Judy Blair’s interview with Nellie Telford

The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. Note: Nellie Telford uses racist language to describe an African American girl at 02:40 and physical harm committed to an enslaved person at 04:39. This recording begins with Nellie Telford recalling a riddle about a man named Obadiah. Then she tells the legend of Nacoochee and Sautee, two American Indians who sacrificed themselves for love. Next at 02:40, she describes an African American woman with a wooden leg who worked as a maid in her home growing up. She then sings Johnny Got a Letter. At 04:39 Nellie recalls hearing about a house haunted by an enslaved person who was beaten to death. Then she tells a joke about Charles J. Jenkins, Governor of Georgia between 1865 and 1868. Lastly at 09:03 she recalls a folktale about seeing white horses. Nell Nellie Okenimer Telford (1886-1974) was born in Cleveland, Georgia. She completed two years of college, married James Jim Telford (1890-1967) in 1910, and had five children, including George (1920-2013), Gordon (1927- ), and Bettie (1932- ). They lived in Nellies childhood home. AHC Oral History Cataloging Worksheet File Information Catalogue number rv\1::{) {()()~<., II, d'd, . I Source Field* (ContentDM) Release form :~~rNo . Transcript Yes or No scanned: From Yes or No Default text: Contributed by an OR: Donated by individuai: individual through <your org, name> Georgia Folklore Coiledion through <your org, name> Object Information Enter 'Informal'Ion about the pnhvsl'caI obJ'leCt here: Title \-Ai"> .\ i \ .\ ,.\-f) \ (interviewee 1(" 'N L name and date of interview) Description HI':., ,y,II' I,\~r)( r\' '0,). \1('(.'1 I lnl () (bio on r ., interviewee) , .", . r . Creator '(Enter either an individual's, name or an organization) Collection Name (within the organization) BurrisonFolklore Class Georgia Folklore Archives Creation Date Exact Date (yyyy-mm-dd) (use only one) f-:-;-----------t----------------j Year (if only the year is known) Circa (4 digit year) Object Type Media Format (VHS, reel to reel, etc Recording extent Derivatives Recording clip Time code for clip (h:m:s) Year Span Image_ Text Text and Image _ Video and sound Sound onlyj9 Reel-reel Hours: Minutes: 10: t> a- Access copy: Yes or No Yes or No Beginning:O; <2:',.;J. From To Access copy format: Clip extent: ' q.. '0,0 Notes (interview summary) H,', . \d C. ,i 5'v1o/'().> 6FL" ~ \Ji&,(,;.;(\~,r.,) I!'\)"I\ ", \\" ..). ,,:J Recording issues (background noise, echo, , static, etc.) .. Subject Information Enrer .Infortm"a Ion a-bout the content 0 f the Ob)l'eCt here: SUbject Date Exact Date (yyyy-mm-dd) (use only one) Year (if only the year is known) Circa (4 digit year) Year Span From To SUbject Who Last Name First Name MI 'Telt-C), t) ,); \-\ \' \ ( ." ~. Subject Country State County Town Local Name Location \ " C,/) IiJhl~u. df",,,,(,, J ), ,-~;~ SUbject What AHC Cataloger will complete this for you. ..- . (LOC subject headinos onlv) Keywords Burrison, John Personal names See sUbject who for additional names . '". ~ ' '. : i . 3 . Corporate names Geographic locations Topics . , ,h, \1"':', , (S("\'c tC ~,,\r-( n" 1,\"C.:'j Georgia State College AN ANALYSIS OF UNCLE REMUS by Judy Blair for John Burrison (~ , May 26, 1969 Perhaps the greatest influence on Joel Chandler Harris' life as a folklorist appeared quite by chance. Having been born into a poor family, he was reared only as circumstances afforded. He was twelve years old and attending school at Eatonton, Georgia when the event happened. At this time he became employed by Mr. Turner of the "Turnwold Plantation," in Putnam County, Georgia. On this plantation he was exposed to the way of life of the Negro and came to be very good friends of some, especially one called Mink, and was able to sit around the fireside with them and tell old stories. Accordingly, Harris became acquainted with their customs, their feelings, their good will, and particularly their dialect. It was during his four years' stay on Turnwold Plantation that impressions were made which were later to appear in his Uncle Remus stories. His empathy with the Negroes on the plantation, his ability to put humor into their lives, and his interest in writing were all grouped together to eventually create one of the best collections of Negro folklore available. In an attempt to analyze these volumes, it becomes necessary to determine how Harris' stories were collected, the main subjects of the stories, whether or not the version presented is authentic, whether or not the dialect is complete and correct, and whether or not these collections are truly representative of the Negro people of the Old South. Harris insists that his main aim is to preserve the stories in this "original simplicity."l A portion of his introduction to the tales is further clarification of the purpose: lStella Brewer Brookes, Joel Chandler Harris, Folklorist, (University of Georgia Press, 1950), p. 28. With respect to the Folk-Lore (sic) series, my purpose has been to preserve the legends themselves in their original simplicity, and to wed them permanently to the quaint dialect--if, indeed, it can be called a dialect--through the medium of which they have become a part of the domestic history of every Southern family; and I have endeavored to give the whole a genuine flavor of the old plantation. 2 2 However, in this introduction, very little is said of his method of collecting-- a very important determinant of true folklore. Apparently, there were only two main sources for Harris' collections-- himself and his children. There is no question that Harris had the personality' to acquaint himself almost immediately with the black race and at the same time gain their confidence and ease in storytelling. Perhaps the strongest traits that he possessed were sympathy and humor. A typical example of his raJ~rt with the Negroes A can be cited. One summer in 1882 he was at a railroad station in Norcross, Georgia, waiting to take a train to Atlanta. A number of Negroes were also waiting at the station. They had all gathered in a group simply to wait on the train, and all seemed to be in good humor and began cracking jokes at each other. Harris was sitting next to one of the talkers and saw that the situation was good for a storytelling session. He then told the "Tar Baby" story as a feeler and soon all the Negroes had begun to listen. One story led to another to see who could tell the most and best tales. This session lasted for almost two hours and thus Nights with Uncle Remus was in the making. 3 Harris' other source, his children, was handled more in the form of a game. He would give his children a word or a phrase that needed verification 2I bid., p. 29. 3I bid., p. 33. 3 and send them on their way to collect the rest of the story. Stella Brewer Brookes speaks of this process as being a very worthwhile one, but there is not much evidence in her book to give it real support. It is evident that second-hand information, especially from children, would not be very valid; unless, of course, the process is more involved than Brookes describes. In the series of Uncle Remus books there are three elements which deserve consideration. These are patterns, character, and chronological order of the volumes. 4 The pattern simply consists of a storytelling session night after night by an old Negro man to a little boy. The main character of the whole series is, of course, Uncle Remus. However, additional characters appear in Nights with Uncle Remus--Tildy, Daddy Jack, and Aunt Tempy. These characters share only a few stories; therefore, Uncle Remus remains the outstanding figure. It is interesting to note that there are two little boys who appear in the series. The first one is the child of Miss Sally (a background figure), and he appears inSdngs and Sayings, Nights, and Friends. The second little boy, who appears in the subsequent book, is the son of the first little boy. The chronological order of volumes entails more than just a simple listing. Stella Brookes has broken these volumes down as to length and kinds of stories. The first Uncle Remus book, published in 1880, contains thirty-four legends of the old plantation. There are four pages of plantation proverbs, a story of the war, nine songs, and twenty-one sayings. The thirty-four legends of this book comprise 162 of the 273 pages. The average length of the stories is three pages, and the stories are somewhat fragmentary. Nights with Uncle Remus: Myths and Legends the Old Plantation contains 71 stories similar in length to the first book. As stated above, it is this 4Ibid., p. 45. 4 second book in which African Jack, Aunt Tempy and Tildy appear. Obviously, Harris had tapped other sources, and each of these three characters fits the / plan sketched for h;~. Aunt Tempy was to act as a foil to Uncle Remus and African Jack, and she told the witch stories. Tildy, the house girl, was to be a foil for all three and was capable of believing anything that human lips could tell. African Jack was to tell stories in a coast dialect. Consequently, of the seventy legends, fifty-three are told by Uncle Remus in the middle Georgia dialect of the antebellum cotton plantation Negroes; nine by African Jack in the Gullah dialect; five witch tales by Aunt Tempy and three ghost tales by Tildy.S Nights withUncle Remus was an improvement over his first book because with African Jack included, Harris was able to give two variants of the same legend--Uncle Remus telling the Virginia version and African Jack the African version. This added a broader scope to the stories. In writing the stories forNights with Uncle Remus, Harris was stretching his popularity a bit with some scientific folklorists who had commended the legends in his first volume for their ethnological and scientific values. In this second volume, he was still preserving the old way of life in the stories, but he was also making a contribution to the knowledge of folklore. Daddy Jake the Runaway and Short Stories Told After Dark was the third book published. The first eight-two pages narrates the episode of Daddy Jake who runs away from the Gaston Plantation and is pursued by Mr. Gaston's children because they love him so much. In this volume a new character, "Crazy Sue," tells one animal story and does not appear in any other book. Spaul M. Cousins, Joel Chandler Harris (Louisiana State University Press, 1968), p. 127. 5 The next book was Uncle Remus and His Friends published in 1892 in which Harris announces his retirement from storytelling, but in 1903 Harris explains Uncle Remus' reappearance in his fifth book, Told Ez Uncle Remus. In this fifth volume a striking difference appears between this and his other four books. The length of each story ranges from 10 to 25 pages with 16 stories making up the 276 pages. There is also a flagging of interest in some of the stories which Harris apparently notices judging from some of his remarks. Harris' next book contains twenty-seven ballads, plantation and revival songs and was called Tar-Baby and Other Rhymes ~ Uncle Remus. Uncle Remus and Brer Rabbit was published in 1906. It contains eleven stories, five in poetry, but seems to have lost much of the refreshing qualities of the first books. An extremely popular edition was published in 19l0-~Uncle Remus and the Little Boy intended evidently for juveniles. The next book, Uncle Remus Returns, was published after Harris' death and contains only six stories and other selections. The latest Uncle Remus book is Tales of Uncle Remus published in 1948. The ten Uncle Remus books vary in some aspects but there is always the same consistency in the old Negro storyteller and the little boy listener. Similarly, there is a consistency in the subjects (mainly animal) of Harris' stories. This seems to be one category in which Harris falls short in really expressing Negro folklore. "Never has the trickster been better exemplified than in the Brer Rabbit of Harris."6 Adolf Gerber, who traced fifty of Uncle Remus'tales to direct 6Brookes, p, 63. 6 sources in the Old World remarks, "The resemblances among the stories mentioned are so close that Harris might be accused of having manufactured his on the African patterns, were he not supposed to be a reliable and honest man."? The hare is one of the cunning animals which Gerber traced back to Africa. Certainly Brer Rabbit and the other "creeturs" make up volumes of Harris' animal fictions. Another subject category of the Uncle Remus tales is myth. There are twenty-four myths in the ten Uncle Remus books. One concerns man, four concern natural phenomena, five are about birds and fowls and eleven concern animals. The supernatural element occurs in fifteen of Harris' stories and feature Daddy Jack. Three of the stories deal with conjury, and Daddy Jack has the reputation of being a conjurer. There are only two ghost stories in the entire series, and only one devil tale. Another subject category which does not get the treatment it deserves in Harris' folklore is Negro proverbs. Only four pages in the entire collection are devoted to proverbs even though Harris understood so well the Negro's philosophy and presented other phases of Negro lore beautifully. From this breakdown, it appears that most of Harris' tales are concerned with animals and only a few appear in other subjects, even though the subject category of Negro folklore is broad. Though seldom printed, "the spate of stories involving John and his Old Marster provides the most engaging theme in American Negro lore. In all his volumes of animal fictions, Joel Chandler Harris includes only one example, and apparently never understood the cycle to which it belonged. Yet trickster John directly expressed and ?Adolf Gerber, "Uncle Remus Traced to the Old World," JAFL (JanuaryMarch, 1893), p. 249. 7 illuminates the plantation Negro character. The narratives about Old Marster reflect the physical circumstances of slavery life, and mirror the mixed attitudes held by the bondsman toward the p1anter."8 The final aspect of Harris' folklore to be evaluated is his dialect. Joel Chandler Harris has certainly been praised by many as being among the greatest writers of dialect in the world. He was so successful with his writing that people in many sections of the country throught that he was Negro. The language spoken by Uncle Remus represents Middle Georgia, but critics have pointed out that some of the words are also found in the dialect of Virginia. Harris varied his writing techniques gradually until he found the sounds he wanted. For instance, the first story in Uncle Remus: His Songs and His Sayings differs from his original version since it contains several alterations made for the sake of historical accuracy in setting, but also in dialect. He changed the title from "The Story of Mr. Rabbit and Mr. Fox" to "Uncle Remus Initiates the Little Boy"; the age of the little boy from six to seven years; the place where Uncle Remus told stories from the piazza of the boy's home to the cabin of the old man; and even changed the time from yesterday to one evening. Among dialect changes were the following: Mr. to Brer; an' to en'; arter to atter; was to wuz; when to wren; hear to yer; wrapped to wrop; that to dat; mustash to mustarsch. 9 He was searching for the exact language he had heard the Negroes use so often. The problem arises, consequently, of how much is real Negro dialect and how much is Harris. 8Richard M. Dorson, American Negro Folktales (Greenwich, 1956), p. 124. 9Cousins, p. 114. 8 For example, a Negro correspondent once sent a story to Harris. An exact report of the correspondent was: Mr. Harris I have one tale of Uncle Remus that I have not seen in print yet. Bro Rabbit at Mis Meadows and Bro Bare went to Bro Rabbit house and eat up his chi1drun and set his house on fire and make like the chi1drun all burnt up but Bro Rabbit saw his tract he knowed Bro Bare was the man so one day Bro Rabbit saw Bro Bare in the woods with his ax hunting a bee tree after Bro Rabbit spon howdy he tell Bro Bare he know whare a bee tree was and he would go an show and help him cut it down they went and cut it an Bro Rabbit drove in the glut (wedge) while Bro Bare push his head in the hole Bro Rabbit nock out the glut and cut him hickry. Mr. Harris you have the tale now give it wit I never had room to give you all you can finish it. 10 This tale appeared in Uncle Remus: His Songs and His Sayings under the title of "The End of Mr. Bear."ll One only has to read his story to recognize Harris' crafty art. A comparison of the two versions proves that Harris did not merely copy. Thus, despite his repeated insistence that the stories are "pure folklore", they seem "folklore somewhat embroidered."12 Whether Joel Chandler Harris' tales are pure folklore or embroidered folklore is a question still unanswered. His volumes of material certainly preserve a portion of literature that could have been lost in time. He will always receive credit for making legends famous which were engrafted on Southern soil. However unique his method for writing, though, could he not have broadened his subjects more to be completely representative of the Negro? Would his dialect have been so consistent if all his volumes of work were true folklore? Is much of the originality lost when many of the tales are traced to Africa? 10Ju1ia Collier Harris, The Life and Letters of Joel Chandler Harris (Boston and New York, 1918), p. 455. 11Harris, Songs and Sayings, p. 119. 12Brookes, p. 40. Regardless of the answers, none can deny the talents of Joel Chandler Harris as a folklorist. Brookes' ending lines of her analysis of Uncle Remus is quite fitting: "In the Uncle Remus Books there is fancy, there is fun, there is wisdom, there is philosophy, there is literature to be relished for a lifetime. ,,13 "Ef you ho1's on ter yo' pra'rs 1ak you does ter deze yer tales yer doin' mighty well." --Nights with Uncle Remus 13Ibid., p. 149. 9 BIBLIOGRAPHY Brookes, Stella Brewer. Joel Chandler Harris, Folklorist. Athens: University of Georgia Press, 1950. Cousins, Paul M. Joel Chandler Harris. Louisiana State University Press, 1968. Dorson, Richard M. American Negro Folktales. Connecticut: Fawcett Publications, Inc., 1956. Harlow, Alvin F. Joel Chandler Harris--Plantation Storyteller. New York: Julian Messner, Inc., 1941. Harris, Julia Collier, ed. Joel Chandler Harris--Editor and Essayist. Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1931. John: The attached is the information I collected in Cleveland, Georgia. I made a week-end trip up to Nacoochee Valley, Robertstown and environs and talked with quite a number of old people, but none seemed to know any stories. A couple who did know some refused to put them on the recorder. I had been given Mrs. Telford's name and was told that she lived in Cleveland. As a last resort, I stopped at her house and she agreed to tell me what she knew. However, she would not let me turn the recorder on until she had gone over the information with me once. I was very disappointed with my collecting efforts, so I also wrote the term paper but I did want to type up what Mrs. Telford gave me even though it was not what I wanted. Judy Blair Judy: Is the volume up pretty loud? After she does one, I'll cut it off and see if it's doing O.K. Mrs. Jim Telford: You ask me if I'm Mrs. Telford. HOw's that? Judy: Just tell me who you are and where you were born. Mrs. Telford: I'm Mrs. Jim Telford, and I'm living in the house I was born in 82 years ago. Judy: Do you know any old tales you can tell us? Mrs. Telford: I might know a few if I can think of them. I should be able to remember some old tales. Would you like for me to tell you a little rhyme that I heard when I was a little girl? Obadiah fell in the fire. The fire was so hot he fell in the pot. The pot was so little he fell in the kettle. The kettle was so black he fell in the crack. ~y~ The crack was so high he fell in the sky. The sky was so blue he fell in the canoe. The canoe was so soft he fell in the loft. The loft was so rotten he fell in the cotton. The cotton was so white he stayed there all night. Poor old Obadiah. Judy: What about the little Indian? Mrs. Telford: We have a legend and, of course, we people in White County think it's true about Nacoochee and Sautee, and I'm going to give you a poem about that (attached). It's just legend I'm quite sure but you'll find it interesting reading anyway. About how Nacoochee's father threw her off the cliff of the mountain--threw Sautee off the cliff--because his daughter, Nacoochee, wanted to marry him and she jumped off after him. But I think almost every mountain has a similar tale but I grew up thinking that was true when I was a little girl. 2 Mrs. Telford: We use to have an old Negro mammy here in our family who had lost a leg when she was a little girl, a young lady, and she had a peg leg, if you know what a peg leg is. It is a wooden leg that you attach around your knee some way, and I use to hear her sing. And one of the songs that-"he sang was "Johnny Got A Letter" and I can't sing at 1\ all, but I'll sEg it a little bit for you. Johnny got a letter oh yes. Johnny got a letter, Johnny got a letter Johnny got a letter, oh yes. Johnny couldn't read it oh no. Johnny couldn't read it, Johnny couldn't read it Johnny couldn't read it, oh no. And he took it to the elder oh yes. And he took it to the elder, he took it to the elder He took it to the elder, oh yes. And the elder couldn't read it oh no. And the elder couldn't read it, and the elder couldn't read it the elder couldn't read it, oh no. And he took it to the preacher oh yes. And he took it to the preacher and he took it to the preacher and the preacher couldn1t read it, ah no. And he took it to the Savior oh yes. And he took it to the Savior and he took it to the Savior He took it to the Savior, oh yes. And the Savior he could read it oh yes. (gets louder and more expressive) And the Savior he could read it and the Savior he could read it The Savior he could read it, oh yes. Oh yes. By that time the baby would be asleep. Judy: Do you know any haunted stories? ~trs. Telford: Well, there's suppose to be a house in the country they call Whi te County's haunted house and it's still standing and is owned by a 3 woman who has just gotten back from overseas. She toured the Holy Land. The tale that has always been told is that a slave was whipped to death in this house but now as to whether that is true or not, I couldn't tell you but that is the tale we heard as we grew up. You can hear queer noises in that house at night and the food for instance, if you left oranges on the table, they would be gone the next morning. Things like that. Judy: Do you know any about doctors? Mrs. Telford: Well, no I don't know that I do about doctors. There are people all around every mountain community that are able to conjure off warts and do things of that kind. But we had a right interesting thing happen here to a doctor that we had in Cleveland and this is a true story. Old Doctor Underwood was also a lawyer and a preacher and after his first wife died, he was called to a neighbor's house as a physician. Mr. Fortner was sick and while he was there he wrote Mr. Fortner's will as a ~~~er and then Mr. Fortner died. He preached his funeral and then he married the widow! Mrs. Telford: I don't know that I know of anything else that would be of interest to you. Oh, I've always heard that the Sunday after Easter is always colder than Easter. Then I remember having heard when I was a child that it was time to lay by corn and that laying by corn means that you can no longer have to hoe it and get the weeds out, I understand. But it was time to lay by corn when the blades on the~alk of the corn were as big as Jenkin's ears. Now just let other people find out where the Jenkins' ears came from. 4 Judy: You better tell me again. Mrs. Telford: Jenkins was one of Georgia's first governors and he lost his ears in a fight in the war so that is where the Jenkins--I didn't know when I was a child who Jenkins was but I found out later in life. How about holes in the ground and the Indians? Mrs. Telford: Well, if you notice our old courthouse in the middle of the square which was built in 1857, of which we are very proud, the architecture of the building and all and our Historical Society is doing its best to keep it in good shape. A rock from around the wall of that courthouse came from a yard of the building across from the Baptist Church and when I was a little girl, I use to walk back and fourth to school. There was still signs of where the rock had been gotten out,looked like holes in the ground and it was a common tale to tell new children when they went to school that that was where Indians were buried and if they would go up there and stand by the side of this grave and say, "Oh Indian, Oh Indian, what did you do that for?" he would say nothing at all: Which, of course, was true but they never would get me to go up there because I was afraid he would talk. Judy: Do you know any stories about the Lord or the devil? Mrs. Telford: I don't know that I do. Let's see. I don't seem to be able to think of any right now. If you have a hallucination and see a white horse, it means there is going to be a death in the family. I don't think I can think of anything else right now. Mrs. Telford's address: My permanent address: Mrs. Jim Telford Box 158 Cleveland,. Georgia Judy B. Blair 6708 Lucille Avenue Lithia Springs, Georgia ~, RELEASE * By letting us collect your traditions--stories, songs, music, sayings, riddles, or beliefs of earlier days--you have made a valuable contribution to preserving and understanding Southern history, and especially the history and way of life of your community. Because you have given unselfishly of your time to do this, the Georgia Folklore Archives, whose representatives are dedicated to preserving these traditions, wants to protect your rights to this material by guaranteeing that it I~ill not be used for unscrupulous commercial profits. By signing this sheet, you are giving us permission to use this material for educational purposes so that people who are interested can understsnd how life was in the old-timey days. Your material will probably not be printed or issued on a record, but if it is, and you don't want your name to be used, say sowe respect your ri[;ht to privacy. Thank you for the time you have an important part of American life. that you want to send along to us so given to help us record a heritage that w If you remember any more old-timey things that it will always be preserved, write tOI Georgia Folklore Archives c/o Prof. John Burrison Department of English 33 Gilmer St"., S.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30303 Signed Address For Ga. Fl. Archivesl _ A PDF transcript exists for this recording. Please contact an archivist for access. Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions. As archivists, we acknowledge our role as stewards of information, which places us inaposition to choose how individuals and organizations are represented and described in our archives. We are not neutral, andbias isreflected in our descriptions, whichmay not convey the racist or offensive aspects of collection materialsaccurately.Archivists make mistakes and might use poor judgment.We often re-use language used by the former owners and creators, which provides context but also includes bias and prejudices of the time it was created.Additionally,our work to use reparative languagewhereLibrary of Congress subject termsareinaccurate and obsolete isongoing. Kenan Research Center welcomes feedback and questions regarding our archival descriptions. If you encounter harmful, offensive, or insensitive terminology or description please let us know by emailingreference@atlantahistorycenter.com. Your comments are essential to our work to create inclusive and thoughtful description.