Mike Moss interview with Ross Brown, Merle Berring, and Evan Berrong (part two)

The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. This is the second part of a three part interview, in it the interviewees play folk music. Some songs have lyrics and others are instrumentals. Songs include Think of Me When Youre Lonely, Crying My Heart Out Over You, and Im Using My Bible for a Roadmap. Jay Ross Brown (1909-2001) was born in Georgia to Emma Brown (1870-1932) and Lona Cicero Brown (1867-1928). He completed one year of high school and then worked as a laborer on his familys farm throughout his 20s. Ross later worked in construction as a crusher operator. In 1934 Brown married Callie Gertrude Cunningham (1914-1990) and the couple had one child, James Elliot Brown (1935-2011). Merle Berrong (1918-2000) was born in Georgia to Emory Speir Berrong (1880-1942) and Hettie Berrong (1891-1975). Additional biographical information has not been determined. Instrumentals; Fiddle Folklore. Collected 4 Date- May h, 1968 Place- Joe Miller's house Participants- sam Hilson Harrison, Joe Miller and Irving Penso. The first song recorded was Harrison's March, written by Mr. Harrison. The following three songs were: \ofednesday Night Haltz, lbwn Yonder and Red River . =- 1>1 ~ ._Ja_ll_ey. In the next to songs, Hr. Harrison attempts to sing. Unfortunately, not ~. tall of l-mat was sung was recorded. Old Joe Clarke (&>th) Turkey in the Straw- Date- May 11, 1968 Place- Joe Miller's House " I'm gonoa work and play got no time ( or where) to lay my head lookin for the day Fare-thee-l-Iell, Ole Joe Clark Fare-thee-well now(?) Fare-thee-well, Ole Joe Clark I'm gonna leave this tOml. II "Oh I went to milk thi"s ole cow one COl-T-poke showed me how, ole CO.I she started to run saw a tom turkey, I'm a son-of-a-gun Turkey in the Straw.~ " Participants- sam ,dlson Harrison, Joe Miller and Irving Penso. Penso- The first song we're gonna play is uh, Ill- uh, a Wild.rood Flo.rer. sam- "G" Music till the end Penso- That t-Tas real good. Uh, not-T ya'll know uh, Bile them Cabbage down?, oJJJ.. Sam- Take it al-Iay, Joe. I think you can beat me at Ieactillg "'tltit"OH'. Husic till end Penso- That rs a, That's a- Is that, is that a fairly old ~ song a? I mean is that-- . Joe- That's one of the old type fiddle tunes. Sam- Yeah, yeah- that's an ole type. Joe- Ole type. Pense- Did uh, did your parents teach you that or ya'll just pick it up and learn it from hearin other people play? I know Mr. Harrison said on the l-la,V over here that he heard other people play. That' 5 why that, you knOt-T, he learned it. Joe- vJell, yes. B He been hearing it all our life. Ever since we ;rere little fellers. It' 5 an ole violin tune, ole country Jig that' 5 been handed-dol-m through the generations. Probably several hundred years old. sam- Yeh, I don't know where it originate. I been hearin it ever since I was a little kid. Penso- Just like, just like Ilearin nusery rhymes when you're young. It's the same thing I suppose. Joe- It's like it. Penso- Uh, now ya'll mentioned ya'll know uh, vlhistling Rufus. Is that one ya'll kno~l too? That ya'll can play? Sam- That's one you can he fiddle to. I can't lead. Can you lead it? Joe- No, I'm afraid not, Sam. ' Penso- Oh, that's a fiddle- how aboutfm, Billy in the Low Ground? Joe- No, I'm not too good on that either. You might play it, sam. Maybe youSam- No, I don't think I can do that one. Penso- Uh, Cackling Hen? Joe- Can you do that, sam? Sam- No, you lead it off. I'll follow ya on that.o Penso- Okay, they're gonna play Cackling Hen now. Joe- I, I'm not to sure I can do that, Sam, or not. We'll see. Sam- Well, cut loose on it than maybe if you don't do it I'll follow along with it. Joe- I, I, I, I, guess I better not try that cause I'M not too good on-- Sam- Let's, let's skip that one Penso- Okay then we're not gonna to do Cackling Hen then. How about, Sally Goodin? Music until end Penso- That one sounds that it'd be great with uh, 1-1Ords to it, I tell ya. (Laughter) Penso- Uh, Sourhood--SoUI'lIDod Mountain. Joe- ;'lell, that's a old 11m tune, but ub, I don't believe sam and I ever did that too much together. Pensp- 1I'Iould-- Joe- Both of those tunes are uh, those old country jigs, we 00, played on the violine and- on the a fiddle 1I'e call it- and uh, a course uh, a lot of 'em Here instrumental too, but this is one we never did do a whole lot. We always let Mr. Gid play that on the fiddle, ya kno~l. sam- Gid Turner. Penso- aid Turner, yeh. Joe-Fiddlin Gid Tanner, yes. Penso- vlell,uh, how about Johnson's Old Gray Mule? Joe- Sam, can ya do that one? ." Music until end Penso- That was- that was real good. Uh, I know that John Henry' .'I a popular song that' .'I always been played, you know, especially in the country areas of, of the state and allover t.l1e South, I suppose. Ub, is that sort of sota like the same type of song that you'd learn from your, form youx know, just pickin it up from other people? . Sam- Well, that's an ole one, that's an ole one too. That '.'I a been played years and years. Joe- Yes, everfsince childhood. I remember that very well. Penso- Can ya'll play that one? Joe- Yes. Penso- Okay, they're gonna play,John Henry now. Music until end--- Mr. Harrison improvises a ]jlttle on his banjo during the song. Penso- That was very good. (Laughter) Especially the added attraction cr.r Mr. Harrison. Ub, now uh, m.ack-eyed Susie' .'I a popular song too. Do ya(ll know that 6ne? Joe- Ub, that's, that's a very old tune. I don't know if we remember that one too well. Ya see, we have 'nt had a chance to rehearse any of this. Penso- I know. It's all uh, you know, spontaneous. 80 it's-- Joe- That's right. Since I,e have'nt had time to rehearse anything. Sam and I 5 Joe(con't)- have'nt played any together in oh, I guess a year or two. And, except for a little spot playin once in a l;hile and-- do you remember it sam? Sam- I was just tryin and I, I don't think we'd do any good playin that. It's a-Let's, let's just omit that one. Joe- Okay. Penso- Okay, we'll think of somethin else. Uh, Hreck of the Old 97. Uh, I remember ya'll mentioned that. Joe- That's a good one. JflUsic until end---(In the middle of the song, this is .That 'las said~ Sam- Sing a little of it, Joe(Sam laughs and then begins to sing) "They gave him his orders at Nonroe, Virginia sayin see 11 It's toe high, I can't reach it. Penso- That was a nice try Mr. Harrison. Sam- Yeh, a little bit high key there. I could'nt reach it. Penso- I see. Uh, The Little }lohee, is that a--that sounds like an Indian name, Mohee, is that ? - ' Sam- That's right. Joe- Yes, that's right. This song was composed about an Indian maid. This is an old one too. Do you remember any of the l'1Ords to that, Sam? }fusic until end Pense- Sounds like an Indian lullaby or somethin like that. Sam- Yeh that's kinds that-- i Penso- Uh, before ya'll were singing uh, Devll!lish Man;:. Do ya'll know the. tune? I know, I mean, I'm sure ya'll know the tune, but do ya'll knorl any words that ya'l1 could maybe sing along to, to help it out some? Joe- It I s ki: li:t' s real old. Penso- Uh, Little N~ FagaJ;f!..s. a pop~arn song. '"e've mentioned it in class a few times. Do you all knoH that one? ,,~~~ Joe- Uh, we knOrT the words uh, can play the music rather. Penso- Okay. Music until end--~There is an obstruction in the middle of this particular song. I must have inadvertently moved my hand in front of the mike). Sam- That's an old one"boy. Joe- Yes it is. That was liritten by Fiddlin John Carson. Pense- Fiddlin John Carson, yah. "fe studied him in class :ttiI too. He's the one that recorded that record in 1923; I think that lole ,rere talkin about him in class. Joe- Right. Composed the Hords and the music. Penso- Must've been a smart man. Uh, does Little Rosewood Casket fing a bell with any of ya'll? Do ya'll remember that one, recall that one at all? Joe- I can remember the tune to If?!) I think. Pense- That'll be good. Music until end. Penso- Those little ad--. Those little added attractions at the end, really make the song interesting. (Group Laughter). At least--. Sam- Shave and a haircut--. Penso- Right. Sam and Penso- Two bits. (More Laughter). Penso- Uh, On Top of Old Smokey' Sam- Nm, they've gone up a little. Pense- You'd better believe it. (More Laughter). Gain-up to around eight bits pretty soon. Jge- Yeh. Penso- Do ya'll knorl On Top of Old Smokey? Music until end Sam- I think that rocks(?) likeLitlleMohee, don't ~lOU? 6 7 Penso- That did sound like Little Mohee a little. Sam- Yeh. Penso- It resembles--. Joe- Practically the same thing. Sam- Viell, I tell ya, I, I did'nt know, I did'nt lmow there was so much similarity till I started playin it. Penso- I guess that's the way it is wen you're not familiar with it for a long time. Then you start playin it again. Sam- Yeh. Penso- Uh, do Ya'll know Barbry Allen? Joe- I used to knOH it, but It's been a long time. I don't know if I-- not having the words and being able to sing it. I don't know ii: I can do ya any good on that or not. Penso- Uh, how about the Orphan Girl or Kitty Wells? Joe- Trie used to do P.t:!i~.Jidls, a ggod bit. Do you remember that, Sam? Sam- I don't know how to lead it off though. You lead it if you can, I can't think--. Joe- Play it in "G". rie might playa verse or two of it. SiIIx Sam- Alright. Music begins and Joe sings: "You ask ,rhat makes this darkie weep weny he like others am not keep(?) \-lhat makes the tears fall down his cheek From early morn to close of day Sam- Oh sing it, Joe. My story, darkies you should hear For in my memory it dwells ~~causeyou all to drop a tear For the dream of my sweet Kitty Wells." End of song Penso- That was very good. Very good singing, Mr. Miller and very good banjo playing on your-- on both ya'l1 parts. Gui-- guitar playin. The words came-out pretty easy did'nt they? Joe- Oh yes. We used to do that a lot on the air back when I ;ras back on the radio back in the '39, '88 and '39 on up into '43. lie used to have a lot of requests for that number. Penso- Uh, do you find that being, you know, more or less oriented to"ard uh, what well, ;re in the city call- "Hillbilly lfusic"-- uh, really does that uh, really help you to remember a-lot of'the old, older songs" Are, are they really similar or aft} they more or less, bro different things? Joe- ~iell, they're very nmch similar, yes. Uh, a course uh, you IDPli:::t can get-it's easy to get those old tunes all tangled-up in your mind, you know, if you have'nt studied the words ilIl a good many years; and the tunes are so nearly alike. Uh, Folk J~usic is-- it follows pretty near the same pattern, ;,a know. And it~s -every easy to get 'em confused and mixed~up. SO, if you don't have the words to go, to refer back to, a lot of times you \olill get uh, kinda in a category, maybe it's a littl~ off; off taste of the original, ya kno..t-- ya see. Penso- I lmo.., what you mean. We're just gonna let the rest of this tape play out since there's only a little bit left. End of Side One. Side 1'>ro- Sam-'-.1rJe're gonna play an old number-- about a couple or thr.ee~.em. That's a].ittle more moderin, but we's moderin too, ya lmo;r. ~ ~jj Penso- That I s right. . Music until end. Sam- let's do a littl. '~f that Cold, Cold Heart. Ya won8t to? I ~,apped a bicycle for it. It turned out the bicycle ~lOuld'nt last ya 8 Penso- Before you start, Mr. Harrison, 00, what was the name of that song? Sam- Your Cheatin Heart. Penso- Your Ch-- I did'nt even recognize it. I don't know why. Sam- Yeh. Penso- Ya know, I'm used to it goin sorta faster. Sam- And there's another one that ole Hank played and composed, it's a Colill, Cold Heart. Music until end sam- Let's do a little bit of one that I made-up myself. This is real pretty. Now, just listen at it. - Music until end. penso- That's very good, Mr. Harrison. Have you given that a title? Sam- Ub, I dont title it. I just let that go for 1-that it's trorth. Joe- sam, tear off a little of 00, Redwing,thats an old Indian tune. Sam- Ub, yeh, boy. we forgot that when we was doin dem other old ones, E-edtdng. 00" Music until end..-- In the middle of the song, Hr. Harrison said: ~- J40ve that thing (microphone) over closer to the guitar. Penso- That one's called Red'dng? Sam- Redtdng, that 1s right. That's another Indian rromber. Joe- That's an Indian song. Pe~~o- I see. It's like--. Sam- Ole Redwing, she lias an Indian maid. Penso- I see. Ub, let's see Do ya'll know The Devil and the Farmer's Wife? Joe- No, I sure donlt. sam- No, I 00, 00, know the devil and the farmer' s ~1ife, but not (Uncontrolled Laughter) not in the liay of music. Penso- Oh! Jll'. Harrison (More Laughter) I asked for musiv and now I got both comedy and lIlUsic. They now begin to play a song. lfusic until end Sam- The Great R~c;k4tq,.Jli~.. That's a good ole tune ain't it? Joe- Yessir, that's a pretty one. Penso- That's one called the Great Specll:led Bird? Hhen did ya'll first start playin~- I meant to ask ya'll that. Sam- I started pl~yin about eight years old I guess. Penso- Eight years old. Sam- Uh huh, I got an old fiddle. Penso- That's lIhy it's a ggd swap. now. How about you Mr. dJ.ler? Joe- Oh, I guess I was about twelve or fourteen when I started playing the guitar. I played the harmonica ever since I been big enough to walk. Penso- Really? Joe- Yes sir. Penso- That's really somethin. Joe- And ub, I've loved music all my lidle. Penso- It seems like it. Ya'll sure lmo~' a lot of, you knOH, good songs. Ya'll can really play well, I tell ya. It's really a-- it's tealJ;;1 a clalllPliment to ya'p. and to the-- to Folk Music I guess you could say, that ya'll can still remember 'em. Cause it shows "ell, that they can last a long time. L:mger than most popular music does. Joe- Yeh, Folk Music is really a part of America, ya lmo" it's really AmeriCU4n Heritage..And I think it's somethin that'll never die. Ub, popular music is, is good. I like it, but uh, the old fashioned folk music is still carrying its weight 9 Joe(con't)- in society today and it always w:ill. I believe it'll alHays have its place in American music. Penso- I'll have to agree with you. It seems--. Sam- I think it's gettin more popular all the time. I mean more people like it. Hey, did you know that a banjer, I had been told, was the only true American instrumBBt that they are. Have you ever heard that, Joe? Joe- Yes I have. Uh huh. Sam- I don't mow who made the first one or what--. Joe- No, I don't have any history--. Sam- I seen a cartoon one time about uh, pullin a hair out of a possum's tale to uh, make strings for a banjer. An ole colored man was doin that. I don't know what the symbol "as. But they claim that they are the only real old American instrument they are. Pense- It's possible. Uh, do ya'll know an;y- uh, any Negro folk tunes by any chance? I mo,l that you knOl' Ki.tty Hells. Sam- Yeh, I know onll'. I Imm< one that T,as more popular than any one I knew as I was comin-up as a boy was this ole st. Louis _Blues? Did you ever hear that? Penso- That's, I think that's, Jra knOfl--. .. Sam- That's, that's an old one. Let's try a little bit of it. It's been years since i tried it before. Let's do it in the key of "G" maybe I can--. 11usic until end Sam- Ahh, tha Has the ole St. Louis Blues. That's a pretty good ome nUl1lber. Penso- That is. That's, that's a popular song nOl'a--. Lot of the popular entertainers use that, you mO'l as a xbxt sort of a way to gain popularity. Joe- They played it a flhole lot faster than now. Penso- Yeh. Sam- Yeh, yeh that's the old, old original one the way I learned it. Joe- It' s go~, got that jazz sound to it now. Penso- TlBt's ,mat--. Sam- It was an old record that was an old round disc. It- I learned it form an old Edson, you know, talkin machine. That's where I learned that tune. Joe- Yes, uh huh. One of those old tubular type recordings. Sam- I mean that Has years and years ago. Let's do a little bit of Dixie. Music begins and they play three tunes in one-- Dixie, }lay down upon the Se,1<I!le8' River and I'm looking over a four-leaf clover. - i Sam- A four-leaf clover. Pense- We got a rrhole melody-- a whole melody of songs there?--A .mole round of 'em. Uh, do ya'll mow the ltlddle Song? Joe- No I don't. Penso- I gave rrry love a P:i:Ja:kBK cherry, ya know, I gave IIl,V love a chicken and every-it's a, that's an old song. Sam- Yeh, that's an old one, but I can't play it. Joe- That's an old one) that's an old one 'bout, 'bout--. Sam- Really, I knO,l it, but I don't it. I kno"" it, but I can't play it. But I've heard i~, but--. It's really a good one, though. Joe- Yeh, that's an ole timer. That's one of the oldest ones I can think of. Sam- Hummmm. Joe- Barbry Allen, I gave my love a cherry--. Penso- And The Orphan Child. That's, that's a popular one too. Joe- Yeh. Florella lliIlUJlkJ: that's an old tune. Sam- Yeh, Florella and uh, Ohio, Knoxville Girl. Joe- Knoxville Girl, yeh. Penso- Do ya'll kno",,--? Sam- Let's see. How'd that Ohio go? That Has a pretty un. Joe- I forgot, sam. I don't-- I thought maybe--. MUsic until end 10 During the playing of the piece, Mr.Harrison connnented. Sam- I did'nt know that one no nay. I made it. Sam- First time I've played that I betcha in thirty-five years. Joe- Ha, Ha. " Ssm- Jus happened to think of it ~men he mentioned it there. I happened to think of the "ray the tune went. Joe- Yeh. Penso- That was called Ohio? Sam- Ohio, uh huh. ' Once again they break into a ne"l song with no warning. !'lusic until end ~_.; Sam- Joe, ya knon t,e have'nt played that ole tune uh, Under the Double Eagle yet. Joe- No. Sam- iVe used to do that all the time. Let's do that in the key of" "C" okay? Joe- Alright. Sam- Is tin t alright VTith you? Penso- l'Jhat was, ~at was that song before. You knoy, that ya just got through playin. ;.Jhat "ras the name of that one? The one that you just started-off on? Joe-Excuse me ya'll, I think I hear my telephone. Penso- Okay. (Joe leaves the room to answer his phone). Sam- Uh, let's see I done forgot what it was nOl'. I mean I tolas ' nt payin any attention when I was played it. 1"las the one jus before that Q--? Penso- Jus, just the one ya just got through--. Sam- Ohio .you know. Penso- It was the one after Ohio. Sam- Yeh. Penso- The one you just got through playin. Sam- Oh you mean that one? Penso- Uh huh. Sam- That one was uh,let's see what's the name of that ole tlUle now? Penso- Sometiimes it's hard to remember, I know. Sam- Yeh it is. I can't remember the name of the tune. Penso- Hell, we'll leave that one as anonymous. ",e won't have a name for that ona Sam- Uh, we riJight think of that one after a .lhile. Penso- Ya knOl' I'm sorry I, !miss this uh, the first one that we played, Going Down the Road Feelil).g Bad. Iwas-- and uh; cause I, you mo,,! the tape recorder uh, the microphone, the other millrophone was 'nt workin. Do you think you could playa little of that? Sam- Goin Down tJ;1~RolL~e.elin Bad-- yeh I could play it, but when he gets off the phone it'd .be better VTith bro, but I'll dlo a little of it now if you want to. Penso- \vell, okay; well maybe that Hay it'll make-up for it. Samm begins to play and to sing: "I'}I goin dOrm the road feelin bad I'm goin down the road feelin bad I'm goin dOl-lIl the road feelin bad, lDrd, lDrd And I ain't gonna be healed this-a way. I'm goin t-mere the water drinks like tdne I'm goin where the Hater drinks like VTine I'm goin where the water drinks like VTilI8, lDrd, lDrd And I ain't gonna be healed this-a way. End of song (Joe re-enters the room) Laughter by Sam and Joe. Sam- We're just a rehashin on a little that we missed out on there ,mile agol 11 Penso- Yeh, I missed that one on the first tilne. l'e:J]. I tell you--. sam- What, lmat Has that last number we was a play:i.n lillen ya went there, Joe, to ansHer the phone? I-- he asked me lmat the name of it was and I, I did'nt even know. I mean uh, would it a been--? Joe- Let me study it a minute now. Let's see uh. Oh I don't know. I get so shookup when es....-. Different ones eall and they uant me to do differen..t things on the rod-- on the broadcast tommorrow. Let's see uh. Penso- It's not that ilnportant, really. Sam- If you, if you'd back-up a little bit and play it, >Ie can tell ya in a minute. He'll, we'll let ya know. Penso- Well okay. Sam-Cause it'd the one just before this thing I done with the banja, Goin Do,m The Road Feelin J3l. and--- like that. Let's do this one in "C", uh, Under the Double Eag}-~yo)1 don't mind. That's a good m un. Music to end Sam- Boy, that's another good ole tune. I love that. That was ole Bob Hells and his Texas Playboy wud'ny it:lt~ The ones tffi t uh, recorded that and made a ss~ hit, such a hit long about 19 and 39 and 40, along in there? Joe- I believe it was, uh huh. sam- I think it was. Boy, that ,laS the prettiest thing that guitar comin and-I was hopin you'd do it but uh, ya did'nt take a lead there. If you'd a eame in there on, ya know-. Joe- No, uh uh..-- that the way they they did it, they p1ayed--- they played the march uh, I meant, they played the Ifhslp:parl:xiJitx march in "F". First, they played the first part in "C" and they played the other part in "F". Sam- Yeh, that's right. They changed keys did'nt they? Joe- Yeh. Sam- That I s l>l1en the guitar would take the lead, ,muld' nt it? Joe- Yeh, that's right. Sam- Yeh, well I gHl!lIX jus did'nt think the ;ray it ;rent. An<fway it-- that, that'll make ya some racket a!\Yl'ay. He'll enjoy it. Penso- Well, we have uh, we have time for around one or two more songs. Do ya'll think ya'll could p1ay?(?) sam- Yell, let's do this here one uh--Music starts and sam soon says: Sam- I don' love you now(?) Unfortunately, I had to break-in on this last piece in order to end the tape before it ran-out. Penso- Uh, l.e're gonna end-up now. I-Ie had--- sorry He had to cut into the middle of a song, but a, I "anna thank both Mr. Joe I'dller and Mr. Sam .li1son Harrison for their kind assistance and their excellent guitar and banjo playing and singing, "men possible. And uh, if they have any_thing to say, I .lish they would. Joe- Thank ~, neighbor. It's been a pleasure to do this little ~ recording for ya and we trust that it'll be a, a blessing to somebody. I might bring back some old-tilne memories of old folk music. Thank you very mueh. Penso- I sure hope 80. End od tape A PDF transcript exists for this recording. Please contact an archivist for access. Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. 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