Marsha Stone’s interview with Luther Rickman and Norris William (part two)

The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. This is the second of a three part recording; in this part Luther Rickman continues to reflect on his career as a Sheriff. He starts by recounting the muder investigation of Bob Tyler, a worker at the Tallulah Falls Railway. Rickman found Tylers body three months after his death, which led to the arrest of Tylers neighbor, Thompson. Thompson had accidentally killed Tyler after a disagreement by hitting him with a rock. There is approximately a thirty-second pause in the recording, after which at 7:36, an unidentified woman tells a story about working as a bank teller during a bank robbery. She witnessed the robbers preparing to enter the bank, so she locked up what she could and escaped to a shop across the street for help. Luther Rickman (1889-1969) was born in Clayton, Georgia, to Joseph (1867-1945) and Sarah (1866-1963) Rickman. He married Stella Nicholson (1893-1985) and had four children; they stayed in Clayton where he worked as a law enforcement officer for 32 years. Norris Williams (1919-2000) was born in Gwinnett County, Georgia. He attended the University of Georgia until World War II, after which he joined the United States Naval Construction Battalion in the Pacific. Additional biographical information has not been determined. Collectjng Project Marsha stone Folklore 300 March 10, 1'J()9 Introduction My two experiences of collecting were "Surprisingly quite similar. I guess one r"ason was because they were both men and they both enjoyed talking and telling stories or tales, Another factor which made the experiences quite similar \Vas the weather, both ti mes it just poured down rai n. However, the rain did not keep me from enjoying my informants but it did keep me from getting any photographs of them, due to the fact that I did not have access to a flash. I collected Sheriff Rickman's information first. Even though his stories seem to be accounts of actual happenings, I feel that they contain folklife in them. I feel that eventually his stories may become or are now part ot the folklore in that area. Clayton, Georgia. Norris Williams, although not as old, seemed to be able to tell me more about folklore or folklife the way it was in the Old Timey Days. In his tales of these days I learned a lot of facts about which I had never heard of. Such as the knitting machin, marble games, etc. were only a few of the things that I learned, Over all, I feel that the project was quite enjoyable. However, I feel that if I had, had more time and better weather it Vlould have been even more so. ( I? '( )/ /, , /lA' 0.!/( (J,(1.\)' /\11" , /, Luther Rickman Luther Rickman, was born on March 20, 1889 in Clayton, Georgia which is a little mountain tovm in Rabun County in North Georgia. He will be eighty years old On his birthday. He has four sisters and two brothers. His wife was a Nichols, also of Clayton. He has three girls and one boy. Mr. Ricfunan was Deputy Sheriff of Clayton for four years a,nd Sheriff of Clayton for twenty eight years. He farmed a little and traded cattle, horse traded on the side. After he was sheriff he worked for the Georgia Power Company for a fe':1 years working on the "right of way". He is presently the Tax Evaluator in Clayton "hich keeps him busy seeing everyone he knows. Sheriff Rickman, as everyone calls him, is kno,vn allover North Georgia. Everyone comes to hear him tell about his adventures when he was sheriff of Clayton. These are some of the stories he told to me. He is a man of about average height and size. He has white hair and does not look his age of eighty. 'Vhen I talked to hhl he chewed on an old cigar all the time. He was very friendly and he has quite a sense of humor. He lives in a frame house un on a hill which looks out over the Raburn County Elementary School and on to the far off hills. He is remodeling his home right now. l'he inside is rustic but clean. He had a big fireplace which supTllied the only hf.at for the house and in the tape there is a poppling sound which is the fire. The way that I found out about Sheriff Rickman was through a friend who is from Clayton himself. He gave TIle directions of how to find Mr. Rickman which are on the map. Sheriff Hickman is an enjoyable old man who has a twinkle in his eye and a welcoming handshake to everyone. He made the trip up to Clayton very worthwhile. '1 V QJ l. ."f~ VI ( d C<;;.~- - _..,,- ....._,.- \ " f,:}. \._\ /\T LI\N r i~ I I 'II 1 I \1 I 'I I I I I \1 1,1 ! Lul,her Hickman Clayton, Go., reia Tape I Lutll0r: I said D total of twenl,y-ei g!yo years didn't 11 uh.. During liMs four years of denuty sheriff when ~he Geor~ia Power Company Vf\lZ a. b11i Idi n' the La.kemont Dam, A Negra killed anoth,",r in cold blood murder in late in the afternoon, Uh N"xt morning at daybreak I arrested this Negra about thirty eisht miles from where he done ~he IdUi n' in Mount Ai ry , Gergia, Ii tryin' to escape to make his way \)a<1< ta Ii'lorida. I had searched th,", Negra quartors 1 n CIB.rkesvi11e, in Cornelia. and thought 1,0 nl,Yself ~lwt Lids Negra might catch a freight train out at ~he edge of tovm and I told the officers tiw.t Vf\lZ with me for them to stay at the stat) on, Gorne1ia, an' watch the station an' I would walk up til,", rai.ll'oad ta I,it, Airy ,on'that they wuz a. freight train \n08t due, Whon I vm1kod up ini,o filt, Ail'.V just <:It the hreak of ,by they wuz, o' gentleman slided down the bank Viith '". dinner pai 1 under' his at'nl., 1 said uh f '3:t.la have you seen a Negra dr0ssod in a full suit of overalls yhere nnywhar? This gontlel1lnn looked at me an' ""id Sheriff lUckman, he's ri(;l1t thar in tho oafe, he's a. standin I in fronta the cafe when the boy amI myself 'raJ ked up. I kne" that this NigEer \\'11Z, armed with a 1'i3to t. :r l)aoked up an 1 ,:wlkod down a fev[ steps an' climbed up a b,mk an' eased up by the side of Ule building an' whon I did '.0 the door wuz epen. About that time I gave a jump an' jabbed the Negra \'Iith 8. ~hirt,)' oi[\ht '['eVa1"""" I,hat I have now, und('Y' the shoulder an' told him put his hands Up I said, ':ril1 g"t 'em up an' he U1W'W his hands in the air, Wilen ever be did it scared. dis lad chert wuz a YTa:i.t:i n I on dis N8gY.'a a fixin I 'im R fj_xin' I is bY.'cakfast. He nut in \1;.8 oroe r' and uh 'Nh8h he done that I called this lad, I sa:l.d, aJlne 'round hoaY' un' get, my han-cufs out of my belt [In I, an I put, I em on diG Negra. He said, an I tllis c111-1 t knmY me, I don I t 1nlOn how hut h,, did. lIe :"dd Sheriff Rei ckinan, sidd I'm scared to. I said I'll mak" '1m put his hands a"ross \,he counLcrr 1;0 you, \VeIl, I did, the bo.y como got the han-cufs an I snaDped 'em on I is hnn:;s. I siJid, Will, \'[here' s ya pistol? Says in !flj ri c,ht hi p "ocket, "Then I, when he said it twas 'in his right hip 'pocket he said, Sheriff Rickman, he soys listen, he said, you carc~y me to nny jail in the stD.te of North Celt'oU.na, they' Z'l hunex'd an' I'ifty dollcr :cmrard fol' mc. I killcd lily wH'c eli, ~ayet,tevil1c, North C,1rolina. an' sCl'v8d two years an' '3kipperl the chain gang an 1 -'dent ta li'lorJda, an I I've been there for briO yea.rs" He said nlY name is not ';'fill Wi.l1ia.lils atall. He sa.ys, you got a wal'rant for 'ilill ,,{illialils? An' I said yes. lie said I'm not Will iVilHm.1s, he said I'm I"rank Council, he sa.id I'm Wrank Uouncil. 1\n' I said m'T '.'fill you' I'Cl jus' tellin' me a uh line a bull. I said uh nothin' ta that. Yes, he said Sheriff m.ckmsn, It iz, he said if you don't think I'm telhn' ya the truth they'z a hunerd D.n' fifty dollel' :ceward for me anywhe'.'e in the State of North Carolina. An' he says please take me there. He says, i.f you carry me back un ta Clayton, said you vThite fOlks '11 hang me. I 8aid, WillI can't do that, I've got a murder charge against yUll y:l8l'O "'.tJco:,'dinE,t) "ha.t you say they've got a murder charge aga,i.nst you a1; F'ayetteviJ.J.e, North Carolina. An I I said, 1. can't , I can't carlOY you dcroSS no state .ti.ne but I'll carry you back ta Glayton. He said ;:,herirf Ric!<man, he said my mother lives about one mile from the convict camp. Now yhei'es ','There he made me b' 1ieve he's tellin' me the truth. He said, my mother lives about one mile from the convict camp. He says you tell capt'n so-an-so, I don't ]'"member the man's name but you ten him ta let my mother ",now that you've got me in Clayton jail. If you clHl 'im, he :OI,.i,l you call 'im an' he's still warden. He says, I had a letter from my sister last. week, lIe'z gain' under the name of Will Jones in Florida an' a workin' for the (Jeo rgia Powe:c Company at Lakeman" at that time. Well When he said that I "aid, what wuz y'our ca"t' s name? Naif no quickel' i.hat J. Bpi t that out I can't remember the name but he jus' tal' me "he capt'ns namA an' said you call him, he' z at t.he convict camp. We.ll when I can"" Ill'ought the Negra on put '1:m in jail, went bo.ck down La t,elelhho'.1e an' callcrl 'is narden from l,,,.yetteville, North Carolina. 1 guess in ten m:lnutAs I 'uz talkin 1 ta 'im. I so.id dis to 'im, I said to capt' n, have you got uh NeLl''' on' escape by the llmlle of I"rank Council'l I never will forget whut he said. He said, Hell yes Y'ol1 1m0',"' anyc;'!i ng about 'im? I said, yes, I 1mow ".Ll about 'im. I've ,ot 'im yhere in Clayton jail for murder. Well, he s:iri they's a hunerd an' l'ifty dollers rreward for eli s Negra, Sheriff Rickman in any jail in the state of North C"rolina. Vlell, I said I'll never b8 2),18 ta deliver 'im to ya. I said, dis nigger Jd lIed dis niggp,r most in culd - cold olood murder about a nigl\er woman. I said what he killed dis Neg,.a about the n:lgg"r ,lOman dat \\'1)7, a rlm!n' thp dining room for t..ho Ueorgi.a PO\'feY' Company had wa li<ed dovm liO a cOJlUnit1Sary an' bought her a pair of sli ppers from a' gentlAluan by the nmne--a lord have merey--I aeclare---Mr. Adkins had bought her a pail' 01" slippers an' anothAr eolored woman ',dth her an' t"o other Neg,.a men in the buildi n', when she walked in the store buildin I an I when dis Neera .lady, vroman wlllked out Viith her slippers, one of these nigger men said ta her, says Mlss Janie let me ciirry them slinpers. Well, she handcod 'em over to 'im. Well he went walkin I along with her an' I,he o'ther Negl'a man with the obher Neg.'a woman as tlley "laked out of the comissary up t,he street here sH 'Jill Williams. An' dis nJ.gger hollered an I :Jaid, 'dll I I z,now ]Jsten, 1'7, got elm slri."ned II block says I bOUL,ht MJ.ss ,Janle a pair a sli11pers. Yes, he says 1 111 g8t eha i)"fl):~8 ya sleep too.':!e Ll, they never thought llothin' hul. lent ,!alkin' on up che street ta her lit,tl' quartprs her eompany had D hp,', she had a littl' boy' U",r an' had a littl' bnildi.n' imilt for he~',when that happelled t;;ey 1'f,11kcd up an' ShA unlocked }V-;) I' d.()()l"'/ICY One man she hacl tao 1 111 DflY eats, one on one side de door an lone on the other, JJ.t/t.l' ole bo.y ~31ept. in one, "She in ot.hcro One couple sit down OV'fH' yh8Y'P. on t.he cot ou the col, on t.he r1.l:ht of the door. Well, dis tligl~('T 11l<'1.n sil, den"ln, t..h,;:J.t got k1.1 led fight. I)y' the door on the cot on Lhf:': left side an I d:i~l niW18r woman \,ftllked around tJ nnie an I sat do....m bJ 'irao 1\11 right, abouli tell lfri.nutn~, I thinJ("l'ruz the fH'vo:cn evidenco that thin. NOgf'Ll man t,ook ,,1 hold of thin door' an t lmJ.led t.he door open Dn I strucl< 8. lit.tl l ole t.wenty t"\'H) caLi. oer pistol ri.g,ht in 8gin dis man I s nock 8.n'l':i.recl one shoLl 'Jlhe Nogra t'H.r'ed un anI said, go for the doc~tor. anI WUgj dead. An ril~hi;, dis nIgger whirled ilack our, de door' an' Vf<tded Ta1J11.l1ah River an' Vlellt in the direction of 'l'ahlulah ;'al18 leavin'. All 1'1 [;ht, v,hen I got, down ta dJ s nlant they told me in the di)'eeti"n the Negra. had leff" Back in the days or horseback an I hOT'se an I l)uGg.y no ears to amount "lia an~yt, fiJng atall. Well, wh,m dat happedeu, 1 lit out an' \Vent ta hllnt'irl' ("n' dis Ngrao Went "1-,,1 'l.lahlulah i,i'alls, from tha'i' to 'I'lJ.t'llcrsv:tlle, {'rorn thar t.o Alto, An' from Alto ta l:larksville, GlarJ(88ville ta Gorm,lia, un' th,m nex I morning i=tt daybreak I caught 1im in l'kbo Airyo rPhe Np,gra 1'Yas t~r.~i8d here j,n the Superior' Court, arnoi.ntcd lim t,l"lO la.vJyers, Col. Hynam an' CoL Hamby. '('hey represented dis Negpa, 11e I z sentenced 1,a hang at a certain date, the best I remeLlli)Gr In Mapch. '.'rell, they em'ried <lis case up ta the higher courts an I it 'IIuz roveJ'sed an' came back an I he "uz scntenceu the ~3p.cond tiHlH c.m I nu'l, han~ed over yhBrc at the cOllnty c01Jrt house in the gallo','[s just behind. Luther Ri ckman 01aytun, Georgia TalJe I - Part II (Catching a greased pig) Luther, iUl' it lined, people lined up on hath sides a IYatcld n' the game. Well, dis thing went ta run around, ugh, this \\I,eele this uh, an' hit the wheel an' when it did I threw ma a,!llS around it. Ya havta reach in front an' jerk 'em backwards ta stop one. It's so sli"el< ya C311't catch one yhere '!lithout toi"n't outa ya hand!"l reach plum aoross the thing an' jerked it bacl,wm'ds an' that time I threw it plum In the ai r before Uw feller got to me" '.'fBll 'whenever t.hey sternAd ta me, uh, J,:'lr" Rafter, d.:'Ld, said, nh, Sher:iff, says, hold to :Lt. Well, the grmtleman that's runnin' the hotel un thar said Luthor, said IYhat, 'II ya taka fer that pig? I sai d what's he worth'/ ,"3aid about, soven dolla.!'s, J said give 't yhAre. I said yhel'e Oliver J'll gi VA ya half 0 e it. J never will forgAt dal, CclTltn' Doshe!' ole gentleman by t,hA name H Captn' Dosher. Vlell, nOd jus' "s dat Gaptn' Yancey, me a bein I a boy CI.n I Iim he wuz chD.irrnDn thon of tho Ppj son OOllllnisslon in Atlanta. Well, then when J come in thp. shori.ff's office J WAnt 1;0 'em clown thaI' ant I said Captn l Yanc8j/o J c[I.r.ried lem a-I~ounl" Ife an' rds daughter too, an 010 maii daughter if evor \IUZ. ',~orked in 'iz office. They vmuld come yhere an I I'd carry I em 'rou.nd ill dis yhere bUGgy dr:l.vin I I round the country oecvin I some o:tvil papers 'or somin I not.hAr. I' cJ go up t<J the hotel call Cantn' an' he'd ComA e;et. in wid niP, jus' a fine alA gentlemen's 'NAl' livod and so Vill7, 'iz daught.er', she 'IIp.nl, wid us t.wo or thrfle t.rips but anyhow" i:Jhen I come i.n an I, 1..1h, went down we went ta worldn I convicts I en a yore lat.Ar than thirteen "n' fourteen. When Vie went t.o" world n' 'em it cost. you as much t.o cont.l'ol J'll sa.y ten men out. yhAro as jt v{Quld tYlenty f]VA. You gotta have de same guards, you cotta have 00 S8,we numb8r ~'t men" 'Nell aJl 'at. de dj ffflrence is the food dey Ailt, pl'acticall,Y' an I lohA clbthos they ':!ar but. anyhovi we went an' t.hat WllZ tho violatj,on of t.he law an' v"e bought. de convicts clat WllZ sent,eneed t.a t.hp. clla.in gang frol<! Union C0unt.y over' yhp-re em' ft'ow T/~Q'rIS County. Well} wn started up 'wid about ton or twolve wId tnul, \78 had an' whut we got from TO'A"l'S un' Union. Vfell, I eot on de train went dOlm an' tol' Gaptn' Yune ey, J sa.id Captn' I want ye 'ta gi ve me about four or five good stout lUggers. I s'.J.d lIsten, ne've got you know the violt:l.tion of t.he 1[J.1N an I I said uh, you know we 'VA got tao fill these men up thar an' that expense an t we t vn got a wheplers I (J-t U'l. ....~hen ya done uh ya road bul-ldIn' wid mules, "lip han'les an' wheelers. I silid uh we need some n'.en need I e", badly, said Luther, I t.ell ya wha:t'll do says j f you'll go ta Savannah. He s ,"ya, I'll give ye two j.n Savannah, Vle've [\ot a " report says from Savamlah, lJacon, an'yhere in Atlanta, says I'll give ya two in Macon an' 'two yhere in Atlanta. '.Vell, I said thanl' you. He says, nay, how'll you han ' Ie 'them men? I said I'll go ta the sheriff's office. I, go't one p.ir a han-cufs wid me. I'll go ta sheriff's office an' borrow me some han.l.cufs an'but me a lead chain m' put dem han-cufs ltid lap l:lnks ,ius' so t.hey can slt on the train. I can han'le 'em all, yes, sir I can han'le 'em now 'e says, Luther, 'e says you might make a fool outa ye self. Never will forget whut he said, says how're you gonna han ' Ie 'ese men when a got ta res' room? teah hoI" ya gonna han'le 'em I said I'm gonna weave 'em in an out de door, I said it'll hold six men an' he jus' rUed laughin'. Said Vlell yheI'8 ya are I said now Captn' give me good,big, yotmg Niggers. I'lell, all rlght, I Vlent ta Savannah In' got me two, came back ta Macon, spent ta night got me 'two mar"" back 'to Atlanta, went an I told 'em I said now I want Captn' give me a wheeler loadel'. I :'laid I want, ,1 big Nigger. Boys, he says, Sheriff Hickman, he says, I've, I've got one that'll shore suit ya, Says he wej~gtls two hunerd an I si Kty p'JUnds 1m' twen'ty two yeers oJd. lin' boys 'o,oS lila }1igg(-n'q J10 CoU.L<1 h01.0 a \/heeJ.or do\'m ya f-:.nOVJ an I ya pulLin j I at de fuur mule:, out yhere, 'took S07f8I' ta loar! one, IVell, aLL right, J. lit out an' went down ta the jaj 1., uh, an I .l al-vfUz looked I em over ta See if t ey' 1'1U1? diseased or anything of that kind and nh Lhis alA biG Nif~ger come out dar an' I said noV[ y'o,) g,,.t b11.ck in dat cell, I VllIdn I t have you on a ChristmaS' Tree~ I went an' called Cn.ptn' Yancey I said Captn' 1 said uh I 'on' we-tnt eli s N8gra, I ::;8-1d 'ez not l1hysically able~ Vlell 'e sa.ys pick yo. out nne I at, , t.is \/ell an right he ;:.JaysJ I refl.l-- , ;,/0\1 pick out ya Nigger then 'e says the, I'll send '!.In an' ord8i' dmm to the jai 1 for dis Negr'n" J said all right, I ~vent an I rdcked rnn out a gl'ea.t b:i,g stout. slirn great big Nj Lger~ We called 'im ;<:ail, !lent by the n'lcknnme a ynil neV8C fel'git that nick lis Nigger out an' I got 'em che"p '" "11 he, he sent an orcle,' donn there, I lit out wid Ina Niggers, caught ma traln, [;Olllen 'Vm in the lIIornin' oame on up ani as -NO como up JUG I got. aULa the gunnc:(' an I as walked in \vid. I em and uh three, tVIO a sit.t.in l UfJ yhe.ce tyro in dis cel\t trm :in lat-un, two in 'is un an me bnok yh8re behind sit, stayed behind 'ern all de time, Don't never get up what' tlJey c,m wrap around ja' an' take ya pistol away from ,y8. or somin' like thiJt stay back all right, As I IfOnt in yhel'e come a big ginger-coke Nigger an' sOl'ta, st,3rted like he'" gonna si,t dorm by me un' I mlz in de Nigger coach. Now but i18 st.ad,ed like he nu7., ganna sit (lov{n b.y me, said you gi t, over thar on th"t, oth(~r side, well, when I snid ,latllis Nigger jus' politely smiled an' w8nt, OV8r th<lr 111' sit '01m, \'loll, \,,,e got on up t,o Chamlee an I nh 'bout de time we t 2'j gett~"n t up t,a Ghcunlec; h8 sa,] d MrR Officer, Sa:id, would yOll nru'o fo:c me ta bHy these men 8omth:i.n I ta 0at or smoke or chew? J sai d bUy' em anything 'at Y\l\l wBnt Lo an' they'll arpreciate it em I 1'wil1. I said yon bring it to. JOe thC)ugh~ eirst "II' 1'11 p;ive it to 'em ya have'La be careful Ibout. lem somin' ta get avmy wJth hacksaws, or somin l a thEtt ki_nd. You never lmow bul, anyway t11i s Negra called the nc:vshutch. Back in that day i,hey sold magazines, candies, fruits, an' things of that, kind, little but.ter orackors an I, en I stuff on the tpHin. '.'fell lis nevfsbutch cHme l-,hrougb he toll tern ev I ryone asked I em ev I ryone what t.hrW wanted an I th(~y told I im(l Woll, nIl dght he bought 'ern a round thar, 'Hell, from th:d, J talked a Ii ttl' 1',0 'im "nd uh, fi'lally, the Y(--, 2S we got on up nenr Cor'nelia do\'m in thar >lhenever we got, " comi n 'out D,t CornAlia, I called lily Nlgl;"rs an' 'ey, ''''Y' lflalked out by tim he!:] standin' bi).ck th'J.r n(~aI' lds seat. 'l'l)ey made their cuy've, CDDle l'iC;ht back out an' out. the rloor, tllo by t\'lO, ]wn-euffnd t.ogetllC'r, Well, all richt 0.'0 t,hese six Nigg"rs v{Hlked out an' me behi nd 'em this NiggAr folloY/Ad ouL 'bout t,hat, 1,i.iIle says l:r. O;'ficor, he says, uh, whars Lakemont, OeoI'gla? I said its eight mtles south of Hhar 1 ~-ive--G1D.ytono He says J I Z n goin I to that Georgia Power' Company job. I said ,rell, ,1 ...1 right. I said ,yes sir they've Lot lots a Ne"roes there. Well, through that, we caught th~ pnsscngPI' train on up yheI'(3, as "'/8 came on up he bought f em another round or tobncccr anI d:i.ffer1nt things. ','fell, I'Ihen he done that vre got dorm jUf,t hefore ;Y8 got to lA, emont though he sa.id to me he sai.d sheriff he says uh, he says what about"-VlhatJdnd of quarters ho.'1e they got, An' r said uh, they've got uh r s,een he 'Ull sorta a hit:,h up ginger-cake dressed vory nice, W1' a m'm t,h"t ''IllZ six f80t two "n' just sloped from hi" shoulders yhere to h:is feet. lIe I'TU?. J~-r'ect Elf; he could be, just, a perfect specimen of humo.nLty, "Jell, ,dr ho; s,dd, what kind of qua.rtees have they got1 1 said l;hei f' sleep1.n t quarters D.tl I I've been in I1h81"'0 their food i.n 'the (Hid.n I room and r said t.heii', t.heir, their --it's good. I '!fent on an' told 'im and I don't; know '!vhy but HE; 'is Nigger got off 1 said Will, he'd dene told me that 'iz Will. He'd said Uut to me tho first Lhing, I said, \Ii n, don't you git un thnr an' fall in love wi th Mi:3s .Im ie nOVf. This l:l',tl' ole Nigg"r woman.vho 'UII 'round. yhCl'e (laUGhs) h,.,r husband IffiZ dead and s)lI, In;,d a Ij ttl' 01" boy about, lo'm"l:Je or fourteen years old--in charge of the dinin' room. r said now don't you fa.ll in love ,(fit-h Meiss Janie now an' he laughed right big like an' said Sheriff dekman-no- "J'f,eU, a.ll right, 8ure 'nough-,-tlnG on WcrjnAsday, on ll'rida.y n1 ght NUZ nay dd.,Y n' th:ts Nil';gel' WB.S a noted gaml>lc{' too, Hovi he WUy, a noted gambler a:1' I reckon perty swart. uh, He got off-- "ell, "hen h" did there cmoe on an' they oa11","1 me on Friday night an' said She,.,j.ff 111ckm3n, t;et down Jrh8re quick as you can he said Miss tJ an:le t 8 Ii tt.l t ole boy has, he sax,), NigGer '11 bee dead befOl'o you. can get yhcre. Well, all right, held cut 'im. Well, yheres what hapncned. ThBre's four Ni.ggecs now he W"nt in thaI' nn' thew had ninety seven ,lollm's, '['he o~,he'C fOUl' Ni.ggers did. 'Nell, by .'Iud he didn't hav8 but a f"w dollnrs, they., ho let 'em gel; money off of him everything he had an' then Inrrovred back some on Uw secmd go 'round but. when ho did he began to t.ake theJr money t.he -r i'-'sL t.hing they knew this Nigger had ever,,! dolliJ.r they hn.d. One had put up a pail' a shoes on' rlDother'd put I1r:, seems like it 'uz a hat\ Or somthin' another. I forgot '1lhat but anyhoVl ',Ihile they ,I1Z uh in their diseussion-five of 'em now, four others. They'd been La I'Drk an' dl'aI'red thci l' money an' he sittin' 'round the table. l'Iell, this Ii ttle NIgger, well this Negra -,romm 's, Miss ,J anie' s little fourteen ,'fear ole bo,\, an' u small Nesra to his age had 11h, \'NZ a standin' there--tbis Nogra Will an' anoth:31' Neg:ca II8'ce cussin, eCieh other an' this little Negra ealled tld.s Negra an fl.I'rtul name an' told hilfJ he wuz a tryin' to mi streat bis Begra. He took his money. ','Iell, thi s "Ii IIi aws, the ]j ttle Negl'a 81lOre over here in the court I;hat he slapped him. He 3D.id :3herlff Hickman. I didn't slap him, I hit him;6th the "D.Cle of my hand )'it;ht ln th" face, slapped him back-~rcls. '.''/ell, thls 1i:ttl' ole Nigger I'rent squallin' an' ant the door. All right, he gave these Negroes back, thon t"elve dolla:cs, [,hree dollal's a niece to gnlllble again, sorta made it. look GRSyll .uone had had the ninety sev-en, well nIl right he gave that bacl; to 'em. Well, nhen they VIU2, a gClmi)lin r an I, un I he If:d:. t GIrl get. some morr: woney hut then he got it every l,it back the second go 'reund oc"u1'ed. Well, this ].'1 ttl' Nlgge:r he'd dow, ::;lapped had done b',en gene out about ten Or fifl;een t;/ent,\' minutes wrlybe or longor I'lhonever t,Jwt happened hiJll an I this same Nigeer got into a ro\r again. \'Iell, when they dlcJ this oU"", NiEger had done rase up a.n l thp,y'z like thrw \,[UZ a t~onna go tin fightj.n 1 an 1 8.8 'un st:-u'ted tn raise up this littl' ole Ni gger' had stepped :i n trwr an' he lilL bim with a knife right. arouIld yhore, (points to abdoIlv')n) an f he come plum around nearly to the back bone. Pulled Lhat Niggers--Iooked inside tlint Niggc" just, like killin l a hog \'Ihon I got down "Lh"lr o Well, they t,old ruo 'bout ito Hell, when J Got thar I l'loked in thai' an' seen the condition the Nlgger 'Il!Z :i n an' Miss Janie wuz thaI' sald Shoricff IUckman SHy" uh. I got. ma boy ybere says vrh9:t ln l;he world VillI 10hey do with him? I sald ,Janie they can't cJo noUrtn' the ;j udGe can' l; do noLhin' ,m' hi III fOllT'tc"n YPCl rs old \l11t scnd hi III \'0 tho colored trainJn t school 'til he I s twr~nty on8 years old snid thElt t G thn and of the ]j ne, that' 8 all t,hey can do m t dv,t they will do wcoll all l'i[;b t, yher'c wuz this Nigger a lay:i n I tJwr. I stayr,d thaI' then ill" helped DY'. llal'dman sew 'im up. Doctor an' myself kin<la laugh..cd an I talked about ita Ii ttle an I uh I said uh <lac, he can I t Jive now c(ln be? He said, he I ~ tipped his lung that' sher'iff "ith th;J:t ]'nifc tIpped the bottom of h:ls lun6'S where all the blood's comin t J'roHl--dgOt. that stonped. We!.l, ~,he doctor [>ot -;-,hat stopped an I eot him Sl'~~'fed Up. He 8:.J.YS you CUll It tell about. a Nigger/> \tell, sir he an I uh, just a theee weo1'8 from that I ;lU7, back an I forth do\'m there every few d[lJTS o \'11311, hy George I waJked up I:JO a hardware store an 1 thar sat. ma Nigger' sit Will...-snme ODe 'at 'uz cut.'\1 (0' Luther Hickman Clayton, Georgia Tape II ( The death and burial of Mr. Tyl"r') Luther: I don I t remembe [' the year that D. L. Thompson killed a Mr. Tyler at Tiger, Georgia. H(-~, Tyler, '.'las u sectj on hA.nd on the '}'Hhlvlah F'a118 Railroad. 'i'yler went to Thompson's home and they had some di sagrcemo'1t an' l'yl"l' hit l'hompsol1--Thonnson h:\I:, Tyler '.'lith arock, ,",d.d he didn't intend killh,' 'im but he swm ttut h" h"d--it 1fUZ a rock. I took lt outa Id S h(w.d outa hls come u ~J on top of the e;rolmd in diffel'ent pId.ceso He buried this m<:m~ He h) covered hiUl ~\riLh some rock, \'lith :-l. toj} sack, some lC'.Aveu, and dirt. Carried soft dirt that night out at' U1G field \lhere it had b"en plowed up from unde]' an applo tror~o And 1Iyl--uh--'.r.hompson--T;~/ler w"uz mlssin' I> 'rholJlpson--I IYGnt to frhompson t S h()~i se an I asked him what he I'new an I he saJd hE' left his hal se and he helped-'l'hompson--helped hunt for 'f'yler di efe,"t deWS in mountings. We went to abandoned still hO) se places, We went on thn lakes, an'l hunted. I called hifJ relatives in Jackson County, Noeth GaroJjna ,mo couldn't geet report. t I callGd t em in sorne plD.c(~ in Alaballla and couldn' ~~ get IJny r(;port~ and t.his thing went on ('or tln'ce mill thf) for ninety days to a day. And t",o men, llr. rr,ylerls son, Salll 'ryler, and Ii'red Hoane l,\f)lZ a clearjn I CJ pasture fteld and Llrank '.lal;c,,.r thnt morni ng out of the br'anch. Well, about two 0' clock in the aft''''noon 'ryler l'I",rt Un to the '"'dge of the field \ihar it \/Uz fenced and \lent 1,0 get him a Llrink of VlatE'C an' smolt the watnr. A dreadful scent-an I called [-lonno-an I he said, H,OHne, -_li11'ed_ he says go an I call Sheriff Rickman. lIe says 9heriff Rickman says my Daddy han b"en 11uried. Ani he S"JYfJ hp.'s right up thIs bollur. !:',Iell, J7.oane went !A)Ltv,,: t,olc\1hotle and culled mo anI, whon I got dorm thnce Saw Ty1er--no--y'os--;hm Tylol' had went and got a shovel an' ba.,l uncovor"d his father's foot. Up this holler in a si n1, hole an' we took the body out. Picc88 decayod so bad th8.t,.,e had to take it a).t piece by piece. It. Vlould .iust fall apart and I \Ient, I had'l'hollipson in ja:il at this tim(1 foe burgla.ry and r "ond to vrllat I thought was Thompson's \'life 80Jnetime berorc t.hj S .3nd learnod th;! 1:. she \"1;'"}[3 a COTmnO)1 18.iV ll'ife an t I went to her 3D' }. told bm', I ,said, I'va hoen ca,lling you N,rs, Tholflpson but I'm a gonna call you by your right name, \,Irs. gIla, I said, tcll mc the truth of tell mc~ nothlng6 I s,;lid nay; I dug, Bob Ty-].Cl',--l1o'l) 'rylel"s body out of th,,' gt'ound over ,yhere and I seliel 10,,11 me 1'h," ernUl, ::lho looked across at her old age mothe,< and ,;aid, "1.1am", I'm gonna 0011 th", sheriff just I'lhat haPll<ened, Sh'e said th,t the--'I.'hompson, h3.d. h:U him wit.h a 1'0ck and ~,hat. t.hen he realized oInt he hnl\ killed him nn' t.ook him out. tha.r nnd buried him an' \Vant.ed hGl' La hep cnrry dirt. And she I'lOuldn't do it but "he says I did cnrry the ligh r, :md ho cilt','eel t.hroe sackfuls of eli rt from elovm yhere nndm' the anplo l',rce whar il; 'd boen plowed up an I pourod on I;he body ,1n I from trwt I came to "ohe jail an' 1'holllnson, he d'~nieel t.hat. t.hii' puor fella pa.ssed away mad.""! B. nwnber of y-n,lI's was sBnt.encpd hj 8 .Li.l0 an i 1I1B-de a number of y"ars and died 'in 1')0,7, Ho got cut (of Ute pen:iteM,iar,Y). Norris Williams Norris Williams is fifty years old. He was I)orn within four miles of his present home in Gwinnett County, near Lithonia, Georgia. He was an only child, He attended the University of Georgia until World War II and then he served in the Navy Sea Bees as a Medic in the Pacific Theatre, He never finished his education. His wife, Emma, is from Delaware. They have no children but welcome any guest that comes their way. Norris built a garage and breezeway to a house but somehow this house was never finished and they became the house by walling them up. His land is many acres and on it he has a lake and a pasture full of cows, He is presently working for himself, surveying and constructing farm ponds. He owns two bulldozers and a truck trailer for transporting the do~ers, Most of the repair work is done in his own shop. Norris, a tall, slim man has redish, graying hair. He is very witty and quite frank about most matters. He wears a hearing aid but does not seem to have trouble hearing, He smokes a pipe most of the time, His education did not have much effect on his stories because they were just as he remembered them from his childhood days. I found out or met Norris and Emma through a friend. They are his godp,~ rents. They were more than interested in helping in anyway they could. Norris said that he would be glad to locate some more informants for other students some other quarter. Just the same, lie Wa.B very kind, There is a map describing how to get to his house which sits way back off the road. It is in the setting of the rural area of Gwinnett County but very nice and very quiet. ~(i"(.';.,, VJ, 1\ ;()\Xy\ s '7 lu Ce n let v; I Ie, (.)cl(ck ~') L)Xl, klc'(\\,{ C,) Norris Willi-flins Li than} <3., f1eorgia Norris ~ 'N~llJ I l:n fi fey years 01 I or'young or over' hO',HWCP Y"OU {i[fnrb ta aEry it and I I'Ve IJved in about, four miles of where 1 am rit~ht now 3.11 llly life but what, t,ime I \"las in the Navy, Hnrino Corps, CoB's ano uh, Hiclin l fE:'; freil;hl; trains 0Ll t, in the \'lest up in t,a Gfmada an' few nlaces like that. Whon I wuz a small chap "when I \TU?" four yoars old I wnz, I \"lUZ llving In Snellville, thaVz about, foul' wi les up t,he road. J,y g"andfather "'un a store up tln;:cc, a general st.ore uh. Back in I em days uh, ['olks 1ivnd on a farm, a lots 0[' I em "NOre s harn croppnrs in thi13 {l,reD. an' they 'truro furnished.. Th8Y drove 1\11) 'ehey jus I paid t,hei r' bills Once 1\ y"e,".l.r und :.rl1t rruz ;/hen the;)r sold .(/-",(.je.ll' cot,ton und rrhen thos(~ people Id COllm to Lhc store anI mO~it or' ';'Ihut they bOllght '!.'ll7J side nlP"t, sow bell;y, ev'body culled it. They'd buy thIs mput an' a lol,s of the - most () r the time it 'imdn' t be '..,ropped up. They'd jus' t,llrow sIal) of it, acrost. th~iI' shoulder an I ~)rjng the:i,r O';'fJ:1 glDR8 ~iug rd th I em, jug to the store an' dl'1\YI thll1:. --the sc:l'Up come In a nixty five gallun barrel I lJ'lieve, they called H., KInd of 11 hogs-cad. An' tll'oy'd dr'a\'! '(ern a rht'1~lln of nerup, GL:cuck m:,:; Wi strange 'bout:. the businef3s after I f~ot bit..; tlHJ.t 'nol.l{:;h to eou(lL t,11<1(, tlle store man did all the counU.ng. fI" dId all t.he 10l;in' in he give nobody a receipt. He'd, you didn't sign nothin', lin (lid all the wr:lti'l'. So he had to be hOl1C'st uh else't he'd ire the richest man l.n t\,e cllllmlUnlt.Jty. Norris: t.\~l()n I wuz, about.. five ynars 01d. this bU8:l.n~:~8s of l'lL~win t set-back hit dis counl:."r.y .Like a storm. AnI ev'bndy n]a,)T~d sf;t.~back evlry ni{~ht seems like. A.n l thex'c IYrH'on ' t no \'my t.tl.- go hnt rmlk o Ant tl1f:~y'rl t3ke~ me an' my mew, an' I tl18 only cldl'. We l1sul111,y dl d mOl'e than anybody cause the rest of ' em had a house full of yungins. I had ta do marc walldn' than anybody, rrhey'd sta~l ll,Le, I don't, lCl10w hOIf late buL lnLe. Ant tllen get me up outa "Ad and l'd have ta \Iall~ horn an 1 I could walk hDme in the 'lIe,,,t an 1 :i fit '/IUZ wet l'd step in a mild hole one't 'n a while ya know. 13ut ya Jr\O,'1 I 8W01'8 and he dallll1lJd. one thjng. If I ev"er P;l'ow l (] up ltd. lV3VCH' play c1xcds, an I I Din 1t plc:ty"Clcl no car'ds yet. An t I Ivon bCf~;l nroun I SOillO mi gh+,,Y h:tg c:ird -r1ayj n' in lfIy life. I w(mt ,1ver to a bo~rs 8chooli/hcn I \'M7< a kid., ya Lnow? 1\ boardin' 8<:hool off, and' [,he,Y 1d rlay penn;,r ant.! all ni~:ht play nO cards. 1 djdn 'l, have no\:.hin 1 1gainst it but 'imlldn 1 ya kn 0'1'1 i\nel uh but 1 dJdn1t j( 1101J10 jn de d.Dr~, Norris: Thon, 1J1I, ann i~ilile t.,lH_~Y Usc: ta have I,-.;here you'd. harLer evf+..h:ine uh, ya l<now? I{ou I d take 80m I 0GgS 1,3 t,lJ(~ ntore and. sliap :t t for corree and you I d takf-'l bUt~ter an f 0 An I I a l:i."Ltl t bjty cuns all. I my mw,'i s8nt ill'3 t3. the storB \dth uh an I I had 2. littl' red cOflfJl:.er wagon. 3h,?' sent me to the s!;ore ai [;h a part.y goor! load of b"tl,er an' I go\:. ta. wnldn 1 too Hiuell \:.i",<: an 1 turned tbn ~m.gon ovep tmd it. I"Jl13 hot SUlnUlel..t,ime tm I spilt Lh"Jt lond a ole but\:.er in t.he sand an 1 I just'1ieked jt all nr an 1 e8,rried j 1, on to t.1", s\:.ore Em 1 then the lOan '/Iouldn I t take i 1:.. I fwd n had a tim0 I bout.. t,h;Jt hut.ter. nut EN lthjng ;iJU'li a, a b;l.rtr~r ,Jeal lot, of 3. lot 01' ba{'tcl'~.n I aD I I re-- LCltCt' on the,V" got around t.a hav; nf,-~due-bills. Yf! ovor hp;-lrd of a uUA-bill'? Well, nO'N \:.he.,r I d iGsue D. Ii ttl' l,hing like RCl'ipt l,lwY'o ,,,-,,dn 1t no lIloney' much an I it wuz an 1 I. O. U. You'd C;U'l".y t'dO rabb:i ts yon l--; nOll or th'('n(~ r';-l.bb~i ts. Now lie all 'round h"re nse \:.0 ':at D 10\; of 'rabl)il,s a lot of squirJ'el, lot of fresh .(jH~at \'{Hz when ya l~noekr)d a hog 5n the heud or '3 ()1lli3 body' 1n Lhe conununj.ty Yiould 1<111 a corr an I pedd.le it au -::.., Yet kno\v? In a 'Nagon.... yoll I d QPJJ n lot of wild ODe t.hi ng I I d .l:iko -too. llwnt:i on. 1m' Itm a.lwa;ys proud of th1.s. 'flu'Z nw grandfat,hcl... l .'ciln I his far-nd.n I. Now fi l'ty years :::11;0 he 1 7, keerdn' booh s on his faemin I op~ration an tt.h<:;,t t S SOlll' Ghin' l'alks didn I t r::Lart t.a doin' It 8fnount ta any LlJing til" ,teY' 'i'}orld ''Jar Two, Ke8p:i n' books on thej r f'm'IlI:; 1'1' opcrnJ,j on. And whero tl'1P-ue O[jll-;l" folles ~'[uz a runnj n' G\liIO, 1.',\\10, t,VI'O nmles fop fnt'lwi.n t tH~ nUttL"vunnin I s:i xteen, yo. knov~? 1\\01'[ IIW' Dad never did git ta opfm1,tin' that skill. 'rhe boll \("evil corn" in to 'oout his ':,ime of' u;ettin' st8rted --eightep,n I b'lieve it \'/u<z--seventcAno II8 dj dn I t fpcl the boll l'fCevil 'til nin'3teen ano uh I b'lieve it IN'Z and uh ',mIl it 'uz, 'in tho ti'Jent.:i r::~3 1fOl'C I kne';'f I bou.t But. t.he I'm,,,! my t~randf:=Jtll("lr' got around the boll wel."'vil situat.ion, now he ':'JlJ7. H cotton bJ'podcr. He never did sell Yn3,ny coLton seed in diG countr'y but he sold :J. Vlorld of it In Arizon:J. an I Texas. He shipped all oi' his seeQ" ya I:no,v? Hh, ya, "Ihat r'm j-,a.Udn' 'bout every year h'3' rl p:Lant uh I'.hat he call8'' his l)rag pa:kl'" Dh but it, vmz just one flat, I,jefl rield, i'ip-ld. thd.t he I d alwl17. put a lot 0/ HI:],nUP8 on an' fertilizeJl', But he',l go ont tlWl''3 an' "ith hiG hands he'd nick the choice ClO Us ovel' tb:lt 'hole field. Now be, h'3 :1.i J th:t bi Hls,lf. No IJ ,uldn' t deleGllte tlnt to nobody .11'1' then, then h" 'd take tint cotton to th(~ [',In ai't?';r ev1body ~18f}ld done ginnin t ,run 80W~ of' hts cotton he Nudn't savini for 30ed thcough that gJn so ev1body's sced Ie} gcd:. knocked out" ya know'? An', an' then Uwt' tbe"a,Y Oh,31;' the wos he got. hi.s 80"0 tk:t. be BOI,ed, St;cd Is }"'("ally thn sncrct of the S1..1~e(')8S :i n the, farmin I Uz the ::'l',:cd as mnch as anyth~.ng. Norris' they -.Lid :J.\VDY ii':ttl) all tl-lny fire horsr:-;:J my gY'andn.d. bOUt~ht ;:l. bunch ai' them iron coLL)rs. 'J'h:-l.t' S thr~'~ onl,Y iron liorse coll;n's I'v(.;), over saw an I t.hey WllZ designed so they'd hane; UT1 Hn' ','Ih~n the b(~11 '<1 r:ing tlley'd null the pope, d"m coll"I1's 'd fall dOlln an I lock 3.1'Olln<1 thn horsn:, nClck a11' thcyl d be gone ant t.hey didn't hav(~ bJ l~o om'm an' ha-('nr::ss I ern, Now, so it. wO:('}{ed f'~Dl good on the l'rrcm them, them, uh, -fj r0hoI'se hm'n(')ss you jus' thro',., one over r,he mule (elaps h<mds) and she's locked an' r.ady to go 11h let's sec. Now, on this hors~ bustness, he al\'fU'Z kept nil one, one bugLY hO'Cf.,0. He had ono hm'so that, she, th,<t, she nevor did w<[Irk in the {,i.old. All she ove., dono \1UZ pull the buggy, you know'l NOI'- th;;t "'Uz Ilis "dllil1l' horse. No" !',hon I say millin' horse I'm talldn' 'bout onee't a I,<,eek h" wenG ta mi.11, you know'? Carried SOlll\?: corn to. wj 11 ta got it groun I for ll10,0.1 I ~aUf)e uh cornbread :--/Uz a blg :i,tem -in ev 1boc1y-l s life in t.l1d.s coun1-,ry. 11hen an' I, every evonin' jw;1 to dmm ta t,l", crill an' [;8t corn. He '.1117, fussy, he'd love 'd it got to slln11 off' all th', tottt'm oclge grains, ya kl1ol,'1 'I'hen :Ii, hwl ta Ix. rnally se10et oorn to make bread ont of. Norris: \'Juz, nfl." Whe.n my I)rld h;~Hl this pneumonla Uft Lhoy, thF:y, thE'S'd let 'f/udn It n1<-Jl'rind an 1 all that nct.ivit,Y U0 LJ~lCpe that YIU7.i just J lJOF':; hc-:.:,ven ['or m~) yo. hnov'I'''l Al1t.h("~rn InLller:> an I hor~:;(~s Dn I 80 HiHch gain Ion. Now' the way He lle"'H1r did bUy ilot.ldn I lllUCh but, but clH~'.'Jin' tohacca" lle 'el bu.'! che~rin t t.ohacca bUy it in a fi VB ooun I box- in 3. 1ittl' wooden ;lQX, chewi.n t t.obaco<-:L" Hotd bUy some sug;~l' ;)D I he I d bu;~r coffee an I that I ti about i t,t That I B a.bout. all h~ 1<1 ever' buy. (~oul"se 110-, I even 'cemembc:l',vIH-m lily [;l"Bndmotll(:l' I1'UZ knitt.i.n f all t,llc :30ck[-) for t,he litt,ll I)OyS. Shl~ hnd H kni.U,in f lJlaCh1ne an I h"-~ had his h0.(, sit nOff, hinl held c[lTd it for' hf.~I', you know? So she oould WElke it into Lllre,ld so she could havf-~ :'ipinnin I ,d1<~el. An' lHl-lkc ID.t \'/001 int.o thrcarl o Ant len tFlkr.) 'in li'Ltl l 01A hund cl'Hnkmaclyinf'!l ani mnke socks. 11, wuz, it's a knittin l machin"_ Ya eV8l' h"ard of a tlwl-:/ '-"1,,11, thaVs th" only one that I ~v'?r hea'C'd or but :tt'd. do it. f\.n' ull, an' th0n now in rJh~ wint~l' time Uh011 it I d I:!,et cool enough GO CO\'{ 'ffouldn I t spaLl.. l'Jhl':'!l1 T sa;y spoil, nm'!' i 1m t.alkin 1 I bout .irH~re th8 vultu('(~:J \I"ouldn I t fly 'round over lH'nd, Ya k no\',l'! It,ld be dW:~d, ya lI:now''! ila.ng jt out ~_n :.;;mokc house, t.hl-";,Y had <;l. [Jmok~ }wuse Ibout as blg {1'] ~Jlds slIacJ-:- that 1 1m livlnt, jn. OUi'e did, An I, ani held }{ill go there c1,n1 slab it off ani uh :it'd. tD](C him nuout, thl"'W~ vil":'eks ~very ,yp:CJr fi rin I up hams _ Ho got, I don 1t know.'ho):1 mapy 1'lo(;s.. 71',1 d leilJ) but h, 1d have a place uh he must have fi ft""ll Or h1enty hams, ya Imow? An I he Id "oJ'k with thnt, ya knoll'/ He I d go get arple treeB, ya knol" "-1'1'1" wood, cut it off ';{hen he1d(cilO ur the ap"l" trees an' use tlJi s apnle ',wad, corn cobs an' hickory, lIe'd smoke I at meat ,'lith th't em 1 boy I,d, ''mZ good eat; n' an I thrm he'd sugr"r cure it., it1d. tn.ke him thpoe 110Hko'3 ta worh up tat m~C'.t. It. "mz a t..ln"'~e \inek JOb but, it, ,;/117, good rihen h'?!. got 1nn ,',i th it. U11 0 Nord s: I, I don I t, I don 1t doubt to ,m I can understand very readily 'Illy ev I ry body wants !l c.gJ' an I to gj t 'round fast becD.usc I t})ink U1C slmmst Nay a m;lD ever Lr:i.ed to gtt'.. an,YYlhere J'2. in a "w.gan. I Imember' one t.ime. I started of r r:i.ght yhe.('r~ :1.n dis cornmunit,y an I dis neilJ;bbor of Jllirl(~ ;i'.UZ t~Ol ng ta rnill Goon in the mornin 1 \"J~ left ('our ()t c lock 'at mOl'nin l anI l~Ut, back ,"t ninG o t elock 'D:!J niglrL. An' ',J(~ lwd a huslv31 0 I co,cn mrml grOll11 1. u~e rode all dat.. tillie, If'elt. like I'el cl berm clrounu d l Viot~ld ~n a Im.g;on, yo. hno.v? un, LhDt r~UZ (] lonl~ rjdn n11 l:.hat, ~ruz Ovne herG Df., li)ac;~lroY8 mill. Thn.t IS not fa.r, I cn"(l run OV{~}~ l:.hn:r{3 nOT! in a car an I I cml 1)" -Lh,.,:Y'c in 't)out fjve JllinuL(~s, liut 'dUZ dirt roads an' :it nuz rocky, Jrou kno',f? n.n' ya o~idnlt have no Sl)r:i.nLs on de wclgon an I ,yH jus I I at wu.'z n l'OU/.')l ride, uho Norris: y~)U knOi'f, I usr~ ta furnish 'elll a littl 1 nntr-,;rtnirnflcmt me an' ma COliS] n. Now mH cowri n hp' l 5 uh he' 3, he I8, ll~ IS up hl'~ en .'ri t l-,hp 1.'Ji lliams Snellville on ~'3atdy ev Inin f f:tgllt:tn' G .Tn;j UG I l'Jught jus I f'or the plcasuf'p' from t..hcsp. marble g:Jmr-;s 0v 1r','f sat.'dy evln:i.n l people 'd COl1ln to thn ~Jt..ore~ s,.,.~ thnt 'dUZ thl" s\lonnirl l da.v f'Oj'" I 8Hl, Snturd<\y', Su.t f ely BV' nJn I you I go -La ti1(~ store. NO'.J, nm'l th0Y talk 'b:)ut tlv~ NiGgers l~lA.nt..in I at I ely oJ' er Now I iJout loY I ryl,h:1 nf~, EJ.bont th::l.t gig :l.l-'uund. (slJorm lir:i.t.b h1s hHnds) Yon know, ho~v bit, <l s:ilv(~I' doililar lz'? IB'Jut the oi~!,t3 of a silv:~l'" do11,'Jr an' ~it J_B rna.de 0:1.> st..ono or rock. Ani uh, I \'fU'li nr':;V{)r ilH~r'esL".cl 1n thp. f';DJnC Inoueh '1:..0 lC::J.rn a.ll the:: d.f~t..-d.l.s, eon'\flgh to play but all th,':~ nJfm t,hnt \In?; 3. fasinati n I <fame nIayin I m.3.rblf?S on S.:.rt:.'dy r:v'nin l Ani uh, ani tll(~ 1Il8.rbl(} place :to r:ight un her'o :in SW.'311vill~ An I l-,}1"~r{!'; ',/liZ ()n~ guy CJ bVU2, come Lhere cv 1r';,( Sat f dy r~v I nln I ho rd ~)ring !1;-J.me 'dUZ Clevl"J Williams. H~'l wudn I t no kin to Inc tivll... 'fUz Hnoth~p :3t-:d"... a lot of U~3. Uh, nO'N Lllf~stJtI., th(~86, tln;s:!:'l, marble g.cHf!.f'~S Lhat \"{uz also I r!~mCmbF'.I' ani fH1V0 3f:''dn~('al ~Jnce a ,Y'-f"al~. 'Phey'ld si"...'-:J,y on :J.t dat TflOl'gUt:: for Q y'''>'l.r if he d-Jed righl... i,ll'tc.:r tho:"': la3t funeral tit":' j,"L~:d t(-, sil:::.;! there (1 ,yo'ar t i'ol'e the.y bUl'18d ag,J.-;n, ,va know'l lNhat. 1 1m talkin l lbout ani uh ""hen th~ gJl1nies come tlYcougll thnt \'fUZ alway'S t..h:lt wuz samin I new, you 1<no\-',. '1'h,'~1:, 'Il1)Z hiE:;: l'::nLr'rta: lnment an' I never will forget the mt":di(d[~;'I1) 8how. I l'('m~mber H. guy come through, I don't l(no'{/ I'fhut h(~ i,l17.. sellin', it ~iUZ prohild.tJon day-D back 'cm o He ;'[1)7.. sellin I SOJ!l('} kind of D. ton~i.c 3n' I DeVf"T.'wj 11 J'CY.cg:tt, he had a buggy an' he had a li. ttl' foldin' out -olatforrn on de back an thoG':C' ")),,,re )),,' d :3peech nf~Vv come liU de vi 11c1.g>?, ya know, ml'~dlcinc men, ub, nowo (> Norris: I l1S('~ -La t)(~ hj=)d 'bout Cll~3s:in I, y:3 1\nov... You know 'illlen I I'lent inta tihe Navy, t.he Nav,Y couldn't t':'{lch f!1(-ll; how ta cu.sr, atllll, I could. tnach I f'ml a. lolls, ya knO\1. \,Vhere I lC'al1t1 1d it wu~ 'r'ound th;lt storE~ tlwre, ya kno\yo 1 1(1 sl,a,Y 'J'o'lmd tlwt, :::r~or'e v/rmn I rruz a, liLt1' b:itJ':'el.ler an' ya knol'1 hOI,' Ul"'" Eng]j:311 l{)nEU3.ge~goodo Y;)U knuif bOIi A kid'llpick Ur-ings un l1J<n nt, TJ1ay:tn l i:1I1 I I cowe in OD I \HJJ1t.r~d ;.-1. tC~;-J cn1::e", A t:.~a C<l.ke is leI:! ].itt.l 1 I conlcl throli a roel<: jus I :::B straight, J don I t l~ntw I \'ru7" I '\'iU.7. all 'hout 8.n I I could t.h.cOd CJ. rock jus I I bout l:U<:c you coulr] uhoot n rd 3t.o1 an I so I run all 01" I,~m off. 1\1.1 tlH~ r,dlllnn ofr, m-'l'if :in0l"I.ldec1 an' J had HI(' D. liLtl' fea ..rL ~h0-C(~ anI tlle,'{ finally got mr: h~lillnr-":d un out the)"-' -i n Lhf~ GO I\' barn !1l-i' thp,y tann,,,l rna littl' butt :mt H'd tnkcm 'em all tn, do it, ya know. J pun outa rocks, I got, out:. thtH'e -jn 11;).t bFl.l'n lot an'!:.l-lf;X'I?:'7, too much nl:1.nure f)n l J conldn I t ;:'1r1' me no r'onks ~lO t.h!'l,,'/ h:l.d. w(; hl"'lllm(-~c.l un so Jf II r1 a r>tay outa t:.hat lot :fa knorl Lh(~y ;'vndn I I, .'J. caught }lJC~ U11, I ("~n one {) my aunts she f;icdd I 'el dC)f)C cu~;.sf~~d ll;~X' out goo(l, 81\(; .'JCl,y,c;) J'm gonna, Norrj.s, bo,Y l' enn lIC,:lr' het' right now. She st.unk ttl',it f:in;/;t' o.t fJH~ an all!."" t;cl:Ld, Norx'ic, llrn Lonnn. \{i'iGh ,yO mouth onL J I ,said, you st-Lck yo :J<':Hun -f';ng0r in Illy ),louLb ;-Ul' I'll hit,e :it first ~31d0~ I ,l'holllp .....---an' f~fY\:" do':m Go.i.t (lrtllghsj. An' (}) on l:ik~' (b.t. Use to ,:It. dat Sat I d.:,' "Illen t.l lCy l d. come yH knO'.'1 th(~ ..=;L('l~)' d COlli", toe: thn f3tOr'C Loo, YD. kIlO!,i. go~nl nn' pullln i un -r~h~ip OJY~S8~S Hn' I di,ln1t have no senBcS 8n' I'd go pull onn ,IOwan un ~Jh8 re.vhen sl1('::~ 8c':':S JJ)r"l ~)he t 11 ;:~o ha--ha--he-- lflU;~hi n I. Uhf.: t G Horr:1 ~3: 'IJUZ in' 29 but Il>"lil(";fllbr:::c thn stock rnurl<J~t l:'a.lli n' hut thn [yi Eo r::.jt, Ltd HI; J market but ,'lfJr."m hnins t:!fHrL to four cent.s 0. "pound T I~nowld '"hut thr- Hurk.:,t V,'11Z ten, ya lqlOV{. It, i.t ','(uz ju~-:; I ull, no,;; Ne had one l)Ul't'f'!Y' Lh".r'(: my :lmn'.cd:i'l.Le farnHy djd. l/,y lrl:-JII' 'dUZ, <,:1, scllool t"".aclV'~f' an t ri.ght Dl:.\ng 'bout dat an I Sh0 dldn' 8~"t nn nny. 1m I uh t.lHm. uh :'}h~ fiO<.1.11J t-:,of", naid :~ n ,:">oHle script. 0[' dur>-l.d.lls in ot,h-~.r ',mcds LlI/~ f-jtd+~(,,: giv(C~ '\~w I.O.U.'s now th t ".'1,]7, the u.ll. t 29 u~: -'"Tf~ll in '29 hr' \lU'Z <J. runnin I a eorn mi.ll li'lH llncl<'" o'..nv'~d a mill notion 01 raisin I soy bc~an3 hut, he !~ot. La i~rO'id Dt I (:;:~(~ ~lOy br--;<lns nOr\, Lhr.\y Lr'OH no Ltd n I bLl t. a r)il:,~ee or blade and Hl<'-ld0 a lilJt1 1 Ina(k~ a Tlut a h[-].nd.le on it out O "o'r'{""'ch indJvj dual l:ittl' b,;~u n ,st..alk ;:m t l(~t it l:-J.,/ 1-,'rv::('(-:- an I clU'p; out an I thml .you) yuu take l-.,hrrt'.(~ poles :1 OIF~ !-IaT'n!; ~"wgOn nnd l,ak(~ 1)1\ rl) toko S()Iiie 1::.11:1 DB. sacks, folks cull I nm toe ;fa. kno,,{ 'bont li]<>") this poom l)t~h and 1ay ':tIll t.hings do.nl flnd LnJ,::n fJ. st.-1ck and b~nt 'PHI S"I~d oul,. la l~now) 'cnUS(~i)l(~Y'(,; ',vudn't Inollr;h of lpm t;roweu an' 'iLtd a t;ra-in l.ln";ls)J) ya. l:llo....~. "Ilt.h c', thl"<lshin' rHElehine en' uh so Jus' gr'it I ("~fil out b (r.;:h)lJ '1n' r,!) "','1',1 t1rillL,S 301(1 back I f~n :m'l. ~Y~'it.y Looflflon,"Y. rhoy " \YUZ t:'d, ,nt. c1011iH'3 l)twhrd dat IVU'l. y'Ul.! ipLta. ':"iL.1lt do Lla.r::; abHshc.(\ .roc bB<:inS \,),'''.[;.8 i.-..1V"D .\'U'6 ,~ell Iln I)<>d. would \',ork for <'1, da:f/'or ['J. {'r,y eent.::-3 uh U',y-Illysc1f' 1) I ','{ould "lock n d<.:;"y flH' "1 ""pJll'tJCY'. live un I,"1ded a }Iun("-('d pound hilg~'j :111 day outa a l'rei1.jflt ea!' fo,(' ':ne qu. u"i,,.~l' ani 1U1J r::.1ad. l,a L,J..t i.I:,. So if I 1;jlO\"1 ,vhat) !}();,,' ,'J J()LL,~r is \)QY'Yl) .y'JU l~no". 'Plldy" jU:::jl clOll't ~;]Iak<'~ t,}tr~, trfC:- thi,ng thnt, [:,;3 t1i;rG> tl)~;t, ;-1tY'llcl-: llJl::~. I still" I nt:ill (~()uldn'l.. undr':f':TLnnrl. wlV~r1 L !'~ \'i]PA eom(~ Hlong nIl I Lv'r.v()oly got on LIv:, l':JPA that cuuld (In' ':m.lltnd Lo. j~nl di.dn't haIr. 0:-' lnm;,!opl( +,11C'::;1(1 j':~s l');:m on t,hr~d.r ::~hov('~l lUJn'ls m 1 tlH"W jus 1 rlcnd b(~ats"ya know~i' ~;Tell, I cnuldn''l:, unc}(':!Y'[.:r.. ,':md dnt thf~n hut yOI kno\1 nOI'i ar+/~c ['V(~ 8"t2m cl I:i,ttl' bit.. uf hOIl +,lw otll1;r half' lJ..ve~3 :,henl r'oll.;;::; jus' d:idn 1 L h'lVf::' (;nOllj,;h in the:ir iH,:,11if~3 ta do a daY's Ifod<, yil, y.no,'/ it? TI1'J.t '.'nJZ it" Lhc.,Y J'us" didn't hav(~ r:~nl'.'ul;l\ nnerf~J t.:,j do a days I!orl~ Rn I Hl-l that 'IUZ, I clJuldn I t understnod thlt not \\ ork] n I bu:''dxwss. Yrl 1TlO',{ , not rJ\d n I a Hlnn a days ':wrk for ;..1. dr-)'y:3 P3.y uh bul:. nO:1 1 \Hld(~r':1t'lfl\Jt, I c,mldn't uh" I C(iUlu.ll't u.ndc:r'st.ancl. t}l'.~ dho18, t,h'.:.~ ":h01(:> t,imr,: i'lhr"n, when L.heS st;cll"'-Led all uh, tlF~ '('pli ef':\)r the D'';!','T'p ssiOl1 Hrean '.vhJ it ,'Jhould iJr.? n1"L de c 'ulri g"':t (jut an'nh anI 1.'/'~' us t-Jonri n' to ODt nO1 Hlys''',lf J Id , 1:\1 spad:i n' rOl~ an' I IPJd a !~;;:L('d(m out :i n the h~lCk nO''l :n1' :r I d t',';t out.. Ul'."' ce ,dd tl'lnt fl"()adl n' fork nn' I I d sond~ nv t ry ~ J)c:h ote " --j t., andl:,urn it ghouL r:~~.ght :inches d.e~p turn it upsid.0. d.own in I ,-,lnntcd a I:/lrd(~n tlw~('c. AnI lid i~ro',v en<Hltil ['ood on Lhat lit'Ll l patch IlL \"Itldn't... but about e:i. ft,Y five feet ,;oidn an 1 ;;l,bou L nIl uh sevp.nty f:iv(~ ~.'cr;~t ll"nt~ ':)ut I ~ro.1fd mor'e 3t,uff on thTt.. ]jttl' 11e.tch thnn a ;"~h:ina WH.n i,'fould hclV(,~" yo knorr, 11117 Informants ~. Hlckman Clayton, Georgia Route #4 Norris C. 'Villiams Lithonia, Georgia RFD I Collector Marsha Stone 1015 Cherrywood Court, N.E. Atlanta, (:Ieorgia 3012<) Addresses A PDF transcript exists for this recording. Please contact an archivist for access. Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions. As archivists, we acknowledge our role as stewards of information, which places us inaposition to choose how individuals and organizations are represented and described in our archives. We are not neutral, andbias isreflected in our descriptions, whichmay not convey the racist or offensive aspects of collection materialsaccurately.Archivists make mistakes and might use poor judgment.We often re-use language used by the former owners and creators, which provides context but also includes bias and prejudices of the time it was created.Additionally,our work to use reparative languagewhereLibrary of Congress subject termsareinaccurate and obsolete isongoing. Kenan Research Center welcomes feedback and questions regarding our archival descriptions. If you encounter harmful, offensive, or insensitive terminology or description please let us know by emailingreference@atlantahistorycenter.com. Your comments are essential to our work to create inclusive and thoughtful description.