Meeting of State Programs Study Committee held in the House Chamber, State Capitol, Atlanta, Georgia, March 9, 1955: transcript of the proceedings, volume II [Mar. 9, 1955]

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"'VALTER F. BRANDENBURG
{!ou'tt cRepo'tte't
TELEPHONES ~fA... 1367-WA. 9022 ATLANTA, GEORGIA

ATE PROGRAMS STUDY CO MITTEE Held the
Hou. Chamber, State Capltol A an a~ Georgia M c 9, 195
TR.ANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEED OS
VOLUME ll.

PRESENT

Hon. Marvin Griffin

Hon. Ernest Vandive

Hon. Walter Gate

Hon. Eugen Cook

Ho Jo E. Guillebeau

Hon. E. Thrasher

Hon F a Allcor

Hon. T. V. William

Hon. Fre man Str' ck and

Hon. Howard Overby

Hon Ira

ochum on

Hon. Edg Blalock

Hon. G. N, B r

Hon. Col rt H ~ in Hon. S m J. e ch

Hon. Ben Warren

.r

K. Kendrlck

Hon. John Le Phil ip

Hon. Quimby Melton, .Jr.

Hon. Dean Staffor , Secretary

H n. Marvin Moate pr .se t in afternoon.

A B SET

n. G. E ere t Millican

Hon. enmark Groover

p_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _r

_

GOV", GRIFFI : W0 d the State rog

m !tee

come 0

d aflain wis to expre s my apprecia 'on to ou or ut in

slde you bUSt es and coming to the State Ca 'tol i the inte es 0 tht

people i bu ines of our e t commonwea tho

The Sec eta y w'l ca 1 the 0 {Ro 1 call b the Sec e ry. l

GOV GRIFF ~ Senator

Pl 8 U a :l

'b nt.

e Chair will enterta a motio t dt pense w'

the II' utes f the la t meetmg~ as t ansc 1

MR> 0 ERB : I 90 move. VOl ~E: Second

..OV ~ GRI:E FIN t seen moved and secon ed that we dis en

with the rea" ing of the in tee. e there an 0 Jection?

(No reflpo se.)

GOV~ RtF I : he Chair ars non. T e reading of t e

Min tea i iopensed with.

Is there a motion to adopt the Minutes of the last meeting as transcribed?

MR. OVERBY: So move.

MRo HAWKINS: Second.

GOVt> OR IFFI : It has be n moved a.nd secon ed t this Study Committee ncw . dopt the Mil ute of th~ 1 9t meetin as trC\n ~ribed" Is

h re o jec 1 ?

No r spo ~e

GO

FF

he Chair h ar no e " he ut of

mt'e ng ar

MR COOK. Mr Chalrman.

GOV G I FI : Att rne enera Coo.

MR COOK: I W 8 late in arisin to om in mqul 0 J. 0 Ie

tne e fine M ute a refer nc 9 mad t th Sate rog am Stud:

Committee.

dersta d the Ac a S omrnutslon; Probl m tud

Commi 1 n.

GOV n GRIFFIN: I think, unless 1 am mi taken, e ct sa IS

"Committee"l' IlGe ell

.R~ C OK: The ord "Problem" is here, i 't it?

GOV lUFF N: So l1.cbody els ut the ps udonym ' Problem"

(; this thing

MR. CO K: 1 ~a9 under the wrong lmp~ ssion. I am so ry J

ought it was ComIlli 8 ion.

GOVo GRIFF : I have c lied it a few things. myself!

MR TH ASHER: Mr. airman.

GO . IFFIN: The State Auditor.

R, T RASHE R: I would Uk to inquire whetbe r a copy f the

Min tea h:a.v been mad av ila Ie to the reS8 r prcsentatives or n t

... OV~ GRIFFIN~ Mr. Secretary?

SECRETARY STAFFORD: es, sir. OV. G ~IFFIN: The Secretary vises t e Chair that a copy of

the"'c Minute have Deen made availab e to mem er of e Press. It "s a g nuine p easure at this time p since th first item of USl-
ne n our agend . nd for this meeting, and fo 8 often as is nee sa y hereafter, a study of the Statets ducational system, ith the end in vie
f economizingp first, as far as possib e p and then making plans for a proress ive school system for a g owing State: the Chair takes pleasure in pres nting to the members of thi Committee an educationalist who has been the State Superintendent of Schools for more years than he would care to rna e pub' c; the Chair presents the Ho orable M. D. Collins, S a e Sup intende. t of Sc 0018.
DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Governor. Thank Y u, Governor; and other membe of the Committee. I am delighted to ve this rivilege and pleasure. I appreciate what the Governor aid about the time element, btl have been in this program for
53 year next July, and so I do not h s "tate to oay that 1 am interested in
pu lic achool e ucation. You know, I was thin ing a orrlent ago as I was sitting there
that back ju t a few yea 8 agop just a little more than two decades, w had tach r this State in some of our lar er, better school systems; even in 0 r metro Utan areas, willi Mas"era degrees who were teaching or "216 a ye r; $36 a mont for six months.
I remember also outs id.... of t county Beat we had children in this state jU6t ZZ years go who had th ee month Q ed cationalopportunity and n" e m nths' vac t" n. Now thatR reversed. Every child in this State now as pr.:>vi cd for him n" e m nths Q edu at"onal opportunity.

11 eve

c r le n

n' ht, do nea th Dempsey Hotel i an lortg - - he ooked so much like I did when I was his

3 ; and pern p

do - h ir stic in' up rou h t e hole in is hat; toe tickin8 out of i

ho... -- and 1 said to him: "H wold ar you?"

He said, "T irte n. II

I C?-id, ' ere do you liv ?"

e called th nam of ural county. not more than mile u

of Macon, nd gave me he name of t e county -- which I will not entio,

ju t now. I sid. "What ad are you in?"

He saidi "F'ir t grade.'

After a co vers tio he went on and othe r littl bo c

o g; a fme, 0 t tand'n oung eorgian; and I said to h'm, Wher do

you liv ?"

e aid, II Macon. "

I said. "How old a e you? II
said, II Thirte n."

I Ii, "Wha grade are yo in?"

He said, "Ei ht Grade."

here were two, 13-y ar old Georgia oye; one in the first grad

and teo her in t e eigh'l;h rade. One 0 them had not had provided for him

ed c tional - - an equal educational opportunity of the 0 .er Georgia boy

So teState Department of Education is dedicated, as I am confi-

dent you a.re t to an equal ed cat'ona opportunity to a the girls and all th boys f all Ge ~g'a, reo ar e 8 0 1 t~ e'r geography; hether they live in the

etropolit n areaa, or ut by ol-dYs Creek. or the Cro &- oa-n You know. Geor ia to ay 18 experiencing receivin mdus i 8
n unu ly rapid rate. Our outgoing Governor and our incomin , pr(: c Governor h ve both made a fine contribution in that direc ion. with the c tribution of you othe Georgians. and I think that is because they are endeavoring to ha.ve a functional educ tional program. You know. indust eS 9 some years a 0, came onl to metropolitan areas where the had an a quate educational op ortunity for the children. Today they are commg 0 rural Geor ia because e are now beginning to have a comparable edllca tional progX' In in rural Geor lao I think industry will ollow an adequatE' program of public school ucation.
I wish, now. to turn to prepared hort statement. I am deUgh e to have the opportunity of presenting this Committee the program of services a. rendered by the staff of the Department of Education. We are gla h t you have called on the Department of Education to make the fir t re ort t t is Committee_ We want you to know about the use that .s
,
bein mad"" of the S ate School Funds and any other facts or information about the State D partme t of Education, and the Georgia Public Sch 0 S program_ W. should be glad to fur ish you any inforJnation which we may have ava' ble and whic . y u may des're. I hope that you will ask questions at any time du ing this eport.
Public. elementary. and high school expenditures in Geor ia have increased {tremend u8ly in the past en years. They are still rising. U der the in-pressure of' creasing enrollments and the constant classro 1 con truction. the p esen trend costs is not likely to be reversed

within t e next decade. Es e tial school needs mu t met witho

jeopardizing additionalp local responsibilities or

peration 01 Il ic

school. I believe definitely that the schools belong to the people. and

must keep their operadon close to home. Local controlp local school

systems mll t be able and willing to exert their maximum effort both to

control co t8 and t supply funds for the operation of the schools. The

s rrender of this responsibili y to the State would reduce local school 8Y8~

tems to the level of minor administrative unitsp which 1 think would be a

mistake, The very size of the anticipated inc ease in public chool ne d

and expenditures over the next decade wit force vital deciaions on uc- Ott-

al issues thatp in a large partp have been obscured at th local level

by increasing state need for public schools. he challenge to local suprem-

acy in publ'c sclml affairs must be met by local effort and by improved

local. public iniOl mation pl'ograms 0

In facing foreseeable public ed 001 needs the greatest possible

171easure of home rule must be assured. This goal requires that the causes

and forces bas'c to rising coats ovel' the ast decade be known. School

officials can act more wisely now for he future if they know. for instance

the factors that have more than doubled operating expenditures within the

ten-year period.

In reas 'ng sc 001 enrollments exert an upward push on expen-

ditures. Additional or enlarged 'ns ruction programs result in a higher

average co t per pupil. Prolongation of the period of compulsory atten-

dance increases costs. Finally your inflationary periods, the current

d Hal" buys leas, 80 that price lev ls of themselves can lead to larger

chool expenditures. Inc e s d Dum e 0 children com t ore than 30,000 a ear -- p us instal ations g ave ta en bi. bl. e in
the ex en iture of public school education. Looking forward into the next decade g mcre sin enrollm n s
are assured. In addition, the educational trend is inclined toward the BOcalled enriched and more costly programs. The price level a pears to b reasonably 8t bles and can be di regard d cost 1'0 'ections. Howeve if t e price level were to declines it would b ar eSB influent'a, in e t t:: .... in. the school oate than rising p ice have been in prom tin hlgn
alaries in operatin c nstruc .on c ata. School pouplation: t ho d be pointed out that the ovem nt
in -- movem nt of population in Georgia is toward the u ban ce tel's. In
89 Georgia counties there is a decline in the total popul tions despite the
f ct that there is an overall increase for the State. The school population 's moving up t the rate of 309 000 children per year.
T e following tabulation indicates the increase in p bUc school enrollments dUl'ing the past decade. In 1945-46 there were 745g 892 chU! n en 011 d; w ereas p la t year there were 863 p 761 childr n enrolled. Most of the member i" is e 1'8 senior class entered school in 1943. This e I' 94, 000 children started in the firs grade, This increa e in th school population means that there must be at least 1150 additional teachers and cl ssrooms added annually.
Much of this increase has taken place in urban center of the State. The rat f' creas in schoo population will vary very largely, consistent ith the s stem. Mi ration within count'es is a so an important

1 factor in provi ing DC 01 f ci ities. The lar e increase in fOra pupil m e up the gre test resource of the State, and co stitute 0 r No. 1
pro rn. Opportunities should be provided for 11 children, regardless of
. ere hey may live. The larges enrollments are in these cate ories; H a h, e y. and P yaic 1 Education, Eng is and Social Sciences. Many general c rsee, such a General Science, Gener M thematics, have incr ased their enr llment at the expense of opec ic subJeds; such a Physics, Algebra, nd Geometry. Th outsta.nding percenta e in r aBe in e rollment were in Phys cal Educ tion, wh ch is a enerally l'e ired
Typing and Ge e al ath tics~ ec nt additio 8 to h high scn '01 curriculum inc ude course in Con ervatio , Consumer Buyin 9 Sa.fety Educat on, Driver Educatio , Home Management, Fun amentals of Electricity, a i Speakin a d Br adcast , and iversified oc up ions. S ch an mer ase in the number of and diversity of high school subjects ha an appreciable effect on the cost of pub ic chool education.
Schoo oets a e also influenced by the number of at went yea adde by increasing attendance in the hi h schools. To ay more and more childr n are finis i g high ec 01. The age at which compulsory attendance now ends has been advanced to 16 years in Georgia, and in most states it is 17. The average number of days in session for the pupil enrolled in public schools as materially mcr ased over a period of years. Georgia ha risen the past five years from the 11th grade to the 12th grade. All students rec ive e 12t_ grade before graduation.
Incidentally. Geor ia was the las state in e Unon to establish

. 12 gra ..... T e cn

n 0 eo Go

tuni Ie w kn w enable them to succes ully compete

oth r p ople th 0 g out the natio. The vel' ge d y atten e by eac

rolled p pil '8 shown as fo 10 s: In 1945-46 the number of se 001 day t

were 145. herea last y ar it was 157. Following are the total number

u ils gr duating from all high schools in this tate: 1945- 17, 340;

947 )-4 -49 it drop ed bec use of a tr tion eriod f om 11 r&d .

the 12th de. Whereas in 953-54 there were 2oS.404

f om u

hi h chool. The n ber of hi h choo grad tes re

a'd a m ment go in the period 95 -52 becau e of th . ata 1 tion th

12th grade. The recen increase i the number of hi h school raduate

and xtended l' riods of tt nd c in schoo 8 promises ub8t tially rea

cost.

A he current fioo' of the children passes through lementary

nd hi h choo f eacher- upil ratio, despite the el' ination or consol"da-

~ion of h dre s of 8m 11 choo 8. is an _enlely low pu il ratio. The

ener 1 tr d has not been to ard (jign' ican y hig er atios. This can be

part ly at i ted to

iver ity of co rses ffered in these schoo Sf and

their ub eq en d manda. T.e ave a r tio of pupil per teacher uring

.I.e lilt decade, a d exp nditure per pupil in average yearly attendance.

follow a cordin to the following schedules: In 1945-46, 25 was the ratio

of pupils-te cher; and he vera e cost per upi then a 66.94; while

1 t ye r this s m pupil-teach r ratio, instead of being 66.94, was

157.28.

Vlitl.' th pa t ' .ade of ui)li.c choo .. rope ty ba increas d

rom 97. 000, 000 0 263,' O. 000 VIne c

ted. the

p ogram now under way, wlll provlde ne c ssr oms. And t er l" ~:.e

facilitles fo mo than one-half of the chUdren ana e c 1'(; m

The cost to the State will be app ox'mately S2.00. 000, 000 Thi stat llX

penditure or buildin s w be large through the State Sch 0 uild: ~

Authority

oc chool8 sterne V mean,s 0 or; 1 bo d issues wit p 'oJ

v de new choo facilities co tin ore t n S5 .0 0.0 0,

dy the

deral 'overnme t, m these wa -

are

ave ut to the . r'1. 0

uil in' rogram $24,000. 000 This 1 a cu rent x-penditure i

$214, OO~ 000 for new hool. buildin fac' ities m Geor ia~ ves m ntB 1

9C 001 f cilit'e will be mol' t n doubled. hese n w faCUlties re de-

a ign d to accommodate the umber of Chl ren' dai y ttendance d I'm

e cool yea 1941- rather. 1951-52. Local choo1 s s ems are expected i
to pI' v'de facUities for the dditional pupU enrolled since that date. Loca

e terns a e also respon ib1e for the replacement of locall owned school

build' g which may be destroyed by fire or windstorm. School facUitie

which a e lost, or that are de the school building authority progr m. if

des royed, will be replaced by the chool buU ing authority. I am ure

that you remember that

r the July I, 1951 the State 0 Georgia d'd not

put a thin dime into the ublic school buildin pro ram of Geor i. It wa

at that time the School BuUding Authority began t functio at th rate of

$ 00 for e ch State-a loted teacher. N it takes 14r 500, 000 to meet th
needs of the School Bu' d' g Authority, and at will last over practicall

anot er 20-year peri d.

. 'he sa ar tte ecessari y

c 01 0 ra

di ure

r by year sa ar'es a c unt for to 75% .11 pera 1 g

costs. There has e a slow adjustment of salaries t risin

nationa income and pr'cca. The salaries of teachers was ma ri 11 in-

crea. ed four ears ago. However, the scale of pa has remained pretty

much the same since hat time. The State Salary chedule provides auto

ma. 1C incre e

ching experie ce up to en y a 8,

a.lso h gher p y for a ditional colle e trainin hrough e Mas to 8
o e av ra e, e utomatic inc ea e in s le amI) t to 0;, 0

bas pa Po Th~6e autornatic increases' alaries amount to $3 e 000, 00 a year. The averag salary of all teacher is as follows: In 1945-4

$106i.82. In 19 1- 1950-51, $2,0 4.21. 1941-52, $2,554.84. In 1953, 4,

2,8 3" 85. The alar for thoroughly trained teachers is s ill very muc

dequate. The cost f living bas increa ed to the pint that it wit take

$3265 to eqt al 2400 as of the date of 1946.

Some of the southe n states pay teac ers larger salaries than

Georgia. Loe 1 school official mu!tt ompete with industry as well as

other states in the empl yment of s hool p rsonne1.

The school instr' cHon rogram was retarded and restricted by

the de re sion and Wor d War II. Income fell during the depression, and

then expa i d enormously during the war years. Inflation drove up prices

L cal tax bases, such as exceas vatu of real prop rty, which u ually

supports chcols at the local lev , have responded slowly to rising levels

of income and prices. Other taxe incr ased, and new sources were tapped y t e Stat !.d 'J."e er overnn~e t. These factorc have been of c ider-

ahl importanc in pin tea i ity

() ne

county an city syste s to spend more c 1 un o

Local financial sup 0 t, and the decrease of the total, ha d cre

steadily. In 1945-46 the tate put in the public school program $1 nlil "on

Ius, hereas last year around $116 million plus. In 1945-46 he ta e ut

in 55% of the to 1 cost, and local governments 45%. That has been in-

creasing from the State, an e reasin on a local basis. In 1950- I th

State put in 66%, the local folka 34'0. In 1951-52, 71% from the State; 2 %

from local ources. Last ear the tate put 720)0, and the 1 cal ut"

o y 280/00

Let us point out some lmmedia e nee IS" our publlc

Firs and foremost is the adoption of an a e uate program of educat"on

p ovi ing for increased t acher allotments to local aS8istanc an u per

relat on of teacher salary schedules to meet changing conditions. Then,

of COU1se, we must complete the school building pro ram as rapidly as

po sible. W must wor out in eac county and city yatem a total program

of education to rovide ade uatcly for all children. The responsibility for

ev 10 ing sue a pro ram rest 1 rgely with local school officials and ay

cltize s.

Another pressing problem is better transportation. We will have

someone speak to you. in a few moments briefly on that question. We mu t

provide neceS8 ry transportation facilities for children in areas where

chool have been consolidated or reorganized under the chool building

program.

I ~0u1 ike to say here, in passing. that in those s hool systems

in GeoX"' ia9 tha consolidate schools in a count)' school sye emt except b - - it cannot be done except by the members ot the county oard 01 ed" a tion. It cannot be done on a state level. It must be done on a s stern-Wlo. level,
Voc tional education courses must be offered in all high BC OOU as a key to the occupationa opportuni.ties in the comnlunities Specializ~a trade chools should be developed in indu trial cente to eel" re 8 larger tha~ local S Btems.
You know we a. e having~ as I said a mom. t a 0 9 a ar e n lhe of industries coming to Georg;.a p a. d they wan.t to use eorg'a' ahor'; power. But they want to kn w if we will train them hrough ou voca 10 &A set-up and, i.f we can9 our own pe pIe wi! get the jobs. If not. they re likely to bring in a group of people who do not ink like you and I; would not. perhaps, believe in a free, segregated publich school program like we do. Therefore 9 I think it is tremendously important to expand our vocatio a education program in ord r to train our own folks to rna these new industries which are coming to Georgia; instruction material, including valid and CUl'l"ent data. m at be fu nished to children and teachers. Supervis ion for all r:..xceptional ch' dren m at be included in the totai school progra.m, ani that is one field that we havenDt expanded in like it should be.
Congress hag authorized funds for a three-fol expansion of vocatioI'.Al rehabilitatio al services within the next two years. We must be prepared to take advantage of the provisions of this new law for the benefit of diaablad civilians in eorgia. You wUl recognize these particular items an needs that must be rnet if we are to continue our fOrWal"d march in

n u hc L:ILl~"'" ....u.,,~~"ti
conc1 jlj 1 n it will b

r p~r 0 e to provide the necessary

inistra " e help fro teState level to cooperate with people on

t ~ oca

L._ir problem i recognizing always that

OLlr p hlie acho 1

aa being manned and con-

t"'~l e at the 1 ca f~

Than }ou.

l\i R. TH AS"'iER: vi. Chai m~;..

GOVo "RIFFIN r. Th aB. er.

MoTH ASHER: Dod , a e y l: open for a ew questions as e

go along?

DR. COLLINS: es, ai

MR. THRA HER.

t f the q 3ti DS that c me up with refer-

ence to educati n t ey lway. come back to employees mostly. ow the

reco do sho'.v in 194 that you h d "er in your departme t 219 employees.

T day '0' v 4. 7. Now thi i no rought up from a critical standpoint,

b t just to a k 0 :he que tio Ii po aible, could you streamline, or

ac iHc s me e>:pcnse of p _ratio of the State Department it the education-

al p 0 am wa f' anced? I nlC" re you ea.tisfie that you have no mor

e ployce ,110 ore e. pe se in e D partme t p than is abeol tely saent',l toe ate the Dep" rt ent?

D 0 COL" S: I am 1 d Y u rai ed tho e questions, Mr.

Tt Ito.'Jh,er. ou rl,;;me be' j at ' bc.ut the time, the date line you mentioned
tr. ~.L'~, as . n the ~cho I fo. ....e Deaf and Sc 001 for the ind came into

E : 1 ~v

ft calc ti n. 1

ve de It" t 0 ~ .divi 1 -ly. I es

pi Y s ea .. ith the D p r -

ment, 't e ,

oC L
. .tv.
D .C

r5: Yo d 110t inc 11 tho e ) S;a ' Sc ools

?

R: o .

O.

Th t

. it down to t i You know

have s

bind

r ublic

ram th State level yet

t t oug t t be 6 '0 1te.. Ju t about yea . we reor anized the St t

De a t r1ent f Ec!uc "ion nd cut from 1

s down to five; and I

honestly -- bnd I '0 ~id ay thio if I we-e un

th .. - I do not bel ieve we

a any de d 0 '1 in ~..le tate De al" 1e~

- -_ ....... ... '" ...

...... -,,~

,.

-~~-, ~~--~~ -~ --~-.

.- -..,- _. "I f.'". ,~ P..\..-...

M C) TH.R/; ... '. R: The consta

fE cat' n. Ith' w ne d ut in. the S ate is

.uper ion. Now yo:;. 1 ave two t es of up vi' on; one supervis ion

local

l\per i on 0 t of the

par ment, such al:f Area

your

LunCl:1 OOT{l

el...vie a Textban.k9 r nd tho e. ow wh t is ~ ey an ab... olutely es ential

i ncti n t y l 0
C " 0

s: I would ike to n: er that queati n this way, M

Lhras er:

en ies a d thi('tr.cc c '~ en we h either a

o .rs

we 1ad seven e sup r-

vi

a.t

If we neecle sev:n

. e'" n c.

un' red il i dollar

ri ht down to it,

quir"d l'

tel'l de t 0 Schools to vi tt

n incl e c ital on 1a '.

R" loca f",nd

so otice he ... e has een an increa e l 9, 000, 00 .

D 0 ..OLI S: Tha 's r' ht.
MRo .r IRi -lER: In ordf>r to get before the Committee, Doctor,

ased on the 'g r a at e hay co pH d - - d we wi! just lay the cards

n the t ble -

DRo C LLINS: Sl\r~o

,nC1'~.L~ER: (Co til uing -- as to t has happened: Back

945 you er pending Z7, 700, 000 on whit- at:u ent.. Well, pr sume

th th.. item, tee t f op--rating at, hac doubled. That would e

55,0 0.000. You h e pent 10,500,000 ei ce 19 5 pUl'ely on the 61 of

cr ed enr llment.

D 0 COLLINS: .And laising teache 9 9 sal ric

i ' - R 1 E : No; y ha e not r- i ed teachers' s laries very

little ab ve the econo ic rise. Yo have y apent $3,217,000 for raises

above th e 0: ic rise.

Ro COLL So Tha ri t. MRo THRASHER: Th tIs your white. That6 82,000,000. In

t ri

i group -- I w nt t po' t i out -- that w t ha

ha n i

is tha' in 945 we wer ape ding $5,000,000 0 N gro

educa.: n.

icc: lly, tha woul be 10,00 ,000, ow. We have 0 1y

he ea e

00 .ror i creased enr 11m nt, but we have d to u e

17,000, 0 of 0' cf; me ey in or er to l'

tl est ndard colored te cher

20 up c ose to the white. Now the fi u"'ee oho .. ~at in 1 45 yo were spending $78.63 on the white and $26. 79 on the colored. To ay you 30r endi g $170 on whi e a.nd 128 on colored. So you av n t yet r ache t e equal status which we are going to.
Now when these new school buildings ....roe bu' t, and he you have to put in additio a1 tran portation -- w i h is mos y for col l" peopl -that will naturally ra' se that colored item pe Cd. ita. so e 0 e. ill it not?
DR~ COLLINS: That's right. MR. THRASHER: Will that about e ~ iz the two? DR. COLLINS: I ink it will about level off equally abo \t that time. MR. THRASHER: So, as a lnatter of fac ,over 20,000, 0 f the increase in educatio i8 for that on purpose and 0 e purpose nly, of equalizing the schools. DRo COLLINS: That's right. I~m glad yo put our finger on that. Back yonder, when Georgia established its firs state t acher g salaries schedule in 1937 we said that t' e white teachers salaries, with an A. B. Degree, or MasterOa Deg ee; there was no differ ntia. There would be $80 a month for a period of seven months. And for a colored teacher, if I am not mistaken, it as 60 a month. S' ce then t e salaries have een equalized. MR. THRASHER: Doctor, lao for the benefit of the Committee: The records show that a white male teac er was making $865 a c ag both county and state mone , in 1945; today the average is 3535. A ually, you

have been get ing he enefi of wo ings. You h ve bCifm trying to get the

t achers 8 qualifications p, but yo have nly rai e:d

he ec

of cost. Here is what it has ctually cost you, though~ That in color d

teacher, from 665 to Z73; at'8 actually where your cost has been.

ORo COLLINS: That' ri ht.

MRo THRJ\SHER: You don' . think we could get a y m ney 8 ved

out of the Department of Education, then?

DR. COLL 5: I don8t thmk so. /JO, would be gla.d to. We

tried to reorganize with the idea of having more function in the 5 t De-

partment of Education,

MRo RASHE R: Has that shown re ulta yet?

DR" COLLINS: It ha shown results I think in inc1?ease eer-

Vlces; not in decre sed ma e

~ THRASHEH: Now, D c or, do y u prefer we de 1 wit

these individua depar men hea 8 when it come to tran portation, d

hinga 1 tat?

RD COLLINS: Ye. I really would. 1 ap rec'ate those ques-

tion

MR" OOK: ME'. Chairman.

GOV o RIFFIN~ Mr. -00 MRo COOK: 1 would Uk to pu it in lay language, and for the

r co d it appears that we are just before qualizing educational facUit'e ,

bot a8 to te cher qualifications, salaries, and fad itles, betwee the

1t

e ro youth of u Sta e.

s: T

r' ht.

MRn

~K NS: 1'. Cb' irm~ ~

OVo <A IFF Mr. Haw ine.

Yes, sir.

Ma~ HAWK S: he primary ur_ 0 of thi .... omn.l t e i to

study the four larger department of ~e State, in n eff rt to et rmine

whether or not eeo onlie can e effec ed. I gather fr m. your auswers to

Mr. Thrasher's quSstlons that you donQt bel ieve any economi.... can be

effected; is that rue?

DR. COLLINS: Yes; I ould say hat's true.

MR. H .WKINS: I would aho like to ask this: I wOlld ike to

as what studies ave be n a e by your Depal' ment, a if 0, w 0 ha

m de these tudies of the poss'b"litie of effect" anyeco

_8?

DR. COLLINS: I m'g t ay itJ: That four or five y ...-srs a 0 1

called th Staff toge h r and aid, ilL t& study r elve. L t' ok

ours lvee tI and we b ought in, then, r. Ha kew of Emory iv raity,

Dr. Aderhold of the Georgia Univel'si y Sy m, and Dr. Albri ht with he

Kellogg Foundation of the Peabody College at a hville~ and these, together

with some of our own Staff memb l' , 1 0 ed at urse ves very critically.

MRo WK 5: That was what y ar?

DR. COLLINS: I am n t sure, nOw, just w at year. I think. it

was around 1949 or 850; somewhe aro d there.

MRo HAWKINS: Do you have any ody nOW(l presently making

such studies?

DRn COLLINS: No; not at this mome t.

MRa HAWKINS: What are some of the things where your Depal' -

(...

,\. I

1 I

I,

..;

ment might 0 sib y ec 6 llze?

d yeu g've us the en fit of you

thinking on that?

DR, COLLINS: Yes. Yes; I think we could econom' ze b

cripp in service in every area. But I wauldnQ advise it.

MR. HAWKINS: Do you think if, for instance, you co d make

study of your transportation system, donQt you thin th e might e a

possibility of reducing expenditures there without cri.ppling services?

DR. COLLINS: Definitely; when you get ut into the field.

MR. HRASHER: Mr. G airma , Ie me inter . t j ot one

second, please, ire 1 was deal' g, in my questions, with the State De-

partment on.y. I think when we get 0 th transportation thing, there are

Bomt' questions that can be asked.

MR. AWKINS: Yes. The reason 1 propounded the~e question

to Dr" Collins is t at I thmk hat thi Comm! ee shoul ve t e benel1t 01

e 'a:nta e poin t wh' ch 1S abl to view the e tire educa ional system

nd . wanted to ask}u 1 a tl'l1s time

.OR, GOLL S: I think th mone we save on the ranaportatton

p \>gram, e have s ld often that we believe. t least a milli.on do ar

coula be save in e Georgla " hool transpo tatioD program,

MR HAWKINS: Then there is a p08sibility of some economl

DR COLLINS: ThatW9 right. Out the Held.

GO GRIFF

think, Mr. Hawkins9 the question of the

"" udltor was m e et- up 0 ~ the Department of Educa ion. You 19ht a y

a he ~ta e evel.

Yes, sil'o

24

GOV .. GRIFFl " d not the w e system of ed c::>tion ou in Georgia.
MR. HAWKINS: Yes, sir. Tha you, sir.

DR. COLLINS: Yes, ir. LT" -GOV. VANDIVER: Dr. Collins, do you thi there i a

possibility -- I noticed that on the schedule of presentatio that Mr. Hubbard will diseuse this matter and I would like to get your thinking on it,

too. Do you think there i a p08sibilty of effec g an economy in the pr -

curement of t xtbooks?

DR. COLLINS: Not the way the State Board b ys them no ,

Lieutenant-Governor. he State Bard enters into a 5-year contract, w th

the option of extendin that contract two years more, if it i to the advan-

age of e State. And talkin about t xtbook ompanie , they feel like w

ar stepping 0 em pretty ar , right now, in a king them 0 extend a

2-

contract. e s y p lces ave advanced 25 to O~ and we are

oldi g them to prices of five ea s o.

. -GO . NDIVER: I had this in mind: Do ou have a bo ro.

or committee which approve ea h textbook for use in the schoo s?

DR. ~OL S. Ye8~ ai LT. -GO , VA DIVER: Ie lt t ue that in the case 0 some subects, that you have four or five different textbooks proved?

D COLLIN: Thatl s right.

LT. -GO v VANDIVER Cou d you not effect an economy b pp ovm 0 e or two
D C LLINS: Thos tates where e have only one or

2.5 are pay' g as much for th.e sa le text ok 3.9 Geor ia is, W en th y have fOl1r or five to select fronl. No; you would 9t save any mo ey there.
LT. -GOVe VANDIVER: You mean you wOl.lldnet ave any money by purchasing the same book state-wide?
DR. COLLINS: I understand that's true. Mr. Hu bard knows more about the textbook program, I will admit, than I do; because he lives with it. He has been living with it 18 years, day and night.
LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: I will save my questions for him. MR. BYRUM: Mr. Thrasher and the Lie'.ltenant-Governor have asked some questions 1 have jotted do\..."D. and probably they have got the right answers. The procedl1re in handling textbooks, couldn't that be streamlined and do away with a lot of paper work, and save some funds? If I understand it right, that's handled by four or five different State employees, to get the books back to the schools. DRo COLLINS: That's right. MR. BYRUM: Couldnlt that be handled directly from the Principal of that school to your office, or do away with quite a bit of paper work.? DR. COLLINS: In some states itls done that way with the State subsidizing that local person, but it eventually costs more money than the way we are handling it. MR. BYRUM: I understand there are five copies made from the teachers; starts with the teachers; and then it is handled right up to your office, or some department of it.

26

DR .. COLLIN: Wil yOll ho d at q esti n for Mr. ubbard?

MR o BYRUM: Now the next uest'on is: We re liv ng' an a e

of consolidation. and can you co ol'date some of es offic 1'8, s ch as

visiting teachers d supervisor 'nstructo s?

DR" COLLINS: In some places we do.

MR, BYRUM: T at ca e done.

DR .. COLL S: Thatls right. In orne places w do. smalle

system.

MR BY UM: And as 0 the number of supervisors; could they

reduced?

DR" COLLINS: Yee. W co Id cut them all out.

1

would be adv sable.

MRo BY UM: I don~t mean cut them all out. , COLLINS: I don ~t think we ought to reduce them. I think.

ell~ tw d w o mpl thers; dditional one

RUM: he

who ar payin 0 thiS s rv e

Hew co d e a Ii

r_~ out of them. e r all

we c

qU'te ofte

ot of ellow 8

and . e onde'

'11 Y } yare not oing orne ind 0 rk. But, nyw y~ that' th que tto

anted t as

DRo OLLINS: 1m glad you asked it. If my olks are sittm

down. theyar sitting down work g~

MRl> THRASHER: r. Chairman. GOVo GRIFFI : Mr. Thrasher. MR. THRASHER: Doctor. do you have any figures av ilable as

to a d stat aid for 8 ools as to comparison of them? ou quo e

27

percentages a hil ago, b tt do ou have a y at now the re! tic hip of

local -lEo COLLINS: We can make them available.

MR. THRASHER: You donit have them no ?

GOV o GRIFF'IN: I think Dr. urcell might have t.lat .MR o THR SHE.R: All right. MRo COOK: One brief question, go' back to the basic questim

asked by Mr. Thra her re pectin the cost of operation of h Departmen

over there: You made refere ce to the fact that certain of the se expen-

ditures are done under statute and by virt e of xecu lve Orders. As a

matter of inormatio t you do understand that t i Commission ight b expectedg or mig t well reprimand repeal of statutes, and th~ r vocation o' Executive Orders If they are necessar to effe tuate economies in your de-

partm ntal opera ione :
. c INS: es.

.. R. C 0

You do unde stand th&t~

DR. OL S: es.

R. MEL

What percentage of expenditures in schoo d 0

ar ments go lor adminis ration?

D COLLINS: 1. 18'0. MRo MELTON: I noticed an item in the last budget lor $35.000
for p inting. Wha type of' em do s that include?

DR~ COLLINS: It include the Reports to he ove nor and Gener-

al Assembly. It includes bulletins on curriculum, bulletins on driver edu= cati n, teachin 0 alcohol education, and various and sundry things, like

,8

that.

MRo MELTON: But the Department does not pr t instructional

material, oe it?

ORo COLLINS: No. MR. MELTON: All of

t i purchased through stan rd text-

book concern ?

DR" COLLINS: That's r'ght.

GOV. GRIFF : Mayor Welc .

MRo WELCH: Dr. Collins, ef re I sk y u a qu

thie is a hot on --

DR. COLLINS: O. K.

MRo WELCH: Conti uing) -- I want to pre ce my remark, 0 s to sho am lnce e a. am ot tr "ng to put you on th 8 ot, because

will irst tate my po 'tion: 1937, or 1938, as rec 11. 8 Member of

th Quae, voted fo ire schoo b oks. That was' an econom'c era

t fro t ra in w ic wive toda Ln whic e er on unde'PAltand ~- aven't c

C<J8 8 bou a m 10 and -ha to two m' io doll r 0 fr e c

~ yea '. s th C LtNS: es.
MR. WELCH: hat i }Dlr posit'on as to whe er or not it 1

essential or proper that we should continue the free schoolbook p ograrnj

firs stating that I am inclined to believe that now is a good ime to do aw

vith it in view of the f ct that everybody ha money, and it bem enac ed a tim when hardly anybody had any money. What is )01r thi ing alo t a.

Z9
line? DRo COLLINS: I am lad you raised th t que tion. I will give
you my per anal opinion and exp rience. When I tau ht chao about onethird of the children had books when school opene. uring the sc 001 year another third received them. There was about a third of them that never did have any books. They would borrow around. And I have al ria" s the position you can't chop cotton without a hoe!
I would like to say one thing in connection with what Mr. Thrasher mentioned a moment ago about equalizing sal rie of egro teach s with that of white, and one reason the Negro teachers have gone up is that there is an over supply; at least a full supply; of what is considered we -trained Negro teachers; becaua perhaps none of you are old en l\ h to 1" member this, but forty or fifty years ago if your sister or mother wanted to work, there weren9t as many opportunities open comparable to that of e teaching profession, but today a white girl can get any kind of job. ne 1"1y, tha she wants. But that is still true very largely with Negroes. The teac g position is perhaps one of the most attractive openings th y can get.
MR. H/'..WKJNS: Mr. Chairman. CiOV. GRIFFIN: Mr. Hawkins. MR o HAWKINS: Back to the subject of textbooks: Have you thought f the possibility -- or what do you think of the possi ility of requiring small deposits on t xtbooks? Wouldn't that affect a savings of scme sort? DR. COLLINS: Yes; that would be a savings to the State. I would like to say this, gentlemen: -- lady and gentlemen; Mrs. Kendrick.

30

MRSo KENDRICK: Thank ou~

DRo COLLINS: (Continuhlg) -- that wh we lk ab ut at te

money and local money and federal money, -hen yo boil it rtght down it

is all local money. It comes out of the local p op CDS poc etD; whether you

spend it at hom , or wether you send it to At anta, 01" to Washin ton. It'

all local money.

MRo THRASHER: You spent $2,800,000 n text an library

books last year. Mayor Welch's question about doing away with th text-

books: What would those t xtbooks cost if the indivdual had buy them

retail ?

DR. COLLINS: I will try to quote Mr. Hubbard on that. becauge

I defe to him as knowing something about the textbook program. He has

lived with it, as I said, 18 years. According to some figures he has re-

~ent release. that the ecessary textbooks for children in the 1st to

12th grade inclusive would cost $164.64; whereas the State Board of Educa-

don bu s them now. 1 coa s em ess than $30.

MR THRASHER.- In other words, if we did away with textboo '9.

we would. a tual put additional costs on the individual,

DR. ....,OLLINS: Oh es' and it would be multiplie but m tiplied.

ot dde

MR. CA ES~ Mr. C irman.
. 00 GRIE FI Mr. Cates .

MR. CATES: Doctor, do you have an study, or have y u thought

0" making any tudy on the economies to be realized thro h this co sob a ion program?

31

DR, COLLI S: Yes

t t at oe8 right ack t e 1 cal

level, somewhat, you 1m 'Ie b cause no dy ca cons Ii ate c 01 d,is-

tric 0 xcept the local Boards of due tion.

MRo CATES: You ba e made study on 1 ?

DRo COLL 5: W ba e tho ht bout it; yes.

MRo CA ES: Does it show a. subs tial eco omy in operation

through he c 80lidatiOl of rural schoo s?

DR COLLINS: N ; it sho s an incre se cost.

MR. CATES: An increa e in eo

DR. COLLINS: That' right.

MRo CATES: But few r schools.

R, COLLINS: Thatis right.

" CA ES: 0 y ur ave all pic ure, 8 it stU an inc ease or

de r a ?

C L INS: cr ase. I wi! how ou the reason why. hat

le-

ach

uild g out there doe nUt maintain op r-

i!.tionfJ a p

e p J itor. Wh reas you bring aU those peo e in

00 p u a e a choo buUding ere that has cost 80 muc rno

uh e 0

y to m n that school, and do 80methin be id s

u t ISW 01 tome dirt; our heating pia t and other acilities. The e-

ore, it go to cost more.

The you have transpo t tio bringing thoe children in there. --

C TES: You hink, then, that that ould be a p or plac a

mie!!.

5: You cldnv I d Ut

how ou co ec Ill) Z

3

theree Walter.

GOVe GRIFFIN: Dr. Collinss for th pu pose of clar"ty -- I

believe you have the figures there -- what is t e school enrollment tod y;

1954-551

DRo COLLINS: The chool enrollment today i8$863,000 GOV. GRIFFlN: You mean pupils.

DR. COLLINS: Oh; I meant children.

GOV. GRIFFIN: 863,000 chool children today. What do you

estimate will be the enrollment d ring the fiscal year 1956-57e if you can

an wer that?

DR COLLINS: If you donD minde Governor, I will let Claude

newer thate because he has thos figures r ht at is finger-ti s. G Vo GRIFF In othe w dS 9 what I am trying to establish
i 'IS what the increase e c ear r the next f ur ears w' 1 be in the

chaol po ulat

LL 5: That' right. Ar und 30, OOOe Governor.

v

. IF

hat the ave age per capl'ta cost f r educatm

c

odaYe ithou the increase in teachers 6 salaries as 0 ro Ii ion-

e fictenc e nd all these other things; and I thought pe -

tha e ommittee, to beg n withe we can see ust what the ro leln

will be or the next four ears e prOVided that Geo gia is fortunate enou h to inc ease in population and in wealth during the next four years; but

o ly in population.

R. COLLINS: Thatia a good question. You see, a few year

had 6 -od thousand babies born in Geor ia a ear. Now e have

33

104, 00. The diff r nee

ut 1150 additio al teac ers and e ss-

room.

MRo THRASHER: At the pre ent er capi co Sv without any

changes whatever, 30,000 pupils a year will lncrease 4,120,0 0 the first

year -GOVo GRIFFIN: What is the per capita cost of edu ation now? DR. COLL S: It would be --

MRo THRAS ER: $151. 30,000 would be $4,120,000 the first year; $9,400,000 the s cond ear; $12, lOa, 000 the~hird year; and so on up.

CiOV" CiRIFFIN: Well, it 1 progres ive as we increa e in popu-

ation.

DRo COLLINS: Thati 8 right. MRo NOCHUMSO : Mr. Chairman.

Ci V. CiRlFFIN: Mr. Nochun"lson.

MRo N CHUMSON: M Chairman, 1 w d like to point out an

b ervation made by the uperintendent of ~ehool n Dalton. He said that

the birth rate in Whitfield County for the 6-year period from 1934 to 1940 a ~ 1 lives per year: and for the 6-year period between 1947 and 1953

a 92 Uv s er year. N w those are war babie who are just going into

e elementary 8 hools, and within three or four years will approachi high school age. herefore, a large burden will be placed on the high

school program to take up the great number of additional babies that were

born uring the war.

Ro COLLINS: That's right. And his figures will stand up, too. '"~S e ad i es.

e.

of Ge . ~.

1 e ed l.:a.tiO 1
t: is

GO'

Pu cell, . Ii v.,

D o e I L S: 'et'~ 1"0 -::' rce:

G

p~.;!a I: re' p es nting to y .... u

t ,A

r. ela .e Pu ce ; 'ho h

tl

I hi

lc eo-:ar ut,

i.G

C'( eEl ned; a. d t at' th re Olt b .d

f. the Depar me t

of l:d ti D 0

D

{h C

it e ; I 1

talk wi h you ut

fut e e s.

e 0 OP'PCIl:tuni. to ear Oll the

.uti.. arly.o 1 to y u . t thi tim b u e e & IJ r r ... -ent ':\ 9 ignrnenta

to e

l:lIcU[ll~ St ff o t1: re .

a -d 0
J:
w~ av
fou ati f allotme:nt
jU6t
-1

i

t

to

~ fir

it

ti

ti 0 item 10.

.he thi

"art. of

regda

d

ent . e to

1 (' co::npl' te their sl::h

6,

ac

C PI

G.
wn on a?

b .....er t

o

t
.,

1

3

f s ar

DR. P

t l ig

der the form a in tel 0 -

men I ou d '''0' tot that teacher for i school y a are allotted 0

the si of la _ r Us attendance f t t cool flYS em. On that bas i

acho 1 eyst m rough t the 5t t thi ea were entitled to 894 tea' e

th t 'Ner n ~ 11 .t.ed w'th State ftJ de at y a . 0 many 0 the yate

ha.ve loco t aeh on their own payr

pIe. we h ve la ge B}

like "t>,tlan a. h rei 40 ( r

tee c er hat h~' 'I .re enti

to Unl'l.~~r the 1 W; n we have made t ~

arne reduction p p rtionately tbr

u the State.

T e tI a aportatio ro ram in i

3, the Sta c f'mds are

110 cd n p ~ -p pit bas is, which is

the amount ,ciep d

c t populatio

un i~8 with en e lOp tion eceive

c 'v~ o.

Upt!. In counti stat hav _ parse p plU tion, they r -

e s ...a g

th de s ity goe down. An i

J8

, a d lor d

c'entific si9.

T e c 01 s stcz s may

I urn or t anSpolt -

tion,

9t Y 10,778, 0

exp d for tr nsp r

her '"

t und

o bu 8- t \ $9,055, 00. 'He ar _ allotti

t e salmc

y

~ as wa aHo t d la t year.

hie

tr" n portation, i

to

i.e here the ch oi-building pro-

"0 er are

eight r t n s stems that

iI the n . fa ... ili iea r.. the 5t: e as a e orne

the m un ! Sta.e ! s for tr. slota io. T a i

39

b ~ing djuste

t 'l i ~ ~. d these! Jnds all tterl as local st' ie

a. e complete ,

t (~a ount 0 transp rtation, the num er of 8t del't

at are transp ted, is deterrn" ed and a set formula. is u ed to o:t'1t out

t e additional a:Uotm nt there OM" each c unty is entitled to from thi~ con'b

tingent fund in tl"an9portation.

MR.

UM: Mr. Ch irman, may 1 ask a question?

G V n G I FIN: M" )11' m.

MR. BUM: I have eo e me a transportation problem. 'They

are nowtranspo t" g 1185 chi dren. Under the propos<!d plan of consoHda-

ti n which take place next yea ZI8 Now do I understand yl'U to say.. t

the county has to pay for that a d .tional t ansportation that your set-uFo

would be for 1185 . stead of Z4 5

DRo P RCELL: T is SOO, 000 is used to inc ease State aid

from 500 to 2400, or haf:ever they are entitled to. We do not provide any

State aid for t"'ansportation fo

e childre who live within a mUe and

a-half of the scno Is which they - ligible t attend. Then after ;1 local

study, t en we de ermine how rna c' ildren a eligi Ie for transporta ion.

Under the new t up we provide, _ "itional State aid for the additional num-

ber of pupilo at will be tran port

MR~ JQCHUMSQ': Hc vever, you are saying that all children

are trans orte t t e schools. 'hatVe a par of you prog am.

DRo PU CELL: T e -,:"t Ial facilities and a rangement and

management of tra eportation is .;, he local levels.

MR.

A HER:

hal man~ tha additional transportation

that is goin t come a out b CO! 1i ati n is one of e problems you are

D

t

r ;~

t esc n.al II: Be ... 0

ve :'ntJ

ad itior..al p

av to be t ;..r, 01:' , an .' a:'.'!' r

1 r:: for

t' e egro '3C 01.

M TH ASHER: M? 'h::t'r.. u'm.

. avo G IFF

T raa'

,1 THRASHER: Wh t 0" d la.~ pe to ..e Be .0 ". ,,.Lm if

...e Sta e . i We car.not e nt' u

C. 0 0 '1pe'"' 3.1 ~:

of

ge

? " t ou d h

t > ~ as ': 1

D

r -," e<>. ~

el'vces hy $

4,0 ,00.

d th t

:MR., TH A;:;HER: Wher

R. P' C I""

I

wo

,
...

IR SH

I

n.

,w uldn' ?
.... TT CE L:
. sa ar ~J t en' m.~ of teac
along the ine. e 0 d h.v t cu t

y
at m
"nlc'..nt f 'ra .~t o!" "ti.: 1

. - o ; 1
')

No; you , J f ~ ....J.

01 lSC th .a c-

if you c

. c nt'AU to use t.e s' e

Yo VI'}

tice t ere re 2o,: 7 teac era "h 3 0 teach r , i it e"'e aU r uc

{' ~ ..\

1=

o T_

In your dget yo' 1

loc 1 money. Th s -n ,because ou

t

5

.
0

Can you e 0; lao to t i9 Conunittee ho

have?

DR. PU ~CZ L: The foundat' n 0

,I' .S

ddedtohal oftheloca a ility, to pro 'd fori:~: .'\_'1~ _'P\

i 1 aves in the. an available to pay for

oc"'l 5YS em h f f ~~d '0 '<'.1 aLT
crea cd operat' g costa, a:; I me .\", .c-

f om $3 0 per c1as::l 0 l it to $4 5.

rtany of he~e . T te 8 s n a di . -.n.~l t:" .. g;' '.1

~I \ 1

thei llotment.

t

o ~l t

'0 (,,0

ns

co ch, r princp8.

y che Ie comes rom th 10 1 f as. me

t eB

ai m Stat fu.."1ds er::a e e do no

"-ler t' ..e ~ d 11 ..t I ('t.! nrt

of is c rric lum. So a pr gram the.... hen 't em" t J c..

st b pa'd f o.

T s pple

f the

local syst.m au

3 r 0 system th t d h ve a s pIe el -- the 3. of} ~e lH:;.)P .. ne t

42

u tb a

1 :.:al fw n .

ocal 8' n

b"itf i Ie f r Dl u

rich~
e c sa 0 the i ,

in rou pr gre:.. ~ an 1 ayin f r
pro am.

t co

0 T ASHER: W ud e ttel" off :. ta L il :!1 .du

t'o 1 !lyate for eorgia 0 a rea is c gis to take into CO s:tle .. ticn all

0 th money vai ab for ed c tion,

1 , 500, 000 as th t tel mo t that a..?'l be d

c , f "e t i ct d I v ,t e 1 L"1imum

fo dation progran: s coats

MR. TH ASHER: I till ask e quest[o ,

, coul w hav

ore 1" alistic u et if we took int co side a ion a t

c

a er than y 1 tUng them have --
o . PURC LL: If yo put he to 1
aga 8t the progrC\.m, in my opinion ou 0 d lnve t

oc. ili..ty

Iu

rogr

such things as kin ergarten, beca Be A 1 n a a Columbus ~:: he gra

of kindergarten for w ich there is no te id, and' we a p y h 'I" to

State aid to the foun t on program, t e our program wo Id hay 0 inclu e

such things as kin: er arten.

M 0 THRASHER: IenVt OU1' basic pro ra ,though, th e ucati

of the child on a c rt in level? In other W rd , if they

e thoa

rin e benef't COl,} dn't t at be something utside the sc 00 eya em?

DRo PURCELL: If you applied the $28,000, 00 of local fund

of course it wo d l"educe the State's part of the foundation px.) r MRo THRASHER: lam not talking about reduci. teState' rt.

43

I a talking a ut getting a r alistic budget for the basic education of this

aL.

. DR. PURCELL: Frankly -- and personally -- 1 think the total

amoun of the local effort applied to the total prog!'~-n. of education, in all

of it, it is get up in what is called an adequate program, is a. much better

pro ram than we have now; yes, sir,

MR. TH ASHER: What I am getting at: Vv'e are absorbing

4,500,000 in tho e things that mor or less the local system wants over

""nd a ve basic edt..cation; isn't th t right?

DRo PURCELL: Yes; that's tl"ue.

MR. THRASHER: Are the taxpayers called upon to contribute

to those apec:al th ngs they want on the side, 0 Si ouldnet they be required

o ay for them extra, if they W~ t then'1? For instance, you have ot a

kin _r arte in Celm us. 1 you have a Idndergart n in Colw: bue, why

shOll dn~t ou l:ave a kindergar en ill Brooks County, or SOfllewhere else?

Ar n't -ou llowi I em to usc tax money which was basically raised for

the b~s' c 1'0 ram 0'" edu.cation for "rIDge itema that are really not part of

th

i _ educat" 0 1 1'0' raIn?

DR. PURCELL: Yes, siT; all of t.e 9YSt ma have that privilege

der the present program, but Xwould like to point out under that proposal

it wo d be abso utely necessary to raise t:lis per-teacher allotment per

cu rent expe._ beyond $3 0" !t v. o,ld be imp ssible for the school sys ems

to ca r J on t eir 0 erating c sta, w en it conles to classl'ooms,
m MRo DASHER: I rea i,2.e tat; ut woul .It we be tter off if
r":.alistic ud et. so that t ~e peo le rea ize t at t ese ther th' s

44
that they We.nt are costin money every time they want to put one on? What is our responsibility? To the basic education of the child, isn't it?
DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir; and you woudl also have equalization t a g -a.f.er degree when you applied the total a.mount of local effort, than y u would at the present time with only the half of the amount of lo,al effort being applied?
Ma. THRASHER: Is there any move beL'lg made toward that? DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir. In the propooed additive the transfer in this a.rran ement is pro osed so that 20% of the total cost would be -become local ability. In other words it would take about 26, 21 millions of local funds -MR. THRASHER: Can't you do that now, without going through the ri n"larole of another adequate program? Can't you do that on an administrative procedure? DR. PURCELL: It re uires changing of the law itself. lV..R. THRASHER: Changing the present law.
n . PU Cl':;LL: Yes, air.
~I T'" R SI:E.: Th~re i n use sting u anot! er com Heated fornmla to 0"" "l" te 't, an't it a done with a 91 ght chan e in the budget?
DRo PURCELl..: Yes, sil"o MR.. HAW TS: M Chai1"man. GO'!. IFFIN: r. Hawkins. MR. HAWKINS: Dr. Purcell, in th~ budget that We have before 5, i its entirety where, or in w at itl,;;;m on the:re, would yOll suggest that economies co Id e effected?

45 DR" PURCELL: Well, I would like to answer that by saying that I know of no particular place that reductions could be made without reducing ilerviceBi, or without reducing tl"aJ1Gportation, without reducing Galarles, or withou.t reducing the number of teachers. In other words, when we cut on the amou.nt of fUl! lS, it would be necessary to cut on what the Sta.te has provided for local systems. MR. HAWKINS: Let me ask you. thii question: If you had to reduce, where wOl.lld you make economy reductions? DR" PURCELL: The only way I know we could reduce would be to cut dcwn some on the number of tea.chers, which would in turn make the local system assume that obligation, or else do without the teacher. One Guperintendellt was in the office yesterday. We talked a little about it and he said he thought in his county the thing that would help most would be to put 33 children in each room, and send the others home. He sa.id without teachers and cla3s1'ooms, that's all h could do, and he was willing to take the load as 8;1: as he could do it, and tell the others: We have no OppOIi."~ tunity for you. MRo HAWKINS: You say then you wouid start by reducing the numbe:; of te~ ChClS. What item on here would '\ ou next say could be reduced, or you would reduce, if you had to? DR. PURCELL: I know of no particular item that we can actually cut dOW1'l on.
R. HAWKINS: Perhapti somebody else can discuss it !110re in detail, but "/ha.t about tran~porta.tion?
DR. PURCEL : '.ve!l~ b.-ans ortation through the next few yea.rs

46
is going to e one of t e items that will have incl"eased costs. Now with economi t r G.gh the years I think we can get along with less money for tra.nsportation - - could get along wi.th leas money for transportation than we othe:rwise would have to have, but I don't see how we could reduce the amount that is now being expended for transportation.
MRo HAWKINS: Do you really think that the only way any economies could be effected would be to put a certain number of children in one room Wlder one teacher and send the others home?
DR o PURCELL: No, sir; I don't think. tha.t. I say that was what Superintendent Berry Floyd of Rabun County suggested yesterday aa one 801ut"on, and he authorized me to say so, if I wanted to; to use his nan'le.
MR. HAWKINS: Then you don't have any other suggestions on these othel" 15 items; is that correct?
DR. PURCELL: No, sir. I would like, if I may, to go over
them just briefly and eA'1'lain some of the ne ds wiA'h rcapect to each item. IvLR. HAWKINS: Yea, sir. GOV. GRIFFIN: One thi.."lg I would like to ask: Under this con-
solidat"on ; 1'0 :tarn our ex enecs of tral1.sportation will increase. I believe you m-de that stat"" e1:1t a while ag .
DRo PURCELL: Yes, sir. GOVo GRIFFIN: Well f our teachers and classrooms have to be a.llotted on the aais of iwe age de;;.ily attendance, do they not; 80 many pupils er tea.che .. ? DRo PURCELL: Yes, sir. GO 0 GRIFFIN: rd enf of curse, 60 lai: 'If pupils and a

7

teacher constitute a classroom.

DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir.

GOV. GRIFFIN: In this consolidation program we are going to

get finer buildings, but it is going to cost us more money. It can effectuate

savings on classroom teachers, and m::idental expenses, but we are going

to haul them longer distances, is that right?

DR. PURCELL: Thatgs right.
aov. GRIFFIN: In other words. we are going to have fewer

schools, but we won't save any money.

ORo PURCELL: One of these counties that has already moved

into new facilities related their eJl:'-'Perience this year. Just like, for exam-

pie, they are spending more for electricity and current in one month this

year under new facilities than they spent all of last year under their old

program.

MRo THRASHER: Mr. Chairman.
GOv. GRIFFIN: Mr. Thrasher.

MRo THRASHER: Hasn't the Bo...rd of Education already taken

action on t anspoltaton at a recent m~eting which will realize or cause to

be realiz $600,000 a year in transportati n? Didn8t t.."'ley take action with

r ference to payment to counties {or transp0l"tat'on?

DR. PURCELL: Yes: sir. The State Board has directed that

the allotmc:l.t for State funds for transportation be disbur3ed on the cost of

operating co ty-cwned equipment~ rath than on the total cost of all

equ' rn~ t as operatin P lva".". "1... and 'c' tlu on it. o our disbursen'lents

to e vari us cou..~tie ;;.ril

o the exp ie .ce tha. counties ~ ~e in

48

MR. THRASHER: That action of the Board, then, in the next

yea.r, will realize a savings of about $600,000.

DRo PURCELL: Yes, sir; it will take something like $600,000

in t e years ahead per year to con'lply with the provisions of the law than

it wou d otherwise take.

MRo PHILLIPS: Of this 26,797 teachers; are those actually

elaa room teachers?

DRo PURCELL: Yes, sir.

MR. PHILLIP: How ~any do you have in the field as super-

viGors, and such, that doesn8t teach a classroom?

DRo PURCELL: Well, there is an allotment for t at purpose.

It wo d ba in Item 7. We have $3,943,750, Item 7, that's used to pay

principa.ls' salaries. Itee used to pay t.'1e salaries of instructional super-

visors. OT c:. vls iting teacher., ..". nd t at fund is allotted to each of "the eya-

tem with the privil

n t:_e art of the local system of using it to aupple-

ent tcac eras salariee, or t~ co' tinue these Eervices, whichever the local

y tern thinks best.

But act 11 the 26,797 are actual classroom teachers that teach

a n1.ini urn. of f ur pe

a day. We re uire a 5 l/~-hour school day,

unless it9s an mcrg ncy h re the have lost a buildin or something. n h.a 'e to ave ou e sei; ion- o al1~ 'Ne also zoe uil"e a minimum of four

ods a .

MR, .....H J\SHER: Mr. Chi'lirm' n. 1 hat. to k

,. q e -

tions, but 1 a 1 trying to brin 0 t some points in r .fer nee to it.

t hail

"aid t - t the chool Imperintendent and t c prin-

cir.. '" of sch 0 8 ho 1d be tlu! ones t supe vise the te c ers and mplo

ee under he:nc Wh7 do you hav~ princip "a d superintenaent8 0

s ho 1 ~ and the have uperViS01"3 ever trctr? Why's it nO.-.:. L.<:03r..""r to

h ve the e super t 0 s 'h.n yo 1 have

e ple who are 8uppoa d to

thei bueiness at the h ad d o!; teachers?

DR. PURCELL: The principal of th.... l:Jchoo1 has minist a ''';:

and supervi ory' espon9ibUities. Your auperintende t 150 has the abiH

an has he e

i ility to uperv e the ehoo18. u juot as a y

other business. the c 001 syste becorn 6 rathe~ lar e; i ceo 09 nee

ary to have Bom as i tance,

atter of convenience the

Ilper n ,e den\: sua Iy as umes t ~ buslnes8 responsibi ity f the eya em~

undn, ~
d..,l"s us

bon, and othe thin a; and employs' sp~c hst
uch bettel' the elp h teach sneed mtl

want 0 say this a out upervisio: A

;,') Z years, w a e spending thou ande and thou ands and tho\lch..nde

d llar for met uctio:t.\ in the classroom, and' my way of thirJdng 1 dt

hat just a li Ie expenditur to improve the effectiveness of th t exp .n

dittl .

:timt wa. som of the beat mon y we pent.

THR 51 ER: There is the question.

h: is

iar with ct ucat~f'>n. nd your ~ D" -

nt nd nt.

't

t

o

t fl: letio t 11 i T:...y .v j st ce d d

t? They h ve to h ve the !Ie peop do it for thoe .?

0, ~ URCELL~ r. h auher, 1 think the Job is big er t ,..

ju

i,me to do. F'rank y, 1 think 'ou wi! fin n

schoo system l~. e tlanta, ~ d any aysterrl .,at has 50, 0 or nl r

te ehers g that one erson just d e 'ndt have th lme to carryon all the respon8ibilitie8 that re in e uperintendent~ ol:n:e .

In our present set-up e complet control and manag ment

of ~8e scbool vstem e in tb 1 cal 8/ tern B ar an Sup~ -~ ten-

ents, and everythin 9 directed .nto his ff\.e.

TH AS : Actual y, they are as latant to the

inten en , th n. at er t an --

D,

LL: ..

ir; aS81S an.t &upcl'intednet8, wit

'P_c al

fe

R.

~ 0 a supe inte ent c . it 0 t!' r

l 10

on8~ you ink t, t ho 1 be' oeal'. obi m

obIem. I'

at wa

hat w

en

we e on t

.!tel 1t,

salari or LIl rovld'

i lstructional unit then ,that ':I)ul e orked out itho t usin 1t

tructlCJnal purp see.

MR. nlRASHER: in 'ther worde, Ul1der the pre e t tim II a

51

to whether or ot thcyhave s ": vis 1', tIl. a a p ~le.:l f r e loca

Board., only"

DRo PURCELL: Abgo ut y:.full esponsibility f th local

Board.

MR. BLALOCK: Doctor, I have had seve

c col

8 uperintendents,t t in trying to find Gom ba is to re uc, h t the best

place to start would be just where Mr. Th ashel" tarted wi ,h you; with

the supervisors. As it zr~atter of f ct I have had five tell me that they are

not of any use to them. How many do you have now, doctor?

DR" PURCELL: The local systems employ about 61 uper-

visors; white supervisors; and 90 Negro superviso It!s n irely up to

the superintendent if he wanta th m. He can have tht:m if he \' ants to, nd

if he doesn't, he doesn't have to have it.

MR. BLALOCK: Em racing what salary each?

DR. PURCELL: The total salary would run abo t 4050 e C 0

MRo BLALOCK: Is that correct?

DR.; PURCELL: Yes.

MRo BLALOCK: I understood t ey at about aix to seven thousand.

DR o PURCELL: $3300 is the h'ghest figure n tJ e alary schedule, and $750 i the supplement. 750 added to the 3~ Taakes

$4050 is t.l).e maximum salary that's paid. If there is any alary beyond

$4050 it has to come entirely from local funds. There is no Sta e aid from

it.

MRo BLALOCK: These ten. one from e ell Congressional Dis-

trict?

52

DRo PU 8L : They are

Department f E ucati

h a-e 18

ith the tt nd nce to

see that all the teachers - - w check our payro 1. ctua ly see tha.t the

schools re in operation; 8 e how many pupil. are there. It ia very neces-

aary to have some OOy c 11 each BC 001 in each systeI'.a during t e y ar 0

MR. PHILLIPS: Mr. Cha.irman.

GOV. GRIFFIN: Mr. Phillips.

MR. PHILLIPS: Don't you think, say in a small county like min ,

where you have three or four schools; e~pecially t. small ones, where the

principal doesnOt teach the cla~s; that he should be responsible for hi

children coming to school, and things like that, and when they et to sc 001?

DRo PURCELL: I am not sure I understand the ueatio.

MRo PHILLIPS: Say our grammar school; I would say there a. e

300 students down there. If I am correct, that principal d esn9t teac.h a

class, does he?

ORo PURCELL: He can alway --

MRo PHILLIPS: Under the present set-up, they don't teach

classes, do they?

DR. PURCELL: Usually when they have ZO teachers and up, th y

do not teach, but if their schools are smaller. they usually do e ch.

MR. PHILLIPS: In my opinion, it looks like the principal would

have time to see about his ch Idren coming to school. If they did."'!.Bt c me,_

where it is congested like that, he could get those sme children to school

instead of a State supervisor or county s pcrvisor. The question is directed
the to see if we couldn't cut out som of people who are not actu.dly teaching

53

a class. It se me 0 me we hr d 1 t of c mpl intI!

et to c:.nyo e

p~yroll who do DGt ac ua ly teach.

DR" PURCELL: Well, if t e local sytern C 00 es, t ey can

elect not to employ those p ople. Th re i nothing in the present law that

make8 it mandatory that they do employ them.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Chairman.

GOV" GRIFFIN: Mr. Williams.

MRo WILLIAMS: Dr. Purce 1, if local oard f Education recommends the employment of one, two, or hree u ervis01"s in their

county, do you mean that the State Board of Educa ion, with ut any control

whatsoever, puts them on the State payroll?

DR" PURCELL: Not on the State pa roll. We allot funds, in

Item 7, to thof'e systems that elect supelvisol'S, and those th t decide not

to use them, may use the same amount of money for the teac era' salaries

and for additional teachers. In other words, it s a distribution of so much

to each system.

MR. WILLIAMS: You do let them elect, then, and then pay them

out of State funds.

DR" PURCELL: Yes, sir.

MR. WILLIAMS: One other que tiOD: When you get' to a. reduc-

tion of Yol.'\r number of schools, as I b lieve you stated 01' someone stated,

from 3300 to 1500 schools; would that Cal\Se any lessening, or could we cut

down on the number of visiting teo;; cher , or either local or state ..~ide super-

visors? Would it be pOBsible, since they would have le s than half the num-
ber of schools to visit, to cut dOVln on those any, on account of th reduction

54

he number of c 00 8?

D 0 PURCELL: Tn' er Jean'

rv'sor among the

Neg 0 5choo s was zoe uced la t e r, d

Oin ye r to

year. Many of those, whe e the 8m 11 chools are e _g co olid ted,

th Y re eUmina in . t at ty e f up rvisio., and t e

1:e in

some instances becom the princ'pal of the school. I can c'te ev ral

situations where that h 9 already occurre .

MR. WILLIA~: Has that c used us a :y reduction in the ex-

penditure -- I mean the 0 erall expendltul'e -- 0 i it eing increa ed in

other places?

ORo PURCELL: Under our pres nt 0 cy we still - lot the same

amount of mone to that systeI:!:l, b -t they use that money for teachers

salaries rather t1 for that purpose. That's by E cutive Or er of the

Governor. They have that opportunity.

MRo HAWKINS: Mr. Chairman, in connection wit th' etlen

raised by Mr. Phillips and Mr. Williams, what do }POU thinlt abCJut he

possibility of the repeal of the compulsory attendance law?

DR. PURCELL: I think it would be unwis I think, really, ,

that as time passes we will want to increase t e corepul ory attendance.

When other states, like California, have 18 years for the -- as the period

for attendance in scho I, and rilany others; you know Georgian. over a

period of years, haven t had too much educ tion. Our F era census

showe 0 r total population, 25 years of age and up, ve 7. 8 years of

schooling, and as we step that up as the average on t e part of our total

population, we mak~ them able to bet er use o~ own re ource3; we make

55

hem ett pao.. le, ettel" emp 0 s, better pr du"er nd .

are t

advance in this St te, it e ma to m we need to' re

f

years f choo ing on th p rt 0 all of our po a ion, 80 that s we ove

along in yea.rs ahead our yo S pe Ie will be ab e to rai th: a age so

that we will be able to be ninth graders and te.. th gra e1' , ev ntual y~

rather than to maintain a low educational achievemel t. There - re 31 states

in the nation that have the same relative position in carnin power, and in

the amount of Deh oling, a ~d if we are going to incl'e e the earning power

of our people we must alao increase the average educationa 2.. '" ievement of

our total population.

MR. HAWKINS: Mr. Chairman; one further question in that

connection: Isn't it correct that should cOInp eoryeducation, r compul-

sory attendance not be in effect, that a teacher could cQrry a 1ar _1" n bel'

of students in his or her classroom?

DR. PURCELL: It may have been par lcul ty true a Ie y 0.1"0

ago when we had a lot of pu Us who were q ite irregular; when aome of

these over-age pupils were forced to attend school, and the teacher was ""e-

quired to give special attention to some of these over-aged children at that

time; but we have had this law in operation since 945, and the irregula.r-

ities and the over-age group retardation in the cla s_oom. is gradually

moving out, and I think in the next few years you will find that most all the

ch ildren will be about the same age, an it will be much easier on the part

of the teachers to handle them.

MRo THRASHER: Mr. Chairman.

GOV0 GRIFFIN: Mr. Thrasher.

56

_ " TH" HE.... : T r is one

alv. a" 0 ind of

stuck in my min , CIa de. since thi rninimu: foun at'on h been pase d.

It ties .into the question he a ked. No t cher -- I me n the school officials

dm.'t want to increase the class loa from 25 to 30, or make a ch ge in it.

becau e we pay them $500 for every teacher they em loy. 1 never hay

I8rticul rty liked that basis of a lotting expenGe mon~y nd llott' g ca tal

outlay money on the teache.. In at er words, now. you tell them: ow you

blve to have this teacher and Vie will give you $500 U you employ them.

Why couldn't that be changed to allot that on a p r- tud nt e and get a

release from tying in the nlL.oonber of teachers employed?

DR. PURCELL: Mr. Thra her. that would reduce, to a degree,

our system of equalization, because the 1ar er systems arcs allotted

teachers on the basis of 21 to 25 high sch 01 children, and 21 to 30 grammar

school children; and then these sma lar systems have a lower ratio; so if

we gave ev~rybody the same amount per P!.pit for current expense, a reat r

portion of that item wculd go into the urban centers imd a smaller amount of

it than the arnount now going into the rural areas.

MRo THRASHER: Why couldn8t the same proportion work on

students just the same as teachers nd get that $500 away from the number

of teachers you employ?

DRo PURCELL: It could be transferred to a per-pll.pi basis. It

would make a variation in the amounts.

MR. THRA HER: That's wh t 'm talking a ute In other words

atop saying: If you cut off a te cher you are going to lose $500. There is no human being likes to do that.

57 DRo C LIN: I mig t a~r t iu: Tha the tate Bard of Education last year f Ued to a lot 849 tea.:; ex's that the average tt ndance th year called for. We are holding that line. MR. HAWKlNS: Mr. Chairman. GOV. GRIFFIN: Mr. Hawkins. MRo HAWKINS: There is one furth... r question I would li e to ask you, sir: Ian't it correct that a tr nspor.."'tion costs increase wth consolidation, likewise you ov_rall cost per upil will decrea e with cons olidation? DRo PURCELL: No. 1 think this is in line with what we have found through the years of experience. It has been our experience, throug the years, that we will need fewer elementary teac era in these cons lid ted Negro elementary schools, because many of the e Negro schools have een in one-, twOJ and three-teacher ochools; but as you provide a centralized school and provide tran8port~tionyou will have better attendance; you will have a much larger number of Negro pupUs go to high school; nd you will have to take what you would otherwise save in your elementary school and move up to your high school in order to furnish more high school teachers. And so we anticipate using about.the same number of teachers; effecting some savings in the elementary schools, but adding that number to the high school because of this increased attendance in the high school. MRo HAWKINS: Then con30lidation won~t effect any aavings? DRo PURCELL: Consolidation will not effect any re uction in per-pupil cost dollar-wise; no. siro LTo -GOVo VANDIVER: Mr. Chairman.

58 GOVo 0'"'1 FI : Li utenant- overnol'Vo.ndiver. LT, -GOV" VAf-.!!)!VER: Dr. Coll' s rna e the at .tem.ent a few minutes ago t at he thought a million do lar~ co .i.ld be sa.ved in the .field of tr~.n8portatlon. Would you cC'.re to elaborate on that? DRo PURCELL: We have Mr. DeFoor who work!! entirely in bat field. I think he will an.swer that question, and wil exp in h .w potentially that is possible in his talk, if you on1t mind, sir. GOV" GRIFFIN: Mr. Williams. MRG WILLIAMS: Mr. Purcell, how much problem do you have with padding of the daily attendance roll, by the schools, or do you. hav~ any method of trying to cope with it? DRo PURCELL: I~m glad you as ~ed that question, ec-use thatfts one of the reasons we have to have these area men. We do check the attendance, school by scbool, and actually their reports monthly and yearly againet the number of children Vie find in the classroom, and that9s why it is necessary to have these eight area men. We find very little pa ding. Much less today than we had a few years ago. I am glad to ay that s we are able to pay particular attention, and as 'We are able to move into t..'lese consolidated schools, we will be in a position to check even more closely than we have heretofore, to Pee that there is absolutely no padding. MR. WILLIAMS: Those people going in to those ec ole, isn1t it true they advise the school two or three days in advance of their visit to the school, when they are going to be there? DR. PURCELL: It is my un erstandil'lg that the superintendent may know, but the individual schools will not know. That the assietant

9

B pe end nt may ow tr.at the rea repr

e

onday

and Tues ay and when he goe he first call the uperinten e t nd hen

makes a visit to the several schools.

MRo WILLIAMS: The reason I call this to mind: One articular

col r d boy i1 Do glas, w 0 gr uated from high school down ere -- and

he might have attended when the visitor was to be there. Other than that he

work d every day and gr duated from hOgh school with a perfect re ord of

attend nce; but e w 9 working every day uring school hours at a laundry-

e e. 1 just wo der dhow m h of that here wa ; even though he is not

tten i g school -- of co rae I donOt charge ou ith knowledge thatII by

any means -- bu you wer providing t e vera e amount of oney r pupll

for him, and I donUt know how many mor~ it co d hav be n. I underst 0

that at times he attenda ce was pretty ight in me f the class 00 s;

particularly in the Douglas colored chool. I mea , not .jus for day or two

at a time, but ver lon periods or tim; but they woul c n inue to carry

tho on the roll as matte of continuing to secure the funds from t e

S ate for that particular hool.
n 0 PU CELL: We have i policy, which has been inaugurate

o y recently, and that 1 that orne 0 our people who ch c 1/ who i it

these choals, have been dropping in -- somewhat like the audito drops in

at th bank, or :vhen some of your men drop in to a3certain whether t xes

have not been paid -- nd we have, in mo t ins ncea, fo d things in good

order. A few places, but not rna YII have b en irreg arc

MRo WILLIAMS: I want to clear up that point in mO d. I believe

down there they have - - I dont ow what yo want to call them - - a rua

60 offic r r errant offic r, or what it mi ht b ; t Y e.ve hem, in a diU n to your aS8i tant supervisors.
DRo PURCELL: There are no State fund spent f r a truant officer or attendance officer.
MRo WILLIAMS: They have one lady doing that type f work, n matter what she might be called or what he_ title might be. An in addition to that Lltey have the visiting teacher or u ervisor; i don8t know what t eir titles are. I just wanted to see if there wasnSt a difference between the two categories of work.
MR" BYRUM: Mr. Chairman. GOV. GRIFFIN: Mr. Byrum. MRo BYRUM: In line with this queetion, here, where a rural supervisor or instructor goes in and finds these conditions, does he carry the county school superintendent with him? DR. PURCELL: No, sir. MR o BYRUM: Well, doe.nOt the duties of the county school superintendent require him to visit these schools? DRo PURCELL: It requires the county superintendent; yes; but -MR. BYRUM: Couldn't he make the oame report t headquarters up here that this area supervisor -DR. PURCELL: We want to be sure that there is no collusion on the part of the records. Usually we find them in good order. ut we prefer to go; to send our own representative ourselves; to check the reco ds themselves, and we have in a number of instances reduced State aid and made adjustments accordingly, when we do find an irregular situation.

61
MRo B OR UM: Inst ad of d ing tha , the loemoval of tl.e county school superi tendent would e in oloder, wouldnt it? he neglected his duties? Of courses I realize the county school superin endent is elected by the people of that county. But the school itself, if this county school superintendent Ls on the job; if I understand it, a.s his duties; its& a duplication, there. He could check his own achool and not know when they are going to step in on them and make his own report, couldnQt he?
DRo PURCELL: Yes, air; he could; and without any reflection, sir, would like to point out that sometimes we find irregularities L'1. his office; 90 it is very often neceasary to get basic data to compare with his
is records. And 80 the informa.tion that we gather always available to
grand juries or local people who look into these irregularities. But we think the matter of rem vOng the superintendent is eJomething that addresses itself entirely to the loca.l people.
MR. WILLI MS: Mr. Chairman. GOVo GRIFFIN: Mr. Williams. MRo WILLIAMS: Actually, if the total daily attendance, or averag daily attendance of people under one county achool 8uperintendent, if that were reduced, that would also reduce the amount of funds coming to his particular school system, that he might not want to lose; am I not correct? DR. PURCELL: Yes. sir. GOV~ GRIFFIN: Dr. Purcell. for the purpose of clarity -- of course I know the whole Committee is interest d in this particular phase of it, but I am a ittle bit more interested, I expect, than the Committee; not to the extent of the responsibility for our institutions but you aid a whOle

62. ago t at durin the n~ t 4-yer- peri we would 1'0 bly et an . crea e over the four years y something aroUl'ld 100, 0 aditio al ch ren-wou d YO\1 say, on the resent rat of mere se _.. in acho I populatio ? 30,000 a year?
DR. PURCELL: At least 30,000 a year. COV. GRIFFIN: That would be 120,000, for the next four years. DR o PURCELL: Governor, that represents first g1' ders, so to speak, who will be coming into the fir t grade. We belie e, a we move into these b tter high schools, and particularly w th better hi h school opportunities for Negroes, that the holding power of the schools will increaae and you will have a grea.ter number of high school students. GOV. GRIFFIN: Take it for granted that some in the higher grades will drop out. What would you say we would have to 9 t as a figure br increase in school population during the next four years? DR. PURCELL: At least 120,000; yes, sir. CiOVo GRIFFIN: 120,000. You don8t think there woul be any decrease in the upper grades and in high school? DR. PURCELL: No, sir. GOV. GRIFFIN: I am satisfied that there will be around 30,000 additional children each year to enter the first gra es throug out the State. Do you think, then, it would be a hundred -- we can depend upon 120,0 0 increase in the school population during the next 4-year period? DR. PURCELL: Yes. sir. GOV0 GRIFFIN: Total increase. DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir.

63 GOV. GRl FIN: Acc rdin to fro Thrasher's figures a whUe ago, t at would mean that the pre ent per capit cod of ducatio , $4,700,000 for the next chool year with that n xt 30,000 -- this is without an increa e in teachers! salaries, and without an mere se in profession 1 certificates, on efficiency, and $9 t 400,000 the next year; $14,1 0,000 th third year; $18,800,000 the fourth year, or appr xima ely an' cre se ver the next four years, if we do nothin else, of approx' ately $48,0 0,000. Does that sound about like w at yo 1 think it woul b ? DR. PURCELL: It sounls extr ely con "'r'vative to me. GOV. GRIFFIN: "E"'1:remely co Bervative~tQ DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir. GOVo GRIFFIN: Then, of cour e, in he increase in te che s salaries on their pro ess'onal ce tificates -- this i , of course, based on the av rage cost of education today? DR. PURCELL: Yes. GOV. GRIFFIN: What do you think eventually the State 8.s maximum effort wUl be in the field of education? Do you think -- and at&5 the reason I asked you the question a whUe ago. Wha.t is the total State effort today, and what is the total local effort? Because Bomew ere, in my opinion, along the line, we are going to have to provide for the fundamentals, and we are going to have to leave the extras to the 10 a iti that desire these e~a9. Just like the visiting teachers; and a certa' number. of extra supervisors. I donat know how many million dollars we will be able to get in, in Georgia, without pu ting too great a burden on the people at the State level.

b4

It seem r e to e, fl'OD'l xpe:rie ce in th. pa t, t t every time

1he State aasunles

lbility, 8 rnebo 9lip . ut down at

the local level a little bit, Now we a at teSt te level, put a t ir a ain as

much money in the minimu:cn foundatio as the Sta e f Flori a. I do t

think they put but $71,000,000 in there. I dontt ow about our ad 'ac n ,

sister states. I do know that Senator Byrd t Id me hat the local effort in

Virginia was about 40% of the total load. It doesn8t run yt n like that in

Georgia, and I am just wo dering, with this Committee making a study of

the problem, that wbe e along the line will t e S teGs m,a,dmwn effort e;

or will we be confro ted after the next four years with another $15,000,000;

because nobody is carry' g t e ball locally? What is your t . in about

that?

DR o PURCELL: I think the both of them will have t crease

proportionately; the local and the State.

GOVo GRIFFIN: Have the local au iviaions increased propor-

tionately during the last few years; or have they decreased?

DR. PURCELL: The local systems, at the time the f undation

program atarted, were raising about $26, OOOa 000, in 1951-52. La t yea

the local systems provided $35,925,000 toward the total co t, including --

GOV. GRIFFIN: Is that including the school buil ing program?

DRo PURCELL: Inc1udi g n t the utlay for capital improve-

ment , but it does include 8 rvicing their local bon i Slles, and the oper-

ating costs of schoo s.

I have here last year i B ocal receipts on the part of 11 public

schools, and the total expenditures for va.rious purposes. The State, in

65 the year 1953-5 provided 99 g 890,557, or 69.7% of the cst. T e local systems provided $35, 9Z5, 699 9 or 25% of the cost. We received, throu h Federal grantsD $7,620,598. That&g 5.3% of the total a .. ount of funds. That's the source of school bunds last year.
I think t e wealth of the State will increase. 1 think it ia already mcreasing. The records in the Commissioner9s office, we had an opportunity to check a short time ago; the local administrative units in this State, city and county systems, have had a. $400 9 000,000 increase in their digest in the last six years. If you look at the records.
The combined taxable wealth at the local level has increased $400,000,000 within the last six years.
When you look at the per capita income in this State, in the same periodg we have had a 22% gain in the per capita income; in ability to support education.
In the same length of time we have had a 140/0 increase in the number of pupils.
Actually, the wealth of this State is increasing just as rapidly as the number of pupils, but it is this increase in the cost of the total number that we are providing for that gives us the real burden in trying to provide for the operation of our public schools. If it were not for this increased cost in the operation of our present program of servicesg we could pretty well carry, 1 thinkg this increased cost for the additional pupils.
But you have two jobs; not only for the additional pupils, but you have this additional increased costs of operations in providing for the 92g 000 school children this year.

6
MRG THP.ASHER: Mr. Chairm n. GOV. GRIFFIN: Mr. Thrashel. MR. THRASHER: With reference to th"'t local effort" 1 would like to make one observation. That question has been brought up considerably in the discussion of education about local effort a to 8C ols. I give you an example. There is a county -- say Bacon County. They get $300,000 a year for the operation of their schools fre the StateG They get $33" 000 {reIn local taxes. Well. assume this education program" you raise 50% more lnoney than you do now" which it looko like it i8 headed fer. For Bd.con County. 50% of their present allotment would be $150,000. NO'.'V on a state level they would get $150,000 11 but in order to realize that on their 'ocal tax baeia, where we wo d n'lay e have t increase t;pces maybe 250/0 in order to realize .150, OGO on a loc.a tn basis. they would have to increase the taxes on their local citizens five times. for the simple reason you donUt get advarJ.tage of your areas of tax on. GOV. GRIFFIN: 1 understand that. Mr. 'I'hr sher. Of course it would be impossibleo in my opinion, for a lot of rural counties to take up anything like that. You have got to get the money from the folks that have it, and we have got some industrial areas, and we have got some metropolitan areas, and we have got some areas where people have things to tax. They don8t have very much to tax in my ccamty, or in Bacon County, and 1 guess the counties where most of the ge tlemen on this Committee come from. But I can remember a few years ago, when the State was putting $15,500,000 in the chools in Georgia at

67 the Sta e level, and local ubdivi ions I thiI t wer utting in about forty-two. We upped it to $37,500,000 and 8ornebo y slipped out about $10,000,000 in r~eponsi ility, and being from a country county I don't want to hit us over the head any harder than we are already eing hit.
Don't misunderstand me, but I think this: There must be a point somewhere along the line beyond which the Stz.te is going to have to consider this question in the light of we are saturated.
Now it's the State responmibility, and it is one of the responsibUities of four in the Constitution; to cd cate the children of Georgia. That's our business. I am not trying to, from the State's standpoint, to s irk it one bit. But I think what the members of this Committee are going to have to know first is how much of the trimmings can we t ke off, and the ni.ceties, in the way of economies; an-d the. n what are we going to have to have for the next four years in a growing State; one thatQs increasing in population and one tha~'s increasing in wealth; and I believe when placed before the General Assembly of the people of Georgia, they do not want their schools to suffer. They do not want us to lose ground.
Now I am glad to go into this question thoroughly, because it is everybody's responsibility and we are going to have to have, over the next four years -- 1 don't say $48,000,000 will be enough. There are other things we have to consider. But I donlt want to go before the General Assembly and say: Give me some money to run the schools. It wouldnt be the thing to do.
Lay down the population figures and the cost of education. and what we are going to have to have in the next 4-year period. Then the

68 Gener&.l &S:Lm y can ecide wh~ er. th y wan t. ~t type: 0 sCPoo system in G_Ol'gia, or whether they Vllim,t 'to eu ta'1 it, aI6d of curse the c01"resp nding tax measures to go along with it.
MR o THRASHER: Mr. Chairm~.n, let me ai ~ 8 m figures here that might be intereating. $4 per capita is sp~nt nnw for c-ards of Education. In other words, tha+Os the Boarde;! expense and olLperintendents Q expense. They are spending in 854 -- I don8t think ycu lave even got these figures, Claude -- $6 pel' capita fox in8tructlonal su.pervisors and non-visiting principals, visitlng teache;re, and so Qn; $6 per capi.ta.
GOVo GRIFFIN: Is that $6 per school child? MRo THRASflER: Yes, sir. $4 is you' oards 8 :tight nO'il. The maintenance of buildings has been running all' tmd $20 pCJ. C2. it- , but when you mO'lre out over a one~room shack, two-roem a t'.c!~. with no electricity, no water, sewera.ge, ox anvthbg~ nd ba.sing t ..e maintenance of a building strictly on bueiness maintenance cost$, it tal-eo 55 sqUare feet per child to properly house them; hallways, lunchl' om. That's about the average. Figure our cost on that at seven and a-half. Instead of it coating around $20 per child to properly maintain the buil ings, which has been pretty shoddy, that cost is going to run to $41 per child. There is no way to avoid it. GOVo GRIFFIN: Are you considering the $14, 500D 000 a year we are in hock? MR. THRASHER: No; this is just maintenance; light~ water~ heat. GOV. GRIFFIN: You mean in excess.

"'"l'l' ~ ......... _ ... '" n'

>{ ',.1 , ~."

..' .~ ..... - ..... - , ,~,.~. ' .,t;- ' ',".~' ....

MRo THR~ ""HER: . "es. ..d l"e ) i- 3. T at s j ~t he oper. ting

costs of the schools.

Now that' 8 baaed on $1.125 per square foot, w' ich ic a well-

established figure as to what it costs to maintain a uUding, and I have

discoWlted that by .... only took t~\)-thirdD of it, bee use it is n t in se

all the year around. That works out $41.

So in spite of all you c .D do. you are faced with double co ts per

student for the maintenance ~..nd oper.....:on of" c new buil ings being

built. You are building $ZOO, GOO, 000 we; tl of bu.il ings. The least amount,

7% of your inveetmen,;t, that would e $14, 00, 000 fo~ the maintenance of buildings alone.

GOV 0 GRIFFIN: You ar getting worl1'e by the day!

MRo THRASHER: The same thing happen.ed at Milledgeville Hospital when they bu It those new buildings down there. You ha 0 i.n...

crea e the cost

ve.. y ti e you n J.

0'.1

into mo ern ulldiD. '''~ u re uttOng it n .Gd~l"n

Yo r transL"-L.lL.-

fl I> time :.

$17. 4. and co ore :'9.7Z.

transpOl"tin that kid bacl{"Nar e ~, d rwc:.1"ds 7~ tu Be 01 and 7 hac I

notice ere in A a ~ta they ar,.., ta ~..u~ thatSs 7~ to nd from, or 15 ~- 14~ ted y.

bus e

ow w en all 0 th Be etue .. stGrt flowing to these ~w C r,oe

those. That's not n the a i of these t;;a ..portedo over. Now it will be 6 r B udent (....'" t e on a tr;.;.n~ orted. T en a.

7
other expen e of the e cation operat n8 run $6 er capita. So you have only got, really, that $6 er capita there for that su ervision stuff, and possibly this catch-a 1 $6 thd. coul-' h~ reduced somet 11.ng where you could anywhere touch to In other words, the biggest ortion of your cost is in your teachers, transportation, and your maintenance ..
In other words, we have improved our school sy tern and we have gotten ourselves into the mire, doing it.
GOVo GRIFFIN: What do you figure the increased per capita costs would be on your figures? .
MRo TIiRASHER: The overall costs, when you get your colored and white equalized, and get your new figures, the way I figured out it wwld put it at $244 per year per child, with 300/0 being supplied y local
systems, and 70% by State.
GOV.. GRIFFIN: 244. MR.. TIlRASHE ; ~Z44 peZ' child.. GOVo GRIFFIN: That's about $90 more, isn't it? MR .. THRASHER: It runs now $170 on a white student, so that would be $74 more. GOV" GRIFFIN: $74. and 900,000 children. That8s $63,000,0000 MR .. THRASHER: That's what it -- about what it eventually will be. DR" PUR CELL: That $244 per child is juat slightly under the average for the entire nation. Last year it was $2.45 to $2.46 per child for the entire nation. MR" THRASHER: Mr. Chairman, may I make the statement that

11 I arrived a th se figure in epen ent y7 1 didn9 t even 1m w of that average.
GOVo GRIFFIN: You say the local would bear 30% and the State 70%.
MRo THRASHER: Yes. GOV. GRIFFIN: That would be about $4Z, 000, 000 a year. MRo COOK: u ir. C irman, under our compulsory ttendance la.w, compulsion is imposed on children in the group from 1 to 14. It is generally known that we are not enf01"cillg tIl t compulsory enforcement law in certain areas of the State. 1 ask, as a matter of information, if Mr. Purcell has any information that mig lot give us some light on possible increase in school attendance if the la we e enfo cede In other words, do you have inforrr.ation as to the ages of the youth in Georgia be een 7 and 14 that would be eligible for admission if this la '! were enforced that are not now attending? DR. PURCELL: Out of 863,000 attendance last ye r, as to enrollment, you would have almost 100,000 children that are a.bsent every da.y. MR. COOK: 100,000. DRo PURCELL: 100, 000 absentee i out of school for one reason or another. MRo COOK: Did that per capita cost, there; did th t take into consideration the compulsion law that would in many cases force the pupils to attend. DR. PURCELL~ It i9 based on the actual daily attendance. MR. COOK: In other words, there is a possibility under this

la , t at' it "7 l"e e or ' e , OU V'!OU til a e t add to th~ er c pita cost?
DRo PURCELL: It wou d add to t e dget, be ""use t e increased number of pupils --
MRo COOK: Let me ask you: I believe a.t the la t session of Legislature 1 believe a Bill was introduce at would bar admiasio of all chUdr1:'n who were not six yea.rs of age, or on November 1st of the school year. It seems that there is a variation of admi $ion in the first grade in certain areas, and it varies may e f om 5 y ars to the 7th. Thill Bill was defeated in the Legislature. Are you familiar with that?
DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir.
MR. COOK: Had that BUI passed fixing that admis iea 0 ... 6,
would that effectuate any savings at all? DR" PURCELL: .At the present time each schoo systeln deter-
mine that age. The date November 1at is the date that prevails in moat of the systems. Some systems use the policy of atL"'n'tting a c ild if he becomes 6 by January. It would have reduced t ..e number in such systems, but other systems in the State have Sept~mber 1st ~"'ld October 1st, and 90 it would have avera.ged out, in my opinion, the situation, beca.use you would have admitted some children in systems that are not now allowed to enter, and you a.lso would have restricted some t.lw.t are permitted to enter.
MRo COOK: Then the unuorm a.ge oi admission if fi-xed as of November 1st would not effect any serious --
DR" PURCELL: No, sir; not in my OpiniOi'1. MRo COOK: The reason I asked you that: One of the most

73

l" .)

'.lie ay' nd

it f re

if t.hat Ell we~e p sae.. I t.hin..1t I am autho:d3.:_ to ~iv the name, the

SuperintEl dent over in Up C un.., O~O H stu .

to'-i c th

arrived at it. $350,000 a year.

R o PURCELL: He haa evi entlya. ittod chll l"An ':ho h d be~
come 6 at a 12. er date, and su.m.ing at w '_d give him fewer c ildren,

and the an1C thing wou d pply to oth .r -y t ';.n~

h ppen

only the first ye r. ,After that, it wovJ.d make no di!fe:N~nce. If a child

stayed in school 12 years his to al acho 1 c at wou.ld be the s n'le.

COLo GUILLEBEAU: Th re is on oh~ '!:

loca.l situation. I agree ith the Qoveruor t .t more

ing

to be needed, but under the present swt-up a:ren1t they taldn U Q'\ 'ch

tax as they can? Aren't they limi' d in the an'1oun.. of In ZiCy l.A 'I n

raise?

DR o PURCELL: They are limited ill their n"lillag to 15 mUls

for operation. They are now levying 15 mills.

COL. GUILLEBEAU: The only way they could increase t..lteir

money would be to raise the valu.ation of their property, 01" have their

taxes raised.

DR. PURCELL: Some the 9ys'c:cms are proposing to increase

their assessments. One county pra t'cally dou led their asses 'n'lente and

redu.ced the millage some; but aU of them are making dollar~wlse as much

effort as they would be permitte t de under the IS-mill limitat'on.

7

GOV" G I FIN: Mr. Overby.

MR. OVERB : Mr. Purcell, you stated a whUe ago th t a con-

servative figure, in answer to the Gover or's que tion to you. about the

amount of mo ey that would be required for these lZ0, 0 0 additi na

pupils in the next four years. you stated a conservative figure, I think,

would be $48.000,000 is that cor ect? ORo PU CELL: Yes, ire MRo OVERBY: I wond r if ou wou d un ~rtake to m e any
estimate as to wh t additional xpen tures W) be bl"oU ht about t at wo d have to be brought bout by an automatic teac er raise, due to

getting an addition I certificate. and so f rt , over the xt 0 r years?

ORo PURCELL: Our experience haa sho ~ us

cause of

the incrementa that are due, due to longer p r iode of teac

ore

years of teaching, and eCaU6e of higher ce tificates, % f the base

al l' , w ich 8 $75,000,000 a year, or 0; it runs practic lty $3,00 ,000 a ea to ay those automatic inc eases in the a ary chedul that the

te

s are entitled o

OVERBY: You estimate in the next four years that w uld

un -D PURCELL: M estimate has been ab ut $58,000,000 to
$60,000,000, because 1 think he Governor admitted this matt l' of increasing the cost of intaining the buildings. You spoke of y of main- _

taining the status quo of the same amount per pupil; nd so it is because of

this increased cost tha Mr. Thrasher brings out of mai taining these uildin 8 tha wi 1 neces itate --

75 GOV GR FF : Dr. Purcell, fraJ y tIl Chair d no idea that the maintenance on t e new bull ing wo d coot us twice such s the maintenance on an old building. DR. PURCELL: Well, these school systems that are using 0'1 to heat these new classrooms; to furnish sanitary eupplie , whe they haven1t furnished them in these little, one- and two-teacher schools; when they have to pay the light bill, and many of these little chools ve no lights; and when one superintendent told me he paid $850 month for
I
current, when his last year's budget for the whole ye r wa $850, it makes a big difference when they move in this new building.
MRl) ALLCORN: Mr. Purcell, I went into Bome figures own there in our county and it amazed me, on the same basis that s am zes the Governor, if you hadn't gone into the thing and found out so e f cts about it. In our county, in Meriwether, we have about a 50% colored and 50% white population. Of course all of the enlarged school pro am, or IZ'actically all of it, is brought in to the colored, and thatl s true practiaally all over the State. In our county right down there, year before last, 1952-53, we were in the black. Last year we wound up about $1900 in the redo This year they estimate they will probably wind up about $300,000 in the red. Next year we go into a new school program. This is the problem they bavenCt answered me, yet, and it is a real problem, and this $500,000 finances it to some extent, but this clarifies, in this one county; that the first thing that they are going to have to do is to provide 12 new busses. It will require 12 busses, and they will then be operating on over an SO-pupil basis, in all of them, if they all go to school each day;

6

and that O t a co t oi. a x u~ $ 6 gOOOg whi h oi cour e the COl ty has to

prov de, as I under t d it, totally. y u split t t up 0 3- ear basis

that's an additional cost there of about $IZ, 000

Then you have got due on pre ent busses g that they finance :ve

a period of three years, $15,000. And you -re natu ally gom to ave 1'.-

placements each year on your busses. We operate 40 bu . es in the

county; Z8 busses are county-o ed; lZ a e privat ly-owne 0

C ew lZ

that will be addedg of courseg wi! be county-owne U58 s. So that there

is a total cost there of $30,000.

Now that's your bue item ext year. Now here is m intenanc

of buUdings. The estimated coot -- and th's was an ama

"ng to meg

because we were

ed out of 17 bui dings into 7 u' dings, or into 5

brand new buildings, and riO have either been renovated rca ge. The

estimated cost for j itors, eat, lightsg supplies, telephoneg l' pairs and

grounds for each of those buildings will be $Z6,500g all of whic co t we

donit have today, because as you saidg or as omeone rema ke here a

while ago, most of that is in a little ahackg r something like that, and

these o~er buildings are not being maintained on the basis that th se n w,

fine buildings will have to be maintained.

Then we have this transportation problem. We will row from

transporting 45% of them by bus, or 1300 pupils colored only. The seve

new Negro schools, we will have to transport 80 to 850/0, or about Z400

pupils.

We have in the county, as 1 said, down there, we ha.ve a budget

of about $90 g 000. ThatOs on the I5-mill, the full amount of e tax allowed

71
der the law baaed C' our res nt :gest. 54. 0 of that p I thinkp comes back on what they call a charge-back --
DRo PURCELL: It's a.pplied to teacher ~ a rics. MR. ALLCORN: It's applied to te chera' s la-rice; so that actually leaves in th Boal'd that. amount I mentioned. That problem is multiplied. We have a $1,250,000 - of the $200,000,000 1 guess we have about $1. 00.000 of the 200,00,0 p but that is just one very small percentage of the total, a d it is multiplied. That in itself proves -- 1 am not adyocating it, but there are economies that can be effected -- but this is a real problem facing the counties, as well as the other. How the counties are going to raise the d itional money is a problem to me. You have either got to go out and rai e y ur digest, or raise your assessment. Thates just as unpopular as yth' g that will be done here today, but we a.re going on the limit of the 1 w wlth our assessments. MRo COOK: Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Allcorn, who is an authority, for information on the question of land values in agricultural sections? Doesn't the abUity of the local governments to contribute in the same proportion or ratio, to which the Governor referred a minute ago, wasn't that taken away from the counties when the homestead exemption laws were passed; and isn't that the biggest single factor that has reduced the ability of the counties to contribute? That is, in the agricultural sections of Meriwether? MR. ALLCORN: It amounts to $20 500, 000 in our county. MRo COOK: $2, 500, 000 in one agricultural county was the low

78

re

nOlth

IvfR. ALL 0 II.: It would gi1e y u a out 37,00, 3 gOO.

oov0 RI FIN: It now re "= t e

What is

t e plea e of t

? Your lunch ou. d at e thl.lrlgs to con-

tribute to YOl\r comio' t? LTo -GOVo VANDIVER: Mr. C irman, 1m e we zoe eas for a
peri of ne hour. and return at 1:30.

GOVo GRIFFIN: You v hea Go e or tha.t this COm:lni'ttee o O' 'ace' U!' 1 the our of 1:35.

who favor the motion vote Ay

(Ayes responded. )

GOV. GRIFF Those opposed; no.

(No response.)

(iOV. GRIFFIN: The yes have it, d the m t' /I I' eva The Chair '\V uld like to see the Lieutenant-Gove r.

(Recess t en for luncheon; re ed t 1:35 Po Me)

(LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR VANDlVER presid )

LTo-GOVo VANDIVER: The ti for t"ccon ening h vlng arrived, the Committee will be in eSBion.

Dr. Purcell, do you wish to continue:? ORo PURCELL: I donat w nt to use touch tim. 1 th;

cluld move rapidly thro gh th e other it inS on the Bu et.

Item 5, for e,r..ample, provides $14,500,000, schoo buD. ing

funds. These f\U1ds are all tted to the cev 'J: 1 sy teA Alread the amounts are determined and commitments e for t .. '" con inued payment

79 of these allotm nts over a. eriod of years.
Item 6 provides for an Equliza ion un. We have had for years and years an equalization fund to rural counties. Tha 's distributed on a formula and it is paid directly to the rural counties th t have ery litt e wealth, and it is used to equalize educational opportWliti\!s in their 0 n counties. That was put in by Act of the Leg slature at the time the law wa passed, and many of the rural counties would have to have their pro rata part of that fund in order to carryon heir present program. All of them would have to have it.
Regional Library Program, Item 8 -- wellp I don8t want to skip No.7. We talked about it this morning. There may be some additional information. If so, 1 would be glad to answer the questions. I 9 0 d reiterate or empha ize the fact that the allotments in Item 7 for administrative and supervisory service are to the 8y tems and can be used on an optional basis for theee services, or can be used for teachers' salaries.
Now that allotment is something that provides for t ese services on an optional basis at the local level. The local people determine whether they want certain of these services, or whether they do not.
The Regional Library Program, $290,000: That is a program which helps with the full library service throughout the State. Three or four counties go together and provide bookmobile service. Mr. Hubbard will give you an explanation of that service when he has an opportunity to talk to you.
Vocational Education: That includes Federal and State funds; $2,275,000, and the Federal funds amount to $850,000, approximately that

o
sum, this e r. The vocatio lal fun s are u cd to aid in e e special programs, such as trade schools, North Georgia, South Geor ia Trade Schools. It a so is used to pay vocatio al teachers ad ition 1 pay for additional work beyond the regular acho 1 day. These teachers are compelled to visit the pupils to supervise the home projects, to spend a great deal of time visiting in the homes; 60 the division of vocational ,ducation use s some of that money for that purpose. They ale use some of it in adult education, in upgrading people in the textile in ustries and others who need it, at ftight; adult groups; and it is uoed in special das es, distributive education groups that work in retail sale outlet; other phases of their diversified program; various types of vocational programs; new industries coming into the state; and they organize speci I classes, such as they did at Clarksville, or such as they are now planning at Statesboro, where the employees of the new industry are trained in a particular type of work, and part of their program is for that type service.
You wUl notice that the total grants to all the systems is $101,903,000 actually distributed to the several school systems.
Then in addition to that we have Textbooks and Libraries allotment which is budgeted to the local system, allotments made on a budget basis. But the local systems submit requisitions for the textbooks, and they are allowed to use up to whatever amount h 8 been budgeted for them. Mr. Hubbard will explain the basis for the allotments to the several school aystems. But that item includes not only textbooks but a service through the film library, audio-visual aids; it also includes a school library program.

81
Then we a e t m 11, whic & is 25, o. It w=. a. . cial a ro-
priation, set up by Governor T Ima ge f J: t e purpose of fostering a temperance program in the public echo Is J and that has been rna' tained separately in the budget an~. earmark d particularly for that service.
The Department of Education. $1,2.94,000; that is the combin.ed administrative costs for the State Department of Education. As was brought out here this morning, it amounts to 1.180/0 of the $109,000,000 budget. $1,2.94, 000 does not inel de the administrative costs of the vocational rehabilitation division. which is pa.id 100% from Federal funds. Thi matter of reclaiming ha.ndicapped v'vilians and making them employ ble, l1e total administrative cost of that program is paid entirely by Federal funds, but this is the total amount of State funds that is used in the Department of Education for overhead expense.
The Board of Education, $13,500. Vocational R9habilitation; that includes both State and Federal money, $2.,309,909. At the time the Federal funds are used, if the client in the vocational rehabilitation program, the State ia required under the Federal Act to match fifty-fifty whatever is spent on a client. and when the representative of that division has an opportunity to talk with you, he will also amplify this item and explain the further use that is made of its funds. The State Institutions, that maintain the Blind and Deaf Schools, operated under Mr. Barrett2s division; Rehabilitation. the Blind Academny at Macon, and the School for the Deaf at Case Springs, which includes both a white school and Negro school at each of these loc tions. The combined udget is $109, 0,000. and of that sum there is a

82 q arter million earmarked in a prograln for exceptional and ha dicappe children. That is a special pro ram, which I think Mayor Welch lelped to start years ago w en he was in the Legislature, by providing possibly some legislation that provides a etter opportunity for these children that are handicapped in speech and in other ways.
I would like to point out on page 2 the source of this $109,000,000. I think that is of importance to this group, because the regular appropriation to the public schools as provi.ded in the last Appropriation Act; that is, the first section of the Appropriation Bill is $95,300,000. That item was
. reduced 6% by Exec utive Order, when all other departments of the Govern-
ment were reduced 60/0; and so the regular appropr'ation is $89,582.,000. Federal Funds received for Vocational Education at the time
this budget was worked up, $72.0,600. It since has been increased to $850,000 through increased Federal appropriations.
Federal Funds for Rehabilitation, $1,409,909. That has been slightly increased by a few thousand dollars this year, with additional Federal funds; no additional local -- well, about $40,000 additional State funds were required in order to match these Federal funds.
The Income from Commodities; that is, the Department of Education operates the distribution of commodities, to all of the public schools through high schools, and to certain State institutions; and in providing for the overhead expense for the distribution of the Federal commodities, the Welfare Department, and the Health Department, and others, reimburse us with part of the overhead expense, and that amoW1ts to $5,000.
Income from -- well, the balance carried forward, which is not

reocc rrin, 2,3 3, 798. When r'i ap :L'op:tatio& i rna e on a bie ium basis it is often n ces ary to maintain a balance h fir t of the ea in order to meet your budget needs the second year, and so thatla the situation here. It was necessary to try to carryover from the first year of the biennium a certain amount of money that could be apple ed on the second year of the biennium.
Now from the Governor's surplus fund, we entitle that (?s Deficit Appropriation, $15,337,418.71.. That is the crucial item in this entire budget. It is a matter of maintaining that '1'15,000,000 in order to maintain the present program of services. That doc.nat provide for any expansion or for the normal increases that come in our program of services. So adding those items together you see the source of our total budget, $109,438, 71.6.32. It is the budget as adopted by the Board of Education, approved by the Budget Commission, for the school year 1954-55.
MR. COOK: Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? LTo -GOV. VANDIVER: Mr. Cook. MR. COOK: Dr. Purcell, if the Slurp us funds which you designate here as Deficit Appropriations, if they are dissipated or uoed you would then have to operate under your $89,582,000 figure, unless additional funds were raised; is that correct? DRo PURCELL: That9s right; yes, sir. MR. TIiRASHER: Mr. Chairmano LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: Mr. Thrasher. MR o THRASHER: Letts get lfiack to this 8 pervision a little bit, Claude. 1 have been told that if the principals had a clerk or secretary,

84
12.5 or $150. a n t , rat~ ethan thes te c _er that ar sel' ing as supervisors, that t e principals themselves then would have an oppor unity to properly supervise their work. I am told that the principal of the Bchool now haa so rnuch detail to look after; operating lunchrooms, a.nd answering telephones, and answering inquiri4!s, CJ.nd filling out queBtin~"aires; t11 the doesn't have time to do this supervision, but if a clerk w .s given him to assist him in his administrative work, he could have'tinle to perform this supervision there by putting back into the classroom the teacher who holds this certificate to teach. Now what do you think about that?
DRo PURCELL: Weli, Mr. Thrasher, some of the larger schools have secretaries at the expense of the local Board of Education, and a great many of them use students on a part-time job for the experience they get; students that are enrolled in commercial courses; and they come an hour when they are not in school, and another one another hour, and eometimes the principal has a little help from that source, by using student help. Some of them are using some girl or boy that can type, answer the elephone.
I think in the large schools, with 30, 40, or SO teachers, the principal needs a clerk, but I think in the small schools, 1 think it can be handled with student labor.
MR. THRASHER: In other words, at that time, with the help that he gets, will the principal have time then to do the supervision of his teachers without --
DRo PURCELL: I think. someone that understands, probably, a little better than I do, the actual work of the instruction supervisor -- but

85 as I understand it, ese te chers work syetem-wide, just 0 the same basis as the superinte ent work syste -wide on an adminis rative basis; to help teachers grow in their own profession; to help them understand better ways of doing the things that they are doing; working with the youn teachers that haven't had much experience; working with the older teachers who have been out of the teaching profession for a period of time, to help them understand better ways of teaching; meeting with grou.ps of teachers. It isn't an individual teacher-snooper-viaor proposition. It's an individual group leader basis of somebody who is efficient, and equipped, and trained. and understands how to help these teachers in their own instructional program.
I think it ought to be pointed out that throug r search th twas actually carried on in this State, we have actually found that some of the counties with good supervision have enabled their students to grow, to Jearn, and to achieve in the field of education as much as 25'0 more than other counties where they have no leadership of that type.
MR. THRASHER: In other words, you still insist that this supervis ion is proper --
DR. PURCELL: 1 think in large administrative units the superintendent and instructional supervisor are necessary. I think in smaller units the superintendent and principals can handle the program.
And in many places it is necessary, I think. to combine the Visiting teacher service and instructional supervisor as one job in a more or less medium-sized system.
MR. THRASHER: Let me ask you one other question: In

86
allotting teacher to an ducational S otem, s y 0 e c co ther h ve 400 students; you allot teachers on the basie of, say, 2.5 to a teacher, i.s that about right, on a large school?
DR. PURCELL: Z5 in high school; 30 in elementary. MR. THRASHER: Also, you have been allotting, in the rural schools, maybe 15 etudents -- a teacher for every 15 studento; i that about right? DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir; the scale for highschool runs from ZS to 15; from 30 to 1.0 for grammar school. MR. THRASHER: Here is the question 1 wanted to ask you: We are building these schools all over Georgia. We are consolidating the schools, and even though a school may be in a rural county, if it has 400 students in it, is there any reason to continue to allot student to that county on a IS-per-teacher basis? DR. PURCELL: No, sir; Mr, Thrasher. W have already moved in on that point. We have, by the authority of the Board, adopted a Dcale that applies to systems when they complete the bu'lding. So we take the lower half of that scale completely off and use the upper brackets. MR. THRASHER: That, then, will tend to decrease the number of teachers that you need that are allotted on that basis, will it? DRo PURCELL: Yes, sir. MR. THRASHER: Now, wUI there be any difference between a 400 school heretofore, and a 400 school under this consolidated system, regardless of where it is located? I mean, if you have got 400 pupils. Will they stUI be ZS per teacher?

87 DRg PURCELL: There wo d be vel' littl d"fferen-:e. I woul say that the scale wO'.11d run 30, 29. 28. Th ~ might be one or two p Us difference in the rural counties, as compa!:ed to Atlanta" the 'very largest 8ystem, here. But t.~ere would be much lesa difference in the scale from here on out than there has been in the past. MRo THRASHER: My question is, have you taken into consideration the number of teachers you are going to need because of increased enrollment, that you wUI gain by making an allotment on 25 per teacher, instead of 15 per teacher, in that area? DRo PURCELL: Yes, sir. We know now, if that is applied State-wide, it wUl be 900 teachers difference; but that is a gradual thing that has to be achieved over a period of years. MR. THRASHER: When do you think that will come? DR. PURCELL: As rapidly as they are completing the school building program, sir. MRo THRASHER: Say within the 4-year period? DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir. MR. THRASHER: In other words, that is one economy we are getting by making larger and consolidated schools? DRo PURCELL: Yes, air. 1 think a large part of that economy will be offset by increased attendance in the high school. MR. THRASHER: What I am getting at, if you are going to change the proportion of it, it will be building up in the sparsely populated areas. DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir. LT. -GOVo VANDIVER: Can you do that adminbtratively?

DRo PU CELL; Yes. sir; the law gives the oa d the right to do that in the ir discretion. and we hope the Act will be changed by t e Legisla.ture once we ar half way along. We think we will have much less oppo Uion to a change in the law after it has been applied to half the counties.
MRo THRASHER: Does the Department of Education, or Board of Education propose to advocate such a change in the law as that?
D COLLINS: Ye , sir. D 0 PURCELL: Yes, air. LT0 -COY0 VANDIVER: Further questions? MRo MELTON: Yes, sir; I ha e a question. LTo -GOVo VANDIVER: Mr. 1elton. MR. MELTON: Dr. Purcell, returning to the visiting teachers again. or e supervisors: Is it not so that as the teachers improve their degrees and experience. and thus improve their salaries. does that not help improve themselves in teaching? DRo PURCELL: Yes, sir; we think. so. MRo MELTON: Does it not -- I am not trying to put words in your Inouth. I am trying 0 phrase this as a question. Would that not also tend to red ce the neces ity of instructional supervisors and help to the inexperienced teachers? ORo PURCELL~ We would think !!IO. but I think similar to business. just like any other usiness. when you move into the size of the admi istrative unit. you have wor for men. and you have assistant super. tend nts, and yOll have other people. I think the same business principles

i . e nou

you

tat'%" h .B t 'ch t t. 'YO ca .. specialize in certain

jobs. such 9 they har e in Atlanta, an a istant superintendent in c ar e of

business nffai 9 f there is one in charge of co~st1uction. one in chaloge of Borne other plw.. e 0 the p og_am. I think the size .f the unit has --

~ MELTON: That i at xactly the point I am getting a.t,

doctor. Th .0' tIm getting at is tho s: I be .ieve that the standar sand

<J,ualificatiollll ' f our faculties all over the State a14 e generally impi"oving o ar they not?

DR" PURCELL' Ye sir.

Ml MELTO : Throu h improved degrees, and improved ex-

~ ie ce, and eo Oil, which entitle -- whic qualify them to higher salaries.

The point I m eUing QI,t is thia~ Are we b:r.ingin in ao many new, inex-

periencec. ter-chers tha.t we conti ue to x-equb:e closer supervision, or that

we con iIJ ue to require do er as i Wnce in planning the program, or does

it se ro, On th ~ futur , a.s the people co tinue to improve themselves,

he g~ner' 1 lev 1. f the fae'J.1ties, is it possib e~ 01' would it be pOBsible

to rc 'ce ti e >'stru.:tional supervision? In ot er wo da, alao, arcnrt

the t:, pe ....r.> ," otay:=:tg with the cho 15 t gene ally speaking, or are we los-

ing thew. . ;. the top .r. d bl" gin in newr inexperie ced teac era so con-

stantly tha. w r.:o:n9.;a12tly r ~quire c1 5

rvisi 11 and will have to co ~

t~ ue with it '?

D PUR SF I. ~ Eighteen year ag t..""e seniors .for this ye r

Ne?e bOT',l; CI.r..d :~2 ~::'E' ag the)' started to c~ ! - ~ 64,000 starte to school. Abou' ~6b 0 0, 2~OOO wlli f" ia high cool. The others have

dropped out al n the way dur On th t 12-year eriod. MRo MELTO : That till is ot the point I am etting t. DR. PURCELL: But, to me, I thi a we become better quali-
fied to do the job. we still will have need for people to help wi the supervision and administration of schools, just as we would in the rection of a building, to use an engineer, or some person, to see that t e contractor complies with the specifications. I think we need a certain type of supervision to see that the State funds and the local fund are used to good advantage.
MRo MELTON: Regardless of the improved quality of the faculty, then, you are of the opinion we will continue to need supervision more or less as we have now, and assistants to these teachers, to improve that even more?
DR. PURCELL: I think so; yes, siro LTo -GOV. VANDIVER: Any further questions? I have in my hand, here, a telegram from Mr. Denmark Groover, in which he asks this question -- I think it would come within your province to answer: "HOW MUCH DID THE ADDITION OF THE TWELFTH GRADE ADD TO THE COST OF OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM? HOW MUCH COULD BE SAVED BY MAKING TWELFTH GRADE A VOLUNTARY VOCATIONAL COURSE RATHER THAN A COMPULSORY TWELFTH GRADE?" DRo PURCELL: Well, there were 25,404 aeniors, I believe, last year, and that certainly would require a thousand teachers, on the high

91

schooll el. d ~.t h rate of $3,000 per teacbe i WOt d un ze ble

s . 1 believe about 3~ OOO~ 000.

MRo THRASHER: Plus your $500 per teacher, you hav to add to

it.

DRo PURCELL: The $300 for current op ra.ting expen e and

$200 per capita outla.y. That would be $3,500,000 for the twelfth grade.
. LT 0 -GOV 0 VANDIVER: or the second part of the questi

"HOW MUCH COULD BE SAVED BY MAKING TWELFTH GRADE

A VOLUNTARY VOCATIONAL COURSE..

1"

Do you have any idea about that?

DR o PURCELL: No, sir; 1 wouldnVt know how t e timate what

per cent of it. I presume this matter of whether the twelfth gr de is a

desirable thing, it is something 1 think the General A sembly felt when they

passed the Act, that our children were entitled to it since all other stat 8
-
in the nation have twelfth grade schools, and then since labor law prohibit

more youngsters from starting to work until 18 -- if it's a certain type

business -- and if they finish schools at 15 or 16 they have a couple years

in there before they can start to work, in some industry; those on the farm

can always go to work, but the thing I am thinking about as we move in

toward training our people to be more technical in the skills in demand for

the industries which come in here, it seems certainly we should have e

twelfth grade, and I think we are providing more vocational -- mol' voca-

tional work in these larger schools, much more technical work, that woul

be helpful to the se people and yet, at the same tim , giving t em all the

chance to go to the twelfth year.

92 COOK: r. Chair an. LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: Mr. Cook. MR. COOK: I would like to know what y ur version i , or what you mean by voluntary vocational -LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: I read the question fr m his telegram. I presume he meant, from the context of the fir t part of his ql e tion, that we revert to eleven grades and make the twelfth grade voluntary. MRo COOK: In other worda, not to come under the compulsory attendance law as to age? I presume he ha no reference to the fisca.l problem; that is, the cost to the school. He didn't mean that they would voluntarily pay their way through. LT. -GOV VANDIVER: I don't believe that is w at he inte ed. MR. HAWKINS: Mr. Chairman. LT. -GOVo VANDIVER: Mr. Hawkins. MR. HAWKINS: Dr. Purcell, did you actually add a twelfth grade, or did you sandwich in another grade between the ele entary schools and the high school? DR. PURCELL: The entire 4-year high school curriculum was revised, and revised upward, it is my understanding. The eighth grade program of study was revised, and as that group moved up to the ninth, the program of study was again revised, and some of the subjects that are now taught in the twelfth grade were taught in the eleventh heretofore; but I think practically 011 of the instructional materials throughout the nation, as they are prepared and published, are on the 8 - 4 basis, and so the youngsters here were studying twelfth grade material in our eleventh grade,

93 and we have enr iched t e program in the twelfth ye r, but it is not nece sarily an addition at the top, but a revision all the ay u
MRG HAWKINS: Then it is all the way along, instead of being sandwiched in at any point; is that correct?
DR" PURCELL: Yes, sir. MR. HAWKINS: And if we should go back to eleven grades it would mean a corresponding reduction aU along the line, rather than cutting off the twelfth year; is that correct? DR. PURCELL: Yes; we would need to revise the course of study all the way along, in order to provide for necessary mathematics courses and others that would have to be put in. MR. HAWKINS: Yes. MR" STRICKLAND: Mr. Chairman. LT. -GOV" VANDIVER: Mr. Strickland. MR. STRICKLAND: Are you familiar with your minimum requirements for a teacher, say in the elementary schools? What degrees do you require? DR" PURCELL: Mr. Lester, who works with certification, is scheduled to appear this afternoon. If you will, I would appreciate your asking Mr. Lester that question. He understands it much better than I do. MRo STRICKLAND: Let me ask you this: Was the total amount of money, $60, 000, 000, that you will need? DR. PURCELL: I think our estimate is $58, 000, 000. MR. STRICKLAND: $58, 000, 000 for four years? DR. PURCELL: $13,000, 000 the first year .... on top of the

MR o ST 1'"; ),L~.NJ: T"~ fi .:it ei.r itD d .5,000,00. DR. PRELL: Ye us 13,0 : 000 ddit' 1. MRo TRI ..KLA D: T atla 2,0 0,000 for 's year. DR. PURe LL: T~ t' ri ht; ye . MR. STRICKLAND: I mean, for t ne fiscal year. And that&s to take ca.re of 3 , 00 1 e at dents. DR. PURCELL: A to ra.:.se teo e .. atin co t9 from $300 per pu il 0 $400 per p il, an to t .:e ca. e of the deficit. M STRIC ~L.AND: Isn't t at ~ I' .th r high pe cen: a for 30,000 against th se already U'l school? DR. PURCELL: W t we ~ve in rnL"1d. ther ar 8. ~ t2ac le s that were on last year and n t al ott d" s 'ear. W ~ere hoping to catch up on 350. 501 e of those, plus 1150 teach ra for tho s 30,0 0 stude ts. Our actual ratio for "hites, on avera e dail attendance, was 1 teacher throug the -- throughout the en i:re t te, for 2.6 1/2 pu 'ls, daily attendance, and if we apply Z6 1/1. pupils to 30,00 , we l'1eed 1150 teachers, plus a part of this acklog of 85 that we were not able to allot this year. We had to cut strai ht across the bo r , all the s ~at ms, an we think at least 350 or 400 of LlJ.oae are badly ne ded and should be allotted next year. MR. STRICKLAr;tD: If you allot on the basis of students in school right n ~ , and next fa 1 y u ve 30,00 m re stud nts e te mg, who is going to te ch t oae 30,0 01 DR. PURCELL: The local aya ems hay to pay t at increased

95 cost.
MRo STRICKLAND: They have to absorb tha DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir. MR. STRICKLAND: If you need Z8, 000, 000 this year. you figure you will need 58, 000,000 for the whole four }reare? DR. PURCELL: We think the subsequent years will rl\ about $10,000,000 a year. MR. STRICKLAND: You figure you will have 1200,000 more students in school four years from now, than now? DR. PURCELL: Yes, sir. The children are here in the State. now. We know from the birth rate, these chUdren under six years of age; we know they are coming. MR. THRASHER: Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Strickland a question? LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: Yes, sir. MR. THRASHER: Did you say $58,000, 000 for the four years? MR. STRICKLJ,.ND: That's what I was asking. MR. THRASHER: 208, 000, 000 the first year, 38,000, 000 the second year, 48, 000, 000 the third year, 58,000, 000 the fourth year; you have to add that all together. MR" STRICKLAND: I understood him to say $58, 000, 000 for the four years. DR. PURCELL: $58, 000, 000 increase over the present budget. MRo STRICKLAND: Letls get back at this again. 30, 000 new students a year.

96
DRo p e L : YefJ, at MR. STR CKL.ll.ND: And f Ul" e rs froln now you will have 120, 000 more studente. T .at will make you right at 1,000,000 stud nt , compared with -- wht ie it, eight hundred thousa d ;3 thing now? DR o PURCELL: 873, 8~3. MR. STRICKLAND: And itea going to take 60/fe more money four years from now to take ca.re of only lO~, more students? DR. PURCELL: $15,000,000 is in our program now; L"1 the Deficit Appropriation. MR. STRICKL.AND: Doctor, a lot of people ask me -- and maybe 1 don't understand it -- about four years ago we doubled the amount of money for education. That's for colleges and the grade lilcho le. No-VI it looks like if you are going to get what you say you need, you will have to increase it by 500/0 more four years from now. A lot of people ask me: "How in the world did we get along four years ago?" What can I tell them? DR D PURCELL: Well, we did without a lot of the things we have today. MR. STRICKLAND: A great state requires four major things: Good educational program, good highways, good health and a reasonable amount of welfare. Don't you think a good state needs all four, rather than
.all of it going into one?
DR. PURCELL: I certainly do; yes, sir. MR. STRICKLAND: I wouldn't agree all the money should go to the Highway Department, although I know we need a lot of work in the High

1 way De artment.
ORo PURCELL: We think when the rural roads are pavedp it will cut down the cost of 0 erating busses. We see a savings th reo
MRo STRICKLAND: Well, that wouldn't be but a small per cent of the amount we are talking about.
1 wonder this: I understand you have -- say u: a oy 01' girl
gets a Z-year college certUicate; he is eligible to te~ch; is that rig t? ORo PURCELL: Tha.t's the minimum; yeSl, sir. MRo STRICKLAND: What is their salary? DRc> PURCELL: The profesl'Jionally trained, $ZZ04 -MR. STRICKLAND: In other words, if a girl goes to college
for two years and gets a certificatej now what can she start t work eaching at, in an average county?
DR. PURCELL: I passed the schedule out. Annual Salal'y Schedule, professional trained, two years, salary starts at 1100.
MR o STRICKLAND: $1700. DR. PURCELL: Three years college, $1900j four years college, $Z400. MR. STRICKLAND: 18 it necessary to have a 4-year college degree to teach the elementary schoole? ORo PURCELL: We think so. MRo STRICKLAND: Why? Why do you think so? ORo PURCELL: The children in the first grade are more dependent OD the tea.cher than anybody else in the school, and the first grade chi Id Deeds more teach helpj more real instruction; a better qualified per-

98

son, th any other part of t 1e school' l'

yare the Ie at able to

help themselves, and we think the be t te chers s uld be in the first ra e,

MR. STR CKLAND: Can't a per on be human without bein a

Ph.D. ?

ORo PURCELL: Certainly. I know very ew Ph.D'e.

MR. STRICKLAND: They don't te ch very difficult subjects in

the elementary gradel. If you could make that starting sal ry, with a Z-

year certificate, a little higher, you would attract more people into teach-

ing, and you would save mo. ey, it occurs to me. You don't think people

with a 2-year certificate are qualified to tea h the first grade just as well

as a person who has finished a 4-year course?

DRo PURCELL: We use a great many of them, sir; ut w think

a 4-year teacher is -- well, we just think she i better. We think the

standard program for the teaching profession should be based on a 4-y ar

college education.

MR. STRICKLAND: I am wondering if we are getting a little bit

beyond, you might say, being practical. What is happeneing to these

teachers -- I know there are a lot of good ones that don't go to summer

school and don't get these extra degrees. Do they get raises, too?

ORo PURCELL: They do on the basis of experience; yes, sir.

As they teach an additional number of years, through the tenth year, they

get additional pay for experience.

MRo STRICKLAND: Suppose in a period of five to ten years

every teacher you have got ,ot a Ph. D. degree; how much more would that

cost the State?

99

R a PU ELL: \Ve have no C Medt e f. r Ph. .; not . g beyo d

five years of colI gee 780/0 of our teac' Ol'S now ha e fou y rs of training,

and they are mav' g up at the rate of 4 ela year in their qualuic tions.

And so about five years from no\\" the teaching profe sion aho
I
of them should have Bachelor's degrees.

be -- most

MR. THRASHER: Mr. Chairman.

LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: Mr. Thrasher.

MRo THRJA.sHER: How many teachers did you have last year in

the system with Z-year c rtificates, an how many do you "'ve this year?

DR. PURCELL: I don't have that exact information. But we

wUl be glad to furnish you that.

LT. -GOV0 VANDIVER: 1 understood there were approxiu-mte y

300 last year. and almost 1300 this year?

MR. THRASHER: 2-year certificates?

LT.-GOV. VANDIVER: Yes, sir.

MR. THRASHER: In white teachers there were Z07l in 1953

and 1734 in 1954. They dropped in their 2-year certificates.

Now the ones that are dropping faat are the I-year and county-

license teachers. There were 1062 of those in 1945; there are 100 of them

in 1954 under the I-year county license, and 1253 white teachers and only

240 today in that lower class. In other words, they have dropped off and

gone up.

LT.. -GOV. VANDIVER: And increased their qualifications.

MR. THRASHER: Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, I would like for

Mr. Strickland's information, there, if you wUl talte lZO,OOO children and

100 multiply by the pr ent per ca ita CC);:so of $157 ....er a , :yould C09t y u $18,800,000 to do that. You dd your $15,000,000 alre- y run..'1ing in debt to that -- in the deficit to that, makes $33~ 00 ,000. Then when you add your tremendous increa.se in transportation, which wUl run to 10 million, and the tremendous increase in the cost of maintainin tneoe new bu' ding3, which runs to sixteen, you come out to $58,000,000. In other words, there are three items; wcr""ased load, increase in transportation eC"use of consolidated schools, and increased cost of buildings.
MR. STRICKLAND: I would like to a k you o~_e more ques ion. Of the $109,000,000 -- out of the expenditure of $109,000,000 you don't think there is a single dollars worth of economy that can e effected without hurting needed service?
DR. PURCELL: I think it is possible to effect some economlesp but those economies would have to take place in Atlanta, and in Fulton County, and on the local level, primarily.
MRo STRICKLAND: We talked a lot about these supervisors. Have the supervisors ever effected an economy in Jonesboro, Georgia?
DR. PURCELL: Well, I think the principal benefit has come in helping those children, when you test the reading ability of a child and when you see children who have been under good supervision able to achieve a grade and a-half' in one year, when others in schools havenOt had good supervision fail to achieve even one year's reading abUity. I thiI'lt your efficiency comes. and benefits from supervi ion comes in helping teachers
to increase in effectiveness on the job with the pupil hmself
.As Dr. Collins points out, when you help the children to make a

10 ye r, you cut down on rep i:.t t r tar at on' school, keep c ildr from having to repeat the ra ee, and things 0 th t typ .
LT" -GOV" VANDIVER: Mr. OVerb MRo OVERBY: Dr. Purcell, I wonder if you could give me estimate of how much savin s could be effected by eliminating the supervisors and visiting school teachers? DRo PURCELL: If you eUmin ted all of it? Throu hout the entire State? MRo OVERBY: Yes. ORo PURCELL: We said this morning, 90 Jean8s teachers, 63 instructional supervisors; I believe. MR. OVERBY: Just an estimate, is all I wanted, 0 all of them. DR. PURCELL: It would be less than a million and a-half dollars. MRo OVERBY: For the year? DR .. PURCELL: Yes, sir. MR. TIlRASHER: Mr. Chairman, to get back again to those supervisors: Wouldn't you -- you have 150 of th m now. WouldnDt the State be much better off if the State Department had those upervisors and had them in areas and say we could get along with 75 or 100, rather than 150 of them? Couldnt they accomplish their results by them being on a State level and assigned to certain areas? DR. PURCELL: 1 think you are t inking of a similar se -up to our Regional Library program, where one person works in a region

02 throu h more than on ter ito
MR. THRASHER: In other words, could we do it with 10 ~here we are doing it with 150 now?
DRe PURCELL: I think you could do a certain type job. I don't believe it would be as effective a job as it is now. But I think it would be better than not having any supervision. But, fr.nkly, we have tri d to get systems to work together on the employment f visiting teac erg. I do 't mind mentioning Clay County and Quitman County; two very small counties. We asked if they couldn't join together in the employment of one ~ereon, and it's satisfactory to one, and unsatisIactol'y to the other; so finally they ask that the situation be dissolved and we allot them money on a half-time basis. So much of these units would rc.ther operate on a part-time basis, than be combined. with some other unit.
Most of the school systems prefer to be loca.l in their operations, and to maintain their own policies and regulations.
DR. COLLINS: 1 would like to say this, Mr. Ch Orman. LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: Dr. Collins. DR. COLLINS: If they are put on State payrolls, rather than local payrolls, that would be concentration in Atlanta, and 1 am against too much concentration in Atlanta, or Washington, either! 1 believe in local economy. LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: Are there any further questions? DR. PURCELL: Thank you, gentlemen. LT. -GOVo VANDIVER: Thank you very much, Dr. Purcell. DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Claude. In introduc ing the next man, I would like to say this: 1 do not have

103 am n on my otaff, or a OJ man eith r, who ade p lic ti n for their jobs. I just saw som body out there doin at 1 th t we a au erb job and opened the door of the church and invited them to come in a they w d.
I am glad to present now, Mr. Co S. Hubb rd, Te boo 8 and Library man.
MRo HUBBARD: Mr. Chairman, lady and gentlemen of the Committee. I appreciate very much this opportunity of dillc asion .,1th ou as to the work for which 1 am responsible.
Before I forget it, I would like to say this: I would like to invite each of you, either as an individual or as a sub-committee, or as a Committee aa a whole, to visit our textbook and library division any time that you can. We would be glad to show you just what we are doing, and how we r doing it, and give you any information that's available over there, and we would be most happy to have you.
There are lots of dEtails that are impossi Ie to go into in the very limited time we have avaUable here. I know your time is very importante and you are making a s~<rrifice to do this job. But if you do have an opportunity, well, we would like to have you come by.
Now the Division of Instruction Materials and Library Service i charged with the responsi ility of providing textbooks and library material for the children attending the public schools of the State, providin library materials for the rural libraries of the State; it serves both the youth and adults; furnishing films, records, tape-recordings for the schools and e public libraries; providing library and cataloguing service for both sc ools and public libraries; providing a book loan service to schools and public

10 li raries; and to i div'dua. '.. here'" pn ic l'bra y is not v Ua.bl i and istributing Braille d' !king books to t e blind; and l.'nish' g con u t.a.tive services in all of the e fields.
The General Assembly, in 1935 passed an act, re olution, Ie ving it to & referendum, which stated whether or not the sale of alcoholic beverages should be legalized, and on May 15th of th t year, thi Act approved by a vote of the people. The Act provided that ny funds, any taxes raised {rom the sale of alcoholic bevere.gee should be allocated to the public school fund for the purpose of furnishing free textbooks and other instructions materials.
In 1937 the General Assembly levied a tax upon the sale of wine, and allocated that tax for the purpose of textbooks and library mate... ia!.
Acting under the authority of that law, Governor Ta m ge mad the first textbooks available free to the peoples in 1936. It provided textbooks in the field of rea.ding, writing, pelling, and arithmetic f r the first three gudes.
Then in 1937 the Legislature passed what we know as the free textbook law, which made it mandatory upon the State Bo~.rd of Education to provide textbooks free to all the chUdren attending the public schools of this State. They have been doing that ever since the inauguration of the complete program in the early faU of 1937.
The following year the State Board of Education made some funds available out of this allocated fund for school llbrary purposes. It was set up on a matching basis. that an allocation was ma e to each sch 01 system based upon the number of state-albcated teach r. d the State would put

o

$2 into the pure

booka f

schoo sy tern, up 0 t e anlO of the loc.,..t' n to at pat'ticula cal

sch 01 system. That program has b en o' on c ntinu usly ever a1.. ceo

In 19 3 the State Libr ry Commission .. - we had a Sta e Library

Commission at that time that '-"d supervision ove 11 of th

ari

of the State. They provided aan service and a refere c service, d at

the re uest of t at Comrilis i the Ger.era_ A sembI)' a oli hed it. By the

way, so far as Ilmow that's the only Commission I know 0 in the history of

the State that bas ever been -- ever a.sked to be & oUshed a' d their powers

and duties transferred to 80me other agency. But thatls what hilppened to

them in 1943; that they be abolished and their powers, duties, and. respon-

sibilities be transferred to the Sta.te Board f Educa ion. The GeneI'al

Assembly pasged that, and the State Board t ok over a cons tati e service,

the fumis ing of materials and the supervision of the public li 1'a ie of e

State. It is commonly known thr u hout the State as the Rural Library

Program, because it does provide library services to a of the countie in

the State today except two.

Now some of those services are better than other services, but

as a whole we are providing some sort of library service to the adult popu~

lation as well as your school population throughout the State.

Georgia has more regiona, library regions, or mul.tiple county

library programs than any state in the union. What 1 mean by that, where

two or more counties -- and we have as many as four counties in some of

these regions, and they pool their local resources, as well as State re-

sources. in order to prOVide a better and a m re economical library service

106 to :he people of that rea.
1 ~ uld ike to rna e this e_:planc~tion Jdg.1t ow: there i~ no di tinction made because of races.
The following will give you Borne idea of th grawt 01 the public library program ince the State Bo r f Educa ion ha had c rge of it. In 1943, for instance, we had one region serving 43 c unf-ies. Last year we had 26 regions serving 72. counties. We now ha e about 28 regions, I think~ sel'ving 80 counties. We had 30 c unty-wide 1i raries in 1943. We now have 79.
The local libraryappropri tion -- now thi' i the a ropriation on the part of the local school systems an count systems - - a increased from 483,000 to $1,520,576 in 1953. 1 am sorry I do not ha e a complete report for 1954.
In 1943 we had 25 au omobi1ea in operation~ and today -- b okr410bUes -- and today we ave 49. w all of these oolano i e, have been purchased out of local riloney. The local library boards p reha e th ir own bookmobile s.
Then in 1947 we started the audio-visual program. F de coming out of the special allotment made by the Qen ra1 Assem ty for the purpose; and it was in the fall of 1947 that we established our first visual aid library. In that year we served 325 schools with a.bout lOt 000 films. Last year we served 1189 schools with a total of 145,348 films.
We have a library located here in Atlanta. one at Macon, one at Tifton, one at Statesbo 0 or Collegeboro~ in order to m :!:e adeq ately and economically serve the schools.

107

t e bu g t t at was l'!1

hy lr, urcell ou ce ther

th amount th t we.. alloc t d for hcae

e- en 'tur s.

Let me go back just a m me t, pi a . In 19 1 t~.-a ity f

Atlanta. prior to th t time, had been providing a d' tri u io... ~ ...rvice of

Braille and talking book for the blind people of this State, It had be orne

quite a burden to the City of Atlanta, since they w re erving all of the

blind throughout the State. Th y came before the tate Board, together

with the representatives irom the blind people -~ I believe the Organization

hI' the Blind, or somet ing. and ask d the State oard of Educ tion to take

over that service. Now the materials themselves are fu.lnished by the

Federal Government. So is the postage and tl-a."1SPO? ation costs on them.

Our State cost is just the housing and personnel COGt, and a.t the request

of those agents. as mentioned, well, the State Board took that over an we

are now furnishing the Braille books and the talking boo_ s to all the bUn

of the State who request it.

Now the State Board -- every book that ha ev l' ee ado,pted y

the State Board of Education, has been upon the recommendation of a

profe sional textbook committee_ That committee is composed of 911per-

intendents, principals. teachers, and instructional supervisors actively

engaged in the public school work. They have no knowledge of the co~t of

that book as they examine it. Only the State Board of Education has the

bids on it. And they exam'ne and evaluate these books and recommend t __

the State Board what should be adopted. In very i..~atance the professional

textbook committee has recommended a multiple listing of text oaks. That

is, they have insisted that the best books available be made available to

108

the ch'ld- ~n of t_ ~s 5t te; ",

eve y cas ~ State Boa~' of catio

has follows the recommc:n a"icms of ita

s,;' ona text>.>ook conunittee.

Now he cost of textboo ~13 in Ge rgia today is at.. av rage of 2. 43

per pupil. If you break that down. that8 s approxi ately . 2'1 a month per

pupil, or 1. 4~ per pupil a school da.y. We are now spendbg 5~ a mont

per pupil for library books. We are spending 1. 4~ per m(~nth p r capita

for public library boo s. We hope that some da.y orne additional funds

might be found whereby thls fund might be mCl"ea d a litte bit. The

estimate made by Dr. Collins and Dr. Purce 1 as to t1 e a~'nount needed for

the neh~ four years represented only the anticipated i.ncrec:,ae in enrollment

in your public school program. Since th~.t time other states have made

adoptions in textbooks, and from the ir.1ormation that they have furn'shed

us, the cost has gone up about Z5% since the State made its last option.

The State Board enters into a contract for theae bools for a

period of five years. There is a clause in the contract gives them a l'ight

to extend that contract for two years, if it so desire, and the State Bo rd

is taking full advantage of that option Cl.nd is saving the State several

hundred thousand dollars by ISO doing.

Now to meet the increased cost of the price of textbooks and

library materials, I think we certainly could use to an advantage at least 5~ per month per pupil per textbooks.

MR. WELCH: You state you saved the State by that action you

just mentioned? How do you save the State?

MRo HUBBARD: We are getting them now, the textbook in the

field of social science, adopted in 1950 at 1950 prices, which expires June

109

30th of hie year.

, if we W"'ttt intO! a n w cont1'3,C bu in'" the same

rnaterials that we are' uying to ay Oil 1950 price ware avmg at leas

25% on the actual present cost of tex books. I other w . s. if we went

int a new contract and let this one expire and rna' e a new adopti n. they

would cost 25 to 40% ore than we are paying for it.

MRo COOl<: In other words the option in your c ntract for a

Z-year renewal saves that 2.5%.

MR. HUBBARD: Thatis right. They extend d the contract last

year in the field of readin and literat e for a 2.-year period. and they ex-

tended the contract this year in the f.ield of social science, and wise y so.

MRo WELCH: That is just purely contractual rig ts that you

have.

MRo HUBBARD: Ce tainly. MR. WELCH: Where you save -- to illustrate, i textbooks had

gone down in price y u would have lost. under your theory.

MRo HUBBARD: No. We wouldn8t have extended the contrac . And. by the way, there is another clause in that cont act that ~ivea the

State Board of Education the right to terminate any year during the lie of

that contract, upon 90 daysR notice to the publisher, too. I believe thatUa

right.

LTo -QOVa VANDIVER: Mr. Hubbard~ is it true that this pto-

fessional textbook committee, to which you made reference. can appr ve

several books for the teaching of a single course that would give the teacher

the option to cho se whichever one of those books he preferred?

MR. HUBBARD: Yes, sir; that~s right.

110 IVER: VI uld there ot be an ~co!lomy, rc ucing that opt'on, of say four or five boo' , to teach f" e same COUl'se; would there not be an economy by reducing that to one or two in order that 'you could buy in greater quantities? MRo HUBBARD: Mr. Chairman, the only ay the State Board of Education buys any books is upon the requis iUnn of the superintendents of the various local sc 001 systems, and under your multiple l's ings you give to what -- what 1 mean by multiple list" .,s is listing all of the better books that are available, in order to give the local school system 0 there, through its committees, the privilege and the right to s lect from t..lle State list the books that will best fit their needs. Now when it comes to prices. it doesnit make any difference whether it's a single listing or a multiple liat' g. The State of Georgia can buy them at the same time, at the same price, regardless of the price of listing 0 LTo-GOVo VANDIVER: Then there would be no economy in the making of large purchases. MRo HUBBARD: Absolutely noto LT0 -GOVo VANDIVEft: Than over a single book. MR. HUBBARD: Every state has some kind of a contract with publishers, whether they furnish free textbooks or not, and in every contract there is a clause that says that if they sell at book, and in Georgia~<J contract it says if they offer to sell that book to anybo y else in this country less than what they are selling it to the State of Georgia, they have got to automatically reduce that price to what they offer to sell i.t to the other

1

felow.

LTo GOVo VA VE :

t y c unt1-, for instance, I was ta k-

ing to the principal of the chool and he r u ~lt up is p tnt: e stated

t1 a in one class in the school' the town of La.vania th y taug t out of a

certain book at was on the ap rov d list. In a neighbt)l" ~g tOVIn in the

same county different teacher used a different book for the tea hing of

that same subject. Now in the ev nt that you had 60 at ents' a class in

Lavonia and 40 in a class "1 the neig boring town, and tb follow ng year

you had a ratio of 50 to 50; then y u ave got to byte ne ill books and dis-

card old - - ten old books,

MRo HUBBAR : ot for the 5uperint nde two is looking after

his job. All he does is transfer those ten s rplus books from one school

down to where he ha got a sho tage in another.

LTo-GOVo VANDIVER: It is not being don at the pre ent ime.

MR. HUBBARD: There are many advanta ea, a the school

people will point 0 t to you, in the rna ter of the multiple listing of text-

books. In the fir t place, fol' some reason the Lord never made any' two

of s alike, and a applies to teachers and chUdren. Ther is a iifer-

ent a proach in many of OUI' books to th~ subject. One of those approac f:S

might appeal to a teacher in one school and be just the opposite to a teacher in a other school. ecause teachers vary, and their tra' ings vary in tll

various colleges and teacher-trai ing institutions.

MR. THRASHER: Let me in errupt. You r ught that point up;

that th teachers vary. Suppose you have a history teacher in a county

at likes one history book. She leaves and comes t tlanta to teac d

I 1.

you get another tea er tha lik s anothe1: his", ry book. Now where are

you?

-
MRo HUBBARD: That is one of the big tiro lems 'e had during

the war when we had to take everybody a a teacher. We had several sys-

terns who had to tra e books p in order to hire teachers, bee use that

particular teacher happened to be familiar ith a cel"tain boo and didn8t

want to get familiar with another.

MRo THRASHER: HoVi do you meet that now?

MRo HUBBARD: They t 11 t em to look somewhere el e for a

job; because most of the school systems today have their profeasional

committees on the locallevelp and after the State Board of Education makes

its adoptionjJ then the local school systems have their profession 1 commit-

tees to examine and recommend books to the coun boardsjJ or city boards

of educationjJ d they et up a list of books for use in that county.

MRo THRASHER: That brings up another question that the

Lieutenant-Governor has raised. 'Why can't the State Board, though, say:

Here are three books of history. The State is paying for them. Why callWt

they say: ow here are three books. Now you can have anyone of those

you want. Why canit you cut down on that individual selection by estab ish-

lng. say, three books or two books?

MRo HUBBARD: May I an wer that by asking a ques ion? What

is the advantage in limiting the t achers out here in he local field of having

the opportunity of exalnining six books rather than three?

MR. THRASHER: Just for what you said. If you have six booksjJ

you are likely to have six changes in teachers rather than three.

/
113 MR. HUBBARD: N , I said that a he pract' , It was e pract' ceo It h' d to be w en teachers were so shorte when you I. ad to hire anybody to stay over there. She might have been a aby- itter, MRo THRASHER: You say, now, suppose you have six books in history. There are so many companies that eup ly those books. You mean to say if you had three books in history, and some one com any wa going to get twice as many books as they would under that ix, you mean to say you wouldnQt get any better price on it? MRo HUBBARD: You wouldn't save a di e. It could cost yo moreo In other w rds, the professional text ok committ e on the State level could recommend six United States Histories, let's ay, and the State Board of Education m'ght decide to list the three highest-priced books on this list. That would eliminate any superintendent or any 1 cal syste from selecting either one of the other three. MRo THRASHER: Why wouldnR the State list the lowest-priced books that would do the job? Why would it list the highest-price ? MR. HUBBARD: For the simple fact, like we do when we go to buy anything for ourselves: They want the very best. You go into a clothing store. they have got suits that run from $30 up to $125, and you pick ut the very beet you can get for your money. MR. TIIRASHER: That donOt hold true. b cau e you have certain folks go and buy $25 suits, and others who go and buy $200 suits. MR. HUBBARD: But those W 0 buy the $25 suits haven't got the money to buy the $50 or 75. MR. THRASHER: That's what I'm raising right now.

14
MRo un AR : Wei, t is mone 's a locate , all of it is
allocated, Mr. Thra er, d entlem n g and 1 y of the ommit , on a pe -pupil basis.
You have raised the quest'oD, there, that lover ok d a whi ago that is important. In the allocation of your t xtbook funds it is set up on a per-pupil basis, according to grade, and an allocation is made of it to every school system on the ba is of equality of every student, regardle 8 of race. Your uperintendent is notified, then, 0 the arno t of fl: ds that is set up to his credit, and he can r quisition books in any manner, any quantity, any time he deems necessary for his school, up to the mount of his allotment.
MRo THRASHER: That brings up another point, nON. Suppose it was recommended the State Board of Education adopt not over ree books; History or any subject; how would hat affect the school systems9 operations if we did limit it to a restricted number; sa of thr-ee?
MR. HU BARD: Righ at the present time it would be difficult to say, Mr. Thrasher, but say we have six United States Histories on the list today; and suppose we went into adoption and removed thr e of the books from the list. Then those systems that are using the books that are removed from the II t would have to go over and buy some of the other books. It wouldn't e able to buy a few books for fill-in purposesg but would have to buy a ditional books.
MR o THR SHER: Do you have any requirement whatsoever that requires the school system to use whatever books they adopt for any given period 0 time?

115

M 0 HARD: eSt air. U til hey wear out.

M THRASHER: In

words. once they say: This i he

History; they stick with that History?

MRo HUBBARD: Occasionally they have changes p but it is the

exception. rather than the rule.

MRo THRASHER: In other words. once t ey say: This i the

History we are going to teach --

MRo HUBBARD: Yes, sir. For instance, they say: This is

the Arithmetic we want thro ghout our elementary 0ch 018. it is very

seldom they ever c ange from that series of Arithmetic over to another

series.

MRo THRASHER: When they adopt an Arithmetic. does that

Arithmetic apply to every school in there; or does every school have a

different Arithmetic ?

MRo HUBBARD: Thclt ould depend up n your s stem. You take here. in the City of Atlanta. it has ev ry varia io I think. in its

educational program. a8 you will find in the State program. unle it is

typically a rural situation.

MRo THRASHER: Let me ask you another question. If that is going to happen, where you have a History over here. and another His ory

over here; suppose the kid mo es from one side of town to the ther; are

you going to throw him into a new book to study? If they move. say in the

middle of the year?

MRo HUBBARD: That could happen - - and the truth of it .8 it cost the State of Georgia around a hundred thousand dollars to investiga e

6

that 1939; do you'" mer?

MR. THRAS R: What did you rout?

MR. HU ARD: That it was just ta.lk. hen hi oy mo ed

from one side of Augusta, Georgia over to the other 8i e, and protes e to

the Legislature. The State oard of Educati n

orne of the

folks to come up here. Come to find t, it wa just becauBe ey were

using different Geo raphies in the sc 001 he last went to than the one he

was first registered in.

MR o THRASHER: WonBt that happen were a student gets used

to a certain type textbook, and he is switched into a completely new on ?

MRo HUBBARD: I say, it could happen, yes; b t if eyare

using -- take the City of Atlanta, here. Say they are using thre different
o eographies - - since tha wa mentioned. It i impo sible to keep just

the exact number of Geographie8 on han of an one kind, and a student

move from one school to another, in all probabili he has got a extra

Geography there for him. 1 he turns in the boo he is u in , they issue

him one he is going to use in the other school.

MR. THRASHER: DoesnOt that allow, hough, the local Boa ds

! Bducation to ind of pia with the textbooks that they use?

MR. HUBBAR : I don't know what you mean by "play".

MRo THRASHER: I mean they will have some textbook salesme

who wi 1 come to them and say: Now this is the book you ought to buy.

They sell them on it. Then the next go~round some other textbook man

comes in with a good sales talk and convinces him: No; that is no the one.

Here is a better book. What happens in those cases?

11

MR. HJB D: 1 do 0 thtr. anything . e that happens, now,

Mr Thrasher; eca 8e y ur yste has et up a profe ~8ional c mmi tee;

just like the St te 0 rd of Ed c ti do

the St te level; and they take

all of the books that are on the State list and they recommend fro that
list to the local ards the books that s ould b used in t i r h 01 sys-

terns.

MR. THRASHER: Su ase a text

man goe aro d an

calls on a 1 th me her f that Committee and gets the s :vitc ed

around.

MR. HUBBARD: He migh go c II on m, and et them 0

adopt his particular ok. There is no way that you can ke e human

equasion out of any transaction with another human being.

MRo THRASHER: How many ook are in stoc no that are

not being used by school children becau e of the fact th t they are not on

the list?

MRo HUBBARD: The greatest number of books, in my opinion

-- and I havenUt got these figures; 1 a just expressing an opinion -- the

greatest number of unused books in the State of Georgia today re some

that were purchased in quantity a few years ago and distributed with ut

requisition on the part of the superinten ent. They didn9t have ny use

for them then and donOt have any use for them now. They neve used them.

MR. THRASHER: Do those books stay with the county Board ,

or are they supposed to send them back in to you for re-distribution?

MR. HUBBARD: They send them back in to us. All the mater-

ials, when they become unfit for further use, or when they discontinue the

use of any book. Ro H.t\~..,;,nER: Do you have place to store them?
MR o HUBBARD: Yes; we ave; a ware use.. MR o THRASHER: How many books () you h ve in your stor ge? MR. HUBBARD: I wouldnit know, becau e they co and go. We donit charge any school system for any books 0 comes over there and picks out that he can use. We might get a shipment of b 0 s today, and a fellow come i with a truck omorrow and take out a trucklo d of them and carry them home with him. MRo THRASHER: In other words, you dcnQt ow whether you have a half million, a million, or what? MRo HUBBARD: 1 kno we havenGt anything 1 a 1 million; we might have, altogether, fifty, seventy- ive thousand book over there. MRo OVERBY: Mr. Chairman. LTo -GOV., VANDIVER: Mro Overby. MR. OVERBY: Is that just a particular y good textbook s lesman that sold all of those that weren't used? MR. HUBBARD: I wouldnit be able to answer that, because 1 wasnit the purchaser. MRo COOK: Mr. Hubbard, in 1950 or 1951 I discovered in y county of Johnson that a Political Science book was being taught in the high school there that was published before the adoption of the 1945 Constitution. The kids were being taught constitut'onal law in a. portion of that book that did not exist, by virtue of the ado tion of a new Const'tution.

119 hat was four or fi~"e yea after we adopt~.d the n w Con titutio After it was di cove e i was a ad b okg .d 8 d e discarded, that is charged off, i nIt it, a a los , ag . s your inve try; by reason of it being disca ded?
MRo HUBBARD: Certainly; ye MR. COOl{: Do you have any eiz able cases like that wher u h ve t tak t t so t of 1 ~ ? MRo UBBAR: No; we 0 not. 0 her words they w r using a boo. there, that was urchased ovide tly before the change in the Constitu on, and t ey were still using it our or five or six years after the constitution was change MRc> COO : They were te ching ki s in m county you bad 0 be 21 ears of age to vote, whkh made it 1951. It was 18, in the Constitu on. Thoa o 8 were discarded, I presum.
M.
I) COOK: There was a charge-off some p ace along the l' e a.Xcs.ULtll~ th in ento y. You say ther i no ize Ie 10 8 wi h a
tt MR t UB ARD: That wasnit an overs ght. That was 'us a c.an e m the orm 0 go ernment after a boo nad been prmted and p chased, and ue to the card of money ey had to bu newe boo 8 re la e it, d had to go along with th 0 d ones the ad. MR. COOK: It is rather a dangerous bing to keep books in se. 00 un er be Constitutio of 1879, when y u have got a 945 at tut 0

120 Rn Ii" AR: I agree with you 1000/0, colon 1. MRo COOK: There u t have been an 0 ersi ht somewhere, and a loss somewhere. MR. HUBBARD: On the other han, it is awfully expen ive to furnish government books and Hi tory books th t are printed and written following each session of the General Assembly, or of Congre MRo COOK: I am going to a further extreme w"th a case that actually exi ted six ye rs aft r t e new Constitution was adopted. The kids were studying the prior Co~stitution. MR. HUBBARD: About the best ill strat"o I could give you about that was the illustration about Billy Ro e, in wh ch he was wai ing for a taxi, and this little schoolgirl came up and he got to talking wi he w ile he was waiting for the taxi. Finally he asked her what was the population d New York City. She told im it was two mil ion omething. e asked her where she got that information. She said, "Down at school," He said, "What school do you goto?" So she told him, and he was so terested, e next day he went down there and found out that the Georgraphy she was studying was published in 1922, and had the 1920 census; yet he was talking to her in 1948. So that's an extreme case. But they havenYt had the money; they donUt have the money today to change books. In dealing in governmental affairs, if there is a major change in the governme t. MRo COOK: Who is it that doesn't have the money to correct an evil such as 1 pointed out in Johnson County; the State or the pu Ushers? MR. HUBBARD: The State. The publi hers Will be lad to give

12

yo .e rise

t ookg or e ate t e iHo _ of that 0 k, if

you wa. t to pay the increased price for it; ut it is a fully xp naive to

di card sever 1 thousand book ~ and if y ur teacher is the type teacher

that I feel sure she i g when he comes to that particul r pha e of it she

will say: ow the Constitution of 194 c ged all of that. And when he

carne to say that the people co dnSt vote t were 18 years oldg e

would say: That was true when t is boo was written, but this Constitution

was amen ed giving you the right to vote at 18.

M COOK: You say there is no izeable 1 8 of . at sor of

charge-off?

MR. HUBBARD: 1 wouldn9t the 80; no

MRo BLA CK: Mr. Chairman.

lLT. -GOV. VANDIVER: Mr. B a ock.

R. LALO K: Do 1 de stand y u t ay that we could not

{fec a ave g by avin ou edu ators do t" gas andard for of 00

or eneral u e and b

in ar e uan i ies? Do 1 understan y u to a

could not ef ect cl m terial avin there?

UBB

0, sir; you c ot. If that 00 is used an -

w e el e this 'ountry.

M.. LALOCK: 1 am a businessmaDg d a 1 rge p r cent 0 us are, and any selling I have done in ~ ntities, you certainly c effect

hi avin.

MR. HUBBARD: As I said a while agog eve y tate, whether it

as a free textbook program or not, does have a state-adopted lis of t xt-

boo s, an they hay a con ract with each publish r of those textbOok,a

there i a cl \lse in that ('0 tr. ct k Gays if that publit'her el them

anyw re else ir. this c untIy at a p 'ice ower tha the contractual rice,

he ha with that respective Sate, he has to low r t e price f his textbook

to that offered price, or sale price, to somebody else.

DR. COL S: There is one point -- ..d I tbi

7'. Blalock's

question is perfectly good -- that i , where the State uye boo s' quan-

ity, and the tate unfortunat ly did that one 01'

Hme and st' 1 has

those books on hand.

MR. THRASHER: Mr. Hub l'd, e donllt hav to buy ooks in

quantity. What we have reference to is c tractin for them; where ou

have only two or three boo s 0 a t e , whi.ch will give hp. su lier f

those books a greater volwne to supply. We are ot, in ref ence to the

State uyin them, merely contracting on the basi of narrowing the number

of boo s down so the State c supply a greate umber of bo ks.

MR. HU BA D: Mr. hrasher, a few years ago - and 1 assume

it st'll 1S t u -- the State of or h Ca olina, if t ey adopt an publisher s

00 8 up the e, on a S1. f{ e b sis, had an averag p ice of 98~; and th y do

y their books in quanti ie , o. We could buy the arne book, either 0

boo at a ti c, or a d zen at a time, at 98~.

MRo THRASHER: You constantly chec tho~e bi prices to see

we are buying at the lowest price, regardless what ou contract is?

MRo UBBARD: Yes, sir. That's one of the things tha 23

southern states -- that9s one of the objects of our organization, and that's

wha I was saying a while ago. When I checked the prices Kentucky and

T as r paying in th field of Soc'al Science, and other subj ct matters,

123

n books they adopted th fall, W C we c ett"

w 25% .heaper

than they re having to pay for themp der le"r new contract price.

MRo THRASHER: Wait a minute, now. T e is something

wrong there. u sa there is an agreement among the et te s wherever it

is old cheaper, they have 0 sell it to the others at that stated price. 1

they are se ing i to us c eaper, why d n t they s II to e rest of them at

that price?

MR. HUBBA D: The Attorney Gene al could proba ly give you

better opinion on tha than Ii but it has been upheld by the court that that

d.doptio meant a reasonable length of time, or otherwise pric s of books

mayb wou never change. But the co r s have held th t -- 1 have forgo ten

wh ther it is six, eight, or twelve months -- but it i a reasonable length or

tim , t .at the prices mU.st the same.

Now what 1 should have saidg if Nort Carolina adop s a ook tbl

th t 98~ 9 then Geor i can g t th

k on a multiple Hat b. 9

ASHE : All right. Su pose our pr C 9 though, that

ave g is 80~.

or Carolina et the sa e price we do?

I:i BA D: If our adoption was m e prior to six or i

. whatever at cou decided was a reasonabl

th of hmei t en

the publisher is allowed go up 0 the prices.

MRo THRASHER: There is one other question, r. Hubbard.

Do yo know if -- this Committee is trying its best to determine or find

some eth d of streamlining or acc.omplishing Bome ec nomies for approac -

the taxpayer 0 is tate with the problem. Ib there anyway in the

I-' rei. 0 of u:r lVisi n that any money can be saved? or ins ee,

have this th ug t: TOle State ado t b oks. You s y e I cnl ystem buys them. At the rese t time 1 se orde come t the State. The State processes them, pays for them.
You also allot money to the local co ty system. Now why -and can there be money saved by e State entering into these c ntracts at the contract prices which you stated. allot the money to the loc 1 ay t ma and let the local systems buy the books them elv s. without the routine of having to go through the State De artment? ow why can't that be done?
MR. HUBBARD: Mr. Thrasher. we have ove there, ho takes care of all of these orders; processing of all of these orders; eig t people, including my secretary. Of course she devotes very little time to that phase of the work. We buy, not only text books but school an public library books, audio- isual aids. The State of Ohio wa the first tate in the union to try sending money out to the local systems. he childre vel' had any book. They could always find something else for which to use that money. and as a result they had to do away with that ays em. The latest state to try it was the State of Tennessee. They started in about seven years ago on that program and one of the Committee of the State Board of Education was in Tennessee at the time that happened. and one of the members reported to me. for instance, that one of the systems had spe t all of its money for audio-visual aids, and never bought a textbook. T ey were raising sand down there because they couldn't get any textb oks.
Another local system spent all of its money for dictionaries. Never bought a textbook, other than a dictionary.
Now Tennessee had to abandon it, and had to go back to what we

125 consider rnore or Ie s a state c ntr 1 of e oney, and what it " s 8p nt foro It has cost them an average of $2, 500,000 a year; total of $10,000,000 whic they had to borrow 5.000,0 0 f it to get their textbook pr gram to something 1ike we have n w.
MR. HRASHE.R: How can we be con is ent, th ugh, '\ n Dr. Collins says here in e instance he wants it to be der local control, and then we turn around day: In this instance we h ve got to c ntro it?
MR. HUBBARD: It is under 0 al control, Mr. Thra.sh r, in 80 far a the selection.
DR. COLLINS: They ake the selection out there ocally. MR. HUBB RD: They have t e . h t Be ect anyt' they want to on the textbook list.
ow here i another point. P 'lor to the beg' ing 0 thi centralized state purchasing. our local 9choollib ries out there, your small libraries were g ttin ap roximately 150/0 discount 0 library book Your I rger libraries. suc as the City f tl nta, here; pu lie library; was getting a net discount of approximately 20%. Now today we are getting
d scount of from 35 to 400/0, because the publishers have only one account to deal with; and as you very well kno 11 of our business is on a cash basis. I am not allowed even to order a postage stamp unless I have got the cash money over there to pay for it before I 0 der it. and th y know it is a cash business, and it is no risk, and ey give us very fine discounts that local units could not pos ibly give.
MRo TIiRASHER: Do we save money by hand! g it up there?

126 MR. HUB A D: 1 yo' take t'le 50/<; we "ct over at o' er state on te books p pI s this 15 to 20% die co un , that we get on li rary books, our savings there, and those disc unts, will practically perate the Librar and Textbook Division. MRo HAWKINS: Mr. Ittha rman. LTo -GOVo VANDIVE : Mr. Hawkin MRo HAWKI S: Mr. Hubbard, with regard to these textbooks: Has any investigation or study been made regarding e pos ibi ity of requiring a deposit on the ooks by each chUd, or the parents of a child at the beginning of a chool year in order to cut doth estruction or 1088 of books? MRo HUBBARD: Not at I know of. MRo HAWKINS: Woul any money be saved if such a thing wcr unde taken? MRc HUBBARD: Yes; I think so. M HAWKINS: Any substantial amount? MR. HUBBARD: No; 1 wouldn't think so. The principals and teachers requlre all of the books that are' ssucd to a child -- they have a duplicate receipt book, there. When the books are i sued to a child a record is made of the ooks that he gets, and the child is given a copy of that, and he carries it to his parents. Then at the end of the school year, when he returns those books, then he gets a receipt for the return of it. Now if he haa lost some of it, or unduly damaged some of them, they make every effort to collect for that los book or damaged book before they ive him that rece ipt. That is one of the very delicate in your extbook

2.7 - - very de kate ueationa' yo r te):t ook p ....ogra
MRo HAWKINS: Actually, they don't ....oUect it, do they? MR. HUBBARD: Yes. Some of thelU 0 a very, very fine job. That varies from system to syst m. b t whatever money is collected, they send back up here, and they are given credit 0 their aceo mt c rds for the money they collected; so they can buy additional textbooks. MRo HAWKINS: I talked t one county school au erint nd nt w 0 told m they had collected about $150 last year. It seem to me under a deposit system they might collect several times that amount. MRo HUBBARD: They mi ht could do tat. MR. HAWKINS: Mr. Welch this morning asked Dr. C 11ina what he thought about the idea of repealing our law with regard to free schoolbooks, and he stated he would be against it. Do you think that we cou d have any modification in free schoolbooks, in order to save money, without it being a hardship on the students? MR o HUBBARD: If you break it down to the daily cost, the average child will use a minimum of te books a year for a IZ-year period in school. Now under the State system it is costing the taxpayers 1 1/4~ a day for the use of those ten books. Now that8s just about as economical ae I can imagine, under the present prices of books. If you are going to give him any books at all. MRo HAWKINS: But it is costing about 3'0 of the total amount of your budget. MRo HUBBARD: That8 s due to your number of pupils. If you could eliminate a half million or more pupils; yes, sir.

128

o H WIN: ThatQs ri ht; I tho 90. ut I

ta ing

about the possibilities of effect' g e anomies, a d t is i ne pbase of the

budget that I think we ought to consider a p ssbTty.

MR. HU BARD: I do too, sir; and I would like for you to figure

i two ways. In the first place 1 think that the best infor tio th t any

person can get is right at the gra roots, and I wou d like fo yo\: 0 1k

with the superintendents and teach.r I would lik for you t ct 11y

ex m'ne the ooke that are in u in school d ~e what k' d of condit on

they are . , and how many surplus boo s, if an., h ha on and, there;

and then talk with him abo t weer or not he can effect any economies.

That' 8 on phage of i .

Now here 's another phase: Yo take your entire instruction

material progr m, is approximately Z~ outside of your rural librar

programs of your total expenditure for sc 00 So When y u pay

teache:.t"s their salarie II wh n ou pay trans ortati n for children; whe

you pay for our ca ita! outlay for your uUding an for th 'r maintenance

and operation, and haul the children up there and then no give them he

roper too s to work with, I doubt the economy of s ch a ituation.

MR. WELCH: In regard to the pu chas of 8chcolbooks; wheth r

they e free I!Jchoolboo s or noti couldnUt the State Departme t of Education

continue to buy the boo 8 on the same basi, wether they are f~ee, or not,

and llnder the same co tractu 1 arrangements?

MR" HUBB D: I donlt know whether they would sell t em to

th , unless they had the money to pay for them, or not. I don t lmow just

ow 0 their cr dit i 0

129
MR" WELC : The Stat~ wOllld co t" ae to pa. f r it; ut ts' a questions of ing fre~ to e school ayste ,i the . t I am m -mg. Could they not, ev n though they er not f~ee, still by... ooks at the
me pric ,under e same contrac ual arr gemen ? o you kn wof any re eon why they couldn't?
MR. HUBBARD: How would you channel it to t e pupil? How would he get ahold f the book? Do Y u mean sell them 0 th upil, or rent them to them?
MRo WELCH: You could d that, or give the sc 001 system credit for a certain amount of money that you approp ated.
MRo HUBBARD: We do at o We at up an allotment foI' t em each year.
MR. ELCH: 1 understan. The questi n is how .. l.UC do you spend per ear or buying schoolbooks; ap r ximately?
MR HUBBARD: For te bo ks alone, it r & about, this year, $2,100.000.
MR o WEL H: Now we need, according to the estimates here, about $58, 000,000. hatVs our pr blem, is it not?
MR. HUBBARD: That .. th overall program, as I understand it; yes, sir.
MRo WELCH: he uestion I h v raised is not to ssi t the schools by not giving hem m ney, but as was uggeste. that w effect econ mies that we might be able to serve better.
MR. HUBBARD: Yes, sir; that'Ej t e problem. MRo ELCH: I d It want to cripple the scho I ate s.

130

MRo HUB AR

ap :.:oec iate that.

MR o WELCH: But if there be ways of op atin e sch 01 ays-

terns by which we ge great r re ults for the sa.me am t of oney8 then

donUt you think we ought to do that?

MRo HUBBARD: Yes, ir; byal means.

MRo WELCH: Thatl my point.

LTo -GOVo VANDIVER: re schoolbook purcha cd by contract
. or under competitive bidding?
MRo HU ARD: They are purchased by contract, and it .s

competitive bidding in the sense that each pu Haher 1 a definite, stated

price for his publications, da aid a w Ue ago, if we buy that book

with a r &aonab1e le gth of tinle after any other state has purchased it,

we know wh t the t te is going to have to pay f it. Now they haVe got

to pay that price if they get that book, wh ther it 1tJ n

multiple lease.

LT. -GOVo VANDIVER: Those tates purchaain ooks, are

those states purchasing books on a competitive i?

MR. HUBBARD: Not any more than eorgia does; no, sir.

LT. -GOV VANDIVER: Mr. Byrum

MR o BYRUM: Mr. Hubbard, would you mind t lUng the Committee the proc dure in getting these booles to the school from your

Department; the number of peop e who have to handle the r quisitions?

MRo HUBBARD: In the distribution of these books, s I told

you a few minutes ago, an allotment is made to each school system on a

per-p pi! b sis, according to grade. The superintendent s notified of the

131

amount of allotme t set p to his credit. He rna C' out his requisition

{or textbooks. He sends u two copi.es of it. We process that order;

s d it to the publiaher or ship er who ships the ok irect y to th

superintendent, or someone designated by the superintendent, who e-

ceives the books.

When the books are received they are check d gainst a copy

of the invoice that s sent to them. That invoice is sent hac to the

shipper.

In the meantime the shipper ha s nt us th original copy of the

invoice. We check that invoice against our order and aga" et the prices an

at his billing period, usually at the end of the month. he sends u.s a state-

ment covering the approved copies of the invoices that he has rec ived

back from the superintendent, or whoeve received the books at the local

system, and then we a dit that account and apprCtve it for payme t.

MR. BYR M: If a pupil needs a History book, how docs he get

the History book?

tion.

MR o HUBBARD: Hie superintendent has to send m a requisi-

MR. BYRUM: The teach r?

MR" HUBBARD: Well, the teacher would have to work through

the superintendent. We deal only with the superintendents of the systems.

MR. BYRUM: understand that, but the child has to make

application of the teacher, or the teacher makes application to the s'~per

intendent or principal?

MRo HUBBARD: The practical way it is done, the teacher knows

132 the boo a t t C lld'1 cd. -f she oe~nnt have t Aem noland, he aks the 5Uperi te dent for em. If e d esn't _ e. have th mine stockroomg or some surplus ook from smother chool, e will s nd thro gh areq isition for the books he ants.
MR. B RU : That requisition goes through orne ubordinate official before it reac es the top, doesn't it?
MR. HUBBARD: I comes to the Stat Department of Educationj to this Divi ion.
MR. BYRUM: 1 under tand that, but "t goea th ough three 0 four or five different people shands t get this book, doeon't it?
MRo HUB AR : No. The nly other hands it has to go through is the ar a supervisor, or he asei tant to Mr. Pu cell. Bec tl e we have had quite a great deal of trouble, or did h vo -- we don't h ve much f it now -- th se area supervisors work with e superinte d nte of ach of the r respective 81 em, and the keep a record hemselve , :vith our aid, of whatever balan e he might have on hand, and if any textb ok requi ition/ seems to be excessive to the area supervisor, before he approve it and se ds it to me, why he goes and sees th superintendent ehecks with him definitely as to wether or not he needs those books
MRo BYRUM: Well, we wouldnUt say excessive, but what we mean to say is here are a ou Ie books these pupils nee What I am trying to get at: Can the procedure of ordering th se books be streamlined to save time and money to ge the order to the people, or to the proper source, without go ing through all of this routine 'of --
MR. HUBBARD: In just a few, very few books that way,

133 quite often tho e req ,s 'ti ns come di.. ect to the office her, d are processed, and immedia Iy rele sed. But' it is a arg requisition, it has got to go to the area superv' Bor. If h think it is exce ive, he goes back to that school u erintendent and c ecks with hi all of his oks, before
he will approve it, and s nd it in. MRo BYRUM: If I understood it ri ht, it wouldnUt b a y ex-
cessive order, because y u have already set up a school t xt ok fund for that school, and would it be any system to chec while he is 0 derlng these books. in asmuch as ther is an allotment of mo ey to him?
MR. HUB ARD: I might give you an il ustration hieb a few years ago in which person ordered rather larg num er of Arithm tics. The supervi or took the req ioitio and went do to see the superintendent and he s ys: "What have you been teaching? Wh t ha e you been
ing to teach Arithm tic the last two or three yare, s' ce you need all of these this year?"
"Well," he says, "this was worked up by my secretary. I 'dnat pay much attention to it. Just signed it and sent it on. "
So they went to checking Arithmetics and when he got through checking he found he had more Arithmetics on hand than he had pupils.
MRo BYRUM: ThatUa one way it could happen, but the question I have in mind, and what I find with the county school superintendent I ta to is this: There seem to be a lot of duplication of the order from the prin- _ cipal to the - - from the teacher to the principal, principal to the superintendent, superintendent to the county area agent, county agent to the area supervisor, and about six or seven or eight people handled that l'equisitio

34 before he g t9 it back.
MR. HU BARD: ThatQe a 1 cal proc dur~. It is all on the local level, up there, and I donOt know anything about tha
MR. COOK: Mr. Hu bard, I und rstand t le ub i er of these books will g t that lates may be used by the loca authoriti , A a matter of fact, the State of California, I beli ve, re t the plate for t eir books, and the inmates of the pri ons, there, in orne are 8 of California do the printing with the In titution' pint' utfit. I am 0 posed to that, because it would put, of course, pri 0 la i co eUtion ith private enterprise. But if the e plates co d be rented, 0 you think there might be some savi to the State if, after they ~ve sleeted the subject, the pI tea are rented and competitive bids a. e taken from local prin era on a competitive b sis to rint an blish th books with the rent d plate ?
M HUBBARD: I think you could save me dollars d cents that way.
MRo COOK: Would it be Bubstantial. MRo HUBBARD: You must keep this in mind: Tha you c Vt rent those plates from the publishers as long as thos books are aleable to any other state. They wait until they are outdated, and nobody else is using it, and then they wUI sell you or rent you the plates. MR. COOK: CQ,lifornia is actually doing it, and they are far ahead of us in the field of education, according to some of the reports I have heard, MR. HUBBARD: Yes, sir; and more books are bought directly rom the publishers today in California than are used under the California

1:15

system. T ey won' use the system --

MRo COO : You can't tell n e tha Califol" ia, by enting the

pI te and prmUng t e boo are ut of d te and outmo

M a au A

1 certainly do; yes, siro

MRo COOK' 1 didnSt know thato
MRo au BARD: Those b oks certainly reo And comparative-

ly fe of those books are used in th public school systeln in California.

And Kansas, too. They have tried 11 that.

You take a United State History. Maybe it was first witten . &

1948. Now they haven't got a stat contract. Th y ca at sell that 48

editi n anyw ere else in the co try. They ave got to s 11 a 054 r a55

editio. They will r nt you the plates on the 45 edition~ if ')0 want them;

or they will make them up for you proh.'\. 1.. cheaper that: y u can hire a

local printer.

M COO But they will not rent the pIa es for the current

ditlon?

HUBBA D: Oh~ no; no; 0, siro

MR. MELTO : Mr. Chairman.

LT. -GOV. ANDIVER. Mr. Melton.

MR. MELT N: Mr. ubbard, there are o . stances in which

1 -an imagine, or almost presume, that no other states w uld be interes e

m ese plates. On ~ of course, would be history of Geo ia. Another,

l'e ume, wou d be a current text. I assume a Civics text of aome na ure;

,Cl"""..." the various aspects of Georgia government. Now this may b a m (r avin 8~ bl t apparently we wl.ll get no ecomme ations as to m Jor

16

savings, a d m or sa-vi 'gs all :'odd u we et a dh.e 0' . Geo gia

His ory, or one Ci ic book, 'NO d th not e a avinga thexoc in bulk

order ; or are we ready in that?

Ro H BBARD: We re alre dy in t on the rade level.

We have a little Georgia Reader for the Thi d or Fourth Grade. Then the

State Board, on a compe it've b'd, has 'ust d ew G rgia History

written for the Fifth an Sixth Grades.

Now there is a

eorg'a Hi t ry t t 9 on the Eighth or

Ninth Grade eve, and a yo go p in your grades, w 11 0 co rse those

Histories pl"ogr fJsively get harder and ar er. 1 re lly

an 1 hope

that somebody is going to prepare a combination Hi tory d Civic foJ."

the Elev nth an Twelfth Grad a, so Georgi studen~ can arn so ethmg

o t Georgia gover ment and Georgia affa'r .

Ro MELTON: Are we now standard'zed on 0 e text for each 0

those grades?

MR. HUBBARD: Ye , sir.

o MELTO : The teacher doesn3t hav a plural choice. a

se ath r exts?

M HU BARD: 0, ir; for the slmple fact t is too xpensiv

MRn MELTO : Thatas the point. t ought we could save a

coupl dollars, there!

MR. THRASHER: Mr. Hubbard, you made a tatement that you--

allotted so much rno ey to the county for boo te. Suppose in a county ike

e alb, or some of these 0 er counties whe e t y get an influx of stu-

dents. They have 0 buy more books than you a ot. What price 0 they

137 pay for he books? Do ey get the t the same Stc>te pr:ce?
MRo HUBBARD: They buy them u der s e.cial rrangements. It's not a written agreem nt, ut wi h under t ding - d greeme t with the publish r. off the record. They get those books at th same price at the State does.
Quite often they will s nd ue the money and ask u to order the books for them. That's tru . t e field f libra. y service, 0 Some of these counties will send us over a check f r five 0 ten thous dol ars They will say, "Just give us credit for it, a e will send you the order for the books later on."
We do tha on that basis the same a on the other. MR. THRAS. R: With all your experience in textbook, ever since the star ing of the program, you canlt suggest any way or any place th t we could improve the operations that will reflect y eco omy? MRo HUBBARD: Mr. Thrasher, that question had neve been asked before. I do think -- I think this Committee w ~t to know, frankly, the truth of the situation - - I think if we had some dy who was a spedaIi t in instructional materials, that could devote his or her time ith the local teachers out here, and superintendents, working with them and cons t g with them as to the proper election and use of those materials, it wO..lld result in a ubstantial savin 8. But w do not have that pe son. MR o COOK: Your textboo committee; how much time does thal committee devote to the tudy of books that they select? MRo HUBBARD: Mr. Cook, 1 believe going back to 1937, when they had to adopt all of them, we were over here about five weeks. Now we

138 have got it -- divided the books into five cate ories~ and mak . one adopt n each yea , except w re they extend the contrac s, a d it will take
ose people from three or four days to a week. I do at believe we hav
\
had any Committee to work over a week in the last few year . The most of the book cons ider .d by any committ e are revie d
editions of the books a ready in use, and they are 1 eady familiar with that book except the n wer pCi.rt of it, and it doesnUt take the to long to check on that particular thing.
MR. TIl HER: That suggestion you de a out pos ibly we could realize SOlne economy, that would approach it from what way? I mean~ what d you say that such a person would do, be ide con uit with the var iOU6 --
MRo HUBBARD: ThatGs all she would have time to do, and he wouldn9t have time to do all of that.
MRo THRASHER: In what way would t t result in a savings? MRo HUBBARD: I think, Mr. Thra her, that that person could and would suggest economies that might be effected In the school system in the use and rotation of books. For instance, you take in your first grade, and you have got maybe four or five schools there, and they may have on or five sections in the first grade and each --' each one of tho e chools. Now a first grade pupil is supposed to read from one - - from ten to 2.0 books. It will vary according to the system and the ability of th child and the teacher. We havenQt got the money, t.M no local unit has got the money, to buy all of those books for each child e rolled in that grade; but by properly dividing it up between the various books avaUa Ie for that

139

read g coura , dr

os 1 s fro 9cb 01 0 schoo,

a su stantial savin

MRo TH ASHER: You h ve au ority now to put such a pereo

as t at on your payroll. Why hasnlt that be n done?

o HUBBA D: I might have the authority, but hz.ven't got

the person or mon y to pay him.

M 0 THRASHER: I noticed you increase yo r per onnel from

28 to 880 One of those could hi! ve b en that person, c uldn't it?

MRo HUB ARD: Mr. Thrasher, most f that in rae, as you

very well know, has come our visual aid program.

MR. THRASHE : If t at ould produce an eeo my, t gIl,

tsn8t that something that you hould get into effect -- get put into effect?

MRo H BARD: I think 8 , by all means.

MRo TH HER: Isn't there 0 thing you can do away wi h

temporarily, to et that person on?

MR. HUBBARD: I don8t know about that. If I did, I would do it.

MRo TIiRASHER: You donBt want me to g t specific, do you?

MR. HUBBARD: Yes; or anybody else.

MRo NOCHUMSON: Mr. Hubbard, are the stude t in a y grade,

either elementary or high school, given the privilege or purchasing their

own books?

MR. HUBBARD: If the want to; yes.

MR. NOCHUMSON: Do 't you tho an economy could esult

for the State if a sell g job was done from the top down to the uperinten-

en s and eacbers, to ask some 0 the pupUs to purchase the e books as an

1

ad it on or otart for t . 0- _tbr ries, d

th t w y

y

b>oks, particula ly' hig Be 001, would' e purch se by students or

parent II and 1 elieve a great economy or sa . 88 woul result from that

proce ure. Do y u t ink that that i feasible? Maybe set i e for the

purpose of allowing the t achers to do a selling job for e Sta.te.

hen so _thing is free, everybody want t, btl 10eve in

the inter at of the betterment 0 the fmand"l situaton for th tate, if

the top level management felt that they c . d do selling job, own to the

uperintendent and the teac era, I feel certain that if I were going to

school, or if my child were going to sch 0 , I ould want 0 purchase

those books.

I think t ey should be gi en that opportuni y as So atter of

civ"c pride, to own the books, and ale to e an a iUo to their

library.

MRQ HUB ARD: T trouble State Boards a e ving right

w, sir, is due to the fact hat in every school syst m i this State

dditi nat materia s are purcha ed the part of the pupil or the ch 01

ystem, an that i in a dition to what the State fur ishee, and p otest

IS been brought to the tate Board ducation because they had to buy

a ew ork boo , or a little paper, and a li e something else; that th

State ought to furnish it all free.

MR. NOCHUMSO : The selling jo isn't a good job.

MR. H BBARD: There are a few pupils; very few, however.

. th state, that I know of, that purchase their ooks as an individual

pure: se. Th y d purchase their work books and oth r books, and 0 her

11

in truction teri Ib t~ t is '18 d in their co -ae , 3 cll as 3 enographic

books, bookkeeping forms. and things like that.

M 0 NOCHU ~O : I believe textbook would be a good addi-

tion to any student's library, a d I ink that ought to be tr'ed.

MRo HUBBARD: There are a lot of oy terns ave t buy addi-

tional textbooks. Take the City of At anta; they spend a on id r20 Ie

sum more than the S te furnishe for textboo 8.

MRo PHILLIPS: You rought up the question of the parents

havi to furnish the paper, d 8t f. We ,aren8t the parent educated

to the fact that this $300 per teacher is au posed to furn'sh that writing

paper and pencils and things to the child?

MR. HUBBARD: I do not believe tha ha i an item con ider

ed in the main enance

operation of t le school.

M 0 PHILLIPS: 1 think t e general p ic is under that i

pr sion.

MRo HUB A D: I be your pardon?

{ P 0 lL IPS: Th gen ral pub ic fig res that $300 is 0 y

fo at cho d's a t in his wr1tin and pencils and things . e that.

MR HUB A D: As far as I know, ey would be abl to ae 1t

for that purpose, if the wanted to, but on the other hand if i has ev r

been considered by anyone studying the school program a part of the

operation and maintenance funds, I just don t recall it, sir.

I would just like to say this, gen em n. As 1 said at the be-

innin , so far s I 0 this is the only tax m asure on the statute books

. as voted by the people th mselve for a specific purpose. I told

142

brother Thrasher t "'t I \T g 'ng to tell i. I didn9t tell hi

was, though. Our total allotment last year fo te books, li r ry books~

including y rural libraries, as $2,800, 000. et the tax that th

people themselve voted arno t to $4,500,000. So your mo t ffident

State Auditor is g ping me out of nearly $2 millio a year~

MR. THRA HER: Mr. Chairman, that may e t e

canDt get any recommendations for economy! He is trying to et up to

that point!

LT0 -GOV. VANDIVER: Any further qu tons?

MRo HUBBARD: Thank you very much.

orne of you

w ill come by and see us.

LTo -GOV. VANDIVER: The Chairman of this Committee, who

is absent thi afternoon, ask d that this Coromi ee n t meet again un il

next Wednesday in order that he might be pre ent. 1 th'

discussion as to wether or not the Committee would meet 0 days, this

week, rather than one; d I thought it might be of interest tome of

you to know that he had requested that we not meet until next Wednesd y.

MR. THRASHER: Mr. Chairman, our reporter asks for about

a 5-minute recess. We are about to talk him out. I make a motion we

have a recess for about five minutes.

LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: The Chair hears a motion for a 5-

minute recess. Is there any objection? Hearing none, we will be in re-

cess until 20 minutes of 4:00.

(Five-minute reces8.)

LT0 ..GOV VANDIVER: The time for reconvenin having

143 arrived, the Committee will be in order.
DRo COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, other members of he Committee; speaking a moment ago with Mr. Hu.bbard about saving mon y: I mow we are all interested in saving where we can, when it is not at the expense of the educati nal opportuni y of the child. I knOVl at the children come even before oUare. We have the children, and need dollars.
I could lnention one place w eloe the State Board of ducation has saved money, in connection with the public schools' textbook program. When this program was launched in 1937 the State Board tried to et an insurance policy covering the textbook program with reg r to eState, and the best figure we were offered at that time was $90,000 a year printing. So we decide we would take a chance an' c rry our own insurance, nd by so doing we have never lost more than $35,000 a year. Therefore, by that action the State Board of Education has saved the taxpayer $55,000 a year for eighteen years, which lacks only $10,000 of b ing only a million dollars. So there is a million dollars negatively saved, anyway.
I am glad to present, now, Mr. Lo M. Lester, former superintendent of schools at Blakeley and Griffin (?), and I understand one of lis former schoolboys is a member of this Committee. He has been with the State Department of Education ZZ years next June. Mr. Lester.
MR. LESTER: I understand your frustration, in at nobody so far has helped out in suggesting ways in which any considerable amount of IJ'loney could be saved. I canUt encourage you too much, either$ because I

44 suppo e if you iped out the Div' sio 0 Instruction, it em a rather skeleton orga izatio , that y u would ba.. dis 0 eft e cont ols of quality, d ot s ved you any mon yeither, to amount to ything.
Somethin occurred to me; yester aya friend 0 min showed me a note. He said look at thi. He tho ght it was awf f y -- an it \V e. H said, "My boy left this lyin ar d at ho e." H said," st we k they were studying the Declaration of Indep n ence, or had e n tudying that phase of history, and they had otten retty full of the subeet." Thi note that I read was e Declaration of In epende. ce of School. He an his boy and ten other boys had written a statement of independence that they were tired of school, they were tired of teachers, they ere re 0
sitting still in the classrooms, they didn't like the way tngs were r ,
and they asked everybody in the school to write his Con law freeing them of the necessity of going to school.
Of course. if that were widespread enough, that rr1i ht he p a little. That's our trouble, now.
The Department of Education was reorganized about a year ago and the Division of Instruction was set up to include teache ed cation and certain personnel that had been pre ious y attached to other divisio s. The idea was that with all t e money we are s ending for educa ion, i is I:rnportant that the j b that is be Lng done be looked at.
For a long time schoo s have been subject to pot-shots from all sides, and vulnerable in many ca es. But one of the thing w all need to remember is that we have br adened the responsibilities of the school in th last few years. Schools are supposed to do this, that, and the other,

and in addition, teach the pupils 0 think. This Division is organized~ th Division that I work with, it ha
three ar as of responsibU'ty that I will try to de cribe hurrie y 80 th t you may have time to mak some inquirie . We deal with the problem of the curriculum of the school; wh t it is trying to do, and with the .ethods that are bing used to improve the result of instruction. The curriculum of a modern school, beside skills in the 0 Is of learnings, and in the methods of ommunication, is concerned with e healt , mental and phys ical health, and safe of chi dre
he Legislature Borne years ago added a r quir ent that some ~ thing be done to emph size temperance education d allocated a certain amount of money to that. It goes into the budget for that p rpose.
All of u are under pressure and under the approval f the Governor some years a 0 ot in behind the idea of driver education. The more we s ud i 9 the mo we see the importance of it, and the more we get an idea that it i8 more closely related, though, to citizen hip than it is to physics, and the mechanics of driving a car.
The chools have pretty broad responsibilid s in the whole area d hea th and physical education. You know the prese It policy throughout the State is to make a great deal of physical education, and to define physical education as interscho astic sports. Yet you look at many schools
d you will find very little is being don for the average child and his p yeical education. Very few ill st ations of intramural athletics, opportunities of this man who goes to interscholastic games to shift his interests rom that rather vi id affair,' over to things that is 0 8 and wn

14'

daughter p rticipate in. In 0 her w r

gr, t deal _e t be do e in

that area.

We think of the health

hys'cal educ tion program 8 bein

broado It involves the environment, a wholesome nvironment w ic

affects the way people live and grow, and what they become. We know that

it ia concern d with health service , and in that respect the school de-

pend. and relies heavily upo the S t De rtment of Heal , n the

County Boards of Health.

But although we are pushing the matter pretty vigorousl at

the present time, we havenit chieved anywhere near w at needs to be

done in that area.

The matter of health education, actual fe' ct import nt for

thinking and act' g e fectively in the preservatio of he th, is one of e

reapon ibUities that the tate oa of Education h recently dealt with

in the recommendation of an dditional it in health in tructi n.

Then there is phys'cal education itself, w ich I 8 Y needs to

be broadened. We have done, just ae an illustration though of the fact.

that the cUrriculum of the public schhols is far from a hundred per cent

effective. In other words, the point that I am bringing up; the approach

that I am making; is not any consolation to this Committee, eith r. We

are saying we aren't doing the job we ought to do in the matter of instruc-

tion. I would say this State is doing it about as definitely and as well as

any other stat , but education as a whole is up for criticism in that they

aren't clear a to their objectives; they don't pursue the with definite

intent; and they don't measure their results in terms of how well they are

147 a~hieving the ro~ 0'0' .:tives tha th p~ b ic exp c.t of th m.
Besides health, physical educatio , s rcty, we are concerned with the tools of learning; reading. writing, ari hm tic, communications, speech; all the modern means of communication. We are in iatin upon every individual that goes through high school being pretty well acquainted with the world he lives in through studies of science, mat em:!.tica, oelal studies, and literature, with a. focus . pon wh t is important to ay, and with what is good in the culture tran$mitted from the past.
We are concerned more and more t t the individual learns to live effectively with hi fellows. We have certain values we a. to preserve. We believe in the family and in the family grou.. , and e' eUeve it needs education both to lead the chi d to appreciate the meaning of it, and to develop his skills for effective action in that group.
We believe that active participation in community life is essential, and that you h ve to teach t. That some wi I learn because of the kind 0 people they are, or because of the foot they get off on, but that the
vera e person, an the person below the average has to learn decent human relations, appreciation of individuals, of their feelings and rights, and moral values; and the school as to do that.
And there is one we are beginning to wake up and ruh their eyes about, and that is vocationa competence. That vocation is 80nlething not just hooked onto education, but it is life for him after he gets out. After he gets into life that is life. A manoa work is largely what he does.
That, plus the understandings involved in economic efficiency. Not just the income that one can make in order to keep himself from bein

48

ependen upon oc ty, but the us # of his inco and the

ge that

goes with it, is the res 0 sibi 'ty of e schools.

These broad objective are w at makes eac ing a complex

thing; a hard thing; a thing tha.t people with 10 th verage a ility can't

do. They might teach one of them -- in fact we might red ce this tools

subject business to phonograph records, the multiplication bi 5, or even

the learning of foreign 1 guage, mi ht be reduced to a phonog aph record,

mechanized to that extent. But theoe broa er abjectiv s of c-h racter and

citizenship, huma relati ns, health; canUt be re uced to y -- at least we

have not been able yet to devise the IBM that will do i"'. I wo dnQt put

ything beyond us in the future, but ri ht now it has to b on by and r

mouth or brain.

That's the reason we take t e poaition tha a tea er i a ski led

person; a perso with a great deal of knowledge abo t life today, an its

problems; the teacher being the person to take the younger membe of

society and introduce him to life as it is d is becoming. That person

needs to know the sciences of today. She needs to know, or he needs to

know -- we say "she" because it looks like she predominates in the pro-

fession. But a teacher needs to understand the Bocial prob ems of today,

and I say the elementary teacher ne ds to know it, e primary teacher

needs to mow it; need to know the work of the world and it tl ignificance

for all of us; needs to have skills in communica ion; in giving and getting

ideas.

How often how many of ou roubles come from inability to put

into words our thoughts, with a correspondence weakness in the thinking

149

itself, or in t e ina 1. it} t Ii n cfiecti 41 i r to raw out f 1 the 0 er

person his ide s, so that th e c~n be a cornmon und retan ing which i

bas is for common a ~tion.

The argument that that sums up to is that the teacher is a p etty

broadly trained perso. A person that knows a great deal; that has had

broad exp rience and seasoned judgment.

That in so far as we have to use ople with les8 training th

that, we are sacrificing -- 1 shouldnUt say s..crificing, ecause that assume

we once had total roup eq ivalent t that, an h v

e hac w rd; we

haven't. At least we are foregoing 't. We re fail' g to get the k' d of

instruction e want t the hands of people wi limited abO it imited

training, limited interest in the profession.

I am merely making the point that we have made pretty good

progress in the matte f trainin of teac ers, and we have, de pite all of

e ifficulties of the teacher, in pite of an inflating pri e or elating

<bllar -- they are he reverse of each other -- but despite all of that,

t ac er of the State have, since we began to recognize training, called i

important and set up some good centers or training, have used the mone

that we gave them and the summers that they have, to upgrade their tra' -

ing until now, beginning in 1941-42, there were 9,000 teachers ho reachea

what was called standard training; in 1945- -- you aee, it stayed about the

same, because during the War, with the manpower shortage and so many

of them were in the s rvice, and immediately after the Var it went u to

13,5 people who had standard training out of a tota of 23,000; and now,

o 0 a total of 28, 000, 2 ,600 have equipp d themse ves to where we say

15

they h ve mOn:murn, desi ao e -- i! you d ..l pe.. 't me to t:e tho...e two

word t gether -- minimu - esira e trainin f r eir p fessi n.

That doe s not mean hat they are skilled as we would like them to

be, u it does mean that they h v studie long, that they have pent their

money at it, that the are serious about it, that they have ta en some pro-

fessional trainin which involvea a at dyof e natu e of this material that

we are dealing with -- the uman hein. They know s m thing a out the

way he grows and acts, an hat m tivat im; why he does what he does,

and h w you can change things so he will 0 diffe ently.

On the whole, we have a vastly improved teach' g force over the

old ye s. Th is no reflect'on n Mr. X or Mr. Y who taug me. 1

remember one 0 the finest people -- I had ood t",acbersr in toe day Master's Degre people, Bachelor's D .gree peo Ie; pole wb were

cho ars, a eompa ed wi 0 er people in ose da I's; and th nes I re-

mem r ar th people. d not remember t e other who VI'ere mo e or

lee helping out, but they didn&t 'mpress me, and 1 canOt po' t to high

mom n 8 in my life that grew out of contribution the made to me. 1

d name three ri t now, but I am 80 0 d, you see -- I cou d name a

10

m, as ar s hat is concerne know you wouldnCt want me to

star naming them.

That point, tho gh, is one that can~t be over -emphazi ed. We

need teachers who are abo e the av rage people\) ith thorough knowledge,

with expe i nce that mak s the knowledge arno t to somethin and ith

proven judgm nt; b'lity to think ffectively and make deci ions d

choice thdt are sound and log ieal.

WeI, thi p og am -- t

re~ n i il:tie

t ou Division

is concern d with, ~ ey ju t grew out of 0 r calling atte tion to t e act

that currie um deve opment deter ing hat is the right ind of condi-

tions to provide for the rowth of Jo Doe, a,nd how to elp te c era to see

the needs of children, to observe the p ogre s th yare ma'..,ing, how to

recognize progress when they see it, to know objectives. This takes

training and experience, and that our staff as a whole is vastly improved in

that respect.

At the same time we have at leaet, you see - - we have seven or

eight thousand teachers whose training has been piece-meal; it is un-

finished; they are lacking in some essential detaiL It is less than a pro-

gram that is planned to include all of the essentials and none of the non-

essentials. There, if there is less training than that, you can be sure that

an essential has been left out; or the opportunity of acquiring that training

has been left out.

In a program like that, that involves such a breadth of respon-

sibility, you can see how you can't mechanize a course of study; or even

hand teachers one book, or two books, or three books and have the pupil

better able to come out and think and live effectively today. There must be

some help {04' them.

It assumes a good deal of professional leadership, scholarly

leadership, who are specialists in their fields.

Our Sc ience teachers - - there is a great complaint throughout

the country we do not turn out enough people to take care of our scientific progress to fill our laboratories and keep us even going along at the rate we

152 a e ing. Gel' Clinly in Social Scienc you 1 \V we re not oing it.
Well, anyway, 'we have got to p ove ..he effectiveneoB of tach' g in our public schools, and I am aying th~t a smal amount of money ore than we are now spending can we an rofitably, and economically e spent in getting better results in teaching. in Sci nee and S cia studi s.
nd in all the oth r fields. Now we actually have, with this responsibility, have about six
people who devote heir time to wor ' g with people out in e State, with princip ls and supervisors, to improve the q aUty of what's going on,
I should call a tention here to the fact that of these ix objectives that ar l'sted, that vocational compe ency and econ mlc effici ncy is responsibility of a specific divi ion hich is weI organized an work. g consist ntly at the job and is getting result that are, 1 would sa , quite gratifying,
But I w 1 point to an the one h re, that indi ates we are not doing the whole ob. A school ro ram, if we had an adequat- program, would have a good s at in an att ctive room, good lightin a d sanitary facilitie 0 the be t kind for every child. We are saying that much progre
a been made in that di ectio recently du~ to the school-building progr m because the hool-building program does meet 0 many of those. It provides the seat. and the attractive surroundings, and the good heat an ligh. We have made a good deal of progress.
Of course 1 think it i 00 optimistic to say that we re achie ing 90,"0 in that area. but 90'10 of t e schools will have good physical fac'li lea w en you g t through with your building progra

53 In health serVlces; that is, examm"'ti n , foll . -up, advice to individuals as to what d fects they need to c rrect; is a service for which we depend upon the Health Departm nt and the departments in the counties. Actually, we havenVt g tten too far with it. What is d e is done entirely by the Stat Department of Health, a d the County Dep rtmenta of Health. We estimate that 42 counties are served by the Health Commission, and 147 ~ommunities have one or more Public Heal h nurses. You can see how that doesnBt guarantee a good rogram of hea th services; but when I try 0 estimate whether we are doing anythi g, or not, I say that that can be very well cons ide red as 250/0 efficie cy. The physical education and l'ecreatlon: It is estimate th t 250/0 of the chools have organized phys ica education programs for all, and not just for the team ; those playing two or three game of basketball a week-or one. Instruction in health and sa ety, teaching the facts and habits necessary for healthful living; it is estimated that 400/0 of t e school have organized instruction. They are trying to do the job of teaching the facts important for health, either through biology 0 through classe in health. 250/0 of them have classes in driver education, and a very small number of them so far -- 20/0 -- temperance education, and we have not yet been able to integrate it with the other, but a small beginning is in ~ffect; it is there. It has only been in effect a few years. T at is brought out as a fact, that probably in some of these other areas we will not stack up any better than that, and 't is important to know whe e we donBt stack up whether we ought to do more and make our plans so at least we are

154 trying to check on the effectiveness f i str ction.
I would say citize ship educa i n, ince a lot f it is environmental, is not so bad; bu as far as a specific attem t to teach effective human relations, and civic participatio , we have t g tte to far with that. I would say that proba ly the reasons for it - th re r several; more than ne -- that that kind of a job calls for individual instr ctiona, and the kind of schools we are running now, runnin up to 40, make it awfully hard, and only the rare teac er i expert enough to et t ings up in such a way that the pupi gets it.
Another, of cour e, i the fact t at there are in hat ber of
teachers we d, good many of them h ve had fo r years of t aining, and they have not absorbed 't all and ven't ass'mi ated it, and on t have
the skills. even if they do have the training. I wi I move on to the next ser ice that we t y to pedo m - - at
least what we are wor . g on. Another i that ew teache .s is a problem. At the present time we ave, I would say, we are turning out five to seven hundred teachers who could qualify for teaching on th 4-year level this year. Some of them won't teach. and it will turn out to be leas than that, and there is a big turn-over and is turn-ov r will be filled. That is, those who leave will be replaced by these five or six hundred trained people who are far s perior to what they would be if they were not trained for the job and merely depend d on 'heir scho a sh'p in g neral subjects; and by a great many loya citizens, mothers especially -- how many, we do not know -- moth rs who care about their communities, who 10 e their communities, and who, in that respect, have an asset that pu them above

o er as t~acher..

of them 0 h ve thi pre""e s' na tr ining.

They have raised a am'ly, or are raisin a family, and have retu ned to

th job, and they are very superior pe pIe.

Another group of people who are teaching because tl y can meet

the technical requirements, and who need the money, and they think i is

easy. It isnit but $5 a day.

MRo THRASHER: Mr. Chairman, that rings us to a point th t

I think we are all intereste in aome discussion on, is the qualu'cation 0

teachers. Mr. Lester, donUt you find D though, that in your basis of teaching~ that you have go e into a field of soc'al relations and luman re-

lations that really ought to be performed in the home? DonUt you find

from experience these dayo that you are pul ing the children away from the

home, rather than getting them closer to the home? This individual

thought that you are teaching, I 1ave run into several situations recenUy

where D through that method of teaching, the indiv'dual child haa been

taugh ind vidual thinking, but the have never been taught to cooperate

and work wit the others. hey try 0 stand ff as an individual in laYD

d 1 have found tha has been the result rece tly. They have been te ch-

hi individ al thinking and individual thought until you get a s u en

or child standing ou by themselves all alone. All the teachin comes out

of theteKtboo 8. Teachers can t possibly be qualified' home life, or

anything else. A lot 0 them havenVt even be n married, or anything else.

Yet they are teach' g subjec s which are gradually pulling the chi! dren

away from the ir home life 0

That gets to this point: At the presen time you have a system

56

of settL.'"lg up teache 3 eachin !!Ie.

Th t's 0 8+r ictly on the ba .8

of a certificate that they get from col ege; eitl er four yare of college. or

five years of college; 0 they ay have thre years 01' two y ars. Now

under yo r sea e of salarie after nine years' service of approve exper-

ience, that teache has reache the limit of their salary. It ooks like

that the IO-year period has rolled around. Doe n t the failure to provide

a. long-range teacher program and salary scale cauee this constant crisis

to arise when the majority of tIl. teachers get up to that limit? They can

visualize: They ave taught for ten years. I stay in for 20 years. what

do I have to look to? Isn't that w at is causin is constant cz:oisis, so to

speak, in the finances for school i8 the failure f their long-range pro-

gram?

MR. LESTER: I hin so.

MRo THRASHER: I would like to mention this: There is a lot

of wuest amongst the teaching profession, because they have taught a

great number of years -- 10 years. 15 years, 20 years' experience --

yet under the scale of salaries. even though they may be better qualified

than any young teacher coming out of college with five years, the $1950

is your limit. That's about all you can get with that two years of college,

even though it doesnat make any difference how experienced they are or

how good they are in ha dUng children. Under our salary scale that is

the limit. That utterly disregards the thing that we have l'ved with all

these years; that a person can gain by experience. In other words, there

is ~o recognition given. That teacher canSt move from that $1950 job up

to the $2850 job unless they have got a piece of paper from a college.

57

Yet that teacher could, of her own accord, pos ibly train~d themselves,

and through expe ience wo d be performing ju t as good w rk a a teacher

with a c rtificate.

You are also precluding from the teacher profession a great num-

her of teachers that are capable of teaching becau e of th t rule.

Why wouldn' it be much better to disregard that certu'cate

thing, as far as that goes, and set up a salary scale; say one that starts at

$2100, and give a service increase in salary on over -- it run on over to

say 25 0 0 30 years V service. Then provide that if a t~ c ler gives one year of service credit per every year in college. In other words, they would

fall within that category. 1 they have five years' service they would auto-

matically get two step-ups on their salary scale. As they get more exper-

ience ey would g on up it. Disregard as strictly a certificate basis of

fixing the salary. s 't the State Board of Education, or State Department

of Education formula ing some type of examination to let a person start in

school?

Suppose they started at $2100 and you could determine whether

they are qualified to begin teaching or not, and once they have started

.

teaching and get experience, and if they elect to go on and get this additional

'.

compensation by going to college and get a service rating, why wouldnUt a

think like that work out and atop this con tant crisis that we are faced with

ail the time about every ten years?

MR LESTER: A crisis you mean as to --

MRo THRASHER: Well, right now. They are formulating what

they call an adequate educational program. You and I know -- at least I

158 think 1 know -- that t e nly thOng that there is to -- that t is for is to raise this main lev 1 of te c e SU salaries. That's t..~e main reas n for it.
MRo LESTER: That's where most of the money goes. MR" T ASHER: That' 8 right. Now suppa e they set t at for ten years. We are going t be confronted in another te years ith that same thing ag in. I donUt know w at they wi I call it the c Su er-adequa e 1 reckon~ But wouldnt we have a better basis of operating our schools if we pu it on an examination of ability to teach, and let the other things flow in. and let a teacher know if she works 30 ye r she will be getting so muc every two years increase for satisfactory service. Now I donUt mean to just auto atically raOse them ii they don't develop and donOt make progress in their teaching bility. Couldn't something e wor ed out a ong that line, rather than thls con8tant uphe,-val of the school program; and then at the same time allow these teachers that have this experience to ome in and each? MR. LESTER: Well, in one respec 1 agree that we do not ecog ize experience suf idently. UR" 0 LINS: The only reason th Boar did that, though, was lac of 1unds.
R. LES ER: If they had mone to go on up 5 years. that length of time, that could have been done; and i was a compromise: Well, let's give it as long as we can. Instead of one year, two, thJ:'ee, five; lefis
tnake it 3, 6. 9, and I suppose there was some idea. there, if you could
keep them that 10 g, you have got them stuck. MR. THRASHER.: That is not the point! am getting at. The

159 point I am etting at, by your certifica~e bo.sis of qualified teache!"s you have precluded from the tea hing profession, and disc uraged from t e teaching profession, tho8e with e ~perience who have been teaching, ecaus you can9t pay them any money. In oth r wor s you have leaned towards the piece of paper, and college, rather than the hours of ex erience in the classroom.
MR o LESTER: I thO k it is a most difficult sort of thOng to -I don't think even the most scientifically 0 ganized professions do that. Engineers donSt do it that ay. They hardl ow how 0 do it. Doctors donSt do it that way.
MR. THRASHER: Wait a minute; they do. A doctor can have a sheepskin from a medical college but if that doctor oeanOt become profic ient and has the pati nce and attracts the people to him, e is governed. In other words, his personal ability after he gets that certifica.te is what governs that.
MR. LESTER: That's right; but they insist on him having the trai.ning, because there is no use in wasting time giving a.n examination if the people don't have the basic knowledge to do the thin
MR. THRASHER: The point I am getting at is -- eventually you might come to that, but havenSt you knocked out of the teaching profession, and are constantly discouraging those who re already in the teaching profession from continuing because of this limitation you have put on?
MR. LESTER: There are two very fine points in what you have said. I don't think they will save money. They are part of a developmental program that would get a better teaching profession. One is maybe the

60 new money you might g t ut of the ade a e education pr gra. would be spent' a different way, and give longer per iods of - - more recognition for exp rience.
MRo THRASHER: Why go through the agonies of wha you call an adequate program when, as a matter of fact all it is i --
MRo LESTER: -- i getting the money. MR. THRASHER: (C ntinu' g) -- is setting out a program which gives the t acher an opportunity to herself progres without saying: You have got to go get t t sheepskin from the University; or You ave ot to get it fro somewhere else? Now do you want to ay that a perso cal.:.'t develop n his own without a certif'cate? MRo LESTER: No; and that is the other point 1 w nted to m ntiona 1 reall believe tha teacher education will move in that direction; bu 't not -- 1 tell you, it doesn't come as easily as you suggest. In the irst place, giving an examination canlt give you -- it canOt give you &. ~ factors volved in a ood teacher. It can give you knowledge. K ed Col '8 the main thing they are tying to transmit. MR. HRASHE: All right, but if that teacher went to Mark Smith ?) at aeon, you could tell within ix mon hs whether thatteacher had appitude for teaching, could t you? MRo LESTER: That's right. The mo t potent, the next step that could b taken in teacher education has to be t ken y the colleges, and not by the State Department of Education, and sit up here like we us d to do -- 1 have given examinations in this oom to 50 or 60 or a hundred

61

people, back in t e old days when it 'a done bye>" ination, and they

passed, or failed, in terms of questions that I asked. or some college

helped me to get up to a.sk about what they consid red the equivalent of

a junior college; two years. We, in that way. admitted a great many

people to the profession. Some of them have since gone ahead and gotten

the 4-year program and are rated high. There is none of the group left,

though.

MRo THR.ASHER: What is the objection. from the educational

standpoint. of hav'ng teachers certified as a teacher su ject to certain

experience

e classroom and passed on by the local superintendents?

What is the objection to allowing them to go into the teaching rofeseion

and then put them on this scale of salaries where you tell them: ow. the

more you apply yourselves, the more money you can get. and you have the

same op ortunityas somebody who goes to school five years?

I would say that 90'0 of the people in this room today, if they had

been put under such restrictions as that as they were coming up through

life, possibly wouldnUt be where they are today. 1 they had to have a

sheepskin, or college, or something, before they could get a decent

salary.

MRo LESTER: But you mentioned a moment ago doctors. A doctor can't take a state examination until he gets his degree.

MRo THRASHER: A doctor is a different thing. In other wo de.

do you say t at a p rso c ming 0 t of hOg chool. who has a atural ap-

titude for teaching, w uldn't e qua ified. and wi h some expe ience and checking, teach second, third, and fourth grade?

162

Ro LE

: I woul nO' urn chi dren over to her f r a

ye r nd ay: ringh - - b in them back t m in un.

MR. THRAS R: No. I would say turn her 0 er t e super-

intendent for three months.

The pro lem as I see it, that is fac ing us too y, is utting the

salaries and the ba is of sa ari s strictly on the ba i of the t e of the

piece of paper you ho d. That doesnQt rna e teacher "

MRo LESTER: That is true, d t..ltat is wher I agreeing

ith you. That teachers must e made by the coll ges, That col egea

must be made to ow tb t en John oe pas es a coll ge course, h has

certain essential competencies, That that can be m rk d do

d th n

at the nd of four years, he has all that is necessa y. 0 even before four

year. if he has it, in line with what you aaid.

MR. THRASHER: Yo persona exp r'enc , is t 's? You

can get a person with a colleg education and if you attem t to wor h'm in

a business way, nine times out of ten you h ve got to bat aU of that college

education out of him and give him some practical experience. They have

had no practical experience wh n they come 0 t of c 1 gee

MRo LESTER: That isnet true in professional ed cation; no.

All of them have had three months of caref y supervised experie ce on

the job that proves they can handle it,

MR. THRASHER: That is not ealing with the p lie and dealin

with the individuals. They don't run into the problems, in a thing Ii that,

that they run into in normal life.

MRo LESTER: At least we are trying to ake it that in those

163 three months they h~ve othe' re .onsibilities. They work in a selec cd
ub ic school, under a perso lecte and trained to do that job; a..~d they have all of the experienc du ing that ree nt_ that a te cher has.
MRo THRASHER: Why can't you do that on the arne in? Wh can't you give a person an examinatio n the basis of boo learning, to teach~ and give them that same experience tha you give the ?
MRo LESTER: I say, that's in harmony with our idea. It is just a -- you a.re talking about -- in the first place the colleges train the teachers on the basis of a tradition that they have operated n for a thousan .... years. They organize curse; they give examinations that blVolve subject matter; and that is a matter of slow development; and it is' process.
In fact, on Friday of this week we have a committ e of the colleges in the State coming together to discuss the problem of what essential -- what abilities are essential for a teacher; and how can we use them to evaluate a person at any level who is not through; as a basis for determining what more he has to do, in tead of finishing the standar degree requirements.
MR o TIiRASHER: You are talking about on the college level, now. MR. LESTER: Yes, sir. MRo THRASHER: What I am getting at is the method that you have, is discouraging the teachers who have already had the experience. I mean, you are talking about after college. I am talking about the teachers that can teach in Georgia, that this system discourages, from the way we have it set up. MR. LESTER: I agree with you in theory. I .iust say that it is

164 o t f a manlmot 'ob, so that VIe could -- yes; tb e cou d w:lder ke through a pretty exp nsiv pro ram. 0 set e on what are th e e sential abilities. ~ e co d require all teach rs to ak it or g've t m an 0 p r~ity to take the examination. and rate them in erm of proven abilities in tho e field .
MRo THRASHER: You are talking about 58 or 6 million dollars for ed catio p and that 58 or 60 million dolla s could be utilized in putting in this program just as well a it could be utilized in piling on top of these certific te
MRo LESTER: I would like to have a little of that oney to try it; a little more than we have. We ve our staff --
MRo THRASHER: You mean 0 your staff. MR. LE TER: Yes, sir. They re the one who have to do it. You get coopera ion from other pe pie in s far as they ag ee with your point of view. MRo COO : Mr. Lester -- Mr. Chairlnan, I am confused and 1 believe some of the others might be, or 1 am stupid; one. I am confused as to whether we are talkin about admission or permits and licenses to teach school without having attended college at all, based on an examination iv n
17f. say, the Department of Educatio to determine 1hether this other or
this girl or this boy can teach. or is qualified to teach, without haVing college training, in rde to obtain that minimum alary on the Z-year certificate. Th' tis one proposition.
The other is that thatls what you wanted; more oney to pay for ervice time teaching, after they have once been licensed to teach, which

65
yo don't ha e now. MR. LESTE : It is suggested that woul ~ be v ry useful. MR. COOK: I would li e to cleal' u the two oi .t8 we are inter-
ested in. Are we interested in letting people teach Dcho I, g've th m a. license based on an examination without a certificate at all; that. r are we talking about more money, a higher bracket of salaries; and consl er in that salary scale the factor of time and experience in teaching?
MR. THRASHER: As we 1 as a college degree. MR 0 COOK: Which are we talking about? MRo THRASHER: Mr. Chairman, let me see if I can clear that up. There are two phases of it. Under the present system. the only way that a teacher can get a raise in compensation - - it doesn't make any difference how experienced she becomes -- is by etting a degree from the college. In other words, a 4-year college teacher can only get a raise in salary. or -- experience doesnDt count -- only if she goes to school and gets the fifth college year. In other words, you have got a basis. here. that the compensation of the teacher increases strictly on the piece of paper she holds from a college. rather than e"'-perience counting anything. MR. COOK: Well then, that clarifies it to this extent: What Mr. Thrasher is driving at would be not necessarily to eliminate your certificate idea, but to implement it. MR. THRASHER: That's correct. MR. COOK: By increasing the salaries in proportion to the years of experience in teaching. Thereforep it calls for more money. MRo LESTER: I agree with that in -- and I think it is very

166 imp rt nt.
MR. THRASHER: In other wor s, the th' g now is you are di couraging a great number of teachers, d a great number of teachers have left the profession, that -- how many would you say hav 1 ft the profe sion because they canUt rna e any progress under this system?
MR. LESTER: I donDt thin.'lt that's the main ca se of them leaving the profession. It's a cause of them not com' g into the profession to take training. But most of those who c e in, have ot er easons.
MR o THRASHER: In other rds, if you had a sa ry scale, me salary scale, where you would give a service credL for a year in ooUege, and at the same time they could g t their further service credit by experience, satisfact ry teaching experience; that would set up a scale that would go your lifetime, or rno e or less teachin l' eti e of the teachers?
MR. LESTER: I don8t think it would be right to subordinate training to casual experience, experience on the job. To say that John Doe, without any training, without any general education, can acquire by staying on the job and teaching over and over again every yea the breadth and insight, the knowledge of the world he lives in, he might acq,uire a good deal of ability in dealing with the child.
MR" THRASHER: Here is the point I am getting at, Mr. Lester. There is a tend ncy -- and I think you know of it -- of in-training. A school system out here will get a school teacher in and put her on a training program themselves. That don8t force them to go to the niversity, and it donUt force them to go anywhere else. But un er the system of our

167

alary sc Ie, here, he c......,....\.." g t any ben~fit 0- a sal y :ncr c.:. e rom th t

source of training; unle 8 he gets a certiii.c t. from a c llege.

In other words, you have a aystem where in-a vice training

can't count.

MR. LESTER: I think that could well be tied in with experLence,

but --

MRo STRICKLAND: Mr. Ch irman, wo d you a low e to a k:

What is your objective bout time, here, t i aft r oon? It look like

orne o! these fellow are getting a little tired.

LT. -GOV VANDIVER: Mr. Strickland, we were hoping we

could a journ by 5:00 oQ c oc. orne of the mem ers, of co r a v e

long way to go to return to their homes.

MR. STRICKLAND: You are getting into a discussio of ig er

education, there, between Dr. Lester and Mr. Thras e

MR. THRASHER: This is a question you wan"ed to sk me

questions about. What happene -- w at's happened to you?

MRo LESTER: I think the Regents do come into it, at one stag

of the game.

MR. COOK: On that point: we are talking about economy

measures; streamlining here. Perhaps the qualifying of teach rs on the

other, with this idea Mr. Thrasher has in mind, which I ioh we could put

into effect. Where would we be able to effectuate actual savin of money.

that we are seeking, endeavoring awfully hard to obtain?

LT0 -GOVo VANDIVER: I don't believe Mr. Thrasher had that in mind. I think he had in mind the avoiding of the recurring crisis which is

108 pree ipitated by th t.: t d (; iti 11.
R o COOK: Then are the Be 001 sy tern salaries ':omp-etitive with co oratio 9' sa ariee for like hour , and like services?
MRo LESTER: Not at all. Any time any corpora.tion wants a teaeherg they c g t them.
MR. TH AS ER: The id a was not suggested as n economy lD)ve, but he idea was suggested if it turns out. here, we have to put in $58 or $60 million dollars, letis get the best we can for the $58 or $60
illion dollars . DRo CO L S: Let' 8 get more ad cation for it. I ag ee with
that. MBo LESTER: I could advance one r two mo e points, he e.
Thatis w y, with orne addition 1 funds to employ experts - - and it takes experts to do the kind of thO g you are talking about. It d esn't t e th run-of-the-mill of us. We could ask questions, or write que tion in an examination -- and time of the personnel. You need enough of them. It might be possible to make some progress in the direction yOll are talking about, and it is very desirable, and worth trying.
But X was not going to ask for t at a time like '"his, when you are not interested in spending money --
MRo THRASHER: Weare interested in the event we have to spend more, or get more for the money.
MRo LE TER: I would like to fol ow that through. would hate to have just 15 minutes to do it ine though. I would lik to fol ow it through with you because 1 think you have suggested some very valuable points and

169 it is a direction in ;vhich we are mov' g, but ware stym'ed righ.t 1'l0W fo the reason that we don't have th at f do it.
MR. THRASHER: Let me as you this, Mr. Les er: Suppose it develops here that the State, someway, somehow, as got to p t $58 millio dollars more money in it, donUt you agree that if we do have to do that we ought to work out a permanent system?
MR" LESTER: I cert-inly MR. THRASHER: a er than hi haphazard one that -MR. LESTER: I think there re two things, though -- I don't know whether you can make it permanent, or not. You can't predict the birth rate. It is fast, and it wasn't fast 15 years o. MR. THRASHE : I don't mean as to per capita, but I mea.n as to the teaching profession, and things Uk that. Can't we get a moother operation ? MR. LESTER: either can you - - until you once tie it in wth the economic factors in other professions and competitio; ou can't do it. It ienQt really how much they are paid, but it is whether they have a standard relationship to other professions. Can we compete at all with other opportunities for service? MR. THRASHER: With the service that is being talked about here today of $58 million dollars, $60 million dollars, you could have from Z100 to $5400 as a salary ovel' that long period of time. It wouldn't average over $4800: maybe $4500. You would have ones going out one end and coming in the other end. And if we c~ accomplish t t, with the same amount of money that we are going to be faced with with drawing another

170 salary sea on top f tha on II why n t d it?
M e LE TER: It would ake quite a di ferent situation if we lad the mo ey that has been ask d for the a equate program of education. We could well afford to rearrange our alary scale.
MRo THRASHER: Do you know of anything 1 e t t U in this adequate program they re talking a out other tha primarily the upgrading of that salary?
MRo LESTER: NOli sir. hat 9s he main t ing 0 t ke the money.
MR. COOK: Is the 5811 000, 000, Mr. Lester II predicated on the present operatio in qualifying the teachers 9 salar eS Il and 0 fort ?
MRo LESTER: 0; it is pr dicated on a hi her s la .y. It is predicated on a salary that ha been adju8tedll as com ar d with the one
et up in 194611 which means considera ly more. It is e v ryLng dollar that the Americans have ot to face before you get anything adjusted.
LT -GOV. VANDIVER: Does the State Auditor care to discuss this idea of cost-of-living increase at th' 8 time?
MRo THRASHER: I think definitely, if there is ever anything worked out on this ll I think definitely that you are going to have to come to t e same basis that a lot of corporations have come tOil because you are going to have hills and valleys as long as you live; a d as the buying power improves, there also should be some adjustment. It al 0 can go th~ other way. A lot of corporations have gone into that, and that could be worked out if we ever get a permanent scale where a teacher would know
ere she is headed, and at the same time give the teacher credit for ex-

171 peri nc leather than just he h y h ve got - 1. ce hand. That could be brought into the picture at that time. If t is thing could be worked out.
MRo LESTER: It is a little complex, this matter of tying and equating these experience and study. They aren't the same thing. The years spent in concentrated study are worth more, in the long run, than ecperience; much more.
MR. THRASHER: That ma.y be true. They are stu ies; but can a lot of them get it out? I mean, they know it by the boo s --
MR. LESTER: I believe you are talking very idealistically. We would really have a teaching profession when we change over from training them by curses, to training them for the specific job of teaching.
MRo THRASHER: Well, are we turning them out to know Arithmetic, and Spelling, and what-not today, other than when we were in school?
MRo LESTER: We have turned them out. Those of them going through that are a8 smart as you are, know it.
MRo THRASHER: Yea; but where would I be, going through, if you had thi8 rule? I would still be a janitor. I didn't have a college educa-
tion.
MR o LESTER: It is like someone saying, according to your rules, the President of Harvard couldn8t teach in the grammar school. We 8ay thatBs right.
MRo THRASHER: I had that experience. It came up over in the Univers lty not long ago. A person who had had ten years 9 e>..-perience doing

11Z
the job couldri.'.. head up e Dep r" ent. They d to ha e 0 e wi h a Master's Degree.
MR. LESTER: There is a lot of hooey' it, ut it is sed on a lot of practical business. You canSt organize wi out some res, a d rule. pinch people.
MRo COOK: Mr. Chairman, I don't think we ou ht to discredit the ciJr'ricula of our colleges and univeraiti 8 today, As I understand, they are fashioned in a manner a person can sped lize i y iven Ii id. We have practical experience in Law School of trying people, and defe ding people, and we are supposed to come out with orne practical owledge of the law.
MR. LESTER: 1 think so. MRo THRASHER: I would l' e to make a oint there. You have got some good lawyers, and you have got some that ain't good lawyers~ MR. LESTER: Yes; and we have to have more. MRo CATES: Mr. Chairman, we have been doing a little research and slipped out a minute ago and looked over the clip ings and swnmary of last week's proceedings, and from what we have heard here today it would appear that the big four: That is, Education, Highways, Health, and Welfare; are going to require orne $100.000,000 additional financing, if we avoid this recurring crisis business that was discussed in the first meeting. The other side of our lightning calculations here i that if we granted. this Committ e endorsed and approved and recommended. and the Legislature granted the deduction of Fede al income tax, and if we

173 gra ted the 4% sal s tax, and if we ra te the increase f taxes of every one that has been suggested, we would c me up wit somethin. like $75 million doll rs in ad tional revenue, which would still leave us a $Z5 million dollar a year d ficit, if it were conceivable, and it isn t, that all of these taxes were to be granted.
My suggestion, as your parting kiss here this afternoon, is that we suggest to the Department of Education, which is coming hac next week, I believe, that they bear that thoug t in mind, because it seems to me like we are doing a lot of whistling in the dark, all the way acro s the oard, here, and 1 am satisfied that they want to be as realistic about is thing as we do, and it seems like maybe all of us are ju t gOing. to h ve to look - - start looking that cold fact in the face
And with that suggestion, sir, I move that we adjourn, as soon as possibly.
LTo -GOV VANDIVER: Thank you, sir. That's a very co ent observation; absolutely correct.
MR" HAWKINS: I move that this Committee do now adjourn until 10:00 o'clock next Wednesday morning.
LT. -GOVo VANDIVER: Mr. Hawkins moves that this Committee do now adjourn untillO:OO o'clock next Wednesday morning, which I bel ieve is the 16th of March.
MRo COOK: Second the motion. LTo -GOVo VANDIVER: The motion has been made and seconded that we adjourn until March 16th. Those who favor the motion say Aye.

74 Aye8 re s nded. LT0 -GOV. VANDIVER: Opp sed will 8 y No. (No response.) LT. -GOV. VANDIVER: 1 declare the motion carr'ed and it prevails. We are ad'ourned for the period of one week. (Thereupon an adjournment was had at 4:55 Po Mo)