LMS: Today is October 9, 2003. This is Luciana Spracher [LMS], project historian for the Benjamin
Van Clark Neighborhood Documentation Project of the City of Savannahs Department of
Cultural Affairs. I am speaking with Mrs. Lillian Spencer [LS], resident of Savannah, at her
private residence. Now Miss Spencer, our project is focusing on how the Benjamin Van Clark
Neighborhood has developed through the years, and how three themes have effected it that
we are focusing on. One is transportation and how the streetcars really built up the area, the
second is how the neighborhood has changed demographically and how desegregation may
have affected the neighborhood, and the third is what's going on with HOPE VI and the
revitalization and people fixing up homes today. So I want to start with a few background
questions and then I am going to ask you about some of these themes. Could you please
state your full name, including middle and maiden names?

LS: Lillian Brown Johnson Spencer.
LMS And Brown is your maiden name?

LS: Yes.
LMS: And Johnson would be from a previous marriage?

LS: First marriage yes.
LMS: Could you please state your birth date and place of birth?

LS: My place of birth is Beaufort, South Carolina, and July 17, 1925.
LMS: If your comfortable could you please state your current address, or you can do your block and
street?

LS: My address is 1510 East 32nd Street.
LMS: Now let me ask you when did you move to Savannah from Beaufort?

LS: Oh, as a baby. My father worked on the first bridge that was built from Beaufort to St. Helena
and my parents lived in Beaufort during the time he worked on that bridge, and that was when
I came about so that is why I was born in Beaufort. But I understand that I was about three
months old when they returned to Savannah.
LMS: So they were originally from Savannah?

LS: Yes. Not originally, but they had lived in Savannah, yes.
LMS: When they moved back to Savannah with you as a baby, where did you live?
Benjamin Van Clark Neighborhood Documentation Project
Neighborhood Oral History Project
Savannah Department of Cultural Affairs


LS: On Henry Street near the subway.
LMS: So, what would be the nearest cross street?

LS: East Broad and Henry.
LMS: What we would consider Eastside Neighborhood today?

LS: Today, Eastside Neighborhood?
LMS: I think that's what they call it, from East Broad . . .

LS: Yes back this way, to Skidaway, probably maybe.
LMS: How long did you live there?

LS: In that area, this side of East Broad, all my life just about.
LMS: At what point did you move from that particular spot to another . . .

LS: Okay, well, my earliest remembrance is being about four or five, we lived what would, what
was called at that time East Gwinnett Street, off of Waters, right east of Waters, we call it
Graydon Street now. But back then it was East Gwinnett.
LMS: They call it Graydon?

LS: They do call it Graydon Street now.
LMS: Okay.

LS: But it still to me is Gwinnett Street.
LMS: So how many years did you spend there?

LS: Well, I don't know how many years, but there were a few before we moved. But I was five
when we moved to Rockefeller Street, back of the ice house. And I can tell you about it over
there.
LMS: I would like you to.

LS: Okay, well when my earliest recollection there is, well, west, going west on Rockefeller Street,
you ran into what was called the Soldiers Lot, and when we first moved there there were
stables there that the Army kept cavalry horses out there, and that's how it got the name
Soldiers Lot.
LMS: Would that be the same thing that people refer to as Soldiers' Field?

LS: I don't know, we called it Soldiers' Lot, they may call it Soldiers' Field, but we just called it the
Soldiers' Lot, and I assumed that it was there because it was close to the railroad and they
could move the horses whenever you know. But that didn't stay there very long, when the
cavalry went out of the Army, when the cut that out, most of the [unintelligible], they abandoned
that lot. And then you'd have ball games out there. Used to have people up from the
neighborhood up there that would play ball and that was a neighborhood meeting place, out
there in the Soldier Lot.
LMS: When about did they start playing baseball, was it late twenties, early thirties?

LS: Oh, early thirties. They abandoned the cavalry stuff in the early thirties and they began to play
ball out there and they played ball out there into the late thirties or early forties.
LMS: Did you call, when it was used for baseball did it have a name?

LS: No, just it was a place they played, it didn't have any specific name.
LMS: Okay, why don't you tell me about the ice company?

LS: Oh, the ice house was in front of our house, and you used to go to the ice house, used to have
a little hook, you go over there and have to buy ten cent block of ice, most of us had ice boxes
back then, you go buy you a block of ice and put in your box. Sometimes, they had hundred
pounds, big blocks, hundred pounds maybe more, and they would score it so that it could be
cut into the smaller blocks, and they would allow you to come over there and get the shavings
and with the shavings make sno cones. It was that kind of thing. But they had trucks back
then, where you could go out and buy the ice from the trucks, kind of thing. It made the ice
there. It had a, we'd walk around the back where they had the water flowing into tanks and
whatever was needed to do to make the ice, it was quite busy at that time.
LMS: How did they keep the ice from melting after they had it?

LS: Oh, they had, they had places like refrigerated places where they kept the big blocks in, they
had.
LMS: How long would a ten cent block of ice last at home once you got it home?

LS: A couple of days, couple of days. You had an ice box, put it in the ice box, put a pan under the
ice box, that was it. And of course that was the first place that had electric lights.
LMS: In the neighborhood?

LS: Yes. Gwinnett Street we had lamps. Kerosene lamps, I still have mine, I keep it.
LMS: Who would you get the kerosene from?

LS: Oh, you could buy it at Wal-Mart.
LMS: I mean back then, did you . . .

LS: Oh, back then, you had a little can, you could go to some grocery stores, and they had the
thing that you turn the crank and your kerosene would come out. Or you could go to some
filling stations and buy the kerosene.
LMS: When did you get electricity?

LS: We, the first time I lived in a house with electricity it was 1930, when we moved to Rockefeller
Street, we moved there in August of 1930.
LMS: Okay, do you remember what the street address was?

LS: Yeah, 823.
LMS: Rockefeller?

LS: Rockefeller.
LMS: Is that house still there today?

LS: No, it's been replaced with Blackshear Homes.
LMS: Was your family living there when Blackshear Homes came?

LS: Well, I was, I had returned to Savannah, and I was living there.
LMS: What happened when they decided to move in?

LS: The house was not in that good condition, it needed repairs and anyway I guess the City
condemned it and they said you had to move and I just had to find a place to move to and they
did give some money for the house that I used to get this one.
LMS: Okay, so you moved from Rockefeller here to 32nd?

LS: Yes.
LMS: Tell me about that house, since we can't see it anymore?

LS: I thought I had pictures of it around here somewhere, I'll find them for you. But we had a front
porch, swing on the porch, we had, mama had flowers out in the yard, we had hedges along
the outside. It was considered a pretty good neighborhood, they were, all of the houses
nearly, most of them, were not rented, they were owned. We had a little bit of a front yard, we
had side walks, and I mean it was considered to be one of the best neighborhoods, a good
street to stay on anyway, a good place to live. And there was a wood yard, Mr. Porter had a
wood yard. And he used to have a mule and a wagon and he used to sell wood in the wagon
and you could get so many pieces of wood for a dollar and that kind of thing. His wood yard
was in the neighborhood.
LMS: On Rockefeller?

LS: Yes, yes. It was between the Ellis' home and the Skipper's. The people on the block were
pretty well off, 'cause the Edwards father worked as a railroad man and then there was the
Jenkins, he worked for Derst Bakery for years, and then Mr. Ellis was also a railroad fireman,
and they were the big shots.
LMS: Was it mostly white families or?

LS: Black folk, all black. Then the Skippers, he was a railroad porter. You know on the other side
there were, I can't remember their names, but I think he worked for the railroad, and then the
Drews lived there, and the next house [unintelligible]. The Ginsbergs had a grocery store on
the corner of Harmon and Rockefeller for years.
LMS: Would you shop there?

LS: Yes.
LMS: I was fortunate enough to interview one of the Ginsberg daughters who lived above there.

LS: The twins?
LMS: Yes.

LS: I remember when they were born.
LMS: Do you remember that?

LS: Umm-hmm.
LMS: I got her version of it being a family business, tell me about your experience shopping there?

LS: Oh, fine. It was a family business, we knew everybody in the neighborhood over there. We
could buy what we needed, they used to sell you, interested in the prices are you? Things
were different, you could go a get a bag and buy a dime's worth of sugar, you get five pounds
for a quarter, you get a little tray, we used to buy lard then, it wasn't shortening, you'd have a
little tray and you could get a nickel or dime's worth. They had butter, they had a dime stick of
butter, it was good butter, you could get nickel stick that wasn't that good. And I used love to
go over there and buy pickles, you know dill pickles, ooh I loved them?
LMS: Did they come in barrels?

LS: Yes, big barrels, and the pigs' feet, umm-hmm. And they used to have canned goods and
everything, it was well stocked. They would have fresh vegetables in season, you could get
onions and greens. You know it was just a general grocery store.
LMS: Were there any other grocery stores in the immediate neighborhood?

LS: There was Miss Bryant, Sonny Bryant was her son. I don't know if he is still alive, but she's
been gone for some time. But they were on the next street, they were on Joe and Harmon,
and they had a store back there. I don't remember who was first, but they were the two
grocery stores in that area. And their grocery store was not as light and airy as the Ginsbergs',
it was almost like a road . . .
LMS: Long and narrow?

LS: Long, umm-hmm, on that corner.
LMS: Were they a black family?

LS: They were white, too.
LMS: What other businesses were in the neighborhood?

LS: I don't remember, there was a black lady who had a little confectionary in the middle of the
block between, well they didnt call it Rockefeller Lane, they called it Joe Street and Rockefeller
Street, there was a little black business in there.
LMS: That is not a term we use today, could you explain what you mean by confectionary?

LS: Oh, that means that she only sold things like sweets, candies, cookies, sodas, that kind of
thing.
LMS: So, a popular place with the children?

LS: Yes.
LMS: Would, did you know anybody that worked at the ice house?

LS: I can't remember any names. I remember faces but I don't remember any names.
LMS: Were they coming from the neighborhood or were they coming from outside.

LS: Yeah, some of them came from the neighborhood, and some came from outside. There were
some who lived back there on Joe Street, Joe Street was like a lane but it was called a street.
And then the next street was, the lane was called White Street, the next street that was called
Joe Street. And there were young men who worked on the trucks from those places, but they
were like coming and going, there was one young man who worked there for years, I can
remember his face but I did not know that name. My mama was very protective of me and I
couldn't do much of anything, so I never really go to know them you know. There was a
church, it's still there, Bunn Memorial, it's still there, it's on the corner of Joe and Harmon. And
Reverend Bunn started that church and lived in the loft, he lived upstairs in the church.
LMS: Do you remember him?

LS: Umm-hmm. Yes, I do.
LMS: Is that were your family, did your family go to the Bunn Church?

LS: No, we didn't go there. We went to church down in the Fort, where Hitch Village is now. There
was a church, we called it the Fort back then because Hitch Village wasn't there. But we went
to Central Baptist Church down there, we walked there on Wheaton Street to go to church.
That was some good times. There was another church there on Wheaton Street, which is
located in Hamilton Court, near First Street now. When all of the urban renewal changed, they
had to move over, but they were located on Wheaton Street. Way back in the early years,
there was a little street that went down to where we called it the old field, there was open, just
an old field, after you passed Wheaton, about a block east of Wheaton Street the houses sort
of stopped, there was some streets, First, Second, Third, and that kind of thing, and the church
when I first knew it, I think must have been either Second or Third Street, but it was down in
the street and it was like being down in dark and that was Friendship, and there members
used to come from the Fort. But we used to go to the Fort and used to walk, we would walk
then, think nothing of walking, and you would walk and meet them and greet them, and it was
just a joy to do that. They going to their church and you going to your church, everybody knew
everybody. We still go to their church sometimes and they come to ours. So we still call that
fellowship, but it was nice, that kind of thing.
LMS: Where it was First, Second, Third, that's where Blackshear Homes is north of Wheaton, right?

LS: Yeah, [unintelligible]. Yeah, you know where the basketball court is? Where they play
basketball. That street down there, that building where that filling station is, it's been there, and
that was the First Street. There used to be a house down there, and then the next street up
there was where the church was and when they first they moved the church, the members
moved the church onto Wheaton Street, and it was on Wheaton Street when Blackshear
Homes came, and evidently they bought them out and they relocated over there. And many of
us had to relocate. I never could understand it. They took the houses on my street except for
two, there were two left, they did not tear down. I think they are still there, and I don't see why,
because one house that was next to us was a good house, it was a better house in my opinion
than some of the others, or the two that they left. But it was torn down. So what can you do.
Do you want to know about school? I went to Paulsen.
LMS: You went to Paulsen?

LS: Yeah, right around the corner.
LMS: That's the one that's not there anymore, right? Tell me about that school?

LS: It was, it was in a building that they said had either, had been a shirt factory, and we had two
doors and there were some good teachers there. Mr. Gadsden, some kin to Judge Gadsden,
was our principal. I can name the teachers for you.
LMS: Well, tell me who was your first teacher there that you remember?

LS: My first teacher was a Miss Gadsden, which was the daughter of the principal, but they didn't
keep me in her room for very long. I had been to kindergarten and so she pushed me on to
Miss Grissom's room, Miss Grissom was really my first teacher for any length. And then I went
to Miss Willies. Then I went to a, oh she was a Board, and then I went to Miss Board I went to
Miss Moore, I believe. I'm skipping somebody, but I think fifth grade was Miss Moore, and
there was a Miss Petty, who has long ago passed.
LMS: Where did you go after you graduated from Paulsen?

LS: I went to Cuyler, for seventh and eighth grade over there.
LMS: Do you remember when they tore Paulsen Street School down?

LS: While I was gone, they tore it down.
LMS: Okay, when did you leave Savannah and why?

LS: The 1940s.
LMS: Why did you leave?

LS: I remarried, cause my first husband died, the Johnson, see Otis is my son. You knew that?
LMS: Umm-hmm.

LS: And Paul, Paul's on your committee, the Cultural Affairs.
LMS: I don't work for them, they contracted me, so I don't know.

LS: Well, he's at, I don't know if its Cultural Affairs or Leisure Services, but he's connected
someway. But he works generally with WTOC. They were my kids.
LMS: They are your kids.

LS: Right.
LMS: So you were in Savannah until 1946, and when did you come back?

LS: 1975, it was 1975 cause I worked '75, '76, yeah, I think I came back in '75.
LMS: And went back to the same house that you had been living in?

LS: Yes.
LMS: And then how many years before you had to relocate?

LS: Very quickly, I've been here since '77.
LMS: Who lived in that house while you were gone?

LS: Oh, the children, Paul, oh, my mother lived there and they lived with her until she passed. And
Otis was in it when I came home, and we stayed there together. I had more kids while I was
gone and we stayed there, course then he got his home apartment, and I stayed there.
LMS: So it was in the family for a long time?

LS: Oh yes, it stayed there. It always in the family, since 1930.
LMS: Was it built in 1930, or bought?

LS: No, it was there, and during the Depression.
LMS: What was that like?

LS: Oh, it was rough at times, because I seen my mother, who was a very religious woman, get
down, I think, I don't know, [unintelligible], the man they bought it from would come out to
collect the money and they wouldn't have it, and I seen the man knock a nail into a for rent sign
up on the house and as soon as he get in his car and turn around, my mother would take it
down, go in the room and get on her knees and pray. And somehow or other we weathered it.
And then when President Roosevelt was elected they had instituted the homeowners loan
cooperative, which helped a lot of people, saved their homes, and that's what happened to us.
And then came the W.P.A., I remember when they had the lines where you go get flour and
potatoes, and of course my mother never wanted the flour, cause it was brown flour, too dark.
I also remember at Paulsen when the first hot lunches came, they had us some little tin
buckets for soup and rolls, oh that was the best soup, it be nice and hot. Before that I could
carry peanut butter sandwich, peanut butter sandwich, I thought I was going turn to peanut
butter.
LMS: You brought with you from home?

LS: Umm-hmm. I had a lunch bucket.
LMS: So your parents were finally able to purchase their house through the assistance. Do you
know when they finally owned the house fully?

LS: No, I don't know.
LMS: Do you remember the name of the man they bought it from?

LS: No, I don't remember, but there somebody who they had gotten a loan on it from or something,
he was a permanent man, his daughter is a lawyer, and she was a good divorce lawyer, cause
she'd fight for women, what was her name, I don't know. [unintelligible]. I don't think that house
was ever, well it did get in the clear when Paul stayed there, my son Paul, I think he paid it off.
Mama had died, Daddy too.
LMS: Let me ask you about your parents, what were their names?

LS: My father's name was Paul Lawrence Brown, he worked on the riverfront for Mr. Fitzgerald for
many years, as a pile driver. Do you know what that is?
LMS: Pretty much, yeah.

LS: Well, he worked down there, he worked for Mr. Fitzgerald for a very long time. And my
mother's name is Lillian, like mine is, and of course she did work at times, you know maid's
work, she worked in homes, she worked for a, there was a Miss Fox she worked for once, 
somebody, I remember Miss Fox cause that lady owned the house where the funeral home is
now over there on Drayton.
LMS: So you mother would go all the way over there to Forsyth Park?

LS: Oh yeah, we walked, when I got to seventh grade we walked across Forsyth Park, because
the school was over there on Henry near the cemetery, well the building's still there where it
was. We walked back and forth across that park everyday.
LMS: All the way almost to Laurel Grove?

LS: Umm-hmm.
LMS: Tell me a little bit about Wheaton Street, because it has changed a lot?

LS: Yes, Wheaton Street when we used to walk to church, there was a lumber yard down there.
And know where the railroad is? The lumber yard was right across the railroad from there and
then out there as I told you where the houses were, there was a field out there we used to call
that [unintelligible] field, and my daddy had a garden out there,
LMS: They called it Jones Old Field?

LS: That's what they used to call it.
LMS: Okay, and did your father pay somebody to use it, or would people just go out there and plant?
Is that where Spencer Elementary is now?

LS: Oh no, it's further down.
LMS: Further north?

LS: Yes, its across the railroad, you would have to, you would cross the railroad and go up there
like you were going where the project is, back up in there, that used to be open, and they had
what you called Tin City out there. Yes, honey they had those little tin houses that they
insulated them with newspapers and had these little stoves that would get red hot and it was
snug and warm in there. And people like my daddy would have their patches where they
would plant, that was in the back of the lumber yard. They had a drying thing there, where
they would cure lumber. It was a large, I think it was called Savannah Planning Mill.
LMS: Okay, do you remember a hosiery plant, factory, hosiery? Like pantyhose.

LS: No.
LMS: Do you remember what was on the land before Spencer Elementary School was built?

LS: Yes, I went to school there. The Marine Association on Bouhan Street, where Spencer is,
there was a building there, and our church association had a kindergarten there. And because
I've been researching that since I been home, and I would tell them I went to school there at
the Marine Academy, they called it. And people looked at me like I was stupid, and I said I'm
going to prove it, so I went over to the library and went to the city directory and the earliest
mention of it is in 1925, cause I plan to go get a copy of it now. Our planning session is
coming up [unintelligible]. The latest one I could fine was about 1935, so it must have been in
existence about ten years.
LMS: Ten years?


LS: And when the school went out of existence they turned the building into apartments. And
people lived in it, now when they tore that down I don't know. Evidently it was torn down
before the school came into being, because there were dwelling houses built over there on
that side of the street also. Cause one was there before when you come in before Wheaton
Street, but most of the houses down Bouhan have been there. Except for maybe the little
block one, the other houses have been there all the time, because those people in those
houses, I've known them most of my life. But the school was on the other side from the
homes. And there was a building there, and it was a kindergarten, and I don't know I guess it
may have gone to first grade, and it had two teachers. It was sponsored by a church
association, which is still in existence, called the Marine Baptist Association, they operated the
school.
LMS: Was the school brick or wood, the building?

LS: Oh, it was wood.
LMS: Wood. One story?

LS: Yes. [unintelligible]
LMS: Well, I'm glad that you talked about it, because Mr. White who lives on that road mentioned it.

LS: Cause I have sent messages to him, I was trying to see if I could find anyone with a picture of
the building that I could get. But I haven't found that yet.
LMS: Let me ask you about another, an orphanage that I found in the directory but I can't find any
information on. From the city directories I see that there was a Chatham Colored Orphans
Home on Wheaton Street on the south side of the street, does that ring a bell?

LS: No.
LMS: Can't think of any orphanages or anything like that?

LS: No. On Wheaton?
LMS: On Wheaton, but in that neighborhood, on the south side of Wheaton Street. And there was
also on Harmon Street something called Colored Orphans Work Home.

LS: No, I can't recollect that. I remember when there was a hospital, the hospital they moved to
Bull Street. It used to be on Harmon and Duffy.
LMS: Do you remember the name of it?

LS: Where the senior citizen center is, what was the name of it, I think it eventually evolved into
Candler, but it wasn't called Candler then.
LMS: Was it Oglethorpe Sanitarium?

LS: Yes.
LMS: Tell me about that building. Can you tell me about that building?

LS: Oh, it was a brick building, but we didn't go there then.
LMS: It was a white hospital? Where would you go if you needed medical attention?


LS: I went Georgia Infirmary or Charity. They made apartments in the building where Charity was,
and the infirmary was the first one you could go to.
LMS: Now Charity was on the west side of town, where was Georgia Infirmary?

LS: On Lincoln, Lincoln and 36th , between 36th and 35th
.
LMS: That was the closest one then?

LS: Yes.
LMS: Tell me some more about Wheaton Street and some of the other businesses.

LS: Along Wheaton Street, there really wasn't much that I can remember. There was a plumbing
company that had a window with the pretty bathtubs and things in, but I can't remember which
one it was, but it was a plumbing company there, where they are building this new building,
where the brick building was that came out of there, but it belonged at that time to a plumbing
company. I can't remember what was adjacent to the railroad, whether it was still the building
stuff or not, I don't know.
LMS: Do you remember any florists or greenhouses?

LS: No. I don't remember, I don't know what they kept in those warehouses, but there was a time
when they had slips from the railroad that box cars could go up in there.
LMS: Do you know where Rick's Glass is today? Rick's Glass?

LS: Yes.
LMS: Is that where the ice company was?

LS: No. The ice company was all on the other side of Harmon Street. They had not expanded to
the other side of Harmon Street at all.
LMS: So what was where Rick's is?

LS: Over there? Where Rick's is? Houses, row houses, all the way up from where Rick's is on up
to where Waters Avenue comes in there used to be two story and one story row houses.
LMS: Did they come down when Blackshear Homes came?

LS: Well, I think they were down, I don't know if, they came down before then I believe. I'm not for
sure about that. But I do know that when I came home I don't remember them. Cause
Blackshear Homes was not there either, but I don't remember that they were there.
LMS: Okay. Do you remember the streetcars?

LS: Yes, streetcar used to run down you know where Wheaton comes into Randolph. Wheaton
Street used to continue through where the houses are, and Randolph Street came into Liberty
Street, and the streetcar came up Randolph Street from President, turned onto Liberty and
went to East Broad, and of course, the cars ran up and down East Broad, cause there was an
intersection where Wheaton came into East Broad and Oglethorpe came over and met up,
and the street car used to go up East Broad. And the streetcar went down, had the one down,
came out Randolph and went down Liberty, get on the car on East Broad, that would take you,
then there were street cars went down Gwinnett Street, east and west. And the one on East
Broad Street, at that time it would go down Bolton Street, and the tracks were on Bolton Street, 

and that one went out to the Cottage, and to Bona Bella. And then of course the one on East
Broad continued out, I don't know how far, I don't remember, but I know it went past Gwinnett.
And then it went east and west on Gwinnett Street, and Habersham, it went around the parks
on Habersham. I don't know if Abercorn had street cars, but Habersham did. It was a joy to
ride the street cars. You could ride out to Bona Bella, on Sunday you'd go out there and the
man would turn the seats and you'd come back, and that was your outing for the day.
LMS: So they would just turn a crank and turn the seats around?

LS: No, the seats had backs that flipped over, and of course he had to pull the thing that rested on
the wire, where they got the electricity, when he got ready to go he had to pull one day and put
the other one up, and he would go up to the control on that end to control the car.
LMS: So he would move from front to back?

LS: Yes. The trolley wouldn't turn around, everybody on the trolley would?
LMS: How much would it cost you to say go to Bona Bella or downtown?

LS: About ten cents.
LMS: Ten cents?

LS: Yes.
LMS: What color were the street cars?

LS: I don't know, yellowish, maybe orange, sometimes green [unintelligible], some of them just
green with a little orange trim, or just yellow.
LMS: Do you remember the car barns that were on . . .

LS: Oh yes. Car barns right on Rockefeller Street. Yes, yes. That's why they came up and down
Gwinnett Street, cause that's where they went into the car barn, the car barn was right there on
Harmon and Gwinnett.
LMS: Did you know any people that worked there or that were conductors?

LS: No.
LMS: Let me ask you about another neighborhood. Further east on Wheaton Street, right before
you hit Truman Parkway, is a group of streets called Wagner and Adair and Henrietta. Do you
know anything about that neighborhood?

LS: No. The only person I know, the old lady who lived over there [unintelligible]. No, I didn't know
anything about that neighborhood, that was kind of out of my territory.
LMS: Okay, let me ask you, where you were living, what did you call that neighborhood, that area?

LS: What did you call it?
LMS: Yeah, I mean we call that whole area today Benjamin Van Clark, but really Benjamin Van
Clark has several smaller areas in it, Collinsville and the Meadows. Are you familiar with those
names?

LS: No.

LMS: No. Those are like Henry and Duffy Street. But I was trying to find out, if maybe getting closer
to Wheaton was called something.

LS: Not that I know of.
LMS: So, let's say you were at Cuyler going to school and someone asked you where you lived,
what would you say?

LS: Oh, I said Eastside.
LMS: Eastside, okay.

LS: You just said the Eastside. There was a running rivalry between Eastside and Westside.
[unintelligible]
LMS: How many brothers and sisters did you have growing up? Just you, okay. Did you play out,
did you have friends in the neighborhood that you played with?

LS: Yeah, I had Bill, not really, as I said my mother was a little bit protective. I had friends from
church. Now over there on Bouhan Street, where you talked to John, there's a Miss Sullivan in
that neighborhood, and she had a sister that lived over there. Then there was the Jacksons,
Ethel, she was a Brown back then. I played with them more than anything, and that was one
place Mama would let me go, but I had to be back home before the sun went down.
LMS: So you would go over there?

LS: Once and awhile they would come over my way, not many people came to us cause my
mama was kind of you know.
LMS: Strict?

LS: Yes, a little bit selfish. She wasn't real outgoing. I learned to be that way I guess cause I
married a preacher. I loved people, but my mama she didnt. She had quite a good friend,
lived over there what they called Sixth Street. They got to be friends because they lived with
her sister in Beaufort when they were staying over there. That was where she got me from,
somewhere.
LMS: Well, you have answered most of my questions. Is there anything you want to add about
growing up and living in that area?

LS: I wanted to tell you about the horses . Beyond the railroad tracks going round there, going
toward East Broad Street, umm-hmm, we didn't go, that was off limits. Now they have
[unintelligible]. There's nothing that much, just that the railroad company owned most of that
land, and we had little paths that we used to come home to Rockefeller Street. On the back of
the ice house what they called Flagler Street, you heard of that one? People used to
[unintelligible] down there. They were considered to be kind of rowdy. Called it down in the
Bottom.
LMS: More workers housing, laborers?

LS: Yeah, they were old houses, I had one good friend down there that I used to play with. Cause
you can't judge people by where they live all the time. [unintelligible]
LMS: Well could you say, maybe is there anything you could say about that area that's gone now,
where Blackshear Homes is, what was special about that neighborhood that made it unique?


LS: Well, [unintelligible]. At my age now, most of the people are gone that I knew back then. And
my generation is beginning to . . .