Roger A. Cochran interview with Ida McGhee, Flora McGhee, Curtis Green, Ruth Maner, Ruth Camp, Mrs. S.A. White, Edward Phagan, Ruby Hall, and Louise Whitman (part two)

The John Burrison Georgia Folklore Archive recordings contains unedited versions of all interviews. Some material may contain descriptions of violence, offensive language, or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. There are instances of racist language and description, particularly in regards to African Americans. These items are presented as part of the historical record. This project is a repository for the stories, accounts, and memories of those who chose to share their experiences for educational purposes. The viewpoints expressed in this project do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the Atlanta History Center or any of its officers, agents, employees, or volunteers. The Atlanta History Center makes no warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in the interviews and expressly disclaims any liability therefore. If you believe you are the copyright holder of any of the content published in this collection and do not want it publicly available, please contact the Kenan Research Center at the Atlanta History Center at 404-814-4040 or reference@atlantahistorycenter.com. This is the second of a two part recording. It starts with Louise Whitman reciting the poem Prisoner at the Bar. At 7:32-24:41 Ida McGee gives an account of the death of Mary Phagan. She claims that the Freemasons killed Leo Frank and that the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) wanted to hang Jim Conley alongside Frank because he helped dispose of Phagan's body, but the Freemasons stopped them. At 14:25, McGee incorrectly claims that Frank owned the National Pencil Factory and that Phagan was an orphan. At 22:40, McGee tells a story about a Black man who was lynched for killing a white woman in the 1930s. McGees daughter, Flora McGee, is present for the interview. Curtis Green (1917-?) was born to Horace Pinkney Green. Both worked as farmers in Marietta, Georgia. After farming, Curtis Green held a variety of jobs, including working for the Cool-Vent Metal Company and the Counter and Booth Corporation in Marietta. Ruth Manor (1894-1996) worked at the Walker Electric Company, then for almost ten years as a cook at a nursing home. Ruth Camp (1893-1971), aunt to Mary Phagan, married James Walter Camp (1889-1946) in 1941. S.A. White (1900-1984) and her cousin Edward Phagan (1880-1970) were both born in Marietta and were cousins of Mary Phagan. Ruby Hall (1901-1892) was born and lived in Marietta, Georgia. She worked at Whittier Mill and had one daughter, Louise Whitman. Ida McGhee (1897-1976) was born in Lumpkin County, Georgia, and raised in Gainesville, Georgia, with her five sisters and one brother. Around 1920, she married, moved to Virginia, and had one daughter, Flora (approximately 1928-?). She worked in a textile mill, where she served as a union steward. After the stock market crash in 1929, she quit her job and moved to Atlanta, Georgia, where she became a member of the Klu Klux Klan. AHC Oral History Cataloging Worksheet File Information Catalogue humber ~G'.>~ 1(X)~.lo.O~ Source Field* (ContentDM) Release form Yeso~ Transcript Yes or No scanned: From Yeso~ Default text: Contributed by an OR: Donated by individual: individual through <your org. name> Georgia Folklore Collection through <your org. name> Object Information Enter information about the Title (interviewee name and date of interview) : 'OOt!\ N\ LllJ0" ''<\ Co, &c l,\ ,'{\ l'-\"r'~ ,)\\,,"" ,'JA- vI.,>, ct, "w, '" Description (bio on interviewee) i,rtc, \ ; \-~(!'((.\{\ l"~, \Kt{C\ ) ('(,\<'-~(\ t':\'\ (,.,\ r\~I' ( (A"l'\~' \11\ \'1\ flo",-. V\c.C",hu.. ' ~_.<-~~"_.",. 12,)\\'\ ('(,~\\.~" 1'\( (\ ,'i\ 1 Creator (Enter either an individual's name or an organization) ~()c::,e\ """ (oc\hro!(\ C~,{,J(~'C'lje\'b, Burrison Folklore Class Collection Name (within the organization) Georgia Folklore Archives Creation Date (use only one) Exact Date (yyyy-mm-dd) Year (if only the year is known) Circa (4 digit year) Year Span From To Object Type Image_ Text Text and image _ Video and S\/d _ Sound only Media Format (VHS, reel to reel, etc Recording extent Reel-reel Hours: Minutes: ~'t CJ ':j) Derivatives Access copy: Yes or No Access copy format: Recording clip Yes or No Clip extent: ';?: Time code for clip (h:m:s) Beginning: End: ~-fiE, 35: \~ '/ I. f, ; ", C) \\ - tv\I'S lA...:) v\) ClI\~ \ l en e t ~'c;> ~ Jol'ls He G\f('I t'\\, e0Yl.\ ,(\\0,. \Ij\\\'~.e.) till, ';j-. ~AS" W'r\ i*:(1"\[1 (\ \'.00' \, F~CI I(I: o IX- 'c)j() \ \'t'U{) ill\ (Gil";<' \ {\ (jD\;,b -~h0 b~\. V\Oc\\ ,~ V\CI \\\ Notes (interview summary) 2 Recording issues (background noise, echo, static, etc.) M{,>, Itt" \>'c \c.I,,.\' IIC"'I ~,,\l "'\ 1,'M~lS.. {"""L\, (All ~\:>.N~'", chIJ,,<\ I 01, ') Tf.-.-w <t.-'s\ ?s.rJ te;,{' '\\c fU()\(),~I; '''f\t\uelt-& -Ct-- {CC\,l~'\'(.""i-\ hW\uc(\ l-'r-'~~~J Wt,LV''':, "'\\ I I, (\t, 'B\~",J (),;I<\' c' \!ii:'4V,"(' "II -II, 'r"r " ,. \ r-\ -\\.~_I,I""-'\ e.,,<-,. I... .,', -r '1-~_'bC ~ ',\:)u\t i;/_),; I\L,\ f"A~ ((",J 'If LO-Il.Z-, V-I\' '; tl",/\ Year (if only the year is known) Subject Information Enter information about the content of the object here: Subject Date Exact Date (yyyy-mm-dd) (use only one) Circa (4 digit year) Subject Who Year Span Last Name MQ..Q:hQ(>, (!;..,recn Co-l/V \ :~:) First Name ""r,,_.'(.)\I C\ c.u\,{t,,") V\ From MI {,j l) To \](\\ \ i f\u\, \[oj""i-\..n'\c\ I'" ( AHC Cataloger will complete this for you. Country State County Town' Local Name McwriC"to \) ~:)f\ (b f\; CO),\;;:, G'D !nC>J\\ \'f Subject Location Subject What (LOC subject headinos only) Keywords Personal names Burrison, John See subject who for additional names r"\c ] ell( H0.\ , I ~Rub',<. ~~~, <, Wh\Ie r~on1 :.'"l~ oui :'" e \jji\i,i (' ! ~('\Ie. ,tA'",) 7\'ItuGI'" ~, \ 3 Corporate names Geographic locations Topics 4 FoH:lore 300 Collecting Projoct Professor Burrison Fall 1968 Hoe~er A. Cochran I\':VTF. @ 5: 15 Roger A. Cochran 3101 Glen Echo Dr. S.W. Atlanta, Georgia 30311 or c/o A.B. Cochran 2761 Laurens Dr. S.W. Atlanta, Georgia 30311 Addresses I'1rs. Ida l\\cGhee !110ra /JIcGhee Ben Daniel Road Smyrna, Geore;ia Box li l l8 Route 4 Smyrna, Georgia" Curtis Green llirs. Ruth Ivianer Ben Daniel Road Smyrna, Georgia Box J+LJ9 Route 4 Smyrna, Georgia Brs. S.A. \'Illite Edlfard Phagan 351 Atlanta E1treet Marietta, Georgia Mrs. Fluby Hall Cooper Lake Road Smyrna, Georgia Mrs. Louise Whitman 843 Norcross Street, S.W. Ant. lf15 Atlanta, Georgia 11rs. [{uth Camp 197 Kinr; Road flmyrna, .Georgia Take the Access 1Iic;h1'lay (South Cobb Drive) from .1{tlanta. Turn left on Conoord Road. 1'urn right on Smyrna-I'o\\'der Sprlngs Road. 'rurn left on Gray Road. Ben Daniel Road is about 1/8 mile dOill1 and to the left. See map. See above. Talee State Highway 3 into Marietta. The highway becomes Atlanta Street. 351 is just a few blooks inside the city limits as you oome from Atlanta. Take State H~ghway 280 (the AcoeEs lIighlmy) to Cooper Lake Road. Turn right and immediately turn left. Mrs. Hall lives on the right side of the road about six houses up. The house has a 101'1 white fence around it. Coming from town tal;:e Lee Street to Gordon Rd. Right on Gordon. 'Turn right on Ashby st. at Sears. Norcross is third street on r1rht. Take State Highway 3 into Smyrna. 'Turn left on King, Best to ask at a service station just after entering the oity. Shortly after finding that F'olklore 300 required a field project I mentionsd to my parents that I needed to meet some "folkll My mother remembered an old woman she had met in Marietta, who had told her about planting "by the signs ll and offered to shoVi me where she lived. The following Saturday we drove up to Marietta and looked for her house for several hours before finding it on an almost unnoticeable dirt road not five hundred feet from a modern rwbdivision. Ben Daniel Road leads off of Gray Road and heads uphill, through the trees, for about tl,y.ee hundred rutted, bumDy feet. At the top of the hill the road levels out for a few yards and then gradually slopes dovlnward for t\VO hundred feet or so, making it 's vray past a ramshackle little heuse, and then turnine; sharply'to the left and passing in front of a neat little cottage with a low Vlhite fence. r"ifty feet beyond the cottage is a new concrete \'/ell that stands just to the s Ide of an old storage house. Then bears to the right, passing between tall shrubs and bushes that line the road for a short distance, and abruptly becomes the driveway of an old house that is set back in a grove of shade trees. ~lrs. Ida McGhee Mrs. Ida McGhee and her daughter, lnora JVlcGhee, lIve in the first little house on the left as you come down the hill. Their small two room home is lac ated between the NcGhee IS g,arden, on the left of the house, and a slightly larger Datch cultivated by their neIghbors at the bend in the road. An old well stands just to the left of theIr house. The house itself Is unpainted and has a tin roof. Inside there are t\VO rooms. The first and the 1arp~est room is a combination living room, bed room, and parlor. The second room is the kitchen. In the lIving room there are two old iron frame beds with their heads pushed up against the back wall. To the left is the door into the kitchen. To the right of the kItchen door is a narrow bookcase filled with old, very dusty, books. Looking back to the left as you enter the house you see an 01(1 pump organ currently being used as a shelf for bric -0,- brae. The organ IS bel10vm are broken l3,nd several of the stops are missing. Beyond the organ, on the front \fall, is a closet. A wood burning stoVG stands in the middle of the room and a chair and rocker are placed on eIther side of it. Nrs. NcGhee Has born in Lumpkin County, Georgia on September 8, 1897. She was raised in Gainesville, Georgia with her five sisters and one brother. Her mother \Vas principal of a school In GaInesville coming by the position by virtue of a college degree from a southern Tennessee school. Her father and an uncle owned a gold mine close by that employed over a' hundred and si.xty men .About 1920 she married and moved from GaInesville. Toward the end of the nIneteen twenties her daughter I<'lora was born. At 2 the staJ:'t of the depression she had been working for either Dan River Mills or Riverside Mills in Norfolk (?), Virginia for several years. 'Ehe plant she worked at had been unionized and she had been elected a union steward by her fellow enployees. Shortly after the stocle market craBh one of the ownerB of the plant attempted to preserve the financial lntegrity of the plant by init1atlng a " s tretch out" ByBtem whereby employees \-Tould tend more mach1neB than they had previoUsly. ThiB move was viewed by Ida and her fellow employees aB the hare-brained scheme bo a colleGe graduate who (Ud not and could not understand the complexitieB of runniDg a textile mill. As a result of the unrest created by the "stretCh out" the union called a strike. The " stretch out" system was removed but the plant management had been able to pinpo1nt strike leaders and Boon Ida WaB called into the plant manager's office and told to Bign a "yeilovi dog" contract. She refused to do so and qU1t on the spot. She and Flora returned to a small community on the border between Georgia and Tennessee where they 11ved with an ailing aunt for several years. Eventually they moved to Atlanta and then eight years ago Flora bought the house that they now live in. Mrs. lVlcGhee is an ardent Christian Scientist who does not miss any opportunity to lnject her beliefs and prejudices into the most innocuous conversation. As a Christian Scientist practitioner she haB several cures to her credit and she iB a member of the lVlother Church in Boston (FirBt Church of Christ, Bcientist, Boston). She was alBa an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. .She is very aware of contemporary events ans is full of odd bits of little lmoVl information such as the attempted assault on President Johnson by two members of congresB (\'Iho are KKK members) when the President said unwarrented things about the Klan on television!? F'lora McGhee Flora McGhee 1s an unmarried woman of about forty who has the tight, stretched, shiney sldn of a poor person who has lived too long on an almost completely starch diet. She is very quiet and frequently stays in the house while her more aSEertive mother entertains visltors on the front porch. At onetlme Flora was a "fastener" in a textile mill. A job whlch she no longer has. During one vlsit Flora asked me if I needed a job and then showed me an IRS bulletln advertising for seasonal help. The longing cmd hunger for the high paylne: jobs in the bulletin were evident in her face as she pointed out positions paying eighty to e1ghtyeight dollars a week. Durlng the winter days when the lvlcGhees have nothing to do Flora amuses herself by painting. The painting is a product of her own imagination and is not something that she has learned in a traditional manner. fJinee she cannot afford expensive drawing paper she uses whlte tablet paper to paint on and glues the flnished product to a sheet of kraft papercut from grocery baGS. The paints themselves are cheap childrens watercolors. Interviewer I \I'e,nted to ask you about when Mary Phagan Vias murdered. ~lrs. lvIcGhee In, uh, wasn't that 1913? Interviewer That sounds about right. Flora McGhee 19 what'? Mrs. McGhee 13. Interviewer Who was the governor of Georgia then? Mrs. McGhee Governor of Georgia then was, uh, wasn't it, uh uh, to best of my memory, you l{now vie wasn't allowed to vote then. Interviewer Yeah. Mrs, McGhee Course I was just, uh, going into my sixteenth year. Yeah, born in 1897 and, uh uh, seems like it was Hugh Dorsey. Interviewer Yeah, I believe thats right. JVirs, JVlcGhee And I remember, uh uh, seenig the sketches of what John Kennedy drug up history for. Intervlewer Yeah. l'1rs. JVicGhee And I remember that the governor slipped ot the jall to see, you know, totallc to Frank .. Interviewer Uh huh. Interviewer and he knew he was being watched and you know who got Frank, it was the Mason's. Interviewer You told me. What lodge was that? Mrs. McGhee Huh'? Interviewer What lodge was thati hrs. McGhee Huh'? Interviewer What lor'ge was that'! Mrs. McGhee Well, it was the general Georgia Lodve. IntervieVTer What was the uh Mrs. McGhee rJ}an I S name 'I Interviewer Uh huh. l"1arion Connor Interviewer !Viarion who? ]VIrs. McGhee Connor, Conner, died in '43. Interviewer Uh huh. That was the EPOE Lodp;e. Was that the one you said? Mrs. HcGhee I don't remember about the EPOE but I know he was a Mason. Interviewer Yeah. Mrs. ]J[cGhee And I said, well uh, Mr. Conner, I never heard of a Mason being hung. He said he wadn' t a Hasan when he destroyed a young girl. He lay down all of his word, honor and respect. Interviewer Leo Frank was a Mason then? !'Irs. McGhee Yeah, he was a Mason. But, you sec, if you go out, if you've been onct a decent respectable man, when you lay down yeur decency you become a de,wg. Intervieloler Uh huh. !VII's. l"IcGhee Now ain't that right? Interviewer How did Frank kill Mary Phagan'! Mrs. McGhee Well, she was demolished ... mingled every direJtion, disgracefully every direction. IntervieWEeI' \Vhat did he try to do with the body after he, uh .. Mrs. ~1cGl18e Oh, he uh, he left her in the pencil factory. Interviewer Uh huh. Mrs. McGhee And then this nigger come along, Conley, Jim Conley. to be a clean-up man and he found the body. He called in oh ocorse, Jum Conley got up and swore that Leo Frank via,s human being in the building, so . Interviewer Uh huh. So that condemned him don't you see. Intervie\'Ier Yeah. Mrs. jJicGhee Supposed the laH, the only And, uh, then the ILK.'s, you know, wanted to touch Conley and the Nason's said "No. You'll not touch hill!. He's told the truth. And then, uh, they was Jews every direction coming to Frank's rescue you see. So the Mason's said "Yes, but he's going. Don't make no difference how much money you got." Says "He's destroyed life, he's a,lso': uh, well, at that time when 50 Deople went in a body, the law had to stand still. Interviewer Yeah. l'lrs. jVicGhee And it was a pretty good law cause theres hardly ever a person hung unless they was guilty of something. And that's the reason why the ](, s today'is - ocourse they're not do21ing their duty, by a long shot, not doing what they're sworne to do. Intervie\ver Uh huh. Mrs NcGhe e And, uh, it's when the law won't ta,ke up decent people should take up. See, that's self-respectableness. Interviewer Yeah. Vlhere was. Leo Frank when he was hung? He was here in Marietta wasn't he? Mrs. f.1cGhee Uh huh. He was brought to the penitentiary over here. Interviewer I'Thy was he brought over here;, Mrs. JVlcGhee Well, I un, I I never did un learn that. I never did learn what was the reason they brought him out of Atlanta. Interviewer Well, '1/here did he stay while he was over here? J.tlrs. McGhee He was, he, he, he didn't stay here. Fellow says he was just brought and gone. Hung to a tree. Interviewer Uh huh. Was he in a pri son or what 'I lVlrs. JvlcGhee He, um, yeah he was in a prison. Interviewer Un huh. Mrs. JifIcGhee Wearing his white shirts and reading his books. fJupposed to be an inmate you lmow. Interviewer He was a literary type man theb? !'irs. McGhee Yeah. He was one of them coverups. Interviewer Iflhat do you mean, he ];as a coverup? Nrs. It1cGhee I'/ell, he "as ... actin - hum old acorns hi ttin house, uh . Interviewer Yeah. !-Irs. I'icGhee Dh, he apparently was nice, don't yo, see. But behind the background he was dangerous . IntervieVler Yean. , .,to be at large. He could of got her (points at interviewer's wife) just the same as poor little Mary don't ya see. But what made the Hasan' 8 80 mad, poor little I':ary Has 8 orphs,n p'irl only 14 years old. I ... Flora ]vlcGhee WorkinG for fifty dents a day. LT'G. l"lcGhee Yeah, she went to get her pay. Interviewer I didn't realize she was an orphan. Ers. McGhee Dh huh. Her father was dead. Interviewer Dh huh. IVJre. l<cGhee She was vlOrking for f'lfty cent s a clay. She went to p;et her pay. IntervieHer v/ell, \'Ias Franl, tele owner of the pencil factory or what'! lVire,. McGhee Dh huh .. Yes,h, he vms the principal owner. You lmow bacl, in them days they \1aS uh uh they had to take 8 teps like that. We didn't Mrs. McGhee con't have, well of course we don't have aw now at all. Lavis gone, to a certain extent we're gone. Can't do this, can't do that, you got to do this, you got to do that. Don't cha see. Course I hope and trust that George Wallace will go in and restore our original principals. Intervi elver Yeah. Mrs. McGhee Because uh it't not where govment could tell Flora who to sell this little place to or Miz Maner who to sell her place to or Rogers to sell his to. That's not the Fourteenth Amendment. NoVl is it? Interviewer That's right. Mrs. ])tlcGhee And uh theres some people dovm there lookin' at a lot that Miz Maner had to sell today. I didn't tell um that it uz zoned. Wouldn't let um load their trailer on it you know. Buy a lot, buy land but you can't trailer on it. Theres some doubt accordin' to the local laws but now I believe when it's carried to the Supreme books the laws on , it ain't no good. ~ Cause I had to go to a case in Atlanta, Georgia. Well the lady had been ol'min' property twelve year.. And, uh; she decided to put her up a wood fence. All up, you know, take in her entire lot. Which \'Iadn't but just a small lot. It uz on 70, I don't know if you know where 70 is or not but its close to Grant Park. Runs paranel, Oakdale runs paranel with uh Cherokee. And I lived on Oakland and this man had two real estate houses right back of Geneva. Well she had her lot surveyed and uh was uh supposed uh to uh you know uh it just taken in the garbage alley. I didn't know you could stop a garbage alley. But she did. And she made the garbage men pick up Earl's garbage from the front, you know. Go in from the front of the house to the back and then toward the back you see. And it made Earl mad. Gona make her move the fence. vie 11, he said it was a public road for 14 years. It ,'lasn' t a road, it was a alley. So uh any way they spent a lot ordinary' court. Told her she had ten days to get uh the sherrif come out there you know with a big piece of paper move that fence in ten days. Her lawyer told her, Geneva, don't you touch that fence. Said, don't you let nobody touch it. Said, that fence not gona move. And so anyway, her lawyer was a pretty good wide awake man. And, of course, GenBva is an accountist and she had money to fight Earl and Earl had money to fight Geneva. Intervi el'ler Earl who'l' !vlrs. McGhee ~0rl.Moon. Real Estate man. So anyway she uh she says uh Mrs. McGhee can't she sit stilL And it wadn' t but six ,leeks or two months or some thin lilte that she called and told me we got to go agaln. And sald my case is coming up agaln. Supreme Court. So when we went before the Supreme JUdge he dldn't even put me on the stand. He sent for the blg books from the Supreme Court office. And he read ln there and lt says uh you buy a plece of property accorcUn' to the state laws and Federal laws lt hHs yours just llke buyin' that shirt. And I can't come ln here and where your shirt. And that's the way you can't come in here and take someone else's property. But they just si. t down and let someone push em over, don't you see. Interviewer You lWOI;, talking of that, didn't FI"ank appeal his ce,se? Mrs. McGhee Oh, he appealed it several times. He lived in the jail you know for sometime. Interviewer I didrt't know that. How long was he in jail? Mrs. JYIcGhee Some tlme. I don't remember whether it was six months or a year. Anyway the Mason's walted tlll the final, you know, before they steoped in. Interviower You know, I hear hls wife didn't vlsit him much. Did you hear anything about that? Mrs. JoIcGhee I never heard of a wifel Flora ]vlcGhee Do you wrlte for a magazine'? Intorvlewer No, un un, this is somethi.ng I'm doi.ng for schooL Go to Georgia State College. Flora I\]cGhee Is that rlght. Interviewer Yeah. This is part of what I'm doing for one of the courses. ]'1rs. IllcGhee He's takin' history Flora. Flora McGhee Georgia State College. Interviewer Did you ever know if there was a picture made of the hanging, when they hung Leo Frank? Mrs. NcGhee No, I don't. But they was. Interviewer You say there was? Nil's. JvlcGhee Yeah, there was if I ain't badly mistaken. I don't know if you could find that from, er, the ,TournaI or not. Well, do you Imow if F'rank said anything before he Ims hung'? 1i.1rs. NcGhee I don't know that. I f he had a closed mouth or I'lhether he pleaded for his mercy but, uh, it was, it ',retS 1'1hat made the Mason IS mad, Nary an orphan she had no father, no brother to protect her. Fate. Interviewer What did this Jim Conley actually say about Frank? NIl's. McGhee Well, his statement was what got it. Interviewer Yeah. And, of course, the Mason's but Conley in security cause the II Jews would of liked to got ahold of .....Jim Conley. But anyway, the Nason's ha.d him in security. Interviewer Yeall. Mrs. JlicGhee Protected him in a way. Interviewer See, uh, didn't one of the governors pardon Frank, though, before he was hung', lllrs. 11cGhee Naah. No, they were talkinp: of a pardon. Interviewer Oh, I see. }:lrs. J.JlcGhee But they was uh in uh the wi.nd. IntervleHer Yeah. Mrs. McGhee In the Hind, lt wasn't uh ... But he had been in the prlson and uh for sometlme walting on trial you knOH. He had good lawyers, but he'went lnto another court, you know, claiming he dldn't get a fair trlal. And they vranted to nab old Conley, you uh, and the Kason I s said because he was black he had jlHlt as much rlght to tell the truth as Leo Franl, did. Interviewer Did you go to the trial In .. Dh uh. No, I 11ved in Galnesville, Georgla. Intervlewer Oh, I see. f,llrs. McGhee Now Hi Z !JIaner Hent to the hanging That lady dOl.om there. Intervlewer Yeah .. ]\JIrs. NcGhee NOvl, I thinl;: she went to the hanging, I net sure. I know she went to a nigger hanging. Nr Ii!. Mc Ghee con' t It was a crime that was committed over here on uh, lets see Concord goes this way, well it was on the corn9r of Concord. S88 daughter was killed by a nigger. Way back in 30 something. He was hung in Narietta. Everybody stood still. That was in 30 something af'ter John, F'ranl,lin D. Hoosevelt "as in the chair. Hoover \Vas in the chair. They asked Hoover nobody else they \Vas. Interviewer Let's see, did this colored man kill them for money or what? Mrs. McGhee He said he in in they when they told him that he he might get mercy if he would peat the right truth. Said he just had a urge to kill. Interviewer Do you know vnlat the name of the people was that were killed? Mrs. JIlcGhee No, I don't. But you'll find no black in this section no where. Interviewer vvho? Mrs. McGhee You won't find no blacks in this section. They won't even come over here to baby sit ner do housework. Course it was a uh age man and a widoW woman, his daughter was a widow. And this little boy was about nine years old. And he uh you lmOl', lived to tell the story the nigger thought he'd got him throwed him in the briar patches there. Intervie\Ver Yeah. Mrs. JVicGhee Somebody heard his screams. Goin' the road, the church road there. So he went out to see what was happening and he told him see about mama and grandpa. [llama and grandpa wesnt. It was the nigger that uh on thi s side of'the rOftd you'll see a pink house. Its a great big old timey house lotta cattle land back in there. Just down the road from !JIrc~. McGhee, vlhere Ben Daniel ROEtd turns back to the left, lives Curtis Green with his cousin Mrs. Ruth llJaner. After talldng to HI'S. i\1cGhee one day, I "lalked dovm and introduced myself to Curt1s. He was very friendly and quite willing to help Hhen I told him I \vas 1nterested in talking to people who Imew something of 11ary Phagan and Leo Franl,. ~ Curt1s Green Curtis .is more reticent about his b'.ckground than is Iv;rs. lccGhee. Althoue:h he is perfectly w111ing to anSHer questions he does not volunteer much more than he is asked for. He was qorn in a log cabin about a half mile from \vhere he lives now on April 26, 1917. He Has the only son of Mr. and Mrs. Horace Pinkney Green. His father was a farmer in Marietta and Curtis followed in his steps until 1941. Curtis has held a number of small jobs since he q~it farming but he has worked mostly in the metal trades and considers himself a metal fabricator. From time to time he has Horked as a septic tank installer. At the present tIme he is ,,'orkinp' for The Counter and Booth Corporation in Marietta earnin[" about fourteen dollars 3, day. Curtis always has a smile on his face and the smell of alcohol on his breath. He is separated from his Hife but the last time I visited him he was makine; her a Christmas present. Fr.om an old lady who lives in Marietta he had learned the art of taking a sheet of cardboard (corrugated or flat) and cutting out a design such as a heo,rt or sea shell. To thi s are glued several threo.d spindles such as are used at textile mills. Over the suindles and cardboard are glued small pieees of spaghetti, macaroni, and lasagne. The whole is covered with gold paint and is then shellacked. The device he was maldn2; for hls \'!ife Has heart shaped and Vlould be decoro,ted in the manner just described. Mrs. Huth Maner Mrs. Ruth Maner was born on March 17, 1894 in the very room in which Ive tallced. She had three brothers and two sisters of which three died in infancy. Her father was a farmer and worked much of the land that surrounds the cottage. At present Mrs. Eaner owns only a few acres of the original homesite. The rest is being developed into home sites or is drowned b'i " recently created la1\:e that bnc]{s up to the reo,r of her Tlresent property. The lake has ruj~ned one well Hnd occasionally c,mses muddy water to appear in their new concrete lined well. Mr. Maner died seventeen years ago and leers. Eaner went to \'Iork to support herself. She \'Iorl,ed for several years at the Walker Electric company and then for almost ten years 8,S a cook at a local nursing home. She quit her job as cook about five years ago and is now living on nocial Security payments and the earn1ngs of her first cousin, Curtis Green. 2 The Maner cottage consists of a kitchen, a small storage room, a living room - bed room combination where Mrs. MansI' sleeps, a bed room - stora[,e room combination where curtis sleeps, 8,nd a storage room in the rear. The cottage was built sometime between 1880 and 1894. The original construction was of rough he"~ logs with the wall sides of the logs adzed down fairly flat. The corner timbering appears to be a saddle notch. The entire exterior is covered with weather boarding so that no sign of the original log constructicm remains visible. 'rhe livine; room was sheetrocked by Curtis several years ago \~len he moved in with his cousin. 'rhe other rooma are covered with cardboard, plywood, and simj.lar materials. 'rIms the interior looks li1;e an ordinary, cheaply built sflanty until you look in the small stora~e room separating the kitchen and the living room. This storage room is about 7' x 7' and now contains innumberab1e glass jugs. The chinldng is visible and at one end a corner of the t:lmber notching ms,y be seen. Intepview vii th Cuptis Gpeen and nuth Manep 10-5-68 inside of their cottage Frank was the only Jew crucified since C"lrist. Jews said you ca~lt touch him. Fran1( slashed hi s throat \'Ii th a razor blade in j ai 1 in Atlanta" He was moved to 1\;illedgeville for safety. The Jews wanted him out. 100 cars went after him. The telephone and telegraph lines were cut. Informant's father. Pinkney Horace Greene, told him that many ye8,rs latep Eill Fpy told him he tied the knot apound Fpank's neck. They were going to hang him on Mopy's grave. She is in the City Cemetary. Planned on building a pype. Were going to cut the body to pieces. Body vms picked up by black or does he mean BIB,c1c' s) underta1cer. Hung him by standing him on top of an auto and dpiving it out from under him. Frank thou@;ht the hanging party were his friends. He sent his rings to his wife by 0 messengep boy. In '49 I worked with Mr. Carnes who had a finger for a souvenier. Stope sold much rope by saying it was pope that hung Fpank- was a hOD,x. F'pank was a Mason and was hune; by the 1\'lason 's. One man hunted dovm telephone lines in Milledgeville - Don Anderson. I"apy's body fell in a pile of nencil shavings. Frank was foiled by \\I1111e Conley. Frank was hung to prove to tie JeVis that they could be hung. Intervlewer I wonder If you could just start wlth the story of what happened to Mary Phagan from the tlme she went in to got her paychock up untill the time Leo Fra,nk was hung and then aftor taht ,,'0 'II fill in any blank spots. Curtis Green Vlell, slr, I'll be gald to give you what little information I have. Of course, most of its hearsay, you Imo~l. Interviewer Yeah. Curtis Green stuff you've heard because I was just a child at the time it happened. Intervie11'er Urn huh. Curtis Green And I understand she worked for NationHl Pencil Company in AtlHnta which some of that I vo he/1rd well enough from dlrect sources that I'm sure It's true. SilO worked for 1I a tional Pencil Com"Hny and she had Hont down to pick up her paycheck ~Ihen the murder occurred, so I understand. 1 understand that the night watchman found her out there, you k.now, lying beneath a Idnd of a catV/all, 1 would say it was, a stairway .. 1 read it was a stHir\'iaY but after walking through the old bUilding one time I noticed it was a Idnda catwallc that ':l8nt between tvlo sections of buildings but it 1'1aS inside, you might say they were two a,eparate departments, uh, two sections which were tHO stories, tbat, that's the way it was built. And there vhS only one story down here i.n the cutting room 1 sup,Jose, 1, 1 thi,nk that's what that was used for you lmow, where the pencil material '!!as cut out, and later on it \'las shipped by elevator upstairs. 1 sa.w that much on my tour of the building, i.n other \'lords 1 ,iid go through the old building ... which was unoccupied at that time except fer one wing of lt J: believe vms National Metal Stamp1ng Company, I believe had one w1ng of 1t there . dld metal fabrl~atlon, labeled role metal and I thJ.nl~ cut some role metal from b:iv sheets and rolled it, you kno\'l, or cut :it, I belleve they actually inclsloned the metal, 1 think that's tile word for' 1c whore ycu cu L i G cJ.cYm sinaller. Metal rauricatlon, they cut on tne machlne~ 1 went ~[lroi.igll t,llere ancl course I 1(n(;H CJ.UQU L tne taut tl1at \'.,Tile l':ir .. JTrank was hanged at Yrey's g1n alot of' COI;b Ce,un"t,y Ull:Lulals, nigher 1JpS of Go,_i) IJOUI1GY were involved :in the thIne;, I mean I've heard enough about it that I'm pretty well certain, that I've pretty well ascertai.ned the fact that that was true. I understand old man W:ill Frey who was sherlff of Cobb County at that t:ime tied the knot 2 Curtis Green cont. around his nec],. My dad said that he learned that direct. I don't know whether Sheriff Frey told him or not, but he learned it direct. There were many very prominent citizens around Marietta who participated in it. Some of them were very well known men around Marietta, so I understand. Interviewer Hell, how I'/as Nary murdered'! Curtis Green I actually never Ime'r. I understand it was a heavy blow to the head with some blunt instrument. And later on they found a short piece of iron pipe .... at the foot of the stairway, they called it, but I'd call it a catwalk because it was like out at the Dlace where I work it 'lent between two buildings except '!-There I vrork nOI'T there are two separate buildings but this, it were all under one roof so ... you had a two-story section here, a two-story section here then a big high roofed one-story section here so this oatwalk went between the two. Interviewer Well, what part of the bUilding was she found in? Curtis Green Dh, on the basement floor down in the shaving room I believe they referred to it as, I think, beoa.use this oat\valk went right ove[' a small bend you oould call it where the shavings from the machinery were blo\'m in there. I saw that of course at that time there were no shavings in it, they'd all been oleared out, it'd been years since it'd been a pencil factory. She was fOl'nd in the shaVing room, aotually vThat they'd oalled it, we'd oall it the dust pi t or the savV'dust roorf! you. kno'I[. Interviewer Yea. 'l/el1, what did he try to do with the body after he killed her. Curtis Green I understand he tried to move it and the nifrht Ivatohman over there oaught him, you see and he was the guy who oame along and hindered the moving effort; uh, I've forgotten his name, I sure l'lave, the night \Vatohrnan. It waS kinda C1 bedtime story "rhen I was a ohild, I mean it just oiroulated around just li.ke ... Intorviewer Yea. 3 Curtis Green .. the story of Santa Cle.us or something .. Heh, heh, it Ivent around at all times and I've heard it repeatedly time and time ae;ain e Interviewer You don't know if there was .any attempt to burn the body do you? Curtis Green Uh no, I surely do not. I underste.nd that she vras not only bludgeoned but as we should say but knocked upon the head and killed, I understand the body wf's mutilated that's ",hat I upderstand .. many places. f've understood that, I don't know, the upper portions of the body Ivere cut, the breast sections had been mutilated, that's what I understand about it. In fac t, that's what an aunt of hers told me that she viewed the body after she was killed and she 1mew that she'd been mutilated around the upper sections of the body, and .. doctors said she had been molested sexually .. Interviewer Then it \VaS Leo Frank that did this. Curtis Green Yes, I und"1's tand that, of course I've been told by people of course I'm not incrlminatin myself by saying it because I don't 1mow, it's only heresee. I understand that she'd had romantic relations wi th thi s Leo Fran1{ before thl.s haopened so I gue ss this was only a 16vers quarrel possibly, now that's my personal opinion, I wouldn't say frankly you know for pUbllcity purposes or anyway, aln't nothin upped me to say that. That's what I heard, this is only heresay so, I couldn't be quoted as saying it was true. Interviewer Oh no, wouldn't do that. Curtis Green " .hah, hah . but I heard that sir. Interviewer Last time you were talking abc,ut, uh, when this group of men 'vent down to JViilledgev:Llle to get the body and bruught it back. Could you tell me again what you sald about that 'I Curtis Green Hell, I do know that the communication lines were cut between 4 CurUs Green cont. Marietta and Jiiilledgeville, they were a number of well knovffi men Vient down there 'n see they had him in what was now known as Fulton tower in Atlanta, and they moved him to Milledgeville for fear of prison break, I mean that he, he \'!Quld be tooli: out and lynched, I mean that was the general idea, they referred to it in that day as lynch, you IWow, they figured there \'!Quld be a lynch mob, he would be took out and lynched because I thinle the girl was pretty vrell thought of around Coleb County, I mean, I think she Vias the daughter of a vlidow woman. Is tilat true? And uh -'crety well thought of. She was only 14 at the time that happened. I recall when I was just a small child seein' her. I, I saw her. She uz a beautiful girl. Very petight and pretty you lmovl, very well built girl she was a nice looldn' girl no question about that, dressed nice for a poor woman's daughter. IntervieVier Um hum. Curtis Green I thiruc she'd been Vlorking at the National Pencil Company a year possibly a year and a half before this happened. That's my understanding of it , of cours 1 don't recall Interviewer :ieah. Curtis Green She was around 12 or 13 when I remember seeing her. Of course today if she Vlere Iivin, she' would be 60 l' d S8,y or 61. Where as I'm only 51 so you can figger the difference you lwow. But I recall having saw her. I know very well where the old home place is. Over here on Smyrna-PoV/der Springs Rd. just the other side of South Cobb Drive where Smyrna-PoVider Springs crosces of course thats all been torn down and nice homes been built there you know. You know you go over Smyrna-Powder Springs, course the bridee is out there nOli you can I t go threH but I mean you 50 over you knO\f you hit Concord you know you turn back rigflt down Concord. Then Smyrna-Powder Springs maLes an ab-rupt turn to the left you lwol" there I s uh stop sign there and it was originally the second house on the rigflt ,right? Was originally the second house on the right. And I think they were rentin' the home at the time she was leilled and I think uh they had some life insurance er somethin I on her 8,nd . thru. the company I imagin' Thats about the way I figger it course you know years alSO they required you have some kind uv insurance you lmoVl. She vias probably payin' that herself and her mother got I understand several thousand dollars which that was a millionairs fortune in those days you Lnow 3 - 4 thousand dollars was. I understand she bought the home there and uh and lived there I think for a number of years, didn't she'( 5 Ruth Maner I thInk so. CurtI8 Green I'm sure 8he uz llvin' there In 1928 29 I'm oure ohe8 1IvIn' there then IntervIewer Um hum. CurtI8 Groen And I belIeve thIs murder occurred in 19 I don't actually 11:110\'1. 19 22 something like that t;! I don't ac tually kno"l the date. IntervIower Urn hum. Ruth Maner Nm'l, It \'las before that cause she \'/Uz lelll ther hung him before ;father died and he been gone 50 year. Curtis Green Yeah, I guess so. It must have happened 1820 then sor sum erlonr; ther. IntervIewer Let's see, I be1Ieve last tIme you said that uh Leo Frank tried to commit suicide. Curtis Green 011. yes, yes he slashed his throat and uh itd almost hea1ed up. I'd heard iny Dad tallc about that. See Dad knew 8.11 abeut It. In fact, I don't lmo,,1 how much he kne"l about Itt (significant look at intorvi8iver) He might of known a whole lot about it, I don't know. IntervIewer What did he use when he trIed to cut his throat? CurtIs Green Razor I understand. A straIght razor he smuggled in the prison or somebody smuggled in to him. 6 Inte:C'v1ewer Um hum. Curtis Green That happened 1n Atlanta, I th1nk before they tansferred h1m to Hllledgeville see, JIIli,lledgeville where they picked him up at, Intervlewer Yeah. Curt1s Green And uh he slashed his throat with a razor and uh they put h1m 1n a hospltal sowed 1t up you Imo~f and everyth1ng. 1'1eard my dad say i,t was just under the ch1n here. He slashed 1t all thu way across you know. They sewed it up. It uz nearly well but he. Dad said ~fhen they hanged h1m that 1t bursted open and he said tore the stitches out of it. Radyonastihm. They'd planned on when they hanged him bulldlng a funeral pyre and burnin him on Nary's grave what' I understand they'd planned to do.. and dayl1ght came and stopued 1t you knovi. they were afraid of detection. Course they could have 1n those days nobody'd stom-,ed 'em around Cobb County that's for sure, I ntervi ewer Uh Huh. Curti,s Green See, he uz the only Jew thad ever been hung that history records since Christ Ivas crucified. N the Jews said he wouldn't be hanged IntervieVier UH hum. Curtis Green And he'd they figgered get the death penalty', of course. That would have been manditory, I thinlt, you lmow for N\pe 8.nd murder I thi.nk would have been manditory bestemdy but Jews sald he wouldn't do it because he was a Jew, I guess that's the only thing I can say he was a J'e\'l and only beem one of 'em hanged of' crucified o'course they didn't refer to Christ being hanged but he \'las prop by the neck accordi.np; to history but the hands and t'le feet. He's cruclfied he was.: (looks at intervlewer for approval) Intervlewer Yeah. 7 Curtis Green .. the Jews said he'd never be hanged. I remember my daddy asay1.n' one time he lmew darn well he'd be hanged. Said they was enough whitepeople in the Dnited 8tates to see he I'laS hung. I don't know, It was all a matter of fear you know, thats all there were to 1. t you Imow. ~~ens1.on. 'rension built up and thats what it takes you know Interviewer Yeo11. Curtis Green Get a lynching started, thats for sure, its tension. I don't know but I actually knol' it did happen and I don r t actually know 1'1here he's buried. I heard Homebody say hes buried in Harietta cemetary over there in that uh thay call it the Confederate cemetary over on the left you know going UD Atlanta Road. I understand he \'ias buried there. I don't know for sure nOl, that thats true but I understand he was buried there. IntervieNer Well, did he say anything when he l"as hanged. before he was hanged', Curtis Green I don't kno\'i that he did. I heard that somebody said when they put the rope on him, I understand they put him on a horse tied a rope Ul} on a limb and run the horse out from under him. I heard that he said "Lord have mercy upon me" thats what I heard he said. Thats what my Dad said that one of the men th t were there said e said "Lord have mercy upon me". Interviewer VI1:1at happened happened to the body after he was hanged'? Curtis Green Dh, I t hanged there so I understand fer 3 hours or If. I understand that people went up and were go'ms to mutl1ate the body, ,just cut of piece and save it for soveniers. I think the law stepped in and stopped that. 'I/hich I don I t know but what they should I mean fer humanitarian reasons I den't think it necesso,ry to do a thing like that myself. I've always been very humanitarian. I don't thinlc its necessary to do a thing like tnat I mean ree;o,rdless of Wl"lO the man is. Don't, do not mutilate the body. Bury it as was what I think of it. But they cut chip out of the tree and sold them for souveniers. I know a lady over in Atlanta nON's got a chip came out of the tree, supposed to have, its about that big. Course it \'las probably cut out of >'" til?ee somewh!Vre :Ln Cobb county 8 Intervie\'I8r I thinL you told me about the rope that they hung him on. Curtis Green Yeah, and they say Anderson brothers In Harietta sold 10,000 foot of rope up there he uz hung on ha, ha, ha, ha. They say the rope Vias bought there so all the rope so all the rope tll-ey had for a month or t'dO Has part of it. lily Dad bon,o;ht a pIece 8"bout that long and I belIeve he said he gave 15~ for it,a piece a the rope, you know that hung Leo Frank. PublicIty, that uz all there were to it. Interviewer Yean" I think it was a aut 01 just.Lce. It \'laS more or less just -curneCl inLo puullcity stunt. You lmow they do stuff 11;e that even to day you know. Interviewer Urn hum. Curtis Green Come up and it happen today become more publIcity than reality you lmovi. And I think that was it. Did you ever contact !4rs. Jordan and l!irs. vrni te'! Intervie1tler I vlent by and tD,11zed to Mrs. \'111i te today and I ' m ,0;0 Lng to go by . CurtIs Green Did she gIve you any informatien? IntervieVler Well, I talked to her a {';ood little \fhile today. Curtis Green I guess she lene\.! something didn't she? Interviewer Yeah, I guess she did. 9 Curtis Green HOVI about Mr. Phagan. Have you saw him'? Interviewer I saw him too. Curtis Green He lme\'l a whole lot too, didn't he? IntervieVler He's getting up in years and he didn't have a whole lot to say. Curtis Green Oh yes I see. Interviewer Let I S see, there were sevey'al other things I wanted to ask you about. Curtis Green I'll be glad to ansViep it sir, if I knovi. Interviewer Well, I think you've probably covered most of the things that you talked about last time. Only one other thing, that I think you mentioned,or might have talked about. Did the Jews actually band to gether to try to save Frank or was it an individual effort? Ruth Maner Oh yes. Curtis Green I understand they did. Honey, you lmm1, money matters and jelly-tees and so forth I mean lawyers and so forth you know they had appointed, oh yes it was a monied matter it never did come to trial. But if it had a came to trial I gues it would a been one of the greatest trials, one of the greatest in the United states. Interviewer Urn hum. Well, Frank never was actually tried then? Curtis Green Aw, no. He was never sentenced or anything. Just Jim Cro\" 10 justice you might say. He \;as just too), out and that was it. I ntervi ewer Uh huh. Curtis Green ~~ich we have had several crimes since those times that, or since that time, I should of. said , that Jim Crow justice would of been just as legal, I think as that was. Today it's not done anymore. Interviewer Urn hum. Curtis Green I think people's got too soft far it, that's what I think .. hum, hum,hum. I ntervie\'/0r Let's see. You did mention last time that you knew somebody that had a finger of Leo Frank. Curtis Green ~no was that now? I beg your pardon. Interviewer Mr. Carnes, you said. Curtis Green Oh yeah. Urn hum, yeah, I used to work with him, he dead now. Yeah, I used to work with him over in the Cool-Vent metal arning company over in Atlanta. Yeah, he had a whole lot of information on that, fact is I think he was there, huh, huh, He never said so, nobody ever said so I don't reckon theres ever been a soul that ever said "I was there""l did something about it" but they Ivere many people who knew a whole lot about it. I talked to a cousin of mine last Sumday about the thing. He's a old man he's up in ages and he said that his dad )me,-, a \;hole lot about it. Jim l.\'Clal"dy, I saw him Sunday in Fair Oaks. He said his dad started to Atlanta, no, come back frUlli Atlanta load peddlin' stuff, he'd been there I think sold some vegetables and stuff Callie back up thar and he saw him hangin' on the tree but said he didn't stop. 0 course he, people like that were probably involved in it you know. They knew all about it. Said they were thousands of people there and he didn't stop. You can't never find a feller d stopned thats huh, huh, huh. 11 IntervieVler Well, were the Mason's involved with this? Curtis Green I understand there Vlere people of every secret order involved in it. That's what I understand . Interviewer Um hum. Do you knoVl if Frank himself was actually a member of one of these orders? Curtis Green Uh, I heard somebody say he was a active member of the Masonic order. And the Masons combined with the Jews said they'd save him from the gall0\1s. See, that was Iml in Georgia at that time hanging by the neck till you were dead you know, course now they got electrocution which I never have thought any of it was right and I don't believe in capital punishment. If you kill me or murder me if I kill you or lectrocute you I'm a murderer I've took a human life. You might shut that man up for life or for a number of years then you turn him loose give him a chance the re habilitate himself then if he goes wrong you can shut him up again that's life for you- you try if you don't make it you fall and I've always thought like that and I don't know if you take a man as dirty as I actually think Leo Frank was think he had what was comin' to him thats exactly what I think. Because if you or I went out here and killed or mutilated a little 14 year old girl I'd think we'd had anything comin' to us thats it Now if you just got the man for sexual crime I don't actually know he have to be killed I don't actually think he would have. He hadn't took human life. I've got different opinions of that, course cordin' to Georgia la1l1 get you fer statutory rape and they do 'lectrocute you for it thats true. Even kidnapping tOday under certain rules and regulations they can electrocute you for it. I don't thirue its right you haven't took human life. You agree wJ.th that'? IntervJ.ewer Sure. You lmo\1 uh, scuse me, gettJ.ng bacle to something else about Leo Frank. Have you ever heard \1here he \1aS from? Was it here from Atlanta or uh MarJ.etta? Curtis Green Hannibal, Missouri I understand. Intervie\1er Hannibal, Missouri? 12 Curtis Green Hannibill,Missouri so I understand. [Us folks uh ~lere from some Jewish section in New York I think, thats what I actually understood thru the years. I think he'd worked and established residence in Hannibal, Missouri. That's the way I understood it. Now uh about his folks residence I read that in a book I read on the life and death of Leo Frank. QUite lnteiestlllg, .LJ. YvLtcJ. 1'.1<";" 1t Ul-' .L L JU.t.fofl" l)e wor'Gll something to you. I believe you can r;et it from Clark library in Marietta thats where I got it. Interviewer Uh, Viere the Franks wealthy people or Ivere thay just ordinary folks? Curtis Green I understand his mother and dad Viere prety well fixed Jews, thats the way I understand it now. I don't know. Know they do have some Ruth Naner All the Jews are wealthy. Wesay. Curtis Green hole ha, Well, you in a Viall ha, ha take a Jel; and give 'em a dozen shoestrings and a and he' 11 bUy the building in two years, you ]mol"l. interviewer Well, lets see now, what was Fran],' s si tuation then', Did he ovm the pencil factory or did he just work there or .. Curtis Green Naw, no, naw he didn he di.dn't o~ the place. I think he uz some kind of uh subforeman I understand in the pencil factory. I thin]: he uz uh sUbforeman I actually think that he uz second in command over the crowd you might say that Mary worked for I think he uz her subforeman. I've been told that. Course whole lot of its just hearsay you know, sumin you hear'd sumers else. Whole lot of it is cause the only facts I've ever extablished that I could actually quote on my own \'lould be what I've read. And I read tViO books on it I read "The Life and Death of Leo Frank" and then I read "The Horrible Murder of Mary Phagan". An it had a lot of her roelatives names quoted in it and it uz a dOlm to earoth study. I f you can pick it up somewheroe itd be real interesting in your stUdy. \1e11, regardless of your study id be something interesting to read I mean something happened in Cobb County it wcu1d be real interesting to read. Now the "Life and Death of Leo Fran];" l' d say vms wonderful reading I thought it was @ood now, instructive, informative. I for~ot who wrote it but he had. a lot of facts there, theres no questi.on about it. He had 13 date, day and hour and everything zhernwritn. Which \Vere aoproximate dates I'd say ocourse now the day and the month . Ruth jVlaner Haner made him a bookkeeper down there when they carried him after when they carried him dovlD to Milledgeville. Curtis Green Oh yeah. Yeah he was. Interviewer Who's that? Leo Frank? Ruth M.aner Leo Frank. Curtis Green He was working, audi tin I departnlnt in Milledgeville. See, he lvaS working for the state. He wasn't even considered a prisoner you see. He wadn't even locked upl they had so much Jewish money behind him. Pri.vileged character we call I em today. Interviewer W14tat about his clothing. Was he wearin3 prison uniforms or what? Curtis Green I understand he was \,earin' blue ,jeans blue shirt when he uz hanged. I understand he had on blue denims which \"Iere not prison uniforms in those days all of it was stripes. You had the chain gang shacldes and pick hune: between their legs. I saw that I ScM those boys draggin' a pick around on a chain between their legs. Interviewer Did he have a wife, was he married? Curtis Green He had been married so I understand, had a wife and two children as I understand. Katherine I understand hi s vlife I s name. Intervievler Did she ever try to see him? Curtis Green Not that I know of. I don't realy remember reading if she ever tried to BSB him. IntBrviel~er Mrs. ~laner, what do you remember about that'! Rtlth lltaner I don't x'emember anything about his wife, only that he taken hi s rings off before they when they started to hang him and I thinlr asked 'em to carry his rings to his l,rife. I reckon he taken his rings off. And he got a boy to carry I em to h1 s wife. Interviewer Last time you said you saw the body, I believe. Ruth Maner Yeah. I saw his arm fly tlp out of the basket I"hen they crossed the spur track up at Jonesville going down to Atlanta I,i th 'em. Interviewer What were you do1ng at the t1me that you SEn'! him? Ruth Eaner We went to !!Iarietta and Vie heard that they had him up there and they'd hanged h1m. And we'd started back home. My daddy he said well they wouldn't be no use to stay up there and do i),ny tradinI and he came and vie started back home before \,!e got further down than Jonesville they was so many cars on the road till Vie had to stop. Our mule 1'!aS afra1d of cars. That uz when they fIrst come out you lmow they wadn' too many Car. But they really viaS a bunch of 'em that day I tell you. And I saw him when they carried him down to Atlanter gain' davID, they said they uz carrin' h1m tb Atlanter, when they run over the spur track why hi s arm jumped up and I sml hi s arm a,nd the basket. Interviewer Well, you were old enough to remember prety much what all happened then. c Ruth Maner Well, I don't remember too much \'Ie read the paper and ha,k the paper but I just don't remember too much about 'em everybody l-rEW talldn' about Frank I nterv1 elver Would you remember anythiD(f, the papers might have said about him at the time? Or a,nything that you had heard? 15 Ruth Haner Na . that nigger Conley was the cause, he asked tried to get the nigger Conley nigger to burn Nary's body I think and Curtis Green I heard that. Ruth Haner Come in and stopped 'em from carrin' her body and puttin' it in the furnace. Curtis Green Incenerator, yeah. Interviewer Who I-ias that that stopned him'l Iluth If;aner I think hi,s name was IJi'Conley. Curtis Green Joe M'Conley he by I belive I . Interviewer Oh. Frank was going to burn the body. Huth Maner yeah. Curtis Green He v/o.s going to put it in the inc enerator and burn it up. Huth Ivlaner He's goin' to put it in the incererator. Interviewer \<leD, , vJhat part ,lid Conley play then in the VIhole affair? Ruth !Jianer Well, he was carrin' Mary to the incenerator and, I don't know, somebody come in and stopped him and he just layed her body down. 16 Ourtis Green And then, I understand, he tried to get Conley to burn the body, help him out burnin' the body. The Negro viouldn't do it. Yeah, 1 hec1,rd that. You just refreshed my memory on that. I believe I read that. I'm sure I did, yes. Ruth l'JIaner Yeah, it Vfas in the p!:-lper. Ourtis Green That's true~ Yes. ';Ie did have the paper all of it Vias in. Curtis Green Dad cUd too. I)\lt it up there. Us,ed to l'lave it in hi s 'trunk. He foldod it up two or 3 days editlun of it, you know. Ourtis G-reen I sa\\' tIle paper had Franl,' s picture on it. Picture of him hmwing on the tree, you kno\\' , Bashears out there in Mervll1 noVi made the picture. There Bashee,rs studio in f'Iarietta on. Old man out there the only feller that used to be in Marietta that made pictures. Huth ~)Ianer Ny husbend ... Curtif] Green Just cart his little camera out there you know set up on the legs. Ruth ]vianer My husband bought on of the pic tures. He had it "hen me and him Vlere married. You could even see the gash in his neck where he . Curtis Green I saw that. Ruth Maner 17 Curtis Green Mr. Maner showed me that. Ruth ]V,aner And I!ve hunted for that picture since I saw you the first time and I haven't ever found it yet. Interviewer Appreciate your looking for it. Curtis Green How long do you suppose you'll be conducting this stUdy? For a month or two or so, Interviewer Oh, \vell, probably. Curtis Green Well, uh, she's got some stuff in there she said the other day she said she wanted me to get out of the trunk. Old trunk in there. If we happen to run ac~oss it could I call you or something? Interviewer Oh, Yeah, sure. Curtis Green Let me get your phone number, sir. Mrs. HLlth Camp Mrs. Camp was one of /JIary Phagan's aunts. She saw /JIary 's body after the murder and remembers the scene in some detail. Apparently she has been interviewed several times recently. She was hostile and protective of her memories and severe,l times admonished me to tell the truth in what ever I wrote. I had stopped by merely intending to introduce myself and return later to tape a interview. Once introduced she insisted I come in and it was only after I had been talking to her for several minutes that I realiz,ed that in her eyes this was to be our first and last talk. Mrs. Camp lives in a small four room house in Smyrna, Georgia. with an aunt who is quite palsied., The house is located close to heart of Smyrna and appears to be not over fifteen years old. 10-19-68 Interview vii th jill's. Ruth Camp (notes) liVing room of the Camn house best friend got Hary to work at pencil factory JIlary would say "I don I t like tl1e way he 1001cs at the girls. II Stepfather said she had to quit. JcI8,ry was born in Alabama. Father died a month before she was born. She had told them she was quitting. Best friend Vias to get pay for Mary. Best friend had to work that day even though a holiday. Leo Ii'rank \'/Ouldn It give her 1,lary I s money. Negro Has to burn the body. He had the fJ.re laid ,I~ut couldn I t get the body in the furnace. He drug the body into a corner. The nightHatchman discovered the body. Parade held up the trolly and made he~ late to factory. Got there a little after 12. Frank insisted on her working longer. Led her back to where she worked to see if needed material had come in. Side of her head was dented like hit Hith a hammer. I saw it. Frank knew he had to do something. He quickly laid his plans. Strangled her to death with a cord. Carried her body to the basement. Tried to appear not guilty. VIas arrested in a few days. Was a Jew from New York. Frank sentenced to the state prison farm. Jews had a sh1p rea,dy to take him a,Hay from America. Vlhen group of men from MarIetta came to get h1m he thought they were his friends. He Has brought from Milledgeville to Marietta. Tried suicide once. One of inmates almost killed h1m. Frank was a sex pervert and the man didn't like it and tried to kill him. Old soldiers set up tombstone. Man from iriLj'50 for a tombstone. Heard she already mother to arrange \,hat to do with money. Mary I sn-ame but her mother never sa\'1 any somewhere had charp;e of had one came to 8e~ Mary's Much money was raised 1n of H. A former inmate of the prj.son Imew the a,rrangements of the prison and went wi th the group. ]c]an kne\'1 a,ll the guards, lead them right to Frank. Mary was a big girl even thoup;h she was only 12 or 13. She looked like she was sixteen. Mrs. I'ihi te was born in lJiarietta about the year 1900 and has been a life long res:Ldent of the commun:Lty. She l:Lves with r1lr. Echlard IJhagan across the st.reet from the city cemetery lilhere her cousin, Mary Phagan, :Ls buried. The house is a two story ante-bellum affair of about f:Lfteen rooms that once belonged to General Clay. Though old and in need of yard work, the house :Ls still one of the more imnosing homes :Ln the community. Mr. Ifni te died about five years in an explosion at Atherton's drug store. Since that time lrs. \fhite has successfully administered the several businesses owned by Er. White at the time of his death. Edward Pha[Tan Edvlard Phagan, one of six brothers, was born in 1880 in Marietta. He is somewhat senile though this :Lmnression may be due more to his deafness than to actual deterioration of h:Ls mental faculties. He is still a larpe man and one ~ets the im~res8ion that he must have been qu:i. te imposing at the t:Lme his niece was murdered and Leo Frank was lynched. Tales circulated in the families of relatives and close friends sur;gest that he was not at home on the night that Leo lcrs.nk 11"18 lynched. Certainly he kno\'!S some of the intimate details of the lynching. Dh uh lessee . She but Frank didn't have it. down by there, she was in get her little paycheck. the rest room, raped her Ed\18J:'cl Phagan little leary's uncle on her mother's side why he just happened to be there at the tree where they broufht Leo Frank and he skinned up the tree and put the limb over the .. line over the limb ..heh heh heh Interviewer Uh huh. Well, what happened the morning that Nary Phagan went in to get her paycheck? Edward Phagan sent another little girl after her money So Nary then, she hurried and they went a hurry, zhit late. And so she run by to ~{hy, he grabbed her and carried her into and killed her Why they fought allover the room, her hair and flesh was all over the machinery where she put up a great battle for her l',.fe ... carried her down to the basement then and the nigger was to burn her body that nip:ht in the furnace but his heart failed him and when the officers came around he just told the whole thing. IV.lrs S .. A", \1111.1 te Well, Mary's mother, you know Mary's father died two months before }ilary was born so she never hada father, and a vfidovl lady with children back ir that day had a rather hard time illakin ends meet. So Aunt Fanny and the children, they worked some and they had moved to East Point and Mary was a very young girl, very young but there was no age ... liip.~far~ Phagan She was a beautiful ~ittle girl .. Mrs. S.A. White .. there was no, uh, age limit in that day, you know that you had to be sixteen or more before you cauld vfork. So she was worklnp; a little and t181ping out, but my aunt had remarried a. IIII'. Coleman and he said, "Ivlary must not work anymore, she's going to school everyday." . and she had a little money coming to her and she wanted to go get 1- t and it was, uh, 1'lemorlal Day, the 26th of April, you Imow, the Confederate l-\emorial and my grandpa Pha(';an 11-ved right down there 1-n that big old briel, house where Hr. Hunt 11ves now. And her &lster, Ollie; was already up here so she told her mother, she sald II well, I'll 80 by and get my money and catch the Hariet ta troll ey and go to grandpm!l'S , Grandpa.w Phagan's, where Ollle is. II So she went by to get it and she wasn't [';oln to work another day and ole 2 Frank had found it out that she was not gain to worle anymore and little Mary had told her mother, she says "you know Mother, I'm actually afraid to worli: there, said that man, that, that lelr. Fran]\:, says he comes through and he gust stares at me, she says it frightens me. Dh huh. JVJr.'s. S.A. White And so he murdered her right there, and her mother thought she had come on up here to IVlarietta, see, and she didn't become alarmed about it Interviewer Uh huh. liell what happened to Leo Frcmli: at the trials and later'? Well, the Jews went to his rescue and they put up money and they put up money and they tried to buy him out of that to get him out. Governor Slaton was then governor and uh, and he had accepted some of that money too on the sidelines to try to free him and try to do that and boy there was a crOlvd gathered at, uh, the uh capitol or th8 mansion one, which was it'! And they were ,just about ready to to in and get Governor Slaton and lyhch h1m. He called out the militia, heh, and finally they uh, set him and he got the asylum, and they sent him to M11ledgevilJe that he was crazy, hy wasn't, heh, heh. So a bunch of Cobb County men decided that he wasn t crazy a,nd he had treated a former, see !'lary's mother and father both \Vere born right here in Cobb County and lived here till they were grown and married. They had moved to Alabama and Mary VIaS born while they'were in Alabama' but her father died just two months before she was born. But anyway, a bunch of these people in Cobb County decided they were not e;olng to leta little e;irl be treated like that and him e;et out 11ke that. So they just went dOl'm and got him, ha, ha, ha. Interviewer I've heard some people say Leo Frank was a Mason, and it was the Masons who got hlro. Mrs. S. A. vl1.1ite I don't know anything about that. I don't thlnk so. I don't thlnk the Jews could join the Mason~, could they? Interviewer I don't know. 3 Ers. S.A. White I don't think so. Edward Phag;an I don I t ImOl'! anything about the Kasons, t'ut .. Mrs. S.A, \tIhite Never heard that before, have you? Ed\1ard Phagan but I lenow what happened to him and all about that, huah, he got justus, it was comin to him, he got it, yea ... Interviewer Vlell, what haPllened to Leo Frank \OI11i1e he \'las dO\'ln in K1:1IedgevI1Ie', and then \'I11en he was brought up here to Marietta? Ers. S. A. \fnit e \tIell, he was hanged I They put a rope aruund hIs necl, and they hung hIm. No one knows to thIs day who the men were. It \'las a secret, it's been a secret all theRe years. Not even the family knows who It was. It was Cobb County men, though. Interviewer What happened to Leo Frank's body after he was hanged? Mrs. S.A. White I suppose, I supcose ... They come and cut him down. I suppose It \'{ent bacle to hi s people in Atlanta. I'm not too positive about that. Inte~C'viewer Do you know If he had any last words to say when he was hanged? Mrs. S.A. White I think that I heard that he kept insIstin all the tIme that he was lnnocent, now that's all I remember. Isn't that rIe-ht, Papa'? Mrs. B.A. White oont. Didn't he keep tellin them that he \;as innooent, whatten that what '8d\1ard" Phagan o oourse he didn't wanta be hung Mrs. S .A. II1hi te No, of oourse nobody would want to. EcWa:ndL Phagan There was nobody that seen him do that, oommit that orime, but this, uh, nigger fireman, he knew about it .. he didn't see the orime oommitted, but .. Leo Frank. took her dovlD there and the nigger was to burn her body that night, but .... Interviewer Did he try to burn the body or did he ... ],r,rs. B.A. White No Interviewer He didn't'? JDi:l,ward, Phagan No, he dldn't. Mrs. B.A. White It was in the furnaoe, but he didn't burn it. Dld he oall lhhe polioeman himself er did how did they flnd her body in there? J1;dvrard Phat':an Ummmm, I dun'L remember muoh about the details of it. AI] I know is I was satisfied by seein Ole Frank hangin up by his neok to a tree over there. Interviewer 'l'hen he definitely was gun ty'? Mrs. S.A. Whlte Well that's what they told us, that's what the man said, he said that Leo Frank ask him to burn that body that night, but he didn't have the heart to do it and he wouldn't do it Was she 12 or 13 P8.pa, whioh one'? 5 Echlllrd Phagan I couldn't be positive about it. Mrs. S.A. White She whatten anymore than thirteen and I'm not sure that she was thirteen, but she was just about that ave. Intervie\<ler IYel], what was her job? I really don't know, she was just a, she just worked in the factory . it was a pencil. You know, Montag~s is still there, still makin stationery and pencils, and so on. She was just workin in there and maybe operatin one of the little machines that made pencils or something, I really don't know. But she wasn'tgoin to work anymore. Interviewer i'lr. Phagan, were you at the trial? JIlrs. S.A. Wl,ite Did you attend any of the trial, Papa,'? Ed\1ard Phagan Eh, I don't beJieve I did. I jus don't remember. Interviewer Where did you say Leo Frank was hanged? Edltlard Phap'an Toward Roswell yonder .. Mrs. S.A. White It's right put on Roswell street .... .Edward Phagan Frey's gin ... little patch of woods there .. Mrs. S.A. White & e .. :i. t vias .... Edvtard: Phafan . yes, it was .. I think people killed that tree by gettin souveniers off of it. 6 HI's. S.A. White That's all in business now, commercial . not a tree left. But it was just a little patch of woods on the right on out beyond where the fourlane crosses Roswell Street. It was out on the edge of to"m then, outside of the city limits bac!, in that day, it was about 19 'n, was it 19 'n 14? Yea, 19 'n 14. Interviewer These men that Ivent do"m 9nd e:ot Leo Fran!" were they organized in anyway or did they just happen to all meet together at one time? Mrs. B.A. WhHe I imagin they must' ve had it planned ... they had it planned. EdWard Phagan .. heh, heh .. they planned it all, ye s .... planned it all. Ivlrs. S.A. WhHe They cut the electricity off the night before they went in so there would be no lights . it was at night. It was about dayHght when they got bac!, here, they meant to try to get back before daylight but it was already getting daylight a,nd it Has early mornin ",hen they arr1ved bac!, with his body, with him. Interviewer Did uh, Leo Fr'an!{ try to commit suicide before he was brought back and hanged? !~rs. S.A. White I think so, I think that was right that he did .... didn't he, didn't he try, didn't he do something with ... um hum, I think so ... Mr. Hugh Dorsey was the lowyer that tried to prove that Frank, Leo Frank murdered little Mary .. and he made so many friends in Georgia bec3,use of his straight forvmrdness and because of his interest and his concern for manklnd he became governor later. He was just a young lawyer getting started . tl1 too many years after that til he was governor of Georgia. jlii<:hrsr'Gl Phagan His uh, his father's people live up there in Gainesville they !,nelv of uh, the Pha3ans up there. I'm just sorry that we don't know the story right straight through for you . 7 Interviewer Well, this has been fine ... made a miscue, but they went back and got I em. Interviewer well, they had tried to go down one time before and get him and couldn't do it? Mrs. S.A. ltlhite 'l'hats right. Things didn't work out perfect so they just waited a while and went back again and next time it all \vorked out, ju st as they had planned. Eq.wardJ, Phagan ReI Benton, he was the boy that clemb th ' tree. He was Mary's uncle on her mother's side. Mrs. B.A. White Bome of the Benton boys are in business in Atlanta now. Have some kind of trucks that haul film. Interviewer Ah huh. M.rs. B.A. White They was direct members of the little Mary's mothers. See she was a Benton. Grew up out here on Roswell Road. Interviewer Um hum. Curtis Green mentioned to me that hiE: wife's mother might have some of the; original broadsides of the; "Ballad of liJary Phag8xl" and so I called lViI's. Hall and made an appointment to see her one Saturds.y. Mrs. Ruby Hall 141'13. Hall vms born in 1901 in Marietta, Georgia on Cherokee Road. She has lived in Marietta all of her life. She has worked occasionally at Whittier I~ill where she "run drawin'" and ran "winders". She now lives with one of her sones in a sms.ll baBement apartment in the Oakdale community between Atlanta and Marietta. She seemB to be 10Bing hold of manyforIilGrly solid memories. N01'! she seems chiefly concerned with the maltreatment she received from her drunken father. Few of her reminiscenceB escape being tied in some way to the hard life she lead in her father's home. 0nfortunately 1';1'13. Hall did not have any of the broade,ides but she clid think that her daughter, l\rlrs. Loulse Vlhl tman, ml~'ht have saved s orne of the sheets. lelrs. Louise 'i'!hitman MI'E',. l,vhitman lives in a public housing project on Ashby CHreet in the \'lest End of Atlanta. She has three children; one teenage ['irl, one' boy in Idndergarten, and a two year old hlrl. By all appearances another chUd should arrive early in 1969. The apartment 113 plainly fu~nished with a minimum of furniture. A radio plays rock-a-billy and country and western music constantly. The free standing gas stove ],eeps the apartment heated to about 78 degrees Fahrenheit. Mrs.\vhltman remembers her father singing many songs to the family when whe was a youn?' girl. Apparently ma,ny of these songs came from a large record collection owned bytir. Hal1. Mrs. 'dhi tman still possesses many of the records but is not able to locate them no\'l. She writes songs of her own, apparently ballads by her description, but she has not been able to getanyene to publish them for her. Despite much coaxing she would not sing any of her father's songs to me because of her bad voice. She did agree to recite some of the songs that she remembered best, however. The recordings is ber apartment seem to have a loud background buzz or hum. After examining my recorder I decided that at least part of the hum must be due to th Gas heater since the microphone was sittlng next to the heater during the recording session. The copy of "The Bllnd Child" following the typescript is one made by Mrs. Whitman so that she \'Iould not forget the words. Interviewer 1 10-26-68 Okay, this is Mrs, Ruby Hall singing the Ballad of ~1ary Phagan, Mrs, Ruby Hall Yeah, we start noll"? Interviewer Urn hum. Mrs. Ruby Hall Little Mary Phagan she went to town one day She went to the pencil factory to get her little pay She left her home at eleven and kissed her mother goodbye Not one Mme did the poor child think that she was ~:oing to die Leo Frank he met her with a brully heart we know He smiled and said little Mary you'll not go home no more He sneaked alone behind her till she rested another room He laughed and said little Mary you've met your fatal doom IHe killed li t tIe Mary Phagan, i t \~as on one holiday ) And called for Jim Conley to carry her body away (They drug her to the basement, she uz bound both hand and feet IDown in the basement little Mary lay asleep New Lee was the \'iatchman, when he went to wound his key Down in the basement little Mary he could see He called for the off-suhs, their names I do not know They came to the pencil factory f\ayine; New Lee you must go They carried him to the jail house, they locked him in a cell fut the poor old innocent nigger knew nothing for to tell Her mother sat a weepinr;, she weeped and mourned all day And prayed to illeet her darling in a better world someday I think that itls awful to leh Ii ruh Ii long For that was the cruelest thing that Georgia ever saw Interviewer Did you sell these ballads at the trial or after the trial? Mrs, Ruby Ha,ll Sell I eill how'? Interviewer Did you sell them at the trial, during the trial or were these sold after the trial? Mrs, Ruby Hall Naw, there uz just a place in town where they wrote poetries, you know, and songs and things like that and back then it wadn't no trouble for children, you know, to get somlen like that to do. Interviewer Yeah. 2 Mrs. Ruby Hall And I used to sell news papers and thangs like that. And so me and my brother just went and got a bunch of the songs and poetries and sung 'urn. And we sawld 'em real good. Interviewer Do you remember the name of this place? Mrs. Ruby Hall No, I don't. Thats been years ago. And I don't remember 'em. Everythings changed so and I couldn't even go back to the place. If it's still there. Interviewer Do, uh, do you know who wrote the song? Did you hear who wrote it'? Ers. Ruby Hall No, l)uL my daughter said. tho that she uz still uh. Said she went through her books case. And she thought maybe that it '1ms her that had that book, you know of Mary Phagan. \'Ihole history of it. and, but she said she reckoned she must of bot it at the liberry of she had borrowed it from some of her friends. And she said she wouldn't stop until she found it and uh and then she called me then and and then I'll call you. Interviev,rer Sure thlng ... Thank you .. jvlrs. Ruby Hall And uh I told her that you Hanted to find out all about it that you could and I said I'm sure he'll take care of the book. And bring it back to me and. Interviev/er Last time you told me about selling the song on the street and your brother getting you to go across the street to a group of men. Could you tell me about that again? l-1ps. Ruby Hall Yeah. I uh I hat he said uh Ruby if you'll go over there acposs the street where that where them men is standing you'll sell, your liable to sell two or thpee of 'em, so I went on over there. I never was ashamed to butt into any thing like that invited. And I went on over there and ast 'em Hould be interested in, would they be interested in buying a song of little Mary Phagan. And, uh, he says 3 Mrs. Ruby Hall can't uh do you know, he went on and he says do you know that son" about Mary Phagan? And I says Yeah, I know it. And he says well, sang it ferus and we're liable tr, bUy all you've got. And, uh, so I stood there and sun" it for fum and they wuz drsnking. !lnd, uh, if they hadn' abeen they wouldn' a bought 'urn all. And I reckon I had about 12 or 15 left and uh so sure nuf they bought all, eva one I had. Said I sure could sang it good and but back then though I had a prettier voice than r've "at now. Int8rviewer Okay. Mrs. Whitman Ahh. Can remember is my daddy's family and the Phagan family evidently close neighbors and Daddy played with the little Phagan girl, Mary. And from what I understand thay had a 'olayhouse under a tree." Suppose in liiarietta park. And they was vrhen thi s colored man was hung, arrested him you know, taken out of the jail and drug over to the park and hung, he was hung on the one uh on a limb that hung over it. the play house that liiary Phagan had built under the tree. And ... Interviewer \VeIl, what was the man I s name'? The one that was hung. Mrs. I'/hitman Dh, Hugh Lee. HUl3h Lee. Interviewer Hugh Lee? Nrs. Whitman Dh huh. Interviewer And you say he was a c elored man'? Mrs. Whitman (Tony babble s into milIe) And uh uh \,ell even the song says you know, "the poor 01 innocent nigger knew nothin' to tell". And uh, ttlen in later years at any rate we lived in Smyner close to Ed Phagan. The chiles brother or uncle, brother I believe. And he used to visit with us. That was a great many years later, you lmOl;. And he walked up and heard me sl.nging "Little Mary Phagan" one night, on the front porch, cause I didn't realize \;ho he was exac tly and he just didn't come back any more. That's about all I ... Intervie\vsr Do you remember how she was killed? lCir s. l'>Illi tman No, uh I do know that at the time of her death they had moved to Bellwood, out on the Northwest side of Atlanta. And uh, she worked at a pencil factory and she wadn't but about eleven years old. And she had left home. they uz to be a parade in tovm and thi s is the sayin' (Tony babbles into mike again) she had left home to 2 Mre. Whitman (continued) eee the parade and to go to tee pencil factory to e:et the money that was o'd.n' to her. So they fueseed uh thai Leo Frank, I tal;:e it ,,,ae her boes, and he was under suepicion of her murder but the watchman Hugh Lee, is es you know, hung for it. Uhh, .. Interviewer Did you hear anything about the watchman being taken to Milledge~ ville or, or was he taken out of Atlanta at all? jVJrs. Vfhitman ]1]00, I don't think so. Because he \,as taken to Marietta jail ... Interviewer Yeah. Mrs. ~vh j. tman And the way Daddy told it, he was taken, a mob took him out of Marietta jail and drun' him across to the nark and hung him. Interviewer Uh huh. HO.l did this man try to dispose of Hary's body after he killed her'? Mrs. Whitman liell, all I ImoVi atout that is what I read in the book. Don't hardly remember that.really. But he did drag her to the basement. Interviewer Uh huh. HI's. Whi tman Believe she was killed and, \"lull upsteirs she had ben skradle lookin lout the Hinder, you Imolv. The winders of the buildin I down at the parade. Interviewer Uh huh. Mrs. Whl tman And she was l,illed and drug to the basement and thats where the Vlatchman found her. IntervieVier Um hum. 1 Louise Whitman .. bound train was crowed one cold December day 'l'he conduc tor shouted "tickets" in the old -time fashioned way A little girl..... sat with her head bowed low She said "I have no ticket"but then her story told My father he's in prison, he's lost his sight they say I'm [';0in , for his pardon this cold December day My mother takes in washin's to try to earn our bread My poor old dear blind father in prison almost dead lVi;j' brother and my sister will both be mighty glad If only I can bring back to them myoId blind dad The conductor did not answer or make the least reDly 'l'hen takiil' .a pocket handk:erchief he wiped the tea.rs from his eye God bless, God bless, you little one, you stay right where you are You'll never need a ticket while I am on this car Interviewer See now, that was "The East Bound Train"? Loui se \vhi tman Um hum. Interviewer What about "The Lightning Express"? Louise Whitman I'm not sure. Interviewer Care to make a stab at it? Louise Whitman The Lip;htninp: Express from the depot (telephone rings, recorder cut off). - The Lip:htning Express The Lightning Expre?s from the depot so grand had just started on its way And all the passengers on board seemed to be happy and gay Except one young man Wai t a minute. Interviewer Head bowed low'! Loui se Vlh:Ltman Let me just get it straight in my mind first. 2 IntervieVier Okay. Louise Whitman Except one young man Vlith his head bOlved 10\'/ readinp: a letter he had Was plain to be seen by the tears in his eyes the comtents of it were sad Then the conductor The darned old conductor started to take a ticket from everyone there He finally everyone there and reached the boy and promtly demanded his fare "I have DO ticket" the boy then eXDlained, "but I'll pay you back someday" "I'll put you off at the next station then" but stopped \,hen he heard the boy say "Please, 10r. Conductor, don't put me off this train. 'rhe best friend I have :tn this Vlorld :ts wait:tng for me in pain" "Expec tin' to cUe any moment, may not live through the day" "I want to kiss Momma e;oodbye, sir before God takes her away" "My mother was ailine; before I left home and needed a doctor's care" "I came to the c:t ty, employment to find but could' t find any . work there" "This mornin' a letter from sister arrIved, come home Momma's diein' it said" "And that is theresson I'm anxious to ride ein I have no ticket or fare" A little g:trl sittin' close by explained "If you nut him off it's a shame" And takin' his he.t a collection she made soon paid the boy's fare on the train "I'm obliged to you Miss for you Jdndness to me." "You're "Ielcome" said~she "never fear" Each time the conductor passed through the train these words will rang in his ear "Please Jliister Conductor,don't put me off your train. The best friend I have in this world is waitin' for me in pain" "Expec tin' to die (~,ny moment, may not last through the day" "I want to lciss momma goodbye silo before God takes her away" Interviewer Good. \'Ihat about "The Little Hosewood CaSket" '? Louise Whitman I really don't remember that one. Interviewer Don't remember that one? 3 Louise Whitman Om. I'll try for it. A jolly group of cowboys were discussin' olans at ease Says one "I'll tell you some thin ' boys if you wi 11 li,sten please" "I'm just 8. old cowboy and though I'm dressed in rae;s "I used to be a tough one and take on great big gags "But now I have a home boys, a good one as you lmow "Although I haven't seen it since very long ago "I'm goin' back to Dixie once more to see them all "I'm e;oine; to see my mother when the \'lorks all done this fall" That very night the cowboy went out to stand his guard 'rhe night was very windy and stormin' very hard The cattle all got frightened and rushed in a wild stampede He turned his beast to ston them while riding at full speed Itihile riding in the darkness then wildly did he shout He tried his best to herd them, he8.d them and turn the heard about 'ifuile riding in the darkness then wlldly did he shout He tried his best to head them and turn the heard about His saddle Dony stumbled and on the boy did fall Now he won't see hi s mother when the "Iorks all done thi s fall "Just send my mother my 'Hages, my wap;es that I've earned "l"or I \wn' t live to see her, my last year I have turned "I'm goln' to a better ranch for I hear my master call "And I won't see my mother when the works all done this fall" They lmried him at sunrise, no tombstone at his head There was nothin' but a little slab and this is what it sald "Poor Charlie dled at daybreak, hls saddle horse did fall "Now he won't see hl s mother when the Horks all done thl s f8.11" "1'hey tell me daddy that tonight you wed another bride "That you wlll hold her In you arms where my dear mother dled "They say her name is Mary too, the name my mother bore "But Daddy Is she kind am] true 11ke the one you loved before "And i,s her footstep as soft and low,:her voice as sweet and ml1d "And Daddy 1'1111 she love me too your blind and helpless chila "Oh Daddy do 'not bid me come spameet your ne1'/ made bri,de "I could not greet her in the room Ylhere my dear mothelo died 'IHer pictures hangin' on the wall, her bible's liein' there "Theres the harp her fingers touched and theres her vacant chair "The chair whereby I used to l;:neel to E,ay my evening prayer "01'1 Daddy do not bid me come I could not meet her there "N OH let me kneel down by your siele o.nd to the savior Dray "Trwt God's right hand may lead you both over Ii fe slang Heary way "And when I've cri ed myself to sleep as nON I eften do "Into my chamber softly creep my new momma and you" The prayer Nas mumbled and then she sai.d "I'm Drawing Heary nOH" t,ai.dher gently on her bed and kIssed her lovely brow And as he turn3d to leave the room one joyful ery was given He turned and caue;ht her hast sVleet smile, his blind child vias in heaven. 4 Louise Whitman They buried her by her mother's side to rest forever there And when he went to kiss his bride the was no Blind Child there The jUdge was there the jury too, and people from afar A fair young man of tender years \'las prisoner at the bar The bright courtroom \'las crowded Idth many anxious tongues A many a heart was aching for a boy accused of wrong A maiden fair I'Ti th delven hair skipped smoothly through the throng The people gazed in wonder but spoke not one word aloud Then turning to the jUdges bench one moment did she pause 'fhen smiling through her tears she said "Judge let me plead his cause Oh judge your mind must wander back to those long years gone by And see your sweetheart and yourself just as this boy and I Unless you aim to break our hearts don't say that we must part And don't forget your own sweet wife was onct your own sweetheart .... Oh judge your mind must wander bacl, those long years gone by And see your sweetheart and your self just as this boy and I I'm afraid I don't . If you have children of your own, have mercy I do pray Hemember judge you'll break my heart if you send him aliay Next sunday is our wedding day l,rhen .,. . .his wife At the altar where he'll mal,e me his deE\r lOVing vlife The jUdge rose softly from his seat the court was stillwith dead The tears was trickling down his cheek these was a silen breath I have a little girl at home ... with such pleading eyes And she's the mercy of this world . earish in her eyes The jury... they were quick to agree Someone briefly... a clerk to read "Not gUilty" was the only words the maiden heard them say Her lover helt her in his arms love always finds a way I think that's it. Interviewer That was The Brisoner at the Bar? Louise Whitman Um hum. Interviewer Okay. A PDF transcript exists for this recording. Please contact an archivist for access. Professor John Burrison founded the Atlanta Folklore Archive Project in 1967 at Georgia State University. He trained undergraduates and graduate students enrolled in his folklore curriculum to conduct oral history interviews. Students interviewed men, women, and children of various demographics in Georgia and across the southeast on crafts, storytelling, music, religion, rural life, and traditions. As archivists, we acknowledge our role as stewards of information, which places us inaposition to choose how individuals and organizations are represented and described in our archives. We are not neutral, andbias isreflected in our descriptions, whichmay not convey the racist or offensive aspects of collection materialsaccurately.Archivists make mistakes and might use poor judgment.We often re-use language used by the former owners and creators, which provides context but also includes bias and prejudices of the time it was created.Additionally,our work to use reparative languagewhereLibrary of Congress subject termsareinaccurate and obsolete isongoing. Kenan Research Center welcomes feedback and questions regarding our archival descriptions. If you encounter harmful, offensive, or insensitive terminology or description please let us know by emailingreference@atlantahistorycenter.com. Your comments are essential to our work to create inclusive and thoughtful description.