Kay DuVornet interview with Charlie Spaulding, Francis (Frank) O’Neill, and Arthur Deverger (part three)

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This is the third of a three-part recording. It begins with Frank ONeill, a British man, telling a humorous story about an American woman smoking at the Duke of Marlboroughs dinner table. He then tells three funny stories about King Edward VII, English manners, and the aristocracy. 8:58: ONeill next tells a ghost story about a phantom horse that galloped across his grandparents lawn and jokes about the aristocracy going on fox hunts. At 13:22, he explains a superstition that rabbits are people in disguise. He then tells Irish stories called Pat and Mike jokes. And at 16:15 he talks about the legends of King Arthur, Robin Hood, and Stonehenge. Returning to the topic of fox hunting at 19:51, ONeill talks about superstitions about foxes and legendary fox hunts. He also tells humorous stories about George Osbaldeston, also known as Squire Osbaldeston, an English politician and sportsman. 25:50: Next he repeats funny stories and jokes about Oxford professors and students. And at 35:35 he tells a legend from his village about an army that got lost on the moors and claims that a house in his village is evil. At 39:09, ONeill tells more funny Oxford stories. Next at 48:32, he says that his grandmother did not know that she was pregnant when she gave birth to his father in Charleston, South Carolina. He then tells a couple of humorous stories about Lord Anglesey and cannonballs. At 56:00, he repeats an anecdote about Winston Churchill and Carlisle, an author. 1:00:41: ONeill tells a humorous and somewhat antisemitic story about a Jewish millionaire and younger Jewish businessman.
Charlie Spaulding (1858-?) was born on Sapelo Island in McIntosh County, Georgia. He worked on Charles Spauldings plantation as a freeman, then moved to Savannah, Georgia. He had a son, Thomas Spaulding. Arthur Derverger (1887-1973), cousin to Charlie Spaulding, also lived in McIntosh County, where he worked on a farm. He married Eva Moran (1888-?) and they had five children: Victor Derverger (1911-2003), Roberta Derverger (1916-1993), Ezekiel Derverger (1919-1988), Arthur Derverger Jr. (1920-?), and Viola Derverger (1922-2002). Francis (Frank) ONeill (1943- ) was born in Atlanta, Georgia. His family moved to Charleston, South Carolina, when he was six months old and stayed until he was four. After his parent's divorce, he moved with his mother to Windsor, England, and then to Geneva, Switzerland. He graduated from boarding school in England and later from Oxford with a degree in modern history. Afterward, he returned to Atlanta where he worked at the Dekalb New Era and the Atlanta Magazine.
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'. -.')1. ~_ \1 ~ __ ) oho..\jr i>\ ,)1 \ 1:)(, ""~6)(h)!\~ ( ck,n),\;\ \ , ''', , . j , Corporate 'reI, ,) dv\..\'" ~) J.' I \ names () i <.1' Geographic SIb," ( , he ,\,' ,.(,.I locations ~ () lJ . Topics /H, ',I f'" \ /.\ \~,!\t'i''.(".\'\" ',';.. . ~')I' k".",\ >, ~\ '\ ' ,- SU'i"" ,\ ," I"' , \ j"\t,. '; S'\H\ (.',) 1- . Folktale Collection lCa.v DuVornet Folk 301 Bm'rison I. Charlie Spalding. A" Background and Introduction ... 0 " I B stO"."J ,. Old MJ,ssus ComAv Back "II I II. Frank O'Neill. A. Background and Intr'oduction " "" VI I B. Stories, Superstitions, Anecdotes, Etc. L The Duke of Marlhorongh and the American Lad,Y 1 2. King 'Edward and the Finger Bowl .... " ".. ""...... , "... ".. "... ".. "..... ".. " 1 3. King Edward and the French Lady 2 ". King Edward and the Rlack Cufflinks .. ".. "". """"".. """"". ".. ", .. ".. " 3 5. A Ghost Horse on the Lawn 3 6" The'!} Parson at the Fox Hunt" ... "" ...... """"""."" .. "".""""""""""".". 5 7. Th(';j Arrogant Hunt.er " 6 8. The'Powers_of the Hare ~ ~ ~ 6 9. Pat and }like and the Bricks .. "."."""""""" " ".". ~" ~" " . 7 10" The Prot.estants in Belfast .... ,,"" ~ ~ ..... ~ . . . . . .. 8 11. King l\rt.hnr 1 s Sleep" ".. ~ ....... " ~ . 8 12. ,Strange Inheritances of Hounds.""" 0." " "." 10 13. ';'lhat Verminous Foxes Do . "". ~ ".".". ~ ~" .. ~ ..... 10 14. The Horse ','.rho Leapt a Fort,y-Four .Foot Ditch . ".. ~ "11 15" Squire Osbnlston 'I\trns Over' the Dog' Cart .............. ~l? 16. Squire Osbalston Burns His Night Shirt 12 17. The Unflappable Scout ~ .. It II 14 18. The Drunk Student and the Illall 15 19. Daniel Meinershagen1 s Special Subject 16 20. The Loss of queen Victoria's Army l? 21. The House of Doom , 18 22. Dr. Spooner and the Poor Scholar 19 23. The Rector of Exetor at Battels Checks . ,20 24. The Preabher and the Charleston Flood 21 25. Dolphus and the Mass Bells 22 (Told by Margaret Hurst, Frankl s cousin) 26. The Hermit of the Lakemont "faterfall. .. 23 27. The Birth of Frank's Father, . 23 28. How Gharlestonians are Llke Chinesfl .. 25 29. The SoldierTNho Lost his Leg 26 30. The Soldier 'Nho Kioked the Cannonball 26 31. Nhat Mr. Church1.11 !laid to Mr. Palings . 27 32. What Mr. Chruchi11 !laid to Barbara Castle 27 33, Carlisle and the Unwanted Visitor... 28 3h. The Rich Jew and the Poor One . 30 35. The British Tank Commander . 30 36. Tale of the North Country Shop Girl 30 III, Notes. I Charlie Spalcllng Tnt rocluctlon Bill "!Inn, who holpcd me collect my st.orioR, and I met. Charlie 'lpi\lrling for the fj.x'st. ~lm0 on a dirt. roacl t.h-lt. lod off Int.o t.ho vlOods of lIcInt.os\) ':ount.,Y, ~;orgia. l'.1e )\:.vl lY_c01l t(l]J; about him by !lir; cou('3il.11, /\y'thur D~V01'ger, a Neg-po abou.t eighty ,voars old, Arthur t.old us t.hat. CharU" wac, a huridred and thirt.een years old and had livod in slavory timo. 'Ihen we found Charlie, ho Vias walking dOl/n t.he road, neatly dr"sc,ed in pants, coat, a.nd hat, betwGen a tall thin me.n and a ].5. tt.lo hoy. Charl:!." Vias oxt. remely shott., about. fIve fe"t tall, and fairly lar!!e around the middle.:!" could 8ce that he hardl,Y understood what we WGre saying from th" car, so 1'10 dlc:ided to approClch him 18ter l.mrlet' more relax.ed conditions. rh.3 next clay we located h:i.m in an old road-side store, dressed exactly as ~'" had been ~he clay before, waiting to bo tAken hack t.o his h6.me in 3avannah, where he Uvea with hls son, 3" tlllked to hIm for about thirt" minutes, prohlng' for an,rt,hlng ttl:-lt ressemhled a story, without much success. Several .ch:iJ.dren and a ffi,-:lll and 8 woman Were In the store liatenlng, but they said little. Ahout all Charli.e could rememher were vague facts about hIs own lIfe, hut he dld tell, J.n a fragmenLecl fashJ.on, ;,1n old sLory ahout a r,')vonant, which we rocordecl. ""e located his son, thinldng that. he might be of some assIstance, hut rhOIl~lS "palding was somewhat in "the Sunday 1lond:ltion" nnd vu:lSn't able to give us an,Y help, II He dJ.d 10,,11 us that .3apelo Island Is 'IIhere Charlie "spr'ing from," CharEe kept repollting tflilt he was born in IlcKintosh county, but nevor told us exactly where. Since thJ.s COllntJ' was the locatim of the r:harJ.os Spalding plantation, we assumed that Charlie was probahly named for his old master, '.'Ie were told hy r:harlie and his son that r:harlJ.e had never '""m a slave, but had 'IlOrke(l for r:harles Spalding as a freeman. Most of his wo)'king ,yoars were spent In the fields. Charlie no\'/ Eves in :>avB.nnah and comes back to McKlntosh 8cllmt.y for via its. HiiI is hard of hearing and t.J.ros easily, 1)llt. he seems t.o be quit" hright. and is ahle to Ret about by h!llmself very well. He and the other Negro's !in the cOllnt..y seem very prolld; there J.8 no Uncle Tom'ing towards vIIHt.es, and it doesn't seom as though there evor has b"en. llost of them livel .in small frame houses perched ethove UIII earth on co] Umns of bricks, The yards are ruther ..hare, t.hough some have gardens, 'mel some are fairly ,junky. The Burround:lng land is very flut and covered with oaks, Most of the; old peo"ll'" are truck farme;rs or fishermen. III Cha:r.l ie Spalding Thom~s: Sho' is. here.- Winn: 'lIell we doh't wantt,to keep you - holcl yo', i'l-8iH' too long. 'No",re tr,ving to ask your eladd1l about, abol1t uhy/hlm ho was a boy, and " soe if he cant remember some stories, some 6td stories, you know. Thomas: I see. Winn: This is for school children, this is an educllUonal thing. Thomas: I see. 'Ninn: They don't have to just be stories for chiihdren, they can be stories ',",' for grownups too. 'rhomas: I see. 'Ilinn: Thought maybe you could talk to him better than WEI cOllld, I don't know. Thomas: Yeah. Differont things','y8u ask him now, you know h" old but some things he can remember. 'IJinn: Like what - what can he rememhel1? Thomas: Jes - I don't knll\v - it's - jes like some 0' dem ole time thingstha, tha' s all I C'1n say. You might - he might can ~nswer some things and some thines - now when he go to talk, I don't even know what he be talkin' bont, that was so long. Yeah. ~inn: How old is he? Thomas: 'IDe olei man 'a,'hundredn' elebem years old. This July first he he a hl1ndred ,In elebem. Winn: Hundred and elOven, hl1h? Charlie: Be a hunnerd an thirteen - a hnnnerd an fifteen ... Thomas: A hundred 'n elebem Thol1\c'ls: Uh uh a hundred an elehem. IV I TholMs: No, a hundred elebem. See, I'm t"llin' ya now jos take it easy. Charlie: You cannot tell me I can tell youl Thomas: i\h fena you ain't no fifteen I ... (chHdren giggle) Charlie: I know. Thomas: Now look Charlie: You hot my age wrong, Tholllllls:Now das all I go by ..ha de,V wha dey das wha dey wha de.v tell me Charlie: Yeah dot is wrong. Thomas: Now you say, now you say a h'lOdred 'n th:irteen now I don't know hout dat. Chs.rlie: Yoah\ DuVernet: That's what Mr. Deverger tolel us, a hunelr..el nnel thirteen. Thomas: Hunelred an" thirtefln now he, he oleler 'an, he older 'an him. He is older than the old man never-gel'. An' uh, dey shonld Nnow, some 0' dem ".,,,.. should know sumpin concerni.n' dst, see? Now das far as I could remember. ?linn: Do you remember any stories he told you when you were a boy growli.ng liP, uh, any stories about superstitions, or ghosts, or an,V sbories about animals even, Thomas: Well now he have tole me some thing, now, hut iss so long, until it dOllle slip IlW remembrance, I be frank with you. Lotta thlng he have tole me, but see I ,iea lss .ies done slip my remembrance. (Chuckle) I cnn't it so long dat he tole me. ':'linn: Anel he says he Was neVer a 813vo himself so he @ust have been a fllee man, rlght'! i10rking o-lt on ,lohs himself? '/linn: Casket. v j Thomas: Yeah. Yeah he was, if he ain' had him ona slave, he, he have to been free. \'firm: Uh huh. Did he work for, for Charlie Jpaldin,,,, ever, or for any of the Spaldings out on Sapelo? Thomas,: Yeah das where he , das where he spring from, Sapelo. '!linn: That's where he was born, Sapelo? (Charlie and Thom'J.s mumble unintelligible explanations.) Thomas: M,V gl'anmother my great gr:mmother her @other, das where all dem come from ovuh dere. "finn: ':'Iell Kay what you think, you t',ink we've talked to him long enough and we ought to go on now and DuVernet: Uh, I guess so. Could you tell us one more time about th~ lady who came up out of the grave? Could you tell me that story once more? Charlie: Oh yes I I, thej' tell me t.hat. DuVernet: 7lhat, what did they tell you? Charlie: Say ole, heah ole missus come out DuVel'net: Uh huh. Charlie: It was very ole misaus an' went off in a tront (trance). DuVernet: Uh huh. Thomas: I heah 'im talk bout dat. DuVernet: Oh. Thomas: I sho heah 'im talk bout dat. Charlie: An', an' somebod.v dig t ern up ... DuVernet: Uh huh. Charlie: Fo' git de de de uh box. VI Charlie: An' she walk onto (nears his throat) DuVernet: "'hat did she do after she Call1l!ll Charlie: A- '1- '1- apter he op'n de box an' 'e come out. DuV ernet: Did she eo back homoY CharlJ.e: Gone bIJ.ck home DuYerm\t :Dd she stay there, I CharlJ.e: 'Nen' an' 'e knodked J.n de do' whey de,V are, say "Heah's ole mbsust" (He laughs and mlunbles, really enJoyine hJ.mself.) 'NJ.nn: You know any other storJ.es Uke that? CharlJ.e: Huh'? WJ.nn: JfOl1 know any other storJ.es lJ.ke that? (CharlJ.e lag.g'w some morei) Xinn: Funny storJ....s, ,you know any other funny storJ.es, you " member any ... CharUe: Some ( unJ.ntellJ.gJ.ble) hut that one 'i..,\try,to dJ.I" em up. DuVernet: Uh huh. CharlJ.e: She gone back to de house. DuVernet: Did she live there? ChavlJ.e: Yeah Kay: AfterjPhe came back? CharlJ.e: Yeah, sh' be- sh' been lJ.bin' 'n gone bock. "Ole missus come backt" (He l'llJf,hs agaJ.n.) (Efforts to elicit more stories or to get the name of story tellers are futile.) VII Frank O'Neill Intl'oduction Q"""I<.- Francis .8ttaR O'Neill, as I thInk he would prefer to he called, has heen one of my fl'i(mds for ahout a year and a half, dnring which time he has gradually shown himself to be quite an entertainel' at dinner parties, informal gatherings, etc. His entertainment comes ln the form of jokes and anecdotes which are told ln Ii most British accentl from 3. mos t Pdtlsh polnt of viev~ and with "a most balUisk eye," as Frank would say, toward the entiret,Y of the non-BriUsh world. F,'ank appeared more than ';lilling to let m" record his stories as folktales; he said of most of them, "l've ,iust heard them around, you know," and tded to explain the; r proh,1.hle origins and funetlons M h", told them. His one request was that ho he I\Howed to drink a bit hefore the recording session, dnce "Nohody can he expeeted to do sOIlY~th tng like th,~t sober." Although most of Frank's staples were definitely llna]J.sh, h~ told a few jokes localized in Charleston and athol' Amedcan places. IUs hackgl'ound explains the v,u'.ying locales of the stodes and the al'istocratlc point o.f view whJ.ch almost all of them exemplHy. He was horn in Atlanta, Georgia, ,Jllly 10, 1943. His father was a wealthy Charlestonian entrepreneur of JJr:lsh ancestry. Several generations of Frank's $'",?1fl" family, ~ sociall,Y and financially prominent, have Hved in Charleston, and VIII it is this city, rather than ~t1anta, with which Fr'ank identifies. His mother, still living, is Enelish and ','IRS in the states during the war when she met FrRnk's father. His fam1.1y movod from Atlanta to Ch:J.rleston when he was six months old and stayod there till Fr"nk was four. Then h1.s parents divorced and frank moved '/lith his mother t.o Windsor, Jongl:md. 'rhey st.ayed there for five ,years before movine toGeneva. Durinll' the next seven .years, Frank lived in G"nevR during t.he ho1idR.Ys and attended boarding school in J<;nlrland. He entered Oxfor(l at seventeen and graduated in 1965 with a degree in modern hist.ory' His special subjects were the American r.ivi1 War and the r.ongress of Vienna. After graduat.ing, he traveled in Greece for sil months and then mov(~d to Atlanta, home of hts step mother. He worked first on the Del",lh Nfl'll ErH, 11 weekly newspaper, and t.hen for Atlanta Ml1ga7.ine. I-Ie has recently f(lvel.1 up h1.s posHlon at the magazine to devote hIs time to fiction. FX'ank is a !J.el. ~iti.zen and his permDl.1ent addrMs .is 61+ Montgomery Ferry Rond in ~Uanta. The recording Vias done in Atlanta in Bill "!inn's apnrtment. Bill, who works at Atlanta HRc:azino, ,md Frank wer" good fr.it'l1dsLbefore either of thorn we)'e hilled by the rnaga7,ine. r,larg.3ret Hurst, Frank's cousin bv mClrriago (Frank's fnt.her nnrri"d Margar'()t's aunt), was also presont. ,H, one point, she ~,olcl a sLory ahout IJ.n 01e1 scrvdnt. at Lakemont in north Goor.lj.la, wh~~re li'rank's family' owns n large old house ovorlookinfj Lake Rabun. 1 Fl' ank 0' NeIll / Kay: l'irst tell the one,1 like ahollt th" lady at the dinner table, that smokes. Frank: Oh yeah. Well this is I suppose what you would call one of the English personality stories. Um, th isis th e Duko of J.'larlborough. The Duke of Marlborough) before the present one, was a rather big, bluff English sort of person and who had this suspicion of Amoricans and !:l.bhorence of people who smoke at the table, and he onee invited to dine with him an American lady whom he seated half w,,-y down the table, and between the game and cheeso she took out a cigarette and lit it and smoked it, ann he looked at hoI' with a sort of basilisk eye, and sho caught his glance and said, "Duke, I'm so sorry but fJmoking is just my greatosI, pleasure". And he looked at her even more with a basilisk eye and said, "Madame, my greatest pleasure is fucking, but I don't do it betwoon courses.";l. (Laughter and coughing) K'lY: That was the [Juke of Marlborough? Frank: 'rhrlt was the Duke of Marlborough. Kay: 'ilho is the Dukc of Marlborough? Frank: That I think was George ,Duke of Marlborough. Kay: Oh. And when ws..s he? Fr~'llk: Well, h~~ died about, Bight .years ago 0 Margaret: Fr,qnk, is It dOVin in the pr\gcs of hi,sto:r'y ah,},t thc king who did the fingcl'howl? Frank: Uh t.his in 'lXlother' Btory of l"le Bame sori;, r:think these Englinh stories Ilrf) supposed to show that the English aristocraey have el, either manners or spirit of life or something which no foreigner CUll eVer hope to catch, which is true, of course. But, lUll, this is supposodly a true story "hout 2 King Edward the Eighth, who Was supposed to be the greatest gentDnan of his time, and who was receiving at Buckingham Palace the paramount chief of the Ubangis, or something of that sort, who 'lias a worthy African ~ gentleman but one very ~verwed in the ways of ~estminster. And, in the middle of dinner, no, at the end of dinner of cotu'se, they put down finger bOVils for the fruit. And the chief of the Ubangis saw this thing which looked about the same size as a gourd holding water in front of him, and the best thing he could think of doing was to drink it. And so he dr'lnk it, and "verybody looked absolutely horrified. But, King Edward the Eighth, ':' Seventh, I think, the perfect gentleman, imm:l!diately saw this, and immediately picked up his finger bowl and drank it, and all of the rest of the table, of c01lrse, did the same, since nothing should ever be done which could possibly embarrass a guest. 3 (Mumbling) Bill arid Frank .Joke about root men. Margaret: What was the story about the Man who got, uh, who had the mistress and then he got to be King? Frank: Oh this is good old Ed- uh, Edward the Seventh again who was " " positively a mine of this sort of stuff. Ub, Edward the Seventh had one of his uh later mistresses a.s Prince of ':Iales, who was a French lad,Y of very good birth and family, who he stayed witl;l for several years, I think, and, just after he became King he was at the Paris race course, and, she saw him ".; and smiled and curtsied to him, and he ignored h",r. And he sent her a ring 3 and a note by his courier saying t.hat"as Prince of '~ales, it was my 'f. greatest pleasure to know you. As King of England I cannot."I sometimes think he was a bit of a bastard, actually. (Mumbling) Kav: Do you know any more abo"t him'! Frank: About him? Um, one, yeah. In those days they had very very complicated rules "of' court mourning, and they still do, I think, and um, he was told at a, a dinner part,V I think in Paris, that his third cousin the Archduchess of Slochvergenstein, or something,had died, and what were his instructions for mournings of the English court? And this was a lildy for whom he had very little interest. And, he though a moment and said, "Well, II I suppose t.he court might as well wear black uh cuff links, if they want to. There follows joking and discussbn about the "Buzzard Lope," buried treasure, other stories, jokes, and the definat.ion of "folk tale." Frank says that he's tired of telling a particulRr stor,V Kay asks for, but sa,Vs he will tell it later. Bill: You know any ghost stories? Ashort discussion of ghost stories follows. Flts.nk: W"ll yeah, you know, I half know some ghost stories. Um, there's a house my grandp!J.rents once had whJ.ch was supposed to have a uh white horse which would come galloping across the lawn if there was fog on certain days of the moon, or somet.hing of that sort, but, Jih, nothing's ever really panned Sout. Kay: Oh. Margaret: What's that place in St. Simon's that has a ghost? Kay: They tlold us about several but nobody knew the stories. Margaret: By the church? Kay: Yeah there was a- Bill: That's Fort Frederica Church, Christ Church. Kay: Yeah. Bill: They don't believe in ghost, tales. Kay: But ever,ybody carefully explained to us that it was the way your headlights hit the toinbstones, not real~ a ghost. Margaret: You can see !in, man, .if you go out there. Kay: Have you seen it? Margaret: Yeah. Do you have any Vicks? Kay: No. There fo:Hows a short discussion about the list of folktales. Frank: Are you intel'ested in stories ahout clere,ymen? Bill: Yeah, yeah. Kay: Ahout what? Frank: Clergymen. Kay: Yest Frank: IV",ll I was th:tnking, bec- urn becaus", one of the groater sort of, of mines of this sort of thing I know are the English fox hunting jokes, which there are whole scads and dozens and vast numbers Kay: Oh, gr()aH Tell those. 5 Frank: Fox hunting itself itself, of course is a rituaj(vorked out three times a week to celebrate a vanished feudalism and ~ake people thin~ that it's still there. Um Kay: What does the fox represent? The old (unintelligible) Frank: No the fox represents something which is being hunted hut the whole thing of the farmers who wear different clothes from the gentry, and so on and so on, you know, a celehrntion of something that was there a hund~ed years ago. Kay: I didn't even know they did that. Frank. Yeah. Uh, gentlemen wear top hats farmers weur bowler hats. But there are nU~berless fo~hunting stories, ailot of which I think started or first are re- recorded(He is talkIng while Hghting a cignrette) i::Lndninete.,nth. century Bunch cartoons, but since the cartoons are about a hundred years old and the jokes are still going, one imBgines thftt they've hecome folktales in ,your use of it. Kay: I would imagine. Frank: 'Nell, uh, one of them, the first one uh vlhich comes to mind is the ffi3.ster of the hlfit and a couple of his cronies gallooing away and the master of the hunt looks behing him and sees somehody who's taking the most appalling toss into the ditch -rapparently it's a hunt on Tuesday - and uh, he, he calls one of his friends, "Who',s that, fell off in the dHch there?" And he calls hack, II'S the parson. II ,.. "Oh vlllll. that's O.K. 'Ne won't need him till next Sunda,Y." (Laughter) 6 Frank: There're sorne other standard ones that!I, em, you have to understand the most unsporting way to fowlow a hunt is hy road, because this obviously takes all the risk away. And wn, there was a story ahout a man who snpnosedly had hunted' in Lestcrshire which is the graat prestige place to huni;., and was hunting in some less well-favored part of the world, and putting on ver,Y ver'y much airs in spite of the fact that actuall,Y most .,,, of the day he had been following the hunt by road. And he said to a girl, "And of course this is not the sort of horse 1've tried in Lestershire atall," And she replied !',Oh really, are the roads so Verj7 different in Lestershire?" '7 Urn, well II m doing m,Y best, Margaret. Kay: She's just dying. Frank: Oh I see. Margaret: I was moaning because throat and my nose were stopped up. Bill: Mr. O'Neill do you knoVl any stories about Brer Rabbit? Kay: Be quiet. ~'rank tell moro fox hlimting ones. Frank:Uh Brer Rabbit no seriously this uh, leads to something. One of," urn, the nearest I can got to a superstition folk tale is the - I don't suppose you'd find anyhody who actually believes it no'v hut I think you could have in living memory, in the ]i;ngJ.ish co'tntryside. The assumpfion that hares wore - could change their sex at will "nd also were very ofte/n people in 'i? disguise. Kay: Hares? Frank: Yeah hare. Uh know what a hare ls? Kay: Yes. 7 , Frank: Yeah its a sorta .lack rabbit. And where the idea that they can change I their sex from comes I don't know, but the wn fact that the~r<people in disguise is fairly obviously because as the hounds catch up with the hare and leap on it, a hare s creams in a way whil.ch is bloolicurdlingly human - and it sounds like a girl screaming. Anri so that, I imagine, is where that l'ltarted. And that was believed I think until probably the last fifty years. Kay: I bet H still is in the countryside Frank: You might find somebody who believed somewhere, yeah. Bill: You know any Pat and M1ke stories, or foolish Irishman stories, or dwnb Irishman stories. Frank: Yeah, wn, you know then.Pat c>.nd Mike were bricklayers vlOrkinl: on a house and um, Pat was working above Mike, and the~' were hauling bricks up, and Pat - was Pat on top? Yeah. 'Nas Pat on top? I think Pat's on top. AnYlvay, Pat's on top .. I Kay: I dont know Frank: And Pa,t dropped his bricks and yelled down "Look outt')'And so Mike stuck his head thro1lgh the window and was hH b.V all the brick- all the bricks as they came down ahd he said, "Wh" did you tell m" to look up - q to look out," which is supposed to be very funny. (Laughter) Margaret: I never even heard of Pat and Mike. Frank: Urn, you know of course that even three hundred years after the Battle of the Boyne between northern and southern Ireland, it's ttill the habit '* 1;1' every Protestant in Belfast to get screaming drunk on Saturday night come rolling and vomiting out of the puh shouting, "Fuck the Popel. Fuck the Popel" (Laughter) Frank: Um. Other Pat and Mike stories, urn Kay: That's the first Pat and Mike story I've ever heard. They must he famous. Frank: They are famous I think. Margaret is mumhling "Look out" in bhe background,\~binkitlgahouti.theLsdlor.y. Bill: Are there any legendary heroes in England on the line of John Henry or Frank: Well, I can't vo',ch for this myself although I've lived in that part of the country, but there are supposed to he regions in the southwest where lstilll /V King Arthur i~arded as somebody whb wHl some day save the whole world. Kay: Yeah. Frank: And, supposedly some Oxford Professor was down there and was sort of hiking aronnd the place where Arthur ViliS supposed to be buried and some more than usually stupid shepherd wandered up to him and said "Be careful "';, not to wake the old m'ln." BIlt if suspect that he ViaS referring to the shepherd's father or something, or Was drunk or something. Margaret and Kay briefly discuss Tullullah Falls 'lnd Nacbochee Valley. Frank: Other legendary heros.l. of course Robin Hood is perpetuated but I don't think it's perpetuated as a folk tale, .Iibhink it's more of a school sort of a thing. Kay: Yeah. Bill: Do you know any stories abont, moors or... 9 Frank: Blackamoors of' what? Bill: No but uh ... Kay: 3cottish moors. Bill: Scottish moors or, or Ilny legends or ghost stories surro\mding, uh, particular parts of the country in England? Frank: ';[011, yeah, urn, I guess. Bill: 'I{ell hoVl bout telling us one or tl'rO of them and Frank: Um."" Blay: B'rank ,you're doing great. You're beautiful. Frank: Par~s of the cO\illtry. "'ell, Stonehenge, of course, I don't honestly think the locals give a damn about Stonehenge, but there are a lots of kooks who go and celegrate sunrise there I think. lind run, that whose area is suppesed to have a sort of magical quality about it, but who thinks \itt hits I don't know, I think a lot of kooks and blooms thlnk, it has not, anrl the people ibiving there. Urn parts of the co'mtr,V. Kay: Tell more of the fox hunting ones. FranK: I'm really not ... ( tape i.s blurred) ... and most of them get awfully specia~zed Kay: That doosn't matter FranK: "/1ell " Kay: It doesn't matter i@ their specialized. FranK O.K. Prank: Yeah. Um."" Margar(~t: Don't you feel like the pressure's on with that tape plairing playing playlng. Kay: de have two and a half hours of tape. 10 Bill: We don't have that much Scotch. ~ Ka,Y: :.~re do Frank: There always stories going around in fox hunting sort of based on a - I don't know - perhaps an accurat,e observation of genetica I don't know tnt that you get stranee inheritances like the, uh, a certain hound wIll always trot by the huntsman's stirrpp and that all t,he heunds he sires will also always hlmt by the huntsman's stirrup, vlhich mllY be more Iln obs/vation of fact than folklore. Kay: Is that good, if he hunts by the hunts hv the hlmtsnllm's stirrup? I Frank: Not particularly good, no, iill fact, iryfact, it can he lousy. :,1"." '1 Urn, there are all the legends about, you know, things foxes do like jt is said thllt if a fox feels he is verminous - and where tll.is l always} story breaks down 18 the fact that every fox I've ever li:now ~n verminous.- but If a fox thinks he is "vernino'ls he will put hls, hls tale ln the water, and that the vermin TIl11 climh down his tale lnto the water Rnd drown themsellle13 ... Kay: Oh. Frank: It seems so obv40usly stupid that .tt's got to he a folk tale. (In the backgrolllid Margaret is talldng and !Jill is Lunlng his guitar) Frank: Um Kay: li'rank you aren't helping by sayinR th iniSs like that. Frank: Other fox stories ... well you get st~'ies, you know, but I've forgellten them all 'about foxes of superhwnan endurance and foxes who'va don" things which 'llere quite incredibly clever lik" 11 Kay: You can't remember any of those? Frank: Well T r'''tlly can'L ,you know, they all sort of fuse together. The Basic element of nIl these stories is thnt there vias a fox who ran seventy miles in a strnight line or, or did something wfuich no fox should be able to do. Um, there are, what olse, urn, fox hunting. You get a lot of utori'"s you know passed down in hlimts about legendary members of the hunt, and what one suspects happens is is for instance likeum, a famous one is Lord not Queensbury, um, Queensbur,Y? Maybe it WaS lLord Queensbury. Anylvay it doesnc( t much matter. But uh, Lord um, a: Lord Queensbury's era Vias a great fox hunter and who had a a horse Vlhose name I forget, Vlhose exploits took on the sort of thing you know of Trigger .",nd who was supposed to have lept a fort,y-fo\1r foot ditch at one point, which Kay: Do )'ou know any of the, of the accounts of what he di'h Frank: ':';ell one of them, he was supposed to have leapt, a forty-four foot ditch, which you know, .1S impassible ,- I would think - it may be possible, but II I think it's impossibLe, I'd hate to do it" Uh, and others which are really too re- if somotfuing is gust something which somebody in rather recent memory has said, but has become a widespread thing, is this 0.K7 Kay: That's fine. Yeah. That's fine. Frank: "'ell, for insta.nee there was Lord uh Haliflax, who Vla.S a great master of hounds, and who alVla,Ys summed up his phUosophy of fox h\illting by saytake care never DSbJofofl are all of' the Squi.re GsbftiU4M.1A .. stories. ing;"UIi big fences don't worry me, never Vlorr,Y me atail, I to go an,ywhere near them." Um, there '7 Kay: ',1ho's Suire 05bulsol1~ Dsb"bfon. 12 OsboJAvl\ Fr{;\l:Ik: Well Squire Oabals en was a country gentlllman who 3dved around 1840 - earliest days of railroads, perhaps, uh 1l\'l.ybe'lt little earlier. And of course all these stories dmrive from uh a book which somebody who signed himself Nebuchadnezzar wrote - no not Nehuchadnezzar. Nho was another one, name one of those ether kings. Kay: Who wascanother king like N"huchadnezzar Frank: 'Nas supposed to be a great huntsman ... Kay: A great hlmt.sman Frank: !Jm, I'll rememher in a moment. And, o.b",~.1<>" Suire Oee"lsQn'did exist, he was wrotten do- he was written down by this man, but his stories have become more widespread than the circulation of that book would account for I thfnk. And he "j you know was the sort of the supposed epitome of th- the maniac blusteY'ing English squire. And the stories about him are for instance once he was driving along in a dog traN which is a sort of carriage, of '-'>/ course, a light carra:tge, uh with a friend, and they were talking about carl'~ge accidents and his frmend said, "You know, I - thank God - Ilve O,I,,,,b!o<\ never been turned over in a dog cart."And OshtllsQn said, "vrhatl~ You've never heen turned over in a dog cart?"And right that instance got off the side of the road ann tumed the whole thing over. (Laughter) Fmnk: And then again, uh, what else did Osbaldon do? !Jm, at one point, I- I- I forget exactly why, oh, now, wait. ';'Ihat was the reason for this? !Jm, ,veah~ He had heard fl'om somebody at some l'emote time that the best way of curing hiccups VlIlS t.o set fire to your night shirt, uh which he indeed did and got I ';L. horribly burned. 13 Frank: Urn... oh you know things like that. And ... Kay: 'dell tell more. I like those. Frank: Um well he used to, you know drink extraordinary amounts, and urn, oh, he- very much the Tom Jones sort of thing, Slf.uire Winston sort of thing. The same tradition. Um, which brings us to Oxford stories,which are an interesting Kay: I didn't know ~here were Oxford stories. Frank: A lot of Oxford stories. Oxford stories are obvIously designed to show that a lot of rather callow ex-adolescents and a lot of reall.y uh rather drMry nh professors are the mos t sophisticated, dch, wild, witty, cool, lot of people in the whole world. And yon get in this, vlhich also has a , obviously a social som"thing, stories ahout the Oxford ser!(l'Ints, which are called scouts, you know. And urn Kay: ~alled what? Frank: Called sconts. Kay: Why are they called scouts? Frank: A scout is an undergraduate - I dont know. I don I t know why.ythey're called scouts. A scout is an"undergraduates' man servant, and each college has, you know, uh, twenty or thirty scouts, who look after perhaps seVen I:hllth.rn undergraduatel each. And its your scout's dob to mH.ke yon(hed, uh look after your rooms, polish yoursilvel", serve dinner parties in your rooms if you give a dinner part.v in your rooms, which few undergraduates ,do any more, uh, to wake you up in the morming, 11h to make sure you're there, urn, varions things like that. And for some reason it's a tremeooons presti.ge 14 to have the most Geeves type scout in the college, Some of them are genuinely, in thei r own right, rather characters, But they tnrn illto legends and everybody has - tries to have - the most legendary scout, And the perfect, 'soout is somebody who's utterly reserved, utte:'ly correct, unflappable, and completely devoted to his undergraduate and not to the college, which shows that you, of course, yourself :we a hell of a guy, And one of the mea t common stories of Oxford which one hears, and it always has happeded to the person or to the person's closest friend, that you can't believe because we have for everybody, is the famous story about the scout who came in to wake somebody ul? after a commemoration ball and said, "Good mornJne str, good morning madame, I suppose you'll be having 13 breakfast in bed," And this is what - this is the classie Oxford joke, ( Laughter) ~""o Frank~ ''liell, other Oxford .iokes try despl'lratiHy to prove that uh that professors have a sense of humor and are rather groat swinging people, (He mLUnbles something.) Ami urn Oxford Colleg<'ls have of course walls which are built WJ around a quadrangle aihd all colleges yO'l " . ,,,' are supposed to be back ,,' b.\' midnight, Fl'ank: By m1dnillht, Kay: Oh you're supposed to be back - yeah, Frank: lih back 1n college h" mIdnight, Also by long tradition every Oxford college has a "Iall, or part of a '/Iall, where it is comparatively easy and reasonably safe to clinm in after dark so that, know1ng the people the point is that are going to be late, no oey s ou d get too badly hurt,in climbIng in. Kay: Yeah, 15 Frank: So they "U have these entrance hedges. And, the current anthorities know about them obvIDously. And somebody was once uh climbing over the waU considerably souRed, and vias, as he Vias "bout to fall, was pUlled over the wall by somebody and led up benefactor left he pnt five to bed, laid on his bed, and as uh as thls ~ shillings into hin hand and said "Thank you, my man, thank ~'ou." And the next morning he got a note from his tutJor saying "Your tlltor in this college is not nsually tipped,and if so he is neVer (If tlpped less than a pound." (Langhter) Frank: Probably apocrM1'hal, It, could have happened. Um... Kay: I.iwas about to ask - you don't knoVi H any of them happened ... Frank: One never knows If any of them happened, one can never trace them dovm. ",. Um other Oxford stories Kay: More ice? Frank: Great. Um Kay: Are you drinking it on the rocks, Frank? FranK: Yeah. Uh wtl!l1 of course something Vlhich is deeply engrained tnto British upper class folll habit, law, or what you will, is that everybod~' ls an amateur, and nobody takes anything very seriously. And so Kay: You m"an everybody in the upper class? Fr<~nk: UH huh. Is an amatenr. And nobody takes anything ve'.y seriously. So,th"r" are all sorts of storias you knolV abont somebody stUdying their, 1llmdj:ing their snb.1ec~half an hour before their final exam and things of that sort, but they all run to a type. 16 Kay: Well tell some. Frank: 'NelL Margaret and Kay talk about inconsequential thIngs for a moment. Frank: Well, I'll ten you one from my own experience whIch is vil.l,id only ht<,"""'" I'm told it has since become Oxford five years, is still remember,od. He was a great friend of mine folklore. And this man, in the last M";,,,(; h"j<V\ was called Daniel Minu&nogan, and he KB:y : Caned 'Vihat 'I fil.; nNsh"i''-' Frank: Daniel I.linuehogan, which is a London banking family ... Flay: Yeah ... uh huh. Frank: Originally Gerlll!J.n. And um... He's a IIreat friend of mine. And run ... ','1,,11 to start off with, to tell you something about Daniel, over his three years at Oxford he lost forty thousaad pounds at chemin de faire and roUlette, which considering that they're even chance games meant that his uh tnrnover in gambling must have been something like a half million pounds easHy, if not more. I once Sa"1 him lose seven thousand pounds in my presence. But he was stUdying philosophy, politics, and economics, which is an Oxford, you know, package deaL Kay: ;'Thich is what? Frank: An Oxford package deal, which is a - a finals course. And his special subfiect in this - a spedal sub,ject is a microscopic subject, which you uh, read up in great detail. And his special subject - frankly I forget - hut it let's say his sped'd slI,b,.je.ct was economics for undeveloped countries, which it could well have heen. 71ell, I know for a fact that his last two years, which Vias when I knew him, he never opened a book - I dont think he owned " book. And um, ahout. a day Ilnd a hal f before the examinatIon he decided that 17 perhaps he had (Here the tape ran out so Frank resumed on the othor side.) (Conversation in tho background) Frank: ','Jel1 other - to uh talk about Oxford storie" ... Kay: Yeah. Tell the you were fixing to tell the one about your f'oomate, or your friend. ~1l? ;(1&1 s h"1 ~ ~ Farank: Oh Daniel Minushogan - yeah. "Jell um he was studying, as I said, pOilosophy, politics, and economics, and let's say his special SUbject was the development of undeveloped nations, Well, about a day and a half before the examination he started reading the books on his entire course. And about half an hour before he got to the examination he opened a book on the philosophy of the development of undeveloped countries and rleclded he I didn t much Uke the look of H and so hm picked at random another speda1 sub;jeet, and took that lnstead. And the int- the onl.v inte"esUnR thlng about this J.s that thls has become an Oxford 1egond', apparently, Em told. 'nei what this sort of story seJJves to bolster up or perpetuate 1')01 not sura, but I thlnk .it's the '1lhble am.:,teur idea. Kay: Sounds sort of sickish. Frank: YM it does sound sort of s ickhh - Oxford is a sick place. (Consirleralblc conversMion is carried on before Frank tells an,vthing else. rt st,arts with a question by Bill.) Bill: Mr. O'Neill, do you know any long ReO or onee Upt:m'>'8 time st.odes or old timey stories that people used to tell in the count.ry? Margaret: Brer Habb.it and the t.al'ba.hy. Frank: Uh, yeah. In the village where I grew up, wn, Margaret: He's making t.his one illp. 18 Frank: No [. m not. eit.her. It. ViaS close t.o a lR.rge expanse of common land, vacant. land, moor land, YOll know, where in about. 1890 or so 0ueen Vict.oria allegedly reviewed her tron)1s - t.he,V had a bip, movement of trollps, you know, and thc viUagers, t.he ver,Y old ones, stUl C\huckle oVllr the fact that. the whole arm;v got lost, and soldiers were found allover t.he place weeks later, and 80 on. ':'ell they used to tell that one. (mock rHiful1y) Best I can do. Bill: Is t.hat the story? Kay: (laugh ing) Yos. Frank: There~s a house in the village vlhore everybody who lives there is supposed to have a suicide or something awful happen t.o thom, and indeed in the last fifteen years this has worked out. B:very single family who has lived in that /.) house has hall something' "wful happen bo them. Kay: What hOllsl'll Frank: Uh willil it s called Th" It used t.o be an abhe,v. A sm"ll ahhey. Well not an ahbey, an offshoot of an ".hhey. I think they called it a cell. Um it's by a river. It has a bell which supposedly if the hell ever rings something' dreadful Is eotng to happen, torTIbe.whole Kay: It's never rung? Ft'ank: area. Har{':aret: But - there's a stor- there's a house right down my street bip)]. river that looks 11ke an old fort where the lady before this one - those people - was Jnllrderec1, anc1 h"fore that somebody waR murde"ed in ttl!\t house - :it. s torrible - it' S t,rtl<~. Frank: WelL Same sort of thinlS then. This h01\se if; called the Ford. 19 Margaret: This is a ]'(",1. story. Kay': The Fort or Lhe Rord~ Frank: The Ford. It's an old, rather gloomy red brieR house, big house. Ka,Y: ','Joll what h'lvO 80me of the people done? F:IJ<il.ihk: ~.~!Gll um LOl1gmoors 'nd it las I;, and h:i.s father committed suicide. Sefore that, the people \"ho had it, both of their children Were killed b,v th" Hau jlau in Kenya. roay: By what? The Mau Mau? Frank: By the Mau Hau ln Ken,Y'" lIh they had land in Kenya, "nd the childr'en were ()"el~ there vis:i.ti.ng thelr grandfather I think, ~ncl -t.he ~Iau Hau got them, 'n ,\,ou knO\'/ minced them up eeremoni"l 01' somethlng thus~,. 11m, I don't know "!hat'" happening to Lhe eurrcnL ! cople have il; but, somel;hing had, I prosume. (A short discussion of the Hope, T)i:',mond etl:me", thCll some t"lk afloll.t slnf,inf,. A request for more Oxford storles brings up Dr. Spooncr9 To'rank: W"ll ,you know of course all the famous stories about Dr. Spooner. lIIay: Dh lIh. Frank: 'Nho was Dean of New College. Is It dean? Is J.t, /loan New Col1<lge, New College have" 'dean? I'm not Sllr". Dean maybe , yeah. 'S called dlfferent thlngs ln dlfferent cOllntril:es. Anyway, he was, so to speak, Dean of New College. He fihour:lshed about, I don't know, probably 1860, 1880 or somethi.. . But Spooner of course eontr'lbuted a word to the EngHsh language, I ch is SpoonerisJno Kay: Oh. He's the one. Frank: He's th<'l one. And he used to get his words mlxed up, and for instance once to It yount:( gentleman who he tholtp,ht had mIsspent his t.lme he said 20 at the end of the t",rm "Sirl You have tasted you \vorml You have taste<1 your , 1/ worml I mean, you have wasted your term. (Laughter) Frank: And run, there's an ~ng- there's an Anglican h.ymn Bill: (laughing) 'fhat's pretty f{ood 0' Meill. Frank: There's an Anglican hymrl which starts, wn, "Conquering Kings, their titles make from the foes they captive ma,ke," And he, lIh read the' lum.,) sergeants in th(;'{New COllege Chapel, and said, "'Ne shall now sing hymn ~o hund!:\:l_d.....' 9 eighty-seven,) , number two hundr'ed 'n eighty-se~;nl Kinlmring Kongs 1L'heir Captives Take~W (Laughter) Fuank: And many others, vlhi,ch I forget. Then there was a Dean of Irh... no 's not Dean of Exeter, Rector of Exetor who took a great interest in his undergraduates!!3 health et cete1'a, and always inspected their, you knOlv, sort of um, hall. Rattels checks thefr< called, which means, a record of what .you ordered in t.he hall to eat,,(He is lighting a cigarette again.) .And one day during collections, 'IIhich is the end of term thing when each undergraduate is paraded past the tahle of the FeUows of t.he colloge, who comment on his term's uh progress, uh this rector was looking t.hrough' the list of batt<l1s, which is spelled b-a-t-t-II-1-s, andllum, fOllnd that somebody had an inordinate fondness f- for mutton, at which he exclaim/ld "Good God sirl ,'Ihat's this I see? Mut.t.on for breakfast., mntton for lunch, ,j) mutt.on for dlnner, Good God manl .you must. have gut.s of iron. (Silence) Frank: Um Margaret: Urn. Kay: Um. Frank: Shut up. 21 (There follows considerable irelevant babbling, 'during which Frank asserts that he is half southern.) Bill: Mr. O'Neill, do you know any stories about Marsar and Ole Slave John? Frank: lim do know the Margaret: I know a great one\ Frank: Charleston storv which is meant to be Uargarst: Can it be true? Kay: Yeah. ",rho is it about? Bill: O'Neill is fixing to tell one 'n she gets- can get another one. Ten it O'Ne1.ll. Frank: The great Charleston stoo-y I ch eV8ryboe!y hoo hB,' s about uh down thestor- of during the great Charleston hurricane and earthquake and Vlhat"ller else the,y had - uh -p):'obabl,y fire I s1>uld th1.nk bj' all likelyhooe!, at" I th1.nk about the turn of the century, though it may have been later, of the um Negro prell.cher - and I won't even uh uh tr,y to do the accent on tali'e - Kay: Gh do it. Do it. Frank: Exhorting... O.K... Exhorting hls fihock and saying "Lord God Lore! God the wi nd is doming dOVln and the honses is falling and the streets is burnin' up, and we need you heah, but don't send Jesus clluse thJ.s ain't I" It. no place fo' chHluns. ( Lau,<;hter) Margllret: Ain't no place for what? Frank: Ch1.l1uns. KIlY: Chillnns. Margaret: Oh. Margaret: I thinl< J.t vlould almost count as 1\ folktale about Dolphus when they 22 when they had the M,{ss at the Lakemont House. Frank: Oh yeahL,Do that. Kay: What? Frank: Or shall I do itl Margaret: Do .you know all the details? Frank: I think so. Margaret: There were five Frank: Do it" Margaret: five children in the Doonan family (Tape blurred) four men and a woman and none of them ever married and one was a Catholic priest. And every summer - this was years:,eefor" the roads were even paver! up in north Georgia - they used to have Mass at their house for the people who went up to the:aake, .you know, as a sort of a, \Un, still it was a resort then, but you know not nearly so mqny people. And my grand- what's? I don't know, bllt anyway there was an old colored nnn who used to work up there for 'em named Adolphus, 'n they called him Dolphus. And the first time they eVer took him up they had Sunday Mass and they were laying the benches out on the thing, anr! Father Doonan was sittin' up front and he went "Clang, clang, clang you know and hit the bells and Dolphus stuck his head Ollt 11 of the front kitchen door and said '''Yassuh1'' right in the middle of Mass. (She laughs.) That's a true story. Frank:UH huh. Um Margaret: But it a1.n't really folklore. Kay: How old are ... Frank: I don't know. It, could be folklore. Kay: If it's widespread it's folklore. Margaret: That's pretty widespread 23 Kay: If peopl" keep telling it, it's folklore. Margaret: It's known all through the McKintire clan, and there're a hundred of those to start with. 'S think h01l ffi'lny people the,y've told. Frank: Well, also Lakemont. You knoVi there're stories, and M!l1rgaret probably knows them better, ahout the hermit who's supposed to live under the waterfall and he was a sort of hereditary hermit hecause somebody in the same famn,\, 1V0uld alWAyS take the plJ> c" when the old one died, or was ~3-18 inc~ined to t8.ke his place, or something. And I think it was usually- (u,,;.\1(1I;1~Ue) - or so Diesie sa~'s. And this is apparently folklore up there, or meant to be, It may not. Kay: Thnt sOllnds like somebhing from ~he Golden: Bough. Bill: Mr, OtNilfull, tell us ahout the hirLh of your father, Frank: Uh that :Lsntt folklore, that's libelous. Bill: Tell us ahout the birt,h of ]'ou father, Mr. O'NtHll. After all, itt s traditional immaculate concept:Lon, I, .( . Frank: I suppose th:Ls is almost Charleston folklore, isn 1 t it.. The munb- the number of damn foOls who 1ve told it, (Laugh:Lng) and inveterat~ossip like you. Bill: I do think it's somewhat, late for Charleston to make a pl3.y on that particu1!\ r story, but (LauGhter) T suppose that , \-four) Margaret: Twe~ars later they begin to tell of the immaculate conception that occurred in Charleston, but not really in Charleston as a matter of fact's in Atlanta\ Frank: No th is is my fat,her, my father. My fut.her's birth. Margaret.: Oh. ~ell thet was sixty years , Kay: ~hat was hy immaculate conception'! 24 Frank: No it was not hy immaculate concmption it was something pretty wiard because, wn, it was by, apparently, instantaneous conception in the birth, because, u@, Bill: She had ice cream, that's what did it. Frank: Yeah, it was the ice cream. Um, his mother. And mind you, from th- I think a lot of the people there are mixed up a generation, because the dates et cetera which they tell of tbis make it sound more like my grandfather, hut Bill: That's what I thought Frank: It. may have bccen my father. I think all those people have skipped a generation.". Bill: I think that's Frank: and thEW go straight from my great grandfather to my father. BU1: I think so too. Fnank: So what my grandfather did could be very interesting. But um anyway my father or my grandfather was- his mother had absolutely no !i:dea that she was pregnant atall, and the e"ening before he was born, she wentuh 'twas a Saturday ,,,,ening - she strolled down the BatterJ' to get an ice cream fn)m an ice cream parlor, and she came back, and went to hed, and she woke up fedlling, ,you know, awful the next morning. Early on a Sunday there were no servants in the house that. And um, uh within an hour she had my father or grandfather as the case Way be .\nd wn, he 1'1 was not prem!lture, he WIlS a normal sbe, normal te11Jll baby apparent1,\,. And this has apparently become a sort of Charleston leeendl. Kay: That couldn't be true. M~rgaret: Whose been taking these. 25 Kay: Gould that b(') tru('), A1argaret? Margaret. Sure. Bill: Anythine could hap"en in Charleston. Margaret: Hey who do ,you take these Ka,y1 Kay: Yeah. In the fall. ( There is a conversation between Kay and Margaret in the backgrolmd about hayfever pills.) Bill: Frank, what about some of the stories dust about Charleston society? I'rank: Just about Charleston society. Well pry me a little bit. ( Bill mumbles sometld.ng.) Kay: ?lhat about old ladies at cockt,qU parties? Frank: Urn Frank:,lell this isn I t folklore, this is urn, there's the old saying yOIl know that uh Charlestonians ar- are like Chinese because they urn and there're three I've forgotten one of the things I Imow like the Chinese they eat, a lot of rice, uh like the Chinese they- evel'ything stays as it was, and like the Chinese the,Y worship th<'lir ancestors. Urn you have to rem"mber that most Charleston stories I think are absolute hooey, and are based to produce a past which I sometimes suspect nElver really existed. Urn Kay: Any legends1 (Margaret continues to tiUk about the pills.) Bill: I think-,:I:'t:hink your gr:>at grandfat.her was Madame Fougeau. Frank: Thank you, William. I'ay: Frank tell us the ones on Charleston. I doesn't matter ii' ... 'Jill: You got enough now don't you? Ka,Y: Uh, w",ll, yeah. Might as well get, a few more. (Everybody talks at once.) 26 (Eventually Frank says that he doesn't know any CharllJston stories,) BiU: You know any stories about headHss horsemen~ Frank: \'Ie11 the c1as cdc one. Bmll: ~Vhat classic one? Frank: '/Ie11 there'.s supposed to be an abbey somewhere in England, I don't even know which H. waa, where a soldier hact a c- a cannon hall taken off oh I know '1 much better on about cannon band flack to the EnF,'lish celebrity, title eelebrit,V, stories. There is the stor)' VJhich is supposectly'tvue though I can't exaotly, belie,,,, it about Lord Anglesy at the Battle of the Nilo, who was riding on his horse Rnd Illn... wan unfortunately hib b,r a cannonhall hy the sort of the sicte of the honse, which took off most of his uh leg. And a fellovi officer wavi this happen turned to llnglo saying "Good God Anglos\ You've lost your leg. And Anglosy reportodly lOOKed nOVin and O)v saiCl "Good God 8ir~ So I haveL II (Laughter) Frank: Uh ... There's another story VJl\ibh people still chortle at in the AIm"" Britisb army of tbe English officer in the Crimean War at the 'l'a"',i", I think anct ,VO'l. have to understand thFlt at the end of its trajectory a cannon ball in reporteclly moving vcr,V slowly, and that if fired at th e right trajectory a cannon ball will even 1anct on t.he ground 3.nd roll, or or hop (He bounces bis hand across the floor,) very - fairly fast approxsome ctistance. ,~nd that an Eng1isb officer who hact been brought. up on t.he playing rielcts of Eaton with spots and all Umt suddenly saw ouu of, out. of t.he corner of his eye this thing burtling towards him across t.he ground and by absolute reflex (Lau,,:hing) he took a kick', .at it, thinrdng it was 11 a foothall, and of course lost. hls leg. Um Rla,V: Who was this brilLiant feJ,low'! 27 Bill: Frankl smother. (Lang-hller. ) Frank: I don't lmow the name. I (lon't know i.f the name is even recorded. Rut if you think of uh most of these English stor; es, what they prove is that the amateur, the clueless id:hot, is all a hsolutel,\, splend:id fellow after alL ( Laughter) Margaret: The clueless :idiot. (There follows eonversati'Jll "hleh leads nowhere ahout witch stories and rags to riches stories.) Bill: You knovi any stor:ies about Church'ill? Kay: Yeah. Frank: Yeah. Urn, there was a, a very sallow - not sallow- pale, cadaverous, miserable, unharp,\" captain t"pe socialist Minister of l\gricuHure I think, urn who was cnlled ,Jeremy? I'm not ,qure. Jeremy perhaps. Palings, anyway, was his la.st name, and Pr:lme l':lnister, he was once in'very heated dehate when Churchill was not I..perhapsJ still backbencr~he government, ',~ ""."" I'm not sure, um, a violent debate bel,IHen nh Ghureh:i.1l ,md Falings, Pa1:lngs sa,;ld in fur,Y, "Churchill, ,you're a. dirty dog-til !,1l,1 um, Chull1ch:lll 8tn:i.1cd hea o o.tificall,Y 1nd said ~,~Y.:es, and you know whAt (iirt~r dOf~S do to palings. H Frank: Urn The"," was another Gne when - at some sort of House of Commons pClrty wh,m Churchill was bein;; rathor obnoxious as usulll and Barbara Castle ,who 'was still ilro,md, 1;nd who a soc:lalist. and very int.ense1y fomale member of Parl:lwnent., camo up to Churohil1, '/lho was, by all acoount.s, being very obst.reperous, and said urn, "Churchill, you're disgustingly drulllct" And ChurchHl, blidng 's I said, rather obsteperous said, "Bal'bara, Barbilra, J'ou're disf;ust:i.nl'l'ly ugly." I\nd uh, he came betcl< to her abont h"lf an hour later ann said, "But in the mornin{;, I'll be sober." (Laughter. ) Bill: That's one of my favorite s Lodes. Margaret: Frank how bout - is slds a folk- folkt;a1" Hbont "I do noi. Uk" ye';' 1 do not 0011'0 to se" ~IOU Rgain lind .l Ioave no J' r:1.11k: Well this is another RO!'t of eelebrity story, Lord urn 6arlisle - no, not LO!'d Car'lisle Ca!'lisle Frank: Carl:l.sle th" Vlr:l.ter, ,yoah. lifax'tl.~:aret.: The writer, ,yeah. Frank: Yeah, Carl:l.sle tho writer, vlho's an extr<3rnely you knoVi nh uh truculent unpleasant sen of a bHch. And he was lmOl'ffl fo!' his rndeness to evoryhody. @nd ene day s0ll1ohorlJ1 with somo literary aspiration wont to call on him, and flattarorl himself throughout tho evoning that he was really making " Carlisle 1ik" him. ,\nd th" ov""ing encl"d '\nd, and Carlisle showed him to the dear, and his visitor said "Good nif,ht," and Carlisle looked at him and said "I dinnfi like ye, I dinnot enjoy ye compan,V, and I dim\[). l'1ish .ye to aome again. It ( A discussion follows abont more dPinl", and tlw story which Frank has be"m promising to tell an n:l.ght, hut Bin divor'ts him to another' stor,Y.) I 'lUI: Frank, whos the d.ehost person in J"ngland'? u Fr'anl<: U!n, pr'obHbly til" Duke of ',Yestminstol', Bill: DI y'ou know Rny storles about him'! frank: No, bll.t I know Rn absolutely boantiful 8t01')1 about, uh, oh wbat' s ... Margaret: Probably 'Nho I s the d.chnst Frank: Ub Duke of '!lestminster. 29 Margaret: Oh. Frank: A very ver,Y rich Jew '1lho uh who' G vel'," famous actually it's a well Imown name, anyway, lIh not Hothschild hut a much more sort of 3. parvenne pype. I'll think of the name in due... 'It. any rate, thJ s man was dinihg in the S- Savoy when lIm, 11 little Jew boy came up to him, and let's - to tag this man, what's a good JewiAh nllme, lim Bill: T';instein. Frank: rTell, fh'st name. lim Margar'et: 1\aron. Fr8.nk: !\aron. O.K .~nd this little Jewish boy cnlled Izzie comes up to the millionaire ':.rho, VIO shall SA.y, is called Aaron, and says 11 You lenoi'l Aaron, uh, J'ou don't lmwi me hut I'm 1- Izzie Bcrnstein and I' Vl~ got my first big dca1 today vou 1<110'.", 'jutl U", industry, it's my fhst hig deal, y011 know all the diffee'ence it wOlld make if J'Oll said you lmewnne, it might swing Lhe deal cause ,you'r0 fa.mous and I'm ,iu"t uh nol:.hing yet." 'Ind so ~aron said, 11"'",11 e,Jyi.,ht. I knO'J what your first deal is, it"" important. O.K. I'll give you a hreak. You jus', as you leave, as I leave this vestaurant, I'll coml~ to your table and pretend I know you." $00, lzzie's friends IlY'rtved, and the great million,,:i.r(1's friends ilvrived. And Auron's frienrls and Aaron finished lunch fir'st Ilnd came over to to lltt1e Izz:i.e who VIas sitting with these rather shady, small-time people, I s first big deal, and Aaron clappod Izzie on the hack and SAid um, "':'[el1 Izzie, how's it [i0in!!? It's a lone time since l'v" seen ybu lzzie boy." ,-'I' And IZ7.ie sald, "Fuek off', Aaron, can't ,vou see II m bllsy?" )0 Margaret: That can't be true, RUl: Oooh, Lord, ThaL' s " bea,uty, (It is decided to Viait for the nexL tnpe Lo record whaL Margaret calls Lhe "fucking lane sLor.y,") Bill: Do .you know any ':Iorld 'Nlll' II sLori"s, Frank? Rrank: ::'[1311 again you know sort. of t.he e1m,sic.,Engllsh amateur stor,ies, like Lhe uh, English amat.eur exquisite stories like the young tank commander in the RaUle of Lhe Rulp,e who VlI1S senL in and um ,., (unintelligible) ,., this sorL of inferno of fire, and he came wibh in- in with his three tanks more or less undamaged buL looking somewhat beat up, And he opened the hatch and said to the regimental uh commander, "My boautifu1 tahk~ They abeolutel.v wrecked the paint \'Iork on my tank~" ',',hieh is a formal pntt.ern of British army stories, Margaret: If I moan sometiJnes Frank, it's not. because of the st.ories, I'm havdJlg a pain. Rill: If I moan, it's becauae of t.he stories, Fr'ank: Nen I'm just. repeaLing these, I'm not saying I like them. (It is decided to change t.ap<'>8 so that Frank can tell his famous story.) M'll'gar"t: Go ahead ,md tell Lhe one about Lhe fuckin' ,. ,( Unintelligible)." Frank. Frank: Alright shan I cia thclt? Kay: Yes, Frank: Is that II folk - lisLen - I really don'L know ... ~ Kay: It's a good joke, It. doesn't if H's - H's folk if it's a joke. Margare~: It's a sLory, Kay: Yeah, 31 Frank: Well, the onl,Y reason I donI t Imo~1 if' it's a folk story is because I don't kno\'l where I got, it. I honestly don't knovi where I got it, and 1've never heard it !J,nywhere else so i- it's not a story in general pal'l!Jrlce. But. ...O.K. (He mumbles someth:lng.) Uh, ,you have to imaeine II um nOl'th countl'y shop gi)'l recounting hel' last evenings expe)'iendes as follovlS. "Eh, well, it was a fu'ing lovel,V evening and t,he S~l was fu'illg ovel' the fu'ing street down by the fu'ine dock it was, down o'er the fu'ing water, Go' it wa' fU'ing lovely you know. And the tl'ees was blooming you know and the spl'mng and all, and the birds was singing all O'iel' the fu'ing dock, and the Slill was setting 0' el' the f'"'ing watol', an' uh, uh I went for my walk uh with my bO,yfdend and we walked into this fu'ing field, and the trees was all bloomin l and the bil'ds was singing, and he said to me 111ell let's go OV"l' "'(' this fu' ing style,' so I went ovel' this fu' ling style, we walked down this fu'ing gl'"en lane. Go' it was beautiful you know, and the dew Vias on the fuling grass an' all, so we walked down this fu'ing lane, ,you know, an' he said 'Sit down on the fu'ing grass.'So we sat down you know, an' we looked at the fu'ln( evening, an' it was all so fu'ing l'omatltic an'all, thel'e was bil'ds singing in the fn'ing trees an' all that, so he said 'Lie rlown on the fu'ing gl'ass.' So I lied down." "Ami what happened then?" (Very precisely)" Intim'lc,Y took place." Play t hat over, what? Ka,Y: O.K. I~ot"s All notes refer to SU.th Thornpson's Motlf-Indell for Folk l:i.teratur". In a f"w cases, I was able to find what T think is th" exact rnotif to fit the part:i.cular story (Frank O'Hei.1I's stori"s general.l.y had only one rnotif). In rnost cases I found a sirnilar or parallel rnotif, or at least a general one which would include the particular rnotif which I was unable to find. In each caSf' J have lIsted the clos"st rnoti.f I found and the general rnotif whIch includes It. 1. E32.0. Dead reI atl.ve' s hiendl y return. E32.2.. Dead wHe's fdendly r"turn. SllO. Murders. Sl2.3.1. Burial alive of drugg"d person. ;l~~.- Repa1'tee concerning -drl1nkenes"'-'7 2.. J1560. Practicpl retorts: hosts and guests. Jl32J.. The unrepentent drunkard. Jl563. Tr"atrnent of dHHcult guests. 3. Hl~)50. Tests of character. Hl564. T"st of hospitaJ.:ity. 4. C:J60. Tabu: Things not to be dono by certain class. C563. Tabus of kings. 2 5. B800, Miscellaneous animal motifs. 13[\02. Horses in tales and legends. 6. X410. Jokes on parson!;. X434. The parson put our of countC)l1f1nce. X443. Parson's poor horsemanship. '7. L,460. Pride brought low - m:Lscellan,,,,us. L46L stag scorns his logs but IS proud of his horns. Caught by his horns in trees. 13. 13'750. Fanciful habits of animals. 13754.1.2. Hare changes sex periodically. D3l0. Transformation: W:tJ.d beast (mammal) to person. D323. Transformation of hare (rabbit) to person. 9. J2460. Litoral obedienco. J2465. Disastrous followin') of instructions. 10. M360. other prophes:i.es. M363.2. Prophocy: cOOlin!) of the Messiah. ll. F980, Extraordinary occu:eencos concerning animals. FOBO. Ll. Horse 's b~emendous leap. 3 l2. J2l00. Remedies worse than the disease. J2l02.6. Clothes burned to r:ld them of insect,;. l3. P360. Master and servant. P36'7. The cl ever servant. l4. X300. Humor deali.ng with professions. X3'70. Jokes on scholars. 15. Dl130. Magic buildings and parts of buildings. Dll33. l\1ag:i.c house. M4'70. Curses on objects or anl.roals. 16. J2210. Logical absurdity based upon certain false assumptions. J22l2. Effects of age and size absurdly appUed. J2215. Absurd reasoning about God. 1'7. J1820. Inapprop:d ate actlon hom misunderstanding. ,JJ.823. Misunderstanding of church customs or ceremonies causes :inapprop:d.atH action. .lB. F530. Exceptionally large or small men. F531.6.2.2.3. Giant's home beneath watJ1erfall in lak". 19. T54B. Birth obtained through maglc o:r prayer. T54B.3. ,'"jagic elix:Lr to procure a child. 2.0 .12.02.0. Inability to fInd own members, etc .12.021. Numskull s cannot find thei.:r own 1eg8. 21. ,Jl750. One th:Lng mistaken for another. JJl772.2. Dog mistakes mussel for an eg9. Cuts his mouth. 2.2. .112.50. Cl ev(;r verbal retorts - general. 2,3. .1132.0. Hepart"e concernin') drunkem)ss .1132.1. The unrepentent drunkard. 2.4. L160. Success of the unprom:Lsin') hero. Ll75. Lowly successful hero lnvites kin') and humbles hIm. .,', EELEASE 1, G'o0rgia Folltlore Archives c/o Prof. John Burrison ~"f;~tment of English 33 Gilmer St., S.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30303 By letting us collect your traditions--stories, songs, music, sayings, riddles, or beliefs of esrlier days--you have made s valuable contribution to preserving and understsnding Southern history, and especially the history and way of life of your community. Because you have given unselfishly of your time to do this, the Georgia Folklore Archives, whose representatives are dedicated to preserving these traditiona, wants to protect your rights to this material by guaranteeing that it will not be used for unscrupulous commercial profits. By signing this sheet, you are giving us permission to use this material for educational purposes so that people who are interested can understand how life was in the old-timey days. Your material will probably not be printed or issued on a record, but if it is, snd you don't want your name to be used, say so-owe respect your right to privacy. Thank you for the time you have an important part of American life. that you want to send along to us so given to help us record a heritage that w If you remember any more old-timey things that it will always be preserved, write to: Signed \ (/e'/ Address \ \\ For Ga. Flo Archives: _
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Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions.
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