's see .... there are a number of little things that children - uh - you know - uh - will misinterpret, and say . let's see if I can find it. If you want to stop that a minute, we'll - uh ... Res. : Inf. Res. Inf. - 8 - I was wondering if - let's see .. what were those ones - uh - where the child hears about a miracle or something ... - uh - reacts in some kind of - when he reads about a miracle in the scripture - I can't quite remember .... Dh-huh. I remember one when uh - let's see - uh - I was trying to think about one where they misinterpreted and the mother asked the child what did he preach about and the child said "Watch out, I'm bringing a blanket" and she couldn't figure it out, and finally they figured that what the scripture was, was the one that says, "Behold the comforter cometh", but he had interpreted it as being "blanket" you see. He didn't know what comforter meant so he just remember that it was something that covered him up, so it called it a blanket. Let me tell you one little story that I have used and - uh - I guess other folks have used it, too, in trying to motivate people. And that was about the man who - uh had started through the graveyard at night. He - uh - had been out late and had been imbibing a little bit so he started through - uh - the graveyard and he missed a turn and he slipped, and, and he fell into a huge grave that had been dug. Well, he - uh - he kept trying to climb out of the thing but it was so deep and so slippery, the clay was so slippery, that he just couldn't make it. So finally he gave up and he sat down over there in a corner and he was sort of waiting for morning until - and, and another man was coming along and somehow he did the same thing and he fell in there, but he didn't see the guy that was already in there. Dh-hum. And so - uh - he was trying to get out, you know, and just trying, and he kept slipping away, so - uh - finally the fellow who was sitting over there who had already fallen in there first - had been watching him, and he just said out loud, he says, "You can't make it out of here, fella .. " But he didl And this carries the idea . this is the old story of the mouse who fell in the bathtub and he couldn't get out until the house cat came in and stuck his head in and the mouse made it out -- all the mouse needed was an incentive. Res. : Inf. Res. : In. Res.: Inf. : Res. Inf. : - 9 - I see. This type of thing is humorouse and it is often used along this line. Do you remember any about preachers employing - uh you know, certain tricks to - uh - motivate the congregation? Dh - trumpets, or voices, or ... No, but I do remember one about - uh - the preacher who was preaching on money - trying to raise money - and - uh - one of the wealthiest in the - uh - church was sitting over there and what they were trying to do was to - to repair the church and get it in shape because it was falling to pieces, so - uh - this fellow, although he was one of the wealthiest members, was very stingy. And so - uh - th~y had been trying to raise some money and different one had been pledging, and he sat over there and hadn't said a thing, until suddenly a piece of the plaster from the ceiling fell down and hit him right in the head, and he immediately pledged $100 and the preacher immediately prayed, "Lord, hit him again - hit him againl" I wanted to ask you - remember the joke you told about the cow - uh - earlier - gee, I can't remember how it went ... You mean, feeding the . Right. Why is that funny? Why do people think that's funny? Well, the idea, of course is that here, you see, you get the ridiculous picture of a man preaching a whole sermon there to one man - that's the whole thing, just going on and on and on and on. It's - it's just ridiculous no one, you know, with practical sense . and it just sort of throws off on the folks who don't pay attention to someone - to the need, you know, they just go on with what they want to do, rather than try to meet the need of a particular situation. They just go on because they know all this so they just keep on. Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : - 10 - Why do you think a joke like that would - would circulate in oral tradition, or preaching tradition? - uh - Is it the tendency of - uh - many ministers to over do? Oh yes, I think so. I think that this is to wax eloquent?? Yeah, yeah. And then too, ministers like to kid each other and - uh - especially in this vein where maybe one is - uh - particularly noted for this type of thing. I think preachers enjoy getting a little joke on one another. I expect this, this - uh particular one may not just, you know, go over too well, but it's - it's a type of humor that is used. Okay. I was trying to see this outline that I - uh - Have you ever heard any of these jokes about - uh Catholics, or jokes about Catholics, jokes about Protestants, jokes about Jewish people? Some of them you might feel aren't in good taste, but do you recollect any of those? Well, I remember one - uh - about the - uh - clergymen who - uh - were fairly close to one another, and so - uh the Catholic priest and the - uh - Methodist minister had been - uh - going fishing together. And so - uh - they invited the Baptist preacher to go with them one time - they had a special place out there in this big lake, and so they got out there and they were fishing away, and, and suddenly the Catholic priest said, "Well" he said, "you know I believe I'm going to shore for a minute and get a cold drink". And so he headed out and he just walked right over - it looked like he just walked across the top of the water. And he came back finally, and in a little while the Methodist:"minister said, "Well, I believe I'll go get one, too". So he did the same thing looked like - uh - he was just walking on top of the water. Well so of course the Baptist wasn't going to be outdone, so after a while he said, "Well I believe - uh - that I'll go and get one, too." So he started, and he went right to the bottom. And so the other two - uh - laughed, and said, "Well, maybe we should show him where the rocks are." Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. - 11 - How 'bout that! Hang in there, Baptists! Dh - do you remember any others about - uh - about the other denominations - you know, poking fun at the Baptists .. I'll bet there are a bunch of those. There are a lot of them, actually. Oh yeah, I'll tell you, I don't remember many of them because I don't try to use many of them .. there's too much danger of being misunderstood, I think. Occasionally we use them, but I try to be pretty careful about what group I'm talking to because - uh - you know, if you happen to do it in the wrong place, you can offend somebody, and - uh - maybe lose that person, you know. I mean, like the kind you would tell, you know, like you'd go home and say, "Listen, here's a funny joke I heard today on the Baptists - or on the Catholics, - or something you know, where you could just be yourself. I don't think of any off-hand, Roger, along that line. Maybe I will if we keep going through here - let me keep looking and see if I run across another one that you might like . ...... You know one of the classic one that we used a great deal a couple of years ago - I've used, and I guess everybody has and - uh - but Howard Butts was the one I heard use it. He told the story about the - uh - football team, you know, and the two teams meeting - two colored football teams and one was a huge, well-built team - professional type hadn't lost a game in a long time, and the other was a little bitty, scrawny college and it had a small team and they'd maybe win one or two games a year, but somehow or other they scheduled these two. And so the coach of the - uh - little team realized that they really didn't have any chance to win, but if they could even score it would have been a moral victory, so - uh - and he had only one' opportunity and he knew that, and that was that he had one little boy who was just as fast as a streak of lightening and he figured that if this little scat-back could get loose, he might score. And so - uh - he wants to give him the ball. His name was Calhoun. So he sent - well, of course, the big team got the ball first and they went down .. and they just Res. : Inf. : - 12 - crushed 'em and they went on down and scored. But it finally came time and the little team got the ball. And so the coach send the word out, "Give Calhoun the ball". And so - uh - the first play they gave it to somebody else and they snapped the ball and it went to some one of the other backs and this big line just crushed 'em and they lost about ten yards. And Calhoun was about ten yards away from the ball over here on the right. The next play, the coach over there just yellin' , "Give Calhoun the ball!", and the next play the same thing happened and they lost 15 yards and Calhoun was about 15 yards on the other side. So the coach was just screaming and finally the quarterback - they were in a huddle there - and the quarterback couldn't stand it any longer - the coach yelled out, "Give Calhoun the ball!! Give Calhoun the ball!! . and this little quarterback stuck his head up and he says, "Calhoun say he don't wan t the ball I " ......... And this, at the time, really went over. This, I don't know .... Why? Why do you think everybody . Well, I think - uh - first, the - uh - just the situation itself - and you could just see this little guy, and he knew if he got that ball he was liable to be clobbered -and he didn't want any part 0~1t. And it's just that you can see in your mind's eyd this huge team - and this small boy over there - and he didn't want anything to do with itt .... I think it's sort of ridiculous and so I Ithink this is why I thought it was so funny. I'll tell you another one that I heard - I forget where I heard this - it was at a banquet or someplace - a lot of this is at banquets, you know .. in the after-dinner' speech type of thing And you perhaps remember the one about the college boys who were having a bull session and discussing the meaning of words. And they came to three words they were discussing at this particular time - it was late a night - and they were talking about what was the difference between anger, irritation and frustration. - 13 - Inf. (con'd): And of course - uh - as they talked along there, they were trying to determine just the distinction as to just what each word meant, and so one of the boys said, "Well, listen, I can give you a perfect example of those." And they said "All right, Ie t' s hear it", "Let's see it". So he went over to the phone and he dialed a number - this is late at night - so he dialed the number and a sleepy man's voice answered and this college boy - uh - when the sleepy voice answered - uh " Hello" - he said, "Is Peabody there?" And this sleepy voice said "No, there's nobody here by the name of Peabody. You've got the wrong number!" and he slammed the receiver down. This old college boy he says, "Now that is an example of irritation. That man was irritated at getting waked up." said "Now we'll wait a while and I'll show you anger". So they wai ted and they let the man get good and asleep and they dialed the same number. And the same sleepy man's voice answered, "Hello" - and this ole college boy says, "Has Peabody come in yet?" And he hit the ceiling -"Oh," he said, "I told you there wasn't anybody by the name of Peabody here - you've got the wrong number! don't you call this number again!" Wham! down went the receiver. "So, now, you see, that was a good example of anger - he was just plain mad. So now we'll just wait a while". And so they waited again and let him get good asleep and dialed the same number and the same sleepy voice answered and he says "Hello" and the college boy says, "This is Peabody. Did anybody call for me?" And there was a dead silence at the other end of the 1ine and he hung up the phone. And he said "Now that's frustration." Res. : Inf. : Fantastic. Well, stories about preachers - uh - as I said before, I think quite frequently they are found - uh in the south. I think people really enjoy stories or jokes about their preachers. - Uh - I think one of the reasons is, ,and I don't know it may be in other parts of the country too, but that is that through the years the preacher has had a unique place in communities. I mean they've set him apart, you see. He's - uh - he's - supposedly different from anybody else. Whether it 'should be or not - they sort of ,/ ",,'/ r }\ - 14 - Inf. (con't): put him on a pedestal in some ways. And, and it just a delight when they can tell something that - uh - that makes him look a little bit ridiculous. I think this is true in anything. I think that we see this in any area of - uh - life. Somebody who is real successful, we enjoy seeing get a joke pulled on them. Somebody who is, you know, well known, etc. , we like to see this. And of course, the - uh - the - uh - Negro race - the black race has been the - uh - subject of so many jokes because - uh - of the fact that - of their reactions and particularly with the colored minister because the colored minister, more than even the white minister, has been in a unique position .. he has been the leader of his people, you see, in the south. They have looked up to him and as a result, the - uh - the idea of here is someone on a pedestal who has clay feet, you know, and it's sorta nice to know that it can happen to him just like it happens to us .... And I suppose, I don't know, but I guess that's one reason. Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Do you think that's the biggest reason? I mean underlying . I think so. I really believe it is. Now of course, I'm no authority. I don't know, but I think so. Well, that's your opinion. You feel, as a minister, that people kind of hold you up. I think - uh - I think in the past they have. I think perhaps not as much today, you see. Why is that? Well, I don't know, but you know the world is changing so you know. Because the church itself is not held if\as high esteem. The church itself doesn't havea~uch - uh influence as it once did. You see, the church at one time was - well, in the first place, it was the c~tet of social life as well as anything else . because there wasn't anything else to do. And so it was the center of things, it molded the opinion, and more and more as - uh - people are thrown into metropolitan areas, you get people who are not church-oriented and Inf. (con' t) : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. Res. : Inf. : Res. : - 15 - who have a completely different idea and they - uh don't feel about the minister nor the church like we in the south have grown up to feel. And I think this is why we have this change. You feel that the reason it's more predominant in the south, let's say, as opposed to the north, is because .. is why? Well, I don't know because I am not familiar with the north. <' Well, neither am I, I'm jus t kind of .... '-' I don't know - it may be just as true, but - uh - of course there is one thing - that is that the Negro in the south has been so prominent, you see, . and the humor of the Negro has been one of the things, and I, personally, don't feel like when we are telling a joke about someone - unless, well some of them are really degrading, but many of them are not. I don't feel just because you tell a joke on somebody that you are degrading them. Now of course a lot is in the way it's told, the purpose it's told - sometimes it is degrading and it shouldn't be done. But if it's done in the right spirit, I don't believe it's degrading at all. I think it's just sort of using the characteristics of the people. Uh-huh. In other words, it would be no more degrading than say, a slap-stick comedy with somebody getting a pie in the face Absolutely. .. and everybody laughing about it. Would that be a good comparison? It could be, I think. You know, like the lofty preacher - maybe not quite so lofty .. Yeah. Right, right. Well, Mr. Wi1 - I mean, Reverend Wilbanks, I certainly do appreciate talking to you. You're welcome. Glad to do it. Enjoyed it. It's been an honor. And we'll have fun transcribing all this. Researcher: Informant: Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : - 16 - This is James Frederick Hoffman, student of Georgia State College. He is a senior majoring in music. Nickname is "Bo". Take it away. Thank you, Roger. Uh- the first story I'll try to relate to you is the one on the Reverend Billy Graham, the famous evangalist, world-wide known. Uh - he was up in Pennsylvania and - uh - it - uh - and at a revival, a crusade he had up there one time. And behind him they had a banner up there - uh - "Man's Futile Search" and - uh - he got excited - it was his first night there you know, and he was excited about the crowd and what he was gonna say, and so he made a small blunder in his opening words, he said - uh - "Ladies and gentlemen, 1 'm glad to see you all are concerned about the fertility of man. 1I J i\~' Take it ~ go with it. Bo. Thank you. That's a biggie. Now get ready. The next one I'd like to talk about is - oh yeah - there was a preacher one time and he was up there preachin' - pardon me, I didn't get the mi~e too close - okay. He was up there preaching on - uh - the harvest. You know, all the fields are white until harvest. And he was trying to parallel this with all the fine ladies he had in the church, and he was talking about the garden and growing things and he made another slight blu,~der and he said, "You know, this church has more ho~{<js and the best hop,l'js than any church in town". Meaning .... ? Hoe - you know, like when you hoe the garden - hoe-ers. But anyway, he got a rather large laugh .. What kind of television rating do you get? X. Okay. Moving right along - uh this is on the cleaner side of life. There was a preacher down in south Georgia Inf. (con't): Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : - 17 - preaching at a revival in a big tent meeting, you know, and he was preaching long and hard one night. So finally after the service, he decided to go on home. And he had borrowed the buggy of a friend he knew there in the town where he was preaching. And during the service some of the boys in the back - you know, they sit in the back and are kinda rowdy - well they got out and switched the wheels of the buggy. So they put the back ones on the front and the front ones on the back. So he went home and slept real good and got up the next morning and looked kinda tired at the breakfast table. And the man says, "Man alive, what's wrong with you, preacher?" And the preacher says, "Well, I'll tell you. The sermon didn't get me down half as much as riding up hill all the way home." Okay - keep it coming. Fine. Okay. About three weeks ago - uh - at church the preacher was preaching on sex, you know. And he was up there just whaling away. And he says, "I want you-all as a congregation just to be real honest with me." He says, "How many of you have sex every day?" A few people raised their hands. "Fine." "How many of you people have sex, well, every other day?" Well, some more people raised their hands. "How many of you people have sex twice a week?" The majority of the people raised their hands. "How many of you people have sex about once 'a month?" Well, a few people raised their hands. "How many of you people have sex every six months?" Oh, 'bout three raised their hands. "How many of you people have sex once a year?" All of a sudden, this guy jumps up in the back, waving his arms, pointing at himself, and screaming and yelling. He said, "Well, my goodness, man, what's wrong with you?" He says, "Tonight's the night!" That's great. That's a good 'un. Okay, here's a true story my grandfather related to me once. One time he owned some apartments in West End and he had this old black man who used to work for him named John. And John was a preacher, on the side, and sort of, you know, layed roof and stuff like )1 (J P fA;! 1:,/ u (! - 18 - Inf. (con't): that and worked around for my grandfather. And John was a preacher and my grandfather was talking to him one day and he says, "Now, John", he says, "You're a preacher, aren't you?f1 "Yassir, I'm a preacher". He says, "Don't you go to a lot of circle meetings with the good looking women around and all dressed up?" And he says, "Oh, yas sir, I do." He says, "Now when the meeting's over, you know, and you've prayed with them and all that, don't they get kind of close to you and hug you and kiss you?" "Yas suh I That's why I be's the preacher". Res. That's pretty badl Hey, you mentioned that that was a true story, Bo, told you by your grandfather. Inf. : Right. Res. : Do you remember where you heard any of these other jokes? You know, who told them to you - what kind of circumstances .. ? Inf.: Okay. Going back to the Billy Graham one, I read that one from his biography. Res. : You read that one? Inf. : Yeah, I read that one. I read the one about Billy Graham from his biography. The one about the whores Res.: The hoe-ers? Inf. The hoe"ers. This was related to me by a country preacher who told me this. Re s. : Do you remember his name? Inf. : Yeah. It was - an easy name to remember. How was it? Ira Jones. Yeah, Ira Jones, from Cherokee County. Res.: Right. Inf. : Okay. The evangalist - I heard this - it was told to me by. Oh yeah, the one about the buggy was told to me by the educational director at the church where you go - uh - ....... Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. t Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. - 19 - Oh. Not Reverend Bingham? Yeah. Yeah, he told that one. Well, what do you know about that! The one about sex. I think I read that one in Playboy. Of course the other one is a true story. Now this one about welfare - these are real welfare letters. They really are. These are real welfare letteri. They get t em in and they put t em out in a little - uh - paper ... I don't know how often they do it. The first one I'll tell you is about the clergy. This black woman wrote in and says, - uh - she says - uh - the letter reads, "I had been sick in bed for two weeks and had been visited regularly in bed by the clergy." (laughter) And there's one more letter that's about the preachers, but it is rather humorous the way they get the words twis ted around. Jus t a simple le t ter, it reads, "My husband got his project cut off just two weeks ago and we haven'i~ had any relief since." (laughter) Wait - hold itl I wanted to give you some subtypes of jokes and see if you recall any jokes, that you maybe haven't told. You know, there's a kind of graveyard joke. Have you heard any jokes about graveyards? You know, colored people in graveyards - this kind of joke. Colored people in graveyards. Yeah, falling into open graves .. counting potatoes ... hearing people in graveyards .. anything along those lines. Dh. Hummm... I don't recall any right off-hand, Roger. Okay. Let me hit you with the kind of joke where the preacher pays somebody to go up into the rafters, and at a certain part in the sermon, to add some dramatic effect, by dropping some bread or ~ropping a pigeon or letting a dove loose .. ever heard any like that? Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : - 20 - I have heard. I don't recall. You might have one already. Do you have one about these? I don't know whether we do or not. There was one I don't recall about the preacher sending a boy up there and messing it up somehow. Okay. Um - ... any denominational jokes? Denominational jokes. Yeah. Right. Like the Protestant, the Catholic . There was one I remember very . there was, you know, they got to heaven, and this Episcopal - uh - this Episcopal got to heaven, you know, and he went up there and they let him in, you know, and showed him around . St. Peter showed him around and says, "Right here. All the Episcopals are sittin' in here." They opened the door and they weren't doing anything. You know, they were just doing a little bit, just talking or something. But weren't doing anything. They went next door and the Presbyterians were here - and the Presbyterians were doing a little more. They were having a little more fun than the Episcopals were. And then they opened a door and there were the Baptists, just raising hell, drinkin', smoking, cussin', layin' all these women and everything else, and when they shut the door the Episcopalian was shaking his head, he just couldn't understand it, and he says, "Great Day, St. Peter, what in the world are those Baptists doing in there doing all that?" And St. Peter said, "Well, when the Baptists were on earth, they couldn't do anythingl" Do you recall where you heard that one? Uh .. where did I hear that one ... ? Yeah . uh - uh this old Negro man told it to me. This old black man, I should say - he told it to me. He lived on my grandfather's place out in Douglasville, his name was - uh Jerdon .. Ralph Jerdon. Right. Did he tell you any more jokes like that? Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : - 21 - Uhhhh ... Let's see. Any jokes about the devil? The devil. Any jokes about Catholics - jewish people? Catholics. Ummmmm. Oh yeah, he did tell me one. UhThese two Catholic nuns .... no ..... yeah, he did tell me this and you know I heard it recently again and it's kinda funny, but he told it to me first. How long ago did he tell you this? This was four years ago. Four years ago he told me this joke. That would be 196 1966. 1966. And this'ijoke' s around today - you hear it a lot. But he said there was these two nuns walking down the street and there was a black nun and a white nun - and this nigger man came up and raped both of 'em. And the black nun was layin' here and the white nun was layin' here and all of a sudden the black nun listened over and heard the white nun sayin', "Lord, please forgive him for he didn't know what he was doin' ." And the black nun said, "Hell, he did!." (laughter) Speaking of the Catholics and nun, remember the Father confessing ..... Yeahl yeah! I remember that one .. now who told me that one, tho'? Uh - who told me that .... I'll tell it and then maybe I can remember who told it to me. Well, anyway, one time there was a - uh - this boy who went in to confess to the Father, you know, and he goes in there and he says, "Father, ... " There's two of 'em. Yeah, this is one of 'em. And there's another one. But this one is the first one. He says, "Father, " he says, llllve got some confessions to make." He says, lIyou know - 22 - In. (con't): runnin' around with these girls ... and sleeping with 'em .. " And the Father says, "Well can you tell me their names you have to tell me their names." And he says, "Well, I just can't do it." "Well, was it Mary?" And he says, "No." lIWas it Carolyn?" lINO.II "Was it Barbara?1f He says, "No. Father, I just can't tell you." "Well, I can't forgive your sins unless you tell me." "Well, I just can't tell you." "Well, maybe tomorrow." So he leaves and goes out the door, and sees a friend walking down the street, and he sees a friend, and he says "Hey! Bob, did you get your sins forgiven?" And he says,"No, but I got some great numbers to call!". (laughter) Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Here's another one, tho'. This is - uh - Oh yeah, I'm ~j remembering now. The Father and the confessions, and -uh - oh yeah - anyway this guy goes into the Father, you know, and he says, "Father, I've got somethin' to tell you. This is just killin' me and I know I'm goin' to hell." "Why, what's wrong?" And he says, "Well, yesterday I kissed a nun." And the Father looked at him and said, "Well, son, just don't get into the habit." (laughter) That's a killer. Yeah, I love that. Have you ever heard any of these jokes about the preacher? Reading scripture out of the Bible and mis-pronouncing something - or something that happens to the preacher during sermons? Jokes about long sermons - sermons th~:; are too long? Uh ....Well, I'll tell you this one joke~. Uh . there was ... oh wait, you remember about the Catholic jokes. I think .. one was told to me by a friend of mine - uh - wasn't but about a couple of months ago. His name was - uh - oh, which one was it ... there're two friends who tell me jokes . ... Stan ... Durren. Stan Durren. Okay, what does he do? - 23 - Inf. (con't): He works for Eastern Air Lines. Res. : Inf. : jl.es. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Oh. A member of your church? No, just a friend of mine I know out at the airport. Anyway, there's another joke I want to tell. It was told by Ben Hatfield - he's a preacher up at First Alpharetta. And he told this joke at a revival meeting I was at. He says - uh - That one time he was preachin' somewhere, you know, and - uh - he was up there, and he says, "Well, my watch seems broke - somebody want to lend me a watch so I can tell the time by - about how long I should preach1" So somebody gave him a watch, you know, and he just kept on preachin'. And he says, "Well, this watch seems to stop .. " And the man says, "Well, turn around, preacher, there's a calendar on the back wall." Right. Right. Any jokes about baptisms? Baptisms. Oh yeah. You know the joke about the - uh - uh - about this white church, and they're real proud about not having any black people in it, you know - and they'er real proud of it - and this one was told to me by - uh - uh - a black friend of mine - Clarence Dinsmore Anyway, they were baptising, you know, and after the service this guy goes back to the preacher, you know, and this guy - the janitor, outside - the janitor, overhears them talking and the man says, "Well, preacher, what are we going to do if some black person comes in?" And he says, '~ell, we've had that problem before. But we have approached it seriously and prayerfully and last time it happened, when a black man came forward and wanted to be a member of the church, we said, sure we'll baptise him. So we took him up there to the baptismal pool and we baptised him and - you know, he just wouldn't get baptised, and I had to hold him down for at least an hour - and when I pulled him up, he was dead." Right. Any jokes about the sacraments? Inf. : Res. : - 24 - The sacraments? Yeah. Oh I don't mean the sacraments. I mean - uh you know, the Lord's Supper or Communion. Inf. : Res. : Lord's Supper or Communion. The wine and the wafers .. Vh - let's see. Inf. : Res. : Yeah. No, I really don't know any jokes - I don't believe I've heard any about the wine and the wafers. Any about the Baptists taking up offerings? Or the Jewish people being stingy? Or - uh - the Catholics and what they believe. In. : Res. : Yeah. All right! There's a little song I once heard. Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : In. : Res. : Inf. : There's a little song that goes something like - uh - Could you sing it? Yeah. I'll be glad to. This boy in Montgomery, Alabama, sung it to me one time .... "I don't care if it rains or freezes, as Long as I've got my plastic Jesus, sittin' on the dashboard of my car . " That's about it. Rightl Movin' right along. Can you think of anything else. Any other - uh - jokes. Let's see ... I'm trying to think of categories . and I think I'm about . Well, there's one you always . well, you got these guys, you know, these real hip evangalists, you know and they're always talking about opening up their hymn books, and turning over in their hymn books, you know - to page so-and-so. This is kind of an impossibility - I haven't seen too many people turn over their hymn books - but that's just a little side line .. let's keep it goin' . Yeah - a little short subject - like the hymn "I Stand Amazed in the Presence. ;: .. " Yeah. Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : - 25 - That's that song about Christmas morning. Sompin' like that. Yeah - that's bad, Rogerl There's a couple of those. Yeah. I can't really think of any more. Uh ... uh . Any jokes about what kids think of church? Misunderstandings. Or misunderstanding what the preacher said. Telling it to Mother ... I was visiting in the home of some people - I won't mention the name - somebody at my church. I was visiting in their home and their little girl - she's real bright about four years old and we were talking about Communion Service, and you know, about how good it was and all, that . and she looked up and said "I don't like Communion". Mother says, "What?" She says, "You've never taken me". She says, "I did one time". She says, "When?" "Well, you took me one time and I didn't like it - the grape juice was hot I" Okay, let me ask you some questions . All right, my wife's in the car .. That's a nice jokel No, this'll just take a second. Okay. Urn. Why do you think people tell preacher jokes? Why do I think people tell preacher jokes. Uh - I think . What purpose do these serve? at I think it easy to identify with. You laugh MXKH things you identify with. You know, and the majority of people this is getting away from it somewhat - but the majority - 26 - Inf. (con't): of people still still go to church and they can still identify with the preacher. And if you can identify with something and you're part of it, you gonna laugh at it, you know. It's like - you know - people making jokes about anything. A Negro joke, for instance. In any ethic group - you see it and it's real life, and it's real. Res.: Kind of the same as slap-stick humor. People laugh, at somebody getting hit in the face with a pie. Inf.: Yeah. Um - and also, it's very serious. Religion is a very serious thing and that would make it more easy to laugh at. You know, there are many different, .. you know, there's seriousness, and laughter and happiness and joking, and if you joke at something real serious, it'd be easier to laugh at it because it's an extreme. Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : How about - uh - in particular jokes about the preacher. Do you think they could be to - uh - well, what do you think they're particularly for? Uh - They like to make jokes about the preacher because - uh - it's like about the President. Any time anybody is in the limelight or they are a particular person - I don't mean a peculiar person or that they are odd or something - but that they are distinct, they're different, they're set-up, so to speak. Anything that is set-up or you're in the public eye, it's good to poke fun at you Does it make them more human - uh - or does it bring 'em down to the regular level, or - uh or is it kind of an under-cutting? I don't know, but I don't think it brings them down unless they tell the jokes. If you make jokes about them, you sort of keep them up there, because you make them special. You make jokes about them because they are special. Do you think that there is in some of these jokes a kind of genuine dislike for the authority - uh - in religion? Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : - 27 - I thin~, probably if a Baptist tells a Catholic joke, that he's got a basic dislike of the Catholics, you known, the nuns and all that. You know, it's humor, and so they poke fun at it. How about some jokes about preachers that make a lot of fun of immorality in preachers, and like preaching long sermons, in other words, it's the length of the sermon that counts, it's not what he says - you know, and they really pbke kind of a n edging finger at the preacher although everybody laughs, you know - uh - it could be another motive. What do you think about that? Do you think that's a prevalent reason? .. 1 mean, the jokes that you've heard, are the people trying to get at the preacher? Well, I don't know. They've probably heard them someplace else - and probably originally they were said in this light because - uh - there are so many county preachers who do just preach thinking that the Lord'd just bless them if they preach two hours and they're sweatin' in their shoes and their socks are down in their shoes and their pants are about to falloff - and so people create these jokes because it's real - they see it happen. And - uh - I don't know if it's undercutting or not - uh - sometimes they do it out of love and sometimes they do it, like you say, out of - oh, to undercut or poke or be sarcastic of, or satire, and on and on. I don't know, it comes from various ways. It's all in the way it's told and the feeling. If you tell it with - uh - hatred and malice - uh - you know, there's two types of satire - there the - uh - juvenelian satire which is bitter and cutting and there's - uh - Horatian satire which is more laughable. Well, it's all in the way you tell it. If you tell it bitter and cutting, then'.it's intended to be undercutting, but if you tell it to be laughable, then it's a sort of communication, a - uh humor between two people. Yeah. I see - maybe it carries a message that is not as verbal - it can be one or the other with the same words. Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : Inf. : Res. : - 28 - Yeah. It all depends on how you do it. It's - you know, uh - how you deal with humanity in general. Well, how do you feel about passing this little test you had this afternoon? (laughter) I really appreciate it. Glad to do it. Shoot you in. Take it ~asy and hang in there. You too. Get some supper and go to bed. That's what I'll do!
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Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions.
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